7 Things Christians Should Know About Torture

[5stringJeff]

Since this has suddenly become a hot topic again.


[E]ven if it is possible to defend torture theoretically, it is far from certain that it can be used justly in practice. Whether it could be contained to the few cases in which it may be justifiable; whether an adequate system of accountability could be set in place to prevent abuses; whether the interrogator is capable of extracting the information with the least coercion necessary (without turning quickly to torture because it is deemed to be justified); and whether it is possible to know for certain that the suspect indeed has relevant information; these are but a few concerns.

http://www.canonandculture.com/7-things-christians-should-know-about-torture/

[revelarts]

Good article.

I've asked Christians to show me where in the Bible where God said that someone needed to be tortured. Or that it was OK torture if your life might be threatened.
The reply is usually silence.
the only place i know of in scripture where anything LIKE torture is commanded is in the old testament where Flogging is allowed as punishment. but even then they are told not to use more that 40 strokes for any violation but...
Deuteronomy 25:2
"...but the judge must not impose more than forty lashes. If the guilty party is flogged more than that, your fellow Israelite will be degraded in your eyes."


Punished but not so much that they become dehumanized "in YOUR eyes" one could say.
And the other point is it's PUNISHMENT, not a way to supposedly get information.

Nothing like the "enhanced interrogation" is commanded or condoned in Scripture.
Personally I can't imagine a prayer to Jesus like "Lord help me with this waterboarding and beating the info out of this filthy Muslim animal, amen."
I've never understood why some Christians can embrace these practices.
Or even make it a matter of debate. What is there to debate or think about? Is it a scriptural practice yes or no? If so then someone should be able to show it to us. If not then we can't support it.
Like abortion and homosexuality it's sin to torture people to try to make them do what you want.
In a war killing or capturing is allowed but inhuman treatment is not.

I did have one person actually reply that God allows spanking and that's a form of physical coercion.
I asked if it's OK for the school to waterboard your children then or you?

We know it's torture. we know it's wrong and ungodly.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Good article.

I've asked Christians to show me where in the Bible where God said that someone needed to be tortured. Or that it was OK torture if your life might be threatened.
The reply is usually silence.
the only place i know of in scripture where anything LIKE torture is commanded is in the old testament where Flogging is allowed as punishment. but even then they are told not to use more that 40 strokes for any violation but...
Deuteronomy 25:2
"...but the judge must not impose more than forty lashes. If the guilty party is flogged more than that, your fellow Israelite will be degraded in your eyes."


Punished but not so much that they become dehumanized "in YOUR eyes" one could say.
And the other point is it's PUNISHMENT, not a way to supposedly get information.

Nothing like the "enhanced interrogation" is commanded or condoned in Scripture.
Personally I can't imagine a prayer to Jesus like "Lord help me with this waterboarding and beating the info out of this filthy Muslim animal, amen."
I've never understood why some Christians can embrace these practices.
Or even make it a matter of debate. What is there to debate or think about? Is it a scriptural practice yes or no? If so then someone should be able to show it to us. If not then we can't support it.
Like abortion and homosexuality it's sin to torture people to try to make them do what you want.
In a war killing or capturing is allowed but inhuman treatment is not.

I did have one person actually reply that God allows spanking and that's a form of physical coercion.
I asked if it's OK for the school to waterboard your children then or you?

We know it's torture. we know it's wrong and ungodly.

Rev, I must point out that our government is not a theocracy. Our nations laws may be based upon Judeo-Christian principles but
foreign affairs, our military and how to conduct the defense of this nation are not based upon biblical teachings.

You now have the same asshats(lib/dem/leftists) that are solidly anti-Christian spouting out biblical reasons we must not engage in any form of torture. Yet dare we(conservatives) ever quote biblical scripture/morals to support any of our political views they vehemently spit on it!! Pure hypocrisy for a lib/dem/leftists to then try to use biblical teachings in this matter as they reject it on all other.
We are a Representative Republic not a pure democracy as that's mob rule. -Tyr

[fj1200]

^We get to choose when to be Christian? :dunno: I don't think that's in the bible.

Nice strawman though, dismissing Christians against torture by railing against non-Christians against torture. :rolleyes:

[revelarts]

Rev, I must point out that our government is not a theocracy. Our nations laws may be based upon Judeo-Christian principles but
foreign affairs, our military and how to conduct the defense of this nation are not based upon biblical teachings.

You now have the same asshats(lib/dem/leftists) that are solidly anti-Christian spouting out biblical reasons we must not engage in any form of torture. Yet dare we(conservatives) ever quote biblical scripture/morals to support any of our political views they vehemently spit on it!! Pure hypocrisy for a lib/dem/leftists to then try to use biblical teachings in this matter as they reject it on all other.
We are a Representative Republic not a pure democracy as that's mob rule. -Tyr
What the left does is their own problem, they have to stand before God for their own actions.

But historically and now
many Christians established and stand for freedom of religion now because it is scriptural and Godly.
we stand against abortion because it's ungodly and for good reason
we stand against homosexuality because it's ungodly and for good reason
many stood against slavery because it's ungodly and for good reason

these things and others we bring to the political table in this country.
the rules of war that we've had for 200+ years reflect scriptural principals.
torture is NOT include tyr. period.

show it to me in the scripture. Revenge is not a scriptural idea. Torture to deliver from one day maybe attacks is not a scriptural idea.
Justice is, punishment is.
Not calling groups or races animals. Not emotional unhinged payback.

Christian concepts and morals are a part of our laws and help guide our national conduct in peace and war, always have been. the morals of the west are rooted in the Bible we have no other to fall back on. with out them we only have relativism which mean ANYTHING we do is fine.
we as a country have never believed that.

here's a quote from an old general

Should any American Soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any Canadian or Indian, in his Person or Property, I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary Punishment as the Enormity of the Crime may require. Should it extend to Death itself it will not be disproportional to its Guilt at such a Time and in such a Cause: But I hope and trust, that the brave Men who have voluntarily engaged in this Expedition, will be governed by far different Views. that Order, Discipline and Regularity of Behaviour will be as conspicuous, as their Courage and Valour. I also give it in Charge to you to avoid all Disrespect to or Contempt of the Religion of the Country and its Ceremonies. Prudence, Policy, and a true Christian Spirit, will lead us to look with Compassion upon their Errors without insulting them. While we are contending for our own Liberty, we should be very cautious of violating the Rights of Conscience in others, ever considering that God alone is the Judge of the Hearts of Men, and to him only in this Case, they are answerable. Upon the whole, Sir, I beg you to inculcate upon the Officers and Soldiers, the Necessity of preserving the strictest Order during their March through Canada; to represent to them the Shame, Disgrace and Ruin to themselves and Country, if they should by their Conduct, turn the Hearts of our Brethren in Canada against us. And on the other Hand, the Honours and Rewards which await them, if by their Prudence and good Behaviour, they conciliate the Affections of the Canadians and Indians, to the great Interests of America, and convert those favorable Dispositions they have shewn into a lasting Union and Affection. Thus wishing you and the Officers and Soldiers under your Command, all Honour, Safety and Success, I remain Sir, etc.

George Washington

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

^We get to choose when to be Christian? :dunno: I don't think that's in the bible.

Nice strawman though, dismissing Christians against torture by railing against non-Christians against torture. :rolleyes:

Are you that damn dense?

I spoke of the government and how it does not get to be a theocracy. How the asshats rail against the government and any form of Christianity seeping in but when they can use biblical teaching to rail against torture they readily use it. All the while denouncing and hating Christians and the bible. Rank hypocrisy ..
My comments were not a sermon on how to be a good Christian.
Anybody spitting out a strawman it would be you attempting to do so now. :laugh:-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

many Christians established and stand for freedom of religion now because it is scriptural and Godly.
we stand against abortion because it's ungodly and for good reason
we stand against homosexuality because it's ungodly and for good reason
many stood against slavery because it's ungodly and for good reason

these things and others we bring to the political table in this country.
the rules of war that we've had for 200+ years reflect scriptural principals.
torture is NOT include tyr. period.

show it to me in the scripture. Revenge is not a scriptural idea.
Justice is, punishment is.
Not calling groups or races animals. Not emotional unhinged payback.

Christian concepts and morals are a part of our laws and help guide our national conduct in peace and war, always have been. the morals of the west are rooted in the Bible we have no other to fall back on. with out them we only have relativism which mean ANYTHING we do is fine.
we as a country have never believed that.

here's a quote from an old general

Again-- WE ARE NOT A THEOCRACY.
Unless we become one , this using biblical teachings to try to stop an action based upon gathering key information by way of torture
is folly and the allowance of biblical use to form a key military strategy in this one case while doing so in others cases is forbidden.
Its total bullshit Rev..
I reject the entire premise. I reject the "ungodly hate the bible asshats' using it to their advantage when its convenient for them to do so.
Especially when the same dumbasses hate it and issue absolute ridicule of it when conservatives attempt to justify their views using Christian moral teachings--especially when these same dumbasses insist none of it be allowed in our schools , etc..-Tyr

[revelarts]

Again-- WE ARE NOT A THEOCRACY.
Unless we become one , this using biblical teachings to try to stop an action based upon gathering key information by way of torture
is folly and the allowance of biblical use to form a key military strategy in this one case while doing so in others cases is forbidden.
Its total bullshit Rev..
I reject the entire premise. I reject the "ungodly hate the bible asshats' using it to their advantage when its convenient for them to do so.
Especially when the same dumbasses hate it and issue absolute ridicule of it when conservatives attempt to justify their views using Christian moral teachings--especially when these same dumbasses insist none of it be allowed in our schools , etc..-Tyr

Are you for legal abortion Tyr?
Are you for legalizing homosexual marriage?
Are you for legal Euthanasia?

[red state]

Are you for legal abortion Tyr?
Are you for legalizing homosexual marriage?
Are you for legal Euthanasia?

Apples and oranges, Rev, the difference between apples and oranges is as obvious as our discussing American citizens and the ENEMY *(which is the cult of iSLU). As for drones killing American Citizens......I'm not for that any more than I'm for our torturing BUT personally, I'm all for getting the scum (any way possible). I'm just not sure we, as a Nation, should be doing it. I'd PERSONALLY like to heap those such as birddoll (or whatever tha SOB's name is) on an ant mound and watch him squirm but I don't want to see our NATION do that. My NATION is better than I so I expect more from the USA than I'd expect from the likes of me. Still, I think VERY highly of Allen West for performing his duties that may be ILLEGAL. It inevitably save his men and that's a GOOD thing.

[fj1200]

Rank hypocrisy ..


Are you for legal abortion Tyr?
Are you for legalizing homosexual marriage?
Are you for legal Euthanasia?

Zing!

/thread

Rev drops the mic.

http://static.squarespace.com/static/537d38c8e4b0c3338dfb9e50/t/53aaf79ce4b0bb20b96b2d24/1403713455045/MicDrop.gif

[jimnyc]

Maybe Christians shouldn't join the CIA or military special forces? I'm not saying it's right or wrong... But the military and spy agencies are not religious institutions and vice versa. I don't expect them to live up to my religious values. Being a Christian doesn't mean you can't have a mighty force behind you, or that you cannot deploy certain tactics that help you win wars/battles. Or even use banned techniques in order to gain the upper hand and save lives. If our agencies and military were to be 100% Christians, we would likely be trying to talk our way into peace, and we wouldn't be as mighty as we stand today. War is hell.

I'm fairly confident that it's not very Christian like to shoot a guy in the face that peeks around a corner either. Probably not Christian like to drop 500lb bombs literally incinerating folks while killing dozens. Or shooting a missile into a crowd of dozens and watching their body parts scatter in the air. Or shooting a sniper rifle from a mile away only to see red mist.

Does the bible give out a free pass for those killing, so long as within the rules? But lean towards hell for those that may torture?

