Fear

[Perianne]

Are you afraid of people who do not look like you?

My daughter and I once went to Cincinnati to watch a Reds' game. We had to park far away. On the way back, it was dark and there were lots of black people around. I admit I was afraid. I am probably a racist.

[darin]

Are you 15? Thats a childish (liberal) mindset.

[hjmick]

Not one iota. Even when I'm in North Charleston...

[LongTermGuy]

`Not at all...I do get concerned if people might seem a little cautious around me though .....usually I mind my own business and stay to myself and at times will nod the head and smile`

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

`Not at all...I do get concerned if people might seem a little cautious around me though .....usually I mind my own business and stay to myself and at times will nod the head and smile`

Fear can be a healthy reaction , survival often depends on fear to alert us of danger. Sometimes its even intuitive fear that saves us.
However , I have spent most my life eliminating most fear from it. I fear now only for others , very , very rarely for myself.
I am not eager to die but if I must obey my core principles or else run away because of fear-- the principles win ever time.
Truly damn lucky to have not bit the bullet long ago...
Or else a very powerful guardian angel was watching over me..... why I have no clue..-Tyr

[LongTermGuy]

Fear can be a healthy reaction , survival often depends on fear to alert us of danger. Sometimes its even intuitive fear that saves us.
However , I have spent most my life eliminately most fear from it. I fear now only for others , very , very rarely for myself.
I am not eager to die but if I must obey my core principles or else run away because of fear-- the principles win ever time.
Truly damn lucky to have not bit the bullet long ago...
Or else a very powerful guardian angel was watching over me..... why I have no clue..-Tyr

`aint that a fact brother...I would rather use the words...cautious...aware....focus...alert..more so than fear....fear just gets in the way when one must take action if they want to live....at some point many men have been tested so many times that they usually able to control `natural` Earth based fear...

[Perianne]

Are you 15? Thats a childish (liberal) mindset.

Why do you say this?

[LongTermGuy]

Why do you say this?


Your avatar looks young...:thumb:

[Jeff]

When I first met my wife she would lock the doors in her car when she drove through a bad area of town and yes it usually was a black and Mexican area, basically what I would call downtown. I wouldn't consider that being racist I call it being safe, when traveling through a bad section of town a woman should protect herself. Now on the other hand when we first met she asked me to lock my door :laugh: that will be the day I am going to lock my doors because of some punks.

But I am happy to say after 15 years of being with me, the ol lady has learned how to protect herself quite well, of course I won't allow her to put herself in a dangerous situation either ( I will ride with her if she is having to go into a bad area ) She managed apartments ( more like the projects ) in Athens GA one summer and yes it was 99% black, she had all kinds of threats ( blows my mind how people get upset when they get thrown out when they don't pay the rent ) But I would show up and for a week after the residents would come in asking her who the guy with the Tattoos was :laugh: I would ride the bike in and then she would be questioned for a week about who I ride with. But seriously if she had to go in at night for a emergency I would go with her, there was a lot of folks there that had night jobs :eek:

[Drummond]

Are you afraid of people who do not look like you?

My daughter and I once went to Cincinnati to watch a Reds' game. We had to park far away. On the way back, it was dark and there were lots of black people around. I admit I was afraid. I am probably a racist.

As Tyr says, fear is a healthy reaction. And in my humble opinion, it's only natural for human beings to instinctively react with fear when faced with people, or scenarios, which you don't immediately and comfortably identify with.

What matters, surely, is what you do with that fear. Do you let it rule you ? Do you let it define how you relate to the world ?

My experiences, especially my more recent ones of London suburbs, would leave me permanently 'in a state of fear', if fear was my dominant reaction to people who didn't look, or act, like me !! After all, London suburbs - these days - are overrun with ethnic so-called 'minorities' ... where you can easily board a bus and hear not one word of English being spoken amongst some highly vocal groups of travellers.

You have to rise above it all, and do something that the English, in modern-day Britain, aren't very accustomed to doing. Namely, be supremely confident in your own sense of self-worth, your own identity, your knowledge of what makes you, YOU ... and proceed wherever that takes you.

It's something that our Left hate to see .. self-assured individualism. Which in itself makes it a VERY good thing to do .....

[tailfins]

Are you afraid of people who do not look like you?

My daughter and I once went to Cincinnati to watch a Reds' game. We had to park far away. On the way back, it was dark and there were lots of black people around. I admit I was afraid. I am probably a racist.

I can't afford to be. My entire workday involves working with people with thick accents. I am however ANNOYED with people that have a different work culture than I. For example, people from authoritarian work cultures will do EXACTLY what the boss says. If they are told for example "write code for a tab to handle claims", you'll get a tab with one selection available. They won't make something reusable for other likely selections on the tab strip. Also Anglo women like to bury and hide errors to protect their "gal-pals".

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

`aint that a fact brother...I would rather use the words...cautious...aware....focus...alert..more so than fear....fear just gets in the way when one must take action if they want to live....at some point many men have been tested so many times that they usually able to control `natural` Earth based fear...
Hell, I was tested a great many times before my 20th birthday. After that lost count, no longer cared to even count.. You see I dealt with a lot of people that did not care if they killed you in a fight. As they did anything to win it..
And more than a few that came with the intent to kill me when we fought..
Wasn't life fun when we were young and full of piss and vinegar?----:laugh:
That is, fun if ya survived it...
I had many friends that never reached 30!! --Tyr

[red state]

Why do you say this?

Because only liberals FEAR being politically correct or worry if they are racist when safety or common sense is involved. The quest to ask is ANYTHING but 'am i a racist'. There are a gang of school boys (no need to describe them further) that head to a local gas station in Memphis after school is out. Almost daily, they harass those pumping gas. Is it racist to NOT use that gas station in a bad part of town? No....it is MATURE and WISE. If you were in a strange town in a strange area and saw what you saw, it would have been wise to go back, ask for a security guard to assist you to your car or something other than continue to a dark, remote part of the parking lot AFTER the game, with the obvious potential of danger. What if that group had been the same group in the video that LongTermGuy put up Sunday or so? They have sworn to kill white babies, rape the women and enslave EVERYONE who is not like them. They ARE out there and we all should be more aware of danger...especially these days.

