Confederate Flag... WHY

[revelarts]

OK well lets see how this goes.

Confederate Flag
For some, it is seen as primarily a symbol of racism .
For others, it is merely a symbol of a heritage that should be embraced.
Sadly, too many people refuse to even acknowledge the other side's point of view.
I think there's a 3rd way to look at it too.
As a symbol of southern rowdiness and personal toughness rebellion and cool.

I suspect that a lot of those people that fly it, wear it, etc. don't really know or care that much about the real history. It's more of a status symbol like a Harley Davison motorcycle logo. or flashing gang symbols and color but never even seriously considering being in a REAL gang, or thinking about what gangs really do. Or like a rebellious kid just flipping the bird at the world at this point because they are told it's wrong.But the Heritage bit is real in many minds though, and i think most people get that to a degree.
But i have a hard time with it because at base the south was trying to maintain african slavery. so the heritage is overshadowed with corruption. i have a hard time understanding how people can IGNORE the millions in slavery for 300 years to laser focus and celebrate the 4 years of war, soldiers and generals prancing around to maintain it.

I just don't see what they are so proud OF.
Is it the fact that they tried to create a new country.... to maintain slavery?
is it that they fought well... to maintain slavery?
Is it that they honored their principals... the idea that slavery was a God given constitutional state right?

I just can't mentally HONESTLY separate the confederacy from it's purpose and goals.

I think we in U.S. and especially in the south have grown up with the confederacy as such a NORMAL backdrop that we allow the darkness of it to fade or be ignored for the sake of not hurting people feelings who genuinely attach benign WORTH to the men and women of the rebellion and confederacy.

Maybe it's time we can start to be more honest, I've heard many times that some tire of herring about slavery.
saying stuff LIKE "It was 180 yeeeeears ago. get over it, move on, your not a slave , i'm not a slave owner".
Ok yep sure.
But many still want to fly old Confederate flag and wear T shirts, stickers etc of a nation that only lasted 4 years and has been dead for 180 years. And they get upset if we don't want to support the display of it's paraphernalia all over gov't buildings and in the streets and lanes and homes everyday.

OK, As history it is what it is. But at this point should people be embracing THAT particular "heritage"?
Are we far enough away to see it for what it was. do we really WANT to embrace that?

When we look at the founding fathers we often hear people say "well they were men of their times" when making excuses for their slavery.
But they embraced many other HIGHER and better ideals, qualities, and deeds that are outstanding and well worth embracing and remembering outside of that, inspite off that.

So Ok we come to the Confederates. "They were men of their times" OK So we may want to give them a bit of a pass as well. But it seems their ONLY significant actions and ideals embraced slavery. What are the redeeming qualities NOT connected to slavery that we look up to there? What would compel us fly their flags and honor them with monuments on the grounds of our state capitals? Our, homes, trucks, t-Shirt and tattoos?
Tariff revolt? Southern flavor?

Am i missing something?
Or are we just to meant completely ignore the 300 years of horrors of slavery and all the southern talk of slavery and ONLY ever think of the great Confederate.... what?

[tailfins]

If flying the Confederate flag gives someone joy, why do you want to rain on their parade?

[revelarts]

If flying the Confederate flag gives someone joy, why do you want to rain on their parade?
Christmas trees and easter eggs bring people joy too right?

look I'm against Banning for personal use.
But I'm wondering what the emotional attachment is ABOUT.
why does it bring them joy?

people say it's "heritage" WHAT heritage are they thinking of?
or is it just a just vague emotional attachment?

[Perianne]

I have said before that I view the Confederate flag as a symbol of what might have been. And that does not include slavery, but instead a life free of Washington. I view it as a dream land, free of liberalism and everything else that is wrong with the nation. Perhaps it would not have been Nirvana as it is in my dreams, but we will never know, will we? Lincoln killed all those people so he could force them to be part of a nation they didn't want to be in. Northern people tend to be condescending to Southerners and that continues to fan the flames of dislike. To me banning the Confederate flag is just one more thing the northern people want to take away from us.

Only (some) Southerners truly understand its symbolism. I don't really know how to explain it.

[revelarts]

I have said before that I view the Confederate flag as a symbol of what might have been. And that does not include slavery, but instead a life free of Washington. I view it as a dream land, free of liberalism and everything else that is wrong with the nation. Perhaps it would not have been Nirvana as it is in my dreams, but we will never know, will we? Lincoln killed all those people so he could force them to be part of a nation they didn't want to be in. Northern people tend to be condescending to Southerners and that continues to fan the flames of dislike. To me banning the Confederate flag is just one more thing the northern people want to take away from us.

Only (some) Southerners truly understand its symbolism. I don't really know how to explain it.

Ok so you do just ignore the slavery bits,
and imagine a dream constitutional southern country without northerners figuratively pissing on legal rights and southern culture.
OK
I'd suspect that's probably specific to you. but maybe not.

Do you understand that others don't see that, not even close.
I see the flag see slavery and read the confederate constitution and imagine slavery in the south into the 1940 and 50s.
A nightmare country. I was born and raised in Virginia. so it's not a yankee thing to me.

[Kathianne]

I'm not going to say I 'get' the Confederate flag, I don't. I do know that many blacks see it as a desire to return to the days of slavery. Not saying they're right, just what I've read.

I've also read that many believe it stands for 'rebels' and 'freedom from tyranny.' Not saying they're right either.

My own feelings are that it shouldn't be flying on state buildings, though I think that removing statues and such is beyond what is reasonable. I don't like decisions being made in the wake of the horror of Charleston. Removing statues, portraits, even the flag will not change what happened. However it certainly will alienate those who are certain that the government is out to get them.

[Perianne]

Ok so you do just ignore the slavery bits,
and imagine a dream constitutional southern country without northerners figuratively pissing on legal rights and southern culture.
OK
I'd suspect that's probably specific to you. but maybe not.

Do you understand that others don't see that, not even close.
I see the flag see slavery and read the confederate constitution and imagine slavery in the south into the 1940 and 50s.
A nightmare country. I born and raised in Virginia. so it's not a yankee thing to me.

Yes, right or wrong, I do ignore the slavery issue. It is not an issue to me, though I understand why it is to others.

I think it is unrealistic to see slavery extending into WWII. I suspect it would have ended by 1880 at the worst. Neither of us will ever know.

[LongTermGuy]

​This is not about no Flag...ignore the spin...I feel things should be left as they were...and Blacks complaining should look into "their own racial issues" concerning racism...America has a "black" president...a congressional black caucus ...black miss America...black this and black that... black controlled cities..plenty of Gov Black assistance...along with the black on black crime....and black high crime rates....Wanna get real?....stop pointing fingers...and look in the mirror....

*Enough of this Left leaning agenda "white guilt Garbage" push....

[revelarts]

But I like my "Black" flag and stuff.
enough of this BLACK guilt... Arrrr!:rolleyes:

[revelarts]

Yes, right or wrong, I do ignore the slavery issue. It is not an issue to me, though I understand why it is to others. I think it is unrealistic to see slavery extending into WWII. I suspect it would have ended by 1880 at the worst. Neither of us will ever know.

Maybe, and you're right we won't know thankfully.
But based on what was in the confederate constitution and the attitudes written by many in the south. I don't see them having any kind of Southern Abolition movement that'd have been taken seriously for 20 years or more. It took England 50 years to end slavery through the parliament and that came with Herculean effort lead by ONE guy in parliament who dedicated his life in parliament to getting it done. In Brazil it was like 1880s and that was through a near monarchy just deciding and then having to fight his rich subjects to get it done more or less i believe.

And there's still Slavery today even in the U.S.. There's no telling what an unmolested southern culture could have crafted slavery into or for how long.

[red state]

Look into my eyes and DEEP down these barrels cuz I'm gonna say this one last time:
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.a33%2bouRU18hmkYIV9wQ4Tw&pid=15.1&P=0

I didn't give a rip about the Confederacy or ever owned a slave.....don't even agree with slavery (AT ALL) but when they came on to my farm, burned my home, raped my wife and took everything that was dear to me or ever will be......that is when I joined up with those like me....those who simply wanted to be left alone to worship as we deemed fit, speak our mind, build a cake for whomever we wanted or didn't want to bake a cake for or have a right to use these two barells on whomever tried to take them or regulate the hell out of them. I don't need any more taxes or one-sided treatment simply because I'm white, Italian, Scot, Irish or Cherokee......or who ever the hell I wanna be.

Don't make me say it again.

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.nUPcdmyrlG8O1m3gc40M1g&pid=15.1&P=0

This flag is a symbol of brave men who died for something that Americans should be rising up against TODAY.

