the least-skilled demanding MORE money - without earning it

[darin]

So - the weak and ignorant in Detroit are now protesting the pay they get for doing JACK SHIT's worth of work...they 'demand' to be paid more.


http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/09/04/dozens-arrested-during-minimum-wage-protest-at-detroit-mcdonalds/


The protesters who were sitting on Mack Avenue and refusing to move had a bit of a negotiating session between the police department and the organizers — that didn’t go anywhere,” Szumanski said. “So, police have now swooped in and what they have done is arrested at least 20, maybe 30 people. They’re leading them away in handcuffs to the back of the squad cars.”Organizers say the act of civil obedience was choreographed by the D15 campaign to bring more attention to the cause. It’s unclear what charges those arrested might face.
The “Fight for $15″ campaign, which is backed financially by the Service Employees International Union and others, has gained national attention at a time when the wage gap between the poor and the rich has become a hot political issue. President Barack Obama mentioned the campaign at a Labor Day appearance in Milwaukee.
“There’s a national movement going on made up of fast food workers organizing to lift wages so they can provide for their families with pride and dignity,” Obama said, as he pushed Congress to raise the minimum wage. “If I were busting my butt in the service industry and wanted an honest day’s pay for an honest day’s work, I’d join a union,” he added.
Many fast-food workers do not make much more than the federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour, which adds up to about $15,000 a year for 40 hours a week.
Kaya Moody, a 20-year-old single mother who works at a different McDonald’s location in Detroit, has taken part in several protests and she admits it hasn’t been an easy sell.
“We always get the ‘Do you really think you deserve $15 an hour as a fast food worker?’ We get that a lot and I just feel like, who doesn’t deserve $15 an hour, you know? It’s a living wage. No one can survive off of $8.15 an hour, it’s almost impossible,” Moody told WWJ’s Ron Dewey.




A co-worker summarized it nicely:


By now everyone has heard about the fast food workers striking in Detroit and other parts of the nation, demanding their minimum wage be raised to $15/hr. For comparison sake, below are the 2014 pay rates for enlisted soldiers broken down into hourly rates. True, active duty soldiers get other benefits, but they also work a lot more than a 40 hour week as well (which is what I based the conversion on.)


Fast work worker demands = $15/hr

E1 with <2 yrs service $18,378/yr = $8.84/hr

E4 with 4 yrs service $27,936/yr = $13.44/hr

E5 with 6 yrs service $32,814/yr = $15.79/hr


So, the person who can't even manage to not fuck up an order as simple as 'hold the pickles' somehow believes they deserve the same compensation as an individual who manages complex weapons systems, is responsible for the lives of others as well as tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollar in equipment, tools and supplies, and often works in austere conditions and risks their life on a regular basis.

That $15/hr is also equal to the national average starting salary of an ASE certified mechanic with a skilled trades degree (sourced from salary.com)

Yeah, that sounds fair. How about free water, too?


Couple that with - they will NOT be happy until burgers cost $22 each, and rent goes up 400%. Idiots.

[fj1200]

Couple that with - they will NOT be happy until burgers cost $22 each, and rent goes up 400%. Idiots.

I don't think that's going to happen but they won't be happy until they are replaced with a burger flipper machine and the one guy that replaces 3 guys will get the $15. Of course that guy will at least have finished HS and probably community college which will leave the unskilled, once again, way behind.

[darin]

I don't think that's going to happen but they won't be happy until they are replaced with a burger flipper machine and the one guy that replaces 3 guys will get the $15. Of course that guy will at least have finished HS and probably community college which will leave the unskilled, once again, way behind.

...which drives the democrat voter base - people who refuse to earn; instead demanding free shit.

[fj1200]

...which drives the democrat voter base - people who refuse to earn; instead demanding free shit.

:confused: At some point it's not about refuse to earn, it's about can't earn because the minimum wage has priced them beyond what their skills are worth. But the point that we should be making is what the true problem is rather than just calling them a bunch of lazy idiots who just want "free S*." I think one of those is a better message come election time.

[NightTrain]

I don't think that's going to happen but they won't be happy until they are replaced with a burger flipper machine and the one guy that replaces 3 guys will get the $15. Of course that guy will at least have finished HS and probably community college which will leave the unskilled, once again, way behind.

Good point, one that hadn't occurred to me.

When the more motivated and higher educated work force fills those $15 / hour jobs, where will those demanding the higher wage be then?

Mowing lawns? Shoveling snow? Hanging out at Home Depot trying to compete with illegals to build your shed?

I think I'd rather have a HS graduate with some college building my burger than a HS dropout slacker smoking their lunch. You know which one the hiring manager will pick.

[darin]

:confused: At some point it's not about refuse to earn, it's about can't earn because the minimum wage has priced them beyond what their skills are worth. But the point that we should be making is what the true problem is rather than just calling them a bunch of lazy idiots who just want "free S*." I think one of those is a better message come election time.


They people refuse to EARN money. Earning $15 might be having TWO $7.50/hr jobs. Might be working 20 hour days. Who knows.

People refuse to take responsibility for their livelihood - that's what this is about.

[Baba Booey]

Mixed feelings on this issue.

If your skill level is such that a robot can easily replace you, you should feel lucky you're getting 7 bucks an hour. Want a living wage? Acquire a skill and/or an education. Easy as that, forcing the minimum wage well beyond the fair market equilibrium is like trying to force a fart, you're gonna shit your pants sooner or later. (shaddap, Gunny :laugh: )

On the other hand, the vast minority of people control the vast majority of wealth and power in this country and no matter what any Rushbeck ass kissing institutionalized bucket carrying wingnut says (or is programmed to say), you, me, none of us 99%ers have a snowball's chance in hell of crossing over to the 1%.

So how "pure" is the freemarket really if the largest chunk of the market's wealth is highly concentrated in one specific demographic?

Not too pure, hence anyone who thinks we exist in a freemarket capitalistic society needs to update their meds.

These are union workers and when I think union I think powerful special interest, nepotism and privilege. So fuck these union people who bled Detroit dry like they did the steel industry. How great are unions when they'll watch an industry collapse by sucking the last drop of blood out of it than bend? So screw them.

On the other hand, how arrogant is the City of Detroit? Kind of a tangent point but they're sitting on this huge, valuable art collection worth (based on "loans" offered to them by a large art collecting firm) $3b and it looks like they're going to convince the bankruptcy judge to carve this out of funds available to creditors. This is where people, citizens, taxpayers should take up pitchforks and torches and storm the courthouse. What arrogance. A guy loses his job and he and his family are living out of their car because Detroit reneged on it's pension obligation to him but hey, at least Detroit gets to keep billions in artwork.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by fault lines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

And some say the end is near.
Some say we'll see Armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will 'cause
I sure could use a vacation from this

STUPID shit, silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom's gonna fix it all soon.
Mom's comin' 'round to put it back the way it ought to
be.

[tailfins]

Couple that with - they will NOT be happy until burgers cost $22 each, and rent goes up 400%. Idiots.

I will gladly pay $22 for a burger. However, it must be prepared by a master chef.

[Baba Booey]

I will gladly pay $22 for a burger. However, it must be prepared by a master chef.

Some of them might make just $15/hour so might as well be.

[tailfins]

Some of them might make just $15/hour so might as well be.

That assumes that the master chef has the authority to use locally sourced, best quality ingredients.

[darin]

Mixed feelings on this issue.
On the other hand, the vast minority of people control the vast majority of wealth and power in this country

You can't honestly use that argument without discussing the 'why?'


Big Businesses GET big largely because the Poor(er) keeping giving them their money. It's a self-inflicted wound on the part of the whining majority; and it's a non-issue to the middle; people like me earning what I make and doing a pretty good job of it.

[fj1200]

They people refuse to EARN money. Earning $15 might be having TWO $7.50/hr jobs. Might be working 20 hour days. Who knows.

People refuse to take responsibility for their livelihood - that's what this is about.

No. If that's what you make it about then you lose any credibility; Do you think a 20-year old single mother is refusing to take responsibility? Those people have ZERO control over their lives unless you want them to go underground and I at least applaud them for having a job in the first place. Just telling them to "work more" is pointless if there aren't any jobs in the first place. That's what the MW argument should be about; that increasing the MW kills job opportunities for those who most need it and are most at risk.

I hope they eventually do earn $15, and more, but they should earn it because the demand for labor is greater than the supply and/or because they entered the market to gain experience and maturity.

