Silent Europe aghast at possible breakup of Britain

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://news.yahoo.com/silent-europe-aghast-possible-breakup-britain-144938042.html

Silent Europe aghast at possible breakup of Britain

Reuters
By Paul Taylor
17 hours ago


PARIS (Reuters) - Britain's international partners are aghast, mostly in silence, at the possibility that one of the leading Western powers could break up and turn in on itself if Scotland votes next week for independence from London.

Many fear such a split would foreshadow a British exit from the European Union, on which Prime Minister David Cameron has promised a referendum in 2017, weakening the world's sixth largest economy and its continental partners.

Some also fear it would set a precedent, boosting separatism in Catalonia and elsewhere in Europe. Independence campaigners from around the continent have underlined this by flocking to Edinburgh to support the "Yes" campaign and draw lessons for their own struggles.

Some posed for a group photograph with Scottish nationalist leader Alex Salmond, now racing to turn narrowing opinion polls into a win in the Sept. 18 vote.

The idea is not sitting well in leading capitals.

U.S. President Barack Obama has been forthright in urging Britons to stay together and in the EU.

"We obviously have a deep interest in making sure that one of the closest allies that we will ever have remains a strong, robust, united and effective partner," Obama said on a visit to Europe in June.

U.S. Navy Secretary Ray Mabus, while stressing it was up to the Scottish people to decide, underlined this week the importance of Scotland in building Britain's aircraft carriers and as the base for its nuclear submarine force.

"It would be unwise for an American to take sides in this, but there would be some issues that would require some serious work," he told a Reuters Summit on Wednesday.

Privately, U.S. and European officials say they are concerned that a Britain amputated of a third of its territory and 8 percent of its population would be more introverted and less willing to engage in military coalitions abroad.

While France has said it is willing to join Obama in air strikes against Islamic State militants in Iraq, Cameron has played for time and avoided a clear commitment so far.

Last year he failed to win parliamentary support for joining proposed U.S. air strikes in Syria, reinforcing opposition in Congress that eventually prompted Obama to abandon the plan.

PUZZLED

European partners have tried to be quietly supportive of Cameron on Scotland, underlining how keen they are to keep Britain in the EU, while privately puzzling over his decision to risk everything on two uncertain referendums.

"A Scottish exit from the union (with England, Wales and Northern Ireland) would be bound to heat up the debate about an early referendum (on leaving the EU)," said Phillip Missfelder, foreign policy spokesman for Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in the German parliament.

Merkel has made clear Berlin wants to keep Britain in the EU and is willing to accommodate some of London's demands for changes to help Cameron win the in/out plebiscite he has promised if he is re-elected next year.

Publicly, she has avoided taking sides on Scotland, saying: "There's a fair campaign taking place. So I have nothing to criticize. I also think the British are not waiting for advice from the German chancellor on what to do, let alone the Scots."

But German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier was less cautious on Thursday. "I would openly admit that I would rather see Great Britain remain together," he told a news conference in Berlin with his British counterpart Philip Hammond.

In highly centralized France, it is the precedent of separatism that is causing most political anguish.

"The idea that this can happen in Europe in regions like Scotland - even though it isn't at all the same context - demonstrates that frontiers are exploding and this is worrying," said Socialist Patricia Adam, who chairs parliament's defense committee.

Some foreign businesses are also worried. The head of France's Thales, which employs 7,500 people in Britain as one of its biggest defense suppliers, said a Scottish vote to secede would create uncertainty and put into question jobs and production sites on both sides of the border.

Some European diplomats are alarmed by Cameron's high-wire strategy for trying to hold the country together and keep it in Europe: "How could he take such ill-calculated risks?" a French diplomat asked privately.

He pointed to France's own history of lost referendums that brought down President Charles de Gaulle in 1969, stopped a proposed EU constitution in 2005 and very nearly killed off Europe's single currency before it was born in 1992, when voters approved the Maastricht Treaty by a whisker.

