Church killings reignite debate on South Carolina flying Confederate battle flag

[Jeff]

Yet another bonus of a tragedy, yes lets attack the flag now. The other day Obama attacked guns, for his personal agenda. I don't believe any of these idiots ought to be using this tragedy to use with their personal agenda's.


<script type="text/javascript" src="http://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=4309638089001&w=466&h=263"></script><noscript>Watch the latest video at <a href="http://video.foxnews.com">video.foxnews.com</a></noscript>



The purportedly racially-motivated killings at a South Carolina church have re-ignited the political controversy over the Confederate battle flag still flying above the state house grounds.
Flag supporters say it is a symbol of Confederate and southern heritage while critics argued it is a relic of white supremacy.
In 2000, civil right activists got the flag removed from inside the South Carolina state house and from atop the capitol dome. However, the flag still flies on the capital grounds in Columbia, S.C.


It would be great if the Country let the folks in SC decide what they want to do, after all it is their state. And lets face it, no flag made this kid commit murder, no lisc. plate on the front of his car, he is just a whack job period.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/06/20/church-killing-reignites-debate-on-south-carolina-flying-confederate-battle/

[Gunny]

Yet another bonus of a tragedy, yes lets attack the flag now. The other day Obama attacked guns, for his personal agenda. I don't believe any of these idiots ought to be using this tragedy to use with their personal agenda's.


<script type="text/javascript" src="http://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=4309638089001&w=466&h=263"></script><iframe src="//video.foxnews.com/v/video-embed.html?video_id=4309638089001&loc=debatepolicy.com&ref=about%3A%2F%2F" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" scrolling="no" frameborder="0" height="263" width="466"></iframe><noscript>Watch the latest video at video.foxnews.com (http://video.foxnews.com)</noscript>




It would be great if the Country let the folks in SC decide what they want to do, after all it is their state. And lets face it, no flag made this kid commit murder, no lisc. plate on the front of his car, he is just a whack job period.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/06/20/church-killing-reignites-debate-on-south-carolina-flying-confederate-battle/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Bh5K05b48

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I have a Confederate flag, they can kiss my ass because I have enough rebel in me to say -ff-them if they think to tell me what I can have, admire, understand and keep for whatever reason I want.
I do not fly that flag as I only fly the U.S. flag(patriotism) but its mine and it stood for something once(Don't Tread On Me) other than slavery.
Rebel in my damn blood. - :fighting0061::gunner3:-Tyr

[LongTermGuy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jadmjn3ebs

[Gunny]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iHUZgcSwNA

[gabosaurus]

Do you have the same view of the swastika and the rising sun flags? After all, they are just flags.
I hope none of you objected to Muslims wanting to build a mosque near Ground Zero. After all, it's just a building. It would be great if the we let the Muslims in NYC decide what they want to do, after all it is their property. And lets face it, no building has ever killed anyone.

[Noir]

Über liberals like Mitt Romney are jumping on the chance to use these murders as a tool for his own flag agenda i see.

[revelarts]

Well, the flag didn't cause the shooting that's for sure.
But some have said the flag is not a symbol of racism.

well i guess maybe they mean like Christmas Trees and Easter Eggs don't really have of pagan history that has to do with fertility rites and pagan gods etc., and halloween doesn't really have anything to do with real demons and witches. It's ONLY about candy and children pretending to be demons.

OK maybe, but just from a factual perspective



....After the surrender in 1865, Confederate flags were folded and put away. They were most likely to be spotted at memorials or cemeteries. Even after the hopeful decade of Reconstruction gave way to the violent repression of Redemption, open displays of the flag remained rare. There was no need for a banner to signal defiance; Jim Crow reigned unchallenged....

.....But as a political symbol, the flag was revived when northern Democrats began to press for an end to the South’s system of racial oppression. In 1948, the Dixiecrats (southern Democrats) revolted against President Harry Truman—who had desegregated the armed forces and supported anti-lynching bills. The movement began in Mississippi in February of 1948, with thousands of activists “shouting rebel yells and waving the Confederate flag,” as the Associated Press reported at the time. Some actually removed old, mothballed flags from the trunks where they had until then been gathering dust.