[fj1200]

So how "pure" is the freemarket really if the largest chunk of the market's wealth is highly concentrated in one specific demographic?

Not too pure, hence anyone who thinks we exist in a freemarket capitalistic society needs to update their meds.

It's not not-free because of wealth concentration, it's not-free in this case because the government has simultaneously created a price floor, a disincentivizing welfare system, and a regulatory environment that is harmful to economic growth.

[darin]

No. If that's what you make it about then you lose any credibility; Do you think a 20-year old single mother is refusing to take responsibility? Those people have ZERO control over their lives unless you want them to go underground and I at least applaud them for having a job in the first place. Just telling them to "work more" is pointless if there aren't any jobs in the first place. That's what the MW argument should be about; that increasing the MW kills job opportunities for those who most need it and are most at risk.

I hope they eventually do earn $15, and more, but they should earn it because the demand for labor is greater than the supply and/or because they entered the market to gain experience and maturity.

Yeah, a 20 year old single mother OR father who takes a non-skill job and then simply protests for more money IS refusing responsibility. Those people have 100% control. They can give the kids up for adoption? They can leave the kids with friends/relatives? They can work TWO jobs until a higher paying job happens for them. There ARE jobs, bro.

Your point about the crux of the argument is a good point; but I think the root of the problem is people's unwllingness to take FULL responsibility for their lives. They DEMAND "help". Demanding Help? It's not HELP at that point.

I'm agry about this today - and that drives my cinicism and stubborness preventing a truly-honest debate from my part. I hope you see that. :)

[fj1200]

Yeah, a 20 year old single mother OR father who takes a non-skill job and then simply protests for more money IS refusing responsibility. Those people have 100% control. They can give the kids up for adoption? They can leave the kids with friends/relatives? They can work TWO jobs until a higher paying job happens for them. There ARE jobs, bro.

Your point about the crux of the argument is a good point; but I think the root of the problem is people's unwllingness to take FULL responsibility for their lives. They DEMAND "help". Demanding Help? It's not HELP at that point.

I'm agry about this today - and that drives my cinicism and stubborness preventing a truly-honest debate from my part. I hope you see that. :)

Oh come on. We both know Detroit and you're closer to it than I am. Those people by and large have zero control. There are no jobs and she is probably in a better position than most. The Detroit unemployment rate is 17.7% and going up (https://ycharts.com/indicators/detroit_mi_unemployment_rate) so where are these wonderful jobs at? Do I think she's wrong and short-sighted? Of course but it's better to explain the problem than call her lazy.

[darin]

Oh come on. We both know Detroit and you're closer to it than I am. Those people by and large have zero control. There are no jobs and she is probably in a better position than most. The Detroit unemployment rate is 17.7% and going up (https://ycharts.com/indicators/detroit_mi_unemployment_rate) so where are these wonderful jobs at? Do I think she's wrong and short-sighted? Of course but it's better to explain the problem than call her lazy.

Move. If the jobs aren't where I am, I pick up and Move. If I can do it. ANYONE "Can".

Most people WANT a new, higher paying job. Most people are not WILLING to get a new, higher paying job.

This is about the eaches taking theirs and moving camp to where the jobs are. It sucks and its tough. But so what?

[BoogyMan]

It would seem that what we are seeing today is an outcome of the entitlement ideology under which the country is currently operating. We all know that fast food jobs are not $15 per hour jobs and that such labor cost increases are going to be ruinous to that particular industry, but with the justification of "it is only fair" being parroted by our government as a valid reason for the increase it looks like we will likely be pushed off that cliff.

Couple this with the hideously costly Obamacare mandates and the future doesn't appear to hold much positivity for the business climate in the fast food space or any other business environment that modern liberals target for ruin.

[aboutime]

Those workers can make all of the extorted demands for higher wages they want until...their FORMER employers either close, or get out of the business all together since they won't be able to afford keeping their doors open.

The national Union leaders WANT the demands for higher minimum wages to continue as a means of Growing their Union memberships. Which means MORE DUES PAYING MEMBERS feeding the pockets of the Union bosses.

Meanwhile...as Obama Plays his fiddle with the blessings of the Democrat controlled Senate. The Unemployment rates will go higher, and the former employers who will be forced to pay Those Lost Employee's Unemployment fee's...generates more of the DEFICIT for all of us.

[fj1200]

Move. If the jobs aren't where I am, I pick up and Move. If I can do it. ANYONE "Can".

Most people WANT a new, higher paying job. Most people are not WILLING to get a new, higher paying job.

This is about the eaches taking theirs and moving camp to where the jobs are. It sucks and its tough. But so what?

In theory anyone 'can.' In reality many are stuck. Besides if they don't have the skills to get a higher paying job where they are they're unlikely to have the skills to get a higher paying job somewhere else.


It would seem that what we are seeing today is an outcome of the entitlement ideology under which the country is currently operating.

I think it's more an outcome of government policy that has been allowing this sort of environment to stagnate for going on a couple of decades now.

[BoogyMan]

Check out the future of fast food. The $15 per hour wage will see these installed quick, fast, and in a hurry.

http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8


A company called Momentum Machines has built a robot that could radically change the fast-food industry and have some line cooks looking for new jobs.

The company's robot can "slice toppings like tomatoes and pickles immediately before it places the slice onto your burger, giving you the freshest burger possible." The robot is "more consistent, more sanitary, and can produce ~360 hamburgers per hour." That's one burger every 10 seconds.

The next generation of the device will offer "custom meat grinds for every single customer. Want a patty with 1/3 pork and 2/3 bison ground to order? No problem."

Momentum Machines cofounder Alexandros Vardakostas told Xconomy his "device isn’t meant to make employees more efficient. It’s meant to completely obviate them." Indeed, marketing copy on the company's site reads that their automaton "does everything employees can do, except better."....

[darin]

In theory anyone 'can.' In reality many are stuck. Besides if they don't have the skills to get a higher paying job where they are they're unlikely to have the skills to get a higher paying job somewhere else.




It's about willing-to. WILLING to find the skills or work whatever is required to earn the money they want. I remain convinced probaly 90% of those protesting are simply, and ultimately lazy.

[Baba Booey]

Check out the future of fast food. The $15 per hour wage will see these installed quick, fast, and in a hurry.

http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8

I saw that somewhere.

As a rule I don't eat fast food.

Years ago when "mechanically processed chicken" came into the spotlight that was enough.

Taco Bell's "seasoned beef" legal battle and then "pink slime" after that made any future lapse in judgment an impossibility. I'll eat out of a fucking dumpster before I eat at any of the fast food places.

But I do notice that McDonalds is phasing their dollar menu out now.

[aboutime]

http://www.theautomat.net/


http://youtu.be/ZrbyqUOObdU

[fj1200]

Check out the future of fast food. The $15 per hour wage will see these installed quick, fast, and in a hurry.

http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8

Cost of capital vs. cost of labor. Forcing up the cost of one side makes the other side look that much more attractive.


It's about willing-to. WILLING to find the skills or work whatever is required to earn the money they want. I remain convinced probaly 90% of those protesting are simply, and ultimately lazy.

Yeah, OK. There's bigger problems to solve that calling them lazy won't help. You're going to drive them right into the arms of the Democrats for another generation.

[darin]

Yeah, OK. There's bigger problems to solve that calling them lazy won't help. You're going to drive them right into the arms of the Democrats for another generation.

I'm too cynical to think there's ANY OTHER option than the folks i'm talking about voting ANYTHING but democrat, regardless.

[Gunny]

One thing I hasn't been addressed .... if minimum wage is doubled, are my wages correspondingly doubled? If not, that's just dragging my wages down.

[aboutime]

One thing I hasn't been addressed .... if minimum wage is doubled, are my wages correspondingly doubled? If not, that's just dragging my wages down.


Gunny. As I stated earlier. The Unions LOVE to use the Minimum Wage Increase for their members. It's a great BARGAINING chip when they go to Negotiations with a city, or township that is negotiating for Higher Wages.

If the Fed, State, or Local govt approves of a Minimum Wage Hike...for anybody. The Unions have ammunition to ASK, and DEMAND higher wages for their memberships.

Law of Supply and Demand...maybe. Realistic...You bet if you are a Union Negotiator.

[Gunny]

Gunny. As I stated earlier. The Unions LOVE to use the Minimum Wage Increase for their members. It's a great BARGAINING chip when they go to Negotiations with a city, or township that is negotiating for Higher Wages.