If Scotland does vote for independence, its future status with the EU could be a matter of lengthy dispute.

European Commission chief Jose Manuel Barroso infuriated nationalists in February by saying a breakaway Scotland would have to reapply for EU membership and would find it "extremely difficult, if not impossible" to gain unanimous approval.

Some legal scholars question his stance, citing the precedent of Algeria, which kept an associate status with the European Economic Community for six years after gaining independence from France in 1962.

This would affect us greatly. Britain has been a staunch ally and its military plays a key role in not just European affairs but also the security of Western civilization. Scotland is key in that military aspect.


U.S. Navy Secretary Ray Mabus, while stressing it was up to the Scottish people to decide, underlined this week the importance of Scotland in building Britain's aircraft carriers and as the base for its nuclear submarine force.

Additionally a weaker Britain indicates a faster fall to Islam! And trust me unless there is an immediate all out attack , deportation of its muslim infestation then it will fall. Question is how soon, almost a certainty in 20/25 years but could be ten or less IMHO. For their blindness in this matter is simply off the charts IMHO.. The Islamists there will rule that nation soon and that's a very major threat to our nation!!!!!! --Tyr

[NightTrain]

The latest polls show 51% against / 49% for leaving, when undecided voters are removed.

Going to be a close thing, either way.

[Abbey Marie]

This just makes me think how amazed the Scots who fought and died for freedom would be to see Scotland independent just by going to a voting booth.


Now if only Muslims too, could join us in the 21st Century.

[revelarts]

Wonder what William Wallace would say?

[NightTrain]

Wonder what William Wallace would say?


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/p75zgsW0ZVY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That scene always cracked me up.

[Noir]

This would affect us greatly. Britain has been a staunch ally and its military plays a key role in not just European affairs but also the security of Western civilization. Scotland is key in that military aspect.


Additionally a weaker Britain indicates a faster fall to Islam! And trust me unless there is an immediate all out attack , deportation of its muslim infestation then it will fall. Question is how soon, almost a certainty in 20/25 years but could be ten or less IMHO. For their blindness in this matter is simply off the charts IMHO.. The Islamists there will rule that nation soon and that's a very major threat to our nation!!!!!! --Tyr

Yeah, that pesky 1% of Scotlands population that are muslims are gonna rise up, and cause a wave Islam to ripple through the Highlands, the other 99% will be converted in no time, i give it 3 years.

[Gaffer]

Yeah, that pesky 1% of Scotlands population that are muslims are gonna rise up, and cause a wave Islam to ripple through the Highlands, the other 99% will be converted in no time, i give it 3 years.

He said Britain, not Scotland. If Scotland secedes they may avoid the muslim take over.

[Drummond]

Polls, even if there's some measure of disagreement between them, all show us that this is going to be a close vote. 'Too close to call' is a fair assessment, at least at present.

My thinking ... it's all a mess, threatening much harm to all concerned.

Westminster is already promising greater powers of autonomy if a 'NO' vote is achieved ... no doubt to bribe the Scots away from a 'YES' to 'separate from the UK'. Salmond, the driving force behind separation, is livid at that, and other things currently happening.

The latest is that all the major banks maintaining headquarters in Scotland have pledged to relocate those offices south of the border if Scotland does separate itself from the UK.

One big stumbling-block for Salmond has been the question Alistair Darling repeatedly brought up in his public debates. The question remains unanswered as to what currency Scotland will use as its own currency. Salmond insists it'll be the Pound Sterling, as at present. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as does Westminster as a whole, reject that. If English authorities are to believed, Scotland will have no right to call the Pound its own currency.

Salmond says nobody can stop Scotland from using it, which is technically correct. But .. will it be a FOREIGN currency, or not ?

Does it get any more basic to everyday life than what currency you use to get everything done ???

Another is EU membership. Salmond reckons it'll just continue on. The EU, recently, questioned that presumption. Our current understanding is that a devolved Scotland would have to renegotiate its terms of membership .. which Salmond insists is untrue.

