Another BIG BROTHER intrusion

[SassyLady]

I hate the smart meters. I hate the new appliances that can be monitored remotely and I really hate this new past due/collection technique!


http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/24/miss-a-payment-good-luck-moving-that-car/?_php=true&_type=blogs&src=twr&_r=0



Auto loans to borrowers considered subprime, those with credit scores at or below 640, have spiked in the last five years. The jump has been driven in large part by the demand among investors for securities backed by the loans, which offer high returns at a time of low interest rates. Roughly 25 percent of all new auto loans made last year were subprime, and the volume of subprime auto loans reached more than $145 billion in the first three months of this year.
But before they can drive off the lot, many subprime borrowers like Ms. Bolender must have their car outfitted with a so-called starter interrupt device, which allows lenders to remotely disable the ignition. Using the GPS technology on the devices, the lenders can also track the cars’ location and movements.
The devices, which have been installed in about two million vehicles, are helping feed the subprime boom by enabling more high-risk borrowers to get loans. But there is a big catch. By simply clicking a mouse or tapping a smartphone, lenders retain the ultimate control. Borrowers must stay current with their payments, or lose access to their vehicle.

[jimnyc]

I'm not a big fan of it either - but it works! And if someone has a loan out, the person loaning, who has the lien, is still the owner. And history shows that tons and tons of people like to hide their cars or just disappear when payments are delinquent.

[fj1200]

I hate the smart meters. I hate the new appliances that can be monitored remotely and I really hate this new past due/collection technique!

http://www.off-grid.net/

http://www.daveramsey.com/home/

[NightTrain]

I hate the smart meters. I hate the new appliances that can be monitored remotely and I really hate this new past due/collection technique!

Interesting... I hadn't heard of that.

Those would be easily defeated, though. I helped a buddy disable his GPS on his work truck, it was as simple as pulling the inline fuse to the unit... took 30 seconds.

And I have to wonder about the liability when someone needs that car for a medical emergency and every second counts.

[tailfins]

I hate the smart meters. I hate the new appliances that can be monitored remotely and I really hate this new past due/collection technique!

The flip side is people getting auto loans that otherwise wouldn't. Which is better: A monitored car or no car at all? Of course there's the risk of them being required in ALL vehicles even with good credit.

[NightTrain]

The flip side is people getting auto loans that otherwise wouldn't. Which is better: A monitored car or no car at all? Of course there's the risk of them being required in ALL vehicles even with good credit.

Yep, that's a slippery slope. Law Enforcement would love to get in on that act, too, by just having Dispatch disable the vehicle when doing a traffic stop... it would be a simple matter to tie both systems together.

[Jeff]

Interesting... I hadn't heard of that.

Those would be easily defeated, though. I helped a buddy disable his GPS on his work truck, it was as simple as pulling the inline fuse to the unit... took 30 seconds.

And I have to wonder about the liability when someone needs that car for a medical emergency and every second counts.

I have this on my P/u, the dealer I bought it from puts them on all of there vehicles in fact it seems like most used lots do now a days, but they give you a code that will allow you to start the vehicle and run it for 24 hours in the event that the vehicle is shut off and you have a emergency. There is also a alarm that goes off 48 hours before your payment is due, so there is no mistakes made.

[NightTrain]

I have this on my P/u, the dealer I bought it from puts them on all of there vehicles in fact it seems like most used lots do now a days, but they give you a code that will allow you to start the vehicle and run it for 24 hours in the event that the vehicle is shut off and you have a emergency. There is also a alarm that goes off 48 hours before your payment is due, so there is no mistakes made.

Wow... that's intrusive.

I don't think I could do business with a guy like that. Is there something in the contract prohibiting you from tampering / disabling the device? They'll know when it stops phoning home to Mama.

[Gaffer]

One thing about Ole Rusty, my 92 S-10, is that it don't have no high tech stuff in it.

[tailfins]

One thing about Ole Rusty, my 92 S-10, is that it don't have no high tech stuff in it.

Are you going to get Historic Vehicle plates for it in three years? I tried using my 1959 Impala as a daily driver. It just wasn't reliable enough. Carburetors suck. I remember my dad used to say that there's no point in keeping a car past 60,000 miles and that after 100,000 miles a car was "done for".

[Gaffer]

Are you going to get Historic Vehicle plates for it in three years? I tried using my 1959 Impala as a daily driver. It just wasn't reliable enough. Carburetors suck. I remember my dad used to say that there's no point in keeping a car past 60,000 miles and that after 100,000 miles a car was "done for".