If the Fed, State, or Local govt approves of a Minimum Wage Hike...for anybody. The Unions have ammunition to ASK, and DEMAND higher wages for their memberships.

Law of Supply and Demand...maybe. Realistic...You bet if you are a Union Negotiator.

I agree, but this isn't about the union right now. This about our illustrious CinC bellowing for a national minimum wage that does not reflect differing regional economies.

Most cause and effect has been covered by others in this thread. My question in regard to cause and effect is do I get a corresponding raise too? All these minimum wage folk aren't looking big picture as far as the ripple effect goes. Double THEIR income and I want mine doubled. I get paid for my skills and it ain't flipping burgers and being sullen and slow in a fast food joint. I BUILD them.

BTW .. I am NOT a union electrician. The electrical union here got broken when Texas became a right to work state. They can't keep their people employed. We get union employees that work that basically work non-union until they get a call, then they're gone. And it IS a good ol' boy thing here.

[aboutime]

I agree, but this isn't about the union right now. This about our illustrious CinC bellowing for a national minimum wage that does not reflect differing regional economies.

Most cause and effect has been covered by others in this thread. My question in regard to cause and effect is do I get a corresponding raise too? All these minimum wage folk aren't looking big picture as far as the ripple effect goes. Double THEIR income and I want mine doubled. I get paid for my skills and it ain't flipping burgers and being sullen and slow in a fast food joint. I BUILD them.

BTW .. I am NOT a union electrician. The electrical union here got broken when Texas became a right to work state. They can't keep their people employed. We get union employees that work that basically work non-union until they get a call, then they're gone. And it IS a good ol' boy thing here.



Gunny. Gotta partially disagree with you. Investigation by ME have found the UNION "S.E.I.U" to be behind the rallies, and demonstrations against the Fast Food Franchise Owners who will probably be forced to get rid of many employee's, or shorten their working hours due to the Increase in wages...without increasing PROFITS.
http://icansayit.com/images/seiucorr.jpg

[Gunny]

Gunny. Gotta partially disagree with you. Investigation by ME have found the UNION "S.E.I.U" to be behind the rallies, and demonstrations against the Fast Food Franchise Owners who will probably be forced to get rid of many employee's, or shorten their working hours due to the Increase in wages...without increasing PROFITS.
http://icansayit.com/images/seiucorr.jpg

That wouldn't surprise me a bit. They've occasionally tried to "salt" our company with plants.

But who is to blame was not what I was addressing. I was addressing the effect on the economy and everyone else's (my) wages.

On the union issue, WHAT exactly does the union have to gain? Fast food workers aren't union. Driving the wage scale up in Detroit, a dead city, is going to do what for them? They can collect more dues from laid-off employees (not) working non-existent jobs?

Union employees are skilled labor. They make more than minimum wage. I don't see the incentive for the unions to want to increase wages when they can't even keep their people employed as it is. I just spent the last 3 years in that region of the US. It's dead to blue-collar trade workers. And I mean D-E-A-D dead. A case of the Dems cutting their own throats since it's THEIR policy that killed industry in the "Rust Belt". They EPA'd their own supporters out of business but their own supporters are too stupid to see that blindly keep putting them in office.

Are the unions self-serving bureaucrats and power brokers that have priced themselves out of business? Yes. They are a microcosm of the Federal government. Are they above dirty tricks? No. I just don't see any incentive for unions to give a flip about non-union employees who are unskilled labor.

[jimnyc]

I don't see how it's the employers responsibility because there aren't a lot of other jobs or choices out there. These folks think the employer should foot the bill for the bad times and just shrug their shoulders and double all the salaries. These people are running on stupid advice and greed.

If this were me and my local McDonalds? I fire all of them. Then I go to local High Schools and rec centers and tell them about fantastic jobs available for $9 an hour for those truly interested in an opportunity to make some money. And I assure you, I'll fill the jobs. There may not be a ton of jobs out there, but there ARE a ton of people that will work for what they offer.

If I own a business, and an employee tries to dictate his salary to me, that would be his last day.

[aboutime]

That wouldn't surprise me a bit. They've occasionally tried to "salt" our company with plants.

But who is to blame was not what I was addressing. I was addressing the effect on the economy and everyone else's (my) wages.

On the union issue, WHAT exactly does the union have to gain? Fast food workers aren't union. Driving the wage scale up in Detroit, a dead city, is going to do what for them? They can collect more dues from laid-off employees (not) working non-existent jobs?

Union employees are skilled labor. They make more than minimum wage. I don't see the incentive for the unions to want to increase wages when they can't even keep their people employed as it is. I just spent the last 3 years in that region of the US. It's dead to blue-collar trade workers. And I mean D-E-A-D dead. A case of the Dems cutting their own throats since it's THEIR policy that killed industry in the "Rust Belt". They EPA'd their own supporters out of business but their own supporters are too stupid to see that blindly keep putting them in office.

Are the unions self-serving bureaucrats and power brokers that have priced themselves out of business? Yes. They are a microcosm of the Federal government. Are they above dirty tricks? No. I just don't see any incentive for unions to give a flip about non-union employees who are unskilled labor.


Gunny. SEIU wants those Fast Food Workers to join a Union. Either THEIR new Union, or S.E.I.U. SEIU has been losing members over the last several years. Which means...losing DUES, which means THEY NEED MORE DUES PAYING members.
And I must disagree with you again on Union employee's being skilled labor. Many cities, towns, and counties have Union member street sweepers, and hole diggers.
I was once a member of the TEAMSTERS with my father, at 16, before I joined the navy. They were dedicated to the memberships then, but the Leadership always got the biggest paychecks AFTER everybody else.
Unions like S.E.I.U. are only representing workers who need someone to bargain for their wages, and benefits. So, if they can get Fast Food workers to get a minimum wage of 15 dollars an hour. That benefits SEIU as they collect a percentage of that 15 dollars as dues.

[hjmick]

I've got something for these folks...


Here's The Burger-Flipping Robot That Could Put Fast-Food Workers Out Of A Job (http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8)



The company's robot can "slice toppings like tomatoes and pickles immediately before it places the slice onto your burger, giving you the freshest burger possible." The robot is "more consistent, more sanitary, and can produce ~360 hamburgers per hour." That's one burger every 10 seconds.

[jimnyc]

I've got something for these folks...


Here's The Burger-Flipping Robot That Could Put Fast-Food Workers Out Of A Job (http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8)

That is awesome! And the best part? I bet the metal bastard always gets my order right and I'll never have to fear it spitting in my food.

[Baba Booey]

It's not not-free because of wealth concentration, it's not-free in this case because the government has simultaneously created a price floor, a disincentivizing welfare system, and a regulatory environment that is harmful to economic growth.

It's not entirely free because of both, and a combination of both.

Wealth influences legislation, that's pretty clear. Markets are closed because of barriers created by wealthy, powerful and politically influential corporatists.

Wealth concentration is certainly a factor that inhibits free-markets, with wealth comes power, with wealth and power comes corruption.

[red state]

That is awesome! And the best part? I bet the metal bastard always gets my order right and I'll never have to fear it spitting in my food.

True that, Jim. I can't tell you the times back in the day and very late at night when coming home from a concert and getting a bite only to throw it away....after a few times of that, I usually do a drive by first to see the work force. HA! If they have nose rings and such....I'm going somewhere else or going hungry till I get home.

Back to the topic at hand, however, once the minimum wage (or EVERY TIME the minimum wage goes up) milk, rent and fuel usually isn't too far behind. This, as GUNNY said, has a major effect on folks like him (and me). So, in effect, you raise the salary of unskilled workers and automatically lower salaries for skilled laborers. It is basic economics....if someone (say your land lord) takes a hit or knows that his tenants (some of which may actually be low income laborers) it is simple math that he raise the rent (what rent isn't on contract that is).

As someone said earlier (good post) it is this liberal concept that OTHERs owe them something when we truly owe them NOTHING but a good, stiff kick in the pants (or worse).

[Baba Booey]

One thing I hasn't been addressed .... if minimum wage is doubled, are my wages correspondingly doubled? If not, that's just dragging my wages down.

A minimum wage increase beyond market demand sets a watermark. It also prices out low/no skilled labor to a degree.

Production is a key element to our economy and many production jobs are being outsourced because labor is cheaper beyond our borders.

This is my statement, I didn't hijack this from someone else but it's probably been said somewhere along the way, but you cannot consume more than you produce as a nation.