[tailfins]

Because only liberals FEAR being politically correct or worry if they are racist when safety or common sense is involved. The quest to ask is ANYTHING but 'am i a racist'. There are a gang of school boys (no need to describe them further) that head to a local gas station in Memphis after school is out. Almost daily, they harass those pumping gas. Is it racist to NOT use that gas station in a bad part of town? No....it is MATURE and WISE. If you were in a strange town in a strange area and saw what you saw, it would have been wise to go back, ask for a security guard to assist you to your car or something other than continue to a dark, remote part of the parking lot AFTER the game, with the obvious potential of danger. What if that group had been the same group in the video that LongTermGuy put up Sunday or so? They have sworn to kill white babies, rape the women and enslave EVERYONE who is not like them. They ARE out there and we all should be more aware of danger...especially these days.

I guess that means you won't be visiting Graceland anytime soon.

[fj1200]

It's something that our Left hate to see .. self-assured individualism. Which in itself makes it a VERY good thing to do .....


As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

:dunno:

[fj1200]

I admit I was afraid. I am probably a racist.

Actually I think this is the more problematic statement.


Just imagine, for one second, the world without white people. It would be a sewer.

[Kathianne]

Actually I think this is the more problematic statement.

She's certainly not alone, though some do get rejected:

http://vaviper.blogspot.com/2015/04/heres-bit-of-americana-for-you-1920s.html




Click here to embiggen (http://www.rareamericana.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/3725135a-min.jpg).



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[tailfins]

She's certainly not alone, though some do get rejected:

http://vaviper.blogspot.com/2015/04/heres-bit-of-americana-for-you-1920s.html

All this kind of imflammatory attitude accomplishes is fake tolerance. As Dale Carnegie said: "A man convinced against his will Is of the same opinion still." Most prejudice is rooted in a real risk. Address the risk the person is concerned about and you'll address the prejudice. Your reply implies that you don't care at all about Perianne's safety.

[red state]

Tailfins, I am through with Memphis and have stated this many times. My wife's nephew, who was a Memphis cop, has even left Memphis. In fact, there are many job openings for Memphis cops because everyone else is recruiting our cops. I can't blame them and I most certainly can't blame the nephew......he is now in one of my favorite parts of the Nation (MELBOURNE BEACH FLORIDA). I prefer the Smoky Mountains because will probably remain safe....FLORIDA, is more liberal, has elements that has proven to create SEWER societies as Memphis has become with its current leadership.

To another poster: Research all the gov. or leadership here in the STATES as well as all around the world and get back to me on which ones are SEWERS and what the common denominator is for them being a SEWERs.....

Gotta give myself at least three on that one. :clap::clap::clap:....and maybe a small :beer:


Facts such as what element makes up MOST of the prison population doesn't lie. The smallest percentage of societies make up the largest percentage in prison. Another question is in which religion makes up a smaller percentage in the world....HHHHhhhhmmmmmm more food for thought (unless you are a liberal).

That one earned at least five :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Kathianne]

All this kind of imflammatory attitude accomplishes is fake tolerance. As Dale Carnegie said: "A man convinced against his will Is of the same opinion still." Most prejudice is rooted in a real risk. Address the risk the person is concerned about and you'll address the prejudice. Your reply implies that you don't care at all about Perianne's safety.

Nonsense, besides I was 'just kidding.' See the smilie? :laugh2:

Fear can keep one safe, when it's based upon a situation one is not prepared for. Too many here seem to seek out situations-real or metaphoric that form a base in their preconceptions or prejudices if you will. I've never seen so many examples of 'fighting til my last breath or drop of blood' for protection of others, while posting anecdotal 'news stories' on their personal boogeymen or women. :laugh: See another smilie.

[Drummond]

Curiously, from post #15...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?49278-Fear&p=730726#post730726


As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.

Perfect !

I invite anyone to consider this in any more depth than total superficiality. The result is highly revealing.



All individuals are sovereign over their own lives.
No one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others


.. OK, then ...

All individuals are sovereign over their own lives. Literally translated into the real world .. nobody else, and nothing, has authority over you. Result -- TOTAL CHAOS.

It defies the concept of society. Doesn't it ? Where is law and order, in such a model ? Where is accountability ? Guidance from others ? Indeed, it seems to me that it also defies nationhood. Where would pride in country, or one's nationality, fit into this ?

A criminal would fully identify with this 'value'. Criminals would be delighted not to be accountable to anyone in society. Goodbye, decent values. Hello, doing what YOU want in life, to the exclusion of others. Burglary ? Bank robbing ? Cybercrime ? Such criminals indulging in such things, believing they should be 'sovereign over their own lives', reject accountability to society, to their victims.

Conservatism believes in the opposite. We believe in law and order. We want order from chaos. We want decency.

No one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others. When you say NO ONE, I assume you mean just that ?

OK - try applying that to Pol Pot. Or Stalin, or Hitler. None of these individuals believed in sacrificing their values for the benefit of others, did they ?

Did that make them good Libertarians ?? Seems to me that it SHOULD !! Because it didn't make them 'good Conservatives' !! Yet, apply that yardstick to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, AND YOU FIND THAT IT FITS.

I say again: Libertarianism is a PERVERSION of individualism, and a highly harmful one. As a Conservative, I oppose it.

If YOU were genuinely Conservative, FJ, then so should you.

But of course, you'd much rather not. Eh, FJ .. ??

[Kathianne]

Libertarianism isn't about living in a Hobbesian state of nature. Far from it. In actuality it's closer to the way government was run by the Constitution prior to the Civil War, (but with the abolishment of slavery.) Government should be as non-intrusive as possible, led by the bottom up, i.e. local to federal, not inverse.

The federal government should be alive with checks and balances and it should be extremely difficult for to get much done. LOL! That isn't happening now, it's a given that bills are too big to read and certainly passed before one could hope to do so.

The federal government should have the powers to do what they can do that the states cannot: make war, print money, etc. It's spelled out in the Constitution if one checks.

Both the federalists and anti-federalists recognized that both the federal government in general, the executive in particular would find expanded powers in war. Thus the demarcation of the Civil War.

