Christ in the Book of Mormon

[avatar4321]

I've posted similiar threads elsewhere and I've found I get a good result and occasionally good discussion. It's a topic that is close to my heart. I've been thinking a lot about it. One of the purposes of the Book of Mormon is to convince both Jew and Gentile that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and promised Messiah and that His atonement is our salvation.

In fact, the first writer of the Book of Mormon wrote the following:


And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins. (2 Nephi 25:26)

I've found that many people aren't familiar with what the Book of Mormon teaches. And are often surprised by the teachings of Christ. I also believe it can be a powerful tool in convincing people to believe in Jesus.

The following is only of my favorite passages. It's the appearance of Christ and the beginning of His ministry among the natives after His resurrection.



And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the sign had been given concerning his death.
3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a smallvoice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.
4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they understood it not.
5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did open their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.
6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:
7 Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.
8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, theysaw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.
9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:
10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.
11 And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me, and have glorified the Father in takingupon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words the whole multitude fell to the earth; for they remembered that it had been prophesied among them that Christ should show himself unto them after his ascension into heaven.
13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrustyour hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.
16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:
17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and didworship him. (3 Nephi 11:2-17)


I'm sure you can see why that passage speaks to me. I've read it many times and I still fee awe at the awesome experience to witness the Lord in the flesh.

I'd really like this thread to stay on topic with Christ. If you have something non topic related I'm sure we can discuss it elsewhere.

[WiccanLiberal]

I am not sure I can contribute anything much as I have only a smattering of knowledge about Mormons. I have always been interested in comparative religion and have read the scriptural writings of many faiths. I will follow any discussion with interest to see what else I can learn.

[tailfins]

The Mormon "Jesus" was a procreated being, polygamist and brother of Lucifer. Just because they use the name Jesus doesn't mean they worship the REAL Jesus. Mormons also believe that Jesus only paid for Adam's sin and that a person's salvation is works based.

The below link gives a nice analysis.

https://www.probe.org/mormon-doctrine-of-jesus/

[avatar4321]

I prefer going to the source.

This is the testimony of Amulek concerning the atonement of Christ which He shared with the poor who had been cast out and persecuted by an apostate group among them.


My brethren, I think that it is impossible that ye should be ignorant of the things which have been spoken concerning the coming of Christ, who is taught by us to be the Son of God; yea, I know that these thingswere taught unto you bountifully before your dissension from among us.
3 And as ye have desired of my beloved brother that he should make known unto you what ye should do, because of your afflictions; and he hath spoken somewhat unto you to prepare your minds; yea, and he hath exhorted you unto faith and to patience—
4 Yea, even that ye would have so much faith as even toplant the word in your hearts, that ye may try the experiment of its goodness.
5 And we have beheld that the great question which is in your minds is whether the word be in the Son of God, or whether there shall be no Christ.
6 And ye also beheld that my brother has proved unto you, in many instances, that the word is in Christ unto salvation.
7 My brother has called upon the words of Zenos, that redemption cometh through the Son of God, and also upon the words of Zenock; and also he has appealed unto Moses, to prove that these things are true.
8 And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all arefallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternalsacrifice.
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hathmurdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding ofblood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea,infinite and eternal.
15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.
17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you;
18 Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is mighty to save.
19 Yea, humble yourselves, and continue in prayer unto him.
20 Cry unto him when ye are in your fields, yea, over all your flocks.
21 Cry unto him in your houses, yea, over all your household, both morning, mid-day, and evening.
22 Yea, cry unto him against the power of yourenemies.
23 Yea, cry unto him against the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness.
24 Cry unto him over the crops of your fields, that ye may prosper in them.
25 Cry over the flocks of your fields, that they may increase.
26 But this is not all; ye must pour out your souls in your closets, and your secret places, and in your wilderness.
27 Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let yourhearts be full, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your welfare, and also for the welfare of those who are around you.
28 And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye turn away the needy, and thenaked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need—I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith.
29 Therefore, if ye do not remember to be charitable, ye are as dross, which the refiners do cast out, (it being of no worth) and is trodden under foot of men. (Alma 34:2-29 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/alma/34?lang=eng))



I felt impressed to share this passage. Maybe because of how clearly it teaches the need for the atonement of Jesus Christ. Maybe it's because it encourages me to pray in all area of my life. To be sincere and not be hypocritical in my walk. Or maybe it was the exhortation at the end:



And now, my beloved brethren, I desire that ye should remember these things, and that ye should workout your salvation with fear before God, and that ye should no more deny the coming of Christ;
38 That ye contend no more against the Holy Ghost, but that ye receive it, and take upon you the name of Christ; that ye humble yourselves even to the dust, andworship God, in whatsoever place ye may be in, in spirit and in truth; and that ye live in thanksgiving daily, for the many mercies and blessings which he doth bestow upon you.
39 Yea, and I also exhort you, my brethren, that ye bewatchful unto prayer continually, that ye may not be led away by the temptations of the devil, that he may not overpower you, that ye may not become his subjects at the last day; for behold, he rewardeth you no good thing.
40 And now my beloved brethren, I would exhort you to have patience, and that ye bear with all manner ofafflictions; that ye do not revile against those who do cast you out because of your exceeding poverty, lest ye become sinners like unto them;
41 But that ye have patience, and bear with those afflictions, with a firm hope that ye shall one day rest from all your afflictions. (Alma 34:37-41)


I think this is just a prime example of why I love the Book of Mormon. Because it brings me closer to Christ and helps me to understand what He has done for me. It encourages me to walk in the way the Lord wants.

And I can guarantee anyone who studies it with an open heart and open mind will come closer to Christ and gain a better understanding of His gospel.