At the Democratic convention that July, nine southern states backed Georgia’s Senator Richard Russell over Truman, parading around the floor behind a waving Confederate flag to the strains of Dixie. The Dixiecrats reconvened in Birmingham, nominating South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond for the presidency. Sales of Confederate flags, long moribund, exploded. Stores could not keep them in stock. The battle flag became the symbol of segregation.

The flag soon spread. It fluttered from the radio antennas of cars and motorcycles, festooned towels and trinkets, and was exhibited on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. Some displayed it as a curiosity, a general symbol of rebellion against authority, or an emblem of regional pride. The United Daughters of the Confederacy were split on how to respond, some pleased to see young people showing interest, others calling the proliferation of flags a “desecration.” Newspapers tried to explain the craze, citing explanations from football fans to historically themed balls.


The black press did not find the phenomena quite so baffling. “In a large measure,” wrote the Chicago Defender in 1951, “the rebel craze is an ugly reaction to the remarkable progress of our group.” That was true in the North, as well as the South.


Over the next two decades, the flag was waved at Klan rallies, at White Citizens’ Council meetings, and by those committing horrifying acts of violence. And despite the growing range of its meanings in pop culture, as a political symbol, it offered little ambiguity.


Georgia inserted the battle flag into its state flag in 1956. Two years later, South Carolina made it a crime (http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t16c017.php) to desecrate the Confederate flag. And then, on the centennial of the day South Carolina opened fire on Fort Sumter came in 1961 (http://www.scpronet.com/point/9909/p04.html), it hoisted the battle flag above its Capitol.


It was a symbol of heritage—but that heritage was hateful. Two state delegations, in Charleston to mark that 1961 centennial, found themselves barred from the hotel where the ceremony was to take place because they included black members. President Kennedy had to issue an executive order moving the commemoration to the Charleston Navy Base. And when the centennial ended, the flag stayed, proclaiming that South Carolina might have lost the war, but that it was determined not to surrender its opposition to racial equality.....

....This history is not seriously contested. It has been documented in scholarly (https://books.google.com/books?id=zs0VJTbNwfAC)books (https://books.google.com/books?id=ERsyiUOYI4kC), articles (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1747-1346.2001.tb00612.x/abstract), and official reports (http://www.senate.ga.gov/sro/Documents/StudyCommRpts/00StateFlag.pdf). The flag was created by an army raised to kill in defense of slavery, revived by a movement that killed in defense of segregation, and now flaunted by a man who killed nine innocents in defense of white supremacy.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/why-is-the-flag-still-there/396431/


The Klan still uses the flag so do other racist white nationalist, and separatist groups.
Maybe thats not why many use it but to say that it doesn't have a racist connotation is just denial.

it ALWAYS has and as long as guys like Roof it adopt year after year it always will.

the homosexuals Adopted the rainbow as their symbol and has ruined it as a Godly symbol of God's redemption from the flood.
But the confederate flag was born out of an attempt to keep slavery. and is still used in service against blacks. some here may think of it differently but it's roots are bad and it hasn't really strayed far from them.

[tailfins]

If someone wants to be a racist, they have a right to be. There I said it. You don't know the circumstances that got them there. Flag or no flag, I don't care. My grandfather was a Klansman. I believe he was a good man regardless. My grandfather worked to elect a Klan Governor in a NON-CONFEDERATE state. The Klan was so popular, that their gubernatorial candidate won. Where's the Confederate Flag in this recruiting poster?

http://hoosierhistorylive.info/images/Klan-sheet-music-circa-1923-w-caption.png

[Perianne]

To me, the Confederate Flag is a symbol of what might have been had that scoundrel Lincoln kept his nose out of what was not his business. Lincoln got what he deserved in the end, but he left us with a mess. Ever since his murder of hundreds of thousands of good Southerners, the government has grabbed more and more control of what had been States' right.

Nine blacks died last week at the hand of a bad man. That man is rightly condemned as a lunatic racist. But Lincoln killed hundreds of thousands of good people and is today often proclaimed as the greatest President. If there is justice, Lincoln is burning in hell at this very moment.

Long live the Confederate Flag.

[revelarts]

If someone wants to be a racist, they have a right to be. There I said it. You don't know the circumstances that got them there. Flag or no flag, I don't care. My grandfather was a Klansman. I believe he was a good man regardless. My grandfather worked to elect a Klan Governor in a NON-CONFEDERATE state. The Klan was so popular, that their gubernatorial candidate won. Where's the Confederate Flag in this recruiting poster?


well i guess i'm in no place to judge your family good or bad.