[red state]

Jim, I believe that MOST of our Military have always been predominantly CHRISTIAN (regular or commando....private or general). Our cemeteries all around the world are testimony to this fact (as well as those who fought and died in the REVOLUTIONARY WAR as well as the War Between The States. It is a given that many are roughians or backslidden Christians but still identify as CHRISTIANS.

Liberals refuse to remind us of CHRIST's so-called un-Christ-like actions when He over turned the tables at the temple.....but he did and so have WE when the time calls for sending bombs, missiles or that well-aimed sniper bullet from a good ole SOUTHERN boy who ranked so high as a marksmen when he ENTERED the military that they simply had to use him as a sniper. Doesn't mean that he's a Christian....just means that he is there to SAVE lives. Yes.....despite the views of libs, bombs and bullets actually SAVE lives.

[red state]

It is also the libs who believe that Christians shouldn't teach, run for office or even VOTE because of OUR deep convictions.....but we will be damned if we are not allowed to do so when it was WE who started this Nation and kept it for so long.

[jimnyc]

Jim, I believe that MOST of our Military have always been predominantly CHRISTIAN (regular or commando....private or general). Our cemeteries all around the world are testimony to this fact (as well as those who fought and died in the REVOLUTIONARY WAR as well as the War Between The States. It is a given that many are roughians or backslidden Christians but still identify as CHRISTIANS.

Liberals refuse to remind us of CHRIST's so-called un-Christ-like actions when He over turned the tables at the temple.....but he did and so have WE when the time calls for sending bombs, missiles or that well-aimed sniper bullet from a good ole SOUTHERN boy who ranked so high as a marksmen when he ENTERED the military that they simply had to use him as a sniper. Doesn't mean that he's a Christian....just means that he is there to SAVE lives. Yes.....despite the views of libs, bombs and bullets actually SAVE lives.

Oh, I know, I'm just curious why Christians should be SO concerned about torturing and leaving someone alive - but apparently A-OK to blow that same place into smithereens and leave him for vulture food! I fully understand the idea that we should be better than our enemy, and I'm not fully denying that. But at the end of the day. the number one priority should be winning the war and surviving. And while shooting an enemy coming forth saves lives, and dropping a bomb saves lives - torture can and has saved lives as well. If they were yanking out fingernails and slowly slicing heads off over a 7 hour period, I would feel bad. But this torture scares the fuck out of them but leaves them alive. And that scary shit has saved American lives.

[red state]

Good article.

I've asked Christians to show me where in the Bible where God said that someone needed to be tortured. Or that it was OK torture if your life might be threatened.
The reply is usually silence.
the only place i know of in scripture where anything LIKE torture is commanded is in the old testament where Flogging is allowed as punishment. but even then they are told not to use more that 40 strokes for any violation but...
Deuteronomy 25:2
"...but the judge must not impose more than forty lashes. If the guilty party is flogged more than that, your fellow Israelite will be degraded in your eyes."


Punished but not so much that they become dehumanized "in YOUR eyes" one could say.
And the other point is it's PUNISHMENT, not a way to supposedly get information.

Nothing like the "enhanced interrogation" is commanded or condoned in Scripture.
Personally I can't imagine a prayer to Jesus like "Lord help me with this waterboarding and beating the info out of this filthy Muslim animal, amen."
I've never understood why some Christians can embrace these practices.
Or even make it a matter of debate. What is there to debate or think about? Is it a scriptural practice yes or no? If so then someone should be able to show it to us. If not then we can't support it.
Like abortion and homosexuality it's sin to torture people to try to make them do what you want.
In a war killing or capturing is allowed but inhuman treatment is not.

I did have one person actually reply that God allows spanking and that's a form of physical coercion.
I asked if it's OK for the school to waterboard your children then or you?

We know it's torture. we know it's wrong and ungodly.

So, REV, where, exactly, do you stand on the torture of spanking? As long as it doesn't cripple the child or cause blood to run, I'm fine with bruising their lil' behind. Heck, my mom has gotten blood out of me with a switch on a number of occasions but some of our BEST have come from house holds just like the one my mom RAN with an iron rod. What say you.....

[red state]

Oh, I know, I'm just curious why Christians should be SO concerned about torturing and leaving someone alive - but apparently A-OK to blow that same place into smithereens and leave him for vulture food! I fully understand the idea that we should be better than our enemy, and I'm not fully denying that. But at the end of the day. the number one priority should be winning the war and surviving. And while shooting an enemy coming forth saves lives, and dropping a bomb saves lives - torture can and has saved lives as well. If they were yanking out fingernails and slowly slicing heads off over a 7 hour period, I would feel bad. But this torture scares the fuck out of them but leaves them alive. And that scary shit has saved American lives.

I couldn't agree more and knew where you stand. It is, however, a thin line when sending drones to kill "innocent till proven guilty" Americans. Now if it is in the heat of battle, I'm all for it but to strike OFFENSIVELY an untried American is un-Constitutional. As I've said before, I'm all for the lower of us (like me) doing what Allen West done to save lives......I'm just not OK with AMERICA or the powers that be getting used to the idea. HA!!! Anyway, I still say that it is OK to put our enemy SCUM through the SAME crap we put our BEST through (and that's just our BEST's training). Of course, that'd be torture to the libs (which is why most in our military are NOT whinny lil' libs).

[red state]

Jim, this is off-topic to some degree BUT: why are WE so concerned with nominating someone who may possibly be TOO CONSERVATIVE when 'THEY' are not concerned at all with nominating and electing someone who is WAY TOO LIBERAL? This backs what I believe was your argument or point.

[revelarts]

So, REV, where, exactly, do you stand on the torture of spanking? As long as it doesn't cripple the child or cause blood to run, I'm fine with bruising their lil' behind. Heck, my mom has gotten blood out of me with a switch on a number of occasions but some of our BEST have come from house holds just like the one my mom RAN with an iron rod. What say you.....

Spanking is Ok in the Bible but like the 40 stokes rule for punishing criminals, it's to done for a purpose and not to much so that it drives children to frustration. Or serious harm.

Drawing blood is seems a bit much to me. my father never had to draw blood to get us strait.
But it's no crime to spank your own children for their discipline. Not out of parental anger, revenge or frustration.

But um.. last i check terrorist weren't anyone's children here though. so it probably wouldn't apply.



Apples and oranges, Rev, the difference between apples and oranges is as obvious as our discussing American citizens and the ENEMY *(which is the cult of iSLU). As for drones killing American Citizens......I'm not for that any more than I'm for our torturing BUT personally, I'm all for getting the scum (any way possible). I'm just not sure we, as a Nation, should be doing it. I'd PERSONALLY like to heap those such as birddoll (or whatever tha SOB's name is) on an ant mound and watch him squirm but I don't want to see our NATION do that. My NATION is better than I so I expect more from the USA than I'd expect from the likes of me. Still, I think VERY highly of Allen West for performing his duties that may be ILLEGAL. It inevitably save his men and that's a GOOD thing.

Apples and oranges?

so you mean we stop being Christians when we fight a war or go overseas?
no that doesn't work RS.

so do Christians in China get to torture YOU because your not Chinese? it doesn't work.

the thing is Christian ideals are the TRUTH, not an American truth for Americans. Whatever country we live in we still have certain standards that apply despite the law. In the US we've had the opportunity to effect the laws.
INCLUDING the rules of engagement in war.

War is NOT a thing Christians should instigate it's only a last resort for Defense.
there's nothing of Christians conquest of nations and occupying nations and attacking nation that look at us funny that you can get from the Bible.
but you can find defending yourself and your family from attack. and Punishing enemies, but not TORTURING enemeis

but G louise man why is this even a discussion?!
many of you are old enough to remember the cold war.
One of the things we CLAIMED made us free and better than the GODLESS commies was WE DIDN'T TORTURE like they did. because we are a Free Christian country. See "IN GOD WE TRUST" is on our money even. We're free, prosperous,fair, just and Christian. "God Bless America!!!!"
Now Christians want to say we HAVE TO torture because they do. really?
what kinda brainwashing has gone on to bring us here. Can we dare trust God enough NOT to torture? Do you think we can muddle though without torture? or does God need that kinda help to save us?

I just don't get it, I really don't.

[red states rule]

http://politicaldemotivation.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/oops-waterboarding.jpg?w=655

[revelarts]

RSR, Pelosi can go to jail to.

[red state]

Spanking is Ok in the Bible but like the 40 stokes rule for punishing criminals, it's to done for a purpose and not to much so that it drives children to frustration. Or serious harm.

Drawing blood is seems a bit much to me. my father never had to draw blood to get us strait.
But it's no crime to spank your own children for their discipline. Not out of parental anger, revenge or frustration.

But um.. last i check terrorist weren't anyone's children here though. so it probably wouldn't apply.




Apples and oranges?

so you mean we stop being Christians when we fight a war or go overseas?
no that doesn't work RS.

so do Christians in China get to torture YOU because your not Chinese? it doesn't work.

the thing is Christian ideals are the TRUTH, not an American truth for Americans. Whatever country we live in we still have certain standards that apply despite the law. In the US we've had the opportunity to effect the laws.
INCLUDING the rules of engagement in war.

War is NOT a thing Christians should instigate it's only a last resort for Defense.
there's nothing of Christians conquest of nations and occupying nations and attacking nation that look at us funny that you can get from the Bible.
but you can find defending yourself and your family from attack. and Punishing enemies, but not TORTURING enemeis

but G louise man why is this even a discussion?!
many of you are old enough to remember the cold war.
One of the things we CLAIMED made us free and better than the GODLESS commies was WE DIDN'T TORTURE like they did. because we are a Free Christian country. See "IN GOD WE TRUST" is on our money even. We're free, prosperous,fair, just and Christian. "God Bless America!!!!"
Now Christians want to say we HAVE TO torture because they do. really?
what kinda brainwashing has gone on to bring us here. Can we dare trust God enough NOT to torture? Do you think we can muddle though without torture? or does God need that kinda help to save us?

I just don't get it, I really don't.

I agree that anger and frustration should never be a part of discipline

I don't agree that we should conduct ourselves out of reasons of responding to aggression. Again, Christ was not acting DEFENSIVELY when He 'attacked' the swindlers at the temple. If we are Christians (aka CHRIST-like) we have no need to only act defensively either. If that is your definition of Chistianity.....I suppose I'm bound for Hell cuz I've always allowed the REBEL in me to lash out. I know the ole Devil was the first rebel but I'm not going to stand by and allow someone to 'tread on me'. Of course, one could argue whether our founders were defense or offense. I like to think of them as BOTH.

In closing, REV, as a guy who is not foreign to fights (street or organized fighting) I realize the sometimes the best defense is an excellent offense. It would serve us all well to remember that and stop allowing the libs to tie an arm behind our back.

Sorry I haven't the time to respond in more detail. As it stands, we will have to agree to disagree on much of this (as we normally do) but I am ALWAYS appreciative our your posts

[Jeff]

Maybe if it was actually torture I would agree with some of this, but the bible also tells us to put our coat of Armour on to fight evil and I don't see nothing more evil than these terrorist around right now.

[revelarts]

Maybe if it was actually torture I would agree with some of this, but the bible also tells us to put our coat of Armour on to fight evil and I don't see nothing more evil than these terrorist around right now.
was it torture during the inquisition Jeff?

[Jeff]

was it torture during the inquisition Jeff?

No Rev, if you are talking of water boarding, lack of sleep and loud music, no sir I don't think so. We had troops in Nam that where tortured ( no need to go into it you know exactly what I am talking about ) I understand what you are saying but this was put out only because of the trouncing the Dems took and should be a non subject, this wa hashed out how many different times now ?

[red state]

I'm gonna pull a "jafar" on this one and say that the inquisition and other so-called "Christian" atrocities, were NOT from REAL Christians. It was from power hungry scum (like the muSLUMS). In those days, those involved with the inquisitions not only tortured those who dared to defy those wicked men but they also turned their aggression on those like me (Baptists). I've studied this history in great detail and if a Catholic got out of line, they'd have had no problem placing him/her on the rack either.