[tailfins]

Nonsense, besides I was 'just kidding.' See the smilie? :laugh2:

Fear can keep one safe, when it's based upon a situation one is not prepared for. Too many here seem to seek out situations-real or metaphoric that form a base in their preconceptions or prejudices if you will. I've never seen so many examples of 'fighting til my last breath or drop of blood' for protection of others, while posting anecdotal 'news stories' on their personal boogeymen or women. :laugh: See another smilie.

Even in jest, it still illustrates the dynamics of comparing someone with the Klan. Limbaugh cites numerous occasions of saying something in jest turning out to reveal a valid assertion.

[Kathianne]

Even in jest, it still illustrates the dynamics of comparing someone with the Klan. Limbaugh cites numerous occasions of saying something in jest turning out to reveal a valid assertion.
Thank you for that. :laugh:

[Drummond]

Libertarianism isn't about living in a Hobbesian state of nature. Far from it. In actuality it's closer to the way government was run by the Constitution prior to the Civil War, (but with the abolishment of slavery.) Government should be as non-intrusive as possible, led by the bottom up, i.e. local to federal, not inverse.

The federal government should be alive with checks and balances and it should be extremely difficult for to get much done. LOL! That isn't happening now, it's a given that bills are too big to read and certainly passed before one could hope to do so.

The federal government should have the powers to do what they can do that the states cannot: make war, print money, etc. It's spelled out in the Constitution if one checks.

Both the federalists and anti-federalists recognized that both the federal government in general, the executive in particular would find expanded powers in war. Thus the demarcation of the Civil War.

Now, THIS, I don't have any particular problem with. It's a societal way of preserving individualistic rights and values.

But Libertarianism, taken literally, is a nonsense. It can only lead to chaos and lends itself towards an excuse for anarchy. Which is something that certain brands of Left-winger would thrive on.

Since I equate Conservatism with strong law and order, I cannot possibly see Libertarianism as Conservative in nature.

[Kathianne]

Now, THIS, I don't have any particular problem with. It's a societal way of preserving individualistic rights and values.

But Libertarianism, taken literally, is a nonsense. It can only lead to chaos and lends itself towards an excuse for anarchy. Which is something that certain brands of Left-winger would thrive on.

Since I equate Conservatism with strong law and order, I cannot possibly see Libertarianism as Conservative in nature.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it seems you are saying that your take on libertarianism is reason to discount it, regardless of those who subscribe to some aspects of it being more conservative than the current crop of conservatives.

What seems to me to turn off current self-described conservatives to libertarianism is the core difference that we are all free to make our own choices and live with the consequences, including those with other beliefs or of backgrounds different than our own.

The Golden Rule seems pretty evident in most libertarians I am familiar with, Ron Paul being the most well known exception.

[Perianne]

:laugh2:, says the black Hitler.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Your reply implies that you don't care at all about Perianne's safety.

Given the same situation , no way would I want my wife or daughter walking to their car without an escort!
And I have no respect for any man that would say to their wife, suck it up and stop being afraid--walk on to the car..
I have an ironclad rule, my wife and son are not to ever go by themselves into bad areas..
DEAD ID DEAD, there are not any damn overs!
Regret is a monster that lives to rip souls apart. -Tyr

[Kathianne]

:laugh2:, says the black Hitler.

Perianne, I've little doubt that I'd find you a nice person in real life. I admire your dedication to a very difficult profession. I gather we are pretty close to the same ages and undoubtedly have many things in common. Were we to meet in person, I doubt you'd introduce yourself as 'happy to be white,' right after giving your name.

Likewise in person, I doubt that I'd pull out a KKK application, though if you did say something to the above, I don't doubt we'd have an interesting conversation.

As for your Hitler aside, it's your admitted interest in eugenics and separation of the races, not mine.

BTW, I'm in no way an apologists for Blacks or Asians or Whites or Muslims Christians or Wiccans or women, etc. that behave badly. I just don't believe in condemning all based on the bad actors.

[Perianne]

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it seems you are saying that your take on libertarianism is reason to discount it, regardless of those who subscribe to some aspects of it being more conservative than the current crop of conservatives.

What seems to me to turn off current self-described conservatives to libertarianism is the core difference that we are all free to make our own choices and live with the consequences, including those with other beliefs or of backgrounds different than our own.

The Golden Rule seems pretty evident in most libertarians I am familiar with, Ron Paul being the most well known exception.

If some politician would swear THAT to be the case, I would vote for him/her.

I, of course, come at things from a medical perspective, since that has been my career. So, as not to derail this thread, I will ask additional Libertarian questions in the Libertarian thread.

[Kathianne]

If some politician would swear THAT to be the case, I would vote for him/her.

I, of course, come at things from a medical perspective, since that has been my career. So, as not to derail this thread, I will ask additional Libertarian questions in the Libertarian thread.

I have yet to find a 'Libertarian' candidate I could vote for. That sadly is the truth. There may be some at the local level, but I've not lived in AZ long enough to know.

Indeed, that is why I refer to myself as a libertarian leaning conservative. I find in general that the GOP is 'conservative' in the manner that Drummond addressed in this thread or another. It's about power and control, just different interest groups of elites making more laws on us drones. It's not what was in mind by the founders, but what was feared.

[red state]

LIBERAL-TARIAN.....LIBERTARIAN......LIBERAL. Its about the same to me. I once considered Libertarian but there are simply too many nuts in that group of "thinkers". Jesse The Potty Ventura, Nut paul and many dope smokers. I believe it was said that our founders were very much in line with what REAL libertarians believe but REAL libertarians and liberals disguising themselves as libertarian simply doesn't cut the mustard. I'm not happy with the bunch the Republicans are, yet again, throwing at us but at least they aren't a Dr. NUT who would probably be in line with B.O. over the Iran issue or a Mittens who was/is in line with B.O. on Control Care.

Back to the purpose of the thread; being observant isn't racist and when you study the actions of a certain group and MOST of them are evil (as with muSLUM sewers) I believe you are able to get a darn good picture as to what to beware (NOT FEAR). Same applies to any given groups.....all you have to do is observe (AND PLAY IT SMART). That was not smart going to your car despite the obvious 'possibility' of something bad happening.

The more liberal among us can take that gamble to prove that they aren't racist but I'll proudly wear the racist card on my jacket before allowing danger to befall my loved ones. Liberals/Liberal-tarians....

