Should The Jefferson Memorial Go Too? [Archive] - Debate Policy

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Kathianne

06-25-2015, 06:01 AM

This is problematic.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-thomas-jefferson-confederate-statues-20150624-story.html

Jefferson Memorial, Confederate statues enter national race debate

This week, the Jefferson Memorial was drawn into the national debate about race following the shooting deaths of nine people in a predominantly black church in South Carolina last week. It joins other public statues depicting Southern or Confederate figures, including Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee, that some are arguing represent the country's racist past and should be removed.

CNN anchor Ashleigh Banfield this week questioned whether the Jefferson Memorial should be taken down because Jefferson owned slaves. "There is a monument to him in the capital city of the United States. No one ever asks for that to come down," Banfield said.
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Fellow anchor Don Lemon responded by saying Jefferson represented "the entire United States, not just the South." But he added: "There may come a day when we want to rethink Jefferson. I don't know if we should do that."

...

Jeff

06-25-2015, 06:42 AM

Of course it should, hell we ought not have any statues ( monuments )other that a black fist, Black power baby , that is what your liberals and militant blacks want and the rest will cave and wipe their butts, but when the animals decide to join with the NBPP and kill all of the pecker woods because they are all slave owners I myself am going to enjoy those punk a$$ Liberals crying for help, I can hear it now, "please come help us, we will do any thing you want, we just need real men to help us " I think it will be the best Porno ever to watch the same folks they have been doing so righteous things for to rape and kill, shoot pop the popcorn I am going to watch the comedy on TV. :laugh:

LongTermGuy

06-25-2015, 07:43 AM

jimnyc

06-25-2015, 07:45 AM

Now this memorial? WTF? Might as well just rid the nation of all it's records and memories prior to 1900. Some of these people are sickening.

LongTermGuy

06-25-2015, 07:49 AM

Now this memorial? WTF? Might as well just rid the nation of all it's records and memories prior to 1900. Some of these people are sickening.

some folks seem to be itchin for trouble....and to stupid to comprehend what would happen if they finally open up the whole can-o-worms....

revelarts

06-25-2015, 08:09 AM

Should The Jefferson Memorial Go Too?

no.

the principals of gov't he stood for and the bill of rights.
that can go.
that won't offend ANYONE.

jimnyc

06-25-2015, 08:19 AM

Should The Jefferson Memorial Go Too?

no.

the principals of gov't he stood for and the bill of rights.
that can go.
that won't offend ANYONE.

And yet it DOES. Do their rights not to be offended count?

A flag = bad, but a slave owner is AOK! LOL I say remove it by sundown, maybe any portions of the COTUS he had a hand in as well!!

In his Notes, Jefferson contemporarily described blacks as inherently (fixed nature) inferior to whites in critical reasoning and beauty.[120] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery#cite_note-Ferling_2000_p163-120) Blacks, however, according to Jefferson were superior to whites in musical ability.[120] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery#cite_note-Ferling_2000_p163-120) Jefferson believed that the bonds of love for blacks were not as strong as the bonds of love for whites.[120] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery#cite_note-Ferling_2000_p163-120) According to one scholar, William Peden, this idea about fixed nature was Jefferson's rationalized (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_%28making_excuses%29) justification for the racial caste of slavery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery#Views_on_race

Jeff

06-25-2015, 08:28 AM

I say let Baltimore , Detroit, and Chicago all be the monuments for the blacks, we wont stop y'all from burning your neighborhoods and living like animals if y'all don't worry about us. Sounds reasonable to me, but of course in the black mind the crackers made them destroy everything they have, Dam Whitey !!!

Perianne

06-25-2015, 08:30 AM

...Dam Whitey !!!

I hate whitey! :)

revelarts

06-25-2015, 08:30 AM

And yet it DOES. Do their rights not to be offended count?

A flag = bad, but a slave owner is AOK! LOL I say remove it by sundown, maybe any portions of the COTUS he had a hand in as well!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery#Views_on_race

are you saying you agree with jefferson there Jim?
I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.

we all know that he owned slaves why would you feel it necessary to quote those racist views just now?

If you were talking to a jew would quote hitters views of Jews. when the jew brought up the law?

