Punishing Work

[Kathianne]

Raise the minimum wage, workers punished:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-07/when-work-punished-ongoing-tragedy-americas-welfare-state

[Gunny]

Raise the minimum wage, workers punished:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-07/when-work-punished-ongoing-tragedy-americas-welfare-state

The problem with that plan is all the nay-sayers are right.

If I make $15 an hour as skilled labor, do I get a 100% increase in my wages? And what's my incentive for learning a trade of some lame burger flipper is getting paid what I do?

Then there's the usual leftwing stance of one size fits all. $15 an hour is good money in Texas because the cost of living isn't the same as it is in Northern cities. It probably won't pay rent in NYC. Another case of the left needing to keeps its nose out of the 10th Amendment.

[tailfins]

The problem with that plan is all the nay-sayers are right.

If I make $15 an hour as skilled labor, do I get a 100% increase in my wages? And what's my incentive for learning a trade of some lame burger flipper is getting paid what I do?

Then there's the usual leftwing stance of one size fits all. $15 an hour is good money in Texas because the cost of living isn't the same as it is in Northern cities. It probably won't pay rent in NYC. Another case of the left needing to keeps its nose out of the 10th Amendment.

What happens is an incentive to have burger flipping machines. Job descriptions get more demanding. There will be far fewer entry-level jobs and more assistant manager types will be hired. An assistant manager can and will mop the floor, especially if two of them are on duty at the local McDonald's. There will be no opening for someone who ONLY mops floors and empties trash.

[Perianne]

Our aides at work only make $9-10 per hour. If all entry level jobs pay $15 per hour, you can bet your bottom that there will be no one willing to take an aide job wiping butts when they can flip burgers for the same pay.

[Gunny]

What happens is an incentive to have burger flipping machines. Job descriptions get more demanding. There will be far fewer entry-level jobs and more assistant manager types will be hired. An assistant manager can and will mop the floor, especially if two of them are on duty at the local McDonald's. There will be no opening for someone who ONLY mops floors and empties trash.

If you can find a McDonald's or Quiznos I didn't do the electrical for in San Antonio, I'm all ears. Thing is, you want to give dipstick who can barely get a burger flipped the same amount of money I made for installing his machines and electricity.

[Gunny]

Our aides at work only make $9-10 per hour. If all entry level jobs pay $15 per hour, you can bet your bottom that there will be no one willing to take an aide job wiping butts when they can flip burgers for the same pay.

Why should I? I spent 10 hour days, 6 days a week, wiring and installing all the electrical equipment, digging the ditches for the underground, setting up 20 ft parking lot pole lights, in the Texas heat for $16 an hour. A dollar less I can be in the air conditioning shaking fries and flipping burgers.

I don't work for free and I'm sick of these weenies that think they deserve something for nothing. Stocking shelves in the local grocery requires more skill than flipping burgers. I can do THAT out back on my second 6 pack. And I make better burgers than McDonalds.

I'm just kind of sick of 2 generations or more of people that expect something for nothing. Get off your ass and earn it.

[Kathianne]

From the OP link:


...

But while politicians, pundits, and economists run in circles perpetuating a debate that’s better suited for an undergrad introductory economics course than it is for the national stage (it’s really quite simple, as New York Burger King franchisee David Sutz made clear when he told CBS (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/debate-over-minimum-wage-increase-heats-up/) that "businesses are not going to pay $15 dollars an hour [because] the economics don't work in this industry [given that] there is a limit to what you're going to pay for a hamburger"), there’s a far more troubling situation unfolding behind the scenes and it harkens back to an issue we discussed at length almost three years ago.


In short, the welfare system punishes work and incentivizes dependency. More concretely, the structure is such that rational actors will eschew hard work, because the more they earn, the poorer they will effectively be in terms of total resources (calculated as welfare benefits plus earnings).
In the simplest possible terms: for many Americans, wage growth is a very, very bad thing.


We encourage readers to go back and read "When Work Is Punished: The Tragedy Of America's Welfare State (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-11-27/when-work-punished-tragedy-americas-welfare-state)," and not only because it serves as a helpful primer, but because it also underscores the degree to which exactly nothing has changed in the 30 or so months since it was written. At issue is the so-called "welfare cliff" beyond which families will literally become poorer the higher their wages, as the drop off in entitlements more than offsets the increase in earnings.