[red state]

I have yet to find a 'Libertarian' candidate I could vote for. That sadly is the truth. There may be some at the local level, but I've not lived in AZ long enough to know.

Indeed, that is why I refer to myself as a libertarian leaning conservative. I find in general that the GOP is 'conservative' in the manner that Drummond addressed in this thread or another. It's about power and control, just different interest groups of elites making more laws on us drones. It's not what was in mind by the founders, but what was feared.


I correctly call them RHINOS (not Conservatives).

[Kathianne]

LIBERAL-TARIAN.....LIBERTARIAN......LIBERAL. Its about the same to me. I once considered Libertarian but there are simply too many nuts in that group of "thinkers". Jesse The Potty Ventura, Nut paul and many dope smokers. I believe it was said that our founders were very much in line with what REAL libertarians believe but REAL libertarians and liberals disguising themselves as libertarian simply doesn't cut the mustard. I'm not happy with the bunch the Republicans are, yet again, throwing at us but at least they aren't a Dr. NUT who would probably be in line with B.O. over the Iran issue or a Mittens who was/is in line with B.O. on Control Care.

Back to the purpose of the thread; being observant isn't racist and when you study the actions of a certain group and MOST of them are evil (as with muSLUM sewers) I believe you are able to get a darn good picture as to what to beware (NOT FEAR). Same applies to any given groups.....all you have to do is observe (AND PLAY IT SMART). That was not smart going to your car despite the obvious 'possibility' of something bad happening.

The more liberal among us can take that gamble to prove that they aren't racist but I'll proudly wear the racist card on my jacket before allowing danger to befall my loved ones. Liberals/Liberal-tarians....

I suppose your above is why I so often ask others to 'define' what they are addressing. I don't really care for labels that convey understanding, but often we are speaking of different things.

I wrote above that I've yet to find a 'party Libertarian' I could vote for. That doesn't really matter, I look for someone that at least addresses the problems with what I find a reasonable approach. If I've labeled it wrong, at least I know what I'm looking for.

[jimnyc]

Are you afraid of people who do not look like you?

My daughter and I once went to Cincinnati to watch a Reds' game. We had to park far away. On the way back, it was dark and there were lots of black people around. I admit I was afraid. I am probably a racist.

People and places don't scare me. I've been in the Bronx and Harlem at 2am, Philly in the middle of the night, and even Rahway, NJ. I've been at skinhead concerts and I've been at all black rap battles. I once walked about a mile through Spanish Harlem in the middle of the night. But in fairness, that place was as active in the middle of the night than in broad daylight!!

[fj1200]

-- TOTAL CHAOS.

I'll save my comments for the Libertarian thread but in short you need to educate yourself.

[fj1200]

LIBERAL-TARIAN.....LIBERTARIAN......LIBERAL. Its about the same to me.

You do know that the root of Libertarian is Liberty don't you? Liberty as in freedom?

[Perianne]

...That was not smart going to your car despite the obvious 'possibility' of something bad happening.....


What was not smart was parking so far away. But it looked safe when I parked there..during the daylight. I didn't realize how dark it was at that spot at night.


People and places don't scare me. I've been in the Bronx and Harlem at 2am, Philly in the middle of the night, and even Rahway, NJ. I've been at skinhead concerts and I've been at all black rap battles. I once walked about a mile through Spanish Harlem in the middle of the night. But in fairness, that place was as active in the middle of the night than in broad daylight!!

I'm happy for you that you guys are not frightened, but you are not five feet tall and a woman.

[jimnyc]

I'm happy for you that you guys are not frightened, but you are not five feet tall and a woman.

Carry a .50 caliber, or at least a .22, or even a taser? I guess you wouldn't be allowed in the stadium though. Hmmmmmm..... I've been to quite a few Yankee games in the Bronx and we've been in similar situations. Sometimes you park pretty far away, and people aren't the most friendly! And not only do you have to worry about not getting mugged, many people are out there trying to scam tourists too. At least now with the new stadium they built a big parking structure across the street. Yeah, that sucks, not many protection options when going to any stadiums. I guess you can have it in the car at least, and hope that's there when you get back. :)

[Drummond]

You do know that the root of Libertarian is Liberty don't you? Liberty as in freedom?

Freedom against the machinery of Government. Am I right ?

Governmental ACCOUNTABILITY to the ordinary citizen is one thing. But to go further is ultimately just vandalistic.

I've posted at length on the lessons which can be learned from UK history, particularly from the 1970's and into the early '80's. And you know, FJ .... you'll never concede it, but you've placed yourself in an impossibly ridiculous position. You're actually wedded to two mutually exclusive positions, and you're claiming loyalty to BOTH of them.

In short: a hallmark of Lady Thatcher's Premiership was her willingness to pass laws which curbed freedoms, when she saw a practical need for it. Union freedoms, to be exact ... a law against secondary picketing, for one. A law on the permitted size of a picket line, for another. The outlawing of the Closed Shop.

She banned the right of IRA members to be heard on the UK's airwaves.

You see, FJ, when it really comes down to it, you're a Leftie. If you had been a UK citizen during her Premiership, you'd have been AGAINST her drive towards strong and uncompromising Government.

Either that, or, you're lying about being a Libertarian. Which I doubt, because Libertarianism is way too exploitable by the Left as a means of damaging social order ......

[Jeff]

LIBERAL-TARIAN.....LIBERTARIAN......LIBERAL. Its about the same to me. I once considered Libertarian but there are simply too many nuts in that group of "thinkers". Jesse The Potty Ventura, Nut paul and many dope smokers. I believe it was said that our founders were very much in line with what REAL libertarians believe but REAL libertarians and liberals disguising themselves as libertarian simply doesn't cut the mustard. I'm not happy with the bunch the Republicans are, yet again, throwing at us but at least they aren't a Dr. NUT who would probably be in line with B.O. over the Iran issue or a Mittens who was/is in line with B.O. on Control Care.

Back to the purpose of the thread; being observant isn't racist and when you study the actions of a certain group and MOST of them are evil (as with muSLUM sewers) I believe you are able to get a darn good picture as to what to beware (NOT FEAR). Same applies to any given groups.....all you have to do is observe (AND PLAY IT SMART). That was not smart going to your car despite the obvious 'possibility' of something bad happening.