Repeat - you cannot consume more than you produce as a nation and right now we're net consumers. Emerging economies are net producers, that tide is shifting, we see it clearly every day. In the long run that is, what winds up happening is that our standard of living gets charged off on credit cards - debt. Greece, Spain - those are great examples. Consuming more than they produce. They should be wake-up calls, but our political system - short term "zinger" gains for politicians > long term fiscally responsible strategy.

In this simple statement I do not include the service industry as "production" or the public sector.

[red state]

Of course, there's always some point into the operation of handling our food where one can do unscrupulous things. Still, the concept of a robot making our food is brilliant...............just not NEW (take a look at this)!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmXLqImT1wE

[aboutime]

The real, pragmatic, honest way I see all of those Fast Food worker demands is...They are actually destroying their own potential to work where they work now.

The more demands they make, the more noise, and disruption they bring to the business they demand THEY NEED 15 Dollars an hour in order to work for...the more the Owners/Franchisee's see fewer workers, working fewer hours, for fewer Dollars.

For the SELFISH, and Easily Led, Wannabe Union members. It becomes the END of what they think is equal pay, for equal work that, eventually...someone else will happily do, or a Robot that makes NO DEMANDS, works longer hours, for NO minimum wage WINS.

[Gunny]

Gunny. SEIU wants those Fast Food Workers to join a Union. Either THEIR new Union, or S.E.I.U. SEIU has been losing members over the last several years. Which means...losing DUES, which means THEY NEED MORE DUES PAYING members.
And I must disagree with you again on Union employee's being skilled labor. Many cities, towns, and counties have Union member street sweepers, and hole diggers.
I was once a member of the TEAMSTERS with my father, at 16, before I joined the navy. They were dedicated to the memberships then, but the Leadership always got the biggest paychecks AFTER everybody else.
Unions like S.E.I.U. are only representing workers who need someone to bargain for their wages, and benefits. So, if they can get Fast Food workers to get a minimum wage of 15 dollars an hour. That benefits SEIU as they collect a percentage of that 15 dollars as dues.

I understand the mechanics to the union. My grandfather was a union man, and my trade is permeated with it. Where we differ in definition could be where we live. If you aren't a skilled tradesman HERE, you aren't in a union. The union doesn't dictate squat. When I was in Ohio and IL, it was just the opposite. I couldn't find non-union work. The laws basically allowed the unions out anyone that wasn't part of them.

I'd like to see them try to unionize unskilled labor HERE. Especially fast food burger flippers. Dime-a-dozen. Go ahead and quit.

I think it boils down to the difference in where you live and where I do. This is a right to work state and its laws emasculated the union and there's no shortage of manpower. Want to bitch? Bye. Want to get paid more than you are worth? Bye. We got LOTS of people to replace you.

[Gaffer]

What's not being discussed here is this is suppose to be a national minimum wage. Meaning it put a lot of business out of business. Also, it doesn't take into account that different areas of the country have different costs of living. So it affects areas where it takes less to live. This would totally destroy the economy.

As for the protesters, fuck em, most aren't even employed at the places they are protesting and the rest need to be fired.

[fj1200]

I'm too cynical to think there's ANY OTHER option than the folks i'm talking about voting ANYTHING but democrat, regardless.

Think long term. Besides, we've got bigger structural problems that should be addressed rather than just telling people to move.


It's not entirely free because of both, and a combination of both.

Wealth influences legislation, that's pretty clear. Markets are closed because of barriers created by wealthy, powerful and politically influential corporatists.

Wealth concentration is certainly a factor that inhibits free-markets, with wealth comes power, with wealth and power comes corruption.

Disagree. Rich people like to make money and overall free(er) markets make money over closed ones. I'll agree that some use power to buy influence but wealth concentration, on its own, does not make a market less free.

BTW, are those corporatists related to the globalists? :poke:


A minimum wage increase beyond market demand sets a watermark. It also prices out low/no skilled labor to a degree.

Production is a key element to our economy and many production jobs are being outsourced because labor is cheaper beyond our borders.

This is my statement, I didn't hijack this from someone else but it's probably been said somewhere along the way, but you cannot consume more than you produce as a nation.

Repeat - you cannot consume more than you produce as a nation and right now we're net consumers. Emerging economies are net producers, that tide is shifting, we see it clearly every day. In the long run that is, what winds up happening is that our standard of living gets charged off on credit cards - debt. Greece, Spain - those are great examples. Consuming more than they produce. They should be wake-up calls, but our political system - short term "zinger" gains for politicians > long term fiscally responsible strategy.

In this simple statement I do not include the service industry as "production" or the public sector.

Sure we can, we've been doing it for quite some time. Greece and Spain have actively worked to crater their own economies and aren't really good indicators. We've been more passively working to crater our economy because we no longer focus on our comparative advantages; intellectual properties, low cost of capital, best higher education system, etc.

[Baba Booey]

Sure we can, we've been doing it for quite some time. Greece and Spain have actively worked to crater their own economies and aren't really good indicators. We've been more passively working to crater our economy because we no longer focus on our comparative advantages; intellectual properties, low cost of capital, best higher education system, etc.

In the short run yes, in the long run absolutely not.

[fj1200]

In the short run yes, in the long run absolutely not.

Short and long. Production is not limited to things.

[Baba Booey]

Short and long. Production is not limited to things.

Explain/elaborate

[fj1200]

Explain/elaborate

Services are production. Financial services, engineering services...


In July, the goods deficit decreased $0.2 billion from June to $60.2 billion, and the services
surplus was virtually unchanged at $19.6 billion. Exports of goods increased $1.8 billion to$138.6 billion, and imports of goods increased $1.5 billion to $198.8 billion. Exports ofservices increased $0.1 billion to $59.4 billion, and imports of services were virtually </pre>unchanged at $39.8 billion.
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/trade/tradnewsrelease.htm


The United States is the world’s premier producer and exporter of services. As the largest component of the U.S. economy, the service sector includes all private-sector economic activity other than agriculture, mining, construction, and manufacturing. The service sector accounts for nearly 80 percent of the private-sector gross domestic product (GDP) and for 90 million jobs.

SERVICE EXPORTS WITH HIGH GROWTH POTENTIALThe following sectors have grown most rapidly because of technology development and have particularly high export potential:


[*=left]Travel and tourism. The largest single category within the U.S. service sector encompasses all travel- and tourism-related businesses. As such, recreational and cultural services are included. The industry is diverse and encompasses services in transportation, lodging, food and beverage, recreation, and purchase of incidentals consumed while in transit. Export sales for this sector in 2006 were $86 billion.
[*=left]Environmental services. The environmental technologies industry is defined generally as all goods and services that generate revenue associated with environmental protection, assessment, compliance with environmental regulations, pollution control, waste management, remediation of contaminated property, design and operation of environmental infrastructure, and provision and delivery of environmental resources. The industry has evolved in response to growing concern about the risks and costs of pollution and to the enactment of pollution control legislation in the United States and around the world. The United States is the largest producer and consumer of environmental technologies in the world.
[*=left]Transportation services. This sector encompasses aviation, ocean shipping, inland waterways, railroads, trucking, pipelines, and intermodal services, as well as ancillary and support services in ports, airports, railyards, and truck terminals. Transportation is the indispensable service for international trade in goods, moving all manufactured, mining, and agricultural products to market as well as transporting people engaged in business, travel, and tourism. For 2006, total export sales for transportation services were more than $68 billion.
[*=left]Banking, financial, and insurance services. U.S. financial institutions are very competitive internationally, particularly when offering account management, credit card operations, and collection management. U.S. insurers offer valuable services, ranging from underwriting and risk evaluation to insurance operations and management contracts in the international marketplace. This sector was a $52 billion export market in 2006.
[*=left]Telecommunications and information services. This sector includes companies that generate, process, and export electronic commerce activities, such as e-mail, funds transfer, and data interchange, as well as data processing, network services, electronic information services, and professional computer services. The United States leads the world in marketing new technologies and enjoys a competitive advantage in computer operations, data processing and transmission, online services, computer consulting, and systems integration. Export sales in this sector also totaled more than $16 billion in 2006.
[*=left]Education and training services. Management training, technical training, and English language training are areas in which U.S. expertise remains unchallenged. The export market for such training is almost limitless, encompassing most industry sectors for products and services. Export sales were almost $15 billion in 2006 for this sector.
[*=left]Commercial, professional, and technical services. This sector encompasses accounting, advertising, and legal and management consulting services. The international market for those services is expanding at a more rapid rate than the U.S. domestic market. Organizations and business enterprises all over the world look to U.S. firms as leaders in these sectors for advice and assistance. This sector represented $13 billion in export sales in 2006.
[*=left]Entertainment. U.S.-filmed entertainment and U.S.-recorded music have been very successful in appealing to audiences worldwide. U.S. film companies license and sell rights to exhibit films in movie theaters, on television, on videocassettes, and on DVDs and CDs. U.S. music has been successful in both English-speaking and non-English-speaking countries. The entertainment sector had more than $11 billion in export sales in 2006.
[*=left]Architectural, construction, and engineering services. The vast experience and technological leadership of the U.S. construction industry, as well as special skills in operations, maintenance, and management, frequently give U.S. firms a competitive edge in international projects. U.S. firms with expertise in specialized fields, such as electric-power utilities, construction, and engineering services, are similarly competitive. Exports for this sector were about $5 billion in 2006.
[*=left]E-business. This sector, which can be service or product oriented, is expected to grow dramatically. It is estimated that there are already 400 million Internet users worldwide—but that figure represents only about 7 percent of the world’s population.