If I can get historic plates cheaper than regular plates I will. Otherwise I'll just get the regular ones. I'm on a fixed income and can't afford eccentricities. Besides Ole Rusty needs a serious make over. Bondo, new doors, new tailgate. More than I can afford and I'm incapable of doing it myself now.

My old truck has 130+ thousand on it and runs just fine. It use to be that the older cars didn't last past 100,000, but they made a lot of changes since the 80's and a vehicle that's well maintained can last well over 300,000 now days.

[Born2DecadesLate]

Interesting... I hadn't heard of that.

Those would be easily defeated, though. I helped a buddy disable his GPS on his work truck, it was as simple as pulling the inline fuse to the unit... took 30 seconds.

And I have to wonder about the liability when someone needs that car for a medical emergency and every second counts.

No they wouldn't be easily defeated. There is noway they made it as simple as pull a few fuses to disable LOL

Also, how is this big brother since it's private industry doing it, not the government. Seems to me that Capitalists should love this, I mean it makes it more likely that less than perfect candidates get credit.

[NightTrain]

No they wouldn't be easily defeated. There is noway they made it as simple as pull a few fuses to disable LOL

Yep, it was exactly as easy as that. There was an inline fuse in the wire that ran from the fuse panel to the GPS receiver under the dash.

The reason that we were trying to disable it was because every time he left his truck parked for more than 3 days, the battery went dead... the GPS was always on and draining the battery. Plus, he didn't like that there was someone monitoring where he went in his work rig... and I would feel the same way.

[Born2DecadesLate]

Yep, it was exactly as easy as that. There was an inline fuse in the wire that ran from the fuse panel to the GPS receiver under the dash.

The reason that we were trying to disable it was because every time he left his truck parked for more than 3 days, the battery went dead... the GPS was always on and draining the battery. Plus, he didn't like that there was someone monitoring where he went in his work rig... and I would feel the same way.

That is an entirely different setup than what is being discussed in the OP. This system is more than just a simple GPS unit. It's tied into the main computer. Pull the main computer fuse and you've defeated the purpose.

So, it's very easy to program the computer to shut down the engine if it detects a lost GPS signal. Then you are going nowhere.

[NightTrain]

That is an entirely different setup than what is being discussed in the OP. This system is more than just a simple GPS unit. It's tied into the main computer. Pull the main computer fuse and you've defeated the purpose.

So, it's very easy to program the computer to shut down the engine if it detects a lost GPS signal. Then you are going nowhere.

I didn't catch where this was tied through the computer of the vehicle. I'm assuming these are aftermarket units being installed at the dealerships that want to cater to high risk borrowers to aid in the recovery of the vehicle and it kills it in the same method as an auto-start when you hit the brakes before inserting the key and turning the ignition on.

I don't think you can have a vehicle that kills itself when a GPS signal is lost - in cities with high rises and in mountainous areas you'll lose GPS signal frequently. I use GPS to navigate in unfamiliar areas quite a bit and quite a few times I've been sent on a wild goose chase because it wasn't locked and got confused in the navigation, forcing me to navigate the old fashioned way. A tunnel would induce a lost signal as well.

[Born2DecadesLate]

I didn't catch where this was tied through the computer of the vehicle. I'm assuming these are aftermarket units being installed at the dealerships that want to cater to high risk borrowers to aid in the recovery of the vehicle and it kills it in the same method as an auto-start when you hit the brakes before inserting the key and turning the ignition on.

I don't think you can have a vehicle that kills itself when a GPS signal is lost - in cities with high rises and in mountainous areas you'll lose GPS signal frequently. I use GPS to navigate in unfamiliar areas quite a bit and quite a few times I've been sent on a wild goose chase because it wasn't locked and got confused in the navigation, forcing me to navigate the old fashioned way. A tunnel would induce a lost signal as well.

No, these new vehicles all have GPS in them anyway. All this is is a programming change to allow the finance company to shut down the vehicle if it needs to be repossessed.

And you're quite right, I don't see a system that will shut down a vehicle that is moving down the road if GPS signal is lost. But I do see them doing similar to what happens when say a Coolant Temperature Sensor goes bad, these new vehicles go into limp mode, shut down half the cylinders, won't go more than 40 MPH and won't go more than 50 miles. then they shut the engine off completely to avoid overheating.