Jeff

06-25-2015, 08:35 AM

I hate whitey! :)

I have to spread them before giving them.

I hear ya, Dam Pecker woods, them sums a beotches think they should go to work and buy things to keep their homes nice, how dare them, they should be shot for not using the Government jobs, you know the job of unemployment, or the one of welfare , you know the really hard working folks ( standing in line every couple of months is tiring ) But these white devils want to have their dam heritage, well no way. Next they will thin they can have a white college fund, or a white Miss America, these dam Crackers is getting crazy, Black power baby, lets kill all them slave owning POS. :rolleyes:

Yes this was stupid, about as stupid as blacks demanding things and not even living in the state that has it.

jimnyc

06-25-2015, 08:38 AM

are you saying you agree with jefferson there Jim?
I'm not sure why you'd bring that up.

we all know that he owned slaves why would you feel it necessary to quote those racist views just now?

If you were talking to a jew would quote hitters views of Jews. when the jew brought up the law?

I'm saying IDIOTS are out there looking to do away with things from our American history and past, because they are whiners. YOU say it shouldn't come down, but you're far from alone.

And why do I quote them? To show off your hypocrisy, for whatever reason. Someone who LITERALLY fits the definition of a racist (thinking whites are superior) is cool with you, but someone who simply owns a flag TODAY is put under immediate suspicion by you.

And yet the black community is rather silent about black panthers, farrakhan, sharpton and jackson.... but things from well over 100 years ago, we can speak up about that!!

Tyr-Ziu Saxnot

06-25-2015, 08:58 AM

This is problematic.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-thomas-jefferson-confederate-statues-20150624-story.html

Remember when we predicted that obama being elected would lead to this even if not in his first term but would happen in his second?
This is exactly what Gaffer and I both predicted. We were on the exact same page where the "Dark Lord" was concerned.
The obama set the tone to advance all of this division and even has his "crews" out in hot spots stirring the flames.
I sure miss my pm'ing him..... he sure had his head screwed on straight and stood his ground.

The obama set the tone to advance all of this division and even has his "crews" out in hot spots stirring the flames.
He even sent crews into Israel to take down an allied leader! fact... -Tyr

Perianne

06-25-2015, 09:13 AM

Remember when we predicted that obama being elected would lead to this even if not in his first term but would happen in his second?
This is exactly what Gaffer and I both predicted. We were on the exact same page where the "Dark Lord" was concerned.
The obama set the tone to advance all of this division and even has his "crews" out in hot spots stirring the flames.
I sure miss my pm'ing him..... he sure had his head screwed on straight and stood his ground.

The obama set the tone to advance all of this division and even has his "crews" out in hot spots stirring the flames.
He even sent crews into Israel to take down an allied leader! fact... -Tyr

A am confident there is more to come from Obama. In these last few months of his presidency, he will reign terror upon the American people.

revelarts

06-25-2015, 12:54 PM

I'm saying IDIOTS are out there looking to do away with things from our American history and past, because they are whiners. YOU say it shouldn't come down, but you're far from alone.
Doubt many people think taking down the Jefferson and other revolutionary guys monuments is seriously going to get Anywhere, or is even reasonable to do.

but if a proposal like that is made some one on this board will find it.... and be outraged.

And why do I quote them? To show off your hypocrisy, for whatever reason. Someone who LITERALLY fits the definition of a racist (thinking whites are superior) is cool with you, but someone who simply owns a flag TODAY is put under immediate suspicion by you.Uh, Jefferson's DEAD and there are plenty of other things on his resume that make him worth some respect. I've been told by others that "they were men of their times" But that kind of thinking was being questioned even back then. Today the people who wave the flag around i have ZERO idea if they agree with his quote or they just like the warm southern feeling in their bellies cause they have a rebel flag.

sorry, people today don't get pass to hold a flag that has been held up as an AMEN to those 200 yr old racist ideas ever time they've been challenged.

end Slavery "No!" -cue- wave the rebel flag-
Let blacks live in peace and vote. "No!" -cue--wave the rebel flag-
Give blacks their civil rights. "No!" -cue--wave the rebel flag-
Let the Jews live in the area in peace. "No!" -cue--wave the rebel flag-
Let blacks go to the same schools. "No!" -cue--wave the rebel flag-

But today magically somehow "it's not a hate it's heritage" "I --a white person--- don't think about that other.."
Great i'm happy for you but you're being NIAVE to think others are just going look at it and automatically assume the very BEST.
sorry that's crazy. especially in the light of what's just happened.

if you can't understand that then well
maybe you just don't want to.

