Grounds for divorce

[Noir]

Given the 'traditional marriage / anti-equality marriage' tends to be a religious argument I think its a good time to examine divorce.

This link http://www.openbible.info/topics/divorce provides about 70 links to biblical verses mentioning divorce, though many overlap.

The 3 common 'acceptable' reasons seem to be
-Sexual immorality.
-Your non-religious partner leaves you.
-Your partner dies.

Though a few also mention that no reason is good enough, and one mentions that just thinking about another person lustfully is enough of a reason...

Quite a few verses also link to what jesus (supposedly) said

also came unto Him, testing Him and saying unto Him, “Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?” 4 And He answered and said unto them, “Have ye not read, that He that made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this cause shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh’? 6 Therefore they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” 7 They said unto Him, “Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement and to put her away?” 8 He said unto them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered you to put away your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Thoughts?
Should grounds for divorce be mentioned as acceptable in the bible, or be denied?
What is the concept of a traditional marriage when not paired with a traditional divorce?
Should divorce be treated only as a civil legal matter? Etc.

[jimnyc]

None of the above. Divorce is not acceptable at all within the Church. One can perhaps get an annulment, and then they would still need to seek a divorce from the courts. The Church has extremely limited reasons as to what they will grant an annulment for.


1) Absence of Reason. Either spouse or both spouses were inebriated, mentally ill, or unconscious during the marriage agreement (Canon 1095).
2) Ignorance. Either or both spouses were ignorant of the level of life-long or sacramental commitment demanded by marriage (Canon 1096, 1099).
3) Error or deception. Either or both spouses do not possess fundamental qualities they claimed (Canon 1097, 1098).
4) Exclusion of children. One spouse refuses to allow the creation of issue (Canon 1101).
5) Fear, One spouse was intimidated by others into accepting marriage (Canon 1103).

[tailfins]

Given the 'traditional marriage / anti-equality marriage' tends to be a religious argument I think its a good time to examine divorce.

This link http://www.openbible.info/topics/divorce provides about 70 links to biblical verses mentioning divorce, though many overlap.

The 3 common 'acceptable' reasons seem to be
-Sexual immorality.
-Your non-religious partner leaves you.
-Your partner dies.

Though a few also mention that no reason is good enough, and one mentions that just thinking about another person lustfully is enough of a reason...

Quite a few verses also link to what jesus (supposedly) said


Thoughts?
Should grounds for divorce be mentioned as acceptable in the bible, or be denied?
What is the concept of a traditional marriage when not paired with a traditional divorce?
Should divorce be treated only as a civil legal matter? Etc.

You raise an interesting question. My mother took constant beatings from 1937 to 1952. Being a good Baptist, divorce was out of the question. The told her husband "Beat on me all you want, but the minute you lay a hand on one of the kids, we're done." In 1952 he beat on my half brother and she divorced. While not directly mentioned, consider the verse below.


One could reasonably say that child abuse is grounds for divorce.


Luke 17:2King James Version (KJV)2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

[jimnyc]

You raise an interesting question. My mother took constant beatings from 1937 to 1952. Being a good Baptist, divorce was out of the question. The told her husband "Beat on me all you want, but the minute you lay a hand on one of the kids, we're done." In 1952 he beat on my half brother and she divorced. While not directly mentioned, consider the verse below.


One could reasonably say that child abuse is grounds for divorce.

It likely would, but not for an annulment. The grounds for divorce, legally speaking, and ground for divorce, religiously speaking, are far different from one another. Canon law is generally straight forward. Of course different denominations will handle things differently than the Catholic church. My parents were divorced. I think Dad was remarried in a Presbyterian church. No Catholic church would marry him again with such a divorce under his belt. So it's also not a one size fits all.

[indago]

Given the 'traditional marriage / anti-equality marriage' tends to be a religious argument I think its a good time to examine divorce.

This link http://www.openbible.info/topics/divorce provides about 70 links to biblical verses mentioning divorce, though many overlap.

The 3 common 'acceptable' reasons seem to be
-Sexual immorality.
-Your non-religious partner leaves you.
-Your partner dies.

Though a few also mention that no reason is good enough, and one mentions that just thinking about another person lustfully is enough of a reason...

Quite a few verses also link to what jesus (supposedly) said


Thoughts?
Should grounds for divorce be mentioned as acceptable in the bible, or be denied?
What is the concept of a traditional marriage when not paired with a traditional divorce?
Should divorce be treated only as a civil legal matter? Etc.