There is no technical reason why the same couldn't be done here, and I suspect that is exactly what will happen if GPS is lost for more than so many minutes while the vehicle is moving. And to not allow it to start at all if the GPS is disabled while stopped.

This system is fully integrated into the vehicle's electronics. Will be impossible to defeat , although I'm sure many will try.

[jimnyc]

I had a piece of shit Dodge Dart back in the mid-80's (and the piece of crap was from 1970, I think?). Anyway, the crappy stereo kept blowing the damn fuse on me, and one day I had no replacement fuses. I replaced the fuse with tinfoil instead! LOL

And no, for whatever reason, had no issue with the car nor the piece of crap $5 stereo! Was back listening to WABC-AM in no time! :)

Sorry for the intrusion. :)

[Born2DecadesLate]

I had a piece of shit Dodge Dart back in the mid-80's (and the piece of crap was from 1970, I think?). Anyway, the crappy stereo kept blowing the damn fuse on me, and one day I had no replacement fuses. I replaced the fuse with tinfoil instead! LOL

And no, for whatever reason, had no issue with the car nor the piece of crap $5 stereo! Was back listening to WABC-AM in no time! :)

Sorry for the intrusion. :)

LOL you're lucky that didn't catch on fire.

I had an old Mustang in high school. One day it overheated and blew antifreeze everywhere. We were out in the middle of nowhere. Let it cool off, open the hood lookng around, a heater hose blew.

A condom, two shoelaces , and a gallon of water later we were back on the road.

Hey it got me home.

[jimnyc]

LOL you're lucky that didn't catch on fire.

I had an old Mustang in high school. One day it overheated and blew antifreeze everywhere. We were out in the middle of nowhere. Let it cool off, open the hood lookng around, a heater hose blew.

A condom, two shoelaces , and a gallon of water later we were back on the road.

Hey it got me home.

I know, but I was hoping it would catch fire! That thing was impossible to kill. I let the oil go bone dry and that thing still chugged along. It also looked like it was hit in the rear quarter panel by a semi, and then had a small tree growing out of it. I think I overpaid the $20 I spent on the car, but it was my first.

I remember my Dad doing similar to what you did, but he used some pantyhose to temporarily plug up a small leak, just long enough to get us to a station.

[Born2DecadesLate]

I know, but I was hoping it would catch fire! That thing was impossible to kill. I let the oil go bone dry and that thing still chugged along. It also looked like it was hit in the rear quarter panel by a semi, and then had a small tree growing out of it. I think I overpaid the $20 I spent on the car, but it was my first.

I remember my Dad doing similar to what you did, but he used some pantyhose to temporarily plug up a small leak, just long enough to get us to a station.

That old Mustang was a piece of shit, but I sure loved it, one time an exhaust hanger broke, All I had was an old ratty sweater to tie it up with.

Yeah that did catch on fire.

Since then I've restored her and now she's perfect, but back in the day she was a hunk of shit. 1965 convertible and for like a year i drove it with no top at all. Which was alright because when the weather got below 40 degrees she wouldn't start anyway.

[NightTrain]

No, these new vehicles all have GPS in them anyway. All this is is a programming change to allow the finance company to shut down the vehicle if it needs to be repossessed.

And you're quite right, I don't see a system that will shut down a vehicle that is moving down the road if GPS signal is lost. But I do see them doing similar to what happens when say a Coolant Temperature Sensor goes bad, these new vehicles go into limp mode, shut down half the cylinders, won't go more than 40 MPH and won't go more than 50 miles. then they shut the engine off completely to avoid overheating.

There is no technical reason why the same couldn't be done here, and I suspect that is exactly what will happen if GPS is lost for more than so many minutes while the vehicle is moving. And to not allow it to start at all if the GPS is disabled while stopped.

This system is fully integrated into the vehicle's electronics. Will be impossible to defeat , although I'm sure many will try.


No, these are aftermarket devices complete with their own built-in GPS. From the OP :


But before they can drive off the lot, many subprime borrowers like Ms. Bolender must have their car outfitted with a so-called starter interrupt device, which allows lenders to remotely disable the ignition. Using the GPS technology on the devices, the lenders can also track the cars’ location and movements.

- snip -


Mr. Sailors noted that GPS tracking on his company’s devices could be turned on only when borrowers were in default — a policy, he said, that has cost it business.