A study by the Illinois Policy Institute shows just how dramatic the effect of "falling off the cliff" (so to speak) can be. In one of the most startling findings for instance, if a single mother raising two children were to accept a pay raise from $12 to $18 per hour, her total resources would fall by nearly 33%. Here's more:






From: "Making work pay in Illinois: how welfare cliffs can trap families in poverty (http://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/modeling-potential-income-and-welfare-assistance-benefits-in-illinois/)"



For single-and two-parent households in Illinois, there is a significant welfare "cliff" where the household may become worse off financially as they work more hours or as their wages increase.That is because the available welfare benefits decline by a greater amount than the increase in earned income.



This study analyzed a potential welfare benefits package for single- and two-parent households, both with two young children, in Cook, Lake and St. Clair counties. The potential means-tested benefits included tax credits, cash assistance, food assistance, housing assistance, child-care subsidies and health care.



The study’s findings for Cook County include:




A wide range of benefits provides a large magnitude of support. The potential sum of welfare benefits can reach $47,894 annually for single-parent households and $41,237 for two-parent households. Welfare benefits will be available to some households earning as much as $74,880 annually.





Welfare cliffs are significant and can trap families. A single mom has the most resources available to her family when she works full time at a wage of $8.25 to $12 an hour. Disturbingly, taking a pay increase to $18 an hour can leave her with about one-third fewer total resources (net income and government benefits). In order to make work "pay" again, she would need an hourly wage of $38 to mitigate the impact of lost benefits and higher taxes.





The system is inequitable. A minimum wage increase to $10 an hour would push a household where both parents work for minimum wage over the welfare cliff. They would suffer a net loss in household resources of about $9,000 as reduced government benefits more than cancel out the higher wages.


As bad as this sounds on paper, it's even more stunning visually. The following graphic for Cook County shows just how financially destructive it can be for low-paid workers to try and break free of their dependence on the public purse:

...

[Perianne]

If you can find a McDonald's or Quiznos I didn't do the electrical for in San Antonio, I'm all ears. Thing is, you want to give dipstick who can barely get a burger flipped the same amount of money I made for installing his machines and electricity.

Gunny, I didn't know you knew electricity. One of my hobbies is electronics. I mean down to the circuitry. I got started waaaay back when my husband brought home a book on beginning electronics. I read it and was fascinated.

When my husband and I built our own house, I did much of the wiring. It passed code, so I guess I did okay.

Anyway, I am glad to see someone else who likes electricity!

[Perianne]

Welfare is acceptable for people who simply cannot make it otherwise. But it should be such a miserable living as to make a person want to do something - anything! - other than accept welfare.

[Kathianne]

Welfare is acceptable to people who simply cannot make it otherwise. But it should be such a miserable living as to make a person want to do something - anything! - other than accept welfare.

and that's the sticky wicket. All the talk about raising the minimum wage, when the safety net has in many blue states actually provided benefits equal to a middle class job-IF the income threshold is low enough. Otherwise taxes and loss of benefits hurt the 'worker.'

There are reasons for government not interfering in natural consequences of low education, work ethics, irresponsible choices-at least for healthy adults.

The first example I can think of is that of families receiving SNAP and the whole school breakfast/lunch/ and some places dinners for kids.

I don't want kids hungry. However this little doubt that this is a sort of welfare double dipping, brought to us by the government.

These programs have been wedded to lives of those in poverty. The kicker is though, IF they get jobs even at the lowest level, they stand to lose housing subsidies; food offsets; medical assistance; from the links-programs and benefits most of us know nothing about.

These are disincentives to working, much less working harder and gaining more qualifications.

I'd like to hear from some candidates on how to address all the unintended consequences they've created.

[Gunny]

Gunny, I didn't know you knew electricity. One of my hobbies is electronics. I mean down to the circuitry. I got started waaaay back when my husband brought home a book on beginning electronics. I read it and was fascinated.

When my husband and I built our own house, I did much of the wiring. It passed code, so I guess I did okay.

Anyway, I am glad to see someone else who likes electricity!

I was an electrician for 15 years. My grandfather taught me everything I know. He was an electrician from the 30s to the 70s. He used to inspect P-39 Bell's at Kelly Field and test fly them to Albequreque during WWII. Was the coolest guy I've ever known.

I know electricity up one side and down the other. Electronics not so much. My hands are too big. :laugh:

[Gunny]

Welfare is acceptable for people who simply cannot make it otherwise. But it should be such a miserable living as to make a person want to do something - anything! - other than accept welfare.

I don't have a problem with people that need welfare. I have a problem with people that abuse it. When you're taking handouts and have a better cell phone, internet and truck than I do, I got an issue.

