One Nation Under God

[Pale Rider]

One Nation Under God


Founders of America


By Kerby Anderson


Founders of America: Part One
G.K. Chesterton once said that "America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth with dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence."{1} We are going to document the origins of this country by looking at a book entitled One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America.{2}

The first thing every Christian should know is that "Christopher Columbus was motivated by his Christian faith to sail to the New World." One example of this can be found in his writings after he discovered this new land. He wrote, "Therefore let the king and queen, the princes and their most fortunate kingdoms, and all other countries of Christendom give thanks to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who has bestowed upon us so great a victory and gift. Let religious processions be solemnized; let sacred festivals be given; let the churches be covered with festive garlands. Let Christ rejoice on earth, as he rejoices in heaven, when he foresees coming to salvation so many souls of people hitherto lost."{3}

The second thing every Christian should know is "The Pilgrims clearly stated that they came to the New World to glorify God and to advance the Christian faith." It could easily be said that America began with the words, "In the name of God. Amen." Those were the first words of our nation's first self-governing document--the Mayflower Compact.

The Pilgrims were Bible-believers who refused to conform to the heretical state Church of England and eventually came to America. Their leader, William Bradford, said "A great hope and inward zeal they had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world; yea, though they should be but even as stepping stones unto others for the performing of so great a work."{4}

Many scholars believe that the initial agreement for self- government, found in the Mayflower Compact, became the cornerstone of the U.S. Constitution. This agreement for self-government, signed on November 11, 1620, created a new government in which they agreed to "covenant and combine" themselves together into a "Body Politick."

British historian Paul Johnson said, "It is an amazing document . . . . What was remarkable about this particular contract was that it was not between a servant and a master, or a people and a king, but between a group of like-minded individuals and each other, with God as a witness and symbolic co-signatory."{5}


Founders of America: Part Two
The third thing every Christian should know is "The Puritans created Bible-based commonwealths in order to practice a representative government that was modeled on their church covenants." Both the Pilgrims and the Puritans disagreed with many things about the Church of England in their day. But the Pilgrims felt that reforming the church was a hopeless endeavor. They were led to separate themselves from the official church and were often labeled "Separatists." The Puritans, on the other hand, wanted to reform the Church of England from within. They argued from within for purity of the church. Hence, the name Puritans.

At that time, there had been no written constitution in England. The British common law was a mostly oral tradition, articulated as necessary in various written court decisions. The Puritans determined to anchor their liberties on the written page, a tradition taken from the Bible. They created the Body of Liberties which were established on the belief that Christ's rule is not only given for the church, but also for the state. It contained principles found in the Bible, specifically ninety-eight separate protections of individual rights, including due process of law, trial by a jury of peers, and prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment.

The fourth thing every Christian should know is that "This nation was founded as a sanctuary for religious dissidents." Roger Williams questioned many of the Puritan laws in Massachusetts, especially the right of magistrates to punish Sabbath-breakers. After he left Massachusetts and founded Rhode Island, he became the first to formulate the concept of "separation of church and state" in America.

Williams said, "The civil magistrate may not intermeddle even to stop a church from apostasy and heresy."{6} In the 1643 charter for Rhode Island and in all its subsequent charters, Roger Williams established the idea that the state should not enforce religious opinion.

Another dissident was the Quaker William Penn. He was the main author of the founding governmental document for the land that came to be known as Pennsylvania. This document was called The Concessions, and dealt with not only government matters but was also concerned with social, philosophical, scientific, and political matters. By 1680, The Concessions had 150 signers, and in the Quaker spirit, this group effort provided for far-reaching liberties never before seen in Anglo-Saxon law.

Paul Johnson said that at the time of America's founding, Philadelphia was "the cultural capital of America." He also points out: "It can be argued, indeed, that Quaker Pennsylvania was the key state in American history. It was the last great flowering of Puritan political innovation, around its great city of brotherly love."{7}


Education and Religion in America
The fifth thing every Christian should know is that "The education of the settlers and founders of America was uniquely Christian and Bible-based." Education was very important to the founders of this country. One of the laws in Puritan New England was the Old Deluder Act. It was called that because it was intended to defeat Satan, the Old Deluder, who had used illiteracy in the Old World to keep people from reading the Word of God. The New England Primer was used to teach colonial children to read and included the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Creed, and the text of many hymns and prayers.

We can also see the importance of education in the rules of many of the first colleges. The Laws and Statutes of Harvard College in 1643 said: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life (John 17:3)."{8}

Yale College listed two requirements in its 1745 charter: "All scholars shall live religious, godly, and blameless lives according to the rules of God's Word, diligently reading the Holy Scriptures, the fountain of light and truth; and constantly attend upon all the duties of religion, both in public and secret."{9}

Reverend John Witherspoon was the only active minister who signed the Declaration of Independence. Constitutional scholar John Eidsmoe says, "John Witherspoon is best described as the man who shaped the men who shaped America. Although he did not attend the Constitutional Convention, his influence was multiplied many times over by those who spoke as well as by what was said."{10}

New Jersey elected John Witherspoon to the Continental Congress that drafted the Declaration of Independence. When Congress called for a national day of fasting and prayer on May 17, 1776, John Witherspoon was called upon to preach the sermon. His topic was "The Dominion of Providence over the Affairs of Men."

The sixth thing every Christian should know is that "A religious revival was the key factor in uniting the separate pre- Revolutionary War colonies."

Paul Johnson, author of A History of the American People, reports that the Great Awakening may have touched as many as three out of four American colonists.{11} He also points out that this Great Awakening "sounded the death-knell of British colonialism."{12}

As John Adams was to put it afterwards, "The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the mind and hearts of the people: and change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations."

Paul Johnson believes that "The Revolution could not have taken place without this religious background. The essential difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution is that the American Revolution, in its origins, was a religious event, whereas the French Revolution was an anti-religious event."{13}

Clergy and Biblical Christianity
The seventh thing every Christian should know is that "Many of the clergy in the American colonies, members of the Black Regiment, preached liberty." Much of this took place in so-called "Election Sermons" of Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Often the ministers spoke on the subject of civil government in a serious and instructive manner. The sermon was then printed so that every representative had a copy for himself, and so that every minister of the town could have a copy.

John Adams observed, "The Philadelphia ministers ‘thunder and lighten every Sabbath' against George III's despotism."{14} And in speaking of his native Virginia, Thomas Jefferson observed that "pulpit oratory ran like a shock of electricity through the whole colony."{15}

Some of the most influential preachers include John Witherspoon, Jonathan Mayhew, Samuel West, and Reverend John Peter Muhlenberg. Reverend Mayhew, for example, preached a message entitled "Concerning Unlimited Submission to the Higher Powers, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England." He said, "It is hoped that but few will think the subject of it an improper one to be discoursed on in the pulpit, under a notion that this is preaching politics, instead of Christ. However, to remove all prejudices of this sort, I beg it may be remembered that ‘all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.' Why, then, should not those parts of Scripture which related to civil government be examined and explained from the desk, as well as others?"{16}

The eighth thing every Christian should know is that "Biblical Christianity was the driving force behind the key leaders of the American Revolution."

In 1772, Samuel Adams created a "Committee of Correspondence" in Boston, in order to keep in touch with his fellow Americans up and down the coast. Historian George Bancroft called Sam Adams, "the last of the Puritans."{17} His biographer, John C. Miller, says that Samuel Adams cannot be understood without considering the lasting impact Whitefield's preaching at Harvard during the Great Awakening had on him.{18} Adams had been telling his countrymen for years that America had to take her stand against tyranny. He regarded individual freedom as "the law of the Creator" and a Christian right documented in the New Testament.{19} As the Declaration was being signed, Sam Adams said, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

The Founding Documents
The ninth thing every Christian should know is that "Christianity played a significant role in the development of our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence." For example, the Presbyterian Elders of North Carolina drafted the Mecklenburg Declaration in May 1775 under the direction of Elder Ephraim Brevard (a graduate of Princeton). One scholar says "In correcting his first draft of the Declaration it can be seen, in at least a few places, that Jefferson has erased the original words and inserted those which are first found in the Mecklenburg Declaration. No one can doubt that Jefferson had Brevard's resolutions before him when he was writing his immortal Declaration."{20}

The relationship between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is crucial. The Declaration is the "why" of American government, while the Constitution is the "how."

Another influence on the Declaration was George Mason's "Virginia Declaration of Rights." Notice how similar it sounds to the Declaration: "That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."