http://export.gov/basicguide/eg_main_043087.asp

[Baba Booey]

Services are production. Financial services, engineering services...


http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/international/trade/tradnewsrelease.htm


http://export.gov/basicguide/eg_main_043087.asp

Services are not tangible. Cutting someone's hair or analyzing the collectability of their receivables isn't producing a benefit beyond the superficial - nothing is created, consumed other than labor which is actually a draw when you consider the productive opportunity cost of that labor.

Regardless, even if you include the service industry a country cannot consume (goods and services then) more than it produces in the long run.

The only caveat is if you consider global standards of living and even then, in the long run they will wash out. For example, ours is dropping, it's been dropping for generations, nobody is noticing. China's is increasing.

It's simple math.

[fj1200]

Services are not tangible. Cutting someone's hair or analyzing the collectability of their receivables isn't producing a benefit beyond the superficial - nothing is created, consumed other than labor which is actually a draw when you consider the productive opportunity cost of that labor.

Regardless, even if you include the service industry a country cannot consume (goods and services then) more than it produces in the long run.

The only caveat is if you consider global standards of living and even then, in the long run they will wash out. For example, ours is dropping, it's been dropping for generations, nobody is noticing. China's is increasing.

It's simple math.

We exported $60BB of tangible last month. What is better, to have my wife earn $100 per hour or have her mow the lawn so we can "save" $20? Expand that nationally and it's the same point. Using capital more efficiently is tangible, improving receivables is tangible. Besides when dollars go overseas as exports they will eventually come back to us in investments which creates jobs, etc. Your argument is one that is couched with protectionism IMO and that particular philosophy has been proven to be destructive, see Great Depression.

Now I can certainly argue that we can and need to do better on the domestic jobs front but that's a separate, albeit related, issue.

EDIT:

And our standard of living has not been dropping for generations. It didn't drop when Europe was recovering from war, it didn't drop when Japan's SoL rose, and it's not dropping because China's SoL is increasing. And even if there is argument that it has I reject it's because of the increase of others.

[Baba Booey]

We exported $60BB of tangible last month. What is better, to have my wife earn $100 per hour or have her mow the lawn so we can "save" $20? Expand that nationally and it's the same point. Using capital more efficiently is tangible, improving receivables is tangible. Besides when dollars go overseas as exports they will eventually come back to us in investments which creates jobs, etc. Your argument is one that is couched with protectionism IMO and that particular philosophy has been proven to be destructive, see Great Depression.

Now I can certainly argue that we can and need to do better on the domestic jobs front but that's a separate, albeit related, issue.

EDIT:

And our standard of living has not been dropping for generations. It didn't drop when Europe was recovering from war, it didn't drop when Japan's SoL rose, and it's not dropping because China's SoL is increasing. And even if there is argument that it has I reject it's because of the increase of others.

It's because we were producing at or more than we were consuming.

Your "protectionist" comment is a rhetorical red herring. I know it's the current flavor-of-the-day radio show talking point but it doesn't apply here.

Your opportunity cost example had no production aspect to it, here's a better simple version.

Joe produces X-widgets valued at $20 each, two per day. Gus produces Y-widgets valued at $30, two per day.

Each consumes one widget they produce and trade the second one to each other but because Gus's widget has a higher value (ie: he produces more) Joe needs to cough up 10 gold pieces along with his X-widget.

At some point Joe runs out of money and they stop trading.

Why? Because Joe is consuming more than he's producing.

Same concept applies on the much larger scale that is national economies. Greece and Spain are finding this out the hard way, we're sliding down the hill right behind them.

Asian countries are at the top of the hill laughing at us, btw.

[Gunny]

Gunny. Gotta partially disagree with you. Investigation by ME have found the UNION "S.E.I.U" to be behind the rallies, and demonstrations against the Fast Food Franchise Owners who will probably be forced to get rid of many employee's, or shorten their working hours due to the Increase in wages...without increasing PROFITS.
http://icansayit.com/images/seiucorr.jpg

Upon further review, I stand partially-corrected. It DOES appear the unions are behind this; which, just proves how low they've sunk and hard up they have become to go after unskilled fast food burger flippers. Absurd.

However, my assessment was correct as to which part of the country it's happening in. The northeast and northern midwest where the unions are strong. Pretty much everyone the Democrat-led EPA has put out of business. Useful idiots. I wonder if they know the $15. an hour goes down to $11. and hour before taxes after union dues.

And it STILL doesn't answer MY question. Is MY pay going up 100% too? It is of course a rhetorical question. Of course it won't. Which just drags ME down. I bust my ass to get where I'm at and acquire a trade skill and these burger fippers and french fry jockies want to get legislated up for free? It's bullshit. That's what it is.

[fj1200]

It's because we were producing at or more than we were consuming.

Your "protectionist" comment is a rhetorical red herring. I know it's the current flavor-of-the-day radio show talking point but it doesn't apply here.

Your opportunity cost example had no production aspect to it, here's a better simple version.

Joe produces X-widgets valued at $20 each, two per day. Gus produces Y-widgets valued at $30, two per day.

Each consumes one widget they produce and trade the second one to each other but because Gus's widget has a higher value (ie: he produces more) Joe needs to cough up 10 gold pieces along with his X-widget.

At some point Joe runs out of money and they stop trading.

Why? Because Joe is consuming more than he's producing.

Same concept applies on the much larger scale that is national economies. Greece and Spain are finding this out the hard way, we're sliding down the hill right behind them.

Asian countries are at the top of the hill laughing at us, btw.

Not really. My example didn't need a production aspect as it pointed out comparative advantages. But I can say that your example is overly simplistic as it doesn't take into account changes over time and that Joe would produce widgets and Gus would grow corn because that's what their comparative advantage dictates. Greece and Spain are dragging their own economies down at record pace, read: austerity, and are not valid to your statement. We certainly have issues but it's not because we're running out of money. We were running out of money in the 80's and the 90's were very good.

You can save your radio show talking point list because I have no idea what it is but my protectionist comment is dead on. I gave a historical example of why it's a bad idea and as the outcome of your line of thinking. If I have that last part wrong then you could certainly let me in on your solution. :)

I'm not sure why they would be laughing at our superior living standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index) and record of liberty. :confused:

[Baba Booey]

Not really. My example didn't need a production aspect as it pointed out comparative advantages. But I can say that your example is overly simplistic as it doesn't take into account changes over time and that Joe would produce widgets and Gus would grow corn because that's what their comparative advantage dictates. Greece and Spain are dragging their own economies down at record pace, read: austerity, and are not valid to your statement. We certainly have issues but it's not because we're running out of money. We were running out of money in the 80's and the 90's were very good.

You can save your radio show talking point list because I have no idea what it is but my protectionist comment is dead on. I gave a historical example of why it's a bad idea and as the outcome of your line of thinking. If I have that last part wrong then you could certainly let me in on your solution. :)

I'm not sure why they would be laughing at our superior living standards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index) and record of liberty. :confused:

Because we are consuming more than we are producing, and they are producing more than we are consuming.

Our standard of living has been steadily eroding especially when you consider inflationary factors and factors such as quality and quantity. Build a home today at the exact specs that homes were built under 50 years ago, tell me - how much would you spend on it?

Add women in the workplace in order to support a lesser quality home and you might just start to get the picture.

They're selling a lot of cars in China lately.

