Seattle debates Sharia law-sanctioned housing

[Jeff]

I don't believe anyone should have a leg up on anyone else. If you really want to give one group of people special treatment how about Americans, they want to make it so a Muslim can get a loan for a home with no interest but a American has to pay interest, go figure. Do we really need more 7-11's or shady motels that bad ? Heck let these folks get their loans just like anyone else has to in this country, this isn't a Muslim Country and seems like some people have forgotten that.


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Jul. 17, 2015 - 5:42 - Jehmu Greene and Flip Pidot react to proposal being considered in Washington state

[LongTermGuy]

I don't believe anyone should have a leg up on anyone else. If you really want to give one group of people special treatment how about Americans, they want to make it so a Muslim can get a loan for a home with no interest but a American has to pay interest, go figure. Do we really need more 7-11's or shady motels that bad ? Heck let these folks get their loans just like anyone else has to in this country, this isn't a Muslim Country and seems like some people have forgotten that.


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Americans have not forgotten....Agree with Tyr...time to start deporting koran reading muslims (when clean up time comes)....and let me add...their Leftist...very Liberal... naive supporters...

[jimnyc]

I say crap on that. The same laws and regulations should apply to everyone when it comes to interest and homes. Why should they get special treatment when it comes to financing/living and such and not others?

[fj1200]

If you really want to give one group of people special treatment how about Americans, they want to make it so a Muslim can get a loan for a home with no interest but a American has to pay interest, go figure.

It's not really special treatment, it's just a different way to get to the same place albeit convoluted. They have Sharia mortgages in the UK and I think we have them here as well.


It might be argued that charging rent or making a profit is no different to charging interest, in that ultimately the providers still make money - but as Islamic finance (http://www.theguardian.com/money/islamic-finance)experts explain, it is how that money is made that is the underlying difference between Islamic mortgages and conventional ones. Farrukh Raza from Islamic Finance Advisory and Assurance Services, an independent consultancy, says: 'The issue isn't with making money, it's the conditions in which that money is made. So instead of making money through interest, Islamic banks will make money through profit or through rent when the bank owns the property as an asset. It is important to remember that Islamic mortgages simply offer an alternative financing structure which gives Muslim customers different options - it's not a 0 per cent deal to buy your house for nothing.'
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/jun/29/mortgages.islam

They may not be paying interest but they are paying "interest." The Catholic Church used to ban the paying of interest as well.

[jimnyc]

^^ So long as it's then available to ANYONE who would like to structure it as such. And of course that they pay any and all applicable taxes that would have come along with the interest as well.

[Jeff]

Have to agree with Jim Fj, as long as anyone can get the same thing, hey have at it, but why is the hell would we want to even think about bringing anything to do with Sharia law here, hell just this week these POS killed in Chattanooga, let's deport the camel riding POS not encourage them.

[fj1200]

^^ So long as it's then available to ANYONE who would like to structure it as such. And of course that they pay any and all applicable taxes that would have come along with the interest as well.

I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be available to anyone but I'm not sure why anyone would want it except for a religious purpose.

[fj1200]

Have to agree with Jim Fj, as long as anyone can get the same thing, hey have at it, but why is the hell would we want to even think about bringing anything to do with Sharia law here, hell just this week these POS killed in Chattanooga, let's deport the camel riding POS not encourage them.

As I said I imagine anyone can get it but people already live by Sharia just as you presumably live by the ten commandments. And this appears to be nothing more than a financial arrangement between an individual and a bank.

[jimnyc]

As I said I imagine anyone can get it but people already live by Sharia just as you presumably live by the ten commandments. And this appears to be nothing more than a financial arrangement between an individual and a bank.

All cool with me, so long as they pay 100% equal taxes, and I can walk into ANY bank they do business with and get the same structure. And it wouldn't matter if it's a religious person or not, some may think this type of structure might be advantageous to them.

