Secularism, Seperation Church/state

[OCA]

Can one of you secularists please document the successes of secularism for me? I've been racking my brains for about 3 days now and for the life of me I can't see anything but a downward societal spiral since religion and moral absolutes were removed from the classroom and the public arena throughout the 20th century.

I must be missing something.

[JohnDoe]

Can one of you secularists please document the successes of secularism for me? I've been racking my brains for about 3 days now and for the life of me I can't see anything but a downward societal spiral since religion and moral absolutes were removed from the classroom and the public arena throughout the 20th century.

I must be missing something.

the USA from its beginning is a perfect example of secularism working.

As far as it spiraling down hill, this can't be blamed on secularism, it can only be blamed on parents, the lack of good parenting, and the lacking in good citizenship, because they failed to pay attention to what their government was doing.

Also, many single parent homes, the LACK OF the Father in many households can attribute to the spiraling down....45 % of all babies are delivered to single mothers in our country. Men, are NOT standing up to their responsibility of fatherhood.

And many more women are working outside of the home, with latch key kids. Not as much supervision at home, not as much nuturing and rearing by example.

Taking an opening prayer out of the classroom did not cause all of the above, and ''the government'' did not cause it.

We as human beings have caused it, imo.

[Abbey Marie]

the USA from its beginning is a perfect example of secularism working.

As far as it spiraling down hill, this can't be blamed on secularism, it can only be blamed on parents, the lack of good parenting, and the lacking in good citizenship, because they failed to pay attention to what their government was doing.

Also, many single parent homes, the LACK OF the Father in many households can attribute to the spiraling down....45 % of all babies are delivered to single mothers in our country. Men, are NOT standing up to their responsibility of fatherhood.

And many more women are working outside of the home, with latch key kids. Not as much supervision at home, not as much nuturing and rearing by example.

Taking an opening prayer out of the classroom did not cause all of the above, and ''the government'' did not cause it.

We as human beings have caused it, imo.


And if these people followed biblical teachings, we would have none of these problems.

[manu1959]

the USA from its beginning is a perfect example of secularism working.



explain "in god we trust" on the money.....and....."endowed by our creator"

[JohnDoe]

And if these people followed biblical teachings, we would have none of these problems.

Yes, I believe this also Abbey, but they can't be forced by government to do such. It begins with their own foundations at home, and it begins with each individual's own free will, I think... ? This is one of those, what comes first? The chicken or the egg type of things in a way!

And to those of you that are Athiests out there, I am not cutting your own good parenting short! I believe, people, somehow inherently know right from wrong, they do not need the Bible to follow many of our Biblical teachings. They know they shouldn't cheat, they know they shouldn't kill, they know they shouldn't steal, they know they shouldn't lie, they know to respect their parents...and maybe this indirectly comes from a society filled with religious people? Whatever it is, I know they know it, because.....The Bible tells me so :)

[OCA]

the USA from its beginning is a perfect example of secularism working.

As far as it spiraling down hill, this can't be blamed on secularism, it can only be blamed on parents, the lack of good parenting, and the lacking in good citizenship, because they failed to pay attention to what their government was doing.

Also, many single parent homes, the LACK OF the Father in many households can attribute to the spiraling down....45 % of all babies are delivered to single mothers in our country. Men, are NOT standing up to their responsibility of fatherhood.

And many more women are working outside of the home, with latch key kids. Not as much supervision at home, not as much nuturing and rearing by example.

Taking an opening prayer out of the classroom did not cause all of the above, and ''the government'' did not cause it.

We as human beings have caused it, imo.

Thanks for mentioning all those things because the root cause of each is secularism and only secularism.

An opening prayer? Are you shitting me? I'm talking about teaching morality and ethics based upon the ten commandments etc. etc. besides the 3 r's.......I know, I know.......all those things that the ten commandments espouse are evil evil evil.

America from its beginning is a prime example of the failings of secularism.

[OCA]

I believe, people, somehow inherently know right from wrong, they do not need the Bible to follow many of our Biblical teachings.

Oh your naivete is absolutely precious!

Have you been paying attention to American society during your lifetime? Have you looked around? The majority of people know who was on American Idol better than they know right from wrong, hell I know a newly married kid who says that if his wife wants to go out and run around on him he's cool with that lol. He doesn't see anything wrong with being married and having more than 1 sex partner....and he ain't the only kid I know that thinks this!

Don't even get me started on clothing and shit either which is another symptom of a failed secular society with no moral rudder.