[avatar4321]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/safety-for-the-soul?lang=eng


I wanted to share this and it seemed an appropriate place.



May I refer to a modern “last days” testimony? When Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum started for Carthage to face what they knew would be an imminent martyrdom, Hyrum read these words to comfort the heart of his brother:


“Thou hast been faithful; wherefore … thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father.


“And now I, Moroni, bid farewell … until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ.” 7


A few short verses from the 12th chapter of Ether in the Book of Mormon. Before closing the book, Hyrum turned down the corner of the page from which he had read, marking it as part of the everlasting testimony for which these two brothers were about to die. I hold in my hand that book, the very copy from which Hyrum read, the same corner of the page turned down, still visible. Later, when actually incarcerated in the jail, Joseph the Prophet turned to the guards who held him captive and bore a powerful testimony of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. 8Shortly thereafter pistol and ball would take the lives of these two testators.


As one of a thousand elements of my own testimony of the divinity of the Book of Mormon, I submit this as yet one more evidence of its truthfulness. In this their greatest—and last—hour of need, I ask you: would these men blaspheme before God by continuing to fix their lives, their honor, and their own search for eternal salvation on a book (and by implication a church and a ministry) they had fictitiously created out of whole cloth?


Never mind that their wives are about to be widows and their children fatherless. Never mind that their little band of followers will yet be “houseless, friendless and homeless” and that their children will leave footprints of blood across frozen rivers and an untamed prairie floor. 9 Never mind that legions will die and other legions live declaring in the four quarters of this earth that they know the Book of Mormon and the Church which espouses it to be true. Disregard all of that, and tell me whether in this hour of death these two men would enter the presence of their Eternal Judge quoting from and finding solace in a book which, if not the very word of God, would brand them as imposters and charlatans until the end of time? They would not do that! They were willing to die rather than deny the divine origin and the eternal truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.


For 179 years this book has been examined and attacked, denied and deconstructed, targeted and torn apart like perhaps no other book in modern religious history—perhaps like no other book in any religious history. And still it stands. Failed theories about its origins have been born and parroted and have died—from Ethan Smith to Solomon Spaulding to deranged paranoid to cunning genius. None of these frankly pathetic answers for this book has ever withstood examination because there is no other answer than the one Joseph gave as its young unlearned translator. In this I stand with my own great-grandfather, who said simply enough, “No wicked man could write such a book as this; and no good man would write it, unless it were true and he were commanded of God to do so.” 10


I testify that one cannot come to full faith in this latter-day work—and thereby find the fullest measure of peace and comfort in these, our times—until he or she embraces the divinity of the Book of Mormon and the Lord Jesus Christ, of whom it testifies. If anyone is foolish enough or misled enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and Semitic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages—especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers—if that is the case, then such a person, elect or otherwise, has been deceived; and if he or she leaves this Church, it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit. In that sense the book is what Christ Himself was said to be: “a stone of stumbling, … a rock of offence,” 11 a barrier in the path of one who wishes not to believe in this work. Witnesses, even witnesses who were for a time hostile to Joseph, testified to their death that they had seen an angel and had handled the plates. “They have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man,” they declared. “Wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true.” 12


Now, I did not sail with the brother of Jared in crossing an ocean, settling in a new world. I did not hear King Benjamin speak his angelically delivered sermon. I did not proselyte with Alma and Amulek nor witness the fiery death of innocent believers. I was not among the Nephite crowd who touched the wounds of the resurrected Lord, nor did I weep with Mormon and Moroni over the destruction of an entire civilization. But my testimony of this record and the peace it brings to the human heart is as binding and unequivocal as was theirs. Like them, “ give [my name] unto the world, to witness unto the world that which have seen.” And like them, “ lie not, God bearing witness of it.” 13


I ask that my testimony of the Book of Mormon and all that it implies, given today under my own oath and office, be recorded by men on earth and angels in heaven. I hope I have a few years left in my “last days,” but whether I do or do not, I want it absolutely clear when I stand before the judgment bar of God that I declared to the world, in the most straightforward language I could summon, that the Book of Mormon is true, that it came forth the way Joseph said it came forth and was given to bring happiness and hope to the faithful in the travail of the latter days.


Articulates far better how I feel than I could. I've read the Book of Mormon so many times and every time I am more and more impressed by the message it gives. The Book truly will lead all men to Christ if they study it.

[Gunny]

The Mormon "Jesus" was a procreated being, polygamist and brother of Lucifer. Just because they use the name Jesus doesn't mean they worship the REAL Jesus. Mormons also believe that Jesus only paid for Adam's sin and that a person's salvation is works based.

The below link gives a nice analysis.

https://www.probe.org/mormon-doctrine-of-jesus/

One cannot get to Heaven on works alone.

[red state]

Truly not comparing apples to apples or oranges to oranges BUT, it is FACT that Satan has always strives to emulate God and will do this in the end times through a "trinity" and a "raising up" of his "one" which will cause the world to marvel. Just saying...

By the way, Gunny is spot on. Christianity is not a religion but a way of life with the purpose to be like Christ one day.......having said this, our walk IN Christ is not our atoning for our own deeds or reward so that we may enter Heaven. Christ already did this and then left those who actually followed Him in Israel, to spread the news. Christ had three years in FULL time ministry and left us to finish the race. Christ and/or his disciples also warned against "found" or "new" scripture to that that HE himself ordained through the writers from Genesis to Revelations.

