PDA

View Full Version : Does 1st Am. ban on govt regulating religion, trump Fed pro-gay "equal treatmt" laws?



Little-Acorn
03-31-2015, 12:14 PM
Most people are familiar with the 1st amendment, which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

Many of the world's most widespread religions are based on texts that describe homosexuality as wrong, punishable, and even forbidden.

Now in the U.S. the Fed govt has passed legislation saying that businesses cannot refuse to serve customers because they are homosexual.

Does that legislation violate the 1st amendment for people in those religions, who run businesses?

Which law takes precedence? A Federal law forcing religious people to do things forbidden in their religions? Or a Constitutional passage saying the Fed can't make such a law?

Some issues are obvious: If some religion calls for the sacrifice of virgins, clearly the Fed can make laws against that, since such a religion is violating OTHER constitutional rights (the virgins' right to life).

Does the Fed law forcing people to treat homosexuals "equally", violate another right listed in the Constitution?

------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-indiana-religious-objections-law-20150330-story.html#page=1

Indiana religious freedom act: What's behind the law and the backlash

Tim Cook
March 30, 2015, 6:15 PM

When Indiana approved a law designed to allow residents and business owners to use their religious beliefs as reason to deny services to some people, the conservative state braced for some fallout. But the response was quicker and harder after a campaign from critics who argued the law discriminates against gays and lesbians..

Within days, Indiana was the target of a social media boycott campaign, threatening its lucrative convention business. Top business leaders from the technology sector slammed the state. San Francisco and Seattle announced they were barring publicly funded travel to Indiana. Connecticut and Washington state announced they would follow suit. Even the NCAA, a temple to what some consider to be the religion of basketball, weighed in, saying it was disappointed in the new law and wanted a clarification before deciding what to do about future events and tournaments.

Indiana legislative leaders are scrambling to contain the potential damage, announcing they will pass language to clarify that the law, which goes into effect in July, does not discriminate against gays and lesbians, despite the fear that it does. Here is a guide to understanding the issue that is a political window into the changing nature of gay rights.

What happened in Indiana?

Gov. Mike Pence, a conservative Republican, last week signed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, designed to “help protect churches, Christian businesses and individuals from those who want to punish them because of their biblical beliefs,” he said. Twenty states have similar laws, though the exact language differs. Sixteen more states are considering passage of some form of the law.

Isn’t there a federal version of the law? How does it differ from the state laws?

Yes. The federal version of the law was signed in 1993 by President Clinton and was considered a liberal response to a conservative Supreme Court ruling in 1990. The court ruled against Native Americans who argued that their use of peyote was a religious requirement. In effect, the court decided that states could ban the sacramental use of peyote. That changed the legal standard for what states could and could not do in the area of religious practices.

Liberals quickly moved to protect the tribes by passing a measure to protect religious practices from government interference. Two decades later, it is conservatives who are seeking the new laws.

tailfins
03-31-2015, 12:49 PM
In the modern judicial interpretation of the Constitution, it must be applied in a socially responsible manner. The Constitution is a living, breathing document and must be implicitly modified to promote social responsibility.

Professor: Do I get bonus points for my well-nuanced answer?

fj1200
03-31-2015, 12:51 PM
...

Now in the U.S. the Fed govt has passed legislation saying that businesses cannot refuse to serve customers because they are homosexual.

...

Does the Fed law forcing people to treat homosexuals "equally", violate another right listed in the Constitution?

Which Federal legislation states that businesses can't refuse gay customers? Gays aren't a protected class last I knew.

Nevertheless I think it's more legislation based on the well-worn idea that we can legislate people to be nice especially when there is no real harm to the gay community by not being "protected."

Little-Acorn
03-31-2015, 01:43 PM
In the modern judicial interpretation of the Constitution, it must be applied in a socially responsible manner. The Constitution is a living, breathing document and must be implicitly modified to promote social responsibility.

Professor: Do I get bonus points for my well-nuanced answer?

+2 points for nuance.
-100 for being fundamentally wrong.

The Constitution is not a "living, breathing document". That was just a bunch of liberals trying to make excuses for violating it.

It is an "enduring" document. One which is written on paper, for the purpose of keeping what it says without [ changing.

It sounds like the liberals (in both parties) want the Fed govt to be able to regulate the part of religion (some of them) that says homosexuality is wrong, or immoral, or whatever the particular religion says.

It is illegal (unconstitutional) for them to do so?