I used to have to heat Hormel chili up in the sink in my BEQ room so I had something to eat. And I had to walk or bum a ride to get to town. I'm not feeling sorry for someone with an ATT high speed, low dial phone that can contact the moon while cruising in a caddy or BMW.

[fj1200]

Raise the minimum wage, workers punished:

Along those lines:

De Blasio’s new welfare plan: Anything to stop people from getting a job (http://nypost.com/2015/08/09/de-blasios-new-welfare-plan-anything-to-stop-people-from-getting-a-job/?ref=yfp)
...
New York City mayor Bill de Blasio is proposing a full employment program for government-funded social service workers. In the process, he will likely gut one of the most successful welfare-to-work initiatives in the country, and possibly return New York to its former status of the US’s dependency capital, when one in seven New Yorkers were on the dole.
The city’s gargantuan welfare agency, the Human Resources Administration, has just issued its “new vision for employment and education services.” Welfare users will no longer be expected to immediately look for and take a job in exchange for taxpayer support — an expectation that was the key breakthrough of welfare reform. Instead, welfare recipients will serve indefinitely as receptacles for an endless array of taxpayer-supported services.
...
The rolls plummeted, as welfare recipients formerly deemed “unemployable” by service providers were snatched up by employers. In New York City, the welfare case load dropped from 1.1 million in 1993 to 350,000 in early 2015. And with workforce participation up — from 43% to 63% for single mothers — poverty declined. Child poverty in New York City was down almost 10 percentage points in 2011 compared to 1993, as former HRA
Commissioner Robert Doar and Manhattan Institute fellow Fred Siegel have pointed out.
Yet HRA’s current commissioner, Steven Banks, claims that work-oriented welfare reform was a failure. His proof is the following: Twenty-five percent of welfare recipients “reported to have received employment assistance” in
New York City return to the rolls after a year, HRA’s data allegedly shows. That means that 75% are still working.
Any other government program with a 75% success rate would be declared not just a resounding achievement but possibly a mirage. In the criminal justice field, for example, criminologists high-five each other if an anti-recidivism program ekes out a mere 7% decline in criminal reoffending.
...
The main beneficiaries of New York’s new service juggernaut will be social-service providers — not the poor.

[NightTrain]

Why should I? I spent 10 hour days, 6 days a week, wiring and installing all the electrical equipment, digging the ditches for the underground, setting up 20 ft parking lot pole lights, in the Texas heat for $16 an hour. A dollar less I can be in the air conditioning shaking fries and flipping burgers.

I don't work for free and I'm sick of these weenies that think they deserve something for nothing. Stocking shelves in the local grocery requires more skill than flipping burgers. I can do THAT out back on my second 6 pack. And I make better burgers than McDonalds.

I'm just kind of sick of 2 generations or more of people that expect something for nothing. Get off your ass and earn it.


Holy crap, I hope that was many, many years ago.

Electrician scale in AK is well over $40 / hour outside.

I heard the scale was depressed down in the South, but I didn't think it was anywhere near that level.... that's deplorable.

[Gunny]

Holy crap, I hope that was many, many years ago.

Electrician scale in AK is well over $40 / hour outside.

I heard the scale was depressed down in the South, but I didn't think it was anywhere near that level.... that's deplorable.

Nope. The scale is not depressed. It works with the cost of living where I'm from. $40. Master electricians don't get that much money. That was kinda my point. 15 an hour is decent money in Texas. Makes you wealthy in S Dakota. $40 an hour do nothing Texas but put a lot of people out of work, and drive the cost of rent and utilities through the roof.

The fallacy to the whole argument is no matter you pay labor, vendors are going to make sure they get most of it. The whole concept will wreck our economy and in the, do nothing for the unskilled labor demanding more money for doing nothing.

[NightTrain]

Nope. The scale is not depressed. It works with the cost of living where I'm from. $40. Master electricians don't get that much money. That was kinda my point. 15 an hour is decent money in Texas. Makes you wealthy in S Dakota. $40 an hour do nothing Texas but put a lot of people out of work, and drive the cost of rent and utilities through the roof.

The fallacy to the whole argument is no matter you pay labor, vendors are going to make sure they get most of it. The whole concept will wreck our economy and in the, do nothing for the unskilled labor demanding more money for doing nothing.


There's something very wrong with burger flippers making as much as an electrician.

I think the fast food joint workers here generally are making $9 / hour. You don't hear them demanding $15 / hour because everyone understands it's not a career, it's for kids just starting out.

