WACO / Freedom of Association is an American Right, not a privilege

[Gadget (fmr Marine)]

The freedom of association is an American right, not a privilege. An individual is not guilty of a crime that they did not participate in or play a part in. Simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, regardless of the ultimate outcome of this incident, does not justify incarceration or excessively punitive bail for 170+ individuals.
Thomas Paul Landers like many others is being charged with organized crime and being held on $1 million bail because of exercising his fundamental rights of association and expression. The purpose for Mr. Landers presence at Twin Peaks was purely political in nature as Mr. Landers is, irrefutably, a prominent motorcycle rights advocate in Texas and Across America.
It is unjust to sacrifice an individual's access to due process and the right to free association for the purpose of prosecutorial convenience. The scope of the tragedy does not usurp absolute and fundamental freedoms demanded by the constitution. Promoting fear to justify draconian actions is untenable and deplorable.
The deprivations occurring in Texas are impacting the doctrine of freedom everywhere. Justice demands the immediate release of Thomas Paul Landers and others! Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not a crime. Punishing people because they were responsibly gathering to participate in the democratic process sends the wrong message to Texas and the nation. Remember, even in the face of tragedy, those that sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither. And this is incontrovertibly an issue of freedom of expression and association in a free society.

http://txcocinews.org/cta2-waco-tragedy.html

[Jeff]

The freedom of association is an American right, not a privilege. An individual is not guilty of a crime that they did not participate in or play a part in. Simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, regardless of the ultimate outcome of this incident, does not justify incarceration or excessively punitive bail for 170+ individuals.
Thomas Paul Landers like many others is being charged with organized crime and being held on $1 million bail because of exercising his fundamental rights of association and expression. The purpose for Mr. Landers presence at Twin Peaks was purely political in nature as Mr. Landers is, irrefutably, a prominent motorcycle rights advocate in Texas and Across America.
It is unjust to sacrifice an individual's access to due process and the right to free association for the purpose of prosecutorial convenience. The scope of the tragedy does not usurp absolute and fundamental freedoms demanded by the constitution. Promoting fear to justify draconian actions is untenable and deplorable.
The deprivations occurring in Texas are impacting the doctrine of freedom everywhere. Justice demands the immediate release of Thomas Paul Landers and others! Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not a crime. Punishing people because they were responsibly gathering to participate in the democratic process sends the wrong message to Texas and the nation. Remember, even in the face of tragedy, those that sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither. And this is incontrovertibly an issue of freedom of expression and association in a free society.

http://txcocinews.org/cta2-waco-tragedy.html

I ride with the Heaven Saint's here in GA, I know we have chapters in TX, so we could of been there as well. See we go to where 1% congregate, the more the merrier. See we walk around and have fun and if someone asks about our Cut's we will explain, we can't do what we set out to do without hanging with these folks, so yes being guilty just because you are there, look like them or anything else besides seeing you commit the crime is wrong.

This is a picture of the group I rode with in a parade on Memorial day, all we are guilty of is being Christians.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7257&stc=1

[Perianne]

I ride with the Heaven Saint's here in GA, I know we have chapters in TX, so we could of been there as well. See we go to where 1% congregate, the more the merrier. See we walk around and have fun and if someone asks about our Cut's we will explain, we can't do what we set out to do without hanging with these folks, so yes being guilty just because you are there, look like them or anything else besides seeing you commit the crime is wrong.

This is a picture of the group I rode with in a parade on Memorial day, all we are guilty of is being Christians.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7257&stc=1

I like the picture, but they are some scary-looking guys.... unless they are on MY side!

[Jeff]

I like the picture, but they are some scary-looking guys.... unless they are on MY side!

Exactly the point, many in that picture rode with outlaw clubs at one point, just because you look a certain way should not make you guilty. The Government did this years ago with the Rico act, at least back then it was if you wore the same cut, looks like at least here they are now saying you are guilty for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you look a certain way.