Frankly, I get the impression that Salmond is doing his damndest to con the Scots into following his pied piper tune. He'll lead Scotland into impoverishment if he's successful.

And there's another dimension to this.

As matters currently stand, the UK as a whole is led by a Conservative-dominant Coalition. Now ... Scotland has an increasingly lengthy track record of rejecting Conservative politics ... yet, because there are so comparatively few Scottish people, and Scottish electoral seats, when you come to add up all the voting during a UK-wide General Election, Scotland tends to get dragged down the path that others, elsewhere, vote for.

Scotland's voters are more at home voting for LEFT WING style-Governments than any of alternative 'brands'. Salmond's SNP Party is itself broadly Left wing. One of their chief policies is to rid Scotland of any nuclear weapons and nuclear facilities. Were Scotland to separate, the UK as a whole would lose any capability to rely on Scottish land, or any Scottish resources, manpower inclusive of that, to help prop up its nuclear capabilities.

[CSM]

Hmmm...maybe Scotland (if they do manage to cut loose) should apply for Statehood with the USA ....

[Gaffer]

I new Drummond would bring in some facts and clarify things a bit. Looks like more liberal attempts to destroy a country. This gets some mention here in the US but it doesn't get a lot of coverage and no in depth coverage at all.

[Abbey Marie]

Polls, even if there's some measure of disagreement between them, all show us that this is going to be a close vote. 'Too close to call' is a fair assessment, at least at present.

My thinking ... it's all a mess, threatening much harm to all concerned.

Westminster is already promising greater powers of autonomy if a 'NO' vote is achieved ... no doubt to bribe the Scots away from a 'YES' to 'separate from the UK'. Salmond, the driving force behind separation, is livid at that, and other things currently happening.

The latest is that all the major banks maintaining headquarters in Scotland have pledged to relocate those offices south of the border if Scotland does separate itself from the UK.

One big stumbling-block for Salmond has been the question Alistair Darling repeatedly brought up in his public debates. The question remains unanswered as to what currency Scotland will use as its own currency. Salmond insists it'll be the Pound Sterling, as at present. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as does Westminster as a whole, reject that. If English authorities are to believed, Scotland will have no right to call the Pound its own currency.

Salmond says nobody can stop Scotland from using it, which is technically correct. But .. will it be a FOREIGN currency, or not ?

Does it get any more basic to everyday life than what currency you use to get everything done ???

Another is EU membership. Salmond reckons it'll just continue on. The EU, recently, questioned that presumption. Our current understanding is that a devolved Scotland would have to renegotiate its terms of membership .. which Salmond insists is untrue.

Frankly, I get the impression that Salmond is doing his damndest to con the Scots into following his pied piper tune. He'll lead Scotland into impoverishment if he's successful.

And there's another dimension to this.

As matters currently stand, the UK as a whole is led by a Conservative-dominant Coalition. Now ... Scotland has an increasingly lengthy track record of rejecting Conservative politics ... yet, because there are so comparatively few Scottish people, and Scottish electoral seats, when you come to add up all the voting during a UK-wide General Election, Scotland tends to get dragged down the path that others, elsewhere, vote for.

Scotland's voters are more at home voting for LEFT WING style-Governments than any of alternative 'brands'. Salmond's SNP Party is itself broadly Left wing. One of their chief policies is to rid Scotland of any nuclear weapons and nuclear facilities. Were Scotland to separate, the UK as a whole would lose any capability to rely on Scottish land, or any Scottish resources, manpower inclusive of that, to help prop up its nuclear capabilities.

I have some Scottish friends who are quite liberal. Now that makes more sense. They even love Obama. :eek:

[Abbey Marie]

Hmmm...maybe Scotland (if they do manage to cut loose) should apply for Statehood with the USA ....

If that results in cheaper prices for Single Malts, my husband will be thrilled. :laugh2:

[revelarts]

Without any knowledge of the political background, my guess would be they'll end up voting to stay with Britain.
People are adverse to change. Unless things are very painful.
Stick with the devil you know... is how we normally role as humans.

