Protect & Serve

[Elessar]

I'm sure most people on the board see me as very pro police. The majority of time I am defending them and their actions. Again, for me it's a case by case basis. It's not about being pro police or a police hater, but for me it's usually about the rule of law. I hold myself to a different standard though. :lol:



Me as well...

Why is that message not clear here?

[Elessar]

Abbey it's fine. but it just seem that everyone comes to this thread to Condemn the victims or indigo and I.


Just WHO is condemning the 'victims'? You jump immediately on the anti-cop bandwagon
before the facts sort out.

If the cop is wrong, when facts are laid out, thus it be.

If the 'victim' is at fault, you STILL focus on the cop.

You wear your hypocrisy like a badge, Rev.

[Abbey Marie]

Just want to add, though Rev and I may not agree on everything, I respect his views due to his integrity and passion for his beliefs.

[Elessar]

ok but i have to say it seems you... and nearly everyone else here... has had a big problem with this thread long before Dallas.

But i have to ask, If a specific police office IS an outright murderer, should it be mentioned here or anywhere Abbey?

You are nit-picking to save face. That has already been answered,
but in preparing your long-winded sermons you neglected to read.

Too bad....lost that mission.

[revelarts]

Just WHO is condemning the 'victims'? You jump immediately on the anti-cop bandwagon
before the facts sort out.
If the cop is wrong, when facts are laid out, thus it be.
If the 'victim' is at fault, you STILL focus on the cop.
You wear your hypocrisy like a badge, Rev.


What "anti-cop Band wagon"?
I've been posting this kind of information since I've arrived on this board.

And please point to where i've jumped to conclusions on cop cases.
Maybe you have me confused with someone else.

Seems you're the one making assumptions here Elessar. Just because someone post video and articles about police CLEARLY behaving badly those people are consider by you as 100% "anti-police". ridiculous.

I suppose you skipped the post where i explained that i've work on memorials for fallen cops in my city, for both public an private display. On my own time and on the clock. Attended several memorials for fallen cops. That i've publicly in open court complimented thanked officers for great treatment and professionalism when i was stopped for speeding. (After the judgment was rendered BTW)
Just a several weeks ago i was driving through a bad area where my grandmother used to live and saw 2 cops there foot patrolling LATE at night. I stopped my car chatted with them and thank them.

So Elessar i say it again you and some others here seem OVERSENSITIVE IMO, and FAR to defensive.
Just because i point out SPECIFIC cops behaving badly. Or groups of specific cops behaving badly It does NOT mean I HATE cops.
Ridiculous . Why do so many here think like that? If you don't vote for Trump you must LOVE Hillary then. WTH kind of ridiculous 1st grade thinking is that?!
It's LAZY thinking that seems to make some here feel better about riding me or DISMISSING/IGNORING the crimes mentioned here. and the suggestion for improvement.

If a Roman Catholic man starts a thread here about pedophile priest because his brother was fondled several times by more than one priest in his home town. But he and the family STILL go church, still pray, still read their Bibles. But make a point to CALL OUT bad priest on a regular basis. Make a point of pointing out bishops and areas where the problem seems worse and less well addressed. Makes a point of pointing out ways of making the priesthood BETTER at dealing with it. Makes a point of Promoting those better of proceeders.
Does that mean that person HATES PREIST or is ANTI-CHURCH?

Sure, its painful to review this crap over and over again but as you say COPS ARE PEOPLE. So IMO it's BEST that people are AWARE of the bad cops and HOW the city/state/county resolves things. For the safety of the citizens and the safety and the REP of the GOOD cops.


So look, if you can only see whats posted here as the attacks of an enemy then that YOUR problem.
I'm not your enemy.
Or the enemy of any officers just trying to do a good job.

[aboutime]

rev.. You can't fool any of us here. Your intent without actually understanding what you are doing here...with this thread, actually sounds as if you graduated from the DNC Talking Points School for Liars. Liars who repeat their lies....SO OFTEN, you actually believe your own lies, and call them facts.

[revelarts]

Rev, I'm going to jump in here without quoting anyone. I have long ties to police in Chicago and suburbs. My uncle was a lieutenant in Chicago during '68 riots. My brother was on a suburban force, (pop 50k) for just about 30 years. Uncle was 'old school' meaning bad old days in Chicago, yet he himself was very involved with the kids from the districts he'd worked on when he was on the streets. He didn't have kids, so both my aunt and he were like our favorites, they'd do anything for us. He also was like that for kids in the community. When he was retiring after 40 years, a bunch of folks showed up at his party-including kids with cards and telling stories. Their parents thanked him, also telling stories about how he'd bought food, one an old used car to keep a job, would help kids with homework, etc. Most of these folks were from the West Side of Chicago and the Shakespeare District. Neither great neighborhoods even back when. Some of those 'kids' were my age when my uncle died, 4 of them showed up for his wake.