And yet the black community is rather silent about black panthers, farrakhan, sharpton and jackson.... but things from well over 100 years ago, we can speak up about that!!
when 9 people get killed and the guy that did it is waving a rebel flag LAST WEEK... as has been done at lynching and home burning and church bombings and slavery for 100s of years well... YES... the rebel flag becomes the topic of interest.
why in the world would that be?:eek:

the NEW Black panthers, well if many Blacks took them seriously they might say something.
Farrakhan? Farrakhan said what? the american flag is a flag of tyranny murder and death? really? He's been saying that for 30+ years. He's not going to stop. no matter who tells him.
Sharpton, Jackson? :rolleyes:.
Are they the cause of dead whites this week, are more police killing whites because of them. Have black kids gone to their websites and gotten guns and killed white people in churches?

For some reason Jim, I suspect if they got on TV today and Said "You kids need to stay calm, and treat people BETTER than they treat you." some here would say "THAT"S A CALL TO VIOLENCE!!!" SEE they want to kill us!!! AHHH!

you claim i'm sensitive But no matter WHAT Sharpton & Jackson say it's wrong by some people's standard. If they aren't in agreement with your POV they are racist. no, matter what they say.
i disagree with them and don't take them seriously often but you guys act like they are the voice of Moses for blacks or something. and run a 10 minute hate on those guy if they say anything you don't like. Most of the time i haven't even heard what they said or care. but you guys have your radar out for their every wrong word...
They said x and it's wrong or racist.... or at the wrong time... in the wrong way... to the wrong people or the best WHAT THEY REALLY MEANT WAS....

look whatever Jim

we disagree... i guess.
I'm NOT for removing the the Jefferson Memorial I don't think Sharpton and Jackson are either. you're the one listening to everything they say. Did they say take down the Jefferson memorial. if not. Is it possible that you might agree with them on that point?

Concerning Jefferson, Yes he was was a racist and an UNREPENTANT slave owner who had sex with his slaves. In many ways he was a sick SCUMBAG. But "he was a man of his time":rolleyes:
And he did help write some great documents on liberty and self governance and helped form one of the greatest forms of government on earth. He was not a saint, not even close but we should give credit where credit is due.

I've said that before, many time, I don't have to agree 100% with a person or their lives to give credit where credit is due.

But with the rebel flag and the confederacy, I can't think of 1 thing that's really praise worthy. except maybe misplaced loyalty. I ask for reasons in another thread and all i've gotten so far basically is stuff LIKE:
---It makes me feel good and they fought for something good... even though they weren't willing to give it to others.---
maybe you've got better I'm willing to hear it.

Thunderknuckles

06-25-2015, 01:24 PM

Concerning Jefferson, Yes he was was a racist and a an UNREPENTANT slave owner who had sex with his slaves. In many ways he was a sick SCUMBAG. But "he was a man of his time":rolleyes:
And he did help write some great documents on liberty and self governance and helped form one of the greatest forms of government on earth.

He was not a saint, not even close but we should give credit where credit is due.

Rev, I don't think many folks truly understand Jefferson's view on slavery. I have to vehemently disagree with your viewpoints here. Jefferson disliked slavery. He thought it a "moral depravity" and tried on 4 separate occasions to abolish it but was always overruled.

Also, Jefferson did not have sex with his slaves. He had a relationship with 1 slave and her name was Sally Hemings. Jefferson loved his wife dearly but when she died he became distraught and went into seclusion for a couple of years. It was his relationship with Sally Hemings that brought him out of it. But why her? As it turns out, she was not just any slave. She was his wife's half sister and was a close companion to his wife. It is also interesting to note that Hemings was mostly white and it is reasonable to assume she bore a resemblance to his late wife. Understanding this, it is easy to understand why he had a relationship with her after the death of his wife. It was not nearly as despicable as many would like to believe.

