This is What is Really Going on in Gaza Right Now

[Jeff]

A real view of what is going on in Gaza right now.


http://youtu.be/azd4FyJzvEw

[jafar00]

Well, it's not from Gaza.

It's actually one of Assad's propaganda videos so can be completely disregarded as fake.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnwNpAL3GvA

But hey, if it helps suppress the guilt you feel about Gaza just believe that the kids there are all terrorists so Israel can continue to blow them into little pieces with their bombs without criticism.

[jimnyc]

Must have learned from the Pallies, who have for years made fake videos and been busted hundreds of times. Always some that fall for the cockroach terrorist footage though.

[Daniyel]

Well, it's not from Gaza.

It's actually one of Assad's propaganda videos so can be completely disregarded as fake.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnwNpAL3GvA

But hey, if it helps suppress the guilt you feel about Gaza just believe that the kids there are all terrorists so Israel can continue to blow them into little pieces with their bombs without criticism.
Hamas support Assad.

[jafar00]

American kids also shoot AK47s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61dOAzoLcT4

[jimnyc]

American kids also shoot AK47s

again, LEGALLY, and in appropriate areas - and NOT in the name of God and NOT to take out the Jewish folks they are taught to hate from birth.

[jafar00]

again, LEGALLY, and in appropriate areas - and NOT in the name of God and NOT to take out the Jewish folks they are taught to hate from birth.

Since when did they do it in the name of God in your propaganda video?

[jimnyc]

Since when did they do it in the name of God in your propaganda video?

The animals worldwide in Islam that are violent (the majority) are continually putting God and religion into their fighting. 99% of the Islamic violence is associated with "Allahu Akbar" or some other religious bullshit.

[NightTrain]

American kids also shoot AK47s

My kids and I have also shot an AK-47, a legitimate one made in Romania during the Cold War that a friend of mine owns. It's fun to shoot.

We've fired dozens of different calibers & makes. What's your point?

[aboutime]

Since when did they do it in the name of God in your propaganda video?


jafar. IT WASN'T IN THE NAME OF GOD. "ALLAH SNACKBAR" means...enjoy the party.

Just ask someone who was injured, shot, or lost limbs while your FRIENDS of the Religion of Peace BLEW THEMSELVES UP....Yelling??????

[Drummond]

Hamas support Assad.:clap::clap::clap:

[Drummond]

Well, it's not from Gaza.

It's actually one of Assad's propaganda videos so can be completely disregarded as fake.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnwNpAL3GvA

But hey, if it helps suppress the guilt you feel about Gaza just believe that the kids there are all terrorists so Israel can continue to blow them into little pieces with their bombs without criticism.

I just want to ask ..

It's been pointed out, Jafar, that Hamas support Assad. So, taking that into consideration ... if you see the video you're discussing as Assad propaganda, and you're dismissive of it, as such, on those grounds .. you must surely agree that Hamas propaganda should be as easily dismissed ??

Let's have your agreement, stated on this forum, that pro-Hamas propaganda deserves to be summarily dismissed. Go for it !

That's the trouble with propaganda, Jafar ... it invariably isn't grounded in reality. Hamas propaganda, of course, is certainly no exception.

[aboutime]

I just want to ask ..

It's been pointed out, Jafar, that Hamas support Assad. So, taking that into consideration ... if you see the video you're discussing as Assad propaganda, and you're dismissive of it, as such, on those grounds .. you must surely agree that Hamas propaganda should be as easily dismissed ??

Let's have your agreement, stated on this forum, that pro-Hamas propaganda deserves to be summarily dismissed. Go for it !

That's the trouble with propaganda, Jafar ... it invariably isn't grounded in reality. Hamas propaganda, of course, is certainly no exception.


Sir Drummond. All of jafar's attempts to repeat his propaganda agenda, based on proven lies from Hamas supporters. Really tends to do all of us one favor after another.
With every post jafar tries to inject here...claiming all of them are true. One might think he'd get tired of selling SHIT SANDWICHES...and calling them Delicious, Odorless, Hamaswiches. :)

[jafar00]

My kids and I have also shot an AK-47, a legitimate one made in Romania during the Cold War that a friend of mine owns. It's fun to shoot.