[fj1200]

But at least we got the Muzzy angle in. :phew:

[Drummond]

Without any knowledge of the political background, my guess would be they'll end up voting to stay with Britain.
People are adverse to change. Unless things are very painful.
Stick with the devil you know... is how we normally role as humans.

For once, we agree (.. on them staying, that is ..).

The rest of the UK needs to save them from themselves.

This video, below, is the second of two public debates transmitted about Scotland's future ... between Salmond (SNP) and Alistair Darling, his opponent .. who, note, is a former LABOUR PARTY Chancellor of the Exchequer.

I imagine the thinking in having Alistair Darling speak out was (a) he's Scottish himself, but also (b) as a SOCIALIST, Scots would be more likely to listen to him.

I suggest that Salmond's opening remarks might be instructive as to his own Socialism. He launches into an attack on Margaret Thatcher without the smallest hesitation: he refers to being able to avert involvement in 'illegal wars' (a typically Socialist jibe against the 2003 Iraq invasion, which the UK did its bit to support, but which an SNP-led independent Scotland would've opted out of) and an 'anti' comment against nuclear weapons expenditure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2_wKQilX5s

[red state]

I appreciate very much the info provided by the posters above who actually corrected my misinterpretation of the Scots. Having roots from that beautiful country, I assumed they were Conservatives who were sick of the liberal mentality of what is now not-so-great Britain. I hope they vote to stick with the UK now that DRUMMOND has revealed FACT and TRUTH into the matter. WOW! I truly had no idea. Still, the entire group of islands are bound for doom if they don't get a handle on their extreme leftist doctrine and political correctness....and here I was thinking that the Scots were trying to save themselves from the muSLUM influence that will surely and QUICKLY rule 'Ye Ole Merry England' if not stopped. Heck, under the liberal secession, the Scots would probably move their silent take-over and defeat from iSLUM even faster....all while weakening any possibility of the UK going Conservative and stamping out this evil threat that they DO face. I'm just surprised it wasn't Ireland to have started this secession thing and B.O. needs to keep his mouth shut about the situation.....he and his ilk is exactly what will cause our States United to dissolve. If things persist...we will have no other option and I'll be all for it.

So, Drummond, what say you about the US getting to the point of seceding? You have the advantage of knowing who is RIGHT and who is WRONG/left over here (unlike my assumption that the Scots were RIGHT). I did know (or thought I knew) that the Scots were the WARRIOR class of the UK and that the UK would hate to lose them merely for that reason alone. Wasn't 007 a Scot? I figure one of the reasons that only 1% of the muSLUMs are in Scotland because they'd get their iSLUMist @$$ kicked on that side of the islands. HA! Perhaps I am wrong in that regard as well. I hope not.

At any rate.....THANKS for making the truth known you guys (you too Noir).

[Drummond]

I appreciate very much the info provided by the posters above who actually corrected my misinterpretation of the Scots. Having roots from that beautiful country, I assumed they were Conservatives who were sick of the liberal mentality of what is now not-so-great Britain. I hope they vote to stick with the UK now that DRUMMOND has revealed FACT and TRUTH into the matter. WOW! I truly had no idea. Still, the entire group of islands are bound for doom if they don't get a handle on their extreme leftist doctrine and political correctness....and here I was thinking that the Scots were trying to save themselves from the muSLUM influence that will surely and QUICKLY rule 'Ye Ole Merry England' if not stopped. Heck, under the liberal secession, the Scots would probably move their silent take-over and defeat from iSLUM even faster....all while weakening any possibility of the UK going Conservative and stamping out this evil threat that they DO face. I'm just surprised it wasn't Ireland to have started this secession thing and B.O. needs to keep his mouth shut about the situation.....he and his ilk is exactly what will cause our States United to dissolve. If things persist...we will have no other option and I'll be all for it.