As Tailfins put it, there is MUCH that I have a problem with when dealing with other doctrines that preach a way other than Christ or that Christ was something other that what the "traditional" Bible states. Not meaning to stir up a pot nor do I have time to debate today but MorMANism or any other "ism" when such "ism" adopts, re-writes or manipulates (with purpose) the Holy Scriptures or makes deity out of those other than Christ. We have too many "ISMS" in this world that has has either tried to keep the WORD from others, persecute or kill Christians in the name of their "ism" or war with others and cause war throughout the centuries. Now, with the book of MorMANism, we have a VAST difference of Christ and more of a Sci-Fi novel.....but that is simply my opinion.

Again, no hostility hear.....just word from the wise to those who may not be aware of certain things. As Reagan said; "Trust but VERIFY". I have.

[red state]

Now that I've got coffee in hand, I would like to expand upon Gunny's comment to Tailfins. I believe that works is important to PROVE or Showcase Christ in our lives and to perfect our walk with HIM but I in no way believe that works is part of salvation. Without works, one may question if they truly are of Christ BUT it is not part of the salvation plan. That was taken care of by One who was worthy enough to be on that ole rugged cross and ONE powerful enough to rise again. NONE of us could EVER do enough, pay enough or rise from death victorious as HE did. Just to clarify...

[Max R.]

One cannot get to Heaven on works alone.

It depends upon one's concept of Heaven and Hell. Can an unbaptized baby in the Amazonian jungle who never heard of Christ, Christianity or the Bible get to Heaven? I believe so.

[avatar4321]

One cannot get to Heaven on works alone.

Is anyone claiming to?


And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for theatonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.
29 And now I say unto you that it was expedient that there should be a law given to the children of Israel, yea, even a very strict law; for they were a stiffnecked people,quick to do iniquity, and slow to remember the Lord their God;
30 Therefore there was a law given them, yea, a law of performances and of ordinances, a law which they were to observe strictly from day to day, to keep them in remembrance of God and their duty towards him.
31 But behold, I say unto you, that all these things weretypes of things to come.
32 And now, did they understand the law? I say unto you, Nay, they did not all understand the law; and this because of the hardness of their hearts; for they understood not that there could not any man be savedexcept it were through the redemption of God.
33 For behold, did not Moses prophesy unto them concerning the coming of the Messiah, and that God should redeem his people? Yea, and even all the prophets who have prophesied ever since the world began—have they not spoken more or less concerning these things?
34 Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?
35 Yea, and have they not said also that he should bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, and that he, himself, should be oppressed and afflicted? (Mosiah 13:28-35)


Grace and obedience to the commandments aren't opposing principles.



If grace is a gift of God, why then is obedience to God’s commandments so important? Why bother with God’s commandments—or repentance, for that matter? Why not just admit we’re sinful and let God save us?
Or, to put the question in Paul’s words, “Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?” Paul’s answer is simple and clear: “God forbid.”27 (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng#27-12565_000_47uchtdorf)
Brothers and sisters, we obey the commandments of God—out of love for Him!
Trying to understand God’s gift of grace with all our heart and mind gives us all the more reasons to love and obey our Heavenly Father with meekness and gratitude. As we walk the path of discipleship, it refines us, it improves us, it helps us to become more like Him, and it leads us back to His presence. “The Spirit of the Lord [our God]” brings about such “a mighty change in us, … that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.”28 (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng#28-12565_000_47uchtdorf)
Therefore, our obedience to God’s commandments comes as a natural outgrowth of our endless love and gratitude for the goodness of God. This form of genuine love and gratitude will miraculously merge our works with God’s grace. Virtue will garnish our thoughts unceasingly, and our confidence will wax strong in the presence of God.29 (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng#29-12565_000_47uchtdorf)
Dear brothers and sisters, living the gospel faithfully is not a burden. It is a joyful rehearsal—a preparation for inheriting the grand glory of the eternities. We seek to obey our Heavenly Father because our spirits will become more attuned to spiritual things. Vistas are opened that we never knew existed. Enlightenment and understanding come to us when we do the will of the Father.30 (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng#30-12565_000_47uchtdorf)
Grace is a gift of God, and our desire to be obedient to each of God’s commandments is the reaching out of our mortal hand to receive this sacred gift from our Heavenly Father. The Gift of Grace
(https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng)


The more you understand and study the Book of Mormon, the more you understand the need for a Redeemer. It was a book written to bring men to Christ and exhort them to use the Atonement that was made for them. And it brought me closer to Him every time I've studied it.

[Gunny]

It depends upon one's concept of Heaven and Hell. Can an unbaptized baby in the Amazonian jungle who never heard of Christ, Christianity or the Bible get to Heaven? I believe so.

My answer to that is .... is that NOT a child of God? This topic can go everywhere.

I refuse to believe we, as a human race, just happened by some luck I'd like to take to Vegas out of some primordial ooze. Those who choose to explain it away with "science" fail with every word, and violate the tenets of scientific law with every word. The Big Bang theory: creating something from nothing. Scientifically impossible. Expanding universe: how do you expand something that is infinite?

There's a BIG difference between science and scientific theory, but certain idiots try to flip flop from one to the other the same as they do abortion and partial birth abortion. They just go with the bullshit and think no one can figure it out.

The Bible to me is a guide, and a history, but was written by man. The blood, guts and thunder God of that is not mine. A perfect God would not be vengeful, nor persecute those He created. Nor would He be choosing sides in wars humans created. How can an omnifiscient God punish a child who doesn't know? How does a crack baby get to Heaven? Or the victim of abortion? How does an otherwise innocent arab kid with an RPG that shoots a hummer full of troops get there?

The questions are endless. And I believe the innocent go to Heaven and the guilty go to Hell.

[Gunny]

Is anyone claiming to?



Grace and obedience to the commandments aren't opposing principles.