Rather than squabble over it...

Kids can be created in a lab. A "Birth Mother" is no longer necessary. When the fetus is full grown into a baby, it can be nurtured in the lab until it is old enough to be sent to an institution for training of the basics of life, where progress can be monitored for aptitude, and then sent to a specialized institution for advanced training in that aptitude, to be used for the advancement of society as an adult. The adult is free to associate with whomever, in whatever kind of relationship, and raising no children. That is done by the institutions.

It eliminates squabbling over:

• adoptions

• marriage license

• child custody

• schooling

• abortion

• unemployment

[Drummond]

I'm on difficult ground here. On the one hand, I understand what marriage vows are meant to mean, and that the prevalence, the ease, of divorce in these times seems to fly in the face of that. Which should prevail as the yardstick by which we all live ?

On Christian grounds, I should be at least broadly anti-divorce. But in all honesty, as a human being in my own right, I find it impossible.

I have a personal reason. My mother never did divorce my father -- though I wish she had. What she in fact did was suffer an abusive marriage. Eaely on in it, my father went in for physical abuse. Realising that this could rebound on him, he shifted tactics and went in for mental abuse instead.

The result of all of this was that my mother's life was ruined, wasted on scum. She lived a horrible life, died a horrible death.

For this reason, I'm as about as 'anti' the abuse of women as you could possibly imagine. I'll always be strongly motivated to defend any woman from male abuse, come-what-may. I am determined to be as unlike my father as it's possible to be. So .. I'm 'afraid' I must be strongly pro-divorce. I cannot abide where I know the alternative can lead.

By the way, if anyone has wondered .. yes. My father was a Leftie, and strong Trade Unionist. Yes, he also, on more than one occasion, said he had a respect for Libertarianism (he, too, saw it as LEFT wing).

Such is scum.

[Noir]

I have a personal reason. My mother never did divorce my father

Are you aware if the reason for not getting a divorce was religious?

[tailfins]

I'm on difficult ground here. On the one hand, I understand what marriage vows are meant to mean, and that the prevalence, the ease, of divorce in these times seems to fly in the face of that. Which should prevail as the yardstick by which we all live ?

On Christian grounds, I should be at least broadly anti-divorce. But in all honesty, as a human being in my own right, I find it impossible.

I have a personal reason. My mother never did divorce my father -- though I wish she had. What she in fact did was suffer an abusive marriage. Eaely on in it, my father went in for physical abuse. Realising that this could rebound on him, he shifted tactics and went in for mental abuse instead.

The result of all of this was that my mother's life was ruined, wasted on scum. She lived a horrible life, died a horrible death.

For this reason, I'm as about as 'anti' the abuse of women as you could possibly imagine. I'll always be strongly motivated to defend any woman from male abuse, come-what-may. I am determined to be as unlike my father as it's possible to be. So .. I'm 'afraid' I must be strongly pro-divorce. I cannot abide where I know the alternative can lead.

By the way, if anyone has wondered .. yes. My father was a Leftie, and strong Trade Unionist. Yes, he also, on more than one occasion, said he had a respect for Libertarianism (he, too, saw it as LEFT wing).

Such is scum.

I'm a product of my mom's second marriage. Both my parents were sticklers for rules. My dad was a police officer, very insistent on obeying the letter of the law. My mom was a stern Christian, giving no tolerance for immorality. My mom was happy to have a husband that played by the rules, even if he wasn't an emotional person. My dad politically was "law and order"; he particularly liked Richard Nixon. His reaction to Kent State was ,"finally, they put the hippies in their place". My mom was a New Dealer, RONALD Reagan was the first Republican she ever voted for.

[darin]

As far as christianity goes, divorce is or can be a sad event but its preferable to living with somebody who breaks their vows emotionally, physically, or morally. Christ doesnt give a shit - He wants you to love god and love others.

[Kathianne]

As far as christianity goes, divorce is or can be a sad event but its preferable to living with somebody who breaks their vows emotionally, physically, or morally. Christ doesnt give a shit - He wants you to love god and love others.
Yes, God wants you to do whatever you feel like. Got it.

[Noir]

As far as christianity goes, divorce is or can be a sad event but its preferable to living with somebody who breaks their vows emotionally, physically, or morally. Christ doesnt give a shit - He wants you to love god and love others.