We've fired dozens of different calibers & makes. What's your point?

It's probably legal to shoot an AK47 in Syria too. What's the point of the OP then? Not to mention the OP was designed to falsely portray Gaza in order to dehumanise the children that are being killed every day there right now.

[aboutime]

It's probably legal to shoot an AK47 in Syria too. What's the point of the OP then? Not to mention the OP was designed to falsely portray Gaza in order to dehumanise the children that are being killed every day there right now.


jafar. IF YOU DEMAND TO STICK WITH THE OP. How bout You telling us only the HONEST facts about what is taking place in Gaza...RIGHT NOW?

You continue to repeat the lies of Hamas, and always manage to circumvent actual facts that help us identify you, and Hamas as the Liars you laughingly believe...we won't recognize.

[Drummond]

jafar. IF YOU DEMAND TO STICK WITH THE OP. How bout You telling us only the HONEST facts about what is taking place in Gaza...RIGHT NOW?

You continue to repeat the lies of Hamas, and always manage to circumvent actual facts that help us identify you, and Hamas as the Liars you laughingly believe...we won't recognize.:clap::clap::clap:

OK, Jafar, how about it ? Will you start to deal with an HONEST representation of Hamas ?

Or will you persist in pushing propaganda Hamas would be pleased to see you continue with ?

When it comes down to it, when you're tested, you prove yourself to be loyal to the terrorist side in all of this. Demonisation of one side .. a sympathetic support of the other.

Here's something for you to deal with, then. Hamas's breakage of the 24 hour ceasefire. If Gaza has been hit as hard as the Hamas-friendly BBC claims, why don't Hamas take whatever humanitarian opportunities they can get ? Why fire yet MORE rockets to Israel, and risk yet more of a response from Israel ?

Perhaps it's a measure of their hatred of Israel.

Anything familiar in that, Jafar ?

[jafar00]

jafar. IF YOU DEMAND TO STICK WITH THE OP. How bout You telling us only the HONEST facts about what is taking place in Gaza...RIGHT NOW?

You continue to repeat the lies of Hamas, and always manage to circumvent actual facts that help us identify you, and Hamas as the Liars you laughingly believe...we won't recognize.

The OP is a Syrian video portrayed as what is happening in "GAZA right now". Is that the actual fact to which you refer to?


:clap::clap::clap:

OK, Jafar, how about it ? Will you start to deal with an HONEST representation of Hamas ?

Or will you persist in pushing propaganda Hamas would be pleased to see you continue with ?

When it comes down to it, when you're tested, you prove yourself to be loyal to the terrorist side in all of this. Demonisation of one side .. a sympathetic support of the other.

Here's something for you to deal with, then. Hamas's breakage of the 24 hour ceasefire. If Gaza has been hit as hard as the Hamas-friendly BBC claims, why don't Hamas take whatever humanitarian opportunities they can get ? Why fire yet MORE rockets to Israel, and risk yet more of a response from Israel ?

Perhaps it's a measure of their hatred of Israel.

Anything familiar in that, Jafar ?

Hamas broke the "ceasefire" because a ceasefire doesn't exist if Israel continues all other operations except levelling entire neighbourhoods with missiles. Israel made no concessions.

[jimnyc]

Hamas broke the "ceasefire" because a ceasefire doesn't exist if Israel continues all other operations except levelling entire neighbourhoods with missiles. Israel made no concessions.

Good, then the bombardment in Gaza continues. Way to go, Hamas!!

[aboutime]

jafar intentionally, and unknowingly, proves, again, and again....

HE HOLDS THE RECORD FOR "STUPID".

From this day forward. Let no man, or woman alive allow anyone to take jafar's record away.

We need his example as a reminder.

Jafar. Please post a photo of you, we can use to place in the AL JAZZERA DICTIONARY, next to the word STUPID.

[Drummond]

The OP is a Syrian video portrayed as what is happening in "GAZA right now". Is that the actual fact to which you refer to?