[Perianne]

Exactly the point, many in that picture rode with outlaw clubs at one point, just because you look a certain way should not make you guilty. The Government did this years ago with the Rico act, at least back then it was if you wore the same cut, looks like at least here they are now saying you are guilty for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you look a certain way.

I hope you know I didn't mean any disrespect. In my years in the medical field, some of the nicest, kindest people I have ever served looked like bikers. And it was kinda neat that here is this big, tough guy, but is so nice to me. They knew how to treat me with respect.

[Jeff]

I hope you know I didn't mean any disrespect. In my years in the medical field, some of the nicest, kindest people I have ever served looked like bikers. And it was kinda neat that here is this big, tough guy, but is so nice to me. They knew how to treat me with respect.

None taken at all. :salute:

[Gunny]

The freedom of association is an American right, not a privilege. An individual is not guilty of a crime that they did not participate in or play a part in. Simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, regardless of the ultimate outcome of this incident, does not justify incarceration or excessively punitive bail for 170+ individuals.
Thomas Paul Landers like many others is being charged with organized crime and being held on $1 million bail because of exercising his fundamental rights of association and expression. The purpose for Mr. Landers presence at Twin Peaks was purely political in nature as Mr. Landers is, irrefutably, a prominent motorcycle rights advocate in Texas and Across America.
It is unjust to sacrifice an individual's access to due process and the right to free association for the purpose of prosecutorial convenience. The scope of the tragedy does not usurp absolute and fundamental freedoms demanded by the constitution. Promoting fear to justify draconian actions is untenable and deplorable.
The deprivations occurring in Texas are impacting the doctrine of freedom everywhere. Justice demands the immediate release of Thomas Paul Landers and others! Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not a crime. Punishing people because they were responsibly gathering to participate in the democratic process sends the wrong message to Texas and the nation. Remember, even in the face of tragedy, those that sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither. And this is incontrovertibly an issue of freedom of expression and association in a free society.

http://txcocinews.org/cta2-waco-tragedy.html

Good point. Glad you brought it up. Jail is unconstitutional.

[revelarts]

Exactly the point, many in that picture rode with outlaw clubs at one point, just because you look a certain way should not make you guilty. The Government did this years ago with the Rico act, at least back then it was if you wore the same cut, looks like at least here they are now saying you are guilty for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you look a certain way.

not fair at all is it.
welcome to the world minorities often live in.

[Gunny]

not fair at all is it.
welcome to the world minorities often live in.

That's BS. How you present yourself is a choice. Choices come with consequences.

How about some personal responsibility here?

[Max R.]

Exactly the point, many in that picture rode with outlaw clubs at one point, just because you look a certain way should not make you guilty. The Government did this years ago with the Rico act, at least back then it was if you wore the same cut, looks like at least here they are now saying you are guilty for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, or because you look a certain way.

Agreed and it doesn't make you guilty, yet people are subjected to "stop and frisk" just because of the way they look. Although such harassment strikes me as unconstitutional, if nothing is found, they aren't busted. Still it ain't right. There has to be a better way.

Maybe small town cops don't know the difference, but I'm sure most state law enforcement have the resources to know the difference between a law-biding motorcycle club and an outlaw gang. Even police have motorcycle clubs.

http://www.tgia.net/motorcycle-clubs.html

[Max R.]

That's BS. How you present yourself is a choice. Choices come with consequences.

How about some personal responsibility here?
Agreed. Dress and hang around outlaws, gang-bangers, gangstas and the like and people shouldn't be surprised if others think they are those people.

[Jeff]

Agreed and it doesn't make you guilty, yet people are subjected to "stop and frisk" just because of the way they look. Although such harassment strikes me as unconstitutional, if nothing is found, they aren't busted. Still it ain't right. There has to be a better way.

Maybe small town cops don't know the difference, but I'm sure most state law enforcement have the resources to know the difference between a law-biding motorcycle club and an outlaw gang. Even police have motorcycle clubs.

http://www.tgia.net/motorcycle-clubs.html

Yes you would think the cops would know the difference, I wear a Christian flag on the back of my cut ( as you seen ) and have been hassled just because of the way I look, but I spent my life in the seat of a big truck so having police hassle me isn't anything new and honestly after they do their best John Wayne ( tough guy act ) and you don't cuss them out or try to hide something, most become friendly, heck I have had cops sit and talk with me about bikes, guns and or woman for long periods after they run us.