The more liberal among us can take that gamble to prove that they aren't racist but I'll proudly wear the racist card on my jacket before allowing danger to befall my loved ones. Liberals/Liberal-tarians....


You do know that the root of Libertarian is Liberty don't you? Liberty as in freedom?

fj you may be 100% correct but I think from what I have seen Red has a pretty good grasp of what Today's Libertarians are, to me they are simply a much more even thinking Liberal, they believe in the live and let live but draw the line when it comes to disagreeing with everything just to be different or just to make things different. If y'all remember Emmett he explained it to me in a similar way back a few years.

With that said in some ways I consider myself a Libertarian, I love the idea of live and let live and not counting on the Government for handouts and all that, but the last few years I have see to many that consider themselves Libertarians acting more like liberals. With that said I guess I am more like what Kat said, the only difference being is I would call it a Conservative leaning Libertarian.

[jimnyc]

Was just listening to this, made me think of this thread. Take a smoke break and enjoy! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoiHX9azZeQ

[fj1200]

fj you may be 100% correct but I think from what I have seen Red has a pretty good grasp of what Today's Libertarians are, to me they are simply a much more even thinking Liberal, they believe in the live and let live but draw the line when it comes to disagreeing with everything just to be different or just to make things different. If y'all remember Emmett he explained it to me in a similar way back a few years.

With that said in some ways I consider myself a Libertarian, I love the idea of live and let live and not counting on the Government for handouts and all that, but the last few years I have see to many that consider themselves Libertarians acting more like liberals. With that said I guess I am more like what Kat said, the only difference being is I would call it a Conservative leaning Libertarian.

I'm dubious. There is nothing liberal about libertarians. The old knock on them is that the gun nuts are afraid of the druggies and the druggies are afraid of the gun nuts. But I know what you're saying, just because someone on the left grabs a particular LP position doesn't make them a Libertarian. And a Libertarian/conservative that is for gay marriage because the state has no business favoring one relationship over another doesn't make them a "leftie." The Libertarian Party is just the only party right now that advocates the most liberty based/small government platform.

And of course they're no where near the levers of power so they don't have the responsibility of actually governing and they have no realistic chance of getting their either. That being said they should, IMO, take the position of maximum liberty because someone needs to do it. If we had different election laws they could garner more votes but that is the world we are in.

[fj1200]

Freedom against the machinery of Government. Am I right ?

... you're a Leftie. ...

You are one stupid lying sack of excrement. I try to keep this above board but your absolute inability to discuss anything without resorting to your mindless, ignorant imagination makes that impossible. So try and have a reasonable discussion or I will continue to point out the reality of your intelligence... or lack thereof as it were.

That being said, no. Freedom of life, liberty, and property. Freedom from the abuse of government. Freedom from those who would use government to limit one's freedom. Your characterization of Libertarian is in short, wrong; In no place do they argue for the abolition of the state.

[Kathianne]

You are one stupid lying sack of excrement. I try to keep this above board but your absolute inability to discuss anything without resorting to your mindless, ignorant imagination makes that impossible. So try and have a reasonable discussion or I will continue to point out the reality of your intelligence... or lack thereof as it were.

That being said, no. Freedom of life, liberty, and property. Freedom from the abuse of government. Freedom from those who would use government to limit one's freedom. Your characterization of Libertarian is in short, wrong; In no place do they argue for the abolition of the state.

I can't go along with the first sentence, otherwise I'd thank.

Either Drummond just wishes to continue to repeat what he's said, regardless of the different examples and differences between UK and here. Union folks are not going to go 'libertarian' here, never would. They stand for regulations from here to beyond.

[fj1200]

I can't go along with the first sentence, otherwise I'd thank.

Either Drummond just wishes to continue to repeat what he's said, regardless of the different examples and differences between UK and here. Union folks are not going to go 'libertarian' here, never would. They stand for regulations from here to beyond.

;)

Yeah, I can't imagine a "Libertarian world" and the 70's UK, or 70's anywhere for that matter, being anything other than polar opposites.

[Gunny]

Now, THIS, I don't have any particular problem with. It's a societal way of preserving individualistic rights and values.

But Libertarianism, taken literally, is a nonsense. It can only lead to chaos and lends itself towards an excuse for anarchy. Which is something that certain brands of Left-winger would thrive on.

Since I equate Conservatism with strong law and order, I cannot possibly see Libertarianism as Conservative in nature.


I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but it seems you are saying that your take on libertarianism is reason to discount it, regardless of those who subscribe to some aspects of it being more conservative than the current crop of conservatives.

What seems to me to turn off current self-described conservatives to libertarianism is the core difference that we are all free to make our own choices and live with the consequences, including those with other beliefs or of backgrounds different than our own.

The Golden Rule seems pretty evident in most libertarians I am familiar with, Ron Paul being the most well known exception.

I was going to whack you, but I think Kathianne beat me to the punch. Simply: I think you have a different view of libertarians than we do.

[Drummond]

I can't go along with the first sentence, otherwise I'd thank.

Either Drummond just wishes to continue to repeat what he's said, regardless of the different examples and differences between UK and here. Union folks are not going to go 'libertarian' here, never would. They stand for regulations from here to beyond.

But, ARE the UK and US so very different in this ?

I'm not saying that the US went through the social upheavals, &/or sheer chaos, that the UK did. But, surely it's common to both our countries that Trade Unions will take on Government in a contrived dispute if they've a mind to.

All of the Union members doing so could surely be said to be acting in a Libertarian manner ! After all, they're acting as people determined to get their own way, devoid of deference to any State or Governmental interests .. the 'ordinary working man' standing up for 'his rights' ... eh ?

That they're all too often being led and driven to acting as they do by those exercising a pro-Leftie agenda .. just always 'happens' to be, ahem, 'incidental' ...

Please face this fact: Leftieism, and Libertarianism, lock together as they were both jigsaw pieces designed to do so. The Left can use individual ambition to defy State concerns on a whim. Doesn't that sound to you to be tailor-made for a Libertarian mindset ?

