Huge admission to make - for me

[jimnyc]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?49517-View-Changes

Perianne had asked in that thread about society and political changes one may have had. I had intended on making this thread anyway, and don't want hers ruined, so I'll post here. I was hesitant to post this for a few days, as I know what I'll hear for it, but I'll go forward anyway. I think many of you will be utterly shocked with this.

Transgender folks. That's right, you read correctly.

It's a long story, but the tipping point was watching the Bruce Jenner interview. I don't honestly and fully know how I feel now, but it literally brought a tear to my eye. I felt for him. I believed him. He was very good at explaining things and doesn't want changes from anyone. Diane Sawyer asked him what he would want from the public, and he simply said to have an open mind.

They gave a brief interview with his 89 year old Mom at the end. She said the proudest moment of her life was when Bruce lifted the gold medal in the 1976 olympics, the proudest day of her life. She said she could never be prouder than that day. - until today. And she had a tear in her eye. Seeing his ex-wives explain things, what they knew and such. The whole story from when he was a child, until current times.

All that I believed my entire life, and this was the first person ever to kinda make me believe that he was "born this way".

Now look, this doesn't mean I'll go out and vote in favor of gay marriage, or equal rights for what I think are mostly desires. Just not happening. But I had sympathy for him, empathy. Just a year or 2 ago I was mocking him, thinking it was hilarious and that he should move to an island somewhere.

I don't know what this means for sure. Maybe he just made me feel sad? Guilty?

I want Bruce to be happy, even if I would prefer not to see him in makeup and a dress. I hope his entire family accepts him. I hope the public isn't too brutal with him when he reappears now as a woman.

I guess my thinking is, how can I feel bad for this guy, want him to be happy and successful with this - and be totally against such behavior? Is it because it's an athlete hero from when I was a kid?

Someone make sense of this for me!!!

[Noir]

Literal tears Jim, this post has made me so happy (:

[Kathianne]

I don't watch things like the Jenner story or even read much about them. It's like People Magazine, not going to say I've never read it, but it has to be the only thing in the waiting room for me to pick one up.

With that said, I really don't care what folks do or don't do as long as they keep it in appropriate areas. I don't like 'in my face' that I must accept or condone; otoh, I don't feel compelled to put up roadblocks for others either. I think the increased involvement of federal government into what used to be private, has made more for devisiveness-whether it be on race, sex, religion. It grosses me out to see public displays of affection, beyond hand holding or whatever-but I think that speaks to immaturity or insecurity of the couple, gay or straight.

Don't ask, don't tell was the beginning of the fed intrusion, since then we see more laws and more attacks on and by gays.

I've said before that while I don't think 'all' gays are born that way, some are. My concerns though are more on the level of changes to the society through government intervention.

[fj1200]

Someone make sense of this for me!!!

He was humanized so you can no longer demonize.

[jimnyc]

Literal tears Jim, this post has made me so happy (:

I hate you. One word about the Rangers losing in the last second and you die!! :laugh:


I don't watch things like the Jenner story or even read much about them. It's like People Magazine, not going to say I've never read it, but it has to be the only thing in the waiting room for me to pick one up.

With that said, I really don't care what folks do or don't do as long as they keep it in appropriate areas. I don't like 'in my face' that I must accept or condone; otoh, I don't feel compelled to put up roadblocks for others either. I think the increased involvement of federal government into what used to be private, has made more for devisiveness-whether it be on race, sex, religion. It grosses me out to see public displays of affection, beyond hand holding or whatever-but I think that speaks to immaturity or insecurity of the couple, gay or straight.

Don't ask, don't tell was the beginning of the fed intrusion, since then we see more laws and more attacks on and by gays.

I've said before that while I don't think 'all' gays are born that way, some are. My concerns though are more on the level of changes to the society through government intervention.

Well said. I think that helped, that he's NOT an in your face guy. In fact, he's been going out of his way to hide everything. I dunno if that's better or worse.


He was humanized so you can no longer demonize.

Think that's it? I've even known gay folks over the years that were nice fellas, but I had no sympathy or empathy for them. Would still hold my nose and feel a tad disgusted inside. I hope that never changes! :lol:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?49517-View-Changes

Perianne had asked in that thread about society and political changes one may have had. I had intended on making this thread anyway, and don't want hers ruined, so I'll post here. I was hesitant to post this for a few days, as I know what I'll hear for it, but I'll go forward anyway. I think many of you will be utterly shocked with this.

Transgender folks. That's right, you read correctly.