It is their job I know but what happened in TX wasn't just doing your job. What I read the cops knew this was coming and even warned the Restaurant about it, the cops knew it as did the Bandido's, the Cossacks thought they where going to meet and iron things out ( club sit downs happen all the time ) Now if the cops knew this was going to happen why not prevent it instead of just opening fire ? That is the issue I have, there where a lot of innocent bikers there just hanging out and all where in harms way.

[Max R.]

.....It is their job I know but what happened in TX wasn't just doing your job. What I read the cops knew this was coming and even warned the Restaurant about it, the cops knew it as did the Bandido's, the Cossacks thought they where going to meet and iron things out ( club sit downs happen all the time ) Now if the cops knew this was going to happen why not prevent it instead of just opening fire ? That is the issue I have, there where a lot of innocent bikers there just hanging out and all where in harms way.

My understanding is the police knew trouble was probably brewing (all those biker gangs in town!), but what can they do if no laws are broken? The First and Fourth Amendments spring to mind.

As for the gunfight, the reports I read had the Bandidos firing first and dropping three Cossacks. Is there a reliable account showing who shot who out of the nine dead?

[Jeff]

My understanding is the police knew trouble was probably brewing (all those biker gangs in town!), but what can they do if no laws are broken? The First and Fourth Amendments spring to mind.

As for the gunfight, the reports I read had the Bandidos firing first and dropping three Cossacks. Is there a reliable account showing who shot who out of the nine dead?

I have read the same thing, The article I read has the Bandidos coming to the party late, they where suppose to meet at like noon and they showed at like 12:45 and the P ran into one of the Cossacks prospects and then complained he was in the way, and the shooting began, but that is where the story gets weird, yes I read the first four to fall where Cossacks but the thing that is cloudy is they aren't sure if the Bandido's dropped the first four or the police did. If the police opened fire first they are wrong, if they opened fire on a crowd because shots where fired they are wrong, but I am not real sure anyone is ever going to hear the truth of what really happened there.

As for trouble brewing the cops knew enough to want to charge the restaurant for not closing down because they warned them of the problems where coming. As for all the Biker Gangs in town, I don't live there but the only 2 I knew that where there where the 2 in the fight, I heard of many independents there hanging out but as far as Clubs ( gangs ) they where all I know that was represented.

[Max R.]

I have read the same thing, The article I read has the Bandidos coming to the party late, they where suppose to meet at like noon and they showed at like 12:45 and the P ran into one of the Cossacks prospects and then complained he was in the way, and the shooting began, but that is where the story gets weird, yes I read the first four to fall where Cossacks but the thing that is cloudy is they aren't sure if the Bandido's dropped the first four or the police did. If the police opened fire first they are wrong, if they opened fire on a crowd because shots where fired they are wrong, but I am not real sure anyone is ever going to hear the truth of what really happened there.

As for trouble brewing the cops knew enough to want to charge the restaurant for not closing down because they warned them of the problems where coming. As for all the Biker Gangs in town, I don't live there but the only 2 I knew that where there where the 2 in the fight, I heard of many independents there hanging out but as far as Clubs ( gangs ) they where all I know that was represented.

Sorry, but I'm not buying that the police opened up on a crowd. Occam's Razor. This started out as a gang brawl between a couple of hotheads, but most people there were none violent; hence the low number of casualties but the high numbers of arrests.

[Jeff]

Sorry, but I'm not buying that the police opened up on a crowd. Occam's Razor. This started out as a gang brawl between a couple of hotheads, but most people there were none violent; hence the low number of casualties but the high numbers of arrests.