Hamas broke the "ceasefire" because a ceasefire doesn't exist if Israel continues all other operations except levelling entire neighbourhoods with missiles. Israel made no concessions.

Let me guess. What you're really saying is that Hamas won't genuinely recognise any ceasefire unless Israel makes concessions which disadvantage it, to an extent that Israel would have to be bonkers to agree to. Yes ?

Which rather defies the 'we want to defend our people' argument that Hamas wishes the world to believe of them. In truth, Hamas goals are purely aggressive ones, furthering relentless hostility to the very EXISTENCE of Israel.

You, Jafar, the supposed 'man of peace', should deplore Hamas's arrogance and warmongering belligerence, and be posting accordingly. But all pretense of that has now evaporated. Hasn't it ?

[jafar00]

Let me guess. What you're really saying is that Hamas won't genuinely recognise any ceasefire unless Israel makes concessions which disadvantage it, to an extent that Israel would have to be bonkers to agree to. Yes ?

Which rather defies the 'we want to defend our people' argument that Hamas wishes the world to believe of them. In truth, Hamas goals are purely aggressive ones, furthering relentless hostility to the very EXISTENCE of Israel.

You, Jafar, the supposed 'man of peace', should deplore Hamas's arrogance and warmongering belligerence, and be posting accordingly. But all pretense of that has now evaporated. Hasn't it ?

In order to have an agreement, you need to give both sides something.

For Israel, it is an end to rockets and the tunnels. For Palestinians, it is the right to live on their land in peace without Israel killing, kidnapping and besieging them.

The solution is really that simple, but Israel refuses to pull back behind their borders and leave Palestine alone.

[Drummond]

In order to have an agreement, you need to give both sides something.

For Israel, it is an end to rockets and the tunnels. For Palestinians, it is the right to live on their land in peace without Israel killing, kidnapping and besieging them.

The solution is really that simple, but Israel refuses to pull back behind their borders and leave Palestine alone.

Interesting. You've 'conveniently' forgotten what started the hostilities, haven't you ?

A reminder, then:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28097164


Three Israeli teenagers who were abducted earlier this month in the West Bank have been found dead.

An Israeli military spokesman said their bodies were found in a pit near the town of Halhul, north of Hebron.

Naftali Frenkel and Gilad Shaar, both aged 16, and 19-year-old Eyal Yifrach were last seen at a junction near Hebron as they hitchhiked home.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Hamas was responsible, a claim the Palestinian militant group has denied.

At the start of a meeting of the Israeli security cabinet, Mr Netanyahu said the three were "kidnapped and murdered in cold blood by animals" and promised: "Hamas will pay".

But Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri told the AFP news agency that any action to punish the movement would "open the gates of hell".

So. How about, Jafar, ISRAELIS HAVING THE RIGHT TO LIVE ON THEIR LAND WITHOUT 'PALESTINIANS' (GAZANS/HAMAS) KIDNAPPING AND KILLING THEM ??

'Indignant', are you, Jafar, about savageries you claim from the OPPOSITE side to that which actually started it all ????

Since you regard such an argument as valid, I now expect you to apply it to the side which first suffered it ... THE ISRAELIS !!

Come on, Jafar. You, the 'man of peace', must surely want the savageries begun ON THE HAMAS SIDE, AGAINST ISRAELIS, to end ?

Here's a thought. Why not agree with me that the root cause of this is Hamas belligerence ? Isn't it obvious that SO MUCH would be solved, if only Hamas would verifiably disarm, and renounce violence ?

You, as a 'man of peace', and, ahem, 'no friend to terrorists', must SURELY welcome such a move ? Yes ??

So let's see your agreement with that !

[Jeff]

In order to have an agreement, you need to give both sides something.

For Israel, it is an end to rockets and the tunnels. For Palestinians, it is the right to live on their land in peace without Israel killing, kidnapping and besieging them.