In the UK, it was obviously the case that Left-led groups have been hell bent on defying the State. In 1984, one Arthur Scargill plainly said that he wanted the Government of Margaret Thatcher overthrown. Why ? Because, as a Trade Union leader, and militant, it served his purpose. Oh, he manufactured his 'industrial case' as an excuse. But he resented State decisions, he wanted them overturned, and he didn't care how much harm he did in chasing his goal.

As it turned out, Mrs Thatcher learned lessons from Ted Heath's example of a decade earlier. SHE KNEW THAT THE STATE HAD TO PREVAIL, OTHERWISE AN UNDEMOCRATIC EXTREMISM WOULD DEFEAT HER DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT.

She pitted State powers against Scargill and his Union thugs. She won out. Because she'd prepared so well, because she didn't flinch from using Governmental powers, her ability to stop Scargill's wrecking agenda, DESIGNED TO SERVE LEFT WING INTERESTS, succeeded.

Scargill, along with every Union member involved, were anti-the State, all it was, all it was doing. They put their interests above State ones. They dreamed of recreating the ruination of the '70's to force THEIR will on everyone.

They failed, because Mrs Thatcher's Government won out against them.

CONSERVATIVE forces against ANTI-STATE ONES ... the challenge coming from MILITANT LEFTIEISM.

I'm sorry, Kathianne, but you (and FJ) really do need to acknowledge this fact: Libertarianism is the natural tool of the Left. They are essentially indivisible. And ... I'm enjoying FJ's impossible dilemna ! He cannot claim to be both Libertarian, and Thatcherite !!! It's a complete nonsense. He should tell us which of these sides he will now distance himself from.

[Gunny]

But, ARE the UK and US so very different in this ?

I'm not saying that the US went through the social upheavals, &/or sheer chaos, that the UK did. But, surely it's common to both our countries that Trade Unions will take on Government in a contrived dispute if they've a mind to.

All of the Union members doing so could surely be said to be acting in a Libertarian manner ! After all, they're acting as people determined to get their own way, devoid of deference to any State or Governmental interests .. the 'ordinary working man' standing up for 'his rights' ... eh ?

That they're all too often being led and driven to acting as they do by those exercising a pro-Leftie agenda .. just always 'happens' to be, ahem, 'incidental' ...

Please face this fact: Leftieism, and Libertarianism, lock together as they were both jigsaw pieces designed to do so. The Left can use individual ambition to defy State concerns on a whim. Doesn't that sound to you to be tailor-made for a Libertarian mindset ?

In the UK, it was obviously the case that Left-led groups have been hell bent on defying the State. In 1984, one Arthur Scargill plainly said that he wanted the Government of Margaret Thatcher overthrown. Why ? Because, as a Trade Union leader, and militant, it served his purpose. Oh, he manufactured his 'industrial case' as an excuse. But he resented State decisions, he wanted them overturned, and he didn't care how much harm he did in chasing his goal.

As it turned out, Mrs Thatcher learned lessons from Ted Heath's example of a decade earlier. SHE KNEW THAT THE STATE HAD TO PREVAIL, OTHERWISE AN UNDEMOCRATIC EXTREMISM WOULD DEFEAT HER DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT.

She pitted State powers against Scargill and his Union thugs. She won out. Because she'd prepared so well, because she didn't flinch from using Governmental powers, her ability to stop Scargill's wrecking agenda, DESIGNED TO SERVE LEFT WING INTERESTS, succeeded.

Scargill, along with every Union member involved, were anti-the State, all it was, all it was doing. They put their interests above State ones. They dreamed of recreating the ruination of the '70's to force THEIR will on everyone.

They failed, because Mrs Thatcher's Government won out against them.

CONSERVATIVE forces against ANTI-STATE ONES ... the challenge coming from MILITANT LEFTIEISM.

I'm sorry, Kathianne, but you (and FJ) really do need to acknowledge this fact: Libertarianism is the natural tool of the Left. They are essentially indivisible. And ... I'm enjoying FJ's impossible dilemna ! He cannot claim to be both Libertarian, and Thatcherite !!! It's a complete nonsense. He should tell us which of these sides he will now distance himself from.

We are VERY different.

[Drummond]

I was going to whack you, but I think Kathianne beat me to the punch. Simply: I think you have a different view of libertarians than we do.

Libertarians are individuals who don't want to be shackled to State-driven, Government interests, who want individualism to triumph against State powers. Correct ?

That, Gunny, IS WHAT THE LEFT-WING UNIONS IN THE UK, WHEN OPPOSING MRS THATCHER'S GOVERNMENT, WERE ALL ABOUT.

The only 'difference' is that they went about it in an organised manner.

Mrs Thatcher valued the individual. She wanted to empower the individual. But, NEVER did she want it to go so far that the Government itself suffered defeats, or that laws and State powers were defied.

But the Left, in opposition, when they were outside Government, were all about that. People such as Scargill were obsessed in their dreams of seeing the State 'put in its place'. After all, Scargill's NUM predecessor managed JUST THAT against Heath, and by making the whole of society suffer, they overthrew the Conservatives of that period.

Face it, Gunny. Libertarianism and militant Leftieism are extremes that are made for each other. Your friend FJ, in claiming identification with Libertarianism AND Thatcherism, insults all pro-Thatcherites and claims, essentially, to be a Left wing staunch Conservative !!

Which is completely ridiculous ... he HAS to be bogus on one or other of those so-called 'allegiances'.

[Drummond]

We are VERY different.

Everything I know proves otherwise. My case is proven. It was proved long ago.

[tailfins]

Everything I know proves otherwise. My case is proven. It was proved long ago.

The Libertarian Party is a boutique political party. It's membership runs the gambit from far left to far right. They generally help Republicans lose elections by siphoning off votes.

[Trigg]

I'm careful around all groups who look a little shady, especially if the group in question are all younger men, it's later at night and I know the neighborhood is sketchy.

It pays to be aware of your surroundings, I don't want to look like an easy mark.

[jimnyc]

I don't Fear the Reaper :)

[Drummond]

The Libertarian Party is a boutique political party. It's membership runs the gambit from far left to far right. They generally help Republicans lose elections by siphoning off votes.

... yes. I'll just bet they do !!