I can only tell you what I read as I wasn't there, again this morning I watched a video that said at least 4 killed by police but they have no proof, but I did also hear this morning that there was 5 different clubs there, I know you had mentioned more than 2 and I had said I believed it was only 2. Facts keep coming out of this case and I don't believe any will ever know the truth, but what we do know is cops killed some, we also know the cops knew this was coming, so why not stop it before it began is my question. I have seen post where people say the cops couldn''t stop it before it happened , there had to be a law broken, well if you have ever road with a bunch of bikes and been pulled over, yea they can pretty much stop most things. :laugh:

[Max R.]

I can only tell you what I read as I wasn't there, again this morning I watched a video that said at least 4 killed by police but they have no proof, but I did also hear this morning that there was 5 different clubs there, I know you had mentioned more than 2 and I had said I believed it was only 2. Facts keep coming out of this case and I don't believe any will ever know the truth, but what we do know is cops killed some, we also know the cops knew this was coming, so why not stop it before it began is my question. I have seen post where people say the cops couldn''t stop it before it happened , there had to be a law broken, well if you have ever road with a bunch of bikes and been pulled over, yea they can pretty much stop most things. :laugh:
I don't know all the details, but it initial reports I've read said it was meeting hosted by the Bandidos with allied "clubs". There is a conflict as to whether or not the Cossack were invited or they crashed the meeting.

[gabosaurus]

The freedom of association is an American right, not a privilege. An individual is not guilty of a crime that they did not participate in or play a part in. Simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time, regardless of the ultimate outcome of this incident, does not justify incarceration or excessively punitive bail...

Welcome to the world of minorities and Muslims. :cool:

It's called "guilt by association." Using to be common among long-haired hippies in the 60's and 70's. Always been practiced amongst blacks. Most recently became prevalent with those perceived to be Arab or Muslim.
Let's face it, if you ride a motorcycle and wear a leather jacket, you are part of a biker gang. You are a troublemaker. The police should stop and frisk you if they catch you riding in the wrong neighborhood. If there are more than a half-dozen of you in the same location, most likely you are a part of a gang. The police will want to know which of you has drugs and who is the pimp.
Sorry bikers, but you are guilty until proven innocent. You are not to be trusted. You need to be profiled at every opportunity.
I am not likely to pull into a restaurant or other establishment where I see a lot of bikes. I don't want to be shot at. :cool:

[aboutime]

Welcome to the world of minorities and Muslims. :cool:

It's called "guilt by association." Using to be common among long-haired hippies in the 60's and 70's. Always been practiced amongst blacks. Most recently became prevalent with those perceived to be Arab or Muslim.
Let's face it, if you ride a motorcycle and wear a leather jacket, you are part of a biker gang. You are a troublemaker. The police should stop and frisk you if they catch you riding in the wrong neighborhood. If there are more than a half-dozen of you in the same location, most likely you are a part of a gang. The police will want to know which of you has drugs and who is the pimp.
Sorry bikers, but you are guilty until proven innocent. You are not to be trusted. You need to be profiled at every opportunity.
I am not likely to pull into a restaurant or other establishment where I see a lot of bikes. I don't want to be shot at. :cool:


Gabby. So, you are telling us Police Officers who ride motorcycles should be stopped by civilians on the highways, and frisked? Isn't that SPECIAL....YOU, endorsing PROFILING?

[Gunny]

Welcome to the world of minorities and Muslims. :cool:

It's called "guilt by association." Using to be common among long-haired hippies in the 60's and 70's. Always been practiced amongst blacks. Most recently became prevalent with those perceived to be Arab or Muslim.
Let's face it, if you ride a motorcycle and wear a leather jacket, you are part of a biker gang. You are a troublemaker. The police should stop and frisk you if they catch you riding in the wrong neighborhood. If there are more than a half-dozen of you in the same location, most likely you are a part of a gang. The police will want to know which of you has drugs and who is the pimp.
Sorry bikers, but you are guilty until proven innocent. You are not to be trusted. You need to be profiled at every opportunity.
I am not likely to pull into a restaurant or other establishment where I see a lot of bikes. I don't want to be shot at. :cool:

That's BS.