It's a long story, but the tipping point was watching the Bruce Jenner interview. I don't honestly and fully know how I feel now, but it literally brought a tear to my eye. I felt for him. I believed him. He was very good at explaining things and doesn't want changes from anyone. Diane Sawyer asked him what he would want from the public, and he simply said to have an open mind.

They gave a brief interview with his 89 year old Mom at the end. She said the proudest moment of her life was when Bruce lifted the gold medal in the 1976 olympics, the proudest day of her life. She said she could never be prouder than that day. - until today. And she had a tear in her eye. Seeing his ex-wives explain things, what they knew and such. The whole story from when he was a child, until current times.

All that I believed my entire life, and this was the first person ever to kinda make me believe that he was "born this way".

Now look, this doesn't mean I'll go out and vote in favor of gay marriage, or equal rights for what I think are mostly desires. Just not happening. But I had sympathy for him, empathy. Just a year or 2 ago I was mocking him, thinking it was hilarious and that he should move to an island somewhere.

I don't know what this means for sure. Maybe he just made me feel sad? Guilty?

I want Bruce to be happy, even if I would prefer not to see him in makeup and a dress. I hope his entire family accepts him. I hope the public isn't too brutal with him when he reappears now as a woman.

I guess my thinking is, how can I feel bad for this guy, want him to be happy and successful with this - and be totally against such behavior? Is it because it's an athlete hero from when I was a kid?

Someone make sense of this for me!!!

Methinks you had a moment of empathy and massive compassion for a fellow human being. Now do not let that weakness lead you to start wearing dresses and joining up with good ole Miss Bruce.;)
I see it this way, the person is lost and in that blindness he cries out for understanding and compassion--nothing wrong with giving both IMHO.
Just do not go overboard and start liking twinkies over that of Mom's apple pie..
By the way, this is not criticism of you having such compassion. Myself, I just feel truly sorry for the poor delusional guy!
Walking in abject darkness and grabbing the first path with a glowing light at the end of it . Too bad that the light is a campfire at the first gate of hell IMHO. -Tyr

[indago]

Jenner, and others alike, should be examined by a HypnoTherapist to determine why they think that way, when it is quite obvious that they are masquerading, pretending to be something that they are not. Maybe a HypnoTherapist, probing deep into their subconscious, can find something in their past, or past life, that would be the key to why they are thinking the way they do. And then, work on changing their thinking to go along with who and what they really are.

[jimnyc]

Methinks you had a moment of empathy and massive compassion for a fellow human being. Now do not let that weakness lead you to start wearing dresses and joining up with good ole Miss Bruce.;)
I see it this way, the person is lost and in that blindness he cries out for understanding and compassion--nothing wrong with giving both IMHO.
Just do not go overboard and start liking twinkies over that of Mom's apple pie..
By the way, this is not criticism of you having such compassion. Myself, I just feel truly sorry for the poor delusional guy!
Walking in abject darkness and grabbing the first path with a glowing light at the end of it . Too bad that the light is a campfire at the first gate of hell IMHO. -Tyr

That's my general thought, that a lot of these folks simply gave in to lustful desires. But hell, who in the hell would want to purposely give up on wives, give up on sex and all, just so he/she can feel happy inside? Hell, I'd take sex forever and be a miserable bastard!! :)

But for me - no dresses, and while I like Twinkies (as my fat belly can attest), I'll NEVER like twinkies like that. My bat ONLY swings one way.

Maybe he's used to acting and being on TV, and I just watched and felt for him? I wonder how I would have felt if it was a no name guy?

[jimnyc]

Jenner, and others alike, should be examined by a HypnoTherapist to determine why they think that way, when it is quite obvious that they are masquerading, pretending to be something that they are not. Maybe a HypnoTherapist, probing deep into their subconscious, can find something in their past, or past life, that would be the key to why they are thinking the way they do. And then, work on changing their thinking to go along with who and what they really are.

I don't know about a hypnotherapist, but apparently he's been seeing doctors since the 80's at the very least. And I don't think they will let you start taking the hormones and other crap unless you see an expert in the field and that person gives a prescription or written recommendation.

Then again, what do they know? My wacko doctor tells me all kinds of things - and none with a blood test, DNA test - or really any tests at all. Simply talking and taking a stab in the dark is the way I see it. But I also don't have a weird desire for lipstick and dresses - that kinda narrows down the issues a little! :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I don't know about a hypnotherapist, but apparently he's been seeing doctors since the 80's at the very least. And I don't think they will let you start taking the hormones and other crap unless you see an expert in the field and that person gives a prescription or written recommendation.