Look, they were part of the very group who tried to keep the Bible from the average Joe and YES, what they did was torture cuz they did harm and death to their victims who did NOTHING but defy them or shed light on their corruption. Our torture of the evil scum we know as muSLUM terrorists, is after they have shot or blew up innocent people.

Rev, this is for you cuz I had hoped you would address it or provide a rebuttal but (AGAIN), I do not consider torture to be something LESS than what our service men and women go through (especially the special forces). I believe you mentioned a few dying as a result of water boarding but have you looked into how many S.E.A.L.S in training have died while being forced to go in and under for very long periods of time (with weights and in cold, Cold, COLD water)?

[red state]

No Rev, if you are talking of water boarding, lack of sleep and loud music, no sir I don't think so. We had troops in Nam that where tortured ( no need to go into it you know exactly what I am talking about ) I understand what you are saying but this was put out only because of the trouncing the Dems took and should be a non subject, this wa hashed out how many different times now ?

:clap::clap::clap:........Maybe one more......:clap:.

[red state]

Jeff, if we didn't provide a soccer field, air conditioning or a prayer rug......do you think that would be torture? Ha!!!!

A lil' off topic but: yeah, we've gone a long way from the times that their were road gangs here in the South and since then, we've seen a rise in crime. Of course, much of this rise in crime of today is due to liberal mindsets that brought us illegal border invaders and with them, an increase in both drugs and unemployment crisis.

Back on topic......if we would bring back the work camps and road chain gangs we'd see a decline in crime. Likewise, if we'd issue punishment to these muSLUM criminals (NOT SOLDIERS) we'd have less of them to deal with. Shoot them or give them a chance to give up their leaders, plans and training camps for the possibility of some form of amnesty or at least some form of leniency.

I say put the SOB's up in a camp more like the Japs or Germans.......many of those camps had X amount of food which was more of a SLOP (not muSLUM food) and they definitely had no Air Conditioning and many got mosquito based diseases. That is much better than what the muSLUM terrorist should get but they certainly shouldn't get to play soccer or pray on their lil' rugs. We've gone mad and I believe REV needs to re-evaluate the facts......starting with the fact that these scum are NOT soldiers. They are WAR CRIMINALS (aka terrorists).

Does anyone here at DP fault Allen West for what he did? I'd like to know who cuz Allen DID save his men when he threw away his career.

[revelarts]

No Rev, if you are talking of water boarding, ... I don't think so.

Was waterboarding in the inquisition torture? yes or no simple question.
For centuries everyone called it exactly that. If it's not that now, why not Jeff?


I don't like the country thinking that we "need" torture to save us.
But I think it adds to the horror to use euphemisms to make it seems like it's less than it is.

Like people being upset when you call abortion, murder.
I get tired of the soft sells to make people feel better about what they promote.

[hjmick]

I'm not a Christian and I only need to know two things about torture...




It's wrong and unjustifiable.

[red state]

Torture:

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608041806127105485&pid=15.1&P=0

Unjustifiably unacceptable

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608033314987117303&pid=15.1&P=0

Brought to you courtesy of:

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608002945266222905&pid=15.1&P=0

[revelarts]

Torture:

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608041806127105485&pid=15.1&P=0

Unjustifiably unacceptable

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608033314987117303&pid=15.1&P=0

Brought to you courtesy of:

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608002945266222905&pid=15.1&P=0

I'd have to say that this is apples and oranges RS.
All Volunteers, am i right?

if the terrorist volunteer i have nooo problem.
But we don't need torture to get info and we can't get info if they're dead from BS torture.

I just want to add. just because i don't think we should torture doesn't mean i don't think they deserve it.
I think pedophiles should have ALL their balls n chain removed. but i wouldn't try to push that into law for real. execution , swift and sure yes but the other that'd be wrong.
what i "feel" and what's right or best don't always align. but we should all be mature enough to do whats right rather than what 'feels' right.

[aboutime]

I'd have to say that this is apples and oranges RS.
All Volunteers, am i right?

if the terrorist volunteer i have nooo problem.
But we don't need torture to get info and we can't get info if they're dead from BS torture.

I just want to add. just because i don't think we should torture doesn't mean i don't think they deserve it.
I think pedophiles should have ALL their balls n chain removed. but i wouldn't try to push that into law for real. execution , swift and sure yes but the other that'd be wrong.
what i "feel" and what's right or best don't always align. but we should all be mature enough to do whats right rather than what 'feels' right.


rev. Terrorists who want to kill people like you, and me, only volunteer to wear EXPLOSIVE VESTS, to convince appeasers like you how wonderful they are...spreading themselves all over the place for ALLAH.

[LongTermGuy]

`Liberals live in 'Fluffy Pink Bunny Land', where everybody is really good underneath and all you have to do is give them enough cups of tea to get them to reveal their good side and forget all their extremist views.... leftists are total hypocrites who scream against torturing terrorists but then DEMANDED that Michael Vick be tortured in the most horrible way possible....

`Why do the `Left leaning` thinkers want and demand to `make the rules of war`?

**The liberals as usual want to `coddle the terrorist`s as they now coddle criminals while innocent people die.


****....We are being made war to. It's an unconventional war from a stealth and unscrupulous foe that `follows no rule`....Therefore...we are justified to use every means at our disposal to `win` this war.....

*If `your son or daughter` was held by Muslim terrorists and about to be be-headed with a dull-knife.....wouldn't you want everything done that can possibly be done to find their location and a chance to be saved?

**Liberals are never satisfied with the current level of power they have gained over the lives of individuals. They are compelled, internally driven to control every thought and detail of human activity and they will never stop until they have condemned the entire world to live in a hellish slave camp, under the heel of a socialist bureaucratic boot otherwise known as One World Government.....

*Liberals are obsessed with demonstrating their putative "moral superiority." Thus even though they live their lives without really helping anyone.....the political activism they engage in is dedicated to convincing themselves that they are `truly good people`.....

Liberals are driven by the need to validate the unspoken assertion that "I care more than you do" .....Liberals only oppose `violence` when it fits their agenda...but they are perfectly willing to use violence in any way to advance their agenda...

[Drummond]

I'd have to say that this is apples and oranges RS.
All Volunteers, am i right?

if the terrorist volunteer i have nooo problem.
But we don't need torture to get info and we can't get info if they're dead from BS torture.

I just want to add. just because i don't think we should torture doesn't mean i don't think they deserve it.
I think pedophiles should have ALL their balls n chain removed. but i wouldn't try to push that into law for real. execution , swift and sure yes but the other that'd be wrong.
what i "feel" and what's right or best don't always align. but we should all be mature enough to do whats right rather than what 'feels' right.

I invite you to take a line which will make some of what you say here, actually seem credible.

Simply: STOP FIGHTING TOOTH AND NAIL TO FIGHT FOR TERRORISTS' WELFARE !! All you're ultimately doing is showing disrespect to those genuinely decent souls who've suffered and died at the whim of terrorist subhumanity. You talk about what's the 'right' thing to do. Well, isn't it RIGHT to put terrorist victims ABOVE those who make them victims ??

[red state]

rev. Terrorists who want to kill people like you, and me, only volunteer to wear EXPLOSIVE VESTS, to convince appeasers like you how wonderful they are...spreading themselves all over the place for ALLAH.

Now, dad-gum-it, Aboutime.....you sprung my blame trap. I KNEW Rev was gonna take the bate but I was away from my computer while your molested my trap. HA!!! Get your own traps......

Really, I don't mind cuz GREAT minds think alike and you certainly jumped on that one. HA!!!!

__________________________________________________ ____________________


YES, Rev, the muSLUM scum FREELY made their mind up to kill, rape and terrorize the entire world.....so, they can suffer the consequences of our BEST who VOLUNTEER to kick THEIR @$$! That goes for those (such as Allen West and the CIA ops) who saved lives and got that SOB, obl.

[red state]

I invite you to take a line which will make some of what you say here, actually seem credible.

Simply: STOP FIGHTING TOOTH AND NAIL TO FIGHT FOR TERRORISTS' WELFARE !! All you're ultimately doing is showing disrespect to those genuinely decent souls who've suffered and died at the whim of terrorist subhumanity. You talk about what's the 'right' thing to do. Well, isn't it RIGHT to put terrorist victims ABOVE those who make them victims ??

EXACTLY!!! Drummond, except for getting info out of the scum....I'd say treat them like mad, rabid dogs. SHOOT THEM ON SITE and save all the money we've graciously (no, stupidly) spent in prayer rugs, specific meals and soccer fields.

[revelarts]

I invite you to take a line which will make some of what you say here, actually seem credible.

Simply: STOP FIGHTING TOOTH AND NAIL TO FIGHT FOR TERRORISTS' WELFARE !! All you're ultimately doing is showing disrespect to those genuinely decent souls who've suffered and died at the whim of terrorist subhumanity. You talk about what's the 'right' thing to do. Well, isn't it RIGHT to put terrorist victims ABOVE those who make them victims ??

torturing suspect "terrorist" creates more terror Drummond.
General Petraeus states this as well as REAL interrogators.

but you act like you know better Drummond . How the heck is that? your gut?
Sorry i believe you're the one that's dishonoring the victims and by ASS-UMING that torture HELPS and not looking at the facts honestly.

[red state]

But REV, the only way they (the enemy) can KNOW that we are torturing is (IF) they get back to tell the story. They should never get back cuz it is WELL documented that THEY 9 times out of 10 go right back to killing our BEST (after we graciously [no stupidly] let them go).

[red state]

torturing suspect "terrorist" creates more terror Drummond.
General Petraeus states this as well as REAL interrogators.

but you act like you know better Drummond . How the heck is that? your gut?
Sorry i believe you're the one that's dishonoring the victims and by ASS-UMING that torture HELPS and not looking at the facts honestly.

When WEST psychologically tortured that scum, he saved lives......FACT (torture worked that time). FACT!!!!

Look, REV, you're in my list of friends and I absolutely enjoy your posts most of the time (and I hope it stays that way) but you are dead wrong here and we have the facts to prove it. Need I mention the successes that came from so-called torture? OBL was gained through the ole Bush techniques.

[revelarts]

When WEST psychologically tortured that scum, he saved lives......FACT (torture worked that time). FACT!!!!

Look, REV, you're in my list of friends and I absolutely enjoy your posts most of the time (and I hope it stays that way) but you are dead wrong here and we have the facts to prove it. Need I mention the successes that came from so-called torture? OBL was gained through the ole Bush techniques.
(I disagree with freinds all the time no problem on my end RS)
But Are you guys reading my post at all .