The more you understand and study the Book of Mormon, the more you understand the need for a Redeemer. It was a book written to bring men to Christ and exhort them to use the Atonement that was made for them. And it brought me closer to Him every time I've studied it.

If you want me to stick a finger on something, Jews think they can get to Heaven on works alone, and so do Jehova's Witnesses. I'm not an expert on the subject but I WAS stuck in a BEQ room with one of each. :laugh:

[red state]

It depends upon one's concept of Heaven and Hell. Can an unbaptized baby in the Amazonian jungle who never heard of Christ, Christianity or the Bible get to Heaven? I believe so.


It is called (age of accountability). The unborn, young children and/or those who have not a clue as to sin or the 'Adult Knowledge' of what sin really is are safe. The Bible says that even in the deepest, darkest jungles, God reveals Himself and I'll have to accept that and do all that I can to support the WORD getting to the far corners of the world and simply follow our HIGH COMMAND in reaching out with the TRUTH.

We are ALL doomed to HELL (if) we reject Christ.....that is the unpardonable sin. The Bible states that Babes are born liars and we ALL fall VERY short from pardoning ourselves.....it is the acceptance of Christ by which we are pardoned. Baptism doesn't save, works doesn't save because our BEST is as filthy rags in God's eyes and we could never be wealthy enough to OUT PAY or MATCH what the precious blood of Christ atoned for.

Does Baptism showcase or testify our following Christ? Yes. Does our works do likewise? Yes. But these are NOT paths to Heaven and are only our appreciation towards the One who gave His all. It is the least we can do but it is NOT salvation.

This is what study and upbringing has taught me anyway and I'll not argue over what one or the other believes. I can merely put it on the table and whomever can accept it or reject it.

Have a great post, gentlemen/ladies....

[Voted4Reagan]

The Mormon "Jesus" was a procreated being, polygamist and brother of Lucifer. Just because they use the name Jesus doesn't mean they worship the REAL Jesus. Mormons also believe that Jesus only paid for Adam's sin and that a person's salvation is works based.

The below link gives a nice analysis.

https://www.probe.org/mormon-doctrine-of-jesus/

Can you ever talk about another religion without going out of our way to insult it, demean it or defame it?

Last I checked there are millions of Mormons in the world. Working hard... raising families... and generally not bothering anyone.

yet you call their Jesus a brother of Satan/Lucifer/Asmodeus/Beelzebub... et al...

[tailfins]

Can you ever talk about another religion without going out of our way to insult it, demean it or defame it?

Last I checked there are millions of Mormons in the world. Working hard... raising families... and generally not bothering anyone.

yet you call their Jesus a brother of Satan/Lucifer/Asmodeus/Beelzebub... et al...

All it takes is a few minutes of effort to see for yourself.

http://www.mrm.org/lucifers-brother


Consider also the following:Writing for the LDS periodical Times and Seasons, W.W. Phelps stated:
"And again, we exclaim, O Mormonism! No wonder that Lucifer, son of the morning, the next heir to Jesus Christ, our eldest brother, should fight so hard against his brethren; he lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God: and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the priesthood of the son of God!" (Times and Seasons, 5:758)

Seventy Joseph Young (brother of Brigham Young):
"Who is it that is at the head of this? It is the Devil, the mighty Lucifer, the great prince of the angels, and the brother of Jesus." (Journal of Discourses 6:207).

Mormon Apostle James Talmage:
"Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth, tabernacled as He then was in mortal flesh, may not have remembered His preexistent state, nor the part He had taken in the great council of the Gods; while Satan, an unembodied spirit—he the disinherited, the rebellious and rejected son—seeking to tempt the Being through whom the world was created by promising Him part of what was wholly His, still may have had, as indeed he may yet have, a remembrance of those primeval scenes." (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p.132)

Mormon Apostle John A. Widtsoe:
"The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. Lucifer, son of the morning, through diligent search for truth and the use of it, had become one of the foremost in the assembly of those invited to undertake the experiences of earth. But, in that Great Council, his personal ambition and love of power overcame him. He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ" (John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, p.209).

In 1915 the LDS periodical Improvement Era ran an article titled, “The Temptation of Christ.” In it the following points were made:
“It is said that after Jesus had fasted forty days he was an hungered. How keen the pangs of starvation we shall never know. He must have been at the point of famishing or the greatest test was not yet made. The hour had come to strike. Every spirit throughout the limitless empires was intense with fear and hope. The two brothers were about to meet-the one starving and trembling, was at his weakest point, proving himself to be worthy of being the Savior of the world; the other, Lucifer, the star of the morning, though defeated in heaven, was now at the height of his glory; the prince of earth, with all nations at his feet… Did Lucifer pale at the thought of offering all of his conquests? Yet, to be rejected would be a defeat as fatal as his defeat in heaven. Stand with me in fancy's realm and picture the scene anew; the two brothers are face to face, the one holding the kingdoms of the earth as his own; the other come to redeem them from their enslaved condition. Lucifer not only claimed the earth and her inhabitants, but he held them in the bondage of ignorance and superstition." (Improvement Era, October 1915, volume XVIII, number 12)

12th Mormon President Spencer W. Kimball:
"Long before you were born a program was developed by your creators ... The principal personalities in this great drama were a Father Elohim, perfect in wisdom, judgment, and person, and two sons, Lucifer and Jehovah." (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, pp. 32-33).