Paul Johnson says, "There is no question that the Declaration of Independence was, to those who signed it, a religious as well as secular act, and that the Revolutionary War had the approbation of divine providence. They had won it with God's blessing and afterwards, they drew up their framework of government with God's blessing, just as in the seventeenth century the colonists had drawn up their Compacts and Charters and Orders and Instruments, with God peering over their shoulders."{21}

The tenth thing every Christian should know is that "The Biblical understanding of the sinfulness of man was the guiding principle behind the United States Constitution." John Eidsmoe says, "Although Witherspoon derived the concept of separation of powers from other sources, such as Montesquieu, checks and balances seem to have been his own unique contribution to the foundation of U.S. Government."{22} He adds, "One thing is certain: the Christian religion, particularly Rev. Witherspoon's Calvinism, which emphasized the fallen nature of man, influenced Madison's view of law and government."{23}

Notes:
1. Gilbert K. Chesterton, What I Saw in America (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1922).
2. David C. Gibbs and Jerry Newcombe, One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America (Seminole, FL: Christian Law Association, 2003).
3. Christopher Columbus, Journal, 1492, quoted in Federer, United States Folder, Library of Classics.
4. William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation, 1620-1647, edited and updated by Samuel Eliot Morison (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2001), 25.
5. Paul Johnson, A History of the American People (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), 29-30.
6. George Bancroft, History of the United States of America, From the Discovery of the Continent (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1890), Vol. I, 250.
7. Johnson, 66.
8. Rules for Harvard University, 1643, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 176.
9. Regulations at Yale College, 1745, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 464.
10. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1987), 81.
11. Johnson, 115.
12. Ibid., 307.
13. Ibid., 116-117.
14. Derek Davis, "Jesus vs. the Watchmaker," Christian History, May 1996, 35.
15. Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, January 6, 1821.
16. Jonathan Mayhew, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England, 1749.
17. Bancroft, History, Vol. III, 77.
18. John C. Miller, Sam Adams: Pioneer in Propaganda (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1936/1960), 85, quoted in Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, 248.
19. Robert Flood, Men Who Shaped America (Chicago: Moody Press, 1976), 35-36.
20. N. S. McFetridge, Calvinism in History (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1882), 85-88.
21. Johnson, 204-205.
22. Eidsmoe, 89.
23. Ibid., 101.

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[Psychoblues]

If it looks like a double post, reads like a double post and is from an unimaginative jerk like pr it must be a double post. Dude, you just can't get it off your chest, can you? One Nation Under God. Ridiculous.

[glockmail]

..... One Nation Under God. Ridiculous. Read Exodus, dude. Check out where God describes the Promised Land to Moses. It ain't Jerusalem.

[Pale Rider]

If it looks like a double post, reads like a double post and is from an unimaginative jerk like pr it must be a double post. Dude, you just can't get it off your chest, can you? One Nation Under God. Ridiculous.

In other words... "stop posting your religious conservative pieces PR, you're taking away from the liberal garbage I post,".... yeah I got ya Pb... this is your attempt at the board "fairness doctrine" right?

Fuck off jerkwad.

[Hagbard Celine]

Cristóbal Colón was motivated by money, fame and power, not religion. Not to mention the fact that he served a foreign monarchy and had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of the US. He wasn't even the first European to discover the Americas. He was a Spanish merchant, nothing more. And he was a tyrannical, murderous megalomaniac to boot. A cuddly Christian he was not.

And whoever insinuated that the Americas are the "promised land" mentioned in Exodus needs to stop taking crazy pills. The Europeans who colonized the Americas committed genocide on a massive scale. Was that God's plan for the Jews? You're a retard.

Nothing will ever change the FACT that the US has always been a secular society. Not the Puritans or Cristóbal Colón or the Pilgrims or the Quakers. Some of the founders who signed and wrote the Constitution were Christians, but some were also Deists and Atheists. The political principals they based the Constitution on came from sources like John Locke, the philosophy of ancient Greece, the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, and the Mayflower Compact. The Bible doesn't come into play. The mention of "God" in the DOI and Constitution is indicative of the vernacular of the day, not that the founders meant the US to be a theocracy.

[glockmail]

..... Some of the founders who signed and wrote the Constitution were .....Atheists. ..... Who?

[Abbey Marie]

Cristóbal Colón was motivated by money, fame and power, not religion. Not to mention the fact that he served a foreign monarchy and had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of the US. He wasn't even the first European to discover the Americas. He was a Spanish merchant, nothing more. And he was a tyrannical, murderous megalomaniac to boot. A cuddly Christian he was not.

And whoever insinuated that the Americas are the "promised land" mentioned in Exodus needs to stop taking crazy pills. The Europeans who colonized the Americas committed genocide on a massive scale. Was that God's plan for the Jews? You're a retard.

Nothing will ever change the FACT that the US has always been a secular society. Not the Puritans or Cristóbal Colón or the Pilgrims or the Quakers. Some of the founders who signed and wrote the Constitution were Christians, but some were also Deists and Atheists. The political principals they based the Constitution on came from sources like John Locke, the philosophy of ancient Greece, the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, and the Mayflower Compact. The Bible doesn't come into play. The mention of "God" in the DOI and Constitution is indicative of the vernacular of the day, not that the founders meant the US to be a theocracy.


There is a huge difference between a nation founded on Christian principles, which ours was ("All men are "created" equal" , are "endowed by their Creator", "appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world", etc.), and a theocracy. I, for one, would never claim we were intended to be the latter. Quite the opposite, really. But the Christianphobics want to rewrite history by claiming the founding fathers weren't Christian, and did not favor and live and put forth Christian values and ideals. Perhaps someone can explain the rabid need to de-Christianize our country's beginnings?

[nevadamedic]

One Nation Under God


Founders of America


By Kerby Anderson


Founders of America: Part One
G.K. Chesterton once said that "America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth with dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence."{1} We are going to document the origins of this country by looking at a book entitled One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America.{2}

The first thing every Christian should know is that "Christopher Columbus was motivated by his Christian faith to sail to the New World." One example of this can be found in his writings after he discovered this new land. He wrote, "Therefore let the king and queen, the princes and their most fortunate kingdoms, and all other countries of Christendom give thanks to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who has bestowed upon us so great a victory and gift. Let religious processions be solemnized; let sacred festivals be given; let the churches be covered with festive garlands. Let Christ rejoice on earth, as he rejoices in heaven, when he foresees coming to salvation so many souls of people hitherto lost."{3}

The second thing every Christian should know is "The Pilgrims clearly stated that they came to the New World to glorify God and to advance the Christian faith." It could easily be said that America began with the words, "In the name of God. Amen." Those were the first words of our nation's first self-governing document--the Mayflower Compact.

The Pilgrims were Bible-believers who refused to conform to the heretical state Church of England and eventually came to America. Their leader, William Bradford, said "A great hope and inward zeal they had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world; yea, though they should be but even as stepping stones unto others for the performing of so great a work."{4}

Many scholars believe that the initial agreement for self- government, found in the Mayflower Compact, became the cornerstone of the U.S. Constitution. This agreement for self-government, signed on November 11, 1620, created a new government in which they agreed to "covenant and combine" themselves together into a "Body Politick."

British historian Paul Johnson said, "It is an amazing document . . . . What was remarkable about this particular contract was that it was not between a servant and a master, or a people and a king, but between a group of like-minded individuals and each other, with God as a witness and symbolic co-signatory."{5}


Founders of America: Part Two
The third thing every Christian should know is "The Puritans created Bible-based commonwealths in order to practice a representative government that was modeled on their church covenants." Both the Pilgrims and the Puritans disagreed with many things about the Church of England in their day. But the Pilgrims felt that reforming the church was a hopeless endeavor. They were led to separate themselves from the official church and were often labeled "Separatists." The Puritans, on the other hand, wanted to reform the Church of England from within. They argued from within for purity of the church. Hence, the name Puritans.

At that time, there had been no written constitution in England. The British common law was a mostly oral tradition, articulated as necessary in various written court decisions. The Puritans determined to anchor their liberties on the written page, a tradition taken from the Bible. They created the Body of Liberties which were established on the belief that Christ's rule is not only given for the church, but also for the state. It contained principles found in the Bible, specifically ninety-eight separate protections of individual rights, including due process of law, trial by a jury of peers, and prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment.

The fourth thing every Christian should know is that "This nation was founded as a sanctuary for religious dissidents." Roger Williams questioned many of the Puritan laws in Massachusetts, especially the right of magistrates to punish Sabbath-breakers. After he left Massachusetts and founded Rhode Island, he became the first to formulate the concept of "separation of church and state" in America.

Williams said, "The civil magistrate may not intermeddle even to stop a church from apostasy and heresy."{6} In the 1643 charter for Rhode Island and in all its subsequent charters, Roger Williams established the idea that the state should not enforce religious opinion.