[Missileman]

Don't even get me started on clothing and shit either which is another symptom of a failed secular society with no moral rudder.

Yeah...let's break out the burqas! :rolleyes:

[Abbey Marie]

Yeah...let's break out the burqas! :rolleyes:

Yup, there are no choices between slutty clothing & burqas. :rolleyes:

[JohnDoe]

Thanks for mentioning all those things because the root cause of each is secularism and only secularism.

An opening prayer? Are you shitting me? I'm talking about teaching morality and ethics based upon the ten commandments etc. etc. besides the 3 r's.......I know, I know.......all those things that the ten commandments espouse are evil evil evil.

America from its beginning is a prime example of the failings of secularism.IF Secularism equates to our gift of ''free will'' from God, who can say it is wrong?

(I am just ''playing'' devil's advocate here...)




The first amendment, is by far, the best part of our bill of rights as far as I am concerned, and that gave us the FREEDOM to practice our religion with no government interference, in the public square. This was a blessing, not a curse!

Besides, if you think we are nearing the end times, as many Christians do, WHY would you want to be supportive of religion intermixing with the Government, when the World Wide corrupt Governments of the end times is what is spoken of as the Tool of the Beast of Revelation? Do you think the USA's government is exempt? I hope so, but I honestly don't know or even don't think so.

This is why I don't believe in faith based initiatives....not because I am not religious, because I am, but because I don't think that our Religious leaders should be associating, or befriending our Government in this day and age....

This will only come back to bite them in the butt imo because, I think these churches will become acustomed to the government money coming in, then one day the government is going to say to them that they will have to give up some of their own church values or church doctrine if they want to continue to get this money, and the churches may justify giving up their own doctrine in order to keep getting the money and they might do this by saying more children would starve if we did not get the gvts money...

It's just bad news all around.

But that was off topic I guess...

As far as teaching right from wrong? That should be done at home, then reinforced by schools, and our laws on the books.

I'm not very young, I had good public schooling many years ago, (but primarily on military bases in elementary school) and not once did I have a Bible class or sermon, in one of them, so I really don't know what has ''changed''?

My brother-in-law is homeschooling their kids, because he wanted more control over their education, but my nieces still have a social life filled with intermingling with other children of their own age.

-------------------------------------------------------------

[Missileman]

Yup, there are no choices between slutty clothing & burqas. :rolleyes:

For that religion, that's a true statement. Whose standards are we going to use here in the U.S. if we establish the fashion police? If we are going to use the bible as a fashion guide, what might the choices be?

[JohnDoe]

Oh your naivete is absolutely precious!

Have you been paying attention to American society during your lifetime? Have you looked around? The majority of people know who was on American Idol better than they know right from wrong, hell I know a newly married kid who says that if his wife wants to go out and run around on him he's cool with that lol. He doesn't see anything wrong with being married and having more than 1 sex partner....and he ain't the only kid I know that thinks this!

Don't even get me started on clothing and shit either which is another symptom of a failed secular society with no moral rudder.

But OCA, you seem to be blaming government for this, I am blaming people themselves, holding them responsible for themselves.

I don't know what has caused this ''falling away'' from the Church and its teachings, but I do know that a government entity didn't cause it, but we, the people did.

Are you telling me that parents that teach their children right from wrong, and teach them to be Christians, with a solid foundation at home, that because a ''school'' does not offer Bible study, they are going to be horrible, spiraling downward, children?

I don't think so.
----------------------------------------
I meant to research the passage, because I had mentioned it on another thread, but yes...PARAPHRASED, God said that He seered right from wrong in to human kind's hearts.... or something like this.... so it is not naive for me to believe such, and just watching humankind throughout the world, shows me such.

This does not negate free will, where we get to choose to do what is right or what is wrong.

[Abbey Marie]

For that religion, that's a true statement. Whose standards are we going to use here in the U.S. if we establish the fashion police? If we are going to use the bible as a fashion guide, what might the choices be?

I read OCA's post on which you based your burqa comment, and there is simply no way to extrapolate any of that from it. If you would like to change the topic to the relative merits of women dressing modestly, and establising fashion police, fine, but let's address the point already raised.

So, back to that post, can you explain how it is that you see no choices between dressing slutty, which OCA referenced, and wearing a burqa? Because I think the vast majority of us women wear clothes that fall between the two.