Also, if it's "just" an arrangement with a bank, then why are regulations changing? Why would they need to debate anything within a housing department? Who runs these housing departments? Why would the mayor need to be involved in a bank arrangement? Why would the city need to get involved?

[fj1200]

All cool with me, so long as they pay 100% equal taxes, and I can walk into ANY bank they do business with and get the same structure. And it wouldn't matter if it's a religious person or not, some may think this type of structure might be advantageous to them.

Also, if it's "just" an arrangement with a bank, then why are regulations changing? Why would they need to debate anything within a housing department? Who runs these housing departments? Why would the mayor need to be involved in a bank arrangement? Why would the city need to get involved?

To the former mortgages are tax advantaged, but I agree it should be for everyone. Also, are you saying that a Sharia bank shouldn't be able to discriminate based on their religious beliefs?

To the latter I would guess that Seattle regulations possibly don't allow such an arrangement for some reason. There seemed to be a dearth of specifics on the proposal. FWIW neither commentator seemed to be oppose the arrangement as long as it was open to anyone.

[jimnyc]

To the former mortgages are tax advantaged, but I agree it should be for everyone. Also, are you saying that a Sharia bank shouldn't be able to discriminate based on their religious beliefs?

To the latter I would guess that Seattle regulations possibly don't allow such an arrangement for some reason. There seemed to be a dearth of specifics on the proposal. FWIW neither commentator seemed to be oppose the arrangement as long as it was open to anyone.

If it were a "private" bank, then Seattle and others wouldn't have a say in how they do business. The Mayor doesn't have authority to tell private citizens they cannot enter into such a contract. Why wouldn't a muslim be able to borrow money from another person and have a notarized contract on how to repay? Nope, this is about helping them get loans from regular banks in order to purchase homes in the area, and I'll guarantee you it isn't "private muslim banks". And some of them are using venture capital firms as well. But it's not as easy that way, hence them wanting to open things up more.

But if and when they do, all I'm saying is that others should have equal access.

And before you say it's no big deal... Even you referred to a Sharia bank. Can I go in there and get some sort of loan like a Muslim can? And can those Muslims go into regular banks like I can, and do the same business if they choose to?

[fj1200]

If it were a "private" bank, then Seattle and others wouldn't have a say in how they do business. The Mayor doesn't have authority to tell private citizens they cannot enter into such a contract. Why wouldn't a muslim be able to borrow money from another person and have a notarized contract on how to repay? Nope, this is about helping them get loans from regular banks in order to purchase homes in the area, and I'll guarantee you it isn't "private muslim banks". And some of them are using venture capital firms as well. But it's not as easy that way, hence them wanting to open things up more.

But if and when they do, all I'm saying is that others should have equal access.

And before you say it's no big deal... Even you referred to a Sharia bank. Can I go in there and get some sort of loan like a Muslim can? And can those Muslims go into regular banks like I can, and do the same business if they choose to?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that banks be forced to offer such arrangements. If you have evidence to the contrary I'll certainly take a look but from what I heard Seattle has specific regulations that do not allow for those types of mortgages. Nevertheless I agree that all should have the same access.

All I'm saying is that if it is not an illegal contract then there should be no regulatory reason that they would be disallowed. To clarify then you think that a Sharia bank that serves Muslims should not be able to discriminate against a non-Muslim for the same product?

[jimnyc]

To clarify then you think that a Sharia bank that serves Muslims should not be able to discriminate against a non-Muslim for the same product?

Are you serious? With all of the crap about cakes and everything else? You're damn straight they can't discriminate. Is a bakery a private business? Is this Sharia bank a private business? Can a bakery be told it MUST do business against it's religious beliefs, or get fined if they don't? So - can a muslim bank turn down business based on it's religious beliefs? Good questions. And based on precedent - they had better give me the same business as their shariah friends.

[fj1200]

Are you serious? With all of the crap about cakes and everything else? You're damn straight they can't discriminate. Is a bakery a private business? Is this Sharia bank a private business? Can a bakery be told it MUST do business against it's religious beliefs, or get fined if they don't? So - can a muslim bank turn down business based on it's religious beliefs? Good questions. And based on precedent - they had better give me the same business as their shariah friends.