[Jeff]

Rev the best I can tell you is move to a state that doesn't have the flag on it's state house grounds, OO wait you don't live in that state, so maybe live and let live, take care of you and yours and others will take care of theirs, why worry about whats happening 500 miles away from you that has no bearing at all on you, if SC disgust you so much, don't go there, boycott it. Yes the Blacks did Boycott it to get the flag off the top of the state house, now you want it gone altogether, well I want the punk thugs hanging on the street corners downtown gone, do I get my wish, I want folks to quit wearing it's a black thing Tee shirts, do I get my wish, I want there to be a white Miss America, a white college fund, affirmative action for whites , the list goes on and on, do I get my wish ?

[Kathianne]

Well it's not just the 'Rednecks' who have some less than stellar thinkers on their side, nope.

It seems to me that there are people with feelings on both sides of the issue of The Confederate Flag that have voices that want/need to be heard. It also seems to me that both sides have folks 'on their side' they'd really like to STFU. Why? Not because they are 'like the crazy uncle in the attic,' rather they are themselves hateful, as in this case, Farrakhan:

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/06/24/farrakhan-i-dont-get-debate-over-confederate-flag-we-need-to-put-the-american-flag-down/


Louis Farrakhan stated “We need to put the American flag down. Because we’ve caught as much hell under that as the Confederate flag” in remarks before the Metropolitan AME Church in Washington, DC on Wednesday first reported by DC’s WMAL (http://www.wmal.com/2015/06/24/listen/).
Farrakhan said, “White folks march with you because they don’t want you upsetting the city, they don’t give a damn about them nine.”
He added that when the police took suspected shooter Dylann Roof to Burger King they were saying “You did a good job. Kill all them [bleep.]”
Later, he declared, “I don’t know what the hell the fight is about over the Confederate flag. We need to put the American flag down. Because we’ve caught as much hell under that as the Confederate flag,” comments that were meant with cheers and applause. He added, “Who are we fighting today? It’s the people that carry the American flag.”

[Kathianne]

It's not more or less fair to allow haters to stand for any whole group, but when there's a significant 'white' voice, the major media will be all over it. Not so much when it's minority haters, whom also do not represent the reasonable larger part of their group. The difference today though is that these minority groups are only covered by 'alternative media' to any degree:

http://www.wnd.com/2015/06/finish-the-mission-kill-slave-masters/


The New Black Panther leader whose party at one point offered a $10,000 reward for George Zimmerman, (http://www.christianpost.com/news/black-panthers-10000-bounty-to-capture-george-zimmerman-dead-or-alive-was-from-2012-video-100428/)“dead or alive,” before Zimmerman was acquitted of all charges in Trayvon Martin’s death now is rhapsodizing about the possibility of violence against “slave masters” in connection with the murders of nine people at a church in Charleston, South Carolina.At a rally there on Tuesday, Malik Zulu Shabazz called for the completion of the mission of Denmark Vesey, a slave who strategized to kill slave masters nearly two centuries ago when the church where the nine were murdered was being founded.

Breitbart (http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2015/06/24/black-panther-chairman-complete-charlestons-slave-rebellions-plan-to-kill-all-the-slave-masters/)reported that Shabazz also played a “prominent role in the Baltimore and Ferguson uprisings,” and now heads a group called Black Lawyers for Justice.

It was a “Save the Black Church” rally Tuesday, not far from Mother Emanuel AME Church, the scene of an attack at a prayer meeting allegedly perpetrated by Dylann Roof, now under arrest and facing nine counts of murder, as well as possible hate-crime counts from the federal government.
It was also just one of two recent incidents where black activists made suggestive comments. In fact, the promotion by Louis Farrakhan, a Nation of Islam leader, of his coming “Justice … or else!” event was being called out by another black activist over the threatening nature.

“It’s these type of threats against white Americans and this country that is causing other white people to become angry and fed up,” said Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, chief of Brotherhood Organization of a New Destiny, (http://www.bondinfo.org/content/about-us) about Farrakhan’s comments. He compared Farrakhan with South Carolina mass murder suspect Dylann Roof for making “serious terrorist threats” about violence.


“Vesey had a plan to kill all the slave masters in the state,” Shabazz said at his rally. “All of their [expletive deleted] families. We need some Denmark Veseys today. We got to complete what Denmark didn’t finish.”

He led the crowd in a chant of “Black power” and “by any means.” And continued with another, “What do we want? Justice, When do we want it? Now.”

“We came to change the order here,” he said. “We don’t forgive nobody.”

...

It seems to me that people of Goodwill need to stand up against those that are hateful, whatever color they are or whatever their politics are.

It might seem asinine to many that some folks want to 'cling to' the Confederate Flag.
It might seem asinine to many that some folks want to 'cling to' African symbols of which they have no knowledge of, sometimes not even knowing what they purport to be one thing, were actually not.

If the folks doing the 'clinging' are generally good people, others of Goodwill should at least not ridicule or question their motives without some attempts at understanding.

Charleston is the most recent example of people of Goodwill standing against the haters.

When those voices are legion, the country will heal.

[revelarts]

Look into my eyes and DEEP down these barrels cuz I'm gonna say this one last time:

I didn't give a rip about the Confederacy or ever owned a slave.....don't even agree with slavery (AT ALL) but when they came on to my farm, burned my home, raped my wife and took everything that was dear to me or ever will be......that is when I joined up with those like me....those who simply wanted to be left alone to worship as we deemed fit, speak our mind, build a cake for whomever we wanted or didn't want to bake a cake for or have a right to use these two barells on whomever tried to take them or regulate the hell out of them. I don't need any more taxes or one-sided treatment simply because I'm white, Italian, Scot, Irish or Cherokee......or who ever the hell I wanna be.

Don't make me say it again.

This flag is a symbol of brave men who died for something that Americans should be rising up against TODAY.
it seems people get upset just to have the question asked?
but OK
So you ignore the aspects of slavery attached to the flag.
And think of it as if you were a southern man 150 years ago who didn't own slaves and you imagine that the north burned your home and raped your wife, and took everything that was dear to you. wouldn't let you worship, or speak, make a cake the way you please, or own a gun.

And they regulated, and taxed you unfairly,

so FOR YOU the Flag is a symbol of freedom against aggressive an corrupt gov't.

i hear what your saying. But again it seems you must ignore part of the history "don't give a rip" about others, the slaves who were raped, taken from homes, refused self protection etc etc for generations.
and under who's flag and gov't it was meant to continue.
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.nUPcdmyrlG8O1m3gc40M1g&pid=15.1&P=0

[revelarts]

Rev the best I can tell you is move to a state that doesn't have the flag on it's state house grounds, OO wait you don't live in that state, so maybe live and let live, take care of you and yours and others will take care of theirs, why worry about whats happening 500 miles away from you that has no bearing at all on you, if SC disgust you so much, don't go there, boycott it. Yes the Blacks did Boycott it to get the flag off the top of the state house, now you want it gone altogether, well I want the punk thugs hanging on the street corners downtown gone, do I get my wish, I want folks to quit wearing it's a black thing Tee shirts, do I get my wish, I want there to be a white Miss America, a white college fund, affirmative action for whites , the list goes on and on, do I get my wish ?


Here i just asked WHY people like the flag Jeff.
WHAT about it's "Heritage" is so compelling and how can it honestly be separated it from slavery?

simply questions
do you want to give your answer?

[revelarts]

It seems to me that people of Goodwill need to stand up against those that are hateful, whatever color they are or whatever their politics are.

It might seem asinine to many that some folks want to 'cling to' the Confederate Flag.
It might seem asinine to many that some folks want to 'cling to' African symbols of which they have no knowledge of, sometimes not even knowing what they purport to be one thing, were actually not.

If the folks doing the 'clinging' are generally good people, others of Goodwill should at least not ridicule or question their motives without some attempts at understanding.

Charleston is the most recent example of people of Goodwill standing against the haters.

When those voices are legion, the country will heal.


amen

[Jeff]

Here i just asked WHY people like the flag Jeff.
WHAT about it's "Heritage" is so compelling and how can it honestly be separated it from slavery?

simply questions
do you want to give your answer?

Rev people are proud of it, many believe it is part of their southern heritage, and others like me have no like or dis like for it other than it stands for rebels, Yes there is no doubt some use it for ugly hatred no doubt, but Rev the black fist held in the air is quickly becoming another sign of hatred, do we cut every black persons right hand off because of it, of course not, so why punish every southerner do to a few ??

See Rev the further you get into the South the prouder folks are to live here, I have tried to explain to people how beautiful NYC is at Christmas time and have been told by many they will never go further north that the SC line or GA line, depending on where you live, heck we where hanging out one night, I guess it was about 10 hardcore rednecks and 3 of them where as black as the ace of spades, the word nigger was used from time to time but never to belittle anyone, the black guys there where just as proud as the whites and they honestly felt more like brothers than most brothers do, see Rev a lot of folks put that racist trash behind them, if you find folks from SC or GA that have never been out of the state, heck they don't think about color, I have worked and played with many a black guys that consider themselves rednecks, right down to the flag in their back window of their pick ups. And of course you also have those that are racist, both black and white, but many ( if not all ) have left the south and moved north for school or to live with a family member, see Rev this hatred for the flag isn't coming from the southern states near as much as it is from outside agitators.