[OCA]

Yeah...let's break out the burqas! :rolleyes:

Can always count on Missile to be the voice of ridiculous extremes.:lame2:

[Missileman]

I read OCA's post on which you based your burqa comment, and there is simply no way to extrapolate any of that from it. If you would like to change the topic to the relative merits of women dressing modestly, and establising fashion police, fine, but let's address the point already raised.

So, back to that post, can you explain how it is that you see no choices between dressing slutty, which OCA referenced, and wearing a burqa? Because I think the vast majority of us women wear clothes that fall between the two.

Slutty based on what standard? The question is still there to be answered. There are already laws in place that cover (pun intended) indecent exposure.

[OCA]

But OCA, you seem to be blaming government for this, I am blaming people themselves, holding them responsible for themselves.

I don't know what has caused this ''falling away'' from the Church and its teachings, but I do know that a government entity didn't cause it, but we, the people did.

Are you telling me that parents that teach their children right from wrong, and teach them to be Christians, with a solid foundation at home, that because a ''school'' does not offer Bible study, they are going to be horrible, spiraling downward, children?

I don't think so.
----------------------------------------
I meant to research the passage, because I had mentioned it on another thread, but yes...PARAPHRASED, God said that He seered right from wrong in to human kind's hearts.... or something like this.... so it is not naive for me to believe such, and just watching humankind throughout the world, shows me such.

This does not negate free will, where we get to choose to do what is right or what is wrong.

Your fucking high. Kids, some, a small percentage in today's world, get taught good values and right from wrong at home but the majority have douchebag parents(yes, I believe Americans are 80% idiots and 20% bright) who don't teach them jackshit so then they go to school and they don't get shit there because heaven forbid we mention God or moral absolutes at school lest we irritate some moron at the ACLU.

So here we are, America the shithole.

[Missileman]

Can always count on Missile to be the voice of ridiculous extremes.:lame2:

Responding to your extremism in kind is all.

[Missileman]

because heaven forbid we mention God or moral absolutes at school

That's what church is for.

[OCA]

I read OCA's post on which you based your burqa comment, and there is simply no way to extrapolate any of that from it. If you would like to change the topic to the relative merits of women dressing modestly, and establising fashion police, fine, but let's address the point already raised.

So, back to that post, can you explain how it is that you see no choices between dressing slutty, which OCA referenced, and wearing a burqa? Because I think the vast majority of us women wear clothes that fall between the two.


Its not just slutty, honestly I love to see a woman in the little black dress with some 4 inch heels on, its the fucking douchebags(I just saw one 5 minutes ago, with his pant waist down around his knees and boxers hanging out or the guys who can't grow a beard but don't shave for weeks at a time and wear the ripped up pants and wrinkled shirts untucked. Its like for chrissakes, these idiots go to nice restaurants and places of respect looking like this, slanging pants, dumbass tattoos on their necks saying what a pimp they are and ears and other body parts pierced.

Do I want fashion police? No, I do want these people to know that they look like the hairs on my hairy Greek ass on a sweaty day instead of people just excusing it as an "expression of freedom".

Yes i'm saying that men should not wear earrings, apologies to any guys here who wear earrings but always my first thought is ''guy must be a pole smoker".

[OCA]

Responding to your extremism in kind is all.

Bullshit, if i'm extreme then so are tens of millions of other Americans who are fed up with the shithole this place is becoming.

Your post was simply ridiculous but i've come to expect that of you.

[LOki]

Can one of you secularists please document the successes of secularism for me? I've been racking my brains for about 3 days now and for the life of me I can't see anything but a downward societal spiral since religion and moral absolutes were removed from the classroom and the public arena throughout the 20th century.

I must be missing something.We're free to question and defy every superstition without worry that some government agency will find cause to punish us. We enjoy every benefit from such questioning and defiance.

Thanks to secular government we don't have to execute:
Everyone who works on Saturdy (or Sunday, if you're that kind of heretic)
Everyone who does not believe in the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims
Anyone who curses father or mother, regardless of what kind of loseres they might be
Everyone who commits adultery under the broad definitions set forth by supertitious dogmas
Everyone who is homosexual
Rebellious teenagers, particularly those who raid the fridge and liquor cabinet beyond the tolerances of their parents--seriously lots of stones for this one.(Just in case you're the type that should pull out a "new covenant", be reminded that Jesus is God, and God's laws are perfect, thus God's laws do not need to be changed; AND they're eternal, thus God's laws have not been changed. And probably more importantly, also be reminded that your particular religion does not have to be the one that becomes the state religion--consider the consequences of not being so terribly lucky.)