It would appear for the quote in the OP that christ does care...would you consider that a mistranslation and thus misinterpretation, or that the quote itself was fabricated?

[Drummond]

Are you aware if the reason for not getting a divorce was religious?

Religion didn't enter into it. Neither my mother nor my father came from religious families, and this was reflected in their everyday lives. My mother felt that the existence of 'something', be it a god or something else we cannot comprehend even in conceptual terms, was likely .. that's as far as she ever got, so far as I'm aware. As for my father - he had no time for religion in any shape or form - or for anything outside of his mean and abusive 'spirit'.

So religion was not a factor.

No, my father systematically abused her mentally. Over the years, her self respect dwindled. She also had her own parents who felt that she'd be wrong to divorce, just because, in entering into marriage vows, she'd entered into an agreement that should be unbreakable. It was a question of being good to your word.

She paid quite a price for it. One I, frankly, do not defend at any level.

[red state]

Marriage and Baptism is symbolic of Christ uniting, never forsaking us and His resurrection.....Liberal pervert and twist everything they touch; just as the ARK and other things reflect CHRIST and are now perverted and SICK. This is why I can't stand homosexuals and liberals because THEY always strive to pervert the Bible and sacred symbols (like that TERRIBLE movie Russell Crow made)......a total perversion to the point that the symbolism and story resembles NOTHING of what it was meant for (add Rainbows in too)!!!!

Christ would never divorce His bride (the church) and divorce is not in God's vocabulary (or law)....that was a revised law from when Moses catered to the people. There is one story (Hosea, I believe) where his wife left him, became a whore and then a slave.......he still went out of his way to buy her back and keep her as his wife. A perfect reminder of how we ALL go astray and only by HIS grace & mercy (not our WORKS) can once again, become HIS and be rescued from the auction block of sin.

[darin]

It would appear for the quote in the OP that christ does care...would you consider that a mistranslation and thus misinterpretation, or that the quote itself was fabricated?

People confuse "put-away" with "divorce". People willfully refuse to understand context with regard to scripture - people don't give a measure of thought to what things meant to the people christ spoke with. Cultural differences dictate a filter we must use when reading scripture. People today love proof-reading scripture to create a checklist of "OMGWTF!SINZ!!!" and conversely, to find things to help them feel better "IF I do X, God will "Save me"".

Muslim and Christian slave-holders found justification within their sacred books. Same way folks seek justification for their point of view by nit-picking and basically using lack-of-understanding of Scripture - the specific words MORE than what the message was - to validate their choices.

People - even back then - looked for loopholes to protect their money. When a wife "cheated", she wasn't allowed a share of the family purse - the man was justified in keeping their assets. When a wife - in this case - committed porneia the husband was not at-fault for the divorce (thus could keep more/all the assets) because she had already dissolved the marriage through a new union.

But keep in mind this - The law of the day prevented marriage in certain regards. Further, men would divorce their wives and within the documents of divorce she was FORBIDDEN to re-marry. That was bullshit and I think that's what Christ's point was - Be GOOD to eachother. Marry somebody and love them. If you're on your third marriage and the first two ended with the wife being put-away, don't divorce again to go back and fix it - just understand christ wanted you - above EVERYTHING - to love God, and love others as yourself. In what you quoted, Christ was speaking in terms of ideals, coupled with the circumstances of societal and religious laws of the day.

[jimnyc]

I'm a firm believer in divorce in certain situations. I too don't think the intent was to force people to stay together for beatings, child abuse or any type of abuse, even mental abuse. But I FULLY understand WHY the idea is there to refrain from divorce. But I think it's crappy that if for a GREAT reason, some folks can't get back into the Catholic church fold if they do so.

My Dad was always a churchgoer growing up. We would visit my Grandma in south Jersey and bring her to church, as she never drove in her life. After the divorce, we still took her to church. I was very young, but I believe the priest embarrassed my Dad by bring up divorce in sinning in a rather not nice way, during services. I believe that was the last time Dad ever went into a Catholic church.

I think divorce is better than continuing harm. I think without it, it would do more harm to "family" and "society" than it would if some folks stayed together.

