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Kathianne
05-29-2015, 11:26 PM
Found this interesting, in light of what some of our new members have been writing regarding Russia and Ukraine, along with the elections:

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21652339-vladimir-putin-concocts-new-story-ukraine-leaving-west-wondering-what-he-up


<hgroup class="typog-content-header main-content-header" style="margin-bottom: 5px; color: rgb(74, 74, 74); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px;">Russia and the West

Alternative reality

Vladimir Putin concocts a new story on Ukraine, leaving the West wondering what he is up to

</hgroup><aside class="floatleft light-grey" style="float: left; color: rgb(123, 123, 115); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 22px; margin: 0px 15px 10px 0px !important;"><time class="date-created" itemprop="dateCreated" datetime="2015-05-30T00:00:00+0000" style="font-size: 1.2rem; line-height: 1.6rem;">May 30th 2015 </time>| MOSCOW | From the print edition (http://www.economist.com/printedition/2015-05-30)</aside>





IN THE original instalment of the “hybrid war” that it launched against Ukraine last year, Russia’s propaganda machine depicted its neighbour as a neo-Nazi state whose soldiers burnt villages and crucified children in the Russian-speaking east. But after the vast military parade Russia staged on May 9th, marking its victory over German (and by implication Ukrainian) fascism, a new story-line started to take shape. Ukraine is now portrayed as a failed state. It has defaulted on its debts and violated every international norm, and its Western sponsors are panicking. A new Maidan revolution could happen at any time—the smell of burnt tyres is in the air.

Western leaders, the story goes, have realised their mistake and are flocking to make amends with Vladimir Putin, the magnanimous Russian leader who tried to warn them against supporting Ukraine. First it was Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, who sought an audience with Mr Putin. Then it was John Kerry, America’s secretary of state, who flew all the way to Sochi to pay his respects. “America has realised that Ukraine is not worth spoiling its relationship with Russia,” proclaimed Channel One, Russia’s main television station. Russia’s military might and its alliance with China, the channel implied, had forced America back to the table.


The images of war which dominated Russian television for the past year have been supplanted by tales of diplomatic victories and Ukraine’s failures. If war resumes, according to Channel One, it will be launched by the desperate Ukrainians. This new narrative is not meant only for a Russian audience. No sooner had Mr Kerry left Sochi than Russia sent its emissaries to Kiev to tell Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine’s president, that America and Europe had dumped him. The other intended audience was the European Union, which on June 22nd will decide whether to prolong its sanctions on Russia. If America is willing to make amends, Moscow is asking, what is the point of spoiling good business with us?

In fact, American sources insist Mr Kerry’s visit was meant not to make amends but to ascertain Mr Putin’s thinking on several issues. Will Mr Putin work against America on Iran? Is he willing to co-operate in Syria? Will he stop meddling in Ukraine? The answer to all three questions seemed to be no. Mr Kerry also delivered a message in response to Mr Putin’s nuclear sabre-rattling: do not go too far in testing NATO’s military resolve, as it will backfire. Mr Putin spun Mr Kerry’s visit as a diplomatic triumph, but he now faces the question of what to do next.

...

Balu
05-30-2015, 01:05 AM
Let us try to start from the very beginning to clarify the initial position of Russia.

Ukraine separatists to go ahead with referendum despite Putin call for delay

<meta content="So-called Donetsk People's Republic says vote will take place on Sunday despite Russian president's call for postponement" itemprop="description">So-called Donetsk People's Republic says vote will take place on Sunday despite Russian president's call for postponement.
A referendum on autonomy in east Ukraine is to go ahead despite a call from the Russian president, Vladimir Putin (http://www.theguardian.com/world/vladimir-putin), to delay the vote.
The co-ordinating committee of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic announced after a meeting on Thursday that it would hold the vote on Sunday as planned. Separatists in neighbouring Luhansk announced that their vote would also go ahead. ...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/ukraine-separatists-referendum-putin-call-delay

Then, we should remember that at that very time, after armed coup there were no legislative authorities in Ukraine at all. No President, no Parliament, no Prime Minister, no Constitutional Court - only junta illegitimate impostors, appointed... by USA and EU. In other words Ukraine ceased to exist as a State.
No wonder that under these conditions Crimea and Donbass with their Russian majority decided to define their future themselves, as they didn't see for themselves any perspectives.