The solution is really that simple, but Israel refuses to pull back behind their borders and leave Palestine alone.

jafar Hamas can't go 24 hours ( cease fire ) without sending rockets into Israel, Israel has stated there will be peace when there is peace in there skies

I think it was Drummond who posted a interview with one of your terrorist friends and they said they will never live along side Israel in peace, so please tell me how simple it is again :rolleyes:

[logroller]

Let me guess. What you're really saying is that Hamas won't genuinely recognise any ceasefire unless Israel makes concessions which disadvantage it, to an extent that Israel would have to be bonkers to agree to. Yes ?

Which rather defies the 'we want to defend our people' argument that Hamas wishes the world to believe of them. In truth, Hamas goals are purely aggressive ones, furthering relentless hostility to the very EXISTENCE of Israel.

You, Jafar, the supposed 'man of peace', should deplore Hamas's arrogance and warmongering belligerence, and be posting accordingly. But all pretense of that has now evaporated. Hasn't it ?
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't concessions usually (read:almost always) giving up something grudgingly in order to reach an agreement?
Israel isn't saintly by any means-- they have their crosses to bear in the actions they've taken against non-warring parties. But While I'm copacetic to the Palestinian cause of sovereignty, it must be reciprocal; thus the crux of the issue, IMO, is Hamas refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist (that's the 'bonkers' scenario to which you refer I presume) Palestine must concede Israel's sovereignty first and foremost if there is any hope of peace in the region. I respect jafar as man but he must come to grips with the counterproductive nature of the 'Zionist invader' narrative.

[jimnyc]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't concessions usually (read:almost always) giving up something grudgingly in order to reach an agreement?
Israel isn't saintly by any means-- they have their crosses to bear in the actions they've taken against non-warring parties. But While I'm copacetic to the Palestinian cause of sovereignty, it must be reciprocal; thus the crux of the issue, IMO, is Hamas refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist (that's the 'bonkers' scenario to which you refer I presume) Palestine must concede Israel's sovereignty first and foremost if there is any hope of peace in the region. I respect jafar as man but he must come to grips with the counterproductive nature of the 'Zionist invader' narrative.

I think if pushed, Israel will unblock Gaza and stop the attacks. They can work on a better peace deal from there. Problem is, their "government" aka Hamas said this will never happen. They want ALL or nothing, back to 1948. They will get nothing then. But the Muslim community around the world is whining about Israel beating the crap out of them - but they're in a position of no choice - because the pallies would prefer to shoot bombs and make impossible demands.

[namvet]

the IDF is trying to exterminate Hamas. I agree. their nothing but fuckin' animals anyway so send em all to hell

[Drummond]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't concessions usually (read:almost always) giving up something grudgingly in order to reach an agreement?
Israel isn't saintly by any means-- they have their crosses to bear in the actions they've taken against non-warring parties. But While I'm copacetic to the Palestinian cause of sovereignty, it must be reciprocal; thus the crux of the issue, IMO, is Hamas refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist (that's the 'bonkers' scenario to which you refer I presume) Palestine must concede Israel's sovereignty first and foremost if there is any hope of peace in the region. I respect jafar as man but he must come to grips with the counterproductive nature of the 'Zionist invader' narrative.

Er'm ... YES, Logroller !!!

I've already posted on this. I've posted a transcript of a BBC interview - televised - with the Hamas leader. He was repeatedly picked up on this very point, and despite repeated questioning, absolutely refused to concede Israel's right to exist.

I fail to understand why anyone has doubts on this point. Why do you ?? The Hamas Charter is clear on this as well ... it's considered a religious duty, certainly by Hamas, to rid the entire region of any Israeli presence .. i.e, to see to it that Israel's demise happens.

This is the one point that Hamas will NEVER bend on.

And it's the chief reason - besides all their terrorist savagery !!! - why the destruction of Hamas is mandated. It's Hamas which is the chief problem in all of this - it EXISTS to destroy Israel.

Concessions agreed upon which fall short of this only buy temporary peace. The one way for permanent peace to be seen, short of Israal being driven into the sea, is to see to it that Hamas is utterly smashed.

[aboutime]

I feel. This time. If Israel doesn't do the job, all the way, and get rid of the Hamas strongholds/tunnel systems used to enter Israel.

