Hanson: Sherman and IDF

[Kathianne]

Sherman in Gaza | (http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=7793)


I know some from the South have inherited hatred for Sherman, but the truth is he saved many lives and shorted an already long war.

[Gaffer]

Singing: While we were marching through gaza.

[NightTrain]

Victor Davis Hanson is brilliant, as usual. I really enjoy reading his work.

Interesting comparison. I hope the strategy is as successful for the IDF as it was for the Union.

[Gunny]

Sherman in Gaza | (http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=7793)


I know some from the South have inherited hatred for Sherman, but the truth is he saved many lives and shorted an already long war.

He was a murdering scumbag with no control over his army, and waged war against noncombatants. But the end justifies the means, right?

[Kathianne]

He was a murdering scumbag with no control over his army, and waged war against noncombatants. But the end justifies the means, right?

He saved many 'noncombatants' by getting the war over. What Hanson wrote is also true, he avoided harming the poor and working class, saving his awe for those that pushed for war.

[aboutime]

He was a murdering scumbag with no control over his army, and waged war against noncombatants. But the end justifies the means, right?


Gunny. With all due respect. Your opinion about someone who did something, so very long ago, being brought here as an argument none of us are capable of waging, since it is History. Almost sounds like the same kinds of arguments being made by African Americans who still haven't recognized we are in the 21st century...and NOBODY LIVING TODAY...had any SLAVES, nor did they take part in the FIGHT to EMANCIPATE All Americans...no matter what their skin color.

How long can we continue to FIGHT about things we Cannot, and Will Never change?
Which is why I use this line as my signature:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
If the IDF is using Sherman's tactics against HAMAS. Would you rather they not use, or remember History, and face Repeating it?

Just a thought.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I hate, yes hate Sherman with every fiber of my being. he waged war directly upon the civilians--that is innocent women and children -in my opinion he was a terrorist and used directly terrorist tactics.. Sure it was successful but imagine the outcry and historical condemnation had General Robert E. Lee engage in those same tactics when the South was winning early on in the war.
Kat, my friend, I have studied the Civil war for over 40 years continuously . I have bought and read over 160 books on the subject.

I can and will agree to its success in ending the war sooner but not the method he employed.
To the victor goes the spoils and the ability to write the history but Sherman was by any decent reckoning - a monster and a completely unprincipled man IMHO.

Sherman could have split the South without "allowing and doing" the deeds that he did.....

It is one thing to fight total war against a foreign enemy but to do so against ones fellow Americans even if it is a civil war is a war crime. For the Union enjoys the fact that it fought for reunification and that means
rejoining and reuniting the survivors of those hideous, murderous and terroristic acts!

Sorry, not sure I can currently devote enough time as is warranted by this subject(interesting one) and your thread on it ....
I do however have extremely strong convictions about the "war crimes"(terrorism) engaged in by Sherman and his army..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Gunny. With all due respect. Your opinion about someone who did something, so very long ago, being brought here as an argument none of us are capable of waging, since it is History. Almost sounds like the same kinds of arguments being made by African Americans who still haven't recognized we are in the 21st century...and NOBODY LIVING TODAY...had any SLAVES, nor did they take part in the FIGHT to EMANCIPATE All Americans...no matter what their skin color.

How long can we continue to FIGHT about things we Cannot, and Will Never change?
Which is why I use this line as my signature:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
If the IDF is using Sherman's tactics against HAMAS. Would you rather they not use, or remember History, and face Repeating it?

Just a thought.
AT history can not be changed but it can be rewritten.
My view is that discussing history is a very important and vital thing.
How can one correct mistakes and past errors if the events birthing such mistakes are not ever discussed?
We should remember the Civil War was more about states rights vs. Federal government expanding powers.
We now see the results of Federal government expanding powers heading towards a full blown dictatorship with Obama the destroyer at the helm.
Sorry got to run , duty calls..-Tyr.

[aboutime]

I hate, yes hate Sherman with every fiber of my being. he waged war directly upon the civilians--that is innocent women and children -in my opinion he was a terrorist and used directly terrorist tactics.. Sure it was successful but imagine the outcry and historical condemnation had General Robert E. Lee engage in those same tactics when the South was winning early on in the war.
Kat, my friend, I have studied the Civil war for over 40 years continuously . I have bought and read over 160 books on the subject.