[Kathianne]

I'm a firm believer in divorce in certain situations. I too don't think the intent was to force people to stay together for beatings, child abuse or any type of abuse, even mental abuse. But I FULLY understand WHY the idea is there to refrain from divorce. But I think it's crappy that if for a GREAT reason, some folks can't get back into the Catholic church fold if they do so.

My Dad was always a churchgoer growing up. We would visit my Grandma in south Jersey and bring her to church, as she never drove in her life. After the divorce, we still took her to church. I was very young, but I believe the priest embarrassed my Dad by bring up divorce in sinning in a rather not nice way, during services. I believe that was the last time Dad ever went into a Catholic church.

I think divorce is better than continuing harm. I think without it, it would do more harm to "family" and "society" than it would if some folks stayed together.

It's not that difficult to get an annulment from the Catholic Church. It's not expensive either. It does take a lot of time and reflection though.

[jimnyc]

It's not that difficult to get an annulment from the Catholic Church. It's not expensive either. It does take a lot of time and reflection though.

Sometimes. But like my parents for example.... 20+ years of marriage, and if you get divorced for typical reasons - you'll likely never get an annulment under those circumstances. There are really a small amount of reasons that they will grant an annulment, and the amount of time generally matters too.

[Kathianne]

Sometimes. But like my parents for example.... 20+ years of marriage, and if you get divorced for typical reasons - you'll likely never get an annulment under those circumstances. There are really a small amount of reasons that they will grant an annulment, and the amount of time generally matters too.

Not exactly. Even if one has been 'cheating' there are ways. The biggest obstacle is basically writing out 'An Act of Confession.' It's certainly not pleasant. Unless one is going to remarry, there's really no reason to go through with it. Since the Church doesn't recognize the civil divorce, the only problem is if one wants to get married in the Church. One can still receive all the other sacraments.

[Gunny]

Rather than squabble over it...

Kids can be created in a lab. A "Birth Mother" is no longer necessary. When the fetus is full grown into a baby, it can be nurtured in the lab until it is old enough to be sent to an institution for training of the basics of life, where progress can be monitored for aptitude, and then sent to a specialized institution for advanced training in that aptitude, to be used for the advancement of society as an adult. The adult is free to associate with whomever, in whatever kind of relationship, and raising no children. That is done by the institutions.

It eliminates squabbling over:

• adoptions

• marriage license

• child custody

• schooling

• abortion

• unemployment

Are you for real?

[gabosaurus]

None of the above. Divorce is not acceptable at all within the Church. One can perhaps get an annulment, and then they would still need to seek a divorce from the courts. The Church has extremely limited reasons as to what they will grant an annulment for.

And to think that I once got flamed extensively for stating this exact thing.

In my view, you shouldn't get divorced just because you no longer share the same views and philosophies. Or, particularly, because your partner has gotten older or put on more pounds. Marriage is not a used car lot. You can't trade up.
If you feel like you no longer love your partner, fine. Move out. But divorce is not acceptable. Re-marriage is especially not acceptable.

[Gunny]

Given the 'traditional marriage / anti-equality marriage' tends to be a religious argument I think its a good time to examine divorce.

This link http://www.openbible.info/topics/divorce provides about 70 links to biblical verses mentioning divorce, though many overlap.

The 3 common 'acceptable' reasons seem to be
-Sexual immorality.
-Your non-religious partner leaves you.
-Your partner dies.

Though a few also mention that no reason is good enough, and one mentions that just thinking about another person lustfully is enough of a reason...

Quite a few verses also link to what jesus (supposedly) said


Thoughts?
Should grounds for divorce be mentioned as acceptable in the bible, or be denied?
What is the concept of a traditional marriage when not paired with a traditional divorce?
Should divorce be treated only as a civil legal matter? Etc.

Not if you talk to my grandmother. That ain't a good excuse either.

[darin]

It's more-sinful to create a list of things that allow for a divorce. It's dehumanizing and pathetic.

[Gunny]

It's more-sinful to create a list of things that allow for a divorce. It's dehumanizing and pathetic.

It's an excuse to dodge responsibility.

[jimnyc]

It's more-sinful to create a list of things that allow for a divorce. It's dehumanizing and pathetic.

I'm free of sin, I only copied that list of annulment allowances from elsewhere! I suppose that it's necessary for the catholic church to have such lists, and my only reason for supplying them here was to differentiate between what the CC sees as "acceptable" for a divorce/annulment, compared to many more reasons in civil courts.