And don't get me started on "record of liberty", your liberties and freedoms are eroding faster than your standard of living.

[fj1200]

Because we are consuming more than we are producing, and they are producing more than we are consuming.

Our standard of living has been steadily eroding especially when you consider inflationary factors and factors such as quality and quantity. Build a home today at the exact specs that homes were built under 50 years ago, tell me - how much would you spend on it?

Add women in the workplace in order to support a lesser quality home and you might just start to get the picture.

They're selling a lot of cars in China lately.

And don't get me started on "record of liberty", your liberties and freedoms are eroding faster than your standard of living.

What were you saying about talking points? :rolleyes:

They're suffering crap wages so we can buy their cheap crap? I think we're winning that one. I wouldn't build a house today to yesterday's exact spec.s. Houses are bigger, better, and actually have things like insulation, smoke detectors, etc.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/houses2.jpg

http://info.stantonhomes.com/Portals/45149/images/Average1.jpg

So, what was your solution?

[Baba Booey]

What were you saying about talking points? :rolleyes:

They're suffering crap wages so we can buy their cheap crap? I think we're winning that one. I wouldn't build a house today to yesterday's exact spec.s. Houses are bigger, better, and actually have things like insulation, smoke detectors, etc.

http://www.aei-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/houses2.jpg

http://info.stantonhomes.com/Portals/45149/images/Average1.jpg

So, what was your solution?

I didn't mention anything about a solution.

Let me ask - do you understand those graphs you cited or are you just happy to plunk them down here as a blind swing at your point?

Because if you understood my points you would have included graphs that show income per capita now that women have flooded the workplace and two-income households are the norm were the man of the house was once the sole breadwinner.

You would also have included graphs that show the cost of building residential homes and how these costs have substantially increased when quality of materials have decreased considerably.

Smoke detectors? Insulation?

Please...

All these graphs that you neglected to provide should also be inflation adjusted, of course.

Once you have that information, go ahead out on that limb and show us that you understand that data by forming a retort in your own words using this appropriate data as support, not as a red herring as you did.

So swing and a miss, next pitch.

[fj1200]

I didn't mention anything about a solution.

Let me ask - do you understand those graphs you cited or are you just happy to plunk them down here as a blind swing at your point?

Because if you understood my points you would have included graphs that show income per capita now that women have flooded the workplace and two-income households are the norm were the man of the house was once the sole breadwinner.

You would also have included graphs that show the cost of building residential homes and how these costs have substantially increased when quality of materials have decreased considerably.

Smoke detectors? Insulation?

Please...

All these graphs that you neglected to provide should also be inflation adjusted, of course.

Once you have that information, go ahead out on that limb and show us that you understand that data by forming a retort in your own words using this appropriate data as support, not as a red herring as you did.

So swing and a miss, next pitch.

Um, no. That was just the first whack at pointing out your everything-but-the-kitchen-sink argument ;) was off target. Cost per square foot has pretty much stayed the same, inflation adjusted, while the average new home size is far higher than your target nirvana of 50 years ago. I'm not sure if you have any specifics to back up your point but some of the houses built ages ago were built like crap and some of them were built just fine.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure a new house built today is going to have insulation and smoke detectors. My main level built in '36... no insulation. My upstairs rebuilt in '10... cozy foam insulation not to mention everything else that's better than what was there before we started. If you have a better point you should make it rather than on one hand complaining about the latest "talk radio talking points" or whatever you said vs. a couple of posts with nothing more than talking points.

And FWIW, I understood your points and it would be fascinating to discuss especially if you have a solution because that's what drives the ability to make things better. Who knows I might be surprised and find that I won't be presented with advocating a return to the Utopian Nostalgianomics of the 1950's. :)

[NightTrain]

I'm union. IBEW Local 1547. Certified Journeyman.

My wage scale is roughly double of what a non-union guy gets paid here in AK. That means, if you're any good, you're in the Union getting paid with full boat benefits and if you're not, you're working for a slipshod outfit with shitty equipment, no benefits and most of the guys around you are amateurs at best. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule with guys that HATE the Union but refuse to join... but that's usually not the case - those guys have been blacklisted and can't get a union job because they did something really stupid and no one wants them around a jobsite. I can pack up and move anywhere in the world and show my ticket to an employer and be hired for prevailing scale that day - provided, of course, that it's a union shop.

I can't tell you how many hundreds of jobs we've taken to go fix incompetent work when an unknown non-union, non-local outfit underbid the job by half and bombed. It happens all the time.

There are downsides to union, no doubt about it. But it's been my experience that for me, a working man raising a family, it's been the best thing I've ever done for me and mine.

[aboutime]

I'm union. IBEW Local 1547. Certified Journeyman.

My wage scale is roughly double of what a non-union guy gets paid here in AK. That means, if you're any good, you're in the Union getting paid with full boat benefits and if you're not, you're working for a slipshod outfit with shitty equipment, no benefits and most of the guys around you are amateurs at best. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule with guys that HATE the Union but refuse to join... but that's usually not the case - those guys have been blacklisted and can't get a union job because they did something really stupid and no one wants them around a jobsite. I can pack up and move anywhere in the world and show my ticket to an employer and be hired for prevailing scale that day - provided, of course, that it's a union shop.

I can't tell you how many hundreds of jobs we've taken to go fix incompetent work when an unknown non-union, non-local outfit underbid the job by half and bombed. It happens all the time.

There are downsides to union, no doubt about it. But it's been my experience that for me, a working man raising a family, it's been the best thing I've ever done for me and mine.


NightTrain. No doubt about it. Using the blanket statement many do about Unions (ALL BEING BAD) isn't any different from any other group, organization, or race of people. When you get down to the nitty-gritty.
Unions have been, and in many cases...still are the best Labor asset the American worker has had in over 100 years.
But...like everything else. There are also some really, really BAD APPLES that tend to make the Good Guys look bad, and get more attention.
I applaud you for your chosen path in life, and for making the best decisions for you, and your family.
But...we cannot, and should not ignore some of the Unions trying to destroy the American worker, and his/her family for the sake of Political gains that are destroying other human beings as we speak.

[NightTrain]

NightTrain. No doubt about it. Using the blanket statement many do about Unions (ALL BEING BAD) isn't any different from any other group, organization, or race of people. When you get down to the nitty-gritty.
Unions have been, and in many cases...still are the best Labor asset the American worker has had in over 100 years.
But...like everything else. There are also some really, really BAD APPLES that tend to make the Good Guys look bad, and get more attention.
I applaud you for your chosen path in life, and for making the best decisions for you, and your family.
But...we cannot, and should not ignore some of the Unions trying to destroy the American worker, and his/her family for the sake of Political gains that are destroying other human beings as we speak.

Yep, I agree.

Unions in AK are different than unions down in the Lower 48. I can't explain why, but clearly there is a difference. We work our asses off, and if you don't, then you're regarded as a slacker and you're not around for long. I pulled a 96 hour week, followed by an 89 hour week last January, and my partner was going through Chemo at the time - he's ex-SF and unbelievably tough. We had to pull those kinds of hours so we could catch the Ferry and continue on our tour of SouthEast AK repairing cell sites. We do that kind of thing a lot and there's no whining or making excuses, even when it's 40 below zero.

I can't explain some of the stuff that I've seen about the Auto Workers in Detroit... that's a whole different mindset and a complete lack of pride. But the end result is that unions have gotten a very bad name over that kind of exposure.

Unions have done some very stupid things, the worst sin I can think of is aligning themselves with Democrats... it grates that some of my money is used to further agendas that I am completely against. I'm aware of it, my coworkers are aware of it, and it pisses all of us off. The union powers-that-be are aware of our anger, and there is a shift... but it may be too little, too late.

I think some unions got too powerful and stopped trying to excel - and that's when things go to hell, from top to bottom.

I just wanted to point out that not all unions are bad, and not all union workers are bad. Some of us still try our best, despite what the headlines and talking heads say.

[Redrose]

So - the weak and ignorant in Detroit are now protesting the pay they get for doing JACK SHIT's worth of work...they 'demand' to be paid more.


http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2014/09/04/dozens-arrested-during-minimum-wage-protest-at-detroit-mcdonalds/





A co-worker summarized it nicely:



Couple that with - they will NOT be happy until burgers cost $22 each, and rent goes up 400%. Idiots.


We went to Dunkin Donuts on Sunday, they give a local resident discount, we showed ID. We ordered two medium coffees with cream and no sugars, and two jelly donuts. No other special requests.