“In the wilderness of Judaea, on the temple’s pinnacles and on the high mountain, a momentous contest took place between two brothers, Jehovah and Lucifer, sons of Elohim… Satan, also a son of God, had rebelled and had been cast out of heaven and not permitted an earthly body as had his brother Jehovah. Much depended upon the outcome of this spectacular duel” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.34).
"The importance of not accommodating temptation in the least degree is underlined by the Savior's example. Did not he recognize the danger when he was on the mountain with his fallen brother, Lucifer, being sorely tempted by that master tempter?" (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.163. See alsoTeachings of Presidents of the Church; Spencer W. Kimball, (https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36500_eng.pdf?lang=eng) pp.107-108).
"Similarly Satan had contended for the subservience of Moses. Satan, also a son of God, had rebelled and had been cast out of heaven and not permitted an earthly body as had his brother Jehovah. Much depended upon the outcome of this spectacular duel" (Faith Precedes the Miracle, p.87).

Mormon Apostle Robert D. Hales:
"We cannot remember that we once lived with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and that we probably sat in meetings much like this, where the Father's plan for us was explained. We cannot remember that Lucifer, a son of God the Father, a brother of Jesus Christ, rebelled against God's plan and, in his rebellion, promised he would bring us all back home. But Lucifer would have denied us our free agency, the freedom to make decisions. We cannot remember that his plan was not accepted by us because, without choice, there would not have been a purpose for coming to this mortal probation. We would not have had opposition or repentance. We would not have learned obedience." (Robert D. Hales, "The Aaronic Priesthood: Return with Honor," (http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1990/04/the-aaronic-priesthood-return-with-honor?lang=eng&query=aaronic+priesthood%3a+return+with+honor) Ensign, Conference edition, May 1990, 39).

In 1946 a new course of study was released for the Melchizedek Priesthood quorums, Written and published under the direction of the general authorities, it was authored by LDS Seventy Milton R. Hunter, and published under the title of The Gospel Through the Ages:
"The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind." (Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, p.15)

Mormon Apostle Joseph F. Merrill:
"Now there is another personality of which I desire to speak, one that the world calls by a name, but in whose reality as a personal Being it does not believe and that person is Satan, the Devil. But according to our understanding and teaching. Satan is a person with a spirit body, in form like that of all other men. He is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother in the spirit world" (Conference Reports, April 1949, p.27).

In the “I Have a Question” section of the LDS magazine Ensign, Jess L. Christensen wrote:
“On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers.Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)” (Jess L. Christensen, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, June 1986 (http://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/06/i-have-a-question), pp.25–26.)

In their book No More Strangers, Emeritus General Authority Hartman Rector, Jr., and his wife Connie, record the following story as told by LDS Church member Naomi Adair Hendrickson:
"This is what they [the Mormon missionaries] told me: God has a physical body shaped like a man's except that it is a resurrected and perfected body of flesh and bones and spirit-no longer corruptible. He has a head, body, legs, and arms such as ours. He has feelings and emotions-love, compassion, jealousy, anger, and so on-much as we have, though in him they are controlled and exercised to perfection. He once was as we are now, and we may some day become as he is now. He once lived in accordance with eternal laws on a planet such as ours. In due time he obtained the power to beget spirit children---to become a God or Father in heaven. Jesus Christ was the first born of his children in heaven. Probably Lucifer similarly was among those early born spirits. Both are older brothers of ours, Jesus Christ being our eldest brother. We were created in God's image." (No More Strangers, 3:91)

John Henry Evans, a highly respected Mormon author, noted:
"As for the devil and his fellow spirits, they are brothers to man and also to Jesus and sons and daughters of God in the same sense that we are." (John Henry Evans, Joseph Smith: An American Prophet, p. 341)

Brent L. Top, an LDS author who has contributed many articles to LDS publications, including Ensign, wrote:
"Almost like echoes from eternity past, one can logically hear Lucifer using the same types of arguments as he denounced Jehovah. He may have accused him of oppressing and misleading the spirit children of God so that he might have power over them. Perhaps, because of the perils inherent in the Father's plan, Satan could cleverly (though falsely) accuse Jehovah of indifference towards his brothers and sisters, since many would be lost." (Brent L. Top, The Life Before, pp.126-127)

That Jesus and Lucifer are considered brothers in Mormon thought cannot be denied. That being the case, Mormons really have no right to act incredulous when such a question is raised about what has historically been a part of their doctrine. In doing so, they only exacerbate the suspicion many have for Mormons and the church they represent.

[tailfins]

Can you ever talk about another religion without going out of our way to insult it, demean it or defame it?

Last I checked there are millions of Mormons in the world. Working hard... raising families... and generally not bothering anyone.

yet you call their Jesus a brother of Satan/Lucifer/Asmodeus/Beelzebub... et al...

Of course, here's the company you're in running around calling people "religious bigots":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjeS6sNBFqw

[Max R.]

It is called (age of accountability). The unborn, young children and/or those who have not a clue as to sin or the 'Adult Knowledge' of what sin really is are safe. The Bible says that even in the deepest, darkest jungles, God reveals Himself and I'll have to accept that and do all that I can to support the WORD getting to the far corners of the world and simply follow our HIGH COMMAND in reaching out with the TRUTH.

We are ALL doomed to HELL (if) we reject Christ.....that is the unpardonable sin. The Bible states that Babes are born liars and we ALL fall VERY short from pardoning ourselves.....it is the acceptance of Christ by which we are pardoned. Baptism doesn't save, works doesn't save because our BEST is as filthy rags in God's eyes and we could never be wealthy enough to OUT PAY or MATCH what the precious blood of Christ atoned for.

Does Baptism showcase or testify our following Christ? Yes. Does our works do likewise? Yes. But these are NOT paths to Heaven and are only our appreciation towards the One who gave His all. It is the least we can do but it is NOT salvation.

