Two Americas

[Perianne]

After news broke and made headlines across the country that Confederate flags had been removed from the graves of soldiers in Union Springs, another round of flags reappeared at the cemetery at the center of the controversy. Now, city leaders are looking for some "closure" in the midst of the firestorm of reaction.


A prominent attorney admitted to taking the flags, a move that's sparked positive feedback as well as calls for him to be arrested and disbarred. He's also received death threats and hate mail.

The lawyer says his actions were meant to promote unity.


http://www.wistv.com/story/29080441/removal-of-confederate-flags-from-cemetery-sparks-controversy


http://wsfa.images.worldnow.com/images/7789548_G.jpg






It is time for there to be two Americas.

http://soniceclectic.com/files/2010/11/RedStateBlueState.jpg


Let all the liberals move to the blue states. Leave the red states for us real Americans. I cannot state clearly enough how much I hate liberalism.

[LongTermGuy]

*From comments in the read: I agree...

Linda Taylor (https://www.facebook.com/people/Linda-Taylor/100006383983717) · Works at Self-Employed (https://www.facebook.com/pages/Self-Employed/594445203920155)~"DISBARR HIM NOW THIS WAS AN OLD CONFEDERATE GRAVE YARD. HIS HERITAGE WAS PART OF THIS OLD GRAVE YARD. I NOR MY FAMILY HAD SLAVERYS. THE BIGGEST SLAVE OWNER WAS A BLACK MAN. I AM ETTING SICK AND TIRED OF SLAVERY THROW NOW MY THROAT. GET OFF YOUR SOAP BOX AND GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE AND STOP LIVING IN THE PAST." ~

[Abbey Marie]

http://www.wistv.com/story/29080441/removal-of-confederate-flags-from-cemetery-sparks-controversy
...

It is time for there to be two Americas.

http://soniceclectic.com/files/2010/11/RedStateBlueState.jpg


Let all the liberals move to the blue states. Leave the red states for us real Americans. I cannot state clearly enough how much I hate liberalism.

Too much border-jumping this way. Give libs the Western half, we'll take the Eastern half. This way, everyone gets a little bit of every climate, etc., and they can retain the land of fruit and nuts. Best of all- we get New England back! :eek:

[aboutime]

Anyone happen to remember Abe Lincoln, and something called the Civil War?

If you want TWO Americas...it will be the result of another Civil War.


Please wait till I KICK THE BUCKET. It ain't gonna be pretty, and I want to be safe in my URN!

[Max R.]

I love you Perianne, but disagreed with both breaking up the USA and racism. The Left Wing asshats are the f**king racists, let them wallow in that crap. Let true Americans support all who seek to preserve our Constitution regardless of race.

Notice my grandson on the right in the picture. I never had kids, so neither is my biological grandson and the babe in arms is adopted, but I love both as if they were my own....and I'd give my life shooting any Mother F**ka who tried to harm them. Notice I have the arms to do it too! :D

http://oi61.tinypic.com/2q2jq11.jpg

[Kathianne]

I've never understood why the Confederate Flag means so much to some people. It does though. With that said, it seems to me that they have the right to use it, no matter how I or anyone else feels about it. Same as with someone buying the American Flag just to burn it. I find that despicable, but they do have that right.

What the mayor said about some 'outside group' coming and placing the flags on the gravesites, is a bit tricky I think legally. It seems one of them would have to start an issue about his taking their property, then again, they just placed it on other's property-which a grave is-someone bought that plot.

[aboutime]

I've never understood why the Confederate Flag means so much to some people. It does though. With that said, it seems to me that they have the right to use it, no matter how I or anyone else feels about it. Same as with someone buying the American Flag just to burn it. I find that despicable, but they do have that right.

What the mayor said about some 'outside group' coming and placing the flags on the gravesites, is a bit tricky I think legally. It seems one of them would have to start an issue about his taking their property, then again, they just placed it on other's property-which a grave is-someone bought that plot.


Kathianne. They only do it because...Honestly. They simply aren't smart enough to know, or understand the meaning of respect, or personal responsibility to themselves, or others. Bottom line. Just another sign IMO, that our Educational system in this nation has Honestly been a terrible Failure.
As long as politicians can continue to convince, fool, and lie to the Uneducated. America will suffer.

[Max R.]