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?47979-Another-recycled-liberal-fanatic-lie-quot-Waterboarding-never-produced-any-useful-info-quot&p=717754#post717754

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/...s-torture.html (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/cia-debunks-claims-torture.html)
CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture

Posted on April 8, 2014 (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/cia-debunks-claims-torture.html) by WashingtonsBlog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/author/washingtonsblog)

But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did not help get Bin Laden (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/cia-director-torture-did-not-lead-to-osama-bin-laden.html).
....In 2011, John Brennan agreed (http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/obama-advisor-waterboarding-didnt-lead-to-bin-laden-kill/):
White House deputy national security advisor John Brennan Tuesday knocked down the myth that waterboarding provided crucial intelligence that led to the location of Osama bin Laden.
“So we’ve been talking about the different details and methods that lead up to this moment, and obviously there is word out today that waterboarding played a very big role or role in actually getting the information,” MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski told Brennan. “Is that the case?”
“Not to my knowledge,” Brennan explained.
Brennan is now the current director of the CIA.
Likewise, former secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld – who had a big hand in the torture program (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/04/22/madden) – stated (http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820?s=al&promo_code=C30F-1):
“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Senator Lindsey Graham – a vocal proponent of waterboarding (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lindsey+Graham%22+waterboarding&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)– said (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/senate-intel-chair-torture-did-not-lead-to-bin-laden-in-any-way.php):
This idea we caught bin Laden because of waterboarding I think is a misstatement. This whole concept of how we caught bin Laden is a lot of work over time by different people and putting the puzzle together. I do not believe this is a time to celebrate waterboarding, I believe this is a time to celebrate hard work.
The New York Times noted (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/us/politics/04torture.html):
“The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003,” said Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council. “It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.”
Huffington Post reported (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/04/administration-bin-laden-waterboarding_n_857529.html):
Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), who chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee, produced a 263-page report in 2009 on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody in the years following 9/11. He too dismissed the idea that the interrogation techniques used at that time were efficacious. “If they had any information under the Bush administration that could have led to bin Laden it would have been terribly neglectful for them not to use it,” Levin noted in an interview on the “Bill Press Show.”
The confirmation of the courier’s significance appears to have come in 2004, from an al Qaeda operative who was not waterboarded: Hassan Ghul.
Dan Froomkin argued (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/torture-may-have-slowed-h_n_858642.html) that – rather than helping catch Bin Laden – torture actually delayed by years more effective intelligence-gathering methods which would have resulted in finding Bin Laden:
Defenders of the Bush administration’s interrogation policies have claimed vindication from reports that bin Laden was tracked down in small part due to information received from brutalized detainees some six to eight years ago.
But that sequence of events — even if true — doesn’t demonstrate the effectiveness of torture, these experts say. Rather, it indicates bin Laden could have been caught much earlier had those detainees been interrogated properly.
“I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden,” said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier — information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, “they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us,” Alexander told The Huffington Post.
“We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information,” he said.....

there's more at the 1st link
FACTS!

what's the deal here
torture has a REALLY good PR man, because it's got it's name out there as doing crap it doesn't DO.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Are you for legal abortion Tyr?
Are you for legalizing homosexual marriage?
Are you for legal Euthanasia?
I am not the subject Rev..
Why are you playing this tactic?
This type of replying is as lib as it gets IMHO..
I had thought it beneath you .. Sad, just sad.. --Tyr

[red state]

(I disagree with freinds all the time no problem on my end RS)
But Are you guys reading my post at all .


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?47979-Another-recycled-liberal-fanatic-lie-quot-Waterboarding-never-produced-any-useful-info-quot&p=717754#post717754

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/...s-torture.html (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/cia-debunks-claims-torture.html)
CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture

Posted on April 8, 2014 (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/cia-debunks-claims-torture.html) by WashingtonsBlog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/author/washingtonsblog)

But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did not help get Bin Laden (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/cia-director-torture-did-not-lead-to-osama-bin-laden.html).
....In 2011, John Brennan agreed (http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/obama-advisor-waterboarding-didnt-lead-to-bin-laden-kill/):
White House deputy national security advisor John Brennan Tuesday knocked down the myth that waterboarding provided crucial intelligence that led to the location of Osama bin Laden.
“So we’ve been talking about the different details and methods that lead up to this moment, and obviously there is word out today that waterboarding played a very big role or role in actually getting the information,” MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski told Brennan. “Is that the case?”
“Not to my knowledge,” Brennan explained.
Brennan is now the current director of the CIA.
Likewise, former secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld – who had a big hand in the torture program (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/04/22/madden) – stated (http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820?s=al&promo_code=C30F-1):
“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Senator Lindsey Graham – a vocal proponent of waterboarding (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lindsey+Graham%22+waterboarding&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)– said (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/senate-intel-chair-torture-did-not-lead-to-bin-laden-in-any-way.php):
This idea we caught bin Laden because of waterboarding I think is a misstatement. This whole concept of how we caught bin Laden is a lot of work over time by different people and putting the puzzle together. I do not believe this is a time to celebrate waterboarding, I believe this is a time to celebrate hard work.
The New York Times noted (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/us/politics/04torture.html):
“The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003,” said Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council. “It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.”
Huffington Post reported (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/04/administration-bin-laden-waterboarding_n_857529.html):
Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), who chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee, produced a 263-page report in 2009 on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody in the years following 9/11. He too dismissed the idea that the interrogation techniques used at that time were efficacious. “If they had any information under the Bush administration that could have led to bin Laden it would have been terribly neglectful for them not to use it,” Levin noted in an interview on the “Bill Press Show.”
The confirmation of the courier’s significance appears to have come in 2004, from an al Qaeda operative who was not waterboarded: Hassan Ghul.
Dan Froomkin argued (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/torture-may-have-slowed-h_n_858642.html) that – rather than helping catch Bin Laden – torture actually delayed by years more effective intelligence-gathering methods which would have resulted in finding Bin Laden:
Defenders of the Bush administration’s interrogation policies have claimed vindication from reports that bin Laden was tracked down in small part due to information received from brutalized detainees some six to eight years ago.
But that sequence of events — even if true — doesn’t demonstrate the effectiveness of torture, these experts say. Rather, it indicates bin Laden could have been caught much earlier had those detainees been interrogated properly.
“I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden,” said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier — information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, “they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us,” Alexander told The Huffington Post.
“We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information,” he said.....

there's more at the 1st link
FACTS!

what's the deal here
torture has a REALLY good PR man, because it's got it's name out there as doing crap it doesn't DO.

Rev, I always read your posts.....they are worth the read (most of the time) BUT when you posted the above, I got as far as LEON before I had to respond. If you don't understand where I'm going with that (cuz I've already covered it) then there truly is no reason for me to waste time with lengthy replies and there's certainly no reason to read past what LEON said. I trust him about as much as I trust B.O. Yeah....torture can get one to admit to just about anything BUT our intelligence knows what to ask and if the scum's reply to specific questions is anywhere close to reasonable. Out of 20 lies they may tell while being "tortured", I'll take the 1 out of 20 that saves lives or gets locations of other TOP DOG scum. And YES, it was mostly that Doctor who got obl and we certainly took care of that dr by leaving him high and dry. But it was enhanced interrogation that kept obl on the move and to where we had just about pin-pointed his EXACT local......we simply needed the dr to verify by tricking the ignorant coward (who was not a hero living in the mountains but a porno watching creep living in a bunker/compound like a rat!!!

Again, Allen West 'tortured' a muSLUM and saved his men's lives by sacrificing his career.

[Drummond]

EXACTLY!!! Drummond, except for getting info out of the scum....I'd say treat them like mad, rabid dogs. SHOOT THEM ON SITE and save all the money we've graciously (no, stupidly) spent in prayer rugs, specific meals and soccer fields.:clap::clap::clap::clap:

[revelarts]

I am not the subject Rev..
Why are you playing this tactic?
This type of replying is as lib as it gets IMHO..
I had thought it beneath you .. Sad, just sad.. --Tyr

Tyr you state that you're for harsh treatment of terrorist. so what's the issue with the others?
You say that "we are not a theocracy." so Christian rules don't apply with torture for you.
So does it apply in these other areas?
it's a question of consistency.
what's low or Lib about that Tyr?

We both know that the left is wrong in cynically sighting scripture 1 day and then claiming "separation " the next.
that's not the topic of the thread or the subject of my post here.
we agree that they are hypocrites on various issues.

the thread subject here is Christians and torture.
I simply ask are we consistent?
I don't think we get to point at others before God and say "THEY WERE WORSE"
Grace will cover all of us who call on Him but are we even going to try to be consistent in applying our faith to our political positions on this subject? Does God get a say?

We can't just write out torture as an untouchable.
i have christian friends who are "pro-choice", It makes NO sense to me.
do you think they are consistent? Is that a godly position.
So on the question of torture do we somehow get to give that pass?
There are FAR MORE children killed by abortion ---many literally ripped apart and beheaded--- each year than by terrorist. Yet Christian people aren't saying we should torture abortion docs. we aren't doing much at all in fact. me included.

But somehow we are suppose to fly 1000s of miles to and torture people for in the M.E. mainly because of what been done in the past? And what MIGHT happen one day? And they don't like us?

I call BS on this tyr.

[Drummond]

torturing suspect "terrorist" creates more terror Drummond.

If it isn't publicised (this giving the Left an excuse to rabble-rouse) ... then, how ??

For those hell-bent on publicising such things .. I question their motives. What do they hope would be the consequences, not least to innocent life ?


Sorry i believe you're the one that's dishonoring the victims and by ASS-UMING that torture HELPS and not looking at the facts honestly.

Try to imagine the thoughts of a 9/11 victim, about to plunge to his/her death from one of the Twin Towers. How credible is it that his/her most uppermost thought, most likely hope, would be that the scum who'd been complicit in committing that day's atrocities do NOT endure any suffering because of it ??!??

Revelarts: do not presume to tell me that I am dishonouring those victims !

[revelarts]

look ALL of you can keep asserting that i'm wrong
But IMO you've got no scriptural or moral standing to claim that torture is a Christian option, or even a PRACTICALLY one.

I've said about all i can say, if you'd read some it may make some sense,
but if not show me some BIBLE to correct me in this thread.

In other threads show me some other HISTORY that shows us that waterboarding has not been defined as torture for over 500 years.
Or show me some professional interrogators that say the torture is THE BEST way to get information.

THEN maybe we can talk
But all i've heard so far is stuff like ,

...Rev you love the terrorist, ...
...you're a liberal,...
...you're offense to the victims,...
...navy seals git it worse,...
...terrorist did worse than us...
...admit you hate everyone,...
...the terrorist want to kill you...
...you're an appeaser...
...West shot a gun and it worked one day...
...they are animal scum and don't have rights...
...Pelosi knew all about it too...

then there's the playing on both sides

...it's not even torture...
...I don't care if it's torture...

is that the best you've got to defend it?!! really?!

[revelarts]

Revelarts: do not presume to tell me that I am dishonouring those victims !

Don't presume i am either Drummond.
then we'll treating each other correctly then huh?

[Drummond]

look ALL of you can keep asserting that i'm wrong
But IMO you've got no scriptural or moral standing to claim that torture is a Christian option, or even a PRACTICALLY one.

I've said about all i can say, if you'd read some it may make some sense,
but if not show me some BIBLE to correct me in this thread.

In other threads show me some other HISTORY that shows us that waterboarding has not been defined as torture for over 500 years.
Or show me some professional interrogators that say the torture is THE BEST way to get information.

THEN maybe we can talk
But all i've heard so far is stuff like ,

...Rev you love the terrorist, ...
...you're a liberal,...
...you're offense to the victims,...
...navy seals git it worse,...
...terrorist did worse than us...
...admit you hate everyone,...
...the terrorist want to kill you...
...you're an appeaser...
...West shot a gun and it worked one day...
...they are animal scum and don't have rights...
...Pelosi knew all about it too...

then there's the playing on both sides

...it's not even torture...
...I don't care if it's torture...

is that the best you've got to defend it?!! really?!

However high-minded all of that seems to be, it seems to me that you've not even so much as demonstrated that the terrorists you're discussing are human beings !!

As for the Bible ... show me where it says that you should tolerate, condone, nurture, evil !!

Terrorists know what they plan, know what they want to do. Being implacable enemies, they'll not volunteer the information they have, certainly not 'out of the goodness of their hearts' (!!).

So, what does an interrogator do, to extract any information ? A 'tea and biscuits' approach in a 5-star hotel setting, just isn't going to work !!!

No, you instead do what is likely to force information from the terrorist captive, DESPITE HIMSELF.

Yes ... you do WHAT IS APPROPRIATE AND WORKABLE.

And torture, most certainly of murderous scum, fits the bill ..

Tell me, if you can, that the aforementioned Twin Towers victim definitely would NOT approve ... IF YOU DARE.

[Drummond]

Don't presume i am either Drummond.
then we'll treating each other correctly then huh?

Revelarts, I must be blunt on this.

For as long as you insist upon fighting tooth and nail to support the scum who'd happily perpetrate further 9/11's given the chance, I say that, AT MINIMUM, you are showing disrespect of, disregard to, all those who've been their victims until now. Victims alive or dead. Alive but 'merely' traumatised, or with limbs blown off, disfigurements inflicted that they're forced to live with until they die.