Hell, I remember working for Godfather's Pizza back in high school making $3.18 / hour. Yep, I worked a full 8 hours to fill up that Camaro with a hungry 327 in it. I didn't even consider asking for a raise, because it was a temporary, shitty job with no future. Instead, I joined the IBEW and put in my time to become a Journeyman to make the kind of money that I wanted.

[Gunny]

There's something very wrong with burger flippers making as much as an electrician.

I think the fast food joint workers here generally are making $9 / hour. You don't hear them demanding $15 / hour because everyone understands it's not a career, it's for kids just starting out.

Hell, I remember working for Godfather's Pizza back in high school making $3.18 / hour. Yep, I worked a full 8 hours to fill up that Camaro with a hungry 327 in it. I didn't even consider asking for a raise, because it was a temporary, shitty job with no future. Instead, I joined the IBEW and put in my time to become a Journeyman to make the kind of money that I wanted.

That was my other point. If you're going to double the income of burger flippers, what about mine? That law would just take me from middle class to poor.

[fj1200]

That was my other point. If you're going to double the income of burger flippers, what about mine? That law would just take me from middle class to poor.

Just look at the fallout the $70k minimum wage guy is getting. But long-term things would even out. Burger flippers become burger flipping machine engineers who would be worth the $15; there would just be far fewer of them.

[Kathianne]

Just look at the fallout the $70k minimum wage guy is getting. But long-term things would even out. Burger flippers become burger flipping machine engineers who would be worth the $15; there would just be far fewer of them.

When all shakes out, long term. $15 an hour will be worth 7.25 today. Not a lot. Lots of the middle will be further eroded though.

[tailfins]

Nope. The scale is not depressed. It works with the cost of living where I'm from. $40. Master electricians don't get that much money. That was kinda my point. 15 an hour is decent money in Texas. Makes you wealthy in S Dakota. $40 an hour do nothing Texas but put a lot of people out of work, and drive the cost of rent and utilities through the roof.

The fallacy to the whole argument is no matter you pay labor, vendors are going to make sure they get most of it. The whole concept will wreck our economy and in the, do nothing for the unskilled labor demanding more money for doing nothing.

:eek: We spend over $1,300 per month in just groceries. If I made $15 per hour, I would go back to Massachusetts. DFW pay rates are comparable to Boston. H1B Visa (Indian) manual software testers get $50 per hour because very few locals will work for pay that low.

[Gunny]

:eek: We spend over $1,300 per month in just groceries. If I made $15 per hour, I would go back to Massachusetts. DFW pay rates are comparable to Boston. H1B Visa (Indian) manual software testers get $50 per hour because very few locals will work for pay that low.

My point is, we don't. You're basing $15 per hour on large, left-wing city incomes and costs of living. Seattle, Chicago. NYC.

Y'all don't seem to get there's the rest of us out here that don't want to be part of your world. Unfortunately, cockroaches massed in lefty cities get you more electoral votes than real people living on their own and earning a living.

[Kathianne]

My point is, we don't. You're basing $15 per hour on large, left-wing city incomes and costs of living. Seattle, Chicago. NYC.

Y'all don't seem to get there's the rest of us out here that don't want to be part of your world. Unfortunately, cockroaches massed in lefty cities get you more electoral votes than real people living on their own and earning a living.

He actually is referring to the point of the OP link. The benefits given in 'blue states' IL given as an example, can equal an income of $50k or more per year. If their income goes up, sometimes by only a small amount, some of those benefits are no longer available. This is a disincentive to work...

[Gunny]

Just look at the fallout the $70k minimum wage guy is getting. But long-term things would even out. Burger flippers become burger flipping machine engineers who would be worth the $15; there would just be far fewer of them.

They don't even out. What they do is increase unskilled labor to making the same money as skilled labor. Once all the vendors adjust to make sure they get their rip off, you just went from middle class to minimum wage.

It just makes more people poor and dependent on the government which is exactly what the left wants.

[Jeff]

There's something very wrong with burger flippers making as much as an electrician.

I think the fast food joint workers here generally are making $9 / hour. You don't hear them demanding $15 / hour because everyone understands it's not a career, it's for kids just starting out.

Hell, I remember working for Godfather's Pizza back in high school making $3.18 / hour. Yep, I worked a full 8 hours to fill up that Camaro with a hungry 327 in it. I didn't even consider asking for a raise, because it was a temporary, shitty job with no future. Instead, I joined the IBEW and put in my time to become a Journeyman to make the kind of money that I wanted.

That is the argument I have, here in GA ( which pays a lot more than SC does ) 15 bucks a hour is good money, man if they where to pay burger flippers that they would have to raise hourly wages all over the place, not to many get much more than that for manual work of any kind.