I've never understood why the Confederate Flag means so much to some people. It does though. With that said, it seems to me that they have the right to use it, no matter how I or anyone else feels about it. Same as with someone buying the American Flag just to burn it. I find that despicable, but they do have that right.

What the mayor said about some 'outside group' coming and placing the flags on the gravesites, is a bit tricky I think legally. It seems one of them would have to start an issue about his taking their property, then again, they just placed it on other's property-which a grave is-someone bought that plot.
The true sadness is that an honorable battle flag has been usurped by a bunch of racist a**holes.

The Stars and Bars are a symbol of rebellion just like the Gadsden flag is a symbol of rebellion. Our nation was born in rebellion against authority and it remains a solid thread through all Americans who believe in the ideals of our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Did you support those who Occupied Wall Street? If so, why and why not those who rebell against other forms of over-reaching authority?

http://www.uncleflag.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/gadsden%20animated.gif

No, I'm not a member of the National Tea Party since I believe they've been corrupted by monied interests, but I definitely support my local Tea Party group's interest in limiting Federal authority in areas beyond their Constitutional limits.

[Perianne]

I've never understood why the Confederate Flag means so much to some people. It does though. With that said, it seems to me that they have the right to use it, no matter how I or anyone else feels about it. Same as with someone buying the American Flag just to burn it. I find that despicable, but they do have that right.

What the mayor said about some 'outside group' coming and placing the flags on the gravesites, is a bit tricky I think legally. It seems one of them would have to start an issue about his taking their property, then again, they just placed it on other's property-which a grave is-someone bought that plot.

Interesting comparison of burning the flag to the Confederate flag.

I like the American flag because it does represent the South, too. To me, the Confederate flag represents the Southerners' fight against the worst of America Presidents, Abraham Lincoln. I despise his memory and what he did to the South. I also figuratively bow before the Confederate flag for what might have been.

Let's just say that I am a 100% Southern girl.

[Jeff]

I proudly wear the confederate flag on my arm, not for racist reasons nor do I have ancestors ( that I know of that fought for the confederate ) I wear it because I want to, The flag to me represents folks wanting to do things their way, rebellious. Back when I had my first truck in NJ I had the confederate flag flying in the back window. People should have a right to fly what they want to.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7211&stc=1

[Gunny]

http://www.wistv.com/story/29080441/removal-of-confederate-flags-from-cemetery-sparks-controversy


http://wsfa.images.worldnow.com/images/7789548_G.jpg






It is time for there to be two Americas.

http://soniceclectic.com/files/2010/11/RedStateBlueState.jpg


Let all the liberals move to the blue states. Leave the red states for us real Americans. I cannot state clearly enough how much I hate liberalism.

There has ALWAYS been 2 Americas. Problem is, the USA wanted power and control of the South's resources to keep its textile mills running. They just didn't want the Southerners, nor Southerners have equal representation in government. They achieved their goal unconstitutionally by force of arms.

If you chop Chicago off of IL, it's a conservative, rural state.

[Max R.]

There has ALWAYS been 2 Americas. Problem is, the USA wanted power and control of the South's resources to keep its textile mills running. They just didn't want the Southerners, nor Southerners have equal representation in government. They achieved their goal unconstitutionally by force of arms.

If you chop Chicago off of IL, it's a conservative, rural state.A good point about Chicago and rural Illinois. Many of the problems between Left and Right are differences between city citizens and rural citizens.

Although I don't completely agree with the link's author, he does make some interesting points along some interesting maps.

http://gizmodo.com/5960290/this-is-the-real-political-map-of-america-hint-we-are-not-that-divided
This is the real political map of the United States of America after the presidential election. A fascinating view, much different from the maps you saw that night, which showed an artificial, binary divide. But these maps demonstrate that there is not such a huge gap between rural and urban America.
At the top of the column you can see the usual representation by state: who won where. One or the other. It shows a big area of red (republican) and some blue (democrat). If you see the results by county (second in the column), the difference between red and blue is even more overwhelming. Visually, it appears as if a few blue states are imposing their will on a huge majority of red states. We know that's not the case, but that's what the maps convey because we associate area and volume with importance.
That's why those maps are not really good for understanding what really happened. They convey the wrong idea.
The third map of the column is much more accurate. Created by Mark Newman—from the Department of Physics and Center for the Study of Complex Systems, University of Michigan—it mixes blue and red based on popular vote percentage instead of showing a binary representation.
There's no huge area of red. There is a gradient. A lot of purple. That's the accurate map that reflects the actual result of the election. It also shows that the divide between the cities and the countryside is not that huge. There are differences of opinion everywhere.
The large map is even better. It factors in population density, showing the importance of every county based on the population. The lighter the color, the less populated, the less weight in the election. The more saturated it is, the more populated and more weight it shows.
The Republican Party should look at this map and think again for 2016. In fact, everyone should. Those insidious suggestions of impending civil war between urbanites and farmers are wildly exaggerated. [Election Maps (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/) via Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151321923986667&set=a.53699096666.80512.605431666&type=1&theater)]