However, I'd ask you, do you sincerely believe racism is good?
Is it good for you? Is it good for others?
As a rational person, a problem solver, do you think racism is the BEST way to approach human relations?
And most importantly as a Christian do you believe it's really what God wants from a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ?

[revelarts]

.... The Klan was so popular, that their gubernatorial candidate won. Where's the Confederate Flag in this recruiting poster?

http://hoosierhistorylive.info/images/Klan-sheet-music-circa-1923-w-caption.png

Indiana, that's very interesting.

[Max R.]

Do you have the same view of the swastika and the rising sun flags? After all, they are just flags.
I hope none of you objected to Muslims wanting to build a mosque near Ground Zero. After all, it's just a building. It would be great if the we let the Muslims in NYC decide what they want to do, after all it is their property. And lets face it, no building has ever killed anyone.
Equating the CSA flag with the Nazi flag is as fallacious as the anti-gun idiots who say "Well, if you can have a 30 shot magazine why not have a nuclear bomb, huh???"

No, I didn't think it was wrong to replace a mosque destroyed in 9/11 with a newer, larger one down the block.

[Max R.]

Indiana, that's very interesting.
Despite the yammerings and snootiness of Northern Liberal elitists, neither whites nor Southerners have a monopoly on racism.

[revelarts]

Despite the yammerings and snootiness of Northern Liberal elitists, neither whites nor Southerners have a monopoly on racism.
Absolutely, sadly there's no place in america where racism hasn't played a part historically to various degrees.

This quote from Black activist Dick Gregory comes to mind.
"the difference in northern racism and southern racism is that.
In the South they don't mind how close you get personally, but just don't get to High politically or financially.
In the North they don't care how high you get, just as long as you don't get to close personally."

[Max R.]

Absolutely, sadly there's no place in america where racism hasn't played a part historically to various degrees.

This quote from Black activist Dick Gregory comes to mind.
"the difference in northern racism and southern racism is that.
In the South they don't mind how close you get personally, but just don't get to High politically or financially.
In the North they don't care how high you get, just as long as you don't get to close personally."
An interesting observation from Gregory. Not applicable in all circumstances, but probably more true than not.

[gabosaurus]

I am going to bring Gunny's comments from the other thread over here:


There's nothing racist about the Confederate battle flag.

What was the cause of the Civil War?
It was about the South's right to own slaves. Which they considered to be less than human. Less than cattle, even.
If the Civil War was fought over slavery, how does the Confederate battle flag not represent such?

In all wars, the losers are consigned to history. You are welcome to wax nostalgic about the Confederacy. Just admit why.

[tailfins]

well i guess i'm in no place to judge your family good or bad.

However, I'd ask you, do you sincerely believe racism is good?
Is it good for you? Is it good for others?
As a rational person, a problem solver, do you think racism is the BEST way to approach human relations?
And most importantly as a Christian do you believe it's really what God wants from a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ?

Of course not. All I'm saying that being a racist is not a disqualifier to being a good person. Sure it's a liability, but not a disqualifier.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I am going to bring Gunny's comments from the other thread over here:



What was the cause of the Civil War?
It was about the South's right to own slaves. Which they considered to be less than human. Less than cattle, even.
If the Civil War was fought over slavery, how does the Confederate battle flag not represent such?

In all wars, the losers are consigned to history. You are welcome to wax nostalgic about the Confederacy. Just admit why.

There was more than the issue of slavery that caused the Civil War. I know, every time th topic of "states rights" is brought up those wanting to rant and condemn slavery and the South immediately cry its not even on the scale. Actually it is as the Southern fighting man primarily fought for home, family , culture and freedom to rule his own land and space and not be so constrained by big government(Federal). Other factors exist to as the Industrial revolution and industry of the far more populated North was exerted undue restrictive regulations/policies and trade imbalance to the South..-Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

There was more than the issue of slavery that caused the Civil War. I know, every time th topic of "states rights" is brought up those wanting to rant and condemn slavery and the South immediately cry its not even on the scale. Actually it is as the Southern fighting man primarily fought for home, family , culture and freedom to rule his own land and space and not be so constrained by big government(Federal). Other factors exist to as the Industrial revolution and industry of the far more populated North was exerted undue restrictive regulations/policies and trade imbalance to the South..-Tyr


Was slavery a factor in the Civil war? Yes

Was it THE factor for the secession of the South? NO

It was a matter of States Rights and Economic imbalance.