And that's without considering the heartache and other difficulties their loved ones have had to suffer.

You've fought for TERRORIST interests, in this thread, instead. Your caring has been obsessively channelled towards the butchering scum who've caused all of that death and destruction, and who crave to commit more !!

If I were in your position, Revelarts - and of course, I never COULD be - I'd be realising by now just how very wrong I was. My sense of shame would be overwhelming.

But I'll bet yours is absent, and that even now, you're itching to post yet more on behalf of terrorist welfare. Tell me I'm wrong if you can. Tell me, if you can, that victims of terrorism are MORE deserving of sympathy and support that you've spent post after post, arguing for, for MURDEROUS SAVAGES.

Let's see if you can post so much as ONE message on this thread exclusively aimed at support for victims, and nothing else.

Can you ?

I challenge you to do so.

[Jeff]

I'd have to say that this is apples and oranges RS.
All Volunteers, am i right?

if the terrorist volunteer i have nooo problem.
But we don't need torture to get info and we can't get info if they're dead from BS torture.

I just want to add. just because i don't think we should torture doesn't mean i don't think they deserve it.
I think pedophiles should have ALL their balls n chain removed. but i wouldn't try to push that into law for real. execution , swift and sure yes but the other that'd be wrong.
what i "feel" and what's right or best don't always align. but we should all be mature enough to do whats right rather than what 'feels' right.

As far as I am concerned they did volunteer then morning they decided to kill thousands of unarmed citizens.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Tyr you state that you're for harsh treatment of terrorist. so what's the issue with the others?
You say that "we are not a theocracy." so Christian rules don't apply with torture for you.
So does it apply in these other areas?
it's a question of consistency.
what's low or Lib about that Tyr?

We both know that the left is wrong in cynically sighting scripture 1 day and then claiming "separation " the next.
that's not the topic of the thread or the subject of my post here.
we agree that they are hypocrites on various issues.

the thread subject here is Christians and torture.
I simply ask are we consistent?
I don't think we get to point at others before God and say "THEY WERE WORSE"
Grace will cover all of us who call on Him but are we even going to try to be consistent in applying our faith to our political positions on this subject? Does God get a say?

We can't just write out torture as an untouchable.
i have christian friends who are "pro-choice", It makes NO sense to me.
do you think they are consistent? Is that a godly position.
So on the question of torture do we somehow get to give that pass?
There are FAR MORE children killed by abortion ---many literally ripped apart and beheaded--- each year than by terrorist. Yet Christian people aren't saying we should torture abortion docs. we aren't doing much at all in fact. me included.

But somehow we are suppose to fly 1000s of miles to and torture people for in the M.E. mainly because of what been done in the past? And what MIGHT happen one day? And they don't like us?

I call BS on this tyr.

You miss my point entirely. My point is that we do not have a Christian government so scriptures do not apply.
The BS is people now suddenly trying to use scripture in this case when in al others they spit on biblical scripture.
That's the bullshit my friend. I say it has no relevant point and has none because our government makes policy not on biblical principles..
All this and the main thing they call torture is water boarding--stupidity on parade IMHO.
Hell, we train our Special Forces on how to endure water boarding and does that mean we are torturing our own men? Get real.
Its unpleasant as hell but so is being locked in a cell as a prisoner--so are we next going to label that torture too? -TYR

[revelarts]

Revelarts, I must be blunt on this.

For as long as you insist upon fighting tooth and nail to support the scum who'd happily perpetrate further 9/11's given the chance, I say that, AT MINIMUM, you are showing disrespect of, disregard to, all those who've been their victims until now. Victims alive or dead. Alive but 'merely' traumatised, or with limbs blown off, disfigurements inflicted that they're forced to live with until they die.

And that's without considering the heartache and other difficulties their loved ones have had to suffer.

You've fought for TERRORIST interests, in this thread, instead. Your caring has been obsessively channelled towards the butchering scum who've caused all of that death and destruction, and who crave to commit more !!

If I were in your position, Revelarts - and of course, I never COULD be - I'd be realising by now just how very wrong I was. My sense of shame would be overwhelming.

But I'll bet yours is absent, and that even now, you're itching to post yet more on behalf of terrorist welfare. Tell me I'm wrong if you can. Tell me, if you can, that victims of terrorism are MORE deserving of sympathy and support that you've spent post after post, arguing for, for MURDEROUS SAVAGES.

Let's see if you can post so much as ONE message on this thread exclusively aimed at support for victims, and nothing else.

Can you ?

I challenge you to do so.
if you'd read my post you'd already see my support for the victims.

But Drumond if this is you position i'll be compelled to reply to you as well.
AT MINIMUM, you are showing disrespect of, disregard to, all those who've been their victims until now.
and you're inviting more terror and perpetual war.

don't bold back to me any outrage when you refuse to acknowledge ANY of the statements of military Generals, interrogators and military men in the feild that have CLEARLY denounced Torture as WRONG and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

[tailfins]

However high-minded all of that seems to be, it seems to me that you've not even so much as demonstrated that the terrorists you're discussing are human beings !!

As for the Bible ... show me where it says that you should tolerate, condone, nurture, evil !!

Proper Christian doctrine says all they need to do is repent. Having said that, I recognize that we are at war with the Jihadists and victory needs to be the focus.


Psalm 103:11-12King James Version (KJV)11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

[Drummond]

Revelarts - I posted this challenge to you:


Let's see if you can post so much as ONE message on this thread exclusively aimed at support for victims, and nothing else.

Can you ?

I challenge you to do so.

THIS is your reply ! >>


if you'd read my post you'd already see my support for the victims.

But Drumond if this is you position i'll have I reply to you as well.
AT MINIMUM, you are showing disrespect of, disregard to, all those who've been their victims until now.
and you're inviting more terror and perpetual war.

don't bold back to me any outrage when you refuse to acknowledge ANY of the statements of military Generals, interrogators and military men in the feild that have CLEARLY denounced Torture as WRONG and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

... so there it is. You've failed to meet the challenge I set you, as I knew you would. That is as clear as day ! You just couldn't help but add qualifying remarks in furtherance of your pro-terrorist agenda. COULD YOU ?

I tell you, Revelarts, I could never be capable of doing what you're doing. MY sympathy for the victims is unsullied by seeing terrorist scum through rose-coloured glasses. It's likewise uncontaminated by a need to in ANY way, no matter how indirectly, serve the interests of those who turned them into victims !!!!!!!!!!

Revelarts - I don't have the words for you. I just don't. You clearly have NO shame whatever. If you did, I could say 'SHAME ON YOU' and it'd actually mean something ....

[red state]

KEY POINTS:

#1. THEY are not SOLDIERS....nor are they US Citizens; they are WAR CRIMINALS (animals, barbarians, thieves, rapists and bottom of the barrel SOB's). They behead......we keep them from sleeping plus get a little water in their nose. Big deal. Our soldiers train under worse conditions.

#2. We inflict on them that which has nothing to do with whippings, nail/teeth pulling, breaking of bones/skin or placing them on ant beds.

#3. So-called "torture" has worked and I don't care if it works only 10% of the time....I'll take that percentage over NOT saving our men 0% of the time or keeping the AMERICAN public SAFE.

#4. They should be shot on the spot in my opinion and I'd gladly order that pill *(IF) so-called torture or info extraction didn't work *which it does and has.

The libs and pretend conservatives REV used to back his claim about "torture" not working is flawed because those guys characters are greatly flawed. Besides, THEY have no problem in sending drones to KILL but have a problem with our extracting info?! REALLY. That is the double standard that I detest and is the reason I read REV's post about LEON and Bush's lil' minions stating falsehoods. West proved that "torture" worked and so did the ops who got "Shake" to spill the beans about the 12 airlines that were targeted (among other things).

That, my dear friend, is the bottom line -------------------------------------------------------

[Drummond]

Proper Christian doctrine says all they need to do is repent. Having said that, I recognize that we are at war with the Jihadists and victory needs to be the focus.


Psalm 103:11-12King James Version (KJV)

11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

Yes -- but --- surely, in repenting, those thinking and meaning evil would be turning their backs on all that !!!

So it seems to me that my point not only stands, but if anything you've supported it.

Tell me, do you see the most miniscule sign of repentance from the terrorists we're discussing ? Any from Al Qaeda, or ISIS ?

[Drummond]

KEY POINTS:

#1. THEY are not SOLDIERS....nor are they US Citizens; they are WAR CRIMINALS (animals, barbarians, thieves, rapists and bottom of the barrel SOB's). They behead......we keep them from sleeping plus get a little water in their nose. Big deal. Our soldiers train under worse conditions.

#2. We inflict on them that which has nothing to do with whippings, nail/teeth pulling, breaking of bones/skin or placing them on ant beds.

#3. So-called "torture" has worked and I don't care if it works only 10% of the time....I'll take that percentage over NOT saving our men 0% of the time or keeping the AMERICAN public SAFE.

#4. They should be shot on the spot in my opinion and I'd gladly order that pill *(IF) so-called torture or info extraction didn't work *which it does and has.

The libs and pretend conservatives REV used to back his claim about "torture" not working is flawed because those guys characters are greatly flawed. Besides, THEY have no problem in sending drones to KILL but have a problem with our extracting info?! REALLY. That is the double standard that I detest and is the reason I read REV's post about LEON and Bush's lil' minions stating falsehoods. West proved that "torture" worked and so did the ops who got "Shake" to spill the beans about the 12 airlines that were targeted (among other things).

That, my dear friend, is the bottom line -------------------------------------------------------

WELL SAID !!

The PC I'm using won't permit me to add any 'smilies' ... otherwise, you'd have a row of 'clapping' ones in place of this text .....

[revelarts]

Revelarts - I posted this challenge to you:



THIS is your reply ! >>



... so there it is. You've failed to meet the challenge I set you, as I knew you would. That is as clear as day ! You just couldn't help but add qualifying remarks in furtherance of your pro-terrorist agenda. COULD YOU ?

I tell you, Revelarts, I could never be capable of doing what you're doing. MY sympathy for the victims is unsullied by seeing terrorist scum through rose-coloured glasses. It's likewise uncontaminated by a need to in ANY way, no matter how indirectly, serve the interests of those who turned them into victims !!!!!!!!!!

Revelarts - I don't have the words for you. I just don't. You clearly have NO shame whatever. If you did, I could say 'SHAME ON YOU' and it'd actually mean something ....

Drummond I'm sorry but it seems you fail to understand English
You read into others words your own fantasies and refuse to comprehend your own blindness. Even when given words from the military you say you support so much you can't even bare to acknowledge the existence of a different view less your fantasy world slip.


Drummond i'll leave you to your cowboys and aliens fantasy world.

[Drummond]

Drummond leave you to your cowboys and aliens fantasy world

-- Indeed ?

Which of us is the more likely to promote incredible conspiracy theory stuff, and to push for its acceptance on page after page of posting ??


Drummond I'm sorry but it seems you fail to understand English
You read into others words your own fantasies and refuse to comprehend your own blindness. Even when given words from the military you say you support so much you can't even bare to acknowledge the existence of a different view less your fantasy world slip.

Support doesn't cease to be what it is, because of its source. If you have 'exalted' people peddling your line, I don't care WHO or WHAT they are ... they and their views don't achieve 'infallibility' status on the back of it !

Subhuman enemies are just that. They cannot earn 'human' status from doing SUBhuman things ! To then - for no good reason WHATEVER - insist they've earned 'human rights' is not only an outrageous nonsense, but massively insulting to those they've bombed, disfigured, KILLED, etc ...

Frankly, I'd be more inclined to grant' human status to a hornet's nest than I would to Islamic terrorists. Since when did those insects bomb, terrorise, fly planes into buildings, and behead people ??

No. If anyone is living in a fantasy world, it's you. Terrorist actions do NOT merit the incomprehensible reward of preferential, kindly treatment on the basis of their imagined so-called HUMANITY !!!