I can and will agree to its success in ending the war sooner but not the method he employed.
To the victor goes the spoils and the ability to write the history but Sherman was by any decent reckoning - a monster and a completely unprincipled man IMHO.

Sherman could have split the South without "allowing and doing" the deeds that he did.....

It is one thing to fight total war against a foreign enemy but to do so against ones fellow Americans even if it is a civil war is a war crime. For the Union enjoys the fact that it fought for reunification and that means
rejoining and reuniting the survivors of those hideous, murderous and terroristic acts!

Sorry, not sure I can currently devote enough time as is warranted by this subject(interesting one) and your thread on it ....
I do however have extremely strong convictions about the "war crimes"(terrorism) engaged in by Sherman and his army..-Tyr



Tyr. You, and Gunny have every right to feel as passionate, and angry as your words described above. But...HOW LONG AGO has it been since Sherman...the Terrorist, did those terrible things?

This is why we read History. And learn from History. BUT....it has been a long, long time since all of that took place.
What good does being angry do anyone NOW?

[Gunny]

Gunny. With all due respect. Your opinion about someone who did something, so very long ago, being brought here as an argument none of us are capable of waging, since it is History. Almost sounds like the same kinds of arguments being made by African Americans who still haven't recognized we are in the 21st century...and NOBODY LIVING TODAY...had any SLAVES, nor did they take part in the FIGHT to EMANCIPATE All Americans...no matter what their skin color.

How long can we continue to FIGHT about things we Cannot, and Will Never change?
Which is why I use this line as my signature:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
If the IDF is using Sherman's tactics against HAMAS. Would you rather they not use, or remember History, and face Repeating it?

Just a thought.

I have no problem with your opinion. I am the first to recognize judging people yesterday by today's standard. The fact is, by yesterday's or today's standard, I am consistent. A military force waging war against civilians is bullshit. Now fj can chime in and throw in his 2 cents and drag up Palestine, but there's a difference between waging war against noncombatants and hiding behind them and them getting killed. Sherman waged war against defenseless women and children. There was no one else where he was to fight.

All that freedom crap? Sell it to William Wallace. Equality in this Nation to this day is based on income. You're as free as what you can pay for. The Civil War was fought over money and power. Using "slavery" was a political ploy by Lincoln. He wanted to deport them all back to Africa and did not believe blacks the equal of whites.

Regardless, we sit here and judge hezbollah, the PLO and/or hamas by one standard, but give Sherman a pass on some false notion? What it all boils down to is the winner gets to write the books and he who has the most guns and ammo is right. Right?

I understand the tactic, trust me.

[red state]

https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608026116493345155&pid=15.1&w=126&h=161&p=0

Just look at this animal!

Yep, you can lump me in with Tyr and Gunny on this one. Why should we be so passionate about (AGAINST) Sherman.....same could be asked of the Jews (not that I'm comparing all aspects of the War Between the States and the Holocaust). If we lose our compasion, we lose our ability to remember and make certain that these things never again happen. You see, we see Sherman as the gov. he represented at the time as well as the gov. that does not represent the people TODAY. As many know, I have much Cherokee in my blood and I also share some heritage with General Jackson (president Jackson) and I can't stand that guy. To me, Jackson is one of the lousiest presidents we've had (right up there with Wilson, Carter and B.O.). Sherman was an SOB and he and his ilk did great harm to the Union and many such war criminals caused more lives to be lost cuz these animals left many feeling that they truly MUST fight or fall victim to an over powering gov. that had no problem in murdering, looting and raping any more than they had a problem in starting the war by taxing the South more and more unfairly than it did the North with an unequal representation. Folks can try to re-write history all they want but for many Southerners, the truth was passed down through the generations which preserved much of history. To the victor, goes the writing of history but somehow the truth always surfaces and if we fail to remember history or our dark days, we will be doomed to repeat it. I see dark clouds on the horizon and we are seeing a gov. that is just as corrupt and evil as some of our days from the birth and youth of this Nation.

[red state]

I have no problem with your opinion. I am the first to recognize judging people yesterday by today's standard. The fact is, by yesterday's or today's standard, I am consistent. A military force waging war against civilians is bullshit. Now fj can chime in and throw in his 2 cents and drag up Palestine, but there's a difference between waging war against noncombatants and hiding behind them and them getting killed. Sherman waged war against defenseless women and children. There was no one else where he was to fight.