[revelarts]

Was slavery a factor in the Civil war? Yes
Was it THE factor for the secession of the South? NO
It was a matter of States Rights and Economic imbalance.


Was Slavery THE factor for the secession? YES.

the north and south had been in a hot struggle over slavery in courts, in congress, in the territories and in the culture for decades, actually from the founding of the country.

•When Jeff Davis left congress he gave the reason for Mississippi's secession as it's understanding of constitutional rights of slavery.

•In the secession documents of many of the states the reasons are given for secession, THE main and usually ONLY factor given is Slavery.

•In the new confederate constitution the only items added and reinforced are apx 3 provisions concerning negro slavery.

•From the beginning of the war the south knew it had a disadvantage in the number of men to fight. the proposal was made to use slaves in the army and give them freedom if they fight. this was met with near universal southern outrage because "WHAT ARE WE FIGHTING FOR ANYWAY" if we're going to free the slaves?!

•From the diary of James B. Lockney, 28th Wisconsin Infantry, writing near Arkadelphia, Arkansas (10/29/63): "Last night I talked awhile to those men who came in day before yesterday from the S.W. part of the state about 120 miles distant. Many of them wish Slavery abolished & slaves out of the country as they said it was the cause of the War, and the Curse of our Country & the foe of the body of the people--the poor whites. They knew the Slave masters got up the war expressly in the interests of the institution, & with no real cause from the Government or the North." [This diary is on-line at: http://userdata.acd.net/jshirey/cw186310.html.]

•Henry M. Rector, Governor of Arkansas, March 2, 1861, Arkansas Secession Convention, p. 4 "The area of slavery must be extended correlative with its antagonism, or it will be put speedily in the 'course of ultimate extinction.'....The extension of slavery is the vital point of the whole controversy between the North and the South...Amendments to the federal constitution are urged by some as a panacea for all the ills that beset us. That instrument is amply sufficient as it now stands, for the protection of Southern rights, if it was only enforced. The South wants practical evidence of good faith from the North, not mere paper agreements and compromises. They believe slavery a sin, we do not, and there lies the trouble."

•John B. Baldwin, Augusta County delegate to the Virginia Secession Convention, March 21, 1861: "I say, then, that viewed from that standpoint, there is but one single subject of complaint which Virginia has to make against the government under which we live; a complaint made by the whole South, and that is on the subject of African slavery...." [Journal of the Virginia Secession Convention, Vol. II, p. 139]
Baldwin again: "But, sir, the great cause of complaint now is the slavery question, and the questions growing out of it. If there is any other cause of complaint which has been influential in any quarter, to bring about the crisis which is now upon us; if any State or any people have made the troubles growing out of this question, a pretext for agitation instead of a cause of honest complaint, Virginia can have no sympathy whatever, in any such feeling, in any such policy, in any such attempt. It is the slavery question. Is it not so?..."
[ibid, p. 140]

[Jeff]

I am going to bring Gunny's comments from the other thread over here:



What was the cause of the Civil War?
It was about the South's right to own slaves. Which they considered to be less than human. Less than cattle, even.
If the Civil War was fought over slavery, how does the Confederate battle flag not represent such?

In all wars, the losers are consigned to history. You are welcome to wax nostalgic about the Confederacy. Just admit why.

Gabs some might look further than just slavery, I flew the flag while growing up in NJ ( yup all those dam slaves we had ) Seriously I flew it because it represented to me ( and to many today ) a Rebel, I will do things my way. I have the flag tattooed on my arm, now I know you believe I am a racist, yes everyone that isn't having gay sex and telling lies about their muslim neighbors is a racist to you, but I live and let live. Cross my property line white or black and you will first be meet with 3 Pits, if you get by them you will be met with lead, I discriminant against no one, I don't like any of them.