Another dissident was the Quaker William Penn. He was the main author of the founding governmental document for the land that came to be known as Pennsylvania. This document was called The Concessions, and dealt with not only government matters but was also concerned with social, philosophical, scientific, and political matters. By 1680, The Concessions had 150 signers, and in the Quaker spirit, this group effort provided for far-reaching liberties never before seen in Anglo-Saxon law.

Paul Johnson said that at the time of America's founding, Philadelphia was "the cultural capital of America." He also points out: "It can be argued, indeed, that Quaker Pennsylvania was the key state in American history. It was the last great flowering of Puritan political innovation, around its great city of brotherly love."{7}


Education and Religion in America
The fifth thing every Christian should know is that "The education of the settlers and founders of America was uniquely Christian and Bible-based." Education was very important to the founders of this country. One of the laws in Puritan New England was the Old Deluder Act. It was called that because it was intended to defeat Satan, the Old Deluder, who had used illiteracy in the Old World to keep people from reading the Word of God. The New England Primer was used to teach colonial children to read and included the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Creed, and the text of many hymns and prayers.

We can also see the importance of education in the rules of many of the first colleges. The Laws and Statutes of Harvard College in 1643 said: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life (John 17:3)."{8}

Yale College listed two requirements in its 1745 charter: "All scholars shall live religious, godly, and blameless lives according to the rules of God's Word, diligently reading the Holy Scriptures, the fountain of light and truth; and constantly attend upon all the duties of religion, both in public and secret."{9}

Reverend John Witherspoon was the only active minister who signed the Declaration of Independence. Constitutional scholar John Eidsmoe says, "John Witherspoon is best described as the man who shaped the men who shaped America. Although he did not attend the Constitutional Convention, his influence was multiplied many times over by those who spoke as well as by what was said."{10}

New Jersey elected John Witherspoon to the Continental Congress that drafted the Declaration of Independence. When Congress called for a national day of fasting and prayer on May 17, 1776, John Witherspoon was called upon to preach the sermon. His topic was "The Dominion of Providence over the Affairs of Men."

The sixth thing every Christian should know is that "A religious revival was the key factor in uniting the separate pre- Revolutionary War colonies."

Paul Johnson, author of A History of the American People, reports that the Great Awakening may have touched as many as three out of four American colonists.{11} He also points out that this Great Awakening "sounded the death-knell of British colonialism."{12}

As John Adams was to put it afterwards, "The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the mind and hearts of the people: and change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations."

Paul Johnson believes that "The Revolution could not have taken place without this religious background. The essential difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution is that the American Revolution, in its origins, was a religious event, whereas the French Revolution was an anti-religious event."{13}

Clergy and Biblical Christianity
The seventh thing every Christian should know is that "Many of the clergy in the American colonies, members of the Black Regiment, preached liberty." Much of this took place in so-called "Election Sermons" of Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Often the ministers spoke on the subject of civil government in a serious and instructive manner. The sermon was then printed so that every representative had a copy for himself, and so that every minister of the town could have a copy.

John Adams observed, "The Philadelphia ministers ‘thunder and lighten every Sabbath' against George III's despotism."{14} And in speaking of his native Virginia, Thomas Jefferson observed that "pulpit oratory ran like a shock of electricity through the whole colony."{15}

Some of the most influential preachers include John Witherspoon, Jonathan Mayhew, Samuel West, and Reverend John Peter Muhlenberg. Reverend Mayhew, for example, preached a message entitled "Concerning Unlimited Submission to the Higher Powers, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England." He said, "It is hoped that but few will think the subject of it an improper one to be discoursed on in the pulpit, under a notion that this is preaching politics, instead of Christ. However, to remove all prejudices of this sort, I beg it may be remembered that ‘all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.' Why, then, should not those parts of Scripture which related to civil government be examined and explained from the desk, as well as others?"{16}

The eighth thing every Christian should know is that "Biblical Christianity was the driving force behind the key leaders of the American Revolution."

In 1772, Samuel Adams created a "Committee of Correspondence" in Boston, in order to keep in touch with his fellow Americans up and down the coast. Historian George Bancroft called Sam Adams, "the last of the Puritans."{17} His biographer, John C. Miller, says that Samuel Adams cannot be understood without considering the lasting impact Whitefield's preaching at Harvard during the Great Awakening had on him.{18} Adams had been telling his countrymen for years that America had to take her stand against tyranny. He regarded individual freedom as "the law of the Creator" and a Christian right documented in the New Testament.{19} As the Declaration was being signed, Sam Adams said, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

The Founding Documents
The ninth thing every Christian should know is that "Christianity played a significant role in the development of our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence." For example, the Presbyterian Elders of North Carolina drafted the Mecklenburg Declaration in May 1775 under the direction of Elder Ephraim Brevard (a graduate of Princeton). One scholar says "In correcting his first draft of the Declaration it can be seen, in at least a few places, that Jefferson has erased the original words and inserted those which are first found in the Mecklenburg Declaration. No one can doubt that Jefferson had Brevard's resolutions before him when he was writing his immortal Declaration."{20}

The relationship between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is crucial. The Declaration is the "why" of American government, while the Constitution is the "how."

Another influence on the Declaration was George Mason's "Virginia Declaration of Rights." Notice how similar it sounds to the Declaration: "That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."

Paul Johnson says, "There is no question that the Declaration of Independence was, to those who signed it, a religious as well as secular act, and that the Revolutionary War had the approbation of divine providence. They had won it with God's blessing and afterwards, they drew up their framework of government with God's blessing, just as in the seventeenth century the colonists had drawn up their Compacts and Charters and Orders and Instruments, with God peering over their shoulders."{21}

The tenth thing every Christian should know is that "The Biblical understanding of the sinfulness of man was the guiding principle behind the United States Constitution." John Eidsmoe says, "Although Witherspoon derived the concept of separation of powers from other sources, such as Montesquieu, checks and balances seem to have been his own unique contribution to the foundation of U.S. Government."{22} He adds, "One thing is certain: the Christian religion, particularly Rev. Witherspoon's Calvinism, which emphasized the fallen nature of man, influenced Madison's view of law and government."{23}

Notes:
1. Gilbert K. Chesterton, What I Saw in America (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1922).
2. David C. Gibbs and Jerry Newcombe, One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America (Seminole, FL: Christian Law Association, 2003).
3. Christopher Columbus, Journal, 1492, quoted in Federer, United States Folder, Library of Classics.
4. William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation, 1620-1647, edited and updated by Samuel Eliot Morison (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2001), 25.
5. Paul Johnson, A History of the American People (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), 29-30.
6. George Bancroft, History of the United States of America, From the Discovery of the Continent (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1890), Vol. I, 250.
7. Johnson, 66.
8. Rules for Harvard University, 1643, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 176.
9. Regulations at Yale College, 1745, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 464.
10. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1987), 81.
11. Johnson, 115.
12. Ibid., 307.
13. Ibid., 116-117.
14. Derek Davis, "Jesus vs. the Watchmaker," Christian History, May 1996, 35.
15. Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, January 6, 1821.
16. Jonathan Mayhew, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England, 1749.
17. Bancroft, History, Vol. III, 77.
18. John C. Miller, Sam Adams: Pioneer in Propaganda (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1936/1960), 85, quoted in Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, 248.
19. Robert Flood, Men Who Shaped America (Chicago: Moody Press, 1976), 35-36.
20. N. S. McFetridge, Calvinism in History (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1882), 85-88.
21. Johnson, 204-205.
22. Eidsmoe, 89.
23. Ibid., 101.

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Now it's On Nation Under Jesues(Mexican for Jesus.

[Pale Rider]

Now it's On Nation Under Jesues(Mexican for Jesus.

You sure know how to kill a thread... :laugh:

[nevadamedic]

You sure know how to kill a thread... :laugh:

:laugh2: :salute: :laugh2:

[Nuc]

Now it's On Nation Under Jesues(Mexican for Jesus.

Good point! And that raises another. Why are the same goons who think America should be a Christian theocracy against the flood of wonderful Catholic God Worshipping Christian Central Americans across our border? That should serve to dilute the power of the New York atheists and Cali new agers, but they're still whining about it.

[Pale Rider]

Good point! And that raises another. Why are the same goons who think America should be a Christian theocracy against the flood of wonderful Catholic God Worshipping Christian Central Americans across our border? That should serve to dilute the power of the New York atheists and Cali new agers, but they're still whining about it.

Because just like the blacks, they'll vote for the liberals even though it's the liberals that hate religion, just because it's the liberals promising them hand outs.