We don't have to submit ourselves to every authority instituted among men, including slavery.

If you're the girl who is not the virgin your father cliams you to be, before marriage, you don't get stoned to death.

We don't have to stone girls because their fathers are liars.

We don't have to belive our body parts cause sin.

We don't have to engage in self mutilation because we believe our body parts cause sin.

We can go to the doctor to get rid of an infection without worrying that we are being defiant of some god's will.

We don't have to believe in the boogey man.

We can support a guy who says the earth is not the center of the solar system, in fact the earth revolves around the sun.

We get to enjoy the fruits of every scientific inquiry that some religious zealot would deny because it questioned some holy decree pronounced from the "divine revelation" of some "inspired" tyrant.

The problem with your challenge OCA, is the faulty premise that religion (at least faith-based religion--we can dispute what religion is) provides, in any manner, an absolute basis for morality, and that secularism in any way guarantees, or claims, moral absolutes--secularism just allows for them.

[OCA]

That's what church is for.

Ok Missile, please document some of secularism's successes.

[Missileman]

Bullshit, if i'm extreme then so are tens of millions of other Americans who are fed up with the shithole this place is becoming.

Your post was simply ridiculous but i've come to expect that of you.

Any suggestion that we move from a democracy to a Christian theocracy is extreme. That you don't think it is, is the very reason reasonable people are fighting so hard to maintain the wall. I could give two shits if you think that a Christian theocracy might be somehow kinder and gentler than a Muslim one...given the time, they'd wind up twins.

[Missileman]

Ok Missile, please document some of secularism's successes.

Just as soon as you post the successes of the Middle East's great theocracies.

[JohnDoe]

Your fucking high. Kids, some, a small percentage in today's world, get taught good values and right from wrong at home but the majority have douchebag parents(yes, I believe Americans are 80% idiots and 20% bright) who don't teach them jackshit so then they go to school and they don't get shit there because heaven forbid we mention God or moral absolutes at school lest we irritate some moron at the ACLU.

So here we are, America the shithole.maybe your sentiments have something to do with where you live?

All I can say is that in the neighborhood that I just moved from, most of the moms on our street were ''stay at home moms'', worked part time at the most. Their school aged children were all well behaved children, our town public schools ranked number 1 in the county, and close to number 1 in the state...andknown for being a northeast liberal state. My town had 1 murder in the last 200 years of its existance....and ranked near the bottom on all crime statistics and well below the average of crime in the USA.

Girls did not go to school half naked.

Now, granted my street and town was filled with Church goers, only Liberals, and I can guarantee you that religion was not part of the school systems curriculum. Public schools are still good in that town, so again, maybe it depends on location or even population? My old town was only 7000 people, my new town now is maybe 2000 people and there are no delinquency problems here either?

[OCA]

maybe your sentiments have something to do with where you live?

All I can say is that in the neighborhood that I just moved from, most of the moms on our street were ''stay at home moms'', worked part time at the most. Their school aged children were all well behaved children, our town public schools ranked number 1 in the county, and close to number 1 in the state...andknown for being a northeast liberal state. My town had 1 murder in the last 200 years of its existance....and ranked near the bottom on all crime statistics and well below the average of crime in the USA.

Girls did not go to school half naked.

Now, granted my street and town was filled with Church goers, only Liberals, and I can guarantee you that religion was not part of the school systems curriculum. Public schools are still good in that town, so again, maybe it depends on location or even population? My old town was only 7000 people, my new town now is maybe 2000 people and there are no delinquency problems here either?

Horseshit, I live in Carroll County, Maryland now and it is a stout middle class heavily Republican area, its the assholes who move out here from Baltimore bringing their ghetto shit with them that infect the kids, well that and the media who tell them that looking like shit is cool.

[OCA]

We're free to question and defy every superstition without worry that some government agency will find cause to punish us. We enjoy every benefit from such questioning and defiance.

Thanks to secular government we don't have to execute:
Everyone who works on Saturdy (or Sunday, if you're that kind of heretic)
Everyone who does not believe in the God of Jews, Christians, and Muslims
Anyone who curses father or mother, regardless of what kind of loseres they might be
Everyone who commits adultery under the broad definitions set forth by supertitious dogmas
Everyone who is homosexual
Rebellious teenagers, particularly those who raid the fridge and liquor cabinet beyond the tolerances of their parents--seriously lots of stones for this one.(Just in case you're the type that should pull out a "new covenant", be reminded that Jesus is God, and God's laws are perfect, thus God's laws do not need to be changed; AND they're eternal, thus God's laws have not been changed. And probably more importantly, also be reminded that your particular religion does not have to be the one that becomes the state religion--consider the consequences of not being so terribly lucky.)