[Jeff]

Do you have the same view of the swastika and the rising sun flags? After all, they are just flags.
I hope none of you objected to Muslims wanting to build a mosque near Ground Zero. After all, it's just a building. It would be great if the we let the Muslims in NYC decide what they want to do, after all it is their property. And lets face it, no building has ever killed anyone.

Dang Gabs I sure am glad you edu ma cated me on this, I am a racist, well until I get my tattoo removed then I will be ok. :laugh:


http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7379&stc=1

[jimnyc]

Awesome. I'm curious, if I fly this flag on my truck, or as my avatar, am I a racist then too?

http://i.imgur.com/Vj8X3Cv.png

[revelarts]

Awesome. I'm curious, if I fly this flag on my truck, or as my avatar, am I a racist then too?

http://i.imgur.com/Vj8X3Cv.png

You might be.

[jimnyc]

And now we have the NAACP stating that flying this flag is a "hate crime". Idiots.

[jimnyc]

You might be.

Just as if you "might be" if you fly the American flag.

[revelarts]

Just as if you "might be" if you fly the American flag.
or no flag.

However those flying any version of a confederate flag are placed under immediate suspicion because of the obvious connotations.
the Gadson flag, the US. flag the various state flags of the South even don't have the same connotations as Any version of the confederate flag.

[Noir]

Some people don't associate the confederate flag with racism, but most do.

Now i get that that sucks for those who think it represents other things, but racist idiots have ruined this symbol for you. Much in the same way that the Swastika is virtually inseparable from Nazism.

[jimnyc]

or no flag.

However those flying any version of a confederate flag are placed under immediate suspicion because of the obvious connotations.
the Gadson flag, the US. flag the various state flags of the South even don't have the same connotations as Any version of the confederate flag.

No, it's only "obvious" to YOU. I've known tons and tons and tons of folks with the flag down south, have yet to meet one that was a racist. Placing suspicion on someone for little to no reason, because of an inanimate object? Sounds like some think the ENTIRE state of SC should be placed under suspicion, that it's an entire state of racists.

I wonder if a black person that also wears all black, like the black panthers and such, should be under immediate suspicion if I see them? Of perhaps a black person with a blue, or red bandana. The history of death makes it that one should at least be suspicious of such folks. I don't know them, never met them, it may have been history alone, but I'm smart enough to instantly make that connection, and maybe call the cops to check them out. Oh, wait, then I'd ALSO be a racist for that action.

[revelarts]

No, it's only "obvious" to YOU. I've known tons and tons and tons of folks with the flag down south, have yet to meet one that was a racist. Placing suspicion on someone for little to no reason, because of an inanimate object? Sounds like some think the ENTIRE state of SC should be placed under suspicion, that it's an entire state of racists.

I wonder if a black person that also wears all black, like the black panthers and such, should be under immediate suspicion if I see them? Of perhaps a black person with a blue, or red bandana. The history of death makes it that one should at least be suspicious of such folks. I don't know them, never met them, it may have been history alone, but I'm smart enough to instantly make that connection, and maybe call the cops to check them out. Oh, wait, then I'd ALSO be a racist for that action.

Just being Black puts most blacks under suspicion of something for some whites Jim.

[jimnyc]

Just being Black puts most blacks under suspicion for a lot of whites Jim.

That's not the discussion here.

BUT...

"Just owning a flag puts most southerners under suspicion" - and none of them were alive back then. Appearances. People want things based on appearances to stop. But then want to stop things themselves.

[jimnyc]

Stolen from a friend on facebook:

The banning of The Confederate flag is no more the answer to racism against blacks, than a ban on hoodies would be with regards black crime. The best way to decrease racism in this country is through education, an end to all special programs and laws that favor one race over another and an immediate end to all government sponsored and recognized special interest groups base on race. Social pandering and appeasement must also come to an end, as it is this simple, no one has the right not to be offended and no government should be delving so deeply into social matters that it is legislating against offense.We are either all free and equal Americans, or we are nothing, for the record, right now we are nothing.

[Noir]

Stolen from a friend on facebook:

The banning of The Confederate flag is no more the answer to racism against blacks, than a ban on hoodies would be with regards black crime. The best way to decrease racism in this country is through education, an end to all special programs and laws that favor one race over another and an immediate end to all government sponsored and recognized special interest groups base on race. Social pandering and appeasement must also come to an end, as it is this simple, no one has the right not to be offended and no government should be delving so deeply into social matters that it is legislating against offense.We are either all free and equal Americans, or we are nothing, for the record, right now we are nothing.