All that freedom crap? Sell it to William Wallace. Equality in this Nation to this day is based on income. You're as free as what you can pay for. The Civil War was fought over money and power. Using "slavery" was a political ploy by Lincoln. He wanted to deport them all back to Africa and did not believe blacks the equal of whites.

Regardless, we sit here and judge hezbollah, the PLO and/or hamas by one standard, but give Sherman a pass on some false notion? What it all boils down to is the winner gets to write the books and he who has the most guns and ammo is right. Right?

I understand the tactic, trust me.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[red state]

Now, let me be clear.....Aboutime is someone I consider a dear friend and I've known and agreed with him on MOST all issues throughout the several years that I've had the pleasure of knowing him and enjoying his posts BUT this mention of forgetting or shrugging something off just because it happened LONG, Long, long ago sounds a bit like another incident now in our history that our leaders have shrugged off or forgotten because it (to them) happened "a long time ago". Really, do we forget our fallen that easily and carelessly? Benghazi was a tragedy and the treatment of the South was as much or more of a tragedy that should NEVER be forgotten or dismissed.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608026116493345155&pid=15.1&w=126&h=161&p=0

Just look at this animal!

Yep, you can lump me in with Tyr and Gunny on this one. Why should we be so passionate about (AGAINST) Sherman.....same could be asked of the Jews (not that I'm comparing all aspects of the War Between the States and the Holocaust). If we lose our compasion, we lose our ability to remember and make certain that these things never again happen. You see, we see Sherman as the gov. he represented at the time as well as the gov. that does not represent the people TODAY. As many know, I have much Cherokee in my blood and I also share some heritage with General Jackson (president Jackson) and I can't stand that guy. To me, Jackson is one of the lousiest presidents we've had (right up there with Wilson, Carter and B.O.). Sherman was an SOB and he and his ilk did great harm to the Union and many such war criminals caused more lives to be lost cuz these animals left many feeling that they truly MUST fight or fall victim to an over powering gov. that had no problem in murdering, looting and raping any more than they had a problem in starting the war by taxing the South more and more unfairly than it did the North with an unequal representation. Folks can try to re-write history all they want but for many Southerners, the truth was passed down through the generations which preserved much of history. To the victor, goes the writing of history but somehow the truth always surfaces and if we fail to remember history or our dark days, we will be doomed to repeat it. I see dark clouds on the horizon and we are seeing a gov. that is just as corrupt and evil as some of our days from the birth and youth of this Nation.



http://www.historynet.com/general-william-tecumseh-sherman



After The Civil War

Sherman succeeded Grant a second time when Grant became president in 1869, becoming the Commanding General of the Army from 1869 until 1883. He was integral to the U.S Army’s involvement with the Indian Wars for the next 15 years. At one point, when asked a question about "good Indians," he responded that, "The only good Indians I ever saw were dead," which became, "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" in popular vernacular. Sherman left a legacy of famous quotes, including perhaps his most famous, "War is hell." This, too, was an abridged version of his actual words: "Young men think war is all glory. It is all hell."

Another of Sherman’s quotations is, "If nominated (for president), I will not run. If elected, I will not serve." He was one of the commanders who kept away from politics. Given his long-running feuds with the press, that was probably a wise decision. He published one of the most popular and well-read first-hand accounts of the Civil War, his book Memoirs, published in 1875.



Sherman left a legacy of famous quotes, including perhaps his most famous, "War is hell." This, too, was an abridged version of his actual words: "Young men think war is all glory. It is all hell."

Yes, Sherman's quote was shortened to --"War is Hell" and he went on to prove it when he burned out, starved out , innocent civilian families in his, "March to the Sea"!!
Deep research will show he was a very brutal and vindictive man that decided to wage war directly against innocent civilians in order the reduce the number of troop lives lost under his command. The problem with that is the troops were trained to fight and duty bound to risk their lives whereas those civilians were just trying to live until the war ended.

Sherman decided to sacrifice thousands of innocent women and children to save his men. Yet up to that time no American commander had ever dared to wholesale sacrifice innocent civilians to save his troop lives. What Sherman did was pure terrorism and he was a monster. He starved out thousands of families that had nowhere to go for help. Fact...
Should I be unfortunate enough to end up "down there" I am going to stomp his sorry cowardly ass soon as I arrive and can find him !!!-Tyr

[Gunny]

Now, let me be clear.....Aboutime is someone I consider a dear friend and I've known and agreed with him on MOST all issues throughout the several years that I've had the pleasure of knowing him and enjoying his posts BUT this mention of forgetting or shrugging something off just because it happened LONG, Long, long ago sounds a bit like another incident now in our history that our leaders have shrugged off or forgotten because it (to them) happened "a long time ago". Really, do we forget our fallen that easily and carelessly? Benghazi was a tragedy and the treatment of the South was as much or more of a tragedy that should NEVER be forgotten or dismissed.