This is what study and upbringing has taught me anyway and I'll not argue over what one or the other believes. I can merely put it on the table and whomever can accept it or reject it.

Have a great post, gentlemen/ladies....
How can an adult deep in the Amazonian jungle know about Christ? If God is love, then I fail to see how someone can be condemned to Hell for not hearing about Christ.

[Max R.]

My answer to that is .... is that NOT a child of God? This topic can go everywhere.

I refuse to believe we, as a human race, just happened by some luck I'd like to take to Vegas out of some primordial ooze. Those who choose to explain it away with "science" fail with every word, and violate the tenets of scientific law with every word. The Big Bang theory: creating something from nothing. Scientifically impossible. Expanding universe: how do you expand something that is infinite?

There's a BIG difference between science and scientific theory, but certain idiots try to flip flop from one to the other the same as they do abortion and partial birth abortion. They just go with the bullshit and think no one can figure it out.

The Bible to me is a guide, and a history, but was written by man. The blood, guts and thunder God of that is not mine. A perfect God would not be vengeful, nor persecute those He created. Nor would He be choosing sides in wars humans created. How can an omnifiscient God punish a child who doesn't know? How does a crack baby get to Heaven? Or the victim of abortion? How does an otherwise innocent arab kid with an RPG that shoots a hummer full of troops get there?

The questions are endless. And I believe the innocent go to Heaven and the guilty go to Hell.

Agreed on many points. I think God is a lot bigger than any of us can imagine and not the petty God some people think or claim.

On my Heaven and Hell remark, I think we put ourselves in Heaven or Hell by choosing to move toward God's grace or away from it. Lucifer chose to move away from God's grace. With all of eternity, maybe Lucifer will eventually realize the error of his ways. If so, will God accept him back or hold a grudge forever? I think God truly is all merciful and all loving.

[tailfins]

How can an adult deep in the Amazonian jungle know about Christ? If God is love, then I fail to see how someone can be condemned to Hell for not hearing about Christ.

It's a failure on the believers who didn't spread the Gospel that cause them to perish. As someone who married into the culture of the Amazon jungle, I can tell you that Indigenous people in Brazil are being actively evangelized. My father-in-law, having Tupi lineage himself, has helped some of the Tupi sub-tribes develop a written language so they can have the word of God. It sometimes means eating boiled monkey with a grateful smile, to gain their trust and share the Gospel. While some here think I'm a total extremist against the occult, my wife's family is even more so. My wife gets rather upset if we even have a deck of ordinary playing cards in the house (they can be used for fortune-telling). Please stay as far away from the occult as you can. The black spiritual works of the unevangelized Tupi are beyond words. You do know that perhaps 500 years ago, they ate their enemies, right? It is still part of Northern Brazilian slang "Eu vou te comer." when someone is REALLY angry.

[Max R.]

It's a failure on the believers who didn't spread the Gospel that cause them to perish. As someone who married into the culture of the Amazon jungle, I can tell you that Indigenous people in Brazil are being actively evangelized. My father-in-law, having Tupi lineage himself, has helped some of the Tupi sub-tribes develop a written language so they can have the word of God. It sometimes means eating boiled monkey with a grateful smile, to gain their trust and share the Gospel. While some here think I'm a total extremist against the occult, my wife's family is even more so. My wife gets rather upset if we even have a deck of ordinary playing cards in the house (they can be used for fortune-telling). Please stay as far away from the occult as you can. The black spiritual works of the unevangelized Tupi are beyond words. You do know that perhaps 500 years ago, they ate their enemies, right? It is still part of Northern Brazilian slang "Eu vou te comer." when someone is REALLY angry.
I strongly doubt an all merciful God would punish someone for ignorance or for the failures of others.

This is one of the reasons I broke with dogmatic religions; the proponents are so wrapped about the trappings of their religion they forget why the religion is there in the first place; to bring us closer to God.

[avatar4321]

Truly not comparing apples to apples or oranges to oranges BUT, it is FACT that Satan has always strives to emulate God and will do this in the end times through a "trinity" and a "raising up" of his "one" which will cause the world to marvel. Just saying...

By the way, Gunny is spot on. Christianity is not a religion but a way of life with the purpose to be like Christ one day.......having said this, our walk IN Christ is not our atoning for our own deeds or reward so that we may enter Heaven. Christ already did this and then left those who actually followed Him in Israel, to spread the news. Christ had three years in FULL time ministry and left us to finish the race. Christ and/or his disciples also warned against "found" or "new" scripture to that that HE himself ordained through the writers from Genesis to Revelations.

As Tailfins put it, there is MUCH that I have a problem with when dealing with other doctrines that preach a way other than Christ or that Christ was something other that what the "traditional" Bible states. Not meaning to stir up a pot nor do I have time to debate today but MorMANism or any other "ism" when such "ism" adopts, re-writes or manipulates (with purpose) the Holy Scriptures or makes deity out of those other than Christ. We have too many "ISMS" in this world that has has either tried to keep the WORD from others, persecute or kill Christians in the name of their "ism" or war with others and cause war throughout the centuries. Now, with the book of MorMANism, we have a VAST difference of Christ and more of a Sci-Fi novel.....but that is simply my opinion.

Again, no hostility hear.....just word from the wise to those who may not be aware of certain things. As Reagan said; "Trust but VERIFY". I have.


Been pondering and praying how to respond here. I had a reply written out immediately but I didn't care for it. It didn't feel right.

I completely agree with the trust but verify adage. God does not expect us not to verify. That's why He gives the Holy Ghost to us to teach us all things. In fact, Paul state:


"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Essentially, the same principle as trust and verify.