We don't have to submit ourselves to every authority instituted among men, including slavery.

If you're the girl who is not the virgin your father cliams you to be, before marriage, you don't get stoned to death.

We don't have to stone girls because their fathers are liars.

We don't have to belive our body parts cause sin.

We don't have to engage in self mutilation because we believe our body parts cause sin.

We can go to the doctor to get rid of an infection without worrying that we are being defiant of some god's will.

We don't have to believe in the boogey man.

We can support a guy who says the earth is not the center of the solar system, in fact the earth revolves around the sun.

We get to enjoy the fruits of every scientific inquiry that some religious zealot would deny because it questioned some holy decree pronounced from the "divine revelation" of some "inspired" tyrant.

The problem with your challenge OCA, is the faulty premise that religion (at least faith-based religion--we can dispute what religion is) provides, in any manner, an absolute basis for morality, and that secularism in any way guarantees, or claims, moral absolutes--secularism just allows for them.

Secularism has vreated a society where we murder unborn children without batting an eyelash.

Secularism has created a society where drug and alcohol abuse is rampant.

Secularism has created a society with extremely high divorce rates.

Secularism has created a society etc. etc. "put any societal ill here"

[LOki]

Secularism has vreated a society where we murder unborn children without batting an eyelash.Unfounded.


Secularism has created a society where drug and alcohol abuse is rampant.Unfounded.


Secularism has created a society with extremely high divorce rates.Unfounded.


Secularism has created a society etc. etc. "put any societal ill here" Unfounded.

An irrational desire to treat the unreal as real, has certainly caused all of the above. Where religions, and thus theocracies, have irrational desires inherent to them, one virtue of a secular state is that each individual is free to persue his own irrationality without someone-else's being forced upon them at gun point. Secuarism also has the distinct advantage of allowing an individual not NOT embrace irrational notions--something that the advocates for institutionalized faith can't claim.

[Pale Rider]

Its not just slutty, honestly I love to see a woman in the little black dress with some 4 inch heels on, its the fucking douchebags(I just saw one 5 minutes ago, with his pant waist down around his knees and boxers hanging out or the guys who can't grow a beard but don't shave for weeks at a time and wear the ripped up pants and wrinkled shirts untucked. Its like for chrissakes, these idiots go to nice restaurants and places of respect looking like this, slanging pants, dumbass tattoos on their necks saying what a pimp they are and ears and other body parts pierced.

Do I want fashion police? No, I do want these people to know that they look like the hairs on my hairy Greek ass on a sweaty day instead of people just excusing it as an "expression of freedom".
Three cheers for Washoe County, (Reno, Sparks, etc.), they passed a law that made it illegal to wear your pants down hanging off your ass with your little undies showing. If caught doing it, it's a $500 fine, the first time, and jail will follow for continued offenses.


Yes i'm saying that men should not wear earrings, apologies to any guys here who wear earrings but always my first thought is ''guy must be a pole smoker".
We agree again. I hate pierced shit. Ears on women is bad enough. But when it gets around to lips, eye brows, tongues, nipples, clits, etc., I HATE IT! I don't give a shit how hot you are, if you have steal hanging off your face, or somewhere else that it doesn't belong, get the fuck away from me. It looks like HELL.

[Pale Rider]

Unfounded.

Unfounded.

Unfounded.

Unfounded.

An irrational desire to treat the unreal as real, has certainly caused all of the above. Where religions, and thus theocracies, have irrational desires inherent to them, one virtue of a secular state is that each individual is free to persue his own irrationality without someone-else's being forced upon them at gun point. Secuarism also has the distinct advantage of allowing an individual not NOT embrace irrational notions--something that the advocates for institutionalized faith can't claim.

Founded.

Founded.

Founded.

and Founded.

Everything that OCA claimed is the truth.