My brother had his bachelor's when he started as a cop-in a city that required a bachelor's or military service. He was on patrol for about 3 years, then became a detective. He'd also completed his MS. He became juvie detective, spent some time in the high school. Became a member of regional advisory force, SWAT, and started teaching SWAT and police driving at U of I. Taught police management at Northwestern. Also was a sergeant, lieutenant, then deputy chief. He turned down being chief-way too many headaches and politics. Truth is, other than the education and more promotions, pretty much was like my uncle regarding working with community.

He's so glad he's not part of it anymore. He feels like the police have no choice now, they are going to be reactive for the foreseeable future. To be proactive is asking for problems that they can't afford. What this means is that they will be vigilant in stopping and arresting when indicated, but will avoid dealing with things that may be questionable and if they have a judgement call to make, it will be to not get involved. Some will have unfortunate results for the community. Some may lead to kids that might have listened, to not have that voice warning them to move away, not toward trouble.

He would not recommend anyone to become a police officer today-indeed he spoke to both his son and my son about other ways to use their degrees in law enforcement-not in police work. That was 8 years ago, even before the shootings. That was heartbreaking for him, he'd been a recruiter for the department for nearly 20 years-now he just couldn't do it. He'd considered it a calling, much like teaching. He saw the best part of his job in prevention of crime, whether talking to homeowners or being in the schools. He worked a lot in the community to establish outlets for kids, especially teens that didn't fit well into sports and activities at the schools.

I don't think these were exceptions to the police, they were the norm. My brother's friends that are cops, several are chiefs in smaller suburbs, really run the same way. They want good relations with the community. They want to identify kids, especially boys that are having a hard time at home-to get some social services and to find some positive activities with adults that might keep them out of trouble.

There are bad cops, trust me, you wouldn't want to be around the bro when one slipped through the screenings. They have a year to get rid of bad cops without cause-keeping the union out of it for the most part. The three biggest problems? 1. lazy and wouldn't do what was needed, forget about above and beyond. 2. power crazy-they are attracted for the power over others, they figured out how to avoid in psych eval, which catches most. 3. corrupt-stealing and intimidating, related to 2., but in it for gain over power.


Your Uncle's view is to bad. But it seems various areas have various views. 2nd handily I've heard a similar story of an old cop in Texas that was advising a young guy not to go into the police work in his town and was almost in tears because his dept had become so corrupt. He told him that good cops wouldn't be happy there.

but on the other side of that coin in post number #702 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?48009-Protect-amp-Serve&p=823438#post823438)
There are 3 other cops who believe police work in their towns CAN still incorporate the things your uncle was talking about.
various locals are different I'm sure but the SWAT team leader and his team in Kansas City made a 180 to do exactly the types of things your uncle mentioned and it transformed his team and the area they worked in.

[Kathianne]

Your Uncle's view is a to bad. But it seems various areas have various views. 2nd handily I've heard a similar story of an old cop in Texas that was advising a young guy not to go into the police work in his town and was almost in tears because his dept had become so corrupt. That good cops wouldn't be happy there.

but on the other side of that coin in post number #702 (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?48009-Protect-amp-Serve&p=823438#post823438)
There are 3 other cops who believe police work in their towns CAN still incorporate the things your uncle was talking about.
various locals are different I'm sure but the SWAT team leader and his team in Kansas City made 180 to do exactly the types of things your uncle mentioned and it transformed his team and the area they worked in.

It probably depends on where they are. Chicago and its suburbs are in a different category right now then other parts of the country. Dallas seems to have implemented under its current chief a similar program to what my brother was teaching and wrote about for regional training. Proactive, community based policing.

IL however is a very reactive state. BLM is a strong influence, as was OWS before. It's been that way for a long time. Proactive by its nature is going to be subjective, deciding which kids-all? Some? A few? need a bit of help or constructive suggestions rather than being hauled to juvie or even brought home to parents. Then some need the parent route, others the juvie route. Now? Like the schools it will be one size for all. Fewer 'petty arrests,' but arrest will be the consequence when most interactions happen. Police will walk away/ignore what appears to be questionable; but strongly react when the outcome is clear.

[revelarts]

Police chiefs react with disgust to Minneapolis death, try to reassure their own cities
Where once police executives may have stayed silent, this time, they denounced the officers’ actions


In light of Floyd’s death, Polk County (Texas) Sheriff Frank Lott shared his thoughts on the sheriff’s office’s Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/PolkCountySheriffsOffice/posts/3222882427755943?__tn__=-R) Wednesday. After seeing the video of Floyd being “murdered,” Lott said he was “deeply” disturbed.
“I can assure everyone, me or any of my deputies will never treat anyone like that as long as I’m Sheriff,” he wrote in the Facebook post. “This kind of brutality is terrible and it needs to stop. All Officers involved need to be arrested and charged immediately. Praying for the family.”
Texas

"I was appalled at how they treated George Floyd and the injustice ... it flies in the face of everyone who puts on a uniform every day."
DeLoach went on to say that in no training that he has ever experienced is an officer taught to place their knee on the back of someone’s neck.
"It’s not something we teach, nor condone or allow here."
His department is required to keep close track of their deputies’ actions to weed out anyone who may have a pattern of issues.
He said it's required of all accredited departments but it's also a "best practice".
"It’s an early detection or warning system to detect any biased based profiling as we call it."
Sheriff Gator DeLoach
Putnam County Florida

Police Chief Jason Shaw described the actions of the Minneapolis officers as "excessive force" and said Floyd's death is a true tragedy.
"I cannot sit silently while feeling anger by this unnecessary loss of life and disrespect for the profession that I love," said Shaw.
Shaw goes on to say that as law enforcement officers they must be willing to be critical of any injustices at the hands of other officers who abuse their power.
Palatka Florida


Sheriff Scott Rose posted a message on the department's Facebook page Wednesday, writing that the video of George Floyd's arrest "left me shocked, sad, frustrated, and angry," and that the reports of riots and protests left him feeling the same way.