The cost of being in a society is accepting you are not free or equal.

[jimnyc]

The cost of being in a society is accepting you are not free or equal.

Hmmmm.. I'll remember that quote.

[revelarts]

That's not the discussion here.

BUT...

"Just owning a flag puts most southerners under suspicion" - and none of them were alive back then. Appearances. People want things based on appearances to stop. But then want to stop things themselves.

Roof wasn't alive then either but he adopted the flag as a symbol to represent his racist views today.
Other whites alive today have done the same.

I have NO way of knowing what's in a persons heart concerning their use of the flag. Most i suspect are benign.
I had job once going going through neighborhoods for city gov't. There were several homes i stopped at that had confederate flags flying. One home had a flag flying as large maybe larger than the footprint of the HOUSE. frankly that uh...gave me pause. I asked one of his white neighbor about the home owner before i approached the house. I smiled and asked "it's about heritage and not hate right?" the neighbor assured me that it was so. I went and did my job but I'd be stupid not wonder if i was walking into a hostile situation.

In my hometown In my lifetime there were neighborhoods that had signs up "no blacks beyond this point". and as you look down the street you saw rebel flags on some homes. Once I white buddy i worked with took me down a road looking for a home he saw earlier in the week that had a rebel flag on a pole and noose on a tree. That was maybe 7-8 years ago.

maybe you've NEVER heard or seen anything like that and NO one you've ever heard of with a rebel flag ..except Roof... is racist today. So in your mind it's a COMPLETELY illegitimate question to even ask.
Great you've got that luxury.

[revelarts]

Stolen from a friend on facebook:

The banning of The Confederate flag is no more the answer to racism against blacks, than a ban on hoodies would be with regards black crime. The best way to decrease racism in this country is through education, an end to all special programs and laws that favor one race over another and an immediate end to all government sponsored and recognized special interest groups base on race. Social pandering and appeasement must also come to an end, as it is this simple, no one has the right not to be offended and no government should be delving so deeply into social matters that it is legislating against offense.We are either all free and equal Americans, or we are nothing, for the record, right now we are nothing.

I've already stated that I'm against banning for private use.
but um,
so special "pandering" etc. is the.. or a.. major cause of racism?
So what was the cause of racism when blacks were slaves and during jim crow and pre-civil rights then?

And funny there's no mention of equal treatment by police and justice system and the like just the so called "special" favor of being Black in america.

[jimnyc]

Roof wasn't alive then either but he adopted the flag as a symbol to represent his racist views today.
Other whites alive today have done the same.

True. Just as many blacks have adopted things for racist views. But I don't instantly see something and assume that person is a racist. It takes a lot more than owning a flag to make someone a racist.


I have NO way of knowing what's in a persons heart concerning their use of the flag. Most i suspect are benign.
I had job once going going through neighborhoods for city gov't. There were several homes i stopped at that had confederate flags flying. One home had a flag flying as large maybe larger than the footprint of the HOUSE. frankly that uh...gave me pause. I asked one of his white neighbor about the home owner before i approached the house. I smiled and asked "it's a heritage and not hate right?" the neighbor assured me that it was so. I went and did my job but I'd be stupid not wonder if i was walking into a hostile situation.

I don't own one now but I did growing up, at least for a short time. I also had a beer mug with one on it. And the reason was because it looked cool! LOL Some are true historians, some truly see honor and roots in the flag, some just think it looks cool and yep, I suppose a bunch are racist.


In my hometown In my lifetime there were neighborhoods that had signs up "no blacks beyond this point". and as you look down the street you saw rebel flags on some homes. Once I white buddy i worked with took me down a road looking for a home he saw earlier in the week that had a rebel flag on a pole and noose on a tree. That was maybe 7-8 years ago.