A Preface to the Problem of Evil


Boston Catholic Journal ^ | January 2007
Posted on 01/14/2007 4:11:08 PM PST by NYer


No single factor is invoked more often in people turning away from God, or in their failing to believe in Him, than the occurrence --- note that I do not say "existence" --- of evil, especially as it manifests itself in suffering. The occurrence of evil appears incompatible with God, or at least a coherent conception of God as both (and simultaneously) absolutely good and absolutely powerful. That God and evil should coexist appears logically contradictory and ontologically inconsistent. The one is the abrogation of the other. The existence of God, it is argued, precludes the existence of evil and the existence of evil precludes the existence of God. While we can readily adduce empirical evidence, that is to say, tangible instances of evil to discredit the existence of God, the availability of evidence to corroborate the existence of God, on the other hand, is so exiguous that even when such instances are invoked they are deemed extraordinary events in the affairs of men, indeed, events so far from commonplace that we deem them miraculous, which is to say, inexplicable interventions conditionally attributed to God in the absence of explanations that may yet be forthcoming. Whether or not this is a sufficient, if concise, summary, the general implication is clear. The evidence of evil is far more overwhelming than the evidence of God. If preponderance is the criterion to which we appeal, God loses.

Evil comes as a scandal to the believer who asks, "How can this be, given the existence of God?"

To the disbeliever no such scandal arises, only scorn for the believer who is left in perplexity, unable to deny the existence of God on the one hand while equally unable to deny the occurrence of evil on the other.

How did we come to such a state of affairs? We appear to be consigned to either nihilistic resignation in the one camp, or an unreasoned and therefore untenable affirmation in the other --- so both are damned to perplexity.

Neither has satisfactorily answered the question implicit within every occurrence of evil: "Why?"

The sources and causes of disbelief are, of course, many, ranging from competing religious traditions with conflicting and contradictory conceptions of God, to the violence that has historically erupted between them, subsequently scandalizing the impulse of religion itself together with the notion of God --- at Whose behest, it is held, or at least in Whose name, atrocities distinctly religious in character were committed.

A more recent phenomenon to which we can appeal --- and with which we have become intimately acquainted --- is the rise of what we might call Militant Secularism. Secularism, however, is not the cause of disbelief as much as a response to it. But in this case we must in all honesty probe more deeply and ask why it is that secularism, this manifestation of disbelief, is making such deep inroads upon religion, especially the practice of religion.

Secularism, we must understand, is not a repudiation of the existence of God, but a programmatic dismissal of God (if such exists, and secularism neither affirms nor denies this existence) as legitimately pertaining to the public and even the private affairs of men. Secularism does not dispute the existence of God; it merely maintains Him to be either no longer relevant, or more troubling still, the very cause itself of much of the evil in the world as we increasingly witness ever escalating sectarian discord and violence in the name of religion, most notably --- and most violently --- in Islam. This phenomenon has caused us to re-examine our own religious antecedents in the history of Christianity.

It is important to understand, however, that in this process of reexamination a good deal of revisionism unquestionably occurs --- not unlike the sort practiced within erstwhile Communist societies which not so much politically sanitized history as programmatically distorted it to better accord with socialist ideals --- despite the exploitation of authenticity in the narrative. Entire histories were re-written, revised, expunged, and politically edited until an "acceptable" version emerged. We still see evidence of this in Communist China, no less than in the present drafting of the Constitution of the modern European Economic Union, both of which, albeit in different ways, attempt to expunge God in general and Christianity in particular from its historical antecedents. The result, of course, is not so much history as a disinterested chronicle of events, as it is an explication of events through the instrument of policy ...

Secularists have embarked on a similar venture, leafing through the annals of the history of Christianity with a careful eye to egregious defections from it (as every sin, every injustice, is not a manifestation of, but rather a defection from the teaching of Christ and the Church) emphasizing the abuses that occurred within the Church and the evils done by individuals and even nations spuriously invoking the name of the Church --- the Church which explicitly repudiates and vehemently denounces the political and social crimes committed in its name to the material ends of nations or the unbridled avarice of individuals. That there were clerics and even popes complicit with these enormities, is an indictment of the individual clerics, however many, but in no way an indictment of the Church from whose teachings and dogma they defected.