[red state]

That was my other point. If you're going to double the income of burger flippers, what about mine? That law would just take me from middle class to poor.

EXACTLY!!! $15 an hour is good money here in Mississippi as well. HECK, you can buy a right smart home and land here that only a wealthy actor or something could pay for up North or in more liberal areas. Screw em. They are simply to stupid to understand basic economics.

I've said for years that when you raise the min. wage without adjusting pay for everyone.......WE take a pay cut because even your average, greedy liberal who owns an apartment complex, will raise the rent. And petro, milk, eggs and bread usually go up as well (cuz THEY know they can get it). It isn't just the greedy Republican Capitalist......it's every greedy bastage who is out for himself.

Gunny, my uncle and his son are/were master electricians down in Biloxi working on the gambling boats and stuff. My uncle is retired and his son passed away four years ago (auto accident). They worked their behinds off (I assume at $20-$40 an hour) and it is not right to bring low IQ or unskilled labor up to ya'll's level.

I work for clients all around the world and I've already taken a HUGE hit due to competition and two TERRIBLE presidents (three counting Clinton) but I'll base this on the current dip wad and the one before him. I charged $40 an hour ($30 an hour for good/repeat clients) and I'm now at a comfortable level of $18 an hour. That should stay the same due to even MORE competition and terrible leadership but it would kill me if they 'entry level' wage was increased while I MUST remain competitive. They could try reducing gas and ribeye prices before socialistically tampering with salaries (unfairly).

[tailfins]

My point is, we don't. You're basing $15 per hour on large, left-wing city incomes and costs of living. Seattle, Chicago. NYC.

Y'all don't seem to get there's the rest of us out here that don't want to be part of your world. Unfortunately, cockroaches massed in lefty cities get you more electoral votes than real people living on their own and earning a living.

I'm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area now. It's the sweet spot with Boston pay rates and a Texas cost of living.

[Voted4Reagan]

i'm in the dallas-fort worth area now. It's the sweet spot with boston pay rates and a texas cost of living.

you said that 3 times already... Take the hint...nobody cares that you're in dfw.

[fj1200]

you said that 3 times already... Take the hint...nobody cares that you're in dfw.

I care slightly more about that than you following him around the board and attempting to speak for everyone.

[Gunny]

I'm in the Dallas-Fort Worth area now. It's the sweet spot with Boston pay rates and a Texas cost of living.

You suck. :laugh:

[Gunny]

EXACTLY!!! $15 an hour is good money here in Mississippi as well. HECK, you can buy a right smart home and land here that only a wealthy actor or something could pay for up North or in more liberal areas. Screw em. They are simply to stupid to understand basic economics.

I've said for years that when you raise the min. wage without adjusting pay for everyone.......WE take a pay cut because even your average, greedy liberal who owns an apartment complex, will raise the rent. And petro, milk, eggs and bread usually go up as well (cuz THEY know they can get it). It isn't just the greedy Republican Capitalist......it's every greedy bastage who is out for himself.

Gunny, my uncle and his son are/were master electricians down in Biloxi working on the gambling boats and stuff. My uncle is retired and his son passed away four years ago (auto accident). They worked their behinds off (I assume at $20-$40 an hour) and it is not right to bring low IQ or unskilled labor up to ya'll's level.

I work for clients all around the world and I've already taken a HUGE hit due to competition and two TERRIBLE presidents (three counting Clinton) but I'll base this on the current dip wad and the one before him. I charged $40 an hour ($30 an hour for good/repeat clients) and I'm now at a comfortable level of $18 an hour. That should stay the same due to even MORE competition and terrible leadership but it would kill me if they 'entry level' wage was increased while I MUST remain competitive. They could try reducing gas and ribeye prices before socialistically tampering with salaries (unfairly).

A master electrician in MS probably makes $20-25 an hour. A journeyman would make probably $14-$16 an hour. You know how much shit I have to know and you want to give some burger flipper the same rate of pay that I get? I wouldn't even know where to begin with the horror stories of electricans versus burger flippers. What? They migh splash some grease on their sorry, pale skinned little fingers? Try getting blown up by a 480 panel. Or getting hit by 277 volts carrying 23 lights at max ampacity. Everyone thinks the voltage on tasers is so rough when the fact is, voltage doesn't kill you. Ampacity does. I watch all these wusses have meltdowns over tasers when ANY electrician could tell you how to defend against it, and clean voltage ain't shit.

I digress. A burger-flipper would get tasered into Hell. Try that shit on ME.