I certainly don't blame you for your feelings, and I'm confident I would probably feel a tad differently under similar circumstances. But those assholes don't speak for everyone. Those days should be long gone. And no assholes should prevent anyone from going anywhere within neighborhoods. Same with the asshole with the noose. There are bad eggs everywhere, and unfortunately in modern times there are ignorant folks who were probably taught by ignorant parents, who are also racist, that the flag speaks for racism... That I fully understand. But they are wrong in their learning and teaching.


maybe you've NEVER heard or seen anything like that and NO one you've ever heard of with a rebel flag ..except Roof... is racist today. So in your mind it's a COMPLETELY illegitimate question to even ask.
Great you've got that luxury.

Never said as much. I think racism today is legit and never said otherwise. And while different to an extent, don't think I've never seen racism. Try being a skinny white boy full of tattoos walking around in the Bronx or Harlem. One swollen and blackened eye. One other fight to speak of. Plenty of words said to me and much different treatment at many places. I'm not saying it's the same, but I'm not naive as to how racism works and affects people.

This is mostly no different than any other "paint with a large brush" situation, where entire states and owners of flags are being lumped into something.

[Max R.]

Amazon, Ebay and Walmart have wussed out on selling Confederate merchandise. Will Civil War museums soon follow?

Fortunately, not everyone is so weak-kneed: http://www.bathsheba69.com/specials/PAGE6.htm
http://www.bathsheba69.com/low%20cost%20rebel/confederate-Bikini.jpg

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/06/23/confederate-flag-walmart-roof-emanuel/29153957/
Momentum to eradicate public displays of the Confederate flag continued to build Tuesday as more retailers and online marketplaces, including Amazon and eBay, joined <culink class="culinks" culang="en" href="http://curiyo.com/en/topic/Walmart" title="" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dashed; cursor: help; display: inline !important; float: none !important; padding: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; border-bottom-color: rgb(0, 155, 255) !important;">Walmart</culink> to remove rebel-flagged items from their shelves and websites.
After Walmart and its 11,000 stores led the way Monday night by sweeping from shelves any product bearing the <culink class="culinks" culang="en" href="http://curiyo.com/en/topic/Flags of the Confederate States of America" title="" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dashed; cursor: help; display: inline !important; float: none !important; padding: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; border-bottom-color: rgb(0, 155, 255) !important;">Confederate battle flag</culink>, retail giants Sears, Amazon and eBay followed suit Tuesday.
"We believe it has become a contemporary symbol of divisiveness and racism," said eBay spokesperson Johnna Hoff.
"We never want to offend anyone with the products we offer," Walmart said in a statement.
A spokeswoman for Amazon confirmed that the company is pulling down Confederate flag merchandise.
Etsy.com, the peer-to-peer online marketplace of independent sellers, also said Tuesday it would bar items emblazoned with the Confederate flag.
"Etsy's policies prohibit items or listings that promote, support or glorify hatred and these items fall squarely into that category," spokeswoman Sara Cohen said.

[Max R.]

Hillary not talking about this? Will she say "What difference does it make?"

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/22/hillary-clinton-not-talking-about-92-clinton-gore-confederate-campaign-button/#
It’s unclear if the Clinton-Gore Confederate flag campaign button that has been prominent on social media (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/22/hillary-clinton-not-talking-about-92-clinton-gore-confederate-campaign-button/www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/06/22/what-those-clinton-gore-confederate-flag-buttons-say-about-politics-in-2015/)was an official part of their 1992 presidential campaign.
And Hillary Clinton isn’t clarifying, nor is her team responding to questions about her husband honoring the flag as Arkansas governor in 1987.
http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-21-at-2.02.53-PM.png (http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-21-at-2.02.53-PM.png)Credit: eBay