So, Drummond, what say you about the US getting to the point of seceding? You have the advantage of knowing who is RIGHT and who is WRONG/left over here (unlike my assumption that the Scots were RIGHT). I did know (or thought I knew) that the Scots were the WARRIOR class of the UK and that the UK would hate to lose them merely for that reason alone. Wasn't 007 a Scot? I figure one of the reasons that only 1% of the muSLUMs are in Scotland because they'd get their iSLUMist @$$ kicked on that side of the islands. HA! Perhaps I am wrong in that regard as well. I hope not.

At any rate.....THANKS for making the truth known you guys (you too Noir).

Nope - I'm afraid not. Scotland doesn't have any strong Conservative leaning these days. See ...

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/03/davidson-scottish-scotland


Since 1997, when the Conservatives lost every one of their Scottish seats, its share of the vote in Scotland has barely grown. In fact, at the last devolved elections in May, it actually dropped by 2.7 per cent (http://pattersonnotebook.wordpress.com/2011/05/17/why-how-and-what-now-the-conservatives/) on its 2007 performance. What's more, Scotland's Tory activists are literally dying out. Between 1992 and 2011 membership of the party declined from 40,000 to 10,000, while the average age (http://www.thinkscotland.org/change-scotland/articles.html?read_full=10675&article=www.thinkscotland.org) of those members who remain is around 70.So yesterday it fell to Ruth Davidson, the new leader of the Scottish Tories, to demonstrate that someone at the top of the party understands just how much work is needed if there is to be revival of centre-right politics in Scotland. Speaking (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-17486620) in front of what looked like a half empty town hall, Davidson laid out plans to reform the organisation's internal structures -- including its candidate selection procedures -- and to draw a younger generation of activists into the Tory fold. She also urged her colleagues to "stop apologising" for their conservatism and signalled her intention to confidently re-assert right-wing values against Scotland's SNP and Labour maintained social democratic consensus.
From what I've read, though there are Muslims in Scotland, just as there are in the rest of the UK ... it isn't quite as 'natural' for Muslims to go to Scotland in large numbers. For one thing, they tend to cluster around large population centres, something Scotland doesn't have much of (here, you'll find large communities of them in the largest cities like London, and Birmingham, and with the mosques to prove it). But additionally .. if anywhere has a notable 'drinking culture' in the UK, it'll be in Scotland, which of course Muslims will shun. What Muslims there'll be in Scotland, therefore, will be less easily accepted there than elsewhere (although the Socialist aspect will insist upon some political correctness being brought to bear .. so ....).

Scots the warrior class of the UK ? I think that's just stereotyping, to be honest. I suppose some are 'firebrands' .. but you'll get the usual mix of temperaments as you would in almost every other country in the world (not allowing for increased alcohol consumption, come to think of it ?).

Another poster, I think, suggested (jokingly ?) that maybe Scotland should become a US State ? Interesting. I'd not recommend it, though, because the drive (especially from the SNP as part of a newly-devolved Scotland) is to make Scotland a nuclear-free zone. Now, how easily would the US embrace having a fundamentally anti-nuke, and anti-Capitalist State within its borders (.. not to mention its own Socialised Healthcare system, the Scottish NHS) ??

A favourite Scottish pastime is meant to be (lots of stereotyping here ..) 'tossing the caber'. I wonder if it could be adapted for the benefit of Muslims ? 'Tossing the bacon-rind' comes to mind ... :laugh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_toss

[red state]

Well.....aren't we full of knowledge this day. So, what of the term "FIGHTIN' IRISH". We have that saying over here and even have teams under that title. What say ye to that ole friend of mine? We also say: "Drunken Irishman" but it sounds as though this could be equally true after your description of the Scots. I knew they were proud of their Irish whiskey but never thought of them as being a drunken lot (such as the rep Irish have obtained). HA!!!

Thanks again...ALL extremely interesting.