[darin]

I'm free of sin, I only copied that list of annulment allowances from elsewhere! I suppose that it's necessary for the catholic church to have such lists, and my only reason for supplying them here was to differentiate between what the CC sees as "acceptable" for a divorce/annulment, compared to many more reasons in civil courts.

Jim, you're free of Sin because the "price" has already been paid :)

[Gunny]

I'm free of sin, I only copied that list of annulment allowances from elsewhere! I suppose that it's necessary for the catholic church to have such lists, and my only reason for supplying them here was to differentiate between what the CC sees as "acceptable" for a divorce/annulment, compared to many more reasons in civil courts.

YOU are free of sin. Well, crap, so am I then. :laugh:

[darin]

YOU are free of sin. Well, crap, so am I then. :laugh:

Bulllllllllllllllllllllshit....you're list is too long. ;)

:D

[jimnyc]

Jim, you're free of Sin because the "price" has already been paid :)

This is true I know, I just didn't want anyone to think I posted such a list as a "get out of divorce" card, or that it was a "condemn other divorces" card either. My Dad and brothers were all divorced and, well, at least I still like my Dad. :laugh2: j/k Jeff and John! :poke: :coffee:


YOU are free of sin. Well, crap, so am I then. :laugh:

Well, I am admittedly confused. I know we are born without sin and such, but I still thought we could sin going forward? The 10 commandments especially? I believe we can atone for our sins, but I thought we could still sin? Well, and I did make my confession in the past 5 years, which is a whole different "argument", as I have since talked to several folks who feel "man shouldn't confess to man" and other stances. So I really don't know where I stand with my sins. I've definitely sinned, make no mistake about that! LOL

And I have a serious question that doesn't sound serious. What if I thought of a sin AFTER confession? With a lot of them, sometimes you miss a few. It's not like a keep a list over the years, and it's not like I go very often. I think that was my first time in like 30 years?

[Drummond]

And to think that I once got flamed extensively for stating this exact thing.

In my view, you shouldn't get divorced just because you no longer share the same views and philosophies. Or, particularly, because your partner has gotten older or put on more pounds. Marriage is not a used car lot. You can't trade up.
If you feel like you no longer love your partner, fine. Move out. But divorce is not acceptable. Re-marriage is especially not acceptable.

Have you visited England yet ?

Seek out some of our Lefties. Then tell them that you're an American actively opposing the American Right wing. Then, give them as complete an account of what you believe in as you can .. & definitely including the above !! Trust me, you'll find it hard to persuade them that you're for real !

If you doubt me, try it out ! I dare you to.

[darin]

This is true I know, I just didn't want anyone to think I posted such a list as a "get out of divorce" card, or that it was a "condemn other divorces" card either. My Dad and brothers were all divorced and, well, at least I still like my Dad. :laugh2: j/k Jeff and John! :poke: :coffee:



Well, I am admittedly confused. I know we are born without sin and such, but I still thought we could sin going forward? The 10 commandments especially? I believe we can atone for our sins, but I thought we could still sin? Well, and I did make my confession in the past 5 years, which is a whole different "argument", as I have since talked to several folks who feel "man shouldn't confess to man" and other stances. So I really don't know where I stand with my sins. I've definitely sinned, make no mistake about that! LOL

And I have a serious question that doesn't sound serious. What if I thought of a sin AFTER confession? With a lot of them, sometimes you miss a few. It's not like a keep a list over the years, and it's not like I go very often. I think that was my first time in like 30 years?

The bible teaches we're born into Sin, actually.

But also Christ has paid whatever debt we owed. Christ told people to "..go away...and do not sin anymore" - but often that can be read as 'Stop putting yourself in situations where your actions and attitude hurt you!". Plus Christ compels people to God - whether we see it or not; and that's the key to "heaven" - to live your life loving other people. Failing that is not sin as in 'Now you're going to hell!' - but it's a part of normal failure common to all people.

[Noir]

None of the above. Divorce is not acceptable at all within the Church. One can perhaps get an annulment, and then they would still need to seek a divorce from the courts. The Church has extremely limited reasons as to what they will grant an annulment for.

What is the biblical reference to annulment?

[Kathianne]

What is the biblical reference to annulment?
The good thing about being Catholic, while Christ and the Bible are the touchstones, no one has ever accused the Church of being Bible centered, interpretation and 'laws' to help achieve intents have been codified. Canon law is most likely the most complicated in modern times-even surpassing the IRS codes. :laugh2: It behooves all to remember where 'Byzantine' comes from.