[glockmail]

Good point! And that raises another. Why are the same goons who think America should be a Christian theocracy against the flood of wonderful Catholic God Worshipping Christian Central Americans across our border? That should serve to dilute the power of the New York atheists and Cali new agers, but they're still whining about it.
Who are these people who think America should be a Christian theocracy?

[Nuc]

Who are these people who think America should be a Christian theocracy?

The people who make posts claiming that's what the FF's wanted.

[glockmail]

The people who make posts claiming that's what the FF's wanted.Who are they? I've never seen a post saying that.

I think you've created a straw man.

[Psychoblues]

Thanks for the neg reps dmp and pr. I distinctly noticed neither of you bothered to comment on board to the remark you so kindly disagreed with. You didn't comment to me either, but what a gas (fart) you are!!!!!!!!!!!

[Black Lance]

Thanks for the neg reps dmp and pr. I distinctly noticed neither of you bothered to comment on board to the remark you so kindly disagreed with. You didn't comment to me either, but what a gas (fart) you are!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, you didn't really do much more than state your opinion and insult Palerider. Isn't it kind of hard for them to argue with a statement of opinion?

Anyways, what do you disagree with about Palerider's opening post? I agree that America is not a theocracy, but Christianity has deeply influenced American society and government, and most of Pale's post strikes me as accurate.

[Gunny]

The people who make posts claiming that's what the FF's wanted.

Disagree. Stating that this Nation was founded by Christians; therefore, was founded as a Christian nation in NO WAY is advocating theocracy.

The vast majority of the FF's were Christians; yet, does the Constitution advocate theocracy? The opposite, in fact.

What is being addressed is the opposite extreme who absolutely refuse to admit the major role Christianity played in the creation of the US. It's like "if I pretend it isn't there, it doesn't count."

[Ruby]

I wonder why what the FF based it on, were motivated by, intended for the future of the country etc really matters at all. They are dead and the nation is for the living, its not their wishes, views or anything else that we should base our policies of today on.

We also founded this nation via genocide, should we preserve the idea of genocide being an acceptable thing to do to gain what we want?

We need to form policy, laws etc around what WORKS for the society living now and not worry that much over what long dead men intended.

[Dilloduck]

I wonder why what the FF based it on, were motivated by, intended for the future of the country etc really matters at all. They are dead and the nation is for the living, its not their wishes, views or anything else that we should base our policies of today on.

We also founded this nation via genocide, should we preserve the idea of genocide being an acceptable thing to do to gain what we want?

We need to form policy, laws etc around what WORKS for the society living now and not worry that much over what long dead men intended.

Great Idea, Ruby...... Let's hear those ideas flow---What do you think "works" for today.

[Ruby]

Great Idea, Ruby...... Let's hear those ideas flow---What do you think "works" for today.

A secular society that allows people to keep religion or lack of it their personal choice. We have various religions and not one should be favored over the other and they should all be free from intereferrence to practice their faith as long as they stay within the boundries of laws of the nation in which they reside.

An exclusionary society isnt going to work well and to favor one religion over another as a nation means we are exluding those who arent of that religion. Its the premise of many of our culturally held morals such as freedom of speech and not just for some, being against discrimination, civil rights etc. We have been making strides towards a more inclusive society so in todays world secular is the one that is inclusive.

[manu1959]

Cristóbal Colón was motivated by money, fame and power, not religion. Not to mention the fact that he served a foreign monarchy and had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of the US. He wasn't even the first European to discover the Americas. He was a Spanish merchant, nothing more. And he was a tyrannical, murderous megalomaniac to boot. A cuddly Christian he was not.

And whoever insinuated that the Americas are the "promised land" mentioned in Exodus needs to stop taking crazy pills. The Europeans who colonized the Americas committed genocide on a massive scale. Was that God's plan for the Jews? You're a retard.

Nothing will ever change the FACT that the US has always been a secular society. Not the Puritans or Cristóbal Colón or the Pilgrims or the Quakers. Some of the founders who signed and wrote the Constitution were Christians, but some were also Deists and Atheists. The political principals they based the Constitution on came from sources like John Locke, the philosophy of ancient Greece, the Magna Carta, the English Bill of Rights, and the Mayflower Compact. The Bible doesn't come into play. The mention of "God" in the DOI and Constitution is indicative of the vernacular of the day, not that the founders meant the US to be a theocracy.

every nation that exist committed genocide......

[Ruby]

every nation that exist committed genocide......

Thats not true. Most nations have had conflict or wars but not all nations have committed genocide. Sweden has not, Finland has not, Norway has not, Denmark has not just to name a few.

[Gunny]

I wonder why what the FF based it on, were motivated by, intended for the future of the country etc really matters at all. They are dead and the nation is for the living, its not their wishes, views or anything else that we should base our policies of today on.

We also founded this nation via genocide, should we preserve the idea of genocide being an acceptable thing to do to gain what we want?

We need to form policy, laws etc around what WORKS for the society living now and not worry that much over what long dead men intended.

Without intent/context, it leaves the door wide open for secular progressives to play their little dishonest games of literalism and/or relativism. Your statement would suit THEM just fine.

[manu1959]

Thats not true. Most nations have had conflict or wars but not all nations have committed genocide. Sweden has not, Finland has not, Norway has not, Denmark has not just to name a few.

really......

Swedish crusades into finland....viking invasions of English lands and slaughter of indigenous peoples...

google is a cool thing ...you should check it out

[Ruby]

Without intent/context, it leaves the door wide open for secular progressives to play their little dishonest games of literalism and/or relativism. Your statement would suit THEM just fine.

I really love all the terms that get created and then demonized, it all boils down to nothing more than a strawman argument built into a label.

We determine our own intent and context based on the realities of our lives, our needs and our desire to retain a society worth living in for our children and grandchildren.

No need for religion to be involved in the process, thats a personal belief you are free to apply in your personal life but has nothing to do with basing public laws or policy upon.


FOR MANU

Try googling the definition and criteria for genocide. It looks like this.

You seem to be confusing wars of conquest and colonization with genocide.


Genocide is foremost an international crime for which individuals, no matter how high in authority, may be indicted, tried, and punished by the International Criminal Court (ICC). According to Article 6 of the ICC Statute, This crime involves, "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:


(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

There are a number of things to note about these acts.


http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/GENOCIDE.ENCY.HTM

[LOki]

Without intent/context, it leaves the door wide open for secular progressives to play their little dishonest games of literalism and/or relativism. Your statement would suit THEM just fine.This is the LOLz.

When confronted with interpretations of our founding documents that are self-sufficient and free of external references or relationships (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/absolute), and assertions that adhere to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of terms or expressions (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/literal) in the founding documents of this nation, proponents of the "Christian Nation" assertion rely on relativist (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/relativist) interpretations of terms like "Their Creator" and "The God of Nature," to have "absolutey" meant Jesus, and invoke the relativist concept of "context", to prove so, while accusing their opponents of "relativism."

[Pale Rider]

IWe determine our own intent and context based on the realities of our lives, our needs and our desire to retain a society worth living in for our children and grandchildren.

No need for religion to be involved in the process, thats a personal belief you are free to apply in your personal life but has nothing to do with basing public laws or policy upon.

Can you show me one, just one, nation on this earth, that is still intact, that determined right from wrong completely on their own devoid of any religion?

Their isn't one. Man can not govern man by his own relativism. It doesn't work. Secularism is a wicked thing, and leads men down a road of self indulgence and corruption. Every secular nation there has ever been on earth, is no longer in existence.

[gabosaurus]

Separation of Church and State. That is all you have to say.
You rail at the Muslims for having a state religion, yet you endorse one yourself.
Sounds like you and the Muslims have a lot in common. Perhaps you should pray toward Washington five times a day.

[Black Lance]

This is the LOLz.

When confronted with interpretations of our founding documents that are self-sufficient and free of external references or relationships (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/absolute), and assertions that adhere to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of terms or expressions (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/literal) in the founding documents of this nation, proponents of the "Christian Nation" assertion rely on relativist (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/relativist) interpretations of terms like "Their Creator" and "The God of Nature," to have "absolutey" meant Jesus, and invoke the relativist concept of "context", to prove so, while accusing their opponents of "relativism."

I know, those idiots think that a document has to be read in its propert context. I wonder what's wrong with them?

[glockmail]

....
Sounds like you and the Muslims have a lot in common. Perhaps you should pray toward Washington five times a day. Actually is libs who pray to the government.

[PostmodernProphet]

The Liberal's Prayer....

Our Government, which art in Washington, hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, in the red states as it is in the blue states.
Give us this day our daily bread and circuses. And forgive us our taxes, as we have found others to tax before us.
And lead us not into frustration, but deliver us from disappointment.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, until the next time the Republicans capture both houses of Congress. Amen......