[red state]

Well it's not just the 'Rednecks' who have some less than stellar thinkers on their side, nope.

It seems to me that there are people with feelings on both sides of the issue of The Confederate Flag that have voices that want/need to be heard. It also seems to me that both sides have folks 'on their side' they'd really like to STFU. Why? Not because they are 'like the crazy uncle in the attic,' rather they are themselves hateful, as in this case, Farrakhan:

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/06/24/farrakhan-i-dont-get-debate-over-confederate-flag-we-need-to-put-the-american-flag-down/


I agree; those yankees you mentioned having less than stellar thinking....always knew that about yankees.

[red state]

Rev the best I can tell you is move to a state that doesn't have the flag on it's state house grounds, OO wait you don't live in that state, so maybe live and let live, take care of you and yours and others will take care of theirs, why worry about whats happening 500 miles away from you that has no bearing at all on you, if SC disgust you so much, don't go there, boycott it. Yes the Blacks did Boycott it to get the flag off the top of the state house, now you want it gone altogether, well I want the punk thugs hanging on the street corners downtown gone, do I get my wish, I want folks to quit wearing it's a black thing Tee shirts, do I get my wish, I want there to be a white Miss America, a white college fund, affirmative action for whites , the list goes on and on, do I get my wish ?

:clap::clap::clap::clap: At least that many! :beer:

[LongTermGuy]

Rev the best I can tell you is move to a state that doesn't have the flag on it's state house grounds, OO wait you don't live in that state, so maybe live and let live, take care of you and yours and others will take care of theirs, why worry about whats happening 500 miles away from you that has no bearing at all on you, if SC disgust you so much, don't go there, boycott it. Yes the Blacks did Boycott it to get the flag off the top of the state house, now you want it gone altogether, well I want the punk thugs hanging on the street corners downtown gone, do I get my wish, I want folks to quit wearing it's a black thing Tee shirts, do I get my wish, I want there to be a white Miss America, a white college fund, affirmative action for whites , the list goes on and on, do I get my wish ?


:clap::clap::clap:

Dont forget ...."My people" ​Black Panthers gone....Black congressional Caucus gone....Nothing but stupidity and racism from both these entities...

@Olivia posted this in funny pictures and wanted to "share"....


http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7393&stc=1

[aboutime]

All of us, as Americans need to know, and understand. If the government is successful, in one, or all fifty states to remove THIS FLAG. Consider how Emboldened those Government politicians will become later...when they listen to all of the WHINING, INSULTED, OFFENDED...as they are doing today, and the AMERICAN STARS AND STRIPS become the next target....to Appease the Few who are. BOUND AND DETERMINED....like Obama. To Destroy this nation.

Think about it. Pretending is WON'T HAPPEN is as dangerous, and welcome as it gets to our Enemies, here, and around the world.
I personally am really sick, and disgusted with PHONIES who always must bow down, and play their games of Hatred...and THERE ARE A FEW MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM...who I am speaking about.

Just watch, and listen. They know who they are. Don't they Rev???

[LongTermGuy]

All of us, as Americans need to know, and understand. If the government is successful, in one, or all fifty states to remove THIS FLAG. Consider how Emboldened those Government politicians will become later...when they listen to all of the WHINING, INSULTED, OFFENDED...as they are doing today, and the AMERICAN STARS AND STRIPS become the next target....to Appease the Few who are. BOUND AND DETERMINED....like Obama. To Destroy this nation.

Think about it. Pretending is WON'T HAPPEN is as dangerous, and welcome as it gets to our Enemies, here, and around the world.
I personally am really sick, and disgusted with PHONIES who always must bow down, and play their games of Hatred...and THERE ARE A FEW MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM...who I am speaking about.

Just watch, and listen. They know who they are. Don't they Rev???

​Rush Predicted this 2 day ago....and its already started...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=25&v=XnFWylrETL8

[aboutime]

​Rush Predicted this 2 day ago....and its already started...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=25&v=XnFWylrETL8


Wow! God Help us All. And, for those who do not believe there is a God. You're on your own.

[revelarts]

Rev people are proud of it, many believe it is part of their southern heritage, and others like me have no like or dis like for it other than it stands for rebels, Yes there is no doubt some use it for ugly hatred no doubt, .....



Confederate Flag
For some, it is seen as primarily a symbol of racism .
For others, it is merely a symbol of a heritage that should be embraced.
Sadly, too many people refuse to even acknowledge the other side's point of view.
I think there's a 3rd way to look at it too.
As a symbol of southern rowdiness and personal toughness rebellion and cool.

I suspect that a lot of those people that fly it, wear it, etc. don't really know or care that much about the real history. It's more of a status symbol like a Harley Davison motorcycle logo. or flashing gang symbols and color but never even seriously considering being in a REAL gang, or thinking about what gangs really do. Or like a rebellious kid just flipping the bird at the world at this point because they are told it's wrong. .....

So it's sorta what i said at 1st. right?




....but Rev the black fist held in the air is quickly becoming another sign of hatred, do we cut every black persons right hand off because of it, of course not, so why punish every southerner do to a few ??
All I asked in this thread is why people love it so much sheesh don't be so defensive.

so jeff Do you want to ban the fist raised in the air or the use of it on tee, and shirts etc.!!! Why punish every Black person...

i suspect your answer is, no. you don't want to ban it.

I've said at least 5 or 6 times maybe more that I DON"T WANT to ban the flag for personal use.
i just don't want to see it on State property. that's my opinion. Do you want to see the Black panther flag flying on a state capital lawn in any state in country. I suspect your answer is, NO. if not h3ll no. Maybe you'll claim you don't care if you don't live there. ok fine.
But I care if illegal immigrant cross the broader in Texas or Arizona, or if the Nebraska Public schools begin to teach that pedophillia is an OK lifestyle. I have opinions on what should happen in states i don't live in. Maybe you don't.

[LongTermGuy]

<time class="entry-date date updated" datetime="2015-06-25T14:49:13+00:00" pubdate="" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); text-decoration: none; outline: none; -webkit-tap-highlight-color: rgb(99, 99, 99); font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; border-image-source: initial; border-image-slice: initial; border-image-width: initial; border-image-outset: initial; border-image-repeat: initial; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;">Jun 25, 2015 (http://newsone.com/date/2015/06/25/):
</time>
"Louis Farrakhan: Blacks “Have Caught As Much Hell” Under American Flag “As The Confederate"
https://ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/e010149-e1435250705873.jpg?w=749&h=500

In the wake of controversy over the Confederate flag (http://newsone.com/3130081/list-of-major-retailers-states-removing-confederate-flag/) in South Carolina, Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan is calling for the removal of the American flag across the nation, saying Blacks have suffered as much under the U.S. symbol of justice as they did under the rebel flag that symbolizes slavery and indoctrinated racism, according to WMAL radio (http://www.wmal.com/2015/06/24/listen/).
Farrakhan was in Washington, D.C., Wednesday to join faith leaders at Metropolitan AME Church in a talk about October’s Millions for Justice Mobilization march in the city when the subject turned to the Charleston church massacre (http://newsone.com/3130121/south-carolina-lawmaker-blames-ame-victims-for-number-of-dead/).

“I don’t know what the hell the fight is about over the Confederate flag,” he said speaking in his trademark Baptist minister timbre.
“We need to pull the American flag down because we’ve caught as much hell under that as the Confederate flag,” he said to applause and cheers."

http://newsone.com/3132068/louis-farrakhan-blacks-have-caught-as-much-hell-under-american-flag-as-confederate/

[Gunny]

Ok so you do just ignore the slavery bits,
and imagine a dream constitutional southern country without northerners figuratively pissing on legal rights and southern culture.
OK
I'd suspect that's probably specific to you. but maybe not.

Do you understand that others don't see that, not even close.
I see the flag see slavery and read the confederate constitution and imagine slavery in the south into the 1940 and 50s.
A nightmare country. I was born and raised in Virginia. so it's not a yankee thing to me.

Try educating yourself. The South and that battle standard have NOTHING to do with slavery and you're turning into one dumbass, broken record that doesn't know what you're talking about and you have lost this argument at EVERY turn so give yourself a rest, Might Mouth.

[Gunny]

I'm not going to say I 'get' the Confederate flag, I don't. I do know that many blacks see it as a desire to return to the days of slavery. Not saying they're right, just what I've read.

I've also read that many believe it stands for 'rebels' and 'freedom from tyranny.' Not saying they're right either.

My own feelings are that it shouldn't be flying on state buildings, though I think that removing statues and such is beyond what is reasonable. I don't like decisions being made in the wake of the horror of Charleston. Removing statues, portraits, even the flag will not change what happened. However it certainly will alienate those who are certain that the government is out to get them.