We will be seeing this taking place again if Hamas gets another phony Cease-fire that enables them to RE-ARM with Syrian, and Iranian weapons.

I know they can't keep playing WACKAMOLE...as they have done in the past. So Netanyahu should keep ignoring the OBUMMER, KERRY, and the U.N. that has never been on the Israeli side.

Do the JOB right the first time, and there's no need to do the JOB again.

(a quote by aboutime)

[Kathianne]

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't concessions usually (read:almost always) giving up something grudgingly in order to reach an agreement?
Israel isn't saintly by any means-- they have their crosses to bear in the actions they've taken against non-warring parties. But While I'm copacetic to the Palestinian cause of sovereignty, it must be reciprocal; thus the crux of the issue, IMO, is Hamas refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist (that's the 'bonkers' scenario to which you refer I presume) Palestine must concede Israel's sovereignty first and foremost if there is any hope of peace in the region. I respect jafar as man but he must come to grips with the counterproductive nature of the 'Zionist invader' narrative.
Where have you been for the past 40 years? Ok, assuming you are under 50, this has been the salient reason there are not two states today.

Israel wouldn't have 'occupied' lands if a treaty could have been had.

Do you really think you're some genius that others never got the salient points?

[logroller]

Er'm ... YES, Logroller !!!


I've already posted on this. I've posted a transcript of a BBC interview - televised - with the Hamas leader. He was repeatedly picked up on this very point, and despite repeated questioning, absolutely refused to concede Israel's right to exist.


I fail to understand why anyone has doubts on this point. Why do you ??
I fail to understand why you presume I have doubts on that point when I clearly expressed my opinion on the crux of the issue. I think what you perceive as doubt is communicating in a manner that isn't the verbal equivalent of bashing someone over the head. Excuse me for not reading your posts, but I find your repetition is matched only by intentional distortion of another's position. The above is case in point.





Where have you been for the past 40 years? Ok, assuming you are under 50, this has been the salient reason there are not two states today.

Israel wouldn't have 'occupied' lands if a treaty could have been had.

Do you really think you're some genius that others never got the salient points?
Oh snarks-- I didn't realize this was the sarcasm forum; otherwise I'd have titled my post as the thesis for my doctorate in international relations.

If I speak in plain and simple concepts its because I believe there are those who would need to understand. Clearly, that's not you and, were there contention upon my statement, by all means disagree, but I see little point in replying just to be an asshole-- you're a moderator, for DP's sake, just ignore that which you don't feel is revelatory. You set the tone and the above is piss-poor.

The fact is there are those who, to their own detriment, do not accept the concept of Israel as a nation and many of those have influence over the Palestinians and Arabs at large. I could do as many others and berate them, their politics and their religion as a scourge upon mankind-- I'd certainly garner much applause at DP for doing so, but what does that change, for the better? You tell me, based upon your sage life experience, how do you plan to change generations of explicit ideological conflict?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I fail to understand why you presume I have doubts on that point when I clearly expressed my opinion on the crux of the issue. I think what you perceive as doubt is communicating in a manner that isn't the verbal equivalent of bashing someone over the head. Excuse me for not reading your posts, but I find your repetition is matched only by intentional distortion of another's position. The above is case in point.





Oh snarks-- I didn't realize this was the sarcasm forum; otherwise I'd have titled my post as the thesis for my doctorate in international relations.

If I speak in plain and simple concepts its because I believe there are those who would need to understand. Clearly, that's not you and, were there contention upon my statement, by all means disagree, but I see little point in replying just to be an asshole-- you're a moderator, for DP's sake, just ignore that which you don't feel is revelatory. You set the tone and the above is piss-poor.

The fact is there are those who, to their own detriment, do not accept the concept of Israel as a nation and many of those have influence over the Palestinians and Arabs at large. I could do as many others and berate them, their politics and their religion as a scourge upon mankind-- I'd certainly garner much applause at DP for doing so, but what does that change, for the better? You tell me, based upon your sage life experience, how do you plan to change generations of explicit ideological conflict?