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--kYrn7zTZ--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/1857qaput58u3jpg.jpg

[Max R.]

Another article about the differences between urban and rural:


http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/11/red-state-blue-city-how-the-urban-rural-divide-is-splitting-america/265686/
Starting before the Civil War era, America's political dividing lines were drawn along state and regional borders. Cities and the then-extensive rural areas shared a worldview North and South of the Mason-Dixon line. While there was always tension within states, they were bound by a common politics. The city of Charleston, for example, was as rabidly anti-North as some inland plantation areas. Economic engines, ways of life, and moral philosophies changed at the 36th parallel, where the North began.


Today, that divide has vanished. The new political divide is a stark division between cities and what remains of the countryside. Not just some cities and some rural areas, either -- virtually every major city (100,000-plus population) in the United States of America has a different outlook from the less populous areas that are closest to it. The difference is no longer about where people live, it's abouthow people live: in spread-out, open, low-density privacy -- or amid rough-and-tumble, in-your-face population density and diverse communities that enforce a lower-common denominator of tolerance among inhabitants.

The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal. Here, courtesy of Princeton's Robert Vanderbai, is an electoral map (http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/WebGL/Election2012f.html) that captures the divisions:



<figure class="mt-image-center" style="margin: 0px 0px 18px; position: relative; padding: 10px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lyon Text', Georgia, Times, serif; font-size: 18px; line-height: 30.0000610351563px; max-width: 615px;">
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/assets_c/2012/11/Election2012tippedmore-thumb-615x468-106679.jpg (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/Election2012tippedmore.jpg)</figure>The only major cities that voted Republican in the 2012 presidential election were Phoenix, Oklahoma City, Fort Worth, and Salt Lake City. With its dominant Mormon population, Mitt Romney was a lock in the Utah capital; Phoenix nearly voted for Obama. After that, the largest urban centers to tilt Republican included Wichita, Lincoln, Neb., and Boise.

<center class="ebz_native_center ebz_native" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lyon Text', Georgia, Times, serif; font-size: 18px; line-height: 30.0000610351563px; overflow: hidden; height: 394px; margin: auto; width: auto; -webkit-transition-property: height, margin; transition-property: height, margin; -webkit-transition-duration: 1s, 1s; transition-duration: 1s, 1s;">
The gap is so stark that some of America's bluest cities are located in its reddest states. Every one of Texas' major cities -- Austin, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio -- voted Democratic in 2012, the second consecutive presidential election in which they've done so. Other red-state cities that tipped blue include Atlanta, Indianapolis, New Orleans, Birmingham, Tucson, Little Rock, and Charleston, S.C. -- ironically, the site of the first battle of the Civil War. In states like Nevada, the only blue districts are often also the only cities, like Reno and Las Vegas.

</center>Because winning a state's electoral votes requires only a simple majority, a single city can change the entire game. Blue cities in swing states that ended up going for Obama last Tuesday include Las Vegas, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Denver, the cities of Florida, and the cities of Ohio.

Though not generally considered a swing state, Michigan (with 16 electoral votes) was virtually carried by the Detroit metropolitan area, spread across three counties, and a scrap of Flint. Almost the entire rest of the state went different shades of red.

This divide between blue city and red countryside has been growing for some time. Since 1984, more and more of America's major cities have voted blue each year, culminating in 2012, when 27 out of the nation's 30 most populous cities voted Democratic. According to Dave Leip's Atlas of U.S. Presidential Elections (http://uselectionatlas.org/) and The New York Times, the 2012 election marked the fourth time in the last five federal election cycles that voters shifted away from the party of the sitting president. Despite that constant churn, one part of the electoral map has become a crystal clear constant. Cities, year by year, have become drenched in more blue. Everywhere else is that much more red.