Your second paragraph would be right. The VERY SAME reasons the colonies fought a war against King George III. We WERE English citizens and chose to commit treason for that very reason -- freedom from tyranny. The South did EXACTLY the same thing. Most Southerners didn't have slaves, nor could they afford them, but they weren't going to let a bunch of bureaucrats in Washington come tell them what they can do in their own yards.

The loss wasn't just for the South. The loss was for the entire population of the United States because it basically nullified the 10th Amendment and said morons like Obama could dictate to states whatever he feels like.

Some of us STILL believe in that 10th Amnedment to the US Constitution and THAT is what the Confederate battle standard represents. It represents slavery only to uneducated rubes like Rev who just buy off on the party line instead of reading a damned book. He probably believes Custer was a hero and Wyatt Earp was a good guy too.

[aboutime]

So it's sorta what i said at 1st. right?



All I asked in this thread is why people love it so much sheesh don't be so defensive.

so jeff Do you want to ban the fist raised in the air or the use of it on tee, and shirts etc.!!! Why punish every Black person...

i suspect your answer is, no. you don't want to ban it.

I've said at least 5 or 6 times maybe more that I DON"T WANT to ban the flag for personal use.
i just don't want to see it on State property. that's my opinion. Do you want to see the Black panther flag flying on a state capital lawn in any state in country. I suspect your answer is, NO. if not h3ll no. Maybe you'll claim you don't care if you don't live there. ok fine.
But I care if illegal immigrant cross the broader in Texas or Arizona, or if the Nebraska Public schools begin to teach that pedophillia is an OK lifestyle. I have opinions on what should happen in states i don't live in. Maybe you don't.


REV. Unlike you, and others like you. We honky, cracker types you must always argue with...Really would like to stop being reminded, at every turn...how you must always bring up the Slavery aspects of our History.
Truth seems to be. From the way you sound. You do not want us to forget the History about slavery by making ALL OF US, who aren't you...responsible for what took place in the past.
Frankly rev. I'm really disgusted with constantly being blamed for what took place so long ago. I thought when Obama was elected...he would help ALL OF US heal, and MOVE ON to present day efforts to STOP ALL OF THE SLAVERY BULLSHIT, once and for all. But YOU, and others just can't allow past history to Rest...can YOU?
You sound like Jesse Jackson, who lives, and survives on REMINDING all of us Terrible light skinned people how terrible HE WANTS US TO BE...to fill his BANK ACCOUNT with Pity Money, and Blackmail accounts that WE must always be accused of doing...but...it's 2015, and that just can't fly IF ALL OF YOU NEED TO BE PERMANENT VICTIMS OF THE SLAVERY YEARS...none of us had anything to do with so long ago.
Further. YOU, and the Jesse Jacksons DO NOT WANT US to talk, discuss, or reason by daring to talk about the RACISM you need to be proliferated into eternity. So...nobody wins, but the BANK ACCOUNTS of pity keep getting larger.
Now...go right ahead and call me a racist if you want. The TRUTH always hurts anyway.

[Gunny]

Yes, right or wrong, I do ignore the slavery issue. It is not an issue to me, though I understand why it is to others.

I think it is unrealistic to see slavery extending into WWII. I suspect it would have ended by 1880 at the worst. Neither of us will ever know.

I agree. My folks were too poor to own any slaves. Slavery would have ended in the 1880s-1890s due to mechanization. The fact is, slave owners would have been able to make more money with machines.

They also would have made more money had they treated them like the US did blacks and Irish immigrants. Why own them when you can just treat them like shit, call it something other than slavery, when it was actually a worse Hell than slavery. At least Southern slave owners admitted they owned the slaves and were responsible for them. Something sweatshops in the North DID NOT do.

[Gunny]

REV. Unlike you, and others like you. We honky, cracker types you must always argue with...Really would like to stop being reminded, at every turn...how you must always bring up the Slavery aspects of our History.
Truth seems to be. From the way you sound. You do not want us to forget the History about slavery by making ALL OF US, who aren't you...responsible for what took place in the past.
Frankly rev. I'm really disgusted with constantly being blamed for what took place so long ago. I thought when Obama was elected...he would help ALL OF US heal, and MOVE ON to present day efforts to STOP ALL OF THE SLAVERY BULLSHIT, once and for all. But YOU, and others just can't allow past history to Rest...can YOU?
You sound like Jesse Jackson, who lives, and survives on REMINDING all of us Terrible light skinned people how terrible HE WANTS US TO BE...to fill his BANK ACCOUNT with Pity Money, and Blackmail accounts that WE must always be accused of doing...but...it's 2015, and that just can't fly IF ALL OF YOU NEED TO BE PERMANENT VICTIMS OF THE SLAVERY YEARS...none of us had anything to do with so long ago.
Further. YOU, and the Jesse Jacksons DO NOT WANT US to talk, discuss, or reason by daring to talk about the RACISM you need to be proliferated into eternity. So...nobody wins, but the BANK ACCOUNTS of pity keep getting larger.
Now...go right ahead and call me a racist if you want. The TRUTH always hurts anyway.

Slavery was an accepted practice back then. It's as simple as that. Rev wants to judge people THEN by today's standards. He has no concept of time and tries to use dishonest relevance to make his arguments.

Try explaining to someone born and raised in SC or GA in the 1820's slavery was bad when it's all they every knew. Try explaining to a kid NOW that living on their cell phones is stupid.

As I have repeatedly said, everywhere rev posts his lie, slavery was an excuse for the North to weaken the South where it counts -- in their wallets. So in reality, the war was fought to "free slaves" according to yankees, so they could enslave entire states?

How's THAT for some hypocrisy?

[Drummond]

Revelarts ... this is one of those debates where I'm unavoidably an 'outsider'.

But this much seems, to me, to be true ...

You, Revelarts, see the Confederate flag in a particular way. You ally certain associations with it, and 'run' with them to concoct your argument.

But in doing all this, you're letting your Leftie instincts get the better of you. Those thoughts, associations, emotional connotations you personally argue to be relevant, you then INSIST absolutely MUST seem every bit as relevant to others.

It doesn't matter to you that other people have different associations, AND A RIGHT TO THEM. You'd rather see YOURS prevail, it seems to me. And, for why ?

To do what the Left specialises in ... to establish 'cause' for an almighty guilt trip, for issues which have NO RELEVANCE WHATEVER to the conduct and mindset of those alive today ????

Ridiculous.

[Perianne]

Drummond, you are the man!

[Gunny]

Revelarts ... this is one of those debates where I'm unavoidably an 'outsider'.

But this much seems, to me, to be true ...

You, Revelarts, see the Confederate flag in a particular way. You ally certain associations with it, and 'run' with them to concoct your argument.

But in doing all this, you're letting your Leftie instincts get the better of you. Those thoughts, associations, emotional connotations you personally argue to be relevant, you then INSIST absolutely MUST seem every bit as relevant to others.

It doesn't matter to you that other people have different associations, AND A RIGHT TO THEM. You'd rather see YOURS prevail, it seems to me. And, for why ?

To do what the Left specialises in ... to establish 'cause' for an almighty guilt trip, for issues which have NO RELEVANCE WHATEVER to the conduct and mindset of those alive today ????

Ridiculous.

I just wish he'd stick to one thread instead of creating more and more about the same thing.

[Drummond]

I just wish he'd stick to one thread instead of creating more and more about the same thing.

Well, Lefties have their agendas to advance. If at first they don't succeed, they go in for saturation bombing.

Failure in making others think as they do, just isn't an option !!

[Drummond]

Drummond, you are the man!

- :cool:Flatterer !!!

[Olivia]

You know what makes me sick? People who automatically assume the confederate flag is racist. None of us alive today ever owned a slave. None alive today ever was a slave. We are a nation of freedom. We allow people from other countries to come here and hoist their flag. We don't burn them. We believe in the constructional right of ever Americam freedom of speech and expression. It's really no one's business why some people love the confederate flag. They just do. All this bullshit over that flag and the use of the words "racist South" is going to come back and bite the insane liberals in their ass.

[Perianne]

You know what makes me sick? People who automatically assume the confederate flag is racist. None of us alive today ever owned a slave. None alive today ever was a slave. We are a nation of freedom. We allow people from other countries to come here and hoist their flag. We don't burn them. We believe in the constructional right of ever Americam freedom of speech and expression. It's really no one's business why some people love the confederate flag. They just do. All this bullshit over that flag and the use of the words "racist South" is going to come back and bite the insane liberals in their ass.

I pray you are right.

[Drummond]

You know what makes me sick? People who automatically assume the confederate flag is racist. None of us alive today ever owned a slave. None alive today ever was a slave. We are a nation of freedom. We allow people from other countries to come here and hoist their flag. We don't burn them. We believe in the constructional right of ever American freedom of speech and expression. It's really no one's business why some people love the confederate flag. They just do. All this bullshit over that flag and the use of the words "racist South" is going to come back and bite the insane liberals in their ass.:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Great post !!