- snip -


Some drivers take matters into their own hands. Homemade videos on the Internet teach borrowers how to disable their devices, and Spireon has started selling lenders a fake GPS device called the Decoy, which is meant to trick borrowers into thinking they have removed the actual tracking system, which is installed along with the Decoy.

These are stand alone devices similar to an auto-start. Ask any mechanic about auto-starts and they'll tell you they hate them because of all the problems they cause after someone unqualified hacked into the wiring harness to install it.

It'll turn into a cat-and-mouse game of one-upmanship, similar to the radar & radar detector game. But at this stage it's still easy to disable it. Whether or not it puts you into a violation of your agreement is another story... I imagine they'll send out the repo men to come get the rig after it stops phoning home to Mama.

The big problem here is improper installation by unqualified labor, which resulted in that woman that had her car turned off as she was on a 3-lane highway in Vegas... it was tied to the ignition system instead of the starter circuit. If the dealer can have a 'Lot Lizard' install the devices instead of an expensive mechanic, they'll do it.


I think this whole idea is a shitty one. Too many opportunities for abuse and a definite invasion of privacy and a danger to the people who may be relying on that vehicle for emergency reasons.

IMO, you either loan the money or not, based on if you think that borrower will come through. Disabling a car remotely has way too many dangers associated with such an act because the immediate situation isn't known when someone clicks the mouse 500 miles away.

[Born2DecadesLate]

No, these are aftermarket devices complete with their own built-in GPS. From the OP :



These are stand alone devices similar to an auto-start. Ask any mechanic about auto-starts and they'll tell you they hate them because of all the problems they cause after someone unqualified hacked into the wiring harness to install it.

It'll turn into a cat-and-mouse game of one-upmanship, similar to the radar & radar detector game. But at this stage it's still easy to disable it. Whether or not it puts you into a violation of your agreement is another story... I imagine they'll send out the repo men to come get the rig after it stops phoning home to Mama.

The big problem here is improper installation by unqualified labor, which resulted in that woman that had her car turned off as she was on a 3-lane highway in Vegas... it was tied to the ignition system instead of the starter circuit. If the dealer can have a 'Lot Lizard' install the devices instead of an expensive mechanic, they'll do it.


I think this whole idea is a shitty one. Too many opportunities for abuse and a definite invasion of privacy and a danger to the people who may be relying on that vehicle for emergency reasons.

IMO, you either loan the money or not, based on if you think that borrower will come through. Disabling a car remotely has way too many dangers associated with such an act because the immediate situation isn't known when someone clicks the mouse 500 miles away.


okay, they are stand alone units, I missed that.


But anyway I'm sure no one will be disabling them while they are moving.

The bigger danger is that someone will figure a way to hack into them and do so.

[Gunny]

I'm not going to read through this wall of words. The fact is, this crap is dangerous. There have been instances of cars being shut down in freeway traffic. Collecting the almighty dollar is more important than life? If these guys are so damned good, then they'd not have some Indian shutting their stuff down arbitrarily. How about 3 AM? But no, some Hindu has a shut down notice and does it whenever they get around to it, during Hindu working hours. Too bad if you just picked your kids up from school and are in the middle of an intersection.

[tailfins]

LOL you're lucky that didn't catch on fire.

I had an old Mustang in high school. One day it overheated and blew antifreeze everywhere. We were out in the middle of nowhere. Let it cool off, open the hood lookng around, a heater hose blew.

A condom, two shoelaces , and a gallon of water later we were back on the road.

Hey it got me home.

I had a 1996 Cadillac that I used to move from Florida to Massachusetts. The outside temperature dropped to near zero and some ice in the fuel caused a fuel injector to detonate causing the car to catch fire. It was almost as if a more modern version of "Christine" resented being moved to a harsh Winter climate. It's a good thing I had full coverage insurance.


I'm not going to read through this wall of words. The fact is, this crap is dangerous. There have been instances of cars being shut down in freeway traffic. Collecting the almighty dollar is more important than life? If these guys are so damned good, then they'd not have some Indian shutting their stuff down arbitrarily. How about 3 AM? But no, some Hindu has a shut down notice and does it whenever they get around to it, during Hindu working hours. Too bad if you just picked your kids up from school and are in the middle of an intersection.

If that happens in Florida, you can call Charlie Crist. I don't think he will be busy a couple of months from now:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rcg_-8hB4E

[Born2DecadesLate]

I had a 1996 Cadillac that I used to move from Florida to Massachusetts. The outside temperature dropped to near zero and some ice in the fuel caused a fuel injector to detonate causing the car to catch fire. It was almost as if a more modern version of "Christine" resented being moved to a harsh Winter climate. It's a good thing I had full coverage insurance.