[Kathianne]

Well.....aren't we full of knowledge this day. So, what of the term "FIGHTIN' IRISH". We have that saying over here and even have teams under that title. What say ye to that ole friend of mine? We also say: "Drunken Irishman" but it sounds as though this could be equally true after your description of the Scots. I knew they were proud of their Irish whiskey but never thought of them as being a drunken lot (such as the rep Irish have obtained). HA!!!

Thanks again...ALL extremely interesting.

The Irish, with or without booze, have every reason to deny Britain of ownership. I don't know about Scots, but if they've been treated as badly as the Irish, good future.

It didn't have to be this way, just like Britain really never had to lose the colonies.

While I disagree with the Irish siding with Germany in WWII, I do understand they were playing for future. It didn't work out as well as it did for Russia.

[Gaffer]

Northern Ireland aside, the Irish have always held a deep hatred of England. The Scots experienced some of the same treatment as the Irish but the Irish got it way more. They sided with just about anyone that was fighting the British. If a country was at war with England you would almost always find an Irish company or brigade fighting in their army. The British were excessively brutal when it came to the Irish, so the hatred runs deep and is passed on through the generations.

Then there is the Welsh, who have a history all their own.

I think the Scots should stay with Britain. Breaking away would damage both countries severely.

[Abbey Marie]

To Rev's point, it sounds like there are endless things big and small that could change if there is a vote for separation. For one rather small thing, I wonder if separation would make it difficult for the Queen and Charles to continue to go to Balmoral. From their POV, or the Scots.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Nope - I'm afraid not. Scotland doesn't have any strong Conservative leaning these days. See ...

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/03/davidson-scottish-scotland


From what I've read, though there are Muslims in Scotland, just as there are in the rest of the UK ... it isn't quite as 'natural' for Muslims to go to Scotland in large numbers. For one thing, they tend to cluster around large population centres, something Scotland doesn't have much of (here, you'll find large communities of them in the largest cities like London, and Birmingham, and with the mosques to prove it). But additionally .. if anywhere has a notable 'drinking culture' in the UK, it'll be in Scotland, which of course Muslims will shun. What Muslims there'll be in Scotland, therefore, will be less easily accepted there than elsewhere (although the Socialist aspect will insist upon some political correctness being brought to bear .. so ....).

Scots the warrior class of the UK ? I think that's just stereotyping, to be honest. I suppose some are 'firebrands' .. but you'll get the usual mix of temperaments as you would in almost every other country in the world (not allowing for increased alcohol consumption, come to think of it ?).

Another poster, I think, suggested (jokingly ?) that maybe Scotland should become a US State ? Interesting. I'd not recommend it, though, because the drive (especially from the SNP as part of a newly-devolved Scotland) is to make Scotland a nuclear-free zone. Now, how easily would the US embrace having a fundamentally anti-nuke, and anti-Capitalist State within its borders (.. not to mention its own Socialised Healthcare system, the Scottish NHS) ??

A favourite Scottish pastime is meant to be (lots of stereotyping here ..) 'tossing the caber'. I wonder if it could be adapted for the benefit of Muslims ? 'Tossing the bacon-rind' comes to mind ... :laugh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_toss

As Always , you enlighten us and give us a true Brit's view my friend.
You know that if we lose Britain we have lost a great ally and it will be a major blow to us as a nation. If we lose it as an ally while it goes into the muslim camp that is a true disaster for us along with it being a disaster for the native Brits(infidels there)!!
Sad to have to say but we may see that in our lifetimes...-Tyr

[Noir]

Scotland votes no to independence.

"No" 2,001,926 votes (55%)
"Yes" 1,617,989 votes (45%)
85% turnout.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Scotland votes no to independence.

"No" 2,001,926 votes (55%)
"Yes" 1,617,989 votes (45%)
85% turnout.

Wisdom prevailed! Bravo!!!
That is if one discounts that Britain will in the near future be ruled by Islam. If that happens(and it will) then their military may then have to subdue a Scotland seeking to break away..
I tend to look a little deeper into the future than most..--Tyr