[tailfins]

Yes -- but --- surely, in repenting, those thinking and meaning evil would be turning their backs on all that !!!

So it seems to me that my point not only stands, but if anything you've supported it.

Tell me, do you see the most miniscule sign of repentance from the terrorists we're discussing ? Any from Al Qaeda, or ISIS ?

I reject your premise that they are not human. My perspective is the same reason I support the death penalty: There's a zero recidivism rate. This needs to treated as a job to be done, not as retribution. Taking human life is sometimes necessary, but there shouldn't be any joy in it.

[Drummond]

I reject your premise that they are not human. My perspective is the same reason I support the death penalty: There's a zero recidivism rate. This needs to treated as a job to be done, not as retribution.

Job to be done, retribution ... either works for me. Or, both simultaneously.

As for whether they're human ... there, we sharply disagree. I'll simply limit myself to asking you to prove to me that those terrorists we're discussing are human.

I say you can't do it. Prove me wrong if you can !

[tailfins]

Job to be done, retribution ... either works for me. Or, both simultaneously.

As for whether they're human ... there, we sharply disagree. I'll simply limit myself to asking you to prove to me that those terrorists we're discussing are human.

I say you can't do it. Prove me wrong if you can !

Simple: Take a DNA sample.

[Drummond]

Simple: Take a DNA sample.

.... 'proving' comparable genetic structure. Organic building blocks, if you like. DNA is not a human being, however.

Grind some sausages into a shapeless pulp. Then take samples from a complete sausage, and from the pulp. The biological and chemical structure of each would be identical. But, one would be a sausage ... the other, provably NOT a sausage.

So your argument doesn't help, I'm afraid. DNA is not, of itself, a human being. Argument refuted.

Try again.

[tailfins]

.... 'proving' comparable genetic structure. Organic building blocks, if you like. DNA is not a human being, however.

Grind some sausages into a shapeless pulp. Then take samples from a complete sausage, and from the pulp. The biological and chemical structure of each would be identical. But, one would be a sausage ... the other, provably NOT a sausage.

So your argument doesn't help, I'm afraid. DNA is not, of itself, a human being. Argument refuted.

Try again.

Rather than second guessing those who work to protect our nation, how about just saying "Thank you"?

[Drummond]

Rather than second guessing those who work to protect our nation, how about just saying "Thank you"?

I take it that you've conceded my argument, as you've offered nothing further to try and combat it. Are we now agreed that terrorists are NOT human ?

As for your current post ... those who work to protect your nation (remember, it isn't MY nation) are best served by not denying themselves some of the means by which they do so.

I include in that WHATEVER interrogation techniques stand ANY chance of getting ANYTHING useful. And I include in it a proper, realistic, assessment of exactly WHAT the enemy truly IS so that one can properly assess its capabilities.

Comforting political correctness regimes, followed for no other reason than 'it feels good' to do so, are utterly useless in that act of protection. Surely this is all totally obvious. If those 'working to protect your nation' wilfully blind themselves to realities and so stymie their fullest effectiveness, why would I thank them for doing so ?

[tailfins]

I take it that you've conceded my argument, as you've offered nothing further to try and combat it. Are we now agreed that terrorists are NOT human ?

As for your current post ... those who work to protect your nation (remember, it isn't MY nation) are best served by not denying themselves some of the means by which they do so.

I include in that WHATEVER interrogation techniques stand ANY chance of getting ANYTHING useful. And I include in it a proper, realistic, assessment of exactly WHAT the enemy truly IS so that one can properly assess its capabilities.

Comforting political correctness regimes, followed for no other reason than 'it feels good' to do so, are utterly useless in that act of protection. Surely this is all totally obvious. If those 'working to protect your nation' wilfully blind themselves to realities and so stymie their fullest effectiveness, why would I thank them for doing so ?

Even the enemy is human. You won't like my point of view because it views YOU as less important. Those charged with protecting US lives and interests have a first priority to protect Americans. Americans come first; allies come second; non-allies third; non-combatant people from enemy powers fourth; the enemy fifth. Dismantling threats to US interests must be done. We get the job done and make a reasonable effort to minimize brutality on our part. Extreme interrogation may be justified if it involves many innocent lives being in danger.

[Drummond]

Even the enemy is human.

So you keep saying .. but I've still, yet, to see any proof of it. If you've any to offer, by all means, do.


You won't like my point of view because it views YOU as less important.

Wrong. Consideration of how important 'I' am is irrelevant. In fact, until you started commenting on that, it hadn't crossed my mind to care, one way or the other.


Those charged with protecting US lives and interests have a first priority to protect Americans.

... which they should always do, to the very best of their ability. That means taking advantage of all available options.


Americans come first; allies come second; non-allies third; non-combatant people from enemy powers fourth; the enemy fifth.

I can't fault that. Happy to agree.


Dismantling threats to US interests must be done.

Couldn't agree more. This includes NOT doing so with one hand tied behind your back, for example.


We get the job done and make a reasonable effort to minimize brutality on our part.

For as long as you can reasonably afford such an approach, this is reasonable. As for whether this CONTINUES to be an affordable approach ... that may be another matter entirely.


Extreme interrogation may be justified if it involves many innocent lives being in danger.

Correction: IS justified.

Consider this -- what if a terrorist captive knows of a threat to innocent lives which the interrogator is unaware of, and can only be alerted to it if 'extreme' methods are more standardised than before?

Think about that. That could be a scenario in which doing less than 'the max' as accepted routine, ends up being ITS OWN threat to innocent life.

[jimnyc]

Still, no one has told me, why if it's wrong to waterboard someone and leave them alive - why is it just fine to shoot someone in the face and end their life? Blow them up with a missile? Have them step on military ordinances? Blow them into 99 pieces from a tank shell? Stick a bayonet into their throat if your gun fails? Shoot and obliterate men running from a building where there is a terrorist meeting?

Why whip out the religion card solely over waterboarding? Does religion or the bible somewhere make a distinction between killing people in horrific manners and/or torturing someone and leaving them alive?

[jimnyc]

(I disagree with freinds all the time no problem on my end RS)
But Are you guys reading my post at all .


http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?47979-Another-recycled-liberal-fanatic-lie-quot-Waterboarding-never-produced-any-useful-info-quot&p=717754#post717754

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/...s-torture.html (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/cia-debunks-claims-torture.html)
CIA Debunks Its Own Claims About Torture

Posted on April 8, 2014 (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/04/cia-debunks-claims-torture.html) by WashingtonsBlog (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/author/washingtonsblog)

But former CIA director Leon Panetta said that torture did not help get Bin Laden (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/cia-director-torture-did-not-lead-to-osama-bin-laden.html).
....In 2011, John Brennan agreed (http://www.rawstory.com/rawreplay/2011/05/obama-advisor-waterboarding-didnt-lead-to-bin-laden-kill/):
White House deputy national security advisor John Brennan Tuesday knocked down the myth that waterboarding provided crucial intelligence that led to the location of Osama bin Laden.
“So we’ve been talking about the different details and methods that lead up to this moment, and obviously there is word out today that waterboarding played a very big role or role in actually getting the information,” MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski told Brennan. “Is that the case?”
“Not to my knowledge,” Brennan explained.
Brennan is now the current director of the CIA.
Likewise, former secretary of defense Donald Rumsfeld – who had a big hand in the torture program (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/04/22/madden) – stated (http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820?s=al&promo_code=C30F-1):
“The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Senator Lindsey Graham – a vocal proponent of waterboarding (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Lindsey+Graham%22+waterboarding&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)– said (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/senate-intel-chair-torture-did-not-lead-to-bin-laden-in-any-way.php):
This idea we caught bin Laden because of waterboarding I think is a misstatement. This whole concept of how we caught bin Laden is a lot of work over time by different people and putting the puzzle together. I do not believe this is a time to celebrate waterboarding, I believe this is a time to celebrate hard work.
The New York Times noted (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/04/us/politics/04torture.html):
“The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003,” said Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council. “It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.”
Huffington Post reported (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/04/administration-bin-laden-waterboarding_n_857529.html):
Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), who chairs the Senate Armed Services Committee, produced a 263-page report in 2009 on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody in the years following 9/11. He too dismissed the idea that the interrogation techniques used at that time were efficacious. “If they had any information under the Bush administration that could have led to bin Laden it would have been terribly neglectful for them not to use it,” Levin noted in an interview on the “Bill Press Show.”
The confirmation of the courier’s significance appears to have come in 2004, from an al Qaeda operative who was not waterboarded: Hassan Ghul.
Dan Froomkin argued (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/06/torture-may-have-slowed-h_n_858642.html) that – rather than helping catch Bin Laden – torture actually delayed by years more effective intelligence-gathering methods which would have resulted in finding Bin Laden:
Defenders of the Bush administration’s interrogation policies have claimed vindication from reports that bin Laden was tracked down in small part due to information received from brutalized detainees some six to eight years ago.
But that sequence of events — even if true — doesn’t demonstrate the effectiveness of torture, these experts say. Rather, it indicates bin Laden could have been caught much earlier had those detainees been interrogated properly.
“I think that without a doubt, torture and enhanced interrogation techniques slowed down the hunt for bin Laden,” said an Air Force interrogator who goes by the pseudonym Matthew Alexander and located Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, in 2006.
It now appears likely that several detainees had information about a key al Qaeda courier — information that might have led authorities directly to bin Laden years ago. But subjected to physical and psychological brutality, “they gave us the bare minimum amount of information they could get away with to get the pain to stop, or to mislead us,” Alexander told The Huffington Post.
“We know that they didn’t give us everything, because they didn’t provide the real name, or the location, or somebody else who would know that information,” he said.....

there's more at the 1st link
FACTS!

what's the deal here
torture has a REALLY good PR man, because it's got it's name out there as doing crap it doesn't DO.

If Panetta is to be believed, we should also listen to these words:

Ex-CIA officials say torture report is one-sided, flawed

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A group of former top-ranking CIA officials disputed a U.S. Senate committee's finding that the agency's interrogation techniques produced no valuable intelligence, saying such work had saved thousands of lives.

Former CIA directors George Tenet, Porter Goss and Michael Hayden, along with three ex-deputy directors, wrote in an op-ed article published on Wednesday in the Wall Street Journal that the Senate Intelligence Committee report also was wrong in saying the agency had been deceptive about its work following the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

"The committee has given us ... a one-sided study marred by errors of fact and interpretation - essentially a poorly done and partisan attack on the agency that has done the most to protect America after the 9/11 attacks," they said.

The report concluded the CIA failed to disrupt any subsequent plots despite torturing captives during the presidency of George W. Bush.

But the former CIA officials said the United States never would have tracked down and killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011 without information acquired in the interrogation program. Their methods also led to the capture of ranking al Qaeda operatives, provided valuable information about the organization and saved thousands of lives by disrupting al Qaeda plots, including one for an attack on the U.S. West Coast that could have been similar to the Sept. 11 attacks.

[tailfins]

Still, no one has told me, why if it's wrong to waterboard someone and leave them alive - why is it just fine to shoot someone in the face and end their life? Blow them up with a missile? Have them step on military ordinances? Blow them into 99 pieces from a tank shell? Stick a bayonet into their throat if your gun fails? Shoot and obliterate men running from a building where there is a terrorist meeting?

Why whip out the religion card solely over waterboarding? Does religion or the bible somewhere make a distinction between killing people in horrific manners and/or torturing someone and leaving them alive?

Consider David and Goliath. Killing is justified to win a just war. The defining factor is that life has value. Saving NET lives should be the measure. Self defense and unintentional collateral deaths also come into play.

[jimnyc]

Consider David and Goliath. Killing is justified to win a just war. The defining factor is that life has value. Saving NET lives should be the measure. Self defense and unintentional collateral deaths also come into play.

There is no "self defense" in war. You enter into such conflicts to KILL the other guy. Unintentional and collateral - not sure either is very Christian like, even if mistakes. War is hell, and full of death.