I suggest reading "Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power" by John Meacham. It recounts his life from birth to death and gives a deeper insight into his mind. A far cry from the typical rants and cliches you hear about him.

revelarts

06-25-2015, 02:01 PM

Rev, I don't think many folks truly understand Jefferson's view on slavery. I have to vehemently disagree with your viewpoints here. Jefferson disliked slavery. He thought it a "moral depravity" and tried on 4 separate occasions to abolish it but was always overruled.

Also, Jefferson did not have sex with his slaves. He had a relationship with 1 slave and her name was Sally Hemings. Jefferson loved his wife dearly but when she died he became distraught and went into seclusion for a couple of years. It was his relationship with Sally Hemings that brought him out of it. But why her? As it turns out, she was not just any slave. She was his wife's half sister and was a close companion to his wife. It is also interesting to note that Hemings was mostly white and it is reasonable to assume she bore a resemblance to his late wife. Understanding this, it is easy to understand why he had a relationship with her after the death of his wife. It was not nearly as despicable as many would like to believe.

I suggest reading "Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power" by John Meacham. It recounts his life from birth to death and gives a deeper insight into his mind. A far cry from the typical rants and cliches you hear about him.

I honestly wasn't aware of his attempts to abolish slavery, i'll have to look into that.
that's another point in his favor.

I have read several letters to and from him about his own slaves where his friends ask him to free his own slaves . bottom line He refused to do it. he was ask to free them in his will, he refused.
the ONLY founding father i know of who did free his slaves was Washington. And that was in his will. he's the Only one i know of that seemed to seriously struggle with it personally in a way that altered his actions.

Many founders writings seem to show that they were morally bothered by it and said things about how terrible it was but most seem to ACT as if it was a tolerable evil.

Concerning Hemmings, Well, I think it's kind to say that it was a "relationship" she was a slave.
and she was pregnant at a young age so to assume that it was completely consensual is giving Jefferson the benefit of the doubt. And i've read at lest one account of a Jefferson slave that a visitor met in his home serving table that the visitor wrote in his diary that the slave boy look so much like Jefferson in face and bearing that it shocked him.

so I can't say for sure and i don't want to make the man appear worse than he was but I don't want to sugar coat it either.

To me it seems that Hemming's was not in a position to refuse sex. And at that time the "relationship" was illicit in every way. Plus there may have been others.

it's not like Jefferson didn't have the opportunity to married another woman. OR live in France with Hemmings and marry her. if he loved her. the 'relationship" would have been less ill received there.

Thunderknuckles

06-25-2015, 02:36 PM

I honestly wasn't aware of his attempts to abolish slavery, i'll have to look into that.

I have read several letters to and from him about his own slaves where his friends ask him to free his own slaves . bottom line He refused to do it. he was ask to free them in his will, he refused.
the ONLY founding father i know of who did free his slaves was Washington. And that was in his will. he's the Only one i know of that seemed to seriously struggle with it personally in a way that altered his actions.

Many founders writings seem to show that they were morally bothered by it and said things about how terrible it was but most seem to ACT as if it was a tolerable evil.

Concerning Hemmings, Well, I think it's kind to say that it was a "relationship" she was a slave.
and she was pregnant at a young age so to assume that it was completely consensual is giving Jefferson the benefit of the doubt. And i've read at lest one account of a Jefferson slave that a visitor met in his home serving table that the visitor wrote in his diary that the slave boy look so much like Jefferson in face and bearing that it shocked him.

so I can't say for sure and i don't want to make the man appear worse than he was but I don't want to sugar coat it either.

To me it seems that Hemming's was not in a position to refuse sex. And at that time the "relationship" was illicit in every way. Plus there may have been others.

it's not like Jefferson didn't have the opportunity to married another woman. OR live in France with Hemmings and marry her. if he loved her. the 'relationship" would have been less ill received there.
Agreed on the freeing of his slaves. He did, in fact, refuse to do it. I can understand why he didn't do it while he was alive, but it is puzzling after his death. My only explanation is they were needed in order to shore up his vast debt upon his death. The man was horrible with money.