[Drummond]

I pray you are right.

Ditto !:goodposting:

[Perianne]

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

Great post !!

Olivia is a diamond. I love her.

[LongTermGuy]

You know what makes me sick? People who automatically assume the confederate flag is racist. None of us alive today ever owned a slave. None alive today ever was a slave. We are a nation of freedom. We allow people from other countries to come here and hoist their flag. We don't burn them. We believe in the constructional right of ever Americam freedom of speech and expression. It's really no one's business why some people love the confederate flag. They just do. All this bullshit over that flag and the use of the words "racist South" is going to come back and bite the insane liberals in their ass.

Well said and agree Olivia....to some (true racists) who are to stupid to know any better and still blame folks today for their lack of "total" knowledge of the past ... its all about entitlement and a chance to get more by stirring the shit soup.... to the majority of "others" its an "agenda" to keep the "Plantation" together...hate of the mostly Conservative south....and hate of the "white man"...to keep the racial divide alive...*instead of trying to work thinks out like intelligent human beings...Black folks have come a long way since Africa.....I don't see the humans in Africa evolving...no matter how much money is thrown at it...that speaks for itself. Black folks really have it good here and should keep in mind where the majority of the money comes from for entitlements and not point fingers and look in the mirror at bettering their own lives....The white man will help them with sincerity if they give it a try....

[DragonStryk72]

OK well lets see how this goes.

Confederate Flag
For some, it is seen as primarily a symbol of racism .
For others, it is merely a symbol of a heritage that should be embraced.
Sadly, too many people refuse to even acknowledge the other side's point of view.
I think there's a 3rd way to look at it too.
As a symbol of southern rowdiness and personal toughness rebellion and cool.

I suspect that a lot of those people that fly it, wear it, etc. don't really know or care that much about the real history. It's more of a status symbol like a Harley Davison motorcycle logo. or flashing gang symbols and color but never even seriously considering being in a REAL gang, or thinking about what gangs really do. Or like a rebellious kid just flipping the bird at the world at this point because they are told it's wrong.But the Heritage bit is real in many minds though, and i think most people get that to a degree.
But i have a hard time with it because at base the south was trying to maintain african slavery. so the heritage is overshadowed with corruption. i have a hard time understanding how people can IGNORE the millions in slavery for 300 years to laser focus and celebrate the 4 years of war, soldiers and generals prancing around to maintain it.

I just don't see what they are so proud OF.
Is it the fact that they tried to create a new country.... to maintain slavery?
is it that they fought well... to maintain slavery?
Is it that they honored their principals... the idea that slavery was a God given constitutional state right?

I just can't mentally HONESTLY separate the confederacy from it's purpose and goals.

I think we in U.S. and especially in the south have grown up with the confederacy as such a NORMAL backdrop that we allow the darkness of it to fade or be ignored for the sake of not hurting people feelings who genuinely attach benign WORTH to the men and women of the rebellion and confederacy.

Maybe it's time we can start to be more honest, I've heard many times that some tire of herring about slavery.
saying stuff LIKE "It was 180 yeeeeears ago. get over it, move on, your not a slave , i'm not a slave owner".
Ok yep sure.
But many still want to fly old Confederate flag and wear T shirts, stickers etc of a nation that only lasted 4 years and has been dead for 180 years. And they get upset if we don't want to support the display of it's paraphernalia all over gov't buildings and in the streets and lanes and homes everyday.

OK, As history it is what it is. But at this point should people be embracing THAT particular "heritage"?
Are we far enough away to see it for what it was. do we really WANT to embrace that?

When we look at the founding fathers we often hear people say "well they were men of their times" when making excuses for their slavery.
But they embraced many other HIGHER and better ideals, qualities, and deeds that are outstanding and well worth embracing and remembering outside of that, inspite off that.

So Ok we come to the Confederates. "They were men of their times" OK So we may want to give them a bit of a pass as well. But it seems their ONLY significant actions and ideals embraced slavery. What are the redeeming qualities NOT connected to slavery that we look up to there? What would compel us fly their flags and honor them with monuments on the grounds of our state capitals? Our, homes, trucks, t-Shirt and tattoos?
Tariff revolt? Southern flavor?

Am i missing something?
Or are we just to meant completely ignore the 300 years of horrors of slavery and all the southern talk of slavery and ONLY ever think of the great Confederate.... what?

Well, as a new yorker by birth, I have a slightly different take away. First off, the north owned slaves all throughout the war and afterwards. Hell, Delaware didn't ratify the 13th amendment until 1901.

Then, it turns out that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't free anybody. It specifically freed southern slaves.... y know those folks the union had no control over at the time because they'd seceded?

The 13th amendment didn't happen until 1865, and the freed blacks weren't even given equAl rights until 1868.

There were more freed blacks in the south than in the north.

And then there were the northern atrocities against the south during and after the war. So,you know what? If they found a symbol to get behind to hold onto their sense of dignity and prjde, I'll let them have it.

[Gunny]

How about you racist, PC white and black trash stop trying to completely erase our heritage over the act of one moron?

I'm about sick of listening to you fucking losers.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well it's not just the 'Rednecks' who have some less than stellar thinkers on their side, nope.

It seems to me that there are people with feelings on both sides of the issue of The Confederate Flag that have voices that want/need to be heard. It also seems to me that both sides have folks 'on their side' they'd really like to STFU. Why? Not because they are 'like the crazy uncle in the attic,' rather they are themselves hateful, as in this case, Farrakhan:

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/06/24/farrakhan-i-dont-get-debate-over-confederate-flag-we-need-to-put-the-american-flag-down/

Farrakan preaches pure hatred and the overthrow by violence the United States government yet is left completely unmolested by the government--we should be asking why that is.. .
Where he a White KKK guy he'd been taken done by the Feds long before now. --Tyr

[Jeff]

So it's sorta what i said at 1st. right?



All I asked in this thread is why people love it so much sheesh don't be so defensive.

so jeff Do you want to ban the fist raised in the air or the use of it on tee, and shirts etc.!!! Why punish every Black person...

i suspect your answer is, no. you don't want to ban it.

I've said at least 5 or 6 times maybe more that I DON"T WANT to ban the flag for personal use.
i just don't want to see it on State property. that's my opinion. Do you want to see the Black panther flag flying on a state capital lawn in any state in country. I suspect your answer is, NO. if not h3ll no. Maybe you'll claim you don't care if you don't live there. ok fine.
But I care if illegal immigrant cross the broader in Texas or Arizona, or if the Nebraska Public schools begin to teach that pedophillia is an OK lifestyle. I have opinions on what should happen in states i don't live in. Maybe you don't.

Why punish every white person because a few made the flag a symbol of racism, and yes if you want the flag gone so bad I want every black person to give up their right hand, hell they made it a symbol of racism, silly isn't it Rev.

[revelarts]

Why punish every white person because a few made the flag a symbol of racism, and yes if you want the flag gone so bad I want every black person to give up their right hand, hell they made it a symbol of racism, silly isn't it Rev.
your not reading what i said

[aboutime]

your not reading what i said


rev. Even if you ignore me here. Someone else will see what I am saying. So, I am asking you. WHY do you feel such a need to constantly be inciting more argument, rather than honestly trying to help become a source of resolution to the problems....it seems, you enjoy regurgitating, and sounding like only you are capable of offering your own solutions?
If you, rev. Were honestly trying to help solve the racial problems WE ALL KNOW exist. It would be more honorable of you to be receptive to offers of ways to help ELIMINATE the problems you seem to relish...much like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and Obama.

But it seems to me. There is no way any racial problems WILL, or CAN be solved, so long as someone stands to profit from the HATRED, and ENDLESS bigotry...from Within. Namely, Black Americans who always deny they can be as racist as white folks. But...WE BOTH KNOW...that ain't Gonna Happen. Don't we rev?

[revelarts]

Revelarts ... this is one of those debates where I'm unavoidably an 'outsider'.
But this much seems, to me, to be true ...
You, Revelarts, see the Confederate flag in a particular way. You ally certain associations with it, and 'run' with them to concoct your argument.But in doing all this, you're letting your Leftie instincts get the better of you. Those thoughts, associations, emotional connotations you personally argue to be relevant,

my historical argument you mean.
are you denying the fact that it was used for the very purposes i stated?
It was/is seen and used that way by whites not by me.
I did not "concoct" the flag symbolism, it's associations or emotional connotations.