Then again, what do they know? My wacko doctor tells me all kinds of things - and none with a blood test, DNA test - or really any tests at all. Simply talking and taking a stab in the dark is the way I see it. But I also don't have a weird desire for lipstick and dresses - that kinda narrows down the issues a little! :laugh:



But I also don't have a weird desire for lipstick and dresses - that kinda narrows down the issues a little!

Whew, sure relieves me and Jeff to see you at least admit that part! ;)

Just let us know if you start craving in cute purses in storeroom display windows, will ya?- ;)-Tyr

[jimnyc]

Whew, sure relieves me and Jeff to see you at least admit that part! ;)

Just let us know if you start craving in cute purses in storeroom display windows, will ya?- ;)-Tyr

I'm a pervert, no doubt, but all women!! And I don't think I have any of that weird shit in me. The only thing I like in store windows is puppies and kittens!!

And don't let Jeff fool you, he's the one who is certifiable! :laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm a pervert, no doubt, but all women!! And I don't think I have any of that weird shit in me. The only thing I like in store windows is puppies and kittens!!

And don't let Jeff fool you, he's the one who is certifiable! :laugh:



And don't let Jeff fool you, he's the one who is certifiable!


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ AHHHHHH, exactly what Jeff said about you!
And he thinks Bruce is as nutty as a damn fruitcake... ;)

The say, confession is good for the soul my friend.
Your secrets are safe with me! - :laugh:
SSHH, DON'T TELL ANYBODY ELSE..
PM me with your other fetishes and ye 'ole doctor Robert gots da CURE MY FRIEND!--Tyr

[jimnyc]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ AHHHHHH, exactly what Jeff said about you!
And he thinks Bruce is as nutty as a damn fruitcake... ;)

The say, confession is good for the soul my friend.
Your secrets are safe with me! - :laugh:
SSHH, DON'T TELL ANYBODY ELSE..
PM me with your other fetishes and ye 'ole doctor Robert gots da CURE MY FRIEND!--Tyr

I already told EVERYONE my fetish - boobies! And I make no secret about that one. Well, maybe not a fetish, but rather an obsession. :) And even if there were a cure, I want NO part of it, thank you very much. :salute:

[tailfins]

When there's a job to be done, I get the same way myself. You're either working or you're doing and thinking about something else.

[jimnyc]

When there's a job to be done, I get the same way myself. You're either working or you're doing and thinking about something else.

WTF? I'm lost with this one. Clarify!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I already told EVERYONE my fetish - boobies! And I make no secret about that one. Well, maybe not a fetish, but rather an obsession. :) And even if there were a cure, I want NO part of it, thank you very much. :salute:

Just yanking your chain a bit this fine morn my good friend...
And had a blast doing so... ;)
Trust me, as a fellow boobies fan I know, I know very well... --Tyr

[jimnyc]

Just yanking your chain a bit this fine morn my good friend...
And had a blast doing so... ;)
Trust me, as a fellow boobies fan I know, I know very well... --Tyr

Pssssst.... truth be told, I like it all, but a man can only publicly state and ask to see certain things.

[Abbey Marie]

I didn't see the interview, but compassion for others is always a good thing.

Just don't get upset when his doctor cuts it off... :eek:

[jimnyc]

I didn't see the interview, but compassion for others is always a good thing.

Just don't get upset when his doctor cuts it off... :eek:

Hell, he's voluntarily doing it, I don't feel bad that he's losing it. All I know is that mine is NEVER EVER going anywhere. Well, at least not off of my body. :)

[Abbey Marie]

Hell, he's voluntarily doing it, I don't feel bad that he's losing it. All I know is that mine is NEVER EVER going anywhere. Well, at least not off of my body. :)

He could have saved a ton of money by marrying Lorena Bobbit.

[tailfins]

WTF? I'm lost with this one. Clarify!

That means that opinions are an interesting thing until there's work to be done. I noticed that it drives people nuts that I don't pay much attention if for example the Database Administrator is named Ahmed or Bubba or even someone with tits named Chaz. If your indexes suck and your field restrictions make your tables unworkable, I don't want you anywhere near my project. Competence is essentially all that matters. Concealed incompetence is even worse. If someone makes needed tables invisible to hide their gal-pal's incompetence, if I can I will escalate it in the hopes that the perpetrator gets fired.

[LongTermGuy]

I don't watch things like the Jenner story or even read much about them. It's like People Magazine, not going to say I've never read it, but it has to be the only thing in the waiting room for me to pick one up.

With that said, I really don't care what folks do or don't do as long as they keep it in appropriate areas. I don't like 'in my face' that I must accept or condone; otoh, I don't feel compelled to put up roadblocks for others either. I think the increased involvement of federal government into what used to be private, has made more for devisiveness-whether it be on race, sex, religion. It grosses me out to see public displays of affection, beyond hand holding or whatever-but I think that speaks to immaturity or insecurity of the couple, gay or straight.