On slavery, here's a good link to start with:
http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-slavery

As to Hemings, Jefferson did have 6 children with her. As to the nature of their relationship, it is interesting to note that Jefferson asked her to stay with him in France and Sally refused to, wanting to go home to her children. That is something that is simply not done between slave and slave master. Jefferson pushed the matter and Sally agreed to stay on 1 condition: that Jefferson free her children upon his death. Jefferson agreed to the bargain and held true to his word. Again, not something done between a simple slave and slave master. We have to see Hemmings through the lense of her being a family member. She was Jefferson's sister in law and this certainly held sway in how he dealt with her. But, the laws of the day said that if you were born from a slave, as was Sally, then you were a slave as well. You a right though that in the end, she was a slave and Jefferson could have done anything he wanted with her. I truly beloved he cared for her and wonder what his answer would be if asked the question "why didn't you free her from the start?"

gabosaurus

06-25-2015, 03:00 PM

No. You can't erase history. There will always be idiots who try to lean too far in one direction or another.
The Confederate Battle Flag has been targeted because it has lost its original meaning and purpose to those who have appropriated it as a sign of hatred and bigotry.
That doesn't mean we should be getting rid of Confederate war memorials, statues and period works of film and literature.

I think everyone needs to take a step back, chill out and watch "Blazing Saddles" and "Confederate States of America" (aka "CSA").

Perianne

06-25-2015, 03:05 PM

revelarts

06-25-2015, 03:18 PM

Agreed on the freeing of his slaves. He did, in fact, refuse to do it. I can understand why he didn't do it while he was alive, but it is puzzling after his death. My only explanation is they were needed in order to shore up his vast debt upon his death. The man was horrible with money.

On slavery, here's a good link to start with:
http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-slavery

As to Hemings, Jefferson did have 6 children with her. As to the nature of their relationship, it is interesting to note that Jefferson asked her to stay with him in France and Sally refused to, wanting to go home to her children. That is something that is simply not done between slave and slave master. Jefferson pushed the matter and Sally agreed to stay on 1 condition: that Jefferson free her children upon his death. Jefferson agreed to the bargain and held true to his word. Again, not something done between a simple slave and slave master. We have to see Hemmings through the lense of her being a family member. She was Jefferson's sister in law and this certainly held sway in how he dealt with her. But, the laws of the day said that if you were born from a slave, as was Sally, then you were a slave as well. You a right though that in the end, she was a slave and Jefferson could have done anything he wanted with her. I truly beloved he cared for her and wonder what his answer would be if asked the question "why didn't you free her from the start?"

"why didn't you free her from the start?"
very good question.

But it's very interesting to me that all this detailed information about their "relationship", what 'he said' and what 'she said' in France or else where is now presented as historical. when just a few years ago, if i remember correctly , people and some historians were in full denial of the relationship altogether.

Now that's confirmed in many ways but where are the detail of these French conversations from?

it's easy enough to determine if she went to France and came back and that a mother wants to be with her children i suppose. But all that other. Did Jefferson write that down? or is that the story past down via the Hemmings family? did a french maid overhear the conversation at dinner and write for posterity?

i have to say i'm skeptical of the details there.

Thunderknuckles

06-25-2015, 03:29 PM

Now that's confirmed in many ways but where are the detail of these French conversations from?

it's easy enough to determine if she went to France and came back and that a mother wants to be with her children i suppose. But all that other. Did Jefferson write that down? or is that the story past down via the Hemmings family? did a french maid overhear the conversation at dinner and write for posterity?

i have to say i'm skeptical of the details there.
Excellent question. I'm getting that info from the book I posted about earlier. I have it at home and will reference that portion to see what resources Meacham uses to back up the assertion.

aboutime

06-25-2015, 03:37 PM

Truth is, with threads like this, where stupid idea's are being bantered around...Get rid of the Jefferson Memorial...for starters; This kind of stuff, silliness, ignorance, and whatever else we can call it...actually provides more proof about my constant comments.

Namely. Is our nation so full of absolutely uneducated, easily-led, ignorant people today, that such things are actually being discussed, or demanded?

I believe it proves, in a nutshell. Our education system in this nation has deteriorated to beyond 3rd, or even 4th World nation eligibility.

When we agree to get rid of History in any way. We doom our children to STUPIDITY.

Jeff

06-26-2015, 05:54 AM

And who would those people be?

Don't hold your breath for a answer from the far most authority on everything. I will answer for her, WHITEY, anyone that believes in American History and has morals, anyone that believe America is good !!