Will a Constitutional amendment be needed for the Fed to be able to legally do this? One that says "except for legislation that mandates treatment of homosexuals"?

What are the chances of such an amendment getting 3/4 of the states to ratify?

aboutime
03-31-2015, 02:44 PM
In the modern judicial interpretation of the Constitution, it must be applied in a socially responsible manner. The Constitution is a living, breathing document and must be implicitly modified to promote social responsibility.

Professor: Do I get bonus points for my well-nuanced answer?


Wrong tailfins. The U.S. Constitution is NOT a living, breathing document. Only the ability to amend the document are (so to speak) holding the ability to make it so.

Just like the endless perpetuation of those who demand the 1st amendment states a SEPARATION of church and state...WHICH IT DOES NOT STATE.

gabosaurus
03-31-2015, 02:49 PM
If the Constitution guarantees the right to observe Christian laws, does it also guarantee Muslim and Hindu rules?
What about the people who are not religious? Why should they have to abide by non-secular rules?

aboutime
03-31-2015, 02:52 PM
If the Constitution guarantees the right to observe Christian laws, does it also guarantee Muslim and Hindu rules?
What about the people who are not religious? Why should they have to abide by non-secular rules?

Gabby. Your ignorance precedes you on this one. Show us, or anyone here..WHERE the constitution guarantee's anyone the right to observe Christian, Muslim, or Hindu rules?

Which amendment would those words happen to appear in, or where in the document have you seen them?

tailfins
03-31-2015, 07:00 PM
Wrong tailfins. The U.S. Constitution is NOT a living, breathing document. Only the ability to amend the document are (so to speak) holding the ability to make it so.

Just like the endless perpetuation of those who demand the 1st amendment states a SEPARATION of church and state...WHICH IT DOES NOT STATE.

Um, AT. I thought even you would pick up on that my response was dripping with sarcasm. I wasn't even being subtle about it.

aboutime
03-31-2015, 07:11 PM
Um, AT. I thought even you would pick up on that my response was dripping with sarcasm. I wasn't even being subtle about it.

Based on past experiences here with you. Nobody would be willing to accept your claims of sarcasm. IMO.

tailfins
03-31-2015, 08:42 PM
If the Constitution guarantees the right to observe Christian laws, does it also guarantee Muslim and Hindu rules?
What about the people who are not religious? Why should they have to abide by non-secular rules?

When you throw away recognition of our Creator, you throw away the concept of inalienable rights.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

fj1200
04-01-2015, 12:54 PM
If the Constitution guarantees the right to observe Christian laws, does it also guarantee Muslim and Hindu rules?
What about the people who are not religious? Why should they have to abide by non-secular rules?

Um, yes; Constitutionally speaking. And the non-religious don't have to abide by non-secular rules. The RFRA essentially honors the property rights of religious folk.


When you throw away recognition of our Creator, you throw away the concept of inalienable rights.

I don't think we need to insist on our Creator to defend the Natural Rights of citizens.

Gunny
04-01-2015, 01:02 PM
In the modern judicial interpretation of the Constitution, it must be applied in a socially responsible manner. The Constitution is a living, breathing document and must be implicitly modified to promote social responsibility.

Professor: Do I get bonus points for my well-nuanced answer?

Bullshit. It's a cut and dried set of laws. People have used the judiciary to circumvent them; which, is bullshit too. But take a stand ...

Either those laws are based on Judeo-Christianity or not. The truth is obvious. Tell that to some idiot claiming they aren't. You want a circuitous argument that has no basis in fact? Go for it.

The whole world's problem is trying to force others to believe what they do. I have to get only me to Heaven.

tailfins
04-01-2015, 01:58 PM
Bullshit. It's a cut and dried set of laws. People have used the judiciary to circumvent them; which, is bullshit too. But take a stand ...

Either those laws are based on Judeo-Christianity or not. The truth is obvious. Tell that to some idiot claiming they aren't. You want a circuitous argument that has no basis in fact? Go for it.

The whole world's problem is trying to force others to believe what they do. I have to get only me to Heaven.

The "Professor: Do I get bonus points for my well-nuanced answer?" should have tipped you off that I was illustrating what gets taught in Universities these days. The "some idiot" you refer to is on the government payroll.

Gunny
04-01-2015, 02:12 PM
The "Professor: Do I get bonus points for my well-nuanced answer?" should have tipped you off that I was illustrating what gets taught in Universities these days. The "some idiot" you refer to is on the government payroll.

So this means you get to be wrong just because I get to be right, right? :)