I once dealt with a Leftie who claimed, on another forum, to be a 'Christian Conservative Democrat'. And yes ... he (surprise, surprise) was a TRADE UNIONIST.

And he was from your part of the planet, not mine .. he hailed from Las Vegas.

Lefties will claim Conservative bona fides if they think they can get away with it. They're completely shameless. In fact, I'm also reminded of ... who IS it, whose monicker escapes my memory for the moment .... ??:rolleyes::laugh::rolleyes:

[LongTermGuy]

... yes. I'll just bet they do !!

I once dealt with a Leftie who claimed, on another forum, to be a 'Christian Conservative Democrat'. And yes ... he (surprise, surprise) was a TRADE UNIONIST.

And he was from your part of the planet, not mine .. he hailed from Las Vegas.

Lefties will claim Conservative bona fides if they think they can get away with it. They're completely shameless. In fact, I'm also reminded of ... who IS it, whose monicker escapes my memory for the moment .... ??:rolleyes::laugh::rolleyes:


:clap::clap::clap:...well said...Plus the sneaky Leftist who `claim Conservatism` ...will try to mislead...confuse and re-direct....opinions

[Drummond]

:clap::clap::clap:...well said...Plus the sneaky Leftist who `claim Conservatism` ...will try to mislead...confuse and re-direct....opinions:clap::clap::clap:

As Americans would say ... 'Back Atcha ..' (I got that from Stargate: Continuum') !

The Left will do what it takes to win through. Any and all trickery will do, because they're not constrained by any limits they themselves don't like. Their own, self-centred aims, are all they care about. State powers getting in the way ? Society harmed ? They'll bulldoze their way to win out, whatever the cost.

[Kathianne]

The Libertarian Party is a boutique political party. It's membership runs the gambit from far left to far right. They generally help Republicans lose elections by siphoning off votes.

Which actually addresses the fact that more in the US run towards conservatism. The Republicans are not that for the most part.

As I've said, when it comes to President it comes to choosing D or R, I'll choose R. I always vote. ;)

[Kathianne]

Everything I know proves otherwise. My case is proven. It was proved long ago.

Perhaps you've 'proven' it for the UK, but you are way off in the US.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Which actually addresses the fact that more in the US run towards conservatism. The Republicans are not that for the most part.

As I've said, when it comes to President it comes to choosing D or R, I'll choose R. I always vote. ;)

Sadly, to do otherwise is aiding in the destruction of this nation.
Always vote Republican because the dem choice is either a fool , a corrupt bastard or a leftist zealot. Quite often is all three..-Tyr

[Gunny]

The Libertarian Party is a boutique political party. It's membership runs the gambit from far left to far right. They generally help Republicans lose elections by siphoning off votes.

WHAT "Libertarian Party"? There isn't one. "Libertarians" are lumped into anyone who won't fall into the party line. Simple as THAT. I'm an independent Constitutionalist. I'm also a classic old school liberal from Hell. And I'm conservative. You tell ME who's shifting the rug here? My beliefs are the same. the two parties that control our government have shifted the paradigm so far left it isn't funny. All they care about id control and that fat paycheck.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

WHAT "Libertarian Party"? There isn't one. "Libertarians" are lumped into anyone who won't fall into the party line. Simple as THAT. I'm an independent Constitutionalist. I'm also a classic old school liberal from Hell. And I'm conservative. You tell ME who's shifting the rug here? My beliefs are the same. the two parties that control our government have shifted the paradigm so far left it isn't funny. All they care about id control and that fat paycheck.

Yet we have a two party dictatorship forming and to stop it(rather slow it down ) one must vote for the lesser of the two evils. That has been the case since at the very least 1950 onward but truly started in earnest back with Wilson IMHO.
I'd not vote democrat even at the point of a gun...
They are by their party platform and socialist ideology nothing short of damn traitors.
If we had a real education system based upon teaching truth, reality and the American Constitution people would see that ...
We do not and thus they get to march ever forward to their ultimate goal of One World Government(globalists).. -Tyr

[tailfins]

WHAT "Libertarian Party"? There isn't one. "Libertarians" are lumped into anyone who won't fall into the party line. Simple as THAT. I'm an independent Constitutionalist. I'm also a classic old school liberal from Hell. And I'm conservative. You tell ME who's shifting the rug here? My beliefs are the same. the two parties that control our government have shifted the paradigm so far left it isn't funny. All they care about id control and that fat paycheck.

I hope you're speaking substantively. They can be counted on to field a candidate and throw elections to the Democrats. For the election 2012, they ran former NM Governor Gary Johnson for President. He will run again in 2016 and help Hillary. Here is their web site if you're (hopefully not too) interested.

http://www.lp.org/

Would you like to help them pay off the mortgage on their new office?

http://www.lp.org/files/images/2013_building_fund_meter.png

[fj1200]

Libertarians are individuals who don't want to be shackled to State-driven, Government interests, who want individualism to triumph against State powers. Correct ?

That, Gunny, IS WHAT THE LEFT-WING UNIONS IN THE UK, WHEN OPPOSING MRS THATCHER'S GOVERNMENT, WERE ALL ABOUT.

Face it, Gunny. Libertarianism and militant Leftieism are extremes that are made for each other.

I can't imagine how you can be any more wrong. In no measurable way do Libertarians and left-wing unions want the same thing. I'm sure the only reason they opposed the government at that time is because who was in control.


Now, THIS, I don't have any particular problem with. It's a societal way of preserving individualistic rights and values.

But Libertarianism, taken literally, is a nonsense. It can only lead to chaos and lends itself towards an excuse for anarchy. Which is something that certain brands of Left-winger would thrive on.

Since I equate Conservatism with strong law and order, I cannot possibly see Libertarianism as Conservative in nature.

Please point out where Libertarians are opposed to law and order?

[fj1200]

... throw elections to the Democrats.

In very few cases and not in 2012. Not to say of course we couldn't use some election reforms in this country. I think a run-off election should be required in every Federal election including POTUS electors.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I can't imagine how you can be any more wrong. In no measurable way do Libertarians and left-wing unions want the same thing. I'm sure the only reason they opposed the government at that time is because who was in control.