[bullypulpit]

"One nation under God..." It always begs the question of just which god.

[Gunny]

"One nation under God..." It always begs the question of just which god.

Mine. Who cares about yours?:poke:

[glockmail]

"One nation under God..." It always begs the question of just which god.
Read the Declaration of Independence, then its list of signers, then works by them. The answer will then be obvious to you.

"We have no King but Jesus!"

[April15]

Maybe this document can shed light on whether or not the US is a nation based on god! Check out bold sections.

Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary?

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor
of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved.
John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
Annals of Congress, 5th Congress

Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of
America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both
parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.

Art. 2. If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war, shall be
loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party, they shall pass free, and no attempt shall
be made to take or detain them.

Art. 3. If any citizens , subjects, or effects, belonging to either party, shall be found on board a
prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at
liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

Art. 4. Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be
known. And considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date
of this treaty, shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers,
belonging to such vessels, shall be sufficient for their protection.

Art. 5. A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel, condemned by the
other party, or by any other nation, the certificates of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a
sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a
proper passport.

Art. 6. Vessels of either party, putting into the ports of the other, and having need of provisions
or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put
in, from a disaster at sea, and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and
re-embark her cargo without paying any duties. But in case shall she be compelled to the land her
cargo.

Art. 7. Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance
shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the
disposition of the owners; and the crew protectedand succored till they can be sent to their
country.

Art. 8. If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy, within gun-shot of the forts
of the other , she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized
on or attacked, when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to
sea, no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port, within twenty-four hours after
her departure.

Art. 9. The commerce between the United States and Tripoli; the protection to be given to
merchants, masters of vessels, and seamen; the reciprocal right of the establishing Consuls in
each country; and the privileges, immunities, and jurisdiction, to be on the same footing with
those of the most favored nations respectively.

Art. 10. The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli, as a full and satisfactory
consideration on his part, and on the part of his subjects, for this treaty of perpetual peace and
friendship, are acknowledged to have been received by him previous to his signing the same,
according to a receipt which is hereto annexed, except such as part as is promised, on the part of
the United States, to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoli; of
which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no pretense of any periodical tribute of further
payments is ever to be made by either party.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on
the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or
tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility
against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious
opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[/B]

Art. 12. In case of any dispute, arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no
appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the
Consul, residing at the place where the dispute shall happen, shall not be able to settle the same,
an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers; the
parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he, by virtue of his signature to this treaty,
engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case, according to the true
interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the
same.

Signed and sealed at Tripoli of Barbary the 3d day of Junad in the year of the Hegira 1211—
corresponding with the 4th day of November, 1796, by

JUSSOF BASHAW MAHOMET, Bey.
MAMET, Treasurer.
AMET, Minister of Marine.
SOLIMAN KAYA.
GALIL, General of the Troops.
MAHOMET, Commander of the City.
AMET, Chamberlain.
ALLY, Chief of the Divan.
MAMET, Secretary.

Signed and sealed at Algiers, the 4th day of Argill, 1211—corresponding with the 3d day of
January, 1797, by

HASSAN BASHAW, Dey,

And by the agent Plenipotentiary of the United States of America,

JOEL BARLOW.

This being after the Constitution was ratified. Not during the Articles of Confederation.

[Dilloduck]

Maybe this document can shed light on whether or not the US is a nation based on god! Check out bold sections.

Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary?

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor
of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved.
John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
Annals of Congress, 5th Congress

Article 1. There is a firm and perpetual peace and friendship between the United States of
America and the Bey and subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary, made by the free consent of both
parties, and guarantied by the most potent Dey and Regency of Algiers.

Art. 2. If any goods belonging to any nation with which either of the parties is at war, shall be
loaded on board of vessels belonging to the other party, they shall pass free, and no attempt shall
be made to take or detain them.

Art. 3. If any citizens , subjects, or effects, belonging to either party, shall be found on board a
prize vessel taken from an enemy by the other party, such citizens or subjects shall be set at
liberty, and the effects restored to the owners.

Art. 4. Proper passports are to be given to all vessels of both parties, by which they are to be
known. And considering the distance between the two countries, eighteen months from the date
of this treaty, shall be allowed for procuring such passports. During this interval the other papers,
belonging to such vessels, shall be sufficient for their protection.

Art. 5. A citizen or subject of either party having bought a prize vessel, condemned by the
other party, or by any other nation, the certificates of condemnation and bill of sale shall be a
sufficient passport for such vessel for one year; this being a reasonable time for her to procure a
proper passport.

Art. 6. Vessels of either party, putting into the ports of the other, and having need of provisions
or other supplies, they shall be furnished at the market price. And if any such vessel shall so put
in, from a disaster at sea, and have occasion to repair, she shall be at liberty to land and
re-embark her cargo without paying any duties. But in case shall she be compelled to the land her
cargo.

Art. 7. Should a vessel of either party be cast on the shore of the other, all proper assistance
shall be given to her and her people; no pillage shall be allowed; the property shall remain at the
disposition of the owners; and the crew protectedand succored till they can be sent to their
country.

Art. 8. If a vessel of either party should be attacked by an enemy, within gun-shot of the forts
of the other , she shall be defended as much as possible. If she be in port she shall not be seized
on or attacked, when it is in the power of the other party to protect her. And when she proceeds to
sea, no enemy shall be allowed to pursue her from the same port, within twenty-four hours after
her departure.

Art. 9. The commerce between the United States and Tripoli; the protection to be given to
merchants, masters of vessels, and seamen; the reciprocal right of the establishing Consuls in
each country; and the privileges, immunities, and jurisdiction, to be on the same footing with
those of the most favored nations respectively.

Art. 10. The money and presents demanded by the Bey of Tripoli, as a full and satisfactory
consideration on his part, and on the part of his subjects, for this treaty of perpetual peace and
friendship, are acknowledged to have been received by him previous to his signing the same,
according to a receipt which is hereto annexed, except such as part as is promised, on the part of
the United States, to be delivered and paid by them on the arrival of their Consul in Tripoli; of
which part a note is likewise hereto annexed. And no pretense of any periodical tribute of further
payments is ever to be made by either party.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on
the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or
tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility
against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious
opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[/B]

Art. 12. In case of any dispute, arising from a violation of any of the articles of this treaty, no
appeal shall be made to arms; nor shall war be declared on any pretext whatever. But if the
Consul, residing at the place where the dispute shall happen, shall not be able to settle the same,
an amicable referrence shall be made to the mutual friend of the parties, the Dey of Algiers; the
parties hereby engaging to abide by his decision. And he, by virtue of his signature to this treaty,
engages for himself and successors to declare the justice of the case, according to the true
interpretation of the treaty, and to use all the means in his power to enforce the observance of the
same.

Signed and sealed at Tripoli of Barbary the 3d day of Junad in the year of the Hegira 1211—
corresponding with the 4th day of November, 1796, by

JUSSOF BASHAW MAHOMET, Bey.
MAMET, Treasurer.
AMET, Minister of Marine.
SOLIMAN KAYA.
GALIL, General of the Troops.
MAHOMET, Commander of the City.
AMET, Chamberlain.
ALLY, Chief of the Divan.
MAMET, Secretary.

Signed and sealed at Algiers, the 4th day of Argill, 1211—corresponding with the 3d day of
January, 1797, by

HASSAN BASHAW, Dey,

And by the agent Plenipotentiary of the United States of America,

JOEL BARLOW.

This being after the Constitution was ratified. Not during the Articles of Confederation.

The GOVERNMENT wasn't founded on religion. Is your claim that our government is our country ?

[Gunny]

The GOVERNMENT wasn't founded on religion. Is your claim that our government is our country ?

This again? :bang3:

[glockmail]

Maybe this document can shed light on whether or not the US is a nation based on god! Check out bold sections.

Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary?

Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor
of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved.
John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.
Annals of Congress, 5th Congress....
The Treaty of Tripoli was renegotiated in 1805 after the First Barbary War, at which time Article 11 was removed. :slap:

[LOki]

The Treaty of Tripoli was renegotiated in 1805 after the First Barbary War, at which time Article 11 was removed. :slap:Which changes nothing, since the issues involved in the 2nd Treaty were diferent than those of the first--it was a different treaty that in no way invlidated the first one.

[darin]

Which changes nothing, since the issues involved in the 2nd Treaty were diferent than those of the first--it was a different treaty that in no way invlidated the first one.

Why bump this three weeks later?

[LOki]

Why bump this three weeks later?I suppose it's never too late to make things right.

[April15]

The Liberal's Prayer....