Of course I'm serious; DP is serious business man. :slap: I was just wondering if you were consistent. I think a Sharia bank should be able to discriminate just as I think a baker should be able to discriminate.

[jimnyc]

Of course I'm serious; DP is serious business man. :slap: I was just wondering if you were consistent. I think a Sharia bank should be able to discriminate just as I think a baker should be able to discriminate.

As I think they should, I don't think a private business should have to do jack shit with anyone of they don't want to, as a client can go anywhere they want to. Forced business is bullshit. BUT, if you're going to FORCE one, then apply it equally.

I still haven't seen any punishment to the Muslim bakeries who literally laughed at the folks trying to get the gay cakes. I can't find anymore about the outcome, but it's obvious they aren't setting aside their religious beliefs. If I could afford it, I would like to go to about 50 of them and see if they'll do it and then turn them all in. And a Sharia bank? Same thing. Treat me as an "equal" or I'll whine, bitch, scream until people get sick of me and give me "equality".

...

So full circle. Yes, if a private bank, and Muslim owned, let them make their own private contracts/loans and I have no issue with that. But if the state/local authorities get involved with regular banks, then it applies to all.

AND IN MY OPINION - if there were somewhere in the USA that allowed for, example, for Muslims to avoid certain business based on their religion, then the fines towards the bakery and the couple in upstate NY should be reversed. Precedent can be a fucker.

[FearandLoathing]

I don't believe anyone should have a leg up on anyone else. If you really want to give one group of people special treatment how about Americans, they want to make it so a Muslim can get a loan for a home with no interest but a American has to pay interest, go figure. Do we really need more 7-11's or shady motels that bad ? Heck let these folks get their loans just like anyone else has to in this country, this isn't a Muslim Country and seems like some people have forgotten that.


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I wonder about the legality. No, congress may not be making a law regarding religion, but the city appears to be trying to do so. I suppose now, a Sikh, Christian, Jew, or Buddhist could sue for discrimination as with members of the LGBT community.

However,


The First Amendment guarantees freedoms concerning religion, expression, assembly, and the right to petition. It forbids Congress from both promoting one religion over others (http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/establishment_clause) and also restricting an individual’s religious practices (http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/free_exercise_clause). It guarantees freedom of expression (http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt1bfrag1_user.html#amdt1b_hd2) by prohibiting Congress from restricting the press or the rights of individuals to speak freely. It also guarantees the right of citizens to assemble peaceably and to petition their government (http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt1efrag7_user.html#amdt1e_hd17).
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment




Perhaps they expect to get it through based on a very liberal interpretation of the "fee exercise clause".

[fj1200]

I wonder about the legality. No, congress may not be making a law regarding religion, but the city appears to be trying to do so.

They aren't establishing a religion, they are allowing a contract.

[fj1200]

Some more:


One suggestion would help followers of Sharia law buy houses. That's virtually impossible now because Sharia law prohibits payment of interest on loans. The 28-member committee recommended the city convene lenders and community leaders to explore options for increasing access to Sharia-compliant loan products.

More and more lenders are offering Sharia-compliant financing (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/10/11/shariah-compliant-islamic-financing-usa-europe/16828599/), according to aUSA Today (http://www.bizjournals.com/profiles/company/us/va/mclean/usa_today/1858819) report. The sector has grown to more than $1.6 trillion in assets worldwide over the past three decades, and analysts see potential for continued growth as the number of Muslims in the United States and Europe grows.
http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/2015/07/seattle-mayor-offers-plan-to-help-followers-of.html