Rose wrote that he felt "shocked that another officer didn’t step in and stop it. Sad seeing Mr. Floyd begging the officer to stop, saying he couldn’t breathe. Frustrated that any officer would think this was ok. Angry that George lost his life because of this."
The sheriff went on to write that the department conducts de-escalation training, writing that "we train on pressure control tactics – a knee on the neck is not part of any training we do with our staff. Please know we would never tolerate any tactics like this here in Dodge County, unless that officer absolutely felt his or her life was in jeopardy. That obviously doesn't appear to be the case with Mr. Floyd."
Dodge County Florida

Police departments all across the United States, and certainly here in Fernandina Beach, have worked diligently to improve community relations and build trust through open communication. We have developed action steps designed to improve training and capitalize on the latest technology and proven ideology. We have listened to community leaders and we have taught de-escalation tactics and outfitted our officers with in-car and body-worn cameras....
I want to assure our community that we do not tolerate the brutal behavior demonstrated in Minneapolis which led to the death of George Floyd.
...This case is different and especially egregious as it causes citizens, including many veteran police officers, to question a police culture that could allow such a situation to occur in the first place. I know that police chiefs from cities large and small are outraged by the behavior of the officers in MN and I join them in expressing my disappointment and condemning the horrific actions of a few that serve to undermine the good works of police officers all across America.
Police Chief Jim Hurley
Fernandina Beach Florida

As your Sheriff, I hear your voices. As a law enforcement leader, I am embarrassed, and outraged, at the behavior of a few officers who fail to demonstrate the professionalism and humanity required to protect and serve our diverse communities. No matter how hard I try, I simply cannot understand how these incidents continue to occur and those officers responsible seemingly go unpunished."
"The incident occurring this week in Minneapolis is very disheartening and a concern to the law enforcement profession as a whole, While the vast majority of law enforcement officers serve with the highest degree of fairness, compassion and integrity, the actions of a few officers can create a ripple effect that has the potential to negatively impact us all."
police chief Cassandra Deck-Brown
Raleigh, North Carolina

etc
etc

"

"For police officials who have been moving to improve relations with their communities by reducing their use of force, it was a sobering setback.
“There’ll be a tendency for people to look at that horrible video and say, ‘Nothing has changed,’ ” said Chuck Wexler of the Police Executive Research Forum, which trains police departments nationwide in de-escalation techniques. “And that is so wrong. So much has changed in policing.”
Police departments largely have better training now, Wexler said, and the forum’s often-promoted theory that officers respect the “sanctity of life” was cited by Arradondo in his first news conference."“These officers were held immediately accountable,” Wexler said. “Years ago, there would have been a long investigation. The first thing the police have to do is take responsibility. They did that. Watching this video makes every decent working cop sick, and it makes their job harder because the public will say nothing has changed.”
...
“If you look at policing from 20 to 30 years ago,” Acevedo said, “although we still have these egregious incidents, when you look at the total number of [police] contacts [with the public], they’re small in number. Still, one is one too many. And it’s not just one.”
Tucson Police Chief Chris Magnus tweeted that the video showed an “indefensible use of force that good officers everywhere are appalled by. … Conduct like this anywhere makes it more difficult for police everywhere to build community trust.”..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2020/05/27/police-chiefs-react-with-disgust-minneapolis-killing-try-reassure-their-own-cities/
and other sources



incidents like this make one wonder what's changed.
but frankly the fact that Other cops are so universally and publicly condemning this is a step forward and personally
this is one part of what people have been asking for for decades.


It's always felt like a it's a form of horrible gaslighting when police pretend, in the face of clear evidence or even inside knowledge,
that another cop may have had a good reason to kill someone.
Or they refuse to speak. (While condemning all others regularly, publicly and even as part of their job.)

admitting a problem and a fault is an honest step,
clearly and harshly policing themselves is another,
training is another.

[SassyLady]

incidents like this make one wonder what's changed.
but frankly the fact that Other cops are so universally and publicly condemning this is a step forward and personally
this is one part of what people have been asking for for decades.


It's always felt like a it's a form of horrible gaslighting when police pretend, in the face of clear evidence or even inside knowledge,
that another cop may have had a good reason to kill someone.
Or they refuse to speak. (While condemning all others regularly, publicly and even as part of their job.)

admitting a problem and a fault is an honest step,
clearly and harshly policing themselves is another,
training is another.

Doctors and lawyers do the same thing.