Don't ask, don't tell was the beginning of the fed intrusion, since then we see more laws and more attacks on and by gays.

I've said before that while I don't think 'all' gays are born that way, some are. My concerns though are more on the level of changes to the society through government intervention.

:clap:

[fj1200]

Think that's it? I've even known gay folks over the years that were nice fellas, but I had no sympathy or empathy for them. Would still hold my nose and feel a tad disgusted inside. I hope that never changes! :lol:

To some extent. There are plenty who are anti-gay, for example, and don't want them anywhere around which means that they won't change their opinion.

But to your gay stance; I'm not sure of the moral difference here.

[jimnyc]

To some extent. There are plenty who are anti-gay, for example, and don't want them anywhere around which means that they won't change their opinion.

But to your gay stance; I'm not sure of the moral difference here.

Me neither. It's just odd when I feel like one of my stances, one of my feelings on a subject, has started to shift. I'm a stubborn bastard, I don't like change. I don't think I'll feel the same the next time I see an obvious looking man dressed as a woman next, but I may have more understanding about the situation. I don't know.

But I know I'm man enough to admit I moved at all - and on this one no less! Since I know I'll never hear the end of it...

I watched the show partly out of curiosity, and partly because I am weird about watching celebrity crap. I don't watch any of the shows... my Mom got me started when I was like 16 or so, SHE was the weirdo addicted to bringing home the "National Enquirer" "Star" "Examiner" and other 'rags' as she would call them. It was interesting to see how the celebs dressed, lived, drove. And the drama was a bonus! So I read them for years. Then it was easier when the internet came around. I have a handful of celebrity sites I like to go read, so I can wish all kinds of bad things on those people that live better than me. LOL

[LongTermGuy]

I already told EVERYONE my fetish - boobies! And I make no secret about that one. Well, maybe not a fetish, but rather an obsession. :) And even if there were a cure, I want NO part of it, thank you very much. :salute:


".......You know, there was a time when, if someone told you to
do somethin', you did it. Bam! Right on! No questions asked.
It was "Yes, sir" and "Yes, mam". You never said no. You know? Huh.
But, you know, things are changing nowadays.

It's a new day,
baby!..... Folks want to take their own lives into their hands and
make their own choices. No longer do they wanna go along with
the program 'cause everybody say it's right. You know what I mean?
Let me tell ya what I'm talkin' about, ya see, 'cause...

I don't want no gold watch for workin' fifty years from nine till five
A-while the boss is guzzling champagne and I'm beltin' beer in some dive

`......'Cause I want to be happy and free
Livin' and loving for me
I want to be happy and free
Livin' and lovin' for me
*Like a natural man (like a natural man)"

Just my take....:thumb:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gck1eSScRjc

[jimnyc]

Changes, time's makin' changes in my life
Rearrangin', can't seem to stop the hands of time
I remember, I was so young, I was much too young to see
Now I'm older, growing older, and I see things differently
Oh can't you see, it's changin' you and me

Time's makin' changes, time's makin' changes in my life
Time's rearrangin', changin' you and me

Faces, strange faces cloud my mind
Empty traces, make it hard for me to find
Somewhere in the distance, is there someone who awaits
For that moment I am taken over by the hands of fate
Can't you see, the world is changin' me

Nothin' ever stays the same, it's always gonna change
I'm on my way, yeah yeah

Changes, time's makin' changes in my life
Rearrangin', always changin', can't seem to stop the hands of time
Can't you see, it's changin' everything


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiEVHPk6yys

[hjmick]

Maturity.

And perhaps a little wisdom...

[LongTermGuy]

<tbody style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">
`......love is destiny not faith... and you are forever not timeless.








</tbody>

[DragonStryk72]

I hate you. One word about the Rangers losing in the last second and you die!! :laugh:



Well said. I think that helped, that he's NOT an in your face guy. In fact, he's been going out of his way to hide everything. I dunno if that's better or worse.



Think that's it? I've even known gay folks over the years that were nice fellas, but I had no sympathy or empathy for them. Would still hold my nose and feel a tad disgusted inside. I hope that never changes! :lol:

This is what I ran into my dad. He didn't go around limp wristing it all of sudden, his voice didn't suddenly rise three octaves, his wardrobe didn't change. He still mostly wore his bomber jacket, yankees ballcap, plaid shirt, and jeans. He was still just my dad, but happier with himself, and everyone around him.