We were overcharged, let alone a discount, got one coffee black as sweet as all hell, the other was so milky it was cold. One donut was a Boston Cream and the other was a cinnamon. ???

We were the only customers being served, and no one at the drive thru. God help them in a rush hour crush.

Minimum wage is too much.

[aboutime]

We went to Dunkin Donuts on Sunday, they give a local resident discount, we showed ID. We ordered two medium coffees with cream and no sugars, and two jelly donuts. No other special requests.

We were overcharged, let alone a discount, got one coffee black as sweet as all hell, the other was so milky it was cold. One donut was a Boston Cream and the other was a cinnamon. ???

We were the only customers being served, and no one at the drive thru. God help them in a rush hour crush.

Minimum wage is too much.


Got some advice for anyone who frequents Fast-food restaurants. Not intended to sound like a smart-ass, but rather. Just offering an observation many of you might make BEFORE deciding to purchase anything at your choice of Fast Food outlets.

If possible. Avoid DRIVE-THRU services, get out of your vehicle, and go inside to OBSERVE what the MINIMUM-WAGE, UNHAPPY, SOUR-PUSS FACED workers look like in person.
If you see them standing around, or hear them in arguments about WHO is supposed to do what task. Or, the manager is the only one actually working, speeding around to do everything. That means an UNHAPPY BUNCH may be there; angry, upset, and offended they are expected to WORK for what they consider SLAVE LABOR RATES.....YOU MIGHT WANT TO LEAVE, and FIND ANOTHER FAST FOOD JOINT where you at least find somebody with a BRAIN, and possibly a smile.

.................................................. ...................Caveat emptor............................................ .........................

[Redrose]

DD is the only "fast food" place we go to, even then we only go there about 3-4 times a year. My idea of fast food is Olive Garden and Red Lobster.

I worked in the court system for a long time. I worked over 1500 trials, some were law suits against fast food restaurants for "stuff" found in their meals. You would never eat out again!!

Minimum wage is too much for many of those workers, and I use that term loosely.

[aboutime]

DD is the only "fast food" place we go to, even then we only go there about 3-4 times a year. My idea of fast food is Olive Garden and Red Lobster.

I worked in the court system for a long time. I worked over 1500 trials, some were law suits against fast food restaurants for "stuff" found in their meals. You would never eat out again!!

Minimum wage is too much for many of those workers, and I use that term loosely.


Other than the famous MacDonalds University. Does anyone know of any FAST-FOOD outlets that offer DEGREE'S for professional, lifetime service as a Burger flipper, and French Fries Chef?

Is there a Retirement program for 65 year old men, and women who have Proudly devoted their entire working life to Milkshakes?

[gabosaurus]

Every time I see one of those fast food workers spots, it comes down to one question -- "How is someone supposed to raise a family working at a fast food restaurant?"
I want to scream at them "YOU DON'T! YOU GET A REAL FREAKING JOB!!"

Minimum wage jobs are starter positions. They should be filled by kids working their first jobs, or older adults seeking supplemental incomes. At the lowest, minimum wage employment is for those seeking jobs, as a stop gap measure.
There are tons of people who are genuinely unemployable. Like veterans who have been injured in combat. Or those who have been seriously injured and are unable to function normally. How could the government look them in the eye while paying double their pensions to able bodied adults to flip burgers?

You think illegal immigration is bad now? Double the minimum wage and they will be chartering trains to cross the border.

[Redrose]

What those mental midgets fail to grasp is Burger King, et al will pass that payroll increase on to the consumer. Burger, fries and coke will be $10.00.

Every employer who hires entry level positions who are now paying these higher salaries will also pass that burden on to us. Every item we buy, every service we use will be more expensive.

So the burger flippers of America and others earning the new "minimum wage" will not realize any economic benefit from it. They will earn more, but everything else will increase in price. Their buying power will remain neutral. All it will accomplish is cause inflation.

[Gunny]

Every time I see one of those fast food workers spots, it comes down to one question -- "How is someone supposed to raise a family working at a fast food restaurant?"
I want to scream at them "YOU DON'T! YOU GET A REAL FREAKING JOB!!"

Minimum wage jobs are starter positions. They should be filled by kids working their first jobs, or older adults seeking supplemental incomes. At the lowest, minimum wage employment is for those seeking jobs, as a stop gap measure.
There are tons of people who are genuinely unemployable. Like veterans who have been injured in combat. Or those who have been seriously injured and are unable to function normally. How could the government look them in the eye while paying double their pensions to able bodied adults to flip burgers?

You think illegal immigration is bad now? Double the minimum wage and they will be chartering trains to cross the border.

Damn. Who are YOU and how did you get Gabby's login ID? :dunno:

[fj1200]

So the burger flippers of America and others earning the new "minimum wage" will not realize any economic benefit from it. They will earn more, but everything else will increase in price. Their buying power will remain neutral. All it will accomplish is cause inflation.

They won't benefit because they won't have jobs not because it will cause inflation.


Wage InflationNo discussion of cost-push inflation would be complete without reference to that mother of all costs, labor. Friedman makes short shrift of that beast known as wage inflation, too.
``Wage increases in excess of productivity are a result of inflation, not a cause,'' Friedman wrote.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a2WnQ1aK8zBg

[Gunny]

They won't benefit because they won't have jobs not because it will cause inflation.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a2WnQ1aK8zBg


I think both.

[fj1200]

I think both.

Damn fence sitters. :martian:

[Gunny]

Damn fence sitters. :martian:

It's going to cause inflation. I've seen it happen on a smaller scale. The military gets a pay raise usually in January. Pittance that it is. Outside the gate of the base, the prices go up accordingly in the venues. They want their part of that money.

If the business owner has to offset that huge of a raise across the board, the consumer ALWAYS pays.

I also agree that the business owners will get rid of employees as a cost-cutting measure. They aren't going to willingly give up current profit.

[fj1200]

It's going to cause inflation. I've seen it happen on a smaller scale. The military gets a pay raise usually in January. Pittance that it is. Outside the gate of the base, the prices go up accordingly in the venues. They want their part of that money.

If the business owner has to offset that huge of a raise across the board, the consumer ALWAYS pays.

I also agree that the business owners will get rid of employees as a cost-cutting measure. They aren't going to willingly give up current profit.

I know it sounds good but I don't think that the reasoning plays out long term. I happen to go along with the Quantity Theory of Money that states inflation is too much money chasing too few goods. In your scenario there is now some extra cash floating around that will end up supporting those higher prices. Your description is more a demand-pull than a cost-push example and sounds like general inflation that happens all at once once a year. But if you were in a larger area with a smaller military base or were able to drive to a town not affected by the increase you would be able to avoid the localized "inflation."

I think with this current MW push the owners would really have no choices in the short term so would have to adjust to lower profits; I just don't see the general public paying significantly more for bad hamburgers. In the long run they either can't/won't stay in business or are able to buy a burger-flipper machine to do the job.

EDIT: Another nerdy link


There are several problems with the notion of cost-push inflation. The primary error in this analysis is that it confuses a shift in the structure of relative prices with a general rise in the level of prices. If the labor costs of businesses are increased and they succeed in passing on the costs to consumers in the form of higher prices, they will have managed to change the structure of relative prices at the expense of businesses that are unable to raise their prices because of more-intense competition. This is quite distinct from a general increase in the level of prices, which would be possible only if the real supply of money was increased.

Many firms, however, may be unable to pass on their increased costs to consumers. It is consumers who ultimately determine the price of any good on the market, and they may decide that a business's product is not worth a higher price. Producers cannot force consumers to buy what they produce, and businesses cannot always arbitrarily increase the prices of their products simply because the government has arbitrarily increased their costs.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa106.html

[aboutime]

How would some of you feel about trying a trick with the economy called Price Controls?

If I remember correctly, back in the 70's, before Vietnam ended, and Jimmy Carter nearly destroyed our economy.
I believe Nixon attempted to bring down the higher costs of food, and gasoline with price controls that made it easier
for the people to keep more of what they earned...WHEN they got back to work.

Some of you out there who claim to be Economic masters, and smarter than the rest of us because you insist only
you have all of the answers should now...TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY to prove how smart you are.
Anybody willing to begin?

[Noir]

Looking at it from a UK perspective, its horrifying how low some standard wage rates are in the states, how people survive on such low pay is bemusing.

[jimnyc]

Looking at it from a UK perspective, its horrifying how low some standard wage rates are in the states, how people survive on such low pay is bemusing.