In the killing in Charleston it was a WHITE kid Roof who USE the symbolism of the flag as racist. As a WELL known Racist symbol to WHITES and BLACK on the left and right. It's not as if people on the Right who LIKE the flag in a benign way don't know it's other connotations.
the LEFT didn't tell him what the symbol meant to him, he knows the history as a racist symbol and he HONORED that heritage.

in 1940s the dixiecrats (southern racist democrats) adopted the flag as they promoted racial segregation and opposed laws against lynching blacks. And against truman who had proposed military integration and anti-lycthing laws. At the Democratic convention July 1948, nine southern states backed Georgia’s Senator Russell over Truman, parading around the floor behind a waving Confederate flag to the strains of Dixie. The university of Mississippi which rarely used the flag before 1948 began using it more as it protested Pres Truman's actions. In 1962 the university of Mississippi allowed it's 1st black person to attend and the whites on campus rioted and hung the confederate flag out of windows on campus. In Alabama the Gov. Wallace raised the confederate flag over the capitol in protest of Desegregation of schools. It wasn'tt there before. The main flags we see the KKK fly are the Confederate flags. since the 1870s its flown at lynchings, home burnings, synagog attacks, and the like well into the 1970s. Even in Germany skinheads and neo-Nazis have been known to use the Confederate flag because symbols of Nazi Germany are banned. And it was a battle flag that flew over a nation dedicated to the perpetuation of african slavery and white supremacy.
Am i concocting anything here?

Is it only personally relevant Drumond? There are White people like ROOF that TODAY flew that flag for the EXACT same reason as he did. the above is historically and currently relevant and meaningful to any honest person seems to me.



...you then INSIST absolutely MUST seem every bit as relevant to others.
If you honestly look at my replies to others POVS on the flag what i did was simply POINT OUT that their happy warm fuzzy view IGNORES the historical and PRESENT connotation of the flag by other whites.
I insisted on nothing.
They are free to have their view and ignore the dark side if they like.




It doesn't matter to you that other people have different associations, AND A RIGHT TO THEM.
If i didn't care about their view i wouldn't have asked them to explain it to me.
I explained my view and hoped other would do the same so i might get better understanding of their thoughts.



You'd rather see YOURS prevail, it seems to me. And, for why ?
the name of the site is WHAT Drummond DEBATE policy. Of course i'd like to see my view prevail. and you'd like your view to prevail and everyone elsewhere the same i suspect.
(Really i'd like to see the truth, facts, reason and Christian morals and kindness prevail in most cases but lies, emotion, tradition, and partisan BS usually wins the day in most people minds.)



To do what the Left specialises in .,
it really does still amaze me. your 2 dimentional world view of Left Right. I've really NEVER seen anything like it, it's unreal.



.. to establish 'cause' for an almighty guilt trip for issues which have NO RELEVANCE WHATEVER to the conduct and mindset of those alive today ????
Ridiculous.
you see it does have relevance to the conduct and MINDset of those alive today. 9 people are dead in South Carolina TODAY because of the mindset that the flag represented to him and thousands/millions(?) of others over the years. That's the point Drummond you don't get to brush that off the table without leaving a trail of blood. And the flag is drenched in blood. if people want to ignore it that's there business But it should NOT be flying over Officail U.S. state, local or federal buildings. because the historical ann current symbolism is a FACT not just personal opinion. It means hate. that IS one of it's meanings. it's not erased because SOME people ignore it. or don't like it. It may Also mean Momma's milk and Apple Pie AS well. But the fact is it's a 2 sided coin.

Look no ones going to DIE if it's removed but some may live if some idiot isn't helped along and given a backhanded or unintended thumbs up by the gov't flying a flag he sees as a signal for killing blacks and jew.


...............
As a sidebar just for you Drummond.
Let me say this.
Correct me if i'm wrong but you condemn Islam and Muslim WHOLESALE.
You don't differentiate much between a "moderate" muslim or a "radical" muslim a Sunni or Shia or Wahabbi.
You see them as terrorist or at the very least destroying western nations in general.

Why do you Put ALL Muslims on a guilt trip Drummond?!
"It doesn't matter to you that other people have different associations" with Islam, "AND A RIGHT TO THEM!"
............
A sidebar #2 for others.
some here are for torture, and have said "if it SAVED ONE LIFE" then it's worth it.
if removing the flag from gov't property SAVES ONE LIFE. is it worth it? is that sacrifice so hard to make

[tailfins]

When someone wants to ban the Confederate flag, I get the idea they want to rub it in the Southern people's that they are conquered people. The focus is to humiliate and belittle.

[revelarts]

When someone wants to ban the Confederate flag, I get the idea they want to rub it in the Southern people's that they are conquered people. The focus is to humiliate and belittle.

why can't it be to not encourage other racist idiots to Kill blacks and Jews?

I don't care about belittling southerns i could care less about the "southern pride" schtick.
just as others say they ignore the racist connotations of the flag. I don't have a THOUGHT about southern pride or "heritage". whatever that means.
southern HISTORY I care about . that "southern warm fuzzy" I'm not sure what that is. .whatever enjoy it. i don't care.

What i see is a flag flown for 150 years that nearly always around when people want to start sh---ing on and killing Blacks and Jews.
I'd just rather not see it on gov't bldgs.

but it's a free country and I'll say for the 100th time.
keep it on your lawns on your foreheads, toilets seats, dogs, whatever.
just take it off of gov't bldgs please thanks

the end

[Max R.]

When someone wants to ban the Confederate flag, I get the idea they want to rub it in the Southern people's that they are conquered people. The focus is to humiliate and belittle.
Not just banning the flag, but attempting to erase all memory of the CSA. God save me from politically correct idiots.

[jimnyc]

Now a woman has climbed the flagpole today, broke the law, and removed the flag herself. Would have been awesome if she fell and cracked her egg. Anyway, backup already. It will have to be done the legal way for that state. I guess it is SO harmful that suddenly it needs to come down by all or any means.

http://news.yahoo.com/woman-removes-confederate-flag-front-sc-statehouse-111505200.html

[aboutime]

Let's just get to the bottom of this right now. The predominant racists, both black, and white in this nation are...as some have said; just using the Flag Issue as another STUPID, RACIST, IDIOTIC, LIBERAL excuse to get attention.

Can ANYONE in America, or around the World show....WHEN ANY FLAG, has ever committed a crime?

[DragonStryk72]

why can't it be to not encourage other racist idiots to Kill blacks and Jews?

I don't care about belittling southerns i could care less about the "southern pride" schtick.
just as others say they ignore the racist connotations of the flag. I don't have a THOUGHT about southern pride or "heritage". whatever that means.
southern HISTORY I care about . that "southern warm fuzzy" I'm not sure what that is. .whatever enjoy it. i don't care.

What i see is a flag flown for 150 years that nearly always around when people want to start sh---ing on and killing Blacks and Jews.
I'd just rather not see it on gov't bldgs.

but it's a free country and I'll say for the 100th time.
keep it on your lawns on your foreheads, toilets seats, dogs, whatever.
just take it off of gov't bldgs please thanks

the end

Okay, so basically, we should, and let me see if I have this straight, go along with the North's propaganda machine that it stands for slavery (This is one of those oh so nice and cheerful things the North was doing post-war, right along with teaching everyone it was all about slavery, and how the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves).

I refuse, refuse, to support the removal of properly learned history to assuage the pricked prides of people. The flag didn't kill anyone, a person killed other people, and the battle flag had nothing whatsoever to do with it. I'm not for torture, for a myriad of moral/ethical reasons (It also doesn't really work, so there's also rational/logical.)

Now, there's also the fact that it's above a Civil War memorial to the Confederates that lost their lives, so I'm not seeing where the issue lies.

[revelarts]

Okay, so basically, we should, and let me see if I have this straight, go along with the North's propaganda machine that it stands for slavery (This is one of those oh so nice and cheerful things the North was doing post-war, right along with teaching everyone it was all about slavery, and how the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves).

I refuse, refuse, to support the removal of properly learned history to assuage the pricked prides of people. The flag didn't kill anyone, a person killed other people, and the battle flag had nothing whatsoever to do with it. I'm not for torture, for a myriad of moral/ethical reasons (It also doesn't really work, so there's also rational/logical.)

Now, there's also the fact that it's above a Civil War memorial to the Confederates that lost their lives, so I'm not seeing where the issue lies.


I'm still waiting for a historical rebut to my thread here on the south andslavery
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?50282-Civil-War-began-because-of-Slavery


But was Roof Reading the Norths propaganda machine? the KKK?
Did George wallace when he raised it over the capital in protest of integration?
Did ol Miss U. when the students rioted and hung it out the window in protest of it's 1st black student?
Did the south consult the north on the battle flag and it's defense of slavery?

what properly learn history are you defending
I don't understand what your talking about DS.
it makes no sense.

[revelarts]

“I’ve never heard of any other cause than slavery,”
wrote Confederate commander John S. Mosby.

South Carolina's reasons for secession
...A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that “Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free,” and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction. This sectional combination for the submersion of the Constitution, has been aided in some of the States by elevating to citizenship, persons who, by the supreme law of the land, are incapable of becoming citizens; and their votes have been used to inaugurate a new policy, hostile to the South, and destructive of its beliefs and safety.