Comparing the state-by-state electoral maps between the election of George W. Bush in 2000 and Obama's reelection, there are considerable differences. But if you look instead at the county-by-county map (http://www.americanpast.org/voting/countypopular.html), the picture changes. The same poles -- the coastal megalopolises, industrial Midwest, and Mississippi River and New South cities -- have fortified the base of Democratic support for 20 years. Republicans have consolidated themselves in the Mountain West, prairie heartland, and Bible Belt.

<section id="article-section-3" style="width: 630px; margin: 0px auto; max-width: 630px; padding-right: 330px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Lyon Text', Georgia, Times, serif; font-size: 18px; line-height: 30.0000610351563px;">Between 2000 and 2004 the maps barely seem to change at all. Some counties, for instance, remain the only blue counties in the entire state, year after year. Even comparing 2004 and 2008, many of the most dramatic differences are simply in the margin of victory in various districts. Mushrooming Democratic popularity during the Clinton years and in 2008, while impressive, largely lights up along the periphery of the current Democratic spine.
For years, this continues: Urban and rural counties jostling with a small pool of counties which go back and forth every couple of elections. There's no real realignment, just a constant tug of war as the nation grows further divided.
Electoral cartograms by University of Michigan physics professor Mark Newman (http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/)show the power of Democratic counties based on population density. Spreading each vote out, his illustrations portray the hidden truth of the conventional electoral map, and why the much smaller number of dedicated blue counties is outmatching the more geographically numerous red counties.

<figure class="mt-image-center" style="margin: 0px 0px 18px; position: relative; padding: 10px 0px; max-width: 615px;">
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/assets_c/2012/11/countycartrb512-thumb-615x422-106681.png</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/countycartrb512.png)
</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/countycartrb512.png)</figure><figure class="mt-image-center" style="margin: 0px 0px 18px; position: relative; padding: 10px 0px; max-width: 615px;">
</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/countycartrb512.png)</figure>But this also skirts the point. Cities are significant not just because of their physical locations, but their physical environment. This map of emerging "megaregions" in the U.S. matches up snugly with the blue spots on the electoral map:

<figure class="mt-image-center" style="margin: 0px 0px 18px; position: relative; padding: 10px 0px; max-width: 615px;">
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/assets_c/2012/11/2050_Map_Megaregions2008_150-thumb-615x409-106683.png</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/2050_Map_Megaregions2008_150.png)
</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/2050_Map_Megaregions2008_150.png)</figure><figure class="mt-image-center" style="margin: 0px 0px 18px; position: relative; padding: 10px 0px; max-width: 615px;">
</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/2050_Map_Megaregions2008_150.png)</figure>In due course, these populous bastions of urban liberalism have helped spur state legislation and court rulings to create new laws, such as those permitting same sex marriage, that are often in direct conflict with federal laws and with the majority of fellow state counties (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-CEngOsFLR0I/T6_7Ag_7hnI/AAAAAAAABbA/k2JyRQdqjg0/s1600/prop8cali6.png). These measures are not always controversial -- such as Missouri's 2010 Prop B (http://btoellner.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451f90869e20133f58e0db5970b-pi), regulating dog breeding shows -- but the divisions are often stark: cities vs. everywhere else. Meanwhile, the states with constitutional amendments banning gay marriage are often among the least densely populated in the country, such as South Dakota and Idaho.
On Election Day, voters in 37 states weighed in on 174 ballot measures,according (http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/ballot-measures-2012-homepage.aspx) to the National Conference of State Legislatures, on matters ranging from gambling to marijuana to the death penalty. It was the second-highest number ever, and this cycle also saw a definitive jump in votes on whether to overturn recently passed legislation, including Obamacare (http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/affordable-care-act-on-the-ballot.aspx) and gay marriage (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/07/us/politics/same-sex-marriage-voting-election.html). These state laws are the foundation for potential future federal laws, but the sudden, radical divergence between laws from state to state is leading to a dizzying decentralization, with laws of varying importance in varying directions in varying states checkering the United States. This pre-election graphic (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2012/may/08/gay-rights-united-states)demonstrates the complexity of the legal environment for same-sex unions alone across America:

<figure class="mt-image-center" style="margin: 0px 0px 18px; position: relative; padding: 10px 0px; line-height: 30.0000610351563px; max-width: 615px;">
http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/assets_c/2012/11/lgbtq-state-laws-infographic-thumb-615x586-106686.jpg</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/lgbtq-state-laws-infographic.jpg)
</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/lgbtq-state-laws-infographic.jpg)</figure><figure class="mt-image-center" style="margin: 0px 0px 18px; position: relative; padding: 10px 0px; line-height: 30.0000610351563px; max-width: 615px;">
</picture> (http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/lgbtq-state-laws-infographic.jpg)</figure>After this year's election, roughly half of the 50 states allow the practice of one, more, or all of the following: same-sex marriage, marijuana use or assisted suicide. Voters in Alabama, Missouri, Montana, and Wyoming passed largely symbolic laws that would prohibit Obamacare, effectively another lifestyle law. Meanwhile, all of the states that voted against Obamacare also ban both same-sex marriage and marijuana use. In Montana, the government won't help insure your health, but it will assist you in killing yourself. Many Americans live in states where they are forced to buy health insurance but are not allowed to end their own lives or marry the person they love.
Federalism's dance is America's great helix, and in due course a new national consensus will tend to emerge. But things might get more divided before they get better. Immediately after the election, more than a 100,000 citizens in more than 20 states signed petitions on the White House website (https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/) requesting to secede from the nation.
That has spurred some pundits to worry about a new splintering like the one 150 years ago and to bemoan, as they do each election year, how the country is growing more divided. But the new divisions don't break down neatly enough between states -- as opposed to within them -- to make the idea of any given state pulling out of the union anything more than minority grousing. Robert Forbes, an antebellum history professor at the University of Connecticut, says fears of a divided America are overblown.


"Compared to the United States of 1860," Forbes says, "the America of 2012 is more like the United Colors of Benetton."

</section>

[Gunny]

Texas cities don't necessarily vote Democratic. When the conservatives that have jobs go home, the weasels that don't stay and caucus until midnight. It amounts to nothing more than stealing votes and I totally hate it.

However, Texas has enough counties and is big enough to offset most of the crap. Other states have one or two major cities that control the entire state. I think the whole vote thing is out of whack.

I've lived in rural FL, IL, CA and Texas. Conservative good old boys not over-populating the land and sucking off the government.

[fj1200]

Dumb idea. We need one America with 50 states.

[Gunny]

Dumb idea. We need one America with 50 states.

Nah. A Federalist POV. The South didn't need the North. The North needed the South. That's kinda' how that worked.

[Perianne]

Dumb idea. We need one America with 50 states.

Thanks for your insightful comment.

[fj1200]

Nah. A Federalist POV. The South didn't need the North. The North needed the South. That's kinda' how that worked.

But we are a Federation... or used to be in more than name only. The South needed the North, the North needed the South. Blue needs Red, Red needs Blue. We're all better under free trade and that is the heart of our economic success; free movement of people, free movement of capital, free movement of goods, etc.


Thanks for your insightful comment.

You're welcome. It is the Constitutional view of things.

[Max R.]

But we are a Federation... or used to be in more than name only. The South needed the North, the North needed the South. Blue needs Red, Red needs Blue. We're all better under free trade and that is the heart of our economic success; free movement of people, free movement of capital, free movement of goods, etc.



You're welcome. It is the Constitutional view of things.

Sorry Gunny, but I tend to agree with Fj1200. While the South could be independent of the North, a major reason they lost the war was a lack of industrial capacity. Northern factories supplied a lot of machinery, firearms and such that was lost once hostilities broke out.

Two thoughts here: One, the South had a right to secede prior to the Civil War and President Lincoln was wrong to force secessionists states back into the Union at a cost of killing off 2% of the total population. Two, as events turned out, I'm glad the US remained one nation. I strongly doubt WWI and WWII plus the advent of communism in Europe would have turned out the same for us, the USA, if we hadn't remained a single power.

[aboutime]

Dumb idea. We need one America with 50 states.


Sorry to make anyone choke, or spill their coffee on their keyboard but..It's not a dumb idea. fj is right!

[LongTermGuy]

*Ahhhhhhhh....the hope & Change..."yes we can".. SNIFF...SNIFF...I can smell it!!!......ahh ha!!...One America.....Sounds great!:salute::salute::salute: Wow!....*which Ideology is going to magically change and go along...and embrace with the other side and how?...oh ya...all the `wishin` and Hopin and `dreamin` and talkin.......

:laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbgHM1mI0k#t=10