[Kathianne]

There is no "self defense" in war. You enter into such conflicts to KILL the other guy. Unintentional and collateral - not sure either is very Christian like, even if mistakes. War is hell, and full of death.

Exactly. It's the reason it should always be on the table, but always the last resort after all reasonable diplomatic efforts have failed.

It's also important to having folks in place that can hold the arguments needed. I was a bit surprised to see the Bob Kerry reaction to partisan folly the day the report was to be released. Similarly a tad shocked that John Kerry said the report shouldn't be released now, with all the unrest currently ongoing.

[revelarts]

It's been held up a few years already.
Can anyone tell me the better time for it to be released is/was?

[jimnyc]

It's been held up a few years already.
Can anyone tell me the better time for it to be released is/was?

Not sure what specifically you're asking?

But let me ask you... You seem to think torture is against Christian values and such. Are the other things I pointed out Christian like? Blowing off heads with massive guns? Tank shells blowing people into tiny pieces? Shooting someone through his eye socket and have it come out and blow off the rear of his head? Red mist from a .50 cal into the head? What about killing like 50-100 people at once, basically incinerating them with mammoth sized bombs?

What I'm getting at is - it seems like religion is being mixed with war. And that somehow actions within war need to fit into Christian values. I just don't get it. Are Christians supposed to feel good about avoiding torture techniques and then blowing people up instead? I think the "Christian card" is being used here about torture - but it's seemingly not brought up about even more evil acts that leave a person a hell of a lot worse off.

So are we going to condemn ALL actions that harm a person, as not Christian like as well? Or do we pick out just one thing and declare it off limits because it's not very Christian like? It seems rather hypocritical.

[revelarts]

Not sure what specifically you're asking?

But let me ask you... ,
no wait a minute

People are saying "it's a bad time to release the report" or "the Ds released it now only because --fill in the blank-- purpose."

the question is,
When would have been a good or better time to release the report. if not now then when?

it's already been held up for years.
when would be a better time?
right before mid term elections or after Christmas, Obama's Birthday? Bush's birthday? 4th of July when?

[jimnyc]

no wait a minute

People are saying "it's a bad time to release the report" or "the Ds released it now only because --fill in the blank-- purpose."

the question is,
When would have been a good or better time to release the report. if not now then when?

it's already been held up for years.
when would be a better time?
right before mid term elections or after Christmas, Obama's Birthday? Bush's birthday? 4th of July when?

About a good time once you answer my question, which I've asked like 4 times now? You disapprove of waterboarding and leaving someone alive - but you think it's aok when someone has their eye shot out? You don't take issue when a tank incinerates a carload of the enemy? Or is.50 cal to the head what we read in the bible? WHat about dropping a missile on a building and shooting arms and legs of our enemy into the air? Also good for Christians? So long as it's not torture. Christians are cool with the killing? Where do I get this Christian guide which dictates which killings are OK and which are sins? Do you think God takes issue with us using certain interrogation techniques but has no issue if we blow up 30 people with a missile?

[jimnyc]

no wait a minute

People are saying "it's a bad time to release the report" or "the Ds released it now only because --fill in the blank-- purpose."

the question is,
When would have been a good or better time to release the report. if not now then when?

it's already been held up for years.
when would be a better time?
right before mid term elections or after Christmas, Obama's Birthday? Bush's birthday? 4th of July when?

And I'll answer, even though you'll likely dodge again....

The good time to release reports is when ALL the truth is given and all the FACTS are gained. Releasing it right after an election, obviously without all the facts and truth? Not the best time.

[revelarts]

And I'll answer, even though you'll likely dodge again....

The good time to release reports is when ALL the truth is given and all the FACTS are gained. Releasing it right after an election, obviously without all the facts and truth? Not the best time.

Ok but all the facts? like God like knowledge? Or all the reports are in that give a honest picture and all the facts are available to answer any loose questions?

Frankly AN honest partial picture is fine By me as well.

[jimnyc]

Ok but all the facts? like God like knowledge? Or all the reports are in that give a honest picture and all the facts are available to answer any loose questions?

Frankly AN honest partial picture is fine By me as well.

For starters - how about they actually interview EVERYONE and use ALL the facts prior to releasing ANY information? Did the 6 guys I mentioned give different reports, and then change their minds the next day? Odd that directors and deputies needed to go public with their own words. Some might find that a little odd, that such high importance people in the CIA needed to do an end around in order to get involved in the released report.

[jimnyc]

So I've answered what you wanted of me, Rev. Are you now going to answer why it is Christian like to kill people in some of the most horrific manners ever imaginable - but against Christian values if you waterboard someone and leave him alive?

[hjmick]

Torture:

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608041806127105485&pid=15.1&P=0

Unjustifiably unacceptable

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608033314987117303&pid=15.1&P=0

Brought to you courtesy of:

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608002945266222905&pid=15.1&P=0


There's a difference between torture and training...

Though that may not be obvious to those in training...

[revelarts]

....
But let me ask you... You seem to think torture is against Christian values and such. Are the other things I pointed out Christian like? Blowing off heads with massive guns? Tank shells blowing people into tiny pieces? Shooting someone through his eye socket and have it come out and blow off the rear of his head? Red mist from a .50 cal into the head? What about killing like 50-100 people at once, basically incinerating them with mammoth sized bombs?

What I'm getting at is - it seems like religion is being mixed with war. And that somehow actions within war need to fit into Christian values. I just don't get it. Are Christians supposed to feel good about avoiding torture techniques and then blowing people up instead? I think the "Christian card" is being used here about torture - but it's seemingly not brought up about even more evil acts that leave a person a hell of a lot worse off.

So are we going to condemn ALL actions that harm a person, as not Christian like as well? Or do we pick out just one thing and declare it off limits because it's not very Christian like? It seems rather hypocritical.

War is a terrible thing and there are many Christians that do not believe it's something they can participate in at all.
the Amish, Mennonites, and a few other denominations have that as part of their basic doctrine.
But most other denominations don't go that far. and over the centuries have discussed the "just war" idea.

you seem to be be saying that having person in a cell and beating them daily is not as bad a blowing there heads off in a running battle.
if that's the way you want to narrowly frame it then of course both are equally bad.
but IMO you need to broaden the view to get a more honest question on the table.

1st of all most Christians teach no AGGRESSIVE WAR. period.
Some say "you can't just be defensive" , really?

If someone is making weapons and threatening you you've got a choice. Prepare and be ready to attack in an instant , learn as much as you can of the enemy's plans and be ready to COUNTER strike if needed.
Or you can sucKer punch ..that is ATTACK.
while people may think it's a better strategy to attack 1st, it's NOT christian.
Similar to what i mentioned in the other thread, i'm not sure i could factually argue that defense is a tactically better,
but it is Christan.
And since i believe God honors those that honor him it doesn't matter what the hell the other person has or attempts 1st they are going down. or God wanted us to take a beating.

concerning killing in war. If they strike 1st it's on.
Primary targets being military, it's equipment and leadership. Making every effort to avoid civilians.

Concerning the warfare itself, bombing, 50 cals nuke etc.
you make it sound as if ancient warfare was sweet by comparison.
would you prefer your head blown off by a 50 cal OR an ax through your collar bone?
A bomb on your factory or a hot oil poured on your face over the city wall?
an arrow through the eye that doesn't penetrate and then 3 guys with short swords taking turns making sure your dead?
Or your legs blown off from a land mine?
Back Then there was no 1st aid to speak of, no rehab, no pension, no pain killers but weak alcohol, no disinfectants,

6 or half dozen. war is hell no matter what era.

God commanded the Jews to fight in various situations.
the goal to Kill and or capture. Not torture.
often the loosing parties were released to live as usually just pay taxes to the winners.
The Jews were never told to harass captives to get info. often they made deals with people from the enemy camps, Safety from the coming attack for info and silence.

But the wars they fought they killed by every means of the day.
sword, spear, stone, arrows, hand to hand, fire, water. none of it pretty.
but only enough to get the job done. then looking for peace with ALL "round about"
not looking for the next enemy that's might get us one day maybe.
And not looking for some form or perfect security where there's no chance of attack.
security comes from God

that's it to the best of my understanding.

Not sure if that answers your question or not but you know i don't dodge.

[aboutime]

War is a terrible thing and there are many Christians that do not believe it's something they can participate in at all.
the Amish, Mennonites, and a few other denominations have that as part of their basic doctrine.
But most other denominations don't go that far. and over the centuries have discussed the "just war" idea.

you seem to be be saying that having person in a cell and beating them daily is not as bad a blowing there heads off in a running battle.
if that's the way you want to narrowly frame it then of course both are equally bad.
but IMO you need to broaden the view to get a more honest question on the table.

1st of all most Christians teach no AGGRESSIVE WAR. period.
Some say "you can't just be defensive" , really?

If someone is making weapons and threatening you you've got a choice. Prepare and be ready to attack in an instant , learn as much as you can of the enemy's plans and be ready to COUNTER strike if needed.
Or you can sucKer punch ..that is ATTACK.
while people may think it's a better strategy to attack 1st, it's NOT christian.
Similar to what i mentioned in the other thread, i'm not sure i could factually argue that defense is a tactically better,
but it is Christan.
And since i believe God honors those that honor him it doesn't matter what the hell the other person has or attempts 1st they are going down. or God wanted us to take a beating.

concerning killing in war. If they strike 1st it's on.
Primary targets being military, it's equipment and leadership. Making every effort to avoid civilians.

Concerning the warfare itself, bombing, 50 cals nuke etc.
you make it sound as if ancient warfare was sweet by comparison.
would you prefer your head blown off by a 50 cal OR an ax through your collar bone?
A bomb on your factory or a hot oil poured on your face over the city wall?
an arrow through the eye that doesn't penetrate and then 3 guys with short swords taking turns making sure your dead?
Or your legs blown off from a land mine?
Back Then there was no 1st aid to speak of, no rehab, no pension, no pain killers but weak alcohol, no disinfectants,

6 or half dozen. war is hell no matter what era.

God commanded the Jews to fight in various situations.
the goal to Kill and or capture. Not torture.
often the loosing parties were released to live as usually just pay taxes to the winners.
The Jews were never told to harass captives to get info. often they made deals with people from the enemy camps, Safety from the coming attack for info and silence.

But the wars they fought they killed by every means of the day.
sword, spear, stone, arrows, hand to hand, fire, water. none of it pretty.
but only enough to get the job done. then looking for peace with ALL "round about"
not looking for the next enemy that's might get us one day maybe.
And not looking for some form or perfect security where there's no chance of attack.
security comes from God

that's it to the best of my understanding.

Not sure if that answers your question or not but you know i don't dodge.



rev. Just forget all of that tripe above. Open up your home, and offer the enemies of America safe haven in your home until...they decide you have become useless to them, and they happily thank you by beheading you, and every member of your family. Their way of Returning the Favor of your stupidity.

[tailfins]

There is no "self defense" in war. You enter into such conflicts to KILL the other guy. Unintentional and collateral - not sure either is very Christian like, even if mistakes. War is hell, and full of death.

Tell that to the Polish that resisted NAZI Germany. The war against Islamic terrorists is a war of self-defense.

[red state]

.... 'proving' comparable genetic structure. Organic building blocks, if you like. DNA is not a human being, however.

Grind some sausages into a shapeless pulp. Then take samples from a complete sausage, and from the pulp. The biological and chemical structure of each would be identical. But, one would be a sausage ... the other, provably NOT a sausage.

So your argument doesn't help, I'm afraid. DNA is not, of itself, a human being. Argument refuted.

Try again.

Exactly! A similar principle is that a man can impregnate a woman but that does NOT make him a FATHER. The genetics could be the same but it is the character, integrity and strength, just to name a few attributes, that makes a FATHER a FATHER and not some 'male' punk who is no more than a mating animal.