Mississippi's reasons for secession
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery—the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin…

Louisiana's reasons for secessionAs a separate republic, Louisiana remembers too well the whisperings of European diplomacy for the abolition of slavery in the times of an*nexation not to be apprehensive of bolder demonstrations from the same quarter and the North in this country. The people of the slave holding States are bound together by the same necessity and determination to preserve African slavery.
__________________

[revelarts]

the editors of the Richmond-based Southern Punch in 1864:
” ‘The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankeeland. . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.”


Confederate veteran Ed Baxter unashamedly told a reunion in 1889:
“In a word, the South determined to fight for her property right in slaves; and in order to do so, it was necessary for her resist the change which the Abolitionists proposed to make under the Constitution of the United States as construed by them. . . Upon this issue the South went to war, I repeat that the people of the South had the right to fight for their property”. .

[revelarts]

FYI I
just a place holder for some historical research for me//
please don't take offense.
curious about the history. what the creators and 1st adopters thought.



http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Confederate_Battle_Flag
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-Eaters

....Wikipedia articles on the Confederate flags and William Miles. In a nutshell, Miles was a white supremacist who thought slavery was a "Divine institution" and that, "Men are created neither Free nor Equal." He was a Fire Eater, a group of extreme secessionists who not only supported slavery but wished to resume the slave trade with Africa. It is absolutely clear that his secessionist ideas were rooted in the idea of white superiority and anti-abolition beliefs.
He headed up the committee that designed the Confederate flags. Although his own design - that of what we now consider to be the Confederate flag - was not chosen at first, it later became the Battle Flag and was subsequently incorporated into the Confederate flag itself. The Confederate flag fist looked similar to the U.S. flag: a circle of stars in a blue field in the corner, with three large bars, red, white and red.
Thinking this looked too much like the U.S. flag, it was later changed to something that resembles what we now recognize: Miles's "southern cross" in the corner against a totally white background. W.T. Thompson, another member of the committee who designed this flag, chose the white background to represent the dominance and superiority of the white race.
There was so much white on the flag that officers began to complain that it looked too much like a flag of surrender. So a vertical red bar was added to the side opposite the southern cross design.
.....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/24/1396070/-William-Porcher-Miles-Designer-of-the-Confederate-Battle-Flag-and-Fire-Eater

A handful of contemporaries linked the new flag design to the “peculiar institution” that was at the heart of the South’s economy, social system and polity: slavery. Bagby characterized the flag motif as the “Southern Cross” – the constellation, not a religious symbol – and hailed it for pointing “the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave” southward to “the banks of the Amazon,” a reference to the desire among many Southerners to expand Confederate territory into Latin America. In contrast, the editor of the Savannah, Ga., Morning News focused on the white field on which the Southern Cross was emblazoned. “As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored races. A White Flag would be thus emblematical of our cause.” He dubbed the new flag “the White Man’s Flag,” a sobriquet that never gained traction.
http://web.archive.org/web/20140127072956/http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/the-birth-of-the-stainless-banner/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race ; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."
https://books.google.com/books?id=vuRCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA416&dq=%22as+a+people+we+are+fighting+to%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G5UTVYnsK9O5ogS8p4LIAg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22as%20a%20people%20we%20are%20fighting%20to%22&f=false

[Max R.]

Now a woman has climbed the flagpole today, broke the law, and removed the flag herself. Would have been awesome if she fell and cracked her egg. Anyway, backup already. It will have to be done the legal way for that state. I guess it is SO harmful that suddenly it needs to come down by all or any means.

http://news.yahoo.com/woman-removes-confederate-flag-front-sc-statehouse-111505200.html
She and her friend are out on $3000 bond and facing a 3 year prison term. Even if they only serve 30 days, I wonder if they think their 15 minutes of fame is worth it.

[jimnyc]

She and her friend are out on $3000 bond and facing a 3 year prison term. Even if they only serve 30 days, I wonder if they think their 15 minutes of fame is worth it.

Sadly, they probably do. They'll have folks scrape up their bond money for them and likely get some sort of group to cover legal expenses and not see a minute behind bars. I don't know about 3 years, but a few months at minimum behind bars might hopefully deter some folks in the future from thinking they just get to change what they want at capitol buildings and state houses and such.

[aboutime]

FYI I
just a place holder for some historical research for me//
please don't take offense.
curious about the history. what the creators and 1st adopters thought.



http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Confederate_Battle_Flag
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire-Eaters


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/24/1396070/-William-Porcher-Miles-Designer-of-the-Confederate-Battle-Flag-and-Fire-Eater

A handful of contemporaries linked the new flag design to the “peculiar institution” that was at the heart of the South’s economy, social system and polity: slavery. Bagby characterized the flag motif as the “Southern Cross” – the constellation, not a religious symbol – and hailed it for pointing “the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave” southward to “the banks of the Amazon,” a reference to the desire among many Southerners to expand Confederate territory into Latin America. In contrast, the editor of the Savannah, Ga., Morning News focused on the white field on which the Southern Cross was emblazoned. “As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored races. A White Flag would be thus emblematical of our cause.” He dubbed the new flag “the White Man’s Flag,” a sobriquet that never gained traction.
http://web.archive.org/web/20140127072956/http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/the-birth-of-the-stainless-banner/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race ; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."
https://books.google.com/books?id=vuRCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA416&dq=%22as+a+people+we+are+fighting+to%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G5UTVYnsK9O5ogS8p4LIAg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22as%20a%20people%20we%20are%20fighting%20to%22&f=false



Some people still haven't heard the news, or been honestly informed about using Wikipedia.
For instance. Reliance on Wiki as an honest source of Historic Information, has been proven to be a joke over the years. Most who use Wiki as their source for nearly anything...probably aren't aware; PEOPLE from all over the World who have a computer can, and do, EDIT Wikipedia to suit their needs on nearly every topic.

Wiki, I believe. Was also the very first Online source that ENDORSED Obamacare, across the board.
And they hadn't read any of the more than 2000 pages prior to Nancy and friends Voting for it.

[Max R.]

Sadly, they probably do. They'll have folks scrape up their bond money for them and likely get some sort of group to cover legal expenses and not see a minute behind bars. I don't know about 3 years, but a few months at minimum behind bars might hopefully deter some folks in the future from thinking they just get to change what they want at capitol buildings and state houses and such.
They have Hollywood's most liberal loudmouth vowing to pay for all of their legal expenses:
http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/28/michael-moore-offers-to-pay-bail-legal-fees-for-woman-who-took-down-confederate-flag-video/
Michael Moore is offering to pay the bail and legal fees for Bree Newsome, 30, who scaled the 30-foot flagpole in front of the South Carolina statehouse Saturday and took down the Confederate flag by hand.

[Max R.]

Americans are divided on the Confederate flag issue. I doubt Hillary will be able to enact her ban of the flag "anywhere".

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/06/30/usa-today-suffolk-poll-confederate-flag-gun-control/29500975/
http://imgur.com/9VDvsJH.png

[jimnyc]

They have Hollywood's most liberal loudmouth vowing to pay for all of their legal expenses:
http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/28/michael-moore-offers-to-pay-bail-legal-fees-for-woman-who-took-down-confederate-flag-video/
Michael Moore is offering to pay the bail and legal fees for Bree Newsome, 30, who scaled the 30-foot flagpole in front of the South Carolina statehouse Saturday and took down the Confederate flag by hand.

Do I get a cookie for predicting that one so well? :beer:

[Max R.]

Do I get a cookie for predicting that one so well? :beer:
Let's just hope Moore wastes his money and the criminals get what they deserve. :)

[Jeff]

Ok so you do just ignore the slavery bits,
and imagine a dream constitutional southern country without northerners figuratively pissing on legal rights and southern culture.
OK
I'd suspect that's probably specific to you. but maybe not.

Do you understand that others don't see that, not even close.
I see the flag see slavery and read the confederate constitution and imagine slavery in the south into the 1940 and 50s.
A nightmare country. I was born and raised in Virginia. so it's not a yankee thing to me.

Rev her ignoring the slavery part, well you not wanting the flag at all , nor the monuments ( not you er say but others are already talking of removing monuments all over the country ) well isn't that also ignoring the civil war, do y'all want to make believe it never happened ?

[Gunny]

OK well lets see how this goes.

Confederate Flag
For some, it is seen as primarily a symbol of racism .
For others, it is merely a symbol of a heritage that should be embraced.
Sadly, too many people refuse to even acknowledge the other side's point of view.
I think there's a 3rd way to look at it too.
As a symbol of southern rowdiness and personal toughness rebellion and cool.

I suspect that a lot of those people that fly it, wear it, etc. don't really know or care that much about the real history. It's more of a status symbol like a Harley Davison motorcycle logo. or flashing gang symbols and color but never even seriously considering being in a REAL gang, or thinking about what gangs really do. Or like a rebellious kid just flipping the bird at the world at this point because they are told it's wrong.But the Heritage bit is real in many minds though, and i think most people get that to a degree.
But i have a hard time with it because at base the south was trying to maintain african slavery. so the heritage is overshadowed with corruption. i have a hard time understanding how people can IGNORE the millions in slavery for 300 years to laser focus and celebrate the 4 years of war, soldiers and generals prancing around to maintain it.