Drummond
05-30-2015, 02:21 AM
Let us try to start from the very beginning to clarify the initial position of Russia.

Ukraine separatists to go ahead with referendum despite Putin call for delay

<meta content="So-called Donetsk People's Republic says vote will take place on Sunday despite Russian president's call for postponement" itemprop="description">So-called Donetsk People's Republic says vote will take place on Sunday despite Russian president's call for postponement.
A referendum on autonomy in east Ukraine is to go ahead despite a call from the Russian president, Vladimir Putin (http://www.theguardian.com/world/vladimir-putin), to delay the vote.
The co-ordinating committee of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic announced after a meeting on Thursday that it would hold the vote on Sunday as planned. Separatists in neighbouring Luhansk announced that their vote would also go ahead. ...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/ukraine-separatists-referendum-putin-call-delay

Then, we should remember that at that very time, after armed coup there were no legislative authorities in Ukraine at all. No President, no Parliament, no Prime Minister, no Constitutional Court - only junta illegitimate impostors, appointed... by USA and EU. In other words Ukraine ceased to exist as a State.
No wonder that under these conditions Crimea and Donbass with their Russian majority decided to define their future themselves, as they didn't see for themselves any perspectives.

Opting for domination by a mightier country is definitely NOT an act leading to autonomy, other than the autonomy which they're PERMITTED to have.

By total contrast, Ukraine - for now, anyway - IS an autonomous State. It remained so, regardless of what you've said.

And if it didn't, as YOU claim, then why didn't Putin take the 'situation' to its logical conclusion, and just invade ALL of Ukraine ?

Because ... perhaps ... he knew he'd be proving his dreams of Empire so decisively to the world, that the world would never have quietly accepted it ? Because such an action would've been too much like a latter-day Soviet-style expansion ?

And I note that not even you have gone so far as to tell us that Ukraine became a puppet State of Western powers ... unlike what became true in the Soviet days.

Balu
05-30-2015, 02:57 AM
...And if it didn't, as YOU claim, then why didn't Putin take the 'situation' to its logical conclusion, and just invade ALL of Ukraine ?

Because ... perhaps ... he knew he'd be proving his dreams of Empire so decisively to the world, that the world would never have quietly accepted it ? Because such an action would've been too much like a latter-day Soviet-style expansion ?

And I note that not even you have gone so far as to tell us that Ukraine became a puppet State of Western powers ... unlike what became true in the Soviet days.
I wonder why you and Ukrainians are convinced, that Russia is eager to hang this collar on her neck? Putin and Lavrov have said dozen times that Russia is interested in United Ukraine in its present bordersб including Donetsk and Luhansk regions. And Russia is convinced that it is possible only by federalization, as Ukraine is heterogeneous as the patchwork. Originally it is an artificial State what caused the consequences we are facing now.

Kathianne
05-30-2015, 08:34 AM
I wonder why you and Ukrainians are convinced, that Russia is eager to hang this collar on her neck? Putin and Lavrov have said dozen times that Russia is interested in United Ukraine in its present bordersб including Donetsk and Luhansk regions. And Russia is convinced that it is possible only by federalization, as Ukraine is heterogeneous as the patchwork. Originally it is an artificial State what caused the consequences we are facing now.

Please explain what time period you are referring to with the bolded sentence.

Gunny
05-30-2015, 09:08 AM
I wonder why you and Ukrainians are convinced, that Russia is eager to hang this collar on her neck? Putin and Lavrov have said dozen times that Russia is interested in United Ukraine in its present bordersб including Donetsk and Luhansk regions. And Russia is convinced that it is possible only by federalization, as Ukraine is heterogeneous as the patchwork. Originally it is an artificial State what caused the consequences we are facing now.

It's Russia's fault. Y'all should learn to manage your money better. You let Ukraine go, and it has been since recognized by the international community as a sovereign nation.

The fact is, y'all just don't want to pay for their oil and the rent on a pipeline.