And that's exactly what I am proposing. I'm not asking you to simply take my word for it about the Book of Mormon. I'm showing you what it says and encouraging you to study it for yourself. Have you? I don't just mean a casual read but an actual in depth study of the volume?

I've found that most haven't. And considering the powerful witness it is for the reality of the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ it's a shame. It's through studying the Book of Mormon that I learned why Jesus had to die on the cross. Why the Atonement is necessary.

For example, in Alma a man named Amulek preaches how the atonement of Christ is necessary for salvation:


And now, behold, I will testify unto you of myself that these things are true. Behold, I say unto you, that I do know that Christ shall come among the children of men, to take upon him the transgressions of his people, and that he shall atone for the sins of the world; for the Lord God hath spoken it.
9 For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all arefallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternalsacrifice.
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hathmurdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding ofblood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea,infinite and eternal.
15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.
17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you; (Alma 34:8-17)


This is just one of countless testimonies of the Savior. The first writer, Nephi, said the following:


And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.
28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffneckedpeople; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law. (2 Nephi 25:26-28)


Everything in the Book of Mormon points to Christ. In fact Nephi wanted people to come to Christ regardless of whether we believe his testimony.


And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words andbelieve in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. (2 Nephi 33:10-11)


I'm sure you get my point. Is this a different Christ than the Bible? No. Is this supplanting Christ? No. It's encouraging men to come to Him.

I encourage everyone to study the Book of Mormon for yourself. Compare it to the Bible in your own studies. Ponder the tender mercies of the Lord and take the challenge the Book of Mormon gives:

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, havingfaith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know thetruth of all things.
6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.
7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, accordingto the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever." (Moroni 10:3-7)

The scriptures tell us to prove all things. How can you prove without studying for yourself? I took the challenge for myself. And the Spirit taught me that the Book of Mormon is true. It has power to bring all men to Jesus Christ. Trust Him and He will verify it for you as well.

[avatar4321]

It depends upon one's concept of Heaven and Hell. Can an unbaptized baby in the Amazonian jungle who never heard of Christ, Christianity or the Bible get to Heaven? I believe so.

Baptism isn't impossible even in that situation.

[avatar4321]

If you want me to stick a finger on something, Jews think they can get to Heaven on works alone, and so do Jehova's Witnesses. I'm not an expert on the subject but I WAS stuck in a BEQ room with one of each. :laugh:

And yet we don't. We believe without Christ it would be impossible. I know personally I screw up so often I don't think I could function in this world without the hope I have in Christ.

That is the reason I want to share the Book of Mormon with people. Because I believe it was brought forth by the power of God to bring all men to Christ. In fact, the very way it was brought forth is a type for Christ.

Like Christ, the Book of Mormon was buried and brought out of the ground. Like Christ, it has twelve official witnesses.

It's also not a coincidence that the Book of Mormon came forth during the feast of trumpets to prepare the world for His Second Coming.

The more I study the Book, the more I am convinced that God gave it to us as a guide to Christ and through the trials of the last days.

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of-presidents-of-the-church-ezra-taft-benson/chapter-10-flooding-the-earth-and-our-lives-with-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

"The Book of Mormon … was written for our day. The Nephites never had the book; neither did the Lamanites of ancient times. It was meant for us. Mormon wrote near the end of the Nephite civilization. Under the inspiration of God, who sees all things from the beginning, he abridged centuries of records, choosing the stories, speeches, and events that would be most helpful to us.
Each of the major writers of the Book of Mormon testified that he wrote for future generations. … If they saw our day and chose those things which would be of greatest worth to us, is not that how we should study the Book of Mormon? We should constantly ask ourselves, “Why did the Lord inspire Mormon (or Moroni or Alma) to include that in his record? What lesson can I learn from that to help me live in this day and age?”
And there is example after example of how that question will be answered. For example, in the Book of Mormon we find a pattern for preparing for the Second Coming. A major portion of the book centers on the few decades just prior to Christ’s coming to America. By careful study of that time period, we can determine why some were destroyed in the terrible judgments that preceded His coming and what brought others to stand at the temple in the land of Bountiful and thrust their hands into the wounds of His hands and feet.

From the Book of Mormon we learn how disciples of Christ live in times of war. From the Book of Mormon we see the evils of secret combinations portrayed in graphic and chilling reality. In the Book of Mormon we find lessons for dealing with persecution and apostasy. We learn much about how to do missionary work (http://www.mormon.org/values/missionary-work). And more than anywhere else, we see in the Book of Mormon the dangers of materialism and setting our hearts on the things of the
</pagebreak>world. Can anyone doubt that this book was meant for us and that in it we find great power, great comfort, and great protection?"</p>

[avatar4321]

How can an adult deep in the Amazonian jungle know about Christ? If God is love, then I fail to see how someone can be condemned to Hell for not hearing about Christ.

A little off topic but here.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/138?lang=eng

[avatar4321]

Went out teaching with the missionaries tonight. The Spirit was awesome. During the course of discussion we were inspired to discuss the experiment on faith alma teaches. Thought i would share it. It shows how we can develop knowledge from faith.



26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.


27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.


28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth toenlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.


29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.


30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.


31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.


32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.


33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.


34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.


35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?


36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.


37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.


38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.


39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.


40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.


41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a treespringing up unto everlasting life.


42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck thefruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.


43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you. (Alma 32:26-43)

[revelarts]

How can an adult deep in the Amazonian jungle know about Christ? If God is love, then I fail to see how someone can be condemned to Hell for not hearing about Christ.

I strongly doubt an all merciful God would punish someone for ignorance or for the failures of others.
This is one of the reasons I broke with dogmatic religions; the proponents are so wrapped about the trappings of their religion they forget why the religion is there in the first place; to bring us closer to God.