I just don't see what they are so proud OF.
Is it the fact that they tried to create a new country.... to maintain slavery?
is it that they fought well... to maintain slavery?
Is it that they honored their principals... the idea that slavery was a God given constitutional state right?

I just can't mentally HONESTLY separate the confederacy from it's purpose and goals.

I think we in U.S. and especially in the south have grown up with the confederacy as such a NORMAL backdrop that we allow the darkness of it to fade or be ignored for the sake of not hurting people feelings who genuinely attach benign WORTH to the men and women of the rebellion and confederacy.

Maybe it's time we can start to be more honest, I've heard many times that some tire of herring about slavery.
saying stuff LIKE "It was 180 yeeeeears ago. get over it, move on, your not a slave , i'm not a slave owner".
Ok yep sure.
But many still want to fly old Confederate flag and wear T shirts, stickers etc of a nation that only lasted 4 years and has been dead for 180 years. And they get upset if we don't want to support the display of it's paraphernalia all over gov't buildings and in the streets and lanes and homes everyday.

OK, As history it is what it is. But at this point should people be embracing THAT particular "heritage"?
Are we far enough away to see it for what it was. do we really WANT to embrace that?

When we look at the founding fathers we often hear people say "well they were men of their times" when making excuses for their slavery.
But they embraced many other HIGHER and better ideals, qualities, and deeds that are outstanding and well worth embracing and remembering outside of that, inspite off that.

So Ok we come to the Confederates. "They were men of their times" OK So we may want to give them a bit of a pass as well. But it seems their ONLY significant actions and ideals embraced slavery. What are the redeeming qualities NOT connected to slavery that we look up to there? What would compel us fly their flags and honor them with monuments on the grounds of our state capitals? Our, homes, trucks, t-Shirt and tattoos?
Tariff revolt? Southern flavor?

Am i missing something?
Or are we just to meant completely ignore the 300 years of horrors of slavery and all the southern talk of slavery and ONLY ever think of the great Confederate.... what?

Rainbow flag. Why?

[Gunny]

And just to correct your ignorance, that British Naval Battle standard that was adopted by infantry units in SC and the 17th Alabama, is NOT the CSA flag. DO some research before opening your gums and breathing your nasty, PC breath on the rest of us.

And while you're allowing the fag flag to stand while calling for the erasure of part of our history, you just prove you and those like you are hypocrites. I find the fag flag intolerable. It represents a so-called people who are manifest solely by their sexual aberrance.

It appears the 1st Amendment only applies to the whining minorities and the politically correct who are afraid to oppose them in this country.

How many threads do I have to kick your ass in on this topic before you quit making just more and more of them? The only argument you have shown so far is you have no argument and you're a RINO at best -- no balls.

[aboutime]

And just to correct your ignorance, that British Naval Battle standard that was adopted by infantry units in SC and the 17th Alabama, is NOT the CSA flag. DO some research before opening your gums and breathing your nasty, PC breath on the rest of us.

And while you're allowing the fag flag to stand while calling for the erasure of part of our history, you just prove you and those like you are hypocrites. I find the fag flag intolerable. It represents a so-called people who are manifest solely by their sexual aberrance.

It appears the 1st Amendment only applies to the whining minorities and the politically correct who are afraid to oppose them in this country.

How many threads do I have to kick your ass in on this topic before you quit making just more and more of them? The only argument you have shown so far is you have no argument and you're a RINO at best -- no balls.


Gunny. Remember how our wannabe Pretender-in-chief appeased GAYS at the white house??

http://icansayit.com/images/whrainbow.jpg

[Max R.]

Should we ban the flag below since 1) they were oppressive a**holes and 2) we fought a war against them not once, but twice winning both times?

http://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/UK-Union-Flag.png

[Jeff]

And just to correct your ignorance, that British Naval Battle standard that was adopted by infantry units in SC and the 17th Alabama, is NOT the CSA flag. DO some research before opening your gums and breathing your nasty, PC breath on the rest of us.

And while you're allowing the fag flag to stand while calling for the erasure of part of our history, you just prove you and those like you are hypocrites. I find the fag flag intolerable. It represents a so-called people who are manifest solely by their sexual aberrance.

It appears the 1st Amendment only applies to the whining minorities and the politically correct who are afraid to oppose them in this country.

How many threads do I have to kick your ass in on this topic before you quit making just more and more of them? The only argument you have shown so far is you have no argument and you're a RINO at best -- no balls.

Well said and welcome back Gunny, hell of a siesta you took there Bro.:laugh:

[Gunny]

Should we ban the flag below since 1) they were oppressive a**holes and 2) we fought a war against them not once, but twice winning both times?

http://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/UK-Union-Flag.png

IIRC, a combination of St Andrews Cross and the Victorian cross. The former being Scot and the latter English.

[stephanie]

I'm not going to say I 'get' the Confederate flag, I don't. I do know that many blacks see it as a desire to return to the days of slavery. Not saying they're right, just what I've read.

I've also read that many believe it stands for 'rebels' and 'freedom from tyranny.' Not saying they're right either.

My own feelings are that it shouldn't be flying on state buildings, though I think that removing statues and such is beyond what is reasonable. I don't like decisions being made in the wake of the horror of Charleston. Removing statues, portraits, even the flag will not change what happened. However it certainly will alienate those who are certain that the government is out to get them.

Well said dear. I'm fine taking it off state buildings. but now they have removed the show Dukes of Hazzard because of it. Nascar just asked, It not be brought to the races, etc...It' gotten stupid, I think

[Max R.]

Well said dear. I'm fine taking it off state buildings. but now they have removed the show Dukes of Hazzard because of it. Nascar just asked, It not be brought to the races, etc...It' gotten stupid, I think

And you can't download any Civil War games from Apple that feature a Confederate flag.

[aboutime]

And you can't download any Civil War games from Apple that feature a Confederate flag.


Though we haven't actually mentioned how this flag fiasco might have LASTING ELECTION powers.

I wonder if any Liberal, Democrat politician, or Republican politician understands how THEIR reaction to this Confederate Flag argument will INFLUENCE THE DIE HARD SOUTHERNERS, in the SOUTHERN STATES...when Election time rolls around in 2016???

Take note of WHICH announced Candidates HAVE NOT agreed with the removal of the Confederate Flag.

Then remember. How easily Influenced so many SOUTHERN Americans really are when someone tries to take away something THEY LOVE...like NASCAR, or THE DUKES OF HAZARD????

It may sound funny here, and even ridiculous to Most...but the RED NECK factor in America is strong, and GROWING STRONGER every day.

Just imagine if YOU were running for president in 2016. And WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

[Jeff]

Talk about ridiculous, I received a friend request from a friend of mine that has been on my list of friends on FB for ever, his name on FB is Confederate Cobra ( street name in the MC world ) well FB did away with his account because of the confederate part, they told him to send in proof that is his name, so he opened a account under just Cobra and NP at all, seems people are taking this crap to far.

[aboutime]

This endless BS coming from the liberal, whining, ignorant, hatred, stupidity, preferential Liars among us is nothing but AMERICANS who have little intelligence...falling for, and obeying POLITICAL CORRECTNESS. And they fall for it because THEY AREN'T INTELLIGENT enough to disagree, or just say no because they FEAR being called names like RACISTS.

PC is, and has been destroying our society for many years. And today. Since so FEW Americans actually have the real courage to honestly SPEAK to other human beings...afraid of being sued, or accused of racism...they depend on TEXTING, and TWITTER to replace their own voices.

HOW SAD EVERYTHING IS BECOMING FOR ALL OF US????

[Max R.]

Remember how all the Left Wingers were saying, "No, we're not banning it. We just want it put in a museum where it belongs."

Well now it's being banned in museums: http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/fort-sumter-nixes-all-confederate-flags-makes-decision-sans-historian/article/2567521

The flags of the Confederacy that flew high over Fort Sumter, the site where the first shots of the Civil War were fired, have been taken down from the historic site.
The decision to remove the flags came from a directive by National Park Service Director Jonathan Jarvis in Washington, D.C. which reads: "Confederate flags shall not be flown in units of the National Park system and related sites with the exception of specific circumstances where the flags provide historic context. ... All superintendents and program managers should evaluate how Confederate flags are used ... and remove the flags where appropriate." "Shall not be flown" is the only text that appears in bold in the letter.
The site of the Civil War's first battle is clearly a "historic" one, but according to a Fort Sumter spokesperson, it doesn't qualify as a place where "flags provide historical context," local WMBF (http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/29446520/confederate-flags-could-fly-again-at-fort-sumter)News reported.