Is this a case of Sharia law creeping into our lives?No, it's not. Just because it says Sharia law and just because it accommodates Sharia law, it doesn't automatically mean it's a bad thing we need to be scared of.
So this week we saw the affordable housing committee in Seattle release recommendations (http://mynorthwest.com/11/2784264/Seattle-mayor-goes-after-developers-in-affordable-housing-plan) on how to bring to the city cheaper housing. Most of the suggestions are pretty awful, counterproductive, and fueled only by ideology and nothing more.
http://mynorthwest.com/992/2785853/Fact-Check-Is-Seattles-mayor-kowtowing-to-Sharia-law

[Gunny]

I don't believe anyone should have a leg up on anyone else. If you really want to give one group of people special treatment how about Americans, they want to make it so a Muslim can get a loan for a home with no interest but a American has to pay interest, go figure. Do we really need more 7-11's or shady motels that bad ? Heck let these folks get their loans just like anyone else has to in this country, this isn't a Muslim Country and seems like some people have forgotten that.


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There shouldn't even be a debate. Sharia Law violates the Civil Rights Act of 1965. DO ANY of the stupid leftwing politicians in this country ever bother to read the Constitution and the Amendments.

Sharia law is discriminatory. Period.

SO .... let's get this straight. No confederate flag. No cops shooting black thugs. White separatists are evil. But the dumbasses on the left are even discussing Draconian, racist and gender-biased Sharia law?

I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone lately. I keep looking around to see if Rod Serling is in the corner doing a monologue.

[fj1200]

There shouldn't even be a debate. Sharia Law violates the Civil Rights Act of 1965. ...

Sharia law is discriminatory. Period.

Um, I don't think so. You could be Sharia compliant if you like, half the board here agrees with parts of it (guess which part?), and I purchase all sorts of kosher hot dogs. The question would be if a bank offered products only to Muslims.

[Gunny]

Um, I don't think so. You could be Sharia compliant if you like, half the board here agrees with parts of it (guess which part?), and I purchase all sorts of kosher hot dogs. The question would be if a bank offered products only to Muslims.

Big picture:

Sharia law is discriminatory against women. Got nothing to do with Kosher which is an antiquated Jewish custom. Women are chattel. If you walk up to a woman in the ME and address her without the man's permission, he can beat HER. Get raped? Your fault. They stone you to death. Basically it's slavery, but don't hold your breath for any PC person, especially Obama to say that. Apparently the only people guilty of slavery are white people in the US.

Some of y'all need to get out and around more. ESPECIALLY minorities who think they have it so rough here. Try being a Christian in an African village.

[Jeff]

No matter what there is no way we should be taking anything from Sharia law, those folks life to kill us, that is there ultimate goal, if banks want help folks that is great, but it doesn't have to be sharia law or a page from it.

[fj1200]

Sharia law is discriminatory against women.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing.


No matter what there is no way we should be taking anything from Sharia law, those folks life to kill us, that is there ultimate goal, if banks want help folks that is great, but it doesn't have to be sharia law or a page from it.

We're not taking anything from Sharia. Seattle libs are apparently trying to increase home ownership rates and suggesting that a Sharia compliant "mortgage" will remove obstacles. I don't think there is any rule or law that would prevent such an arrangement.

[Gunny]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing.



We're not taking anything from Sharia. Seattle libs are apparently trying to increase home ownership rates and suggesting that a Sharia compliant "mortgage" will remove obstacles. I don't think there is any rule or law that would prevent such an arrangement.

A. I get bored at 3AM.

B. If there is no rule of law -- like the Civil Rights Act -- somebody needs to land on one side of the fence or the other. Sharia law is unconstitutional. But to make some $, it's okay?

Yet the confederate battle ensign has to come down and KKK people are trash.

We should probably rename this place the United States of Double Standards. All we are is a contradiction to the laws we claim to believe in.

[fj1200]

A. I get bored at 3AM.

B. If there is no rule of law -- like the Civil Rights Act -- somebody needs to land on one side of the fence or the other. Sharia law is unconstitutional. But to make some $, it's okay?

A. But you're not right at 3AM. :poke:

B. A Sharia mortgage is not unconstitutional just as Halal and Kosher are not unconstitutional.