In a way, it shaped a number of fights myself and my dad had when I started into catholic school. I was having a lot of difficulties in school with the theological end of things, because, well, I read a lot, and if I've gotta be in a class about the Bible, I might as well read the bloody thing. I started to sort of veer off the direction of those teaching the bible, as I found my own lessons.

How this started a number of fights, is that I came to this concept that the most central tenant of Christ is Acceptance. Christ spent much of his time with sinners, talked about how everyone was a sinner, that to err was human, and forgiveness but to be asked for. This meant I became the sort pack leader for the misfits, and this included several friends who were gay or at least bi-curious.

Well, dad, in order to be the uber-catholic to keep the demons at bay, took issue with these friends, and the battle began. Sometimes it was a fight, sometimes it sort of felt like he was giving some sort of odd pop quiz with clue about the grading, and now I realize that this absolute sense of faith I had was sort of both terrifying to him, something that he needed me to walk away from, and at the same time, something he very much wanted to accept as truth, and there was just no shaking me from it.

I saw almost every moment of his struggle to be what everyone expected him to be for more than 2 decades, and for that to finally fail, and for him to have to accept who he really is, to admit to himself, and to everyone else around him.

Weirdly, I ended up being the last one he told, and some of this was simple guilt. Years of battling me, and he basically had to tell me that he was the type of person he'd tried to get me to abandon. I didn't really so much care about that, I was most concerned that he'd led up to telling me like I was about to find out he had inoperable cancer or something.

Those guys who come out of the closet, and suddenly, they all act like the biggest gay stereotype ever... that's not what being gay, what being transgendered is. But just like my dad tried to be the greatest catholic ever, so too do a lot of gay men and lesbians throw themselves into being the "best" homosexual they can be, trying to emulate, rather than to find their own identity, and embrace it.

[Noir]

And just like that, Bruce became Caitlyn.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7265&stc=1

Its been an oddly refreshing day on my social networks, with almost all the posts i've have seen referring to her with the proper pronouns and name. Which was especially surprising in coming from some of the older posters... it occurred to me that Jims comments may be representative of a wider feeling, Bruce was respected by many, and that respect has carried though the transition to Caitlyn.

I'm not saying theirs been a paradigm shift, but somethings not the same as it was, will be interesting to see if this is an exception, or a newfound rule of acceptance.

[Jeff]

Dang, First off just as the Kardashins I see Bruce looking for attention, if he wanted to be a woman go ahead and do it without the 3 ring circus.

Second Jim you are no different than you ever where, a guy gave a great story and you feel for it, personally I wouldn't listen or read the trash, because honestly I probably would of felt bad for him, so I just toon the entire thing out.

But with that said I also believe if that is what HE wishes to do than that is his choice, just don't shove it in my face, no they aren't born that way and even if they are it isn't right, heck if a murderer is born wanting to kill it doesn't make it ok.

[aboutime]

Bottom line for me in any kind of distorted lifestyle, for anyone is.."None of my business!"

More of us should spend more time MINDING OUR OWN BUSINESS. There would be less argument then!

[grannyhawkins]

My take................ It seems ta me, to be an awful lotta publicity, for a private person, that's not lookin to make a statement. It seems ta be a full on Hollywood an MSM assault of forced acceptance!!!

It's pretty hard in the 21st century, ta raise a family and children properly these days and bruce, hollywood, the kardashins an MSM has done none of us any favors, with this forced acceptance of what's clearly a mental illness!!!

Do yur own thang, but by Gawd, have a little pride, decency an respect for yourself and others, by bein a little more subtle.

[jimnyc]

My take................ It seems ta me, to be an awful lotta publicity, for a private person, that's not lookin to make a statement. It seems ta be a full on Hollywood an MSM assault of forced acceptance!!!

It's pretty hard in the 21st century, ta raise a family and children properly these days and bruce, hollywood, the kardashins an MSM has done none of us any favors, with this forced acceptance of what's clearly a mental illness!!!

Do yur own thang, but by Gawd, have a little pride, decency an respect for yourself and others, by bein a little more subtle.

I just read another story about his upcoming "docu-series". His 2 elder sons refuse to be involved. It's not because they disapprove of their Dad, but because the TV station is already talking about next year. They're afraid this is going to go from what Bruce made 'acceptable' on his interview, into a spectacle along the lines of Keeping up with the Kardashians. I think he should drop it now and live his life, but I don't see that happening. He'll be doing a special appearance at the Espy awards for ESPN next month, accepting a "courage award" for coming out. I don't see anything wrong in general with such, but I do see this slowly turning into a spectacle, and one that has $$$ involved. I don't think making this such a spectacle is ultimately going to be good for the transgender community.