I have no problem with aboutime whatsoever. I have all the respect in the world for him. I disagree on a topic. Not personal. I did not attack him. I attacked the argument. Zero problem if he returns fire.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I have no problem with aboutime whatsoever. I have all the respect in the world for him. I disagree on a topic. Not personal. I did not attack him. I attacked the argument. Zero problem if he returns fire.

AT is a fine and honorable man. I've known him and read thousands of his posts at two sites now.
In fact, I left our old site because they banned him wrongly yielding to a wolf pack of stinking lib asshats that hounded him for over 5 years there.
In fact, they are still talking about him there over 4+ years since his departure! For he smacked their sorry asses around but good! That site allowed their wolf pack tactics and kept right on banning him increasing the length of each ban but he doggedly came back to defend himself, his service , this nation and our Constitution every damn time. Finally they set a trap, then misrepresented what he said , got admin, to yield to their ffing hatred and perma-ban AT. I had over 5+ years there at that time and over 30K posts, demanded they correct their error or else I leave- they refused!

I came directly here and met the same type of wolf-pack immediately , thanks to Jim's sense of honor and fair pay I endured and my wolf-pack opposition eventually got banned or ran away in disgust at so much truth being allowed to stand here!

A mark noted openly by myself of Jim choosing truth over a united effort to destroy it!!!

AT and I can disagree on things as we are all individuals with different life experiences . I , however, know he stands as a man that served his nation proudly in the Navy and always wants the best for this nation!
And like myself , dearly wants the dem party to never hold any type of
meaningful power ever again!!

Neither of us will ever walk lockstep . We stand as proud Americans that have and exercise our freedoms as God intended. And as so many American patriots(primarily military) sacrificed and died to preserve!

On topic is whether history of the Civil war and its endgame winning strategy by the Union GENERAL SHERMAN was the right method, saved more lives or was it use of terrorist tactics, contemptible and murderous actions taken on innocent women and children.
At least that's my take on it. And I carved out precious extra time just to come here to reply.-Tyr

[Gunny]

AT is a fine and honorable man. I've known him and read thousands of his posts at two sites now.
In fact, I left our old site because they banned him wrongly yielding to a wolf pack of stinking lib asshats that hounded him for over 5 years there.
In fact, they are still talking about him there over 4+ years since his departure! For he smacked their sorry asses around but good! That site allowed their wolf pack tactics and kept right on banning him increasing the length of each ban but he doggedly came back to defend himself, his service , this nation and our Constitution every damn time. Finally they set a trap, then misrepresented what he said , got admin, to yield to their ffing hatred and perma-ban AT. I had over 5+ years there at that time and over 30K posts, demanded they correct their error or else I leave- they refused!

I came directly here and met the same type of wolf-pack immediately , thanks to Jim's sense of honor and fair pay I endured and my wolf-pack opposition eventually got banned or ran away in disgust at so much truth being allowed to stand here!

A mark noted openly by myself of Jim choosing truth over a united effort to destroy it!!!

AT and I can disagree on things as we are all individuals with different life experiences . I , however, know he stands as a man that served his nation proudly in the Navy and always wants the best for this nation!
And like myself , dearly wants the dem party to never hold any type of
meaningful power ever again!!

Neither of us will ever walk lockstep . We stand as proud Americans that have and exercise our freedoms as God intended. And as so many American patriots(primarily military) sacrificed and died to preserve!

On topic is whether history of the Civil war and its endgame winning strategy by the Union GENERAL SHERMAN was the right method, saved more lives or was it use of terrorist tactics, contemptible and murderous actions taken on innocent women and children.
At least that's my take on it. And I carved out precious extra time just to come here to reply.-Tyr

There's not really a "right method" to the argument. On a tactical and strategic level, what he did worked. The US won the war, and got to write the history books. Anyone who has EVER known me on these boards knows the second you say the US Civil War was fought over slavery I'll be all over it. Glossed-over, revisionist history to put some new lipstick on the pig. The war was fought over money and control of the US government. Lincoln freed the slaves only in those states "rebellion", as a military tactic, and no other reason. Calculated risk. Get the slaves to rise up and you pull troops out of the line.