I've since fully restored this Mustang and to this day if it's below 40 degrees out she will not start. Now if it's in the heated garage and you start her and drive her she purrs all day long, even if you shut it off as long as you don't let the motor get completely cold again, I've put the highest amp battery and the best starter I can find in her and doesn't make a difference.

[tailfins]

I've since fully restored this Mustang and to this day if it's below 40 degrees out she will not start. Now if it's in the heated garage and you start her and drive her she purrs all day long, even if you shut it off as long as you don't let the motor get completely cold again, I've put the highest amp battery and the best starter I can find in her and doesn't make a difference.

There are two more places to look: Spark and fuel. You could replace the points with a Pertronics kit:

http://www.jegs.com/p/Pertronix/Pertronix-Ignitor-III-Kits/1220608/10002/-1



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HNp1zXpTTzI#t=0

You could also see if your carburetor's soft parts are getting tired.

[Born2DecadesLate]

There are two more places to look: Spark and fuel. You could replace the points with a Pertronics kit:

http://www.jegs.com/p/Pertronix/Pertronix-Ignitor-III-Kits/1220608/10002/-1



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HNp1zXpTTzI#t=0

You could also see if your carburetor's soft parts are getting tired.

There are no points. It has an MSD electronic ignition.

She's been sitting in the garage for years with dad just coming over once in awhile and starting her for me , while we were deployed. I doubt I drive her much now that I'm home now.

[Gunny]

I've since fully restored this Mustang and to this day if it's below 40 degrees out she will not start. Now if it's in the heated garage and you start her and drive her she purrs all day long, even if you shut it off as long as you don't let the motor get completely cold again, I've put the highest amp battery and the best starter I can find in her and doesn't make a difference.

LMAO. The first thing I thought of when I read this was a 69 Mustang Boss with a 3 speed on the deck. Try and rig THAT on me. Good luck.

[Born2DecadesLate]

LMAO. The first thing I thought of when I read this was a 69 Mustang Boss with a 3 speed on the deck. Try and rig THAT on me. Good luck.

No, I'm strictly a first gen Mustang guy. I know I know they don't have the big engines. But my little girl has the 272 HP K code 289 and 4 speed. She does just fine.

[Jeff]

Wow... that's intrusive.

I don't think I could do business with a guy like that. Is there something in the contract prohibiting you from tampering / disabling the device? They'll know when it stops phoning home to Mama.

Yes there is, and if you disconnect it supposedly it will send a message and then they repo the vehicle, whether that is true or not I don't know, I just pay the payment on time and don't worry about it.

[Jeff]

I'm not going to read through this wall of words. The fact is, this crap is dangerous. There have been instances of cars being shut down in freeway traffic. Collecting the almighty dollar is more important than life? If these guys are so damned good, then they'd not have some Indian shutting their stuff down arbitrarily. How about 3 AM? But no, some Hindu has a shut down notice and does it whenever they get around to it, during Hindu working hours. Too bad if you just picked your kids up from school and are in the middle of an intersection.

What I have on my truck is a device that only shuts the vehicle down once it has been shut off, it wont restart. They also have these in most commercial vehicles now a days, if the driver starts to do out of hours it will shut the truck down, that sent a wave of concern through the trucking community when they first came out with it, " what if I can't find a safe place to park for 14 hours ", " what if I run out of hours while I am stuck in traffic " again it only made it where the truck could be restarted, if I was out of hours a alarm would alert me ( well not in my truck) I drove for what is known as a cowboy company ( run anyway ya want as long as when ya handed your logs in on Friday they where legal :laugh: ) That is the only way you can make any real money in a truck. The Bigger companies ( JB Hunt, Swift ect... ) have these devices in there trucks but they brag of high pay :laugh: ( the last JB driver I spoke to was getting like 28 cents a mile , 20 cents less than I was and he told me the most miles he ever got in a week was 1800 miles ) 28 cents a mile even if this driver got 3000 miles a week ( which I called a normal week ) he was only making $840 a week . so after his expenses he wasn't even making $500 a week ( it cost to be on the road all week, showers , meals ect... ) and they want to limit further the amount of hours ( miles ) you can drive. The company I drove for let us run the way we wanted and we carried loose leave Logs so I did a new one every night I parked :laugh: that is the only way to make money driving anymore.