While eager to emphasize these defections from the Church, secular revisionists have been no less assiduous in programmatically expunging the inestimable good that Christianity has brought to the world --- and wrought within it. Pope Alexander VI, one of the Borgia Popes of the 15th century, notoriously corrupt, dissolute, and wicked by any standard is more likely to be invoked by secularists as an example of Catholic religious influence than Saint Francis of Assisi, together with, say, Tomás de Torquemada of the Spanish Inquisition rather than Mother Teresa of Calcutta. It is, in short, a carefully selective and meticulously culled history held to be paradigmatic of Catholicism and its overwhelmingly deleterious influence on the world. One of the more popular --- and perhaps prototypical --- examples cited is the lamented destruction of the native Aztec religion and culture by the Catholic Spanish conquistadors. That it was a religion and culture centered on human sacrifice upon a grand scale1 is, apparently, of no consequence to enlightened secularists --- and the Church which abolished this evil practice was guilty of a greater evil still, that of cultural imperialism, the supplanting of a native religion and culture centered on human sacrifice with a culture and religion centered on loving God and man. In reality, however, the secularist denounces both --- but on distinctly unequal terms: one for ritually exterminating life in the name of religion, the other for abolishing, in the name of religion, the culture that ritually exterminates life. That one is a religion of death and one a religion of life is immaterial. If the same glass can hold poison or water, break the glass ... and drink neither.

There is only one solution for the secularist: abolish God and you abolish both.

Such an approach is not without precedent. Marxism and Communism invoked the same solution to the problem of economic inequality. Belief in God and the exercise of religion were "the opiate of the masses" inasmuch as they inured man to his suffering rather than galvanizing the proletariat to revolt in a class conflict against the bourgeoisie. Inasmuch as God and religion were complicit in the suffering of the proletarian masses by proffering spiritual rewards in place of material incentives, both must be abolished as impediments to the realization of the Socialist ideal.

Criminalize God and you exonerate man. Lay the root of evil (in this case, the suffering of the proletariat) at the foot of God, proceed to abolish God, and you abolish the root of the evil.

Such a programme failed to work for Communist secularists ... and it will fail to work for other militant secularists as well, and It will fail to work for the same reason: God is not the cause of evil.

Our original question asked why secularism is making such deep inroads upon religion --- and succeeding. It is, at least in large part, because we have failed to coherently articulate the genesis of evil. We know the narrative, but we have failed to grasp the ineluctable implications. We have read, as from a primer, the account of the genesis of evil as though depicted in pastels that stir our imagination, the imagination of children --- and have failed to follow the sad but invincible logic inescapable within it. As Saint Paul tells us, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child."2

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1767610/posts

[LOki]

Founded.

Founded.

Founded.

and Founded.

Everything that OCA claimed is the truth.Fortunately for you, truth has less to do with verifiable facts, or rational argument, and more to do with what you believe is true--if you believe unsupported bullshit is true, then that's your truth. Congradualations for believing your own bullshit. :clap:


A Preface to the Problem of Evil


Boston Catholic Journal ^ | January 2007
Posted on 01/14/2007 4:11:08 PM PST by NYer
<blockquote>[Herein, Pale Rider posts in its entirety, a thoughtless argument that his own thoughtlessness could not craft on it's own.

It asserts one of the post patently transparent Straw-Man attacks upon what being secular is about, by asserting that "...a programmatic dismissal of God (if such exists, and secularism neither affirms nor denies this existence) as legitimately pertaining to the public and even the private affairs of men."

This is the Staw-Man leveled at those who excersise the right to dismiss all other gods in favor a God that is not the god of the anti-secularist. The critics of secularism think that because someone does not wish to have another's god forced (in particular the critic's god) into their "private and public affairs", that they then assert NO GOD has a legitimate role their "private and public affairs". Yet, anti-secularists, being theocrats of the first order, would be NEVER endorse the influence of any religion in government other than their own, and would most likely be the most voiciferous proponents of separating a religion other than their own from government.

The argument articulated in this thoughtless article, goes further to attack secularists by claiming that they focus upon every abuse on humanity made possible by the marriage of religion and state as an idictment of religion, and NOT an indictment of the marriage. They attack secularists for being overly selective in pointing only those opressive and tyrannical contributions to society where religion (Christianity for these particular theocrats at freerepublic.com and apparently Pale Rider) was married to government, but not all those other contributions religions have made. In this particular case, the authors make clear that secularism is not an attack on theocracy in general, but rather an attack on Christianity in particular. The authors lament that in an attempt at "revisionism" the secularist ignore all the good things Christians have done. Of course nothing is further from the truth. Christian secularists in particular extol the fine contributions of Christianity--too bad none of them were those contributions that had to be made at gun-point, and all the religious atrocities were.