Bear in mind, I am in no way arguing that slavery is right. We didn't invent it. It was part of life. But it's been dishonestly used in this nation as a political tool and guilt trip to shut up anyone that calls bullshit.

But, you will be hard pressed to argue Sherman's tactics were any better than ISIS's. Because he had a different reason? Does thinking you are right make it okay to wage war against women and children? I'll go swords with you in an open field to this day. I'm not going to attack your family to get at you. If I was going to use THAT tactic there'd be more than one extremely unhappy camper right now. But it's weak, cheap and cowardly.

[red state]

I never meant to imply that any of us had issue with AT.....I was just expressing my views and how we need to be careful in not giving in to the misgivings of those who misleadingly wrote history and to NEVER forget just because it was LONG AGO. I have the utmost confidence in AT, Tyr and our "gang of rebels" to uphold the Constitution and at least try to save this Nation. All others would simply let her slip and slide into a desperate state that we will never recover from.

As for the North winning the war through a working strategy. The North, through propaganda, recruited many to fight for their cause, which Gunny so adequately informed us all that it was their overbearing power struggle that caused the war to begin with. We should never forget that these vermin also forced Irish immigrants to do their dirty work and sent them in droves to be killed. They FAR outnumbered the 'rebels' and we failed to make sure that we had the same industry that the North has always had. We also failed to gain substantial aid from our business partners (the British and France). This proved to be an important strategy of our founders when going against King George. Besides, if you think about it, the South had been financing the NORTH for years through taxes and benefited NOTHING. The benefits were all the North's as they used a Navy and Army that the South helped produce. Outnumbered and out gunned and without outside influences, we could have never won....but that isn't to say that we (the better fighters) didn't give the yanks a run for their money (despite our oppositions dirty tactics, overwhelming numbers and superior funding/equipment).

Let's also never forget the North turning their backs on Native American tribes (such as the Cherokee) who aided the USA before and after we were the USA. In fact, the same terrorism that Sherman used on Southerners was the same tactics and worse that the Union Army used later as they advanced Westward. This mistrust of an overbearing and unfair gov. is why the Southerners went to war and why the Cherokee Nations sided with the Southerners (who lived, traded and married with the Cherokee).

Don't get me wrong, slavery was a terrible thing and I wish to God we (NORTH and SOUTH) had never engaged in this evil (but BOTH did). For various reasons, we'd be a MUCH better Nation today had we abolished slavery from our beginnings. But never make the mistake in thinking that the War Between the States was about slavery (initially anyway) because it was taxation without adequate representation and the SOUTH was never treated fairly......still aren't and it was a shame at how the Fed could never forgive and forget. Instead, the fed gov. seemed to gloat over their victory through numbers.

We have survived and thrived as a Nation since those dark days but Lincoln (for whatever good he may or may not have intended) left our Nation weaker by denying the States the power and individuality that they were to have when our founders orchestrated. This was to be a Republic but a Republic we weren't during those dark days. We see this tyrannical gov. once again rearing its ugly head and it seems that the South and the most patriotic is once again their target. This time, however.....there is no evil bi-product to engage a war such as slavery (unless you consider the slavery that we know to be half the taxable population who work for others who can work but refuse to work).

[fj1200]

Sherman in Gaza | (http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=7793)

How dare VDH use a historical perspective when analyzing current day events in Gaza. Quite appalling.

[Drummond]

How dare VDH use a historical perspective when analyzing current day events in Gaza. Quite appalling.:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

This thread is discussing a matter that I'm not qualified to usefully comment on .. considering where I'm from. So I'll butt out in trying to discuss any detail of it.

But I can't help but observe, FJ, how predictable you are, from ....

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?46399-Hanson-Sherman-and-IDF&p=700608#post700608

:laugh2::laugh2:

[fj1200]

This thread is discussing a matter that I'm not qualified to usefully comment on ..

That hasn't really stopped you before. But you do like yourself some trolling, that I know.

[Kathianne]

How dare VDH use a historical perspective when analyzing current day events in Gaza. Quite appalling.

I know, as I said in the OP there are many from the South that haven't a problem understanding that if one wants to 'win' a war and keep the civilian casualties at a minimum, the answer is to hit them in supply and reinforcements. Thus they follow in Sherman's original footprints.