[red state]

rev. Just forget all of that tripe above. Open up your home, and offer the enemies of America safe haven in your home until...they decide you have become useless to them, and they happily thank you by beheading you, and every member of your family. Their way of Returning the Favor of your stupidity.


Aboutime, not to mention that REV consistently refuses to address the AGGRESSIVE, "sucker punch" if you will, that Christ laid on the temple merchants. They were SHOCKED at Jesus' actions....as should be our enemies. Shock & Awe.

The "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" goes both ways. I would hope that (IF) I became a mad, rabid dog, someone would shoot me or (IF) I somehow became brainwashed into the cult of iSLUM, I'd hope the good guys would be smart enough to get info out of me to save the lives of those who are MUCH better people than the person I had become by following iSLUM. That would be my hope right now if I ever went over to the Dark Side.

Do unto me as I'd hope to be treated if I were a part of the evil cult causing pain and suffering all over the world.

[red state]

Tell that to the Polish that resisted NAZI Germany. The war against Islamic terrorists is a war of self-defense.

Sir, I may need to remind you that if we had thought that way in the 1940's.....much of the world (and possible the USA) would be speaking German or used as a lamp shades right now. The USA may have stood against them THEN but the world would have fallen. Today, I'm almost certain the Germans would win given our weak leadership and the nature of our average male citizen.

Bottom Line: I'm a Christian BUT if I see trouble and/or misconduct from a punk leading to or possibly leading to my being threatened......I'm gonna pass the first punch or PULL my equalizer. GRANTED! Especially these days!!! Only a fool would wait and since the Amish and others have been brought up (REV I THINK)...........what a bunch of fools. Don't even go there, Rev. Ye Ole King of Merry Ole England should have sent that bunch to the New World and the Brits would still own this yard! Don't go there.

[revelarts]

... address the AGGRESSIVE, "sucker punch" if you will, that Christ laid on the temple merchants. They were SHOCKED at Jesus' actions....as should be our enemies. Shock & Awe....



So are you saying that Since Jesus (God in the flesh) blind sided the merchants in the temple (God's House), turning over their stuff, Sucker punched them by hitting them with a ropes and yelled at them to get out of my House as the Law commanded .
That that shows that the US gov't has a right to kill people in the M.E. anytime and start wars with nations at peace with us whenever we want if we think they are bad people or... neo-people?

Is that what you're saying ?
you honestly think God wants us to do that?

[aboutime]

Aboutime, not to mention that REV consistently refuses to address the AGGRESSIVE, "sucker punch" if you will, that Christ laid on the temple merchants. They were SHOCKED at Jesus' actions....as should be our enemies. Shock & Awe.

The "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" goes both ways. I would hope that (IF) I became a mad, rabid dog, someone would shoot me or (IF) I somehow became brainwashed into the cult of iSLUM, I'd hope the good guys would be smart enough to get info out of me to save the lives of those who are MUCH better people than the person I had become by following iSLUM. That would be my hope right now if I ever went over to the Dark Side.

Do unto me as I'd hope to be treated if I were a part of the evil cult causing pain and suffering all over the world.


Take note. As I do. How rev no longer responds to anything I post here. That's how the TRUTH exposes those who rely on, and believe only their OWN Lies.

[Drummond]

Sir, I may need to remind you that if we had thought that way in the 1940's.....much of the world (and possible the USA) would be speaking German or used as a lamp shades right now. The USA may have stood against them THEN but the world would have fallen. Today, I'm almost certain the Germans would win given our weak leadership and the nature of our average male citizen.

Bottom Line: I'm a Christian BUT if I see trouble and/or misconduct from a punk leading to or possibly leading to my being threatened......I'm gonna pass the first punch or PULL my equalizer. GRANTED! Especially these days!!! Only a fool would wait and since the Amish and others have been brought up (REV I THINK)...........what a bunch of fools. Don't even go there, Rev. Ye Ole King of Merry Ole England should have sent that bunch to the New World and the Brits would still own this yard! Don't go there.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I can finally post some smilies !!

You beat me to it .. reviewing this thread, I was preparing a similar reply when I saw the above post.

I fully agree on the WWII example. Besides, they say 'attack is the best form of defence', and I consider that to be true. There must be any number of historical, and even contemporary, examples where its necessity is obvious.

For example: take Iran's holocaustal threats against Israel, and the single-mindedness of Iran in building the capability to make good on those threats. Even now, Iran is playing for time to complete that capability !! Who, here, thinks it's Israel's moral duty to wait to be nuked (!!!), before they take action against the power working so hard to do it ???

So, no. You take any and all actions to defend against an aggressor. Those terrorist captives we've been discussing are aggressors, capable of any subhumanity any of us can imagine (and probably more that we can't !!). To put 'their human welfare' above defensive need, by limiting the range of interrogation methods available, is just ... utter madness.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I reject your premise that they are not human. My perspective is the same reason I support the death penalty: There's a zero recidivism rate. This needs to treated as a job to be done, not as retribution. Taking human life is sometimes necessary, but there shouldn't be any joy in it.

I have not seen where he expressed joy in the act of defending our nations against the Islamic menace. He certainly expresses dedication, determination and a firm grasp on reality, matched with a ton of common sense. Are they sub-human?
Yes they are. They are brainwashed into abandoning all that makes us human as they serve a murdering cultish ideology.
Thus they are no longer human while operating in that state.Tyr

[red state]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:I can finally post some smilies !!You beat me to it .. reviewing this thread, I was preparing a similar reply when I saw the above post.I fully agree on the WWII example. Besides, they say 'attack is the best form of defense', and I consider that to be true. There must be any number of historical, and even contemporary, examples where its necessity is obvious.For example: take Iran's holocaustal threats against Israel, and the single-mindedness of Iran in building the capability to make good on those threats. Even now, Iran is playing for time to complete that capability !! Who, here, thinks it's Israel's moral duty to wait to be nuked (!!!), before they take action against the power working so hard to do it ???So, no. You take any and all actions to defend against an aggressor. Those terrorist captives we've been discussing are aggressors, capable of any subhumanity any of us can imagine (and probably more that we can't !!). To put 'their human welfare' above defensive need, by limiting the range of interrogation methods available, is just ... utter madness.How right your are, DRUMMOND and great minds think alike. Yes, its UTTER MADNESS! And to my reply regarding REV's question; Do I believe we should jump on a "peaceful nations" just because they have much evil within their borders? YEP, if they can't control what is threatening us within their borders, WE SHOULD JUMP ON (FULL THROTTLE) I was all for Iraq, Afgan but not the way our leaders did it. I still say it was a big mistake for B.O. to pull out.....just as it was a big mistake to send troops door to door. Heck, I am just about to the conclusion that another American/Mexican war is at hand if they can't control their Northern border. They have no trouble controlling their Southern Border.......so long as you pay them money or sexual favors. So put that EXTREME thought in your pipe and smoke on it for a while. We'd kick their @$$ BIG TIME and could reverse some of their covert plans to take back 30% or more of the USA to boot. Yeah, I said it........most of THEM believe we stole this land from them and they've been planning for YEARS and YEARS to take it back (covertly as our liberal losers started doing in the 60's). Only problem is that they, the muSLUMs and the Mexicans aren't doing so so terribly COVERT these days. Obama has encouraged MUCH openly displayed threats as we have seen in Florida and now in Ferguson. Keep a base out in the middle of nowhere (that is OUR taken and kept land) and keep a big portion of the kuwait shore lines (I still remember those punks living it up in discos while I men liberated THEM from Sadam). WE still have bases in Germany, Korea and Japan for pete's sake.....why shouldn't we give those strategic locals up as well......huh, REV? Are you saying that we shouldn't have "JUMPED IN" to attack a peaceful nation that only wanted their fair share of FRANCE and other nations of WWII? Come on guy.....check your "reality checker" to make sure it is still working. And for pete's sake......respond to AT. You both are WELL worth quoting and responding to.

[Drummond]

How right your are, DRUMMOND and great minds think alike. Yes, its UTTER MADNESS! And to my reply regarding REV's question; Do I believe we should jump on a "peaceful nations" just because they have much evil within their borders? YEP, if they can't control what is threatening us within their borders, WE SHOULD JUMP ON (FULL THROTTLE) I was all for Iraq, Afgan but not the way our leaders did it. I still say it was a big mistake for B.O. to pull out.....just as it was a big mistake to send troops door to door. Heck, I am just about to the conclusion that another American/Mexican war is at hand if they can't control their Northern border. They have no trouble controlling their Southern Border.......so long as you pay them money or sexual favors. So put that EXTREME thought in your pipe and smoke on it for a while. We'd kick their @$$ BIG TIME and could reverse some of their covert plans to take back 30% or more of the USA to boot. Yeah, I said it........most of THEM believe we stole this land from them and they've been planning for YEARS and YEARS to take it back (covertly as our liberal losers started doing in the 60's). Only problem is that they, the muSLUMs and the Mexicans aren't doing so so terribly COVERT these days. Obama has encouraged MUCH openly displayed threats as we have seen in Florida and now in Ferguson. Keep a base out in the middle of nowhere (that is OUR taken and kept land) and keep a big portion of the kuwait shore lines (I still remember those punks living it up in discos while I men liberated THEM from Sadam). WE still have bases in Germany, Korea and Japan for pete's sake.....why shouldn't we give those strategic locals up as well......huh, REV? Are you saying that we shouldn't have "JUMPED IN" to attack a peaceful nation that only wanted their fair share of FRANCE and other nations of WWII? Come on guy.....check your "reality checker" to make sure it is still working. And for pete's sake......respond to AT. You both are WELL worth quoting and responding to.

Well said.

To take one obvious example of workable culpability: should Pakistan have been consequence-free after having bin Laden and his people occupy a compound (NOT an insignificant-sized building !) in that country, and for YEARS ??

You know, if everyone got used to the reality that harbouring terrorists automatically meant that harsh action would follow, you'd find yourselves in an altogether easier position.

[Kathianne]

Well said.

To take one obvious example of workable culpability: should Pakistan have been consequence-free after having bin Laden and his people occupy a compound (NOT an insignificant-sized building !) in that country, and for YEARS ??

You know, if everyone got used to the reality that harbouring terrorists automatically meant that harsh action would follow, you'd find yourselves in an altogether easier position.

I agree and that's where Bush and Blair were correct. Obama and others undermined the 'harbor terrorists' threat.

[fj1200]

Well, isn't it RIGHT to put terrorist victims ABOVE those who make them victims ??

Fallacy. All humans have the same rights, terrorists will/should soon be in prison.

[fj1200]

Revelarts: do not presume to tell me that I am dishonouring those victims !

Then do not presume to speak for all.

[Drummond]

All humans have the same rights

I think I agree.


terrorists will/should soon be in prison.

Your rather abrupt change of subject is not understood.

Besides, you're assuming that terrorists MUST be imprisoned. Why ? What worth does a terrorist life has, that human institutions must be set aside to accommodate them ?

Any terrorist escaping extermination should consider itself fortunate.

[Drummond]

Then do not presume to speak for all.

I don't.

I never presume to speak for Lefties !

[aboutime]

I don't.

I never presume to speak for Lefties !


Sir Drummond. The word presume for fj is much like his use of the word 'assume'. And he doesn't dare want to use that while defending his position on anything. But that's how fj operates.

[fj1200]

I think I agree.

Unfortunately you don't. Unless you acknowledge your fallacy.


Your rather abrupt change of subject is not understood.

Besides, you're assuming that terrorists MUST be imprisoned. Why ? What worth does a terrorist life has, that human institutions must be set aside to accommodate them ?

Any terrorist escaping extermination should consider itself fortunate.

If they are caught/captured then prison is the end unless the death penalty is given. Of course they could die on the battlefield and that would be OK.


I don't.

I never presume to speak for Lefties !

Only lefties were victims? Follow the thread please.

[revelarts]

Just happened to run across this movie clip from A man for all Seasons.
sums up a lot quite well.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9rjGTOA2NA