Our Government, which art in Washington, hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, in the red states as it is in the blue states.
Give us this day our daily bread and circuses. And forgive us our taxes, as we have found others to tax before us.
And lead us not into frustration, but deliver us from disappointment.
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, until the next time the Republicans capture both houses of Congress. Amen......Sounds about right! Except for the red states part. They should be banished for failure to comingle.

[Yurt]

Sounds about right! Except for the red states part. They should be banished for failure to comingle.

Only someone who will is unwilling to "comingle" would say something like that. Why don't you mingle with them?

[April15]

The GOVERNMENT wasn't founded on religion. Is your claim that our government is our country ?It is the representative of the people! The people may be religious or not. The principle is that the government was not founded on religion but on past documents of governance. If you should read the Federalist papers or Catos you can understand how carefully the Constitution was crafted. Many parts were a compromise of views between Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, and others.

[glockmail]

Why bump this three weeks later?
Asshole just figgered no one would be paying attention.

[manu1959]

It is the representative of the people! The people may be religious or not. The principle is that the government was not founded on religion but on past documents of governance. If you should read the Federalist papers or Catos you can understand how carefully the Constitution was crafted. Many parts were a compromise of views between Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, and others.

that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, ......

what if the people want thier nation under God......

[bullypulpit]

One Nation Under God


Founders of America


By Kerby Anderson


Founders of America: Part One
G.K. Chesterton once said that "America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth with dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence."{1} We are going to document the origins of this country by looking at a book entitled One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America.{2}

The first thing every Christian should know is that "Christopher Columbus was motivated by his Christian faith to sail to the New World." One example of this can be found in his writings after he discovered this new land. He wrote, "Therefore let the king and queen, the princes and their most fortunate kingdoms, and all other countries of Christendom give thanks to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who has bestowed upon us so great a victory and gift. Let religious processions be solemnized; let sacred festivals be given; let the churches be covered with festive garlands. Let Christ rejoice on earth, as he rejoices in heaven, when he foresees coming to salvation so many souls of people hitherto lost."{3}

The second thing every Christian should know is "The Pilgrims clearly stated that they came to the New World to glorify God and to advance the Christian faith." It could easily be said that America began with the words, "In the name of God. Amen." Those were the first words of our nation's first self-governing document--the Mayflower Compact.

The Pilgrims were Bible-believers who refused to conform to the heretical state Church of England and eventually came to America. Their leader, William Bradford, said "A great hope and inward zeal they had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world; yea, though they should be but even as stepping stones unto others for the performing of so great a work."{4}

Many scholars believe that the initial agreement for self- government, found in the Mayflower Compact, became the cornerstone of the U.S. Constitution. This agreement for self-government, signed on November 11, 1620, created a new government in which they agreed to "covenant and combine" themselves together into a "Body Politick."

British historian Paul Johnson said, "It is an amazing document . . . . What was remarkable about this particular contract was that it was not between a servant and a master, or a people and a king, but between a group of like-minded individuals and each other, with God as a witness and symbolic co-signatory."{5}


Founders of America: Part Two
The third thing every Christian should know is "The Puritans created Bible-based commonwealths in order to practice a representative government that was modeled on their church covenants." Both the Pilgrims and the Puritans disagreed with many things about the Church of England in their day. But the Pilgrims felt that reforming the church was a hopeless endeavor. They were led to separate themselves from the official church and were often labeled "Separatists." The Puritans, on the other hand, wanted to reform the Church of England from within. They argued from within for purity of the church. Hence, the name Puritans.

At that time, there had been no written constitution in England. The British common law was a mostly oral tradition, articulated as necessary in various written court decisions. The Puritans determined to anchor their liberties on the written page, a tradition taken from the Bible. They created the Body of Liberties which were established on the belief that Christ's rule is not only given for the church, but also for the state. It contained principles found in the Bible, specifically ninety-eight separate protections of individual rights, including due process of law, trial by a jury of peers, and prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment.

The fourth thing every Christian should know is that "This nation was founded as a sanctuary for religious dissidents." Roger Williams questioned many of the Puritan laws in Massachusetts, especially the right of magistrates to punish Sabbath-breakers. After he left Massachusetts and founded Rhode Island, he became the first to formulate the concept of "separation of church and state" in America.

Williams said, "The civil magistrate may not intermeddle even to stop a church from apostasy and heresy."{6} In the 1643 charter for Rhode Island and in all its subsequent charters, Roger Williams established the idea that the state should not enforce religious opinion.

Another dissident was the Quaker William Penn. He was the main author of the founding governmental document for the land that came to be known as Pennsylvania. This document was called The Concessions, and dealt with not only government matters but was also concerned with social, philosophical, scientific, and political matters. By 1680, The Concessions had 150 signers, and in the Quaker spirit, this group effort provided for far-reaching liberties never before seen in Anglo-Saxon law.

Paul Johnson said that at the time of America's founding, Philadelphia was "the cultural capital of America." He also points out: "It can be argued, indeed, that Quaker Pennsylvania was the key state in American history. It was the last great flowering of Puritan political innovation, around its great city of brotherly love."{7}


Education and Religion in America
The fifth thing every Christian should know is that "The education of the settlers and founders of America was uniquely Christian and Bible-based." Education was very important to the founders of this country. One of the laws in Puritan New England was the Old Deluder Act. It was called that because it was intended to defeat Satan, the Old Deluder, who had used illiteracy in the Old World to keep people from reading the Word of God. The New England Primer was used to teach colonial children to read and included the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Creed, and the text of many hymns and prayers.

We can also see the importance of education in the rules of many of the first colleges. The Laws and Statutes of Harvard College in 1643 said: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life (John 17:3)."{8}

Yale College listed two requirements in its 1745 charter: "All scholars shall live religious, godly, and blameless lives according to the rules of God's Word, diligently reading the Holy Scriptures, the fountain of light and truth; and constantly attend upon all the duties of religion, both in public and secret."{9}

Reverend John Witherspoon was the only active minister who signed the Declaration of Independence. Constitutional scholar John Eidsmoe says, "John Witherspoon is best described as the man who shaped the men who shaped America. Although he did not attend the Constitutional Convention, his influence was multiplied many times over by those who spoke as well as by what was said."{10}

New Jersey elected John Witherspoon to the Continental Congress that drafted the Declaration of Independence. When Congress called for a national day of fasting and prayer on May 17, 1776, John Witherspoon was called upon to preach the sermon. His topic was "The Dominion of Providence over the Affairs of Men."

The sixth thing every Christian should know is that "A religious revival was the key factor in uniting the separate pre- Revolutionary War colonies."

Paul Johnson, author of A History of the American People, reports that the Great Awakening may have touched as many as three out of four American colonists.{11} He also points out that this Great Awakening "sounded the death-knell of British colonialism."{12}

As John Adams was to put it afterwards, "The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the mind and hearts of the people: and change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations."

Paul Johnson believes that "The Revolution could not have taken place without this religious background. The essential difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution is that the American Revolution, in its origins, was a religious event, whereas the French Revolution was an anti-religious event."{13}

Clergy and Biblical Christianity
The seventh thing every Christian should know is that "Many of the clergy in the American colonies, members of the Black Regiment, preached liberty." Much of this took place in so-called "Election Sermons" of Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Often the ministers spoke on the subject of civil government in a serious and instructive manner. The sermon was then printed so that every representative had a copy for himself, and so that every minister of the town could have a copy.

John Adams observed, "The Philadelphia ministers ‘thunder and lighten every Sabbath' against George III's despotism."{14} And in speaking of his native Virginia, Thomas Jefferson observed that "pulpit oratory ran like a shock of electricity through the whole colony."{15}

Some of the most influential preachers include John Witherspoon, Jonathan Mayhew, Samuel West, and Reverend John Peter Muhlenberg. Reverend Mayhew, for example, preached a message entitled "Concerning Unlimited Submission to the Higher Powers, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England." He said, "It is hoped that but few will think the subject of it an improper one to be discoursed on in the pulpit, under a notion that this is preaching politics, instead of Christ. However, to remove all prejudices of this sort, I beg it may be remembered that ‘all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.' Why, then, should not those parts of Scripture which related to civil government be examined and explained from the desk, as well as others?"{16}

The eighth thing every Christian should know is that "Biblical Christianity was the driving force behind the key leaders of the American Revolution."