For people out of HS and part timers, that pay rate is right in line. Head to NYC with an education, you'll make more than 3x the national average. Like anywhere else, it depends on the job, your experience, your education and of course what type of business you are working at.

Work as a HS lifeguard, expect to get low wages. Babysitter, low wages. Cart pusher, low wages. McDonalds, low wages. Most retail, low wages.

Work as an accountant, good wages. IT tech, good wages. Teacher, good wages. Doctor, good wages.

If you are selling $2 hamburger and fries, and have no education, you'll likely make low wages. Get an education, get employed and work full time, get out of part time, you will make more wages. You get what you put in. It's not impossible for these people to go to school, or work harder labor jobs and longer hours - they CHOOSE to work at companies that hire mostly PT and pay low wages.

[Noir]

For people out of HS and part timers, that pay rate is right in line. Head to NYC with an education, you'll make more than 3x the national average. Like anywhere else, it depends on the job, your experience, your education and of course what type of business you are working at.

Work as a HS lifeguard, expect to get low wages. Babysitter, low wages. Cart pusher, low wages. McDonalds, low wages. Most retail, low wages.

Work as an accountant, good wages. IT tech, good wages. Teacher, good wages. Doctor, good wages.

If you are selling $2 hamburger and fries, and have no education, you'll likely make low wages. Get an education, get employed and work full time, get out of part time, you will make more wages. You get what you put in. It's not impossible for these people to go to school, or work harder labor jobs and longer hours - they CHOOSE to work at companies that hire mostly PT and pay low wages.

How much does it cost to get a University education in the States?

[jimnyc]

Looking at it from a UK perspective, its horrifying how low some standard wage rates are in the states, how people survive on such low pay is bemusing.

Btw, looking at it from a New York perspective, I find it bemusing what you would think is better than McDonalds. I can get an entry level tech position starting at about $60k in the IT field. A little more networking background and that jumps to $90k. Get a little experience and supervise a small handful of people and now you're at $120k. Work harder a few more years and you'll manage that department starting at about $150k. This is for someone that has a 2 year degree and willing to work hard.

I assure you, McDonalds and other part time jobs aimed at kids and such - hardly "standard", unless you mean standard for many kids out of HS or while in college.

[jimnyc]

How much does it cost to get a University education in the States?

Depends, I got a 2 year degree for less than $8k. All depends on where you go to school. Many can get educated in community colleges around the nation for similar. You don't need to go to a major college to get away from McDonalds and go from a PT job to a better FT job.

[Gunny]

Looking at it from a UK perspective, its horrifying how low some standard wage rates are in the states, how people survive on such low pay is bemusing.

Bemusing because you haven't thought your statement through. We don't get paid to live on YOUR economy. Our own economy varies by region, state, city/country -- many factors. There's no one size fits all. I couldn't live in NYC on what I get paid here. Conversely, if I lived here on NYC wages, I'd be rather well off.

[Trigg]

How much does it cost to get a University education in the States?


Depends on the state you're in, scholarships, family income and the degree you're seeking.

My daughter will come out with a Bachelors in Bio/Chem, and since she's commuting instead of living on campus she will owe around $16 thousand. Which is VERY good for a private university.

The local public university charges around $300 per credit hour.


Looking at it from a UK perspective, its horrifying how low some standard wage rates are in the states, how people survive on such low pay is bemusing.

They survive because in addition to minimum wage they are also getting food stamps, housing benefits, free school lunches and books (if they have children) and a free college education for their kids.

[aboutime]

Depends on the state you're in, scholarships, family income and the degree you're seeking.

My daughter will come out with a Bachelors in Bio/Chem, and since she's commuting instead of living on campus she will owe around $16 thousand. Which is VERY good for a private university.

The local public university charges around $300 per credit hour.



They survive because in addition to minimum wage they are also getting food stamps, housing benefits, free school lunches and books (if they have children) and a free college education for their kids.


Noir. As Trigg said. You might want to check this link to see how so many Americans take advantage of government benefits.
http://theuspatriot.com/2014/05/22/welfare-woman-of-3-children-brags-i-will-never-work/

[Noir]

Depends on the state you're in, scholarships, family income and the degree you're seeking. My daughter will come out with a Bachelors in Bio/Chem, and since she's commuting instead of living on campus she will owe around $16 thousand. Which is VERY good for a private university. The local public university charges around $300 per credit hour.

Okay, now i'm assuming the public Unis have more places than the private ones and so are more common, and what is the competition like for places? Obviously it could vary a lot given the area, or status of the Uni, but generally speaking, would someone with average HS grades, who then left and worked min wage jobs for 5 years, and then wanted to apply to Uni, have good odds?


They survive because in addition to minimum wage they are also getting food stamps, housing benefits, free school lunches and books (if they have children) and a free college education for their kids.

So they can only survive because of government assistance? Doesn't this indicate that their pay is too low, if the gov have to support it? Why should the government be picking up the tab because companies don't pay enough for their employees to survive?

[fj1200]

Okay, now i'm assuming the public Unis have more places than the private ones and so are more common, and what is the competition like for places? Obviously it could vary a lot given the area, or status of the Uni, but generally speaking, would someone with average HS grades, who then left and worked min wage jobs for 5 years, and then wanted to apply to Uni, have good odds?

Is it possible you see the flaw in your premise? Almost anyone can get into a community college by merely filling out a postcard. To get into a better college would require convincing them to let you in and working MW for 5 years does not exactly show initiative.


So they can only survive because of government assistance? Doesn't this indicate that their pay is too low, if the gov have to support it? Why should the government be picking up the tab because companies don't pay enough for their employees to survive?

Their pay should equate to what their labor is worth in the market place. Why should companies be picking up the tab for employees who are not productive enough to survive?

[Noir]

Is it possible you see the flaw in your premise? Almost anyone can get into a community college by merely filling out a postcard. To get into a better college would require convincing them to let you in and working MW for 5 years does not exactly show initiative.

Yeah they should have showed real initiative and just of stayed unemployed.


Their pay should equate to what their labor is worth in the market place. Why should companies be picking up the tab for employees who are not productive enough to survive?

Well its either being picked up by companies or the gov. Personally i'd prefer the companies to do so, if you'd rather the gov do, fair enough.

[jimnyc]

Yeah they should have showed real initiative and just of stayed unemployed.

One can't grab a PT job at a fast food place and expect to live grand and feed a family of 4 - and it's hardly a fast food restaurants fault that these people cannot feed their families on the low wages. I can get a job tomorrow pumping gas PT, but it would pay less than $10 an hour, and I would barely be able to survive on it, and certainly wouldn't be able to keep going in NY with those wages. But does that mean these low paying companies need to all pay larger amounts, simply so that these people can liver better? That's not their responsibility.

[Nukeman]

Okay, now i'm assuming the public Unis have more places than the private ones and so are more common, and what is the competition like for places? Obviously it could vary a lot given the area, or status of the Uni, but generally speaking, would someone with average HS grades, who then left and worked min wage jobs for 5 years, and then wanted to apply to Uni, have good odds? If you live in a state and want to attend the public university of that state you only need to apply. You will more likely than not get accepted. Private colleges/universities actually have a little more grace on the acceptance and also offer higher amounts of awards and scholarships to bring the price down to the public level.

at current pricing one can expect to pay to live on campus with room/board/tuition/books/fees in the 18-25k range. If you have your own place or live with parents and only need tuition and books it is generally about 3-10k a year...



So they can only survive because of government assistance? Doesn't this indicate that their pay is too low, if the gov have to support it? Why should the government be picking up the tab because companies don't pay enough for their employees to survive?

YOU are forgetting that these are ENTRY level positions that require ZERO skill to obtain and ANYONE can do them. These are not skilled trades or technical jobs, they are NEVER meant to be a living wage job or one that someone who is supporting a family is suppose to work. This is why the fast food industry employees TEENAGERS!!!!!! If you are relying on a no-skill job to support your family maybe you shouldn't have had the family!?!?!?!?!?

[fj1200]

Yeah they should have showed real initiative and just of stayed unemployed.

:confused: Who said they were unemployed? I defy you to get a MW job and still be earning MW five years later.


Well its either being picked up by companies or the gov. Personally i'd prefer the companies to do so, if you'd rather the gov do, fair enough.

It's not the function of government to mandate what an individual should be earning at a private employer. Is it better to have a job and earn MW or not have a job and be entitled to a higher MW?