They bemoan secularists pointing out the politically corrupt influence of Pope Alexander VI, and the terrorism of Tomás de Torquemada who were Judges, Juries, and Executioners in their time, firmly established politicians, with enourmous powers of government, and then accuse secularists of ignoring Mother Teresa of Calcutta, as if she was a political leader of anything, or had any governmental authority what-so-ever. Then, in this theocratic attempt at revisionism, the Christian theocrats making this argument deny that any of the atrocities that were committed by Christian Governments, in the name of Christianity, by Christian people, and celebrated in their time as acts endorsed by Christianity, are in fact Christian atrocites because in retrospect they are now uniformly understood to be divergent from the teachings of Christ. How convenient.

Then, typical of their monumental intellectual disingenuousity, they go right ahead and falsely accuse secularists of trying to destroy God, because secularists refuse to allow any god, including the god of their false accusers, including their own God, to be forced upon others at gun-point. They accuse secularists, whose aim is to allow everyone the right to their own religion, with Marxism which denies people a right to any religion other than that which glorifies the State, while ignoring their own proposal of the state established religion of the majority. They fabricate some Straw-Man relationship between secularists and Marxists, when it is more appropriate to illustrate the religious intolerance that their notions of government enforced religion, established my the majority, have in common with a political religion that deifies government.]</blockquote>
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1767610/postsYou should know, Pale Rider, that dumb articles are no less dumb, and no more authoritative, because you put their titles in big, bold, red letters. Arguments that are unsupported by evidence, or sound reasoning, remain unsupported, no matter how big, or how red you make the font. Arguments asserting patent bullshit remain patent bullshit despite your pretense they are otherwise if you make the points bold, or use colored fonts.

[glockmail]

Secularism has vreated a society where we murder unborn children without batting an eyelash.

Secularism has created a society where drug and alcohol abuse is rampant.

Secularism has created a society with extremely high divorce rates.

Secularism has created a society etc. etc. "put any societal ill here"

That pretty much nails it, I'd say.

[TheSage]

An opening prayer? Are you shitting me? I'm talking about teaching morality and ethics based upon the ten commandments etc. etc. besides the 3 r's.......


Don't forget to teach the honor of Omerta.

[OCA]

Don't forget to teach the honor of Omerta.

I would never do that because we know that rats are the highest form of life.

You are probably a little snitch bitch around the office...if you are still working and not back on the dole.

[TheSage]

I would never do that because we know that rats are the highest form of life.

You are probably a little snitch bitch around the office...if you are still working and not back on the dole.

I busted you on your rank hypocrisy.

[OCA]

I busted you on your rank hypocrisy.

Omerta is the height of standup in manhood, you don't get more respect than when you keep your mouth shut and not rat you friends out like a bitch.

Are you a bitch? Yes, i've been sure of that for over 3 years now.

[nevadamedic]

Don't forget to teach the honor of Omerta.

What does that have to do with anything?

[TheSage]

What does that have to do with anything?

OCA has repeatedly expressed admiration for the value system of the mafia. Now all the sudden he's mr. morality. It seems hypocritical, or at least, contradictory. See the relevance? If you still don't get it, i can go over it again. I'm patient.

[TheSage]

Omerta is the height of standup in manhood, you don't get more respect than when you keep your mouth shut and not rat you friends out like a bitch.

Are you a bitch? Yes, i've been sure of that for over 3 years now.

No, I don't. I Identify people who turn bitch on their own country and think it's noble, like you. It all depends on where your allegiances lie.

[Kathianne]

No, I don't. I Identify people who turn bitch on their own country and think it's noble, like you. It all depends on where your allegiances lie.

and your alligiances are where?

[OCA]

OCA has repeatedly expressed admiration for the value system of the mafia. Now all the sudden he's mr. morality. It seems hypocritical, or at least, contradictory. See the relevance? If you still don't get it, i can go over it again. I'm patient.

The value system of Cosa Nostra is moral, see? No hypocricy.

[OCA]

No, I don't. I Identify people who turn bitch on their own country and think it's noble, like you. It all depends on where your allegiances lie.

Who turned bitch on their own country? Tell me, i'll fuck him up.

[OCA]

and your alligiances are where?

Exactly. They are somewhere around Hayden Lakes, ID.

[TheSage]

Who turned bitch on their own country? Tell me, i'll fuck him up.

You, bitch.

[TheSage]

and your alligiances are where?


To the current people of america, having their furture sold out from under them by a greedy and anti-american elite. Where are yours? The republican party? How compeletely vacuous of you.

[TheSage]

The value system of Cosa Nostra is moral, see? No hypocricy.



You're criminally insane.