[SassyLady]

Given the 'traditional marriage / anti-equality marriage' tends to be a religious argument I think its a good time to examine divorce.

This link http://www.openbible.info/topics/divorce provides about 70 links to biblical verses mentioning divorce, though many overlap.

The 3 common 'acceptable' reasons seem to be
-Sexual immorality.
-Your non-religious partner leaves you.
-Your partner dies.

Though a few also mention that no reason is good enough, and one mentions that just thinking about another person lustfully is enough of a reason...

Quite a few verses also link to what jesus (supposedly) said


Thoughts?
Should grounds for divorce be mentioned as acceptable in the bible, or be denied?
What is the concept of a traditional marriage when not paired with a traditional divorce?
Should divorce be treated only as a civil legal matter? Etc.

Whether or not we think it is acceptable to be mentioned, it is mentioned at various times ... and like all things in the Bible, it's up for various interpretations. After all, the Bible is not one long quotation of what God actually said. It is stories told by men who naturally wrote down what they experienced from their own life experience at that time and place in human history. To me, if it were truly God's words, then it would have been told from the first person perspective. "And on the first day I created the heavens and earth, etc."

My belief is that God wants us to focus on living a spiritual life and if there are reasons within the marriage that prevents one from following this path, then those obstacles need to be removed. Especially if one is physically, mentally, sexually, or emotionally abused. If someone is experiencing this, or causing it, then it's time to end that relationship so one can have the emotional and mental focus to live as we were meant to. Being connected to God.

[jimnyc]

What is the biblical reference to annulment?

Canon law based on centuries of biblical studies. Argue with them if you like.

With all due respect, I don't need to prove that divorce is wrong mostly, but can be acceptable at times - so that you can turn around and say "Well, you guys dismiss gay marriage because of this... but you do "blah blah blah" about divorce..." At least that's my guess.

[tailfins]

What is the biblical reference to annulment?

None.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Some say God is love and that love is the most important part of life.

I would think that if one is not happy for whatever reason with ones husband or wife, then there can be no happiness in that home and that divorce would allow both parties to seek a loving mate and a happy relationship.

It sees that many Christians agree as the divorce rate in Christianity s quite high.

This indicates lack of faith as a faithful believer would not go against his or her God.

If you add in the huge abortion rate in Christianity, one has to wonder just how many Christian actually believe in God.

Statistics show 70 odd % of Christians supposedly believe in hell but the divorce and abortion statistics seem to show that they do no fear the hell they say they believe in.

Are there any here who are divorced and also believe in hell?

Are there any here who have give the ok to an abortion?

Regards
DL

[Abbey Marie]

Some say God is love and that love is the most important part of life.

I would think that if one is not happy for whatever reason with ones husband or wife, then there can be no happiness in that home and that divorce would allow both parties to seek a loving mate and a happy relationship.

It sees that many Christians agree as the divorce rate in Christianity s quite high.

This indicates lack of faith as a faithful believer would not go against his or her God.

If you add in the huge abortion rate in Christianity, one has to wonder just how many Christian actually believe in God.

Statistics show 70 odd % of Christians supposedly believe in hell but the divorce and abortion statistics seem to show that they do no fear the hell they say they believe in.

Are there any here who are divorced and also believe in hell?

Are there any here who have give the ok to an abortion?

Regards
DL

Citation for the bolded claim? Ratios compared to other faiths, no faith, etc.

[LongTermGuy]

Gnostic is back....http://www.glocktalk.com/images/smilies/timeforthat.gifhttp://glocktalk.com/images/smilies/uglylol.gif

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Citation for the bolded claim? Ratios compared to other faiths, no faith, etc.

Get your own stats as you may not like where I get mine.

My general estimate 50%.

What is yours?

Regards
DL

[jimnyc]

Get your own stats as you may not like where I get mine.

My general estimate 50%.

What is yours?

Regards
DL

http://i.imgur.com/3uwsiVU.jpg

[Abbey Marie]

Get your own stats as you may not like where I get mine.

My general estimate 50%.

What is yours?

Regards
DL


Oooh, too lazy, or do they not back up your claim?

If I make the statement, I'll get the stats. So far, it's all you.