In 1772, Samuel Adams created a "Committee of Correspondence" in Boston, in order to keep in touch with his fellow Americans up and down the coast. Historian George Bancroft called Sam Adams, "the last of the Puritans."{17} His biographer, John C. Miller, says that Samuel Adams cannot be understood without considering the lasting impact Whitefield's preaching at Harvard during the Great Awakening had on him.{18} Adams had been telling his countrymen for years that America had to take her stand against tyranny. He regarded individual freedom as "the law of the Creator" and a Christian right documented in the New Testament.{19} As the Declaration was being signed, Sam Adams said, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

The Founding Documents
The ninth thing every Christian should know is that "Christianity played a significant role in the development of our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence." For example, the Presbyterian Elders of North Carolina drafted the Mecklenburg Declaration in May 1775 under the direction of Elder Ephraim Brevard (a graduate of Princeton). One scholar says "In correcting his first draft of the Declaration it can be seen, in at least a few places, that Jefferson has erased the original words and inserted those which are first found in the Mecklenburg Declaration. No one can doubt that Jefferson had Brevard's resolutions before him when he was writing his immortal Declaration."{20}

The relationship between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is crucial. The Declaration is the "why" of American government, while the Constitution is the "how."

Another influence on the Declaration was George Mason's "Virginia Declaration of Rights." Notice how similar it sounds to the Declaration: "That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."

Paul Johnson says, "There is no question that the Declaration of Independence was, to those who signed it, a religious as well as secular act, and that the Revolutionary War had the approbation of divine providence. They had won it with God's blessing and afterwards, they drew up their framework of government with God's blessing, just as in the seventeenth century the colonists had drawn up their Compacts and Charters and Orders and Instruments, with God peering over their shoulders."{21}

The tenth thing every Christian should know is that "The Biblical understanding of the sinfulness of man was the guiding principle behind the United States Constitution." John Eidsmoe says, "Although Witherspoon derived the concept of separation of powers from other sources, such as Montesquieu, checks and balances seem to have been his own unique contribution to the foundation of U.S. Government."{22} He adds, "One thing is certain: the Christian religion, particularly Rev. Witherspoon's Calvinism, which emphasized the fallen nature of man, influenced Madison's view of law and government."{23}

Notes:
1. Gilbert K. Chesterton, What I Saw in America (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1922).
2. David C. Gibbs and Jerry Newcombe, One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America (Seminole, FL: Christian Law Association, 2003).
3. Christopher Columbus, Journal, 1492, quoted in Federer, United States Folder, Library of Classics.
4. William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation, 1620-1647, edited and updated by Samuel Eliot Morison (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2001), 25.
5. Paul Johnson, A History of the American People (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), 29-30.
6. George Bancroft, History of the United States of America, From the Discovery of the Continent (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1890), Vol. I, 250.
7. Johnson, 66.
8. Rules for Harvard University, 1643, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 176.
9. Regulations at Yale College, 1745, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 464.
10. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1987), 81.
11. Johnson, 115.
12. Ibid., 307.
13. Ibid., 116-117.
14. Derek Davis, "Jesus vs. the Watchmaker," Christian History, May 1996, 35.
15. Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, January 6, 1821.
16. Jonathan Mayhew, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England, 1749.
17. Bancroft, History, Vol. III, 77.
18. John C. Miller, Sam Adams: Pioneer in Propaganda (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1936/1960), 85, quoted in Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, 248.
19. Robert Flood, Men Who Shaped America (Chicago: Moody Press, 1976), 35-36.
20. N. S. McFetridge, Calvinism in History (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1882), 85-88.
21. Johnson, 204-205.
22. Eidsmoe, 89.
23. Ibid., 101.

http://www.pointofview.net/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID320166%7CCHID634376%7CCIID2048122,00.html

I thought we were only supposed to post a brief excerpt from an article with a link to the article to avoid issues of copyright infringement. But more to the point, "God" nor "Christ" nor "Christian" are mentioned in neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution.

[bullypulpit]

One Nation Under God


Founders of America


By Kerby Anderson


Founders of America: Part One
G.K. Chesterton once said that "America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed. That creed is set forth with dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence."{1} We are going to document the origins of this country by looking at a book entitled One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America.{2}

The first thing every Christian should know is that "Christopher Columbus was motivated by his Christian faith to sail to the New World." One example of this can be found in his writings after he discovered this new land. He wrote, "Therefore let the king and queen, the princes and their most fortunate kingdoms, and all other countries of Christendom give thanks to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who has bestowed upon us so great a victory and gift. Let religious processions be solemnized; let sacred festivals be given; let the churches be covered with festive garlands. Let Christ rejoice on earth, as he rejoices in heaven, when he foresees coming to salvation so many souls of people hitherto lost."{3}

The second thing every Christian should know is "The Pilgrims clearly stated that they came to the New World to glorify God and to advance the Christian faith." It could easily be said that America began with the words, "In the name of God. Amen." Those were the first words of our nation's first self-governing document--the Mayflower Compact.

The Pilgrims were Bible-believers who refused to conform to the heretical state Church of England and eventually came to America. Their leader, William Bradford, said "A great hope and inward zeal they had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world; yea, though they should be but even as stepping stones unto others for the performing of so great a work."{4}

Many scholars believe that the initial agreement for self- government, found in the Mayflower Compact, became the cornerstone of the U.S. Constitution. This agreement for self-government, signed on November 11, 1620, created a new government in which they agreed to "covenant and combine" themselves together into a "Body Politick."

British historian Paul Johnson said, "It is an amazing document . . . . What was remarkable about this particular contract was that it was not between a servant and a master, or a people and a king, but between a group of like-minded individuals and each other, with God as a witness and symbolic co-signatory."{5}


Founders of America: Part Two
The third thing every Christian should know is "The Puritans created Bible-based commonwealths in order to practice a representative government that was modeled on their church covenants." Both the Pilgrims and the Puritans disagreed with many things about the Church of England in their day. But the Pilgrims felt that reforming the church was a hopeless endeavor. They were led to separate themselves from the official church and were often labeled "Separatists." The Puritans, on the other hand, wanted to reform the Church of England from within. They argued from within for purity of the church. Hence, the name Puritans.

At that time, there had been no written constitution in England. The British common law was a mostly oral tradition, articulated as necessary in various written court decisions. The Puritans determined to anchor their liberties on the written page, a tradition taken from the Bible. They created the Body of Liberties which were established on the belief that Christ's rule is not only given for the church, but also for the state. It contained principles found in the Bible, specifically ninety-eight separate protections of individual rights, including due process of law, trial by a jury of peers, and prohibitions against cruel and unusual punishment.

The fourth thing every Christian should know is that "This nation was founded as a sanctuary for religious dissidents." Roger Williams questioned many of the Puritan laws in Massachusetts, especially the right of magistrates to punish Sabbath-breakers. After he left Massachusetts and founded Rhode Island, he became the first to formulate the concept of "separation of church and state" in America.

Williams said, "The civil magistrate may not intermeddle even to stop a church from apostasy and heresy."{6} In the 1643 charter for Rhode Island and in all its subsequent charters, Roger Williams established the idea that the state should not enforce religious opinion.

Another dissident was the Quaker William Penn. He was the main author of the founding governmental document for the land that came to be known as Pennsylvania. This document was called The Concessions, and dealt with not only government matters but was also concerned with social, philosophical, scientific, and political matters. By 1680, The Concessions had 150 signers, and in the Quaker spirit, this group effort provided for far-reaching liberties never before seen in Anglo-Saxon law.

Paul Johnson said that at the time of America's founding, Philadelphia was "the cultural capital of America." He also points out: "It can be argued, indeed, that Quaker Pennsylvania was the key state in American history. It was the last great flowering of Puritan political innovation, around its great city of brotherly love."{7}


Education and Religion in America
The fifth thing every Christian should know is that "The education of the settlers and founders of America was uniquely Christian and Bible-based." Education was very important to the founders of this country. One of the laws in Puritan New England was the Old Deluder Act. It was called that because it was intended to defeat Satan, the Old Deluder, who had used illiteracy in the Old World to keep people from reading the Word of God. The New England Primer was used to teach colonial children to read and included the Lord's Prayer, the Apostle's Creed, and the text of many hymns and prayers.

We can also see the importance of education in the rules of many of the first colleges. The Laws and Statutes of Harvard College in 1643 said: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life (John 17:3)."{8}

Yale College listed two requirements in its 1745 charter: "All scholars shall live religious, godly, and blameless lives according to the rules of God's Word, diligently reading the Holy Scriptures, the fountain of light and truth; and constantly attend upon all the duties of religion, both in public and secret."{9}

Reverend John Witherspoon was the only active minister who signed the Declaration of Independence. Constitutional scholar John Eidsmoe says, "John Witherspoon is best described as the man who shaped the men who shaped America. Although he did not attend the Constitutional Convention, his influence was multiplied many times over by those who spoke as well as by what was said."{10}

New Jersey elected John Witherspoon to the Continental Congress that drafted the Declaration of Independence. When Congress called for a national day of fasting and prayer on May 17, 1776, John Witherspoon was called upon to preach the sermon. His topic was "The Dominion of Providence over the Affairs of Men."