TheBlaze left phone and email messages with the Clinton campaign Monday inquiring whether the button (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Clinton-Gore-1992-Confederate-Flag-2-x-3-Button-Good-Looking-L-K-/370708363890), and other similar designs (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1992-Bill-Clinton-Al-Gore-in-Cartoon-Confederate-Uniforms-Sons-of-New-South-Pin/301655648761?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%2 6asc%3D20140602152332%26meid%3D13a527f7331144b295f 1efec0bad7cbe%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D3%26 sd%3D301653271453) sold on eBay, was part of the official campaign of Bill Clinton and Al Gore.
TheBlaze also asked if the former Arkansas first lady opposed now or opposed then an act signed by her husband honoring the Confederate flag. The Clinton campaign did not respond to either question.
The Confederate battle flag has become an issue following last week’s shooting massacre at a black church in Charleston, South Carolina. The Confederate flag is still flown on the South Carolina Capitol grounds. After increasing calls for its removal, Gov. Nikki Haley (R) on Monday called for the flag to finally come down (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/06/22/nikki-haley-calls-for-removal-of-confederate-flag-from-south-carolina-capitol-grounds/).
Republican presidential candidates were reluctant to take a firm stand on the matter over the weekend. Hillary Clinton spoke about race relations on Friday in San Francisco (https://medium.com/@HillaryClinton/hillary-clinton-we-can-t-hide-from-hard-truths-on-race-96ce2257fe5a), but did not mention the Confederate flag, according to the campaign’s transcript. Clinton did, however, call for the flag to be removed from the South Carolina capitol (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/02/19/sen-clinton-south-carolina-should-remove-confederate-flag-from-statehouse.html) in 2007 during her first presidential campaign.
As for the 1992 buttons, the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/06/22/what-those-clinton-gore-confederate-flag-buttons-say-about-politics-in-2015/) speculated on whether they were part of the official 1992 Clinton-Gore campaign.

One indicator that it isn’t official is that it lacks a union “bug,” the little marker showing that a piece of campaign material was printed in a union shop. If you look at other Clinton-Gore buttons, nearly all — but not all — have a bug somewhere …
The politics then were less complicated than they are now. It’s believable that Clinton and Gore might have had a Confederate button, though we don’t know for sure that they did. What the reemergence of the buttons now shows, if nothing else, is that the history of the rebellious South continues to resonate and continues to evolve, year by year, as a component of American politics.
In 1987, then-Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton signed Act 116 (http://dailycaller.com/2015/06/20/flashback-as-governor-bill-clinton-honored-confederacy-on-arkansas-flag/). It had little consequences other than to reaffirm the state’s language that honored the stars on the Arkansas flag as commemorating the Confederate flag. The act specifically says, “The blue star above the word ‘ARKANSAS’ is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.”

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Amazon, Ebay and Walmart have wussed out on selling Confederate merchandise. Will Civil War museums soon follow?

Fortunately, not everyone is so weak-kneed: http://www.bathsheba69.com/specials/PAGE6.htm
http://www.bathsheba69.com/low%20cost%20rebel/confederate-Bikini.jpg

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/06/23/confederate-flag-walmart-roof-emanuel/29153957/
Momentum to eradicate public displays of the Confederate flag continued to build Tuesday as more retailers and online marketplaces, including Amazon and eBay, joined <culink class="culinks" culang="en" href="http://curiyo.com/en/topic/Walmart" title="" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dashed; cursor: help; display: inline !important; float: none !important; padding: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; border-bottom-color: rgb(0, 155, 255) !important;">Walmart</culink> to remove rebel-flagged items from their shelves and websites.
After Walmart and its 11,000 stores led the way Monday night by sweeping from shelves any product bearing the <culink class="culinks" culang="en" href="http://curiyo.com/en/topic/Flags of the Confederate States of America" title="" style="border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: dashed; cursor: help; display: inline !important; float: none !important; padding: 0px !important; margin: 0px !important; border-bottom-color: rgb(0, 155, 255) !important;">Confederate battle flag</culink>, retail giants Sears, Amazon and eBay followed suit Tuesday.
"We believe it has become a contemporary symbol of divisiveness and racism," said eBay spokesperson Johnna Hoff.
"We never want to offend anyone with the products we offer," Walmart said in a statement.
A spokeswoman for Amazon confirmed that the company is pulling down Confederate flag merchandise.
Etsy.com, the peer-to-peer online marketplace of independent sellers, also said Tuesday it would bar items emblazoned with the Confederate flag.
"Etsy's policies prohibit items or listings that promote, support or glorify hatred and these items fall squarely into that category," spokeswoman Sara Cohen said.

Could spell the start of the end for Wally-world as this kind of caving to those that hate it only serves to get more demands and far greater demands to cave even deeper.
Wally's world competition should proudly announce it will give the customers what they want and how it truly believes in freedom so unlike Wally world.
For 17 years Ive been buying my groceries at Wally world as its less than two blocks from my home, today I bought at Kroger and will not buy food at Wally world ever again!
Folks, take a stand against this type of crap by doing more than just griping.. -Tyr