I'm sure i don't have a complete answer for that or why seemingly innocent people suffer on earth today.

but i have to say, I trust God here.And often people forget that God is not just "love" or just "mercy" He's also JUST, holy, righteous, pure, creator and the king. He can do whatever he wants with his creation.

And if you don't like the idea that he ask that people to trust in Jesus before he' accepts them to live with Him in heaven. Then you don't have a problem with Tailfins, me or "dogmatic religions" but with Jesus Christ and the apostles. You're saying they are Wrong. and you are right because you know better somehow.

that's fine, you have that option, but don't claim it's mean ol religion and religious people who made this up. and they "FORGOT" something about what God's really all about.

I could fill this reply with verses that say what Peter said. "Jesus ... there is no other name under heaven where you may be saved" and what Jesus said "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.".

It's some "trapping" of "religion" it's the words of the FOUNDER, the SOURCE and center of christianity.

You wouldn't be the 1st to left Christianity or "organized religion" because you don't like the idea that some appear not to be able to HEAR the message or some seem to suffer unfairly.

We all ask those questions and i've heard and read many convoluted and detailed answers to those questions myself. But for me finally I have to ask like Peter did when some of the large crowds left Jesus after some of his "hard teachings" .
Jesu asked the 12 disciples "will you go away also?. Peter said ... “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

That sums it up for me. I believe Jesus is THE holy one of God and knows what he's talking about... better than me at the very least.
and i don't see anyone with any better answers in all areas than Jesus and scripture. nothing comes close.

And i'll add this. I'm not willing to make up some concept of God the way i like just to make me feel better or seem "fairer". I'm not a prophet, I perceive God on some level on my own but Jesus and the word bring the clearest light we have.

But maybe you know better Max.

[revelarts]

Avatar I can appreciate your sincerity and I think we agree in many areas.

do you mind if i ask, What do you think a Christian is missing who ONLY uses the old and new testaments?
What do we lack?

you've said many times that Jesus is the Savior. and by God's grace through his atonement only people are saved.
i get ALL this and more from the old and new testaments. I read the scripture and i'm deeply moved in my soul and mind. I've read christian books that don't claim to be written by "prophets" that have pointed to the those scriptures and been moved and seen truth as well.

Why should i take any time to even look at the book of "Morman" or "the pearl of great price" and "doctrine and covenants".

What will be the difference in what i believe already about Jesus?
Do i NEED to read them?
Is there something important lacking in the Old and new testaments?

[avatar4321]

I was reading this today:


"And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory." (1 Nephi 14:14)

With the wickedness so pervasive in the world, it seems that now is the time we all need to be arming ourselves with righteousness and the power of God.


And how do we do that? How are we armed with righteousness. We start becoming righteous. We turn to Christ and become reborn through His sacrifice. We repent of our sins. We stop them. If we lie, we stop and tell the truth. If we steal, we stop and return what we took. If we commit adultery we stop and honor our marriage vows. If we are full of hate, we replace it with love. And most importantly if we are full of pride we replace it with humility.


We need to clean our lives. We need to let Christ sanctify them. Look to Christ and let Him make you what you were meant to be.

[avatar4321]

Avatar I can appreciate your sincerity and I think we agree in many areas.do you mind if i ask, What do you think a Christian is missing who ONLY uses the old and new testaments?What do we lack?you've said many times that Jesus is the Savior. and by God's grace through his atonement only people are saved.i get ALL this and more from the old and new testaments. I read the scripture and i'm deeply moved in my soul and mind. I've read christian books that don't claim to be written by "prophets" that have pointed to the those scriptures and been moved and seen truth as well.Why should i take any time to even look at the book of "Morman" or "the pearl of great price" and "doctrine and covenants".What will be the difference in what i believe already about Jesus?Do i NEED to read them?Is there something important lacking in the Old and new testaments?

I wrote a lengthy response to this earlier and the internet lost it while I was submitting it. Ill try to answer again later when I have time to dedicate to it

[revelarts]

I wrote a lengthy response to this earlier and the internet lost it while I was submitting it. Ill try to answer again later when I have time to dedicate to it

lengthy is fine. i get lengthy

But until then let me ask you this. please just be blunt you won't hurt my feelings or "offend" me.
are christian wrong about Jesus in some respects? Are we wrong about worship in some respects? are we wrong about Heaven? Are christians going to heaven the same as "good" or faithful Mormans?

could you answer those questions with something like.
yes, no, not quite, incomplete, i don't know.

where all adults here and i know you have no personal animosity toward anyone or their beliefs so your frank and honest answers here are would just be helpful?

[Max R.]

Baptism isn't impossible even in that situation.
How can someone who has never heard of Christianity be given a Christian baptism?

[Max R.]

The Mormon "Jesus" was a procreated being, polygamist and brother of Lucifer. Just because they use the name Jesus doesn't mean they worship the REAL Jesus. Mormons also believe that Jesus only paid for Adam's sin and that a person's salvation is works based.

The below link gives a nice analysis.

https://www.probe.org/mormon-doctrine-of-jesus/

As a former member of the RLDS church, I'm familiar with Mormonanism. RLDS members didn't push the Book of Mormon as strongly as LDS members, but it was there.

Anyone besides me think polygamy, a Biblical practice well documented in the Bible, should be legal?

[avatar4321]

Been busy. My niece is moving in with us so we've been preparing. I fully intend to respond to the posts. Just haven't had a long period of time.

[avatar4321]

How can someone who has never heard of Christianity be given a Christian baptism?

By proxy.

[Max R.]

By proxy.
So what happens to all those souls who never encountered a proxy?