The sixth thing every Christian should know is that "A religious revival was the key factor in uniting the separate pre- Revolutionary War colonies."

Paul Johnson, author of A History of the American People, reports that the Great Awakening may have touched as many as three out of four American colonists.{11} He also points out that this Great Awakening "sounded the death-knell of British colonialism."{12}

As John Adams was to put it afterwards, "The Revolution was effected before the War commenced. The Revolution was in the mind and hearts of the people: and change in their religious sentiments of their duties and obligations."

Paul Johnson believes that "The Revolution could not have taken place without this religious background. The essential difference between the American Revolution and the French Revolution is that the American Revolution, in its origins, was a religious event, whereas the French Revolution was an anti-religious event."{13}

Clergy and Biblical Christianity
The seventh thing every Christian should know is that "Many of the clergy in the American colonies, members of the Black Regiment, preached liberty." Much of this took place in so-called "Election Sermons" of Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Vermont. Often the ministers spoke on the subject of civil government in a serious and instructive manner. The sermon was then printed so that every representative had a copy for himself, and so that every minister of the town could have a copy.

John Adams observed, "The Philadelphia ministers ‘thunder and lighten every Sabbath' against George III's despotism."{14} And in speaking of his native Virginia, Thomas Jefferson observed that "pulpit oratory ran like a shock of electricity through the whole colony."{15}

Some of the most influential preachers include John Witherspoon, Jonathan Mayhew, Samuel West, and Reverend John Peter Muhlenberg. Reverend Mayhew, for example, preached a message entitled "Concerning Unlimited Submission to the Higher Powers, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England." He said, "It is hoped that but few will think the subject of it an improper one to be discoursed on in the pulpit, under a notion that this is preaching politics, instead of Christ. However, to remove all prejudices of this sort, I beg it may be remembered that ‘all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.' Why, then, should not those parts of Scripture which related to civil government be examined and explained from the desk, as well as others?"{16}

The eighth thing every Christian should know is that "Biblical Christianity was the driving force behind the key leaders of the American Revolution."

In 1772, Samuel Adams created a "Committee of Correspondence" in Boston, in order to keep in touch with his fellow Americans up and down the coast. Historian George Bancroft called Sam Adams, "the last of the Puritans."{17} His biographer, John C. Miller, says that Samuel Adams cannot be understood without considering the lasting impact Whitefield's preaching at Harvard during the Great Awakening had on him.{18} Adams had been telling his countrymen for years that America had to take her stand against tyranny. He regarded individual freedom as "the law of the Creator" and a Christian right documented in the New Testament.{19} As the Declaration was being signed, Sam Adams said, "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His kingdom come."

The Founding Documents
The ninth thing every Christian should know is that "Christianity played a significant role in the development of our nation's birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence." For example, the Presbyterian Elders of North Carolina drafted the Mecklenburg Declaration in May 1775 under the direction of Elder Ephraim Brevard (a graduate of Princeton). One scholar says "In correcting his first draft of the Declaration it can be seen, in at least a few places, that Jefferson has erased the original words and inserted those which are first found in the Mecklenburg Declaration. No one can doubt that Jefferson had Brevard's resolutions before him when he was writing his immortal Declaration."{20}

The relationship between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution is crucial. The Declaration is the "why" of American government, while the Constitution is the "how."

Another influence on the Declaration was George Mason's "Virginia Declaration of Rights." Notice how similar it sounds to the Declaration: "That all men are by nature equally free and independent and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."

Paul Johnson says, "There is no question that the Declaration of Independence was, to those who signed it, a religious as well as secular act, and that the Revolutionary War had the approbation of divine providence. They had won it with God's blessing and afterwards, they drew up their framework of government with God's blessing, just as in the seventeenth century the colonists had drawn up their Compacts and Charters and Orders and Instruments, with God peering over their shoulders."{21}

The tenth thing every Christian should know is that "The Biblical understanding of the sinfulness of man was the guiding principle behind the United States Constitution." John Eidsmoe says, "Although Witherspoon derived the concept of separation of powers from other sources, such as Montesquieu, checks and balances seem to have been his own unique contribution to the foundation of U.S. Government."{22} He adds, "One thing is certain: the Christian religion, particularly Rev. Witherspoon's Calvinism, which emphasized the fallen nature of man, influenced Madison's view of law and government."{23}

Notes:
1. Gilbert K. Chesterton, What I Saw in America (London: Hodder and Stoughton, 1922).
2. David C. Gibbs and Jerry Newcombe, One Nation Under God: Ten Things Every Christian Should Know About the Founding of America (Seminole, FL: Christian Law Association, 2003).
3. Christopher Columbus, Journal, 1492, quoted in Federer, United States Folder, Library of Classics.
4. William Bradford, Of Plymouth Plantation, 1620-1647, edited and updated by Samuel Eliot Morison (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2001), 25.
5. Paul Johnson, A History of the American People (New York: HarperCollins Publishers, 1997), 29-30.
6. George Bancroft, History of the United States of America, From the Discovery of the Continent (New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1890), Vol. I, 250.
7. Johnson, 66.
8. Rules for Harvard University, 1643, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 176.
9. Regulations at Yale College, 1745, from "New England's First Fruits," The Annals of America, Vol. 1, 464.
10. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1987), 81.
11. Johnson, 115.
12. Ibid., 307.
13. Ibid., 116-117.
14. Derek Davis, "Jesus vs. the Watchmaker," Christian History, May 1996, 35.
15. Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, January 6, 1821.
16. Jonathan Mayhew, to the Council and House of Representatives in Colonial New England, 1749.
17. Bancroft, History, Vol. III, 77.
18. John C. Miller, Sam Adams: Pioneer in Propaganda (Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press, 1936/1960), 85, quoted in Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, 248.
19. Robert Flood, Men Who Shaped America (Chicago: Moody Press, 1976), 35-36.
20. N. S. McFetridge, Calvinism in History (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1882), 85-88.
21. Johnson, 204-205.
22. Eidsmoe, 89.
23. Ibid., 101.

http://www.pointofview.net/partner/Article_Display_Page/0,,PTID320166%7CCHID634376%7CCIID2048122,00.html

I thought we were only supposed to post a brief excerpt from an article with a link to the article to avoid issues of copyright infringement. But more to the point, "God" nor "Christ" nor "Christian" are mentioned in neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution.

[April15]

that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, ......

what if the people want thier nation under God......

In Congress, July 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. - Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Those words highlighted suggest to me that this is not a nation created to revere God or a creator but to revere freedom granted by a creator.

[glockmail]

.....
Those words highlighted suggest to me that this is not a nation created to revere God or a creator but to revere freedom granted by a creator.

True, but those freedoms don't include guv'mint health care, queer marraige, and redistribution of wealth. :coffee:

[manu1959]

In Congress, July 4, 1776
The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. - Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Those words highlighted suggest to me that this is not a nation created to revere God or a creator but to revere freedom granted by a creator.

so should not that creator be honoured some how.....look what he / she gave you?

[April15]

so should not that creator be honoured some how.....look what he / she gave you?You can honor whomever you wish in this nation.

[glockmail]

You can honor whomever you wish in this nation. Yes, but expect to pay the consequences.

[April15]

Yes, but expect to pay the consequences.What consequences? I don't think any invasion is emmenant do you?

[glockmail]

What consequences? I don't think any invasion is emmenant do you?
I was referring to the consequences of not following the Way, the Light and the Truth. So yes you are free to step off a curb into traffic, or dive off a building. either way you face the consquence of your actions and decisions.

[manu1959]

You can honor whomever you wish in this nation.

really......so if i am a christian can i honour the creator at my public school?......

[Psychoblues]

You are such an example of religious hypocrisy and religious intolerance that I fear for your mental health and subsequent ability to find appropriate assistance with your obvious problems, pr.


In other words... "stop posting your religious conservative pieces PR, you're taking away from the liberal garbage I post,".... yeah I got ya Pb... this is your attempt at the board "fairness doctrine" right?

Fuck off jerkwad.

Fuck off this, then fuck off that and then generally fuck off all the other. Your jamm, not mine, pr.

Have I ever told you to kiss this?: :pee:

I apologise if it's merely a repetition.

[LuvRPgrl]

I thought we were only supposed to post a brief excerpt from an article with a link to the article to avoid issues of copyright infringement. But more to the point, "God" nor "Christ" nor "Christian" are mentioned in neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution.

and your point is?