Did Sherman or Hanson or I claim 'no civilians hurt?' Sherman said, "Total War," never attempting to excuse anything. What many historians learned though is the burning of homes, crops, and livestock were from the aristocracy-those funding, leading, and most often fighting for the Confederacy. Did that leave those with small farms; those in the cities; and women/children of the aristocracy in bad conditions? Of course, the ravages of which were still evident 50 years later.

What the point was though, by hitting them in the supply lines, taking out the Confederacy's sources for money and men, there were fewer lives lost in the long run. Hanson implies that if it had been Grant, rather than Sherman, the 'total war' would have been even more brutal with more lives lost.

[Gunny]

https://sp3.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608026116493345155&pid=15.1&w=126&h=161&p=0

Just look at this animal!

Yep, you can lump me in with Tyr and Gunny on this one. Why should we be so passionate about (AGAINST) Sherman.....same could be asked of the Jews (not that I'm comparing all aspects of the War Between the States and the Holocaust). If we lose our compasion, we lose our ability to remember and make certain that these things never again happen. You see, we see Sherman as the gov. he represented at the time as well as the gov. that does not represent the people TODAY. As many know, I have much Cherokee in my blood and I also share some heritage with General Jackson (president Jackson) and I can't stand that guy. To me, Jackson is one of the lousiest presidents we've had (right up there with Wilson, Carter and B.O.). Sherman was an SOB and he and his ilk did great harm to the Union and many such war criminals caused more lives to be lost cuz these animals left many feeling that they truly MUST fight or fall victim to an over powering gov. that had no problem in murdering, looting and raping any more than they had a problem in starting the war by taxing the South more and more unfairly than it did the North with an unequal representation. Folks can try to re-write history all they want but for many Southerners, the truth was passed down through the generations which preserved much of history. To the victor, goes the writing of history but somehow the truth always surfaces and if we fail to remember history or our dark days, we will be doomed to repeat it. I see dark clouds on the horizon and we are seeing a gov. that is just as corrupt and evil as some of our days from the birth and youth of this Nation.

NICE post. :clap:

Except the part about Jackson. That dude didn't take any crap and was at least in your face. And I happen to be a direct descendent of John Quincy Adams, his worst enemy. JQ was a puritan jackass, and he and Jackson had a smear campaign going that would rival Fox vs CNN today. At least Jackson would just kick your butt. JQ used the media.

[Gunny]

I know, as I said in the OP there are many from the South that haven't a problem understanding that if one wants to 'win' a war and keep the civilian casualties at a minimum, the answer is to hit them in supply and reinforcements. Thus they follow in Sherman's original footprints.

Did Sherman or Hanson or I claim 'no civilians hurt?' Sherman said, "Total War," never attempting to excuse anything. What many historians learned though is the burning of homes, crops, and livestock were from the aristocracy-those funding, leading, and most often fighting for the Confederacy. Did that leave those with small farms; those in the cities; and women/children of the aristocracy in bad conditions? Of course, the ravages of which were still evident 50 years later.

What the point was though, by hitting them in the supply lines, taking out the Confederacy's sources for money and men, there were fewer lives lost in the long run. Hanson implies that if it had been Grant, rather than Sherman, the 'total war' would have been even more brutal with more lives lost.

You are correct. To a point. The tactic worked. But ...

There was no money, and no men left in Georgia when Sherman cut a swathe through the state. Sherman turned his army loose on the countryside. Inexcusable conduct for a military commander. Cutting the lines of supply and communication could have been accomplished without terrorizing women and children and destroying everything in their path. Cutting the railway hub in Atlanta, in fact, DID accomplish that. The South was done at that point.

You're not going to subjugate the people. Look at the hatred that STILL exists. A lot of it is blind, but it isn't one-sided. Yankees sneer at us and look down their noses like we're second class citizens to this day. Call us hicks, rednecks, hillbillies ... while y'all live in your miserable dirty little cities where there is no warmth nor love. Y'all are the most cold-blooded, cut-throat people I've ever come across. Just going through the motion of being part of the machine. THAT is what beat the South. The machine.

And if we suck so bad, how come y'all snowbirds are all over the place? Don't have any jobs or sunshine in your miserable little cities?

Now, this is more of an editorial on my part. It isn't aimed at Kathianne personally in any way. I just happened to pick her post to respond to. I have all the respect in the world for her. Not so much the topic.