I believe if memory serves me well that they did in Britain.
One must remember that much of what Drummond presents comes from his life experiences he had there.
However , I did post a list of Google links citing the major connection that exists with socialism and Libertarians.
For one to say that it does not exist is folly IMHO... -Tyr

[fj1200]

However , I did post a list of Google links citing the major connection that exists with socialism and Libertarians.

Let me guess, you googled "socialism" and "Libertarians"?

[Perianne]

Are you afraid of people who do not look like you?

My daughter and I once went to Cincinnati to watch a Reds' game. We had to park far away. On the way back, it was dark and there were lots of black people around. I admit I was afraid. I am probably a racist.

No, not a racist. You were correct and wise to be afraid. Cincinnati is the armpit of America, full of mongrels whose only purpose in life is to inflict misery on the superior classes. Anyway, here are some "people" making fun of a superior being beaten by suboids.

Caution: lots of bad words and disturbing images.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/07/horror-black-youths-mock-and-laugh-at-unconscious-and-bloody-white-male-victim-after-july-4th-beatdown-video/

[fj1200]

No, not a racist. ... here are some "people" making fun of a superior being beaten by suboids.

Methinks you don't know the definition.

[WiccanLiberal]

I tend to trust my instincts. If someone sets my nerves humming, I use caution, maybe edge away or find a more safe feeling position. I don't much care about the ethnicity of the person. If they make me nervous, that is enough. I refuse to let their skin color make me second guess my safety. And I don't believe that's racist. Just listening to my "spidey senses".

[Kathianne]

Methinks you don't know the definition.

Hey, that IS toning down what may be 'perceived' as racist. :coffee:

[Jeff]

She's certainly not alone, though some do get rejected:

http://vaviper.blogspot.com/2015/04/heres-bit-of-americana-for-you-1920s.html

Cool thanks for the App Kat. :laugh::laugh::laugh:


J/K Jeeesh

[sundaydriver]

I'm suffering from severe fear right now.In ~2 hrs. the roofer will want his check for finishing the new roof on the house. Then real fear sets in Wednesday when he'll want another 50% check for the cost of the new garage roof which is larger & more costly than the house,and another on Saturday when it's complete. :eek:

[Perianne]

Methinks you don't know the definition.

Methinks you missed the point of the man being beaten. But it is your right to focus more on the politically correct everyone is equal crap.

[Abbey Marie]

I suppose your above is why I so often ask others to 'define' what they are addressing. I don't really care for labels that convey understanding, but often we are speaking of different things.

I wrote above that I've yet to find a 'party Libertarian' I could vote for. That doesn't really matter, I look for someone that at least addresses the problems with what I find a reasonable approach. If I've labeled it wrong, at least I know what I'm looking for.

This is why I enjoy quizzes like the one we've recently taken here. It may not be 100% perfect, but it helps me to determine which candidates think as I do, without the need for any misleading party labels.

Both my husband and I are registered Republican, but we have occasionally voted Dem on the local level, for local reasons.

As for the thread premise, I believe several years ago even Jesse Jackson was quoted saying he will cross the street in certain situations if a black man is walking behind him. I will let others decide if he is racist in that case.

Growing up in a Bronx housing project, I had to learn to be careful, and very aware of my surroundings. This is truly regardless of race, and even gender. But I would be lying if I said all things are equally scary out on the streets. They just aren't.

[jimnyc]

Don't fear the reaper!

[Abbey Marie]

Don't fear the reaper!

i loathe that song!

[Perianne]

Don't fear the reaper!

I can't say I fear the reaper, though like nearly all humans, I probably do more than I realize.

What I DO fear is a beating such as the one I linked to. As as ER nurse I have seen such beatings, shootings, stabbings, etc. There is nothing much more upsetting than seeing someone's eyeball hanging out of the socket as the result of a beating. Yes, I fear those things.

[jimnyc]

i loathe that song!

Fear of the dark then! :laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epYKVcHrVr0

[gabosaurus]

You don't need to fear anyone. You merely need to be aware of your surroundings.
My daughter takes the same precautions walking around our upper class neighborhood as she does when she is visiting my sister in East Los Angeles.
If I am walking down the street and a group of black or Latino guys are coming toward me, I am not going to cross or go into a panic. A smile is as good of protection as you need.

[Loralei]

Are you afraid of people who do not look like you?

My daughter and I once went to Cincinnati to watch a Reds' game. We had to park far away. On the way back, it was dark and there were lots of black people around. I admit I was afraid. I am probably a racist.

Nope. I am a Navy brat and have lived pretty much all around the world for many years.

Then I lived in England for 5 years, so being around people of different colour doesn't bother me a whole lot.

Although while living in the Leeds/Wakefield area, I learned to deal with the Pakistani's who would talk about the Yankee coming into their paper shops. :laugh:

[tailfins]

i loathe that song!

Of course! It advocates suicide.

[Loralei]

The Libertarian Party is a boutique political party. It's membership runs the gambit from far left to far right.

They generally help Republicans lose elections by siphoning off votes.

True dat.

hmmmm :cool:

[aboutime]

You don't need to fear anyone. You merely need to be aware of your surroundings. My daughter takes the same precautions walking around our upper class neighborhood as she does when she is visiting my sister in East Los Angeles. If I am walking down the street and a group of black or Latino guys are coming toward me, I am not going to cross or go into a panic. A smile is as good of protection as you need. Sure thing gabby. How bout you try the same thing, with a SMILE, in Baltimore, on a weekday night, about 11 p.m.?Then let us know...if you survive, where to send the flowers for your hospital room, or Funeral home.

[Perianne]

Sure thing gabby. How bout you try the same thing, with a SMILE, in Baltimore, on a weekday night, about 11 p.m.?Then let us know...if you survive, where to send the flowers for your hospital room, or Funeral home.

I don't think she was being serious. She is smarter than that.

[Abbey Marie]

Of course! It advocates suicide.

And in such an insidious way.

[fj1200]

Methinks you missed the point of the man being beaten. But it is your right to focus more on the politically correct everyone is equal crap.

Actually I'm just relating back to the OP and the definition of racism. Being afraid of the unknown or a potentially harmful situation is entirely different than being a racist. You use words a racist would use.


I am probably a racist.

I do have to say it's pretty rare for anyone to refer to principles in the Declaration of Independence as politically correct. Such is your right I suppose.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.