With 1400+ years of only very, very miniscule change on Islam your proposition that we infidels may somehow effect a change in its violence and intolerance is a great error IMHO. Not that it isn't a wonderful thought/hope but surely reality shows 1400+ years and no dents in this violent quasi political/military/ religious philosophy ! There has been no GREAT AND MUCH NEEDED Reformation because the reformers are kill by written commands in the Quran. AS THE ENTIRE THING IS A VICTORY BY BRUTE FORCE AND DECEIT!!!
Islam only stops or pauses when it is utterly defeated!
Absolute defeat is the answer previously applied.
Can be the only remedy because THEY reach for that exact same results.
They had a major split 1400 years ago and are still fighting about it.
How do you think an infidel can change the core of the religion!???-Tyr

[aboutime]

I fail to understand why you presume I have doubts on that point when I clearly expressed my opinion on the crux of the issue. I think what you perceive as doubt is communicating in a manner that isn't the verbal equivalent of bashing someone over the head. Excuse me for not reading your posts, but I find your repetition is matched only by intentional distortion of another's position. The above is case in point.





Oh snarks-- I didn't realize this was the sarcasm forum; otherwise I'd have titled my post as the thesis for my doctorate in international relations.

If I speak in plain and simple concepts its because I believe there are those who would need to understand. Clearly, that's not you and, were there contention upon my statement, by all means disagree, but I see little point in replying just to be an asshole-- you're a moderator, for DP's sake, just ignore that which you don't feel is revelatory. You set the tone and the above is piss-poor.

The fact is there are those who, to their own detriment, do not accept the concept of Israel as a nation and many of those have influence over the Palestinians and Arabs at large. I could do as many others and berate them, their politics and their religion as a scourge upon mankind-- I'd certainly garner much applause at DP for doing so, but what does that change, for the better? You tell me, based upon your sage life experience, how do you plan to change generations of explicit ideological conflict?


logroller. From the tone of your patronizing here. It sounds like you'd be better served if your 'thesis' first paid attention to Humanity, and Common sense. Both of which you seem terribly lacking in, and about.
Coming here, pretending to be the ALL KNOWING, ALL GRACIOUS sole source of experience you deny others have. Merely makes you look like the ideological False Prophet you so easily accuse of others.

[logroller]

With 1400+ years of only very, very miniscule change on Islam your proposition that we infidels may somehow effect a change in its violence and intolerance is a great error IMHO. Not that it isn't a wonderful thought/hope but surely reality shows 1400+ years and no dents in this violent quasi political/military/ religious philosophy ! There has been no GREAT AND MUCH NEEDED Reformation because the reformers are kill by written commands in the Quran. AS THE ENTIRE THING IS A VICTORY BY BRUTE FORCE AND DECEIT!!!
Islam only stops or pauses when it is utterly defeated!
Absolute defeat is the answer previously applied.
Can be the only remedy because THEY reach for that exact same results.
They had a major split 1400 years ago and are still fighting about it.
How do you think an infidel can change the core of the religion!???-Tyr
Absolute defeat... So is forced conversion your plan: genocide? You're free to hold that opinion but I disagree. How many Muslims do you even know? I'm guessing jafar is the extent of it. Its convenient to put this faceless boogieman of Islam in your crosshairs but understand that these are people--human beings who have done you no harm whatsoever and you're calling for their absolute defeat. There are plentiful moderate Muslims who don't kill and oppress and pursuing their absolute defeat only serves to manifest extremism and further violence. I'm reminded yet again of the quote, 'stare long enough into the abyss, and the abyss stares also unto you.' You're becoming the evil you seek to eradicate.


and. 'We infidels'; you got a mouse in your pocket???, because I'm no infidel-- I have faith in the mercy of God. I have friends who are muslim and there is no ill will, whatsoever. I feasted with them just yesterday. They know I'm true to a loving and peaceful faith and they see me as brethren.

[Drummond]

Absolute defeat... So is forced conversion your plan: genocide? You're free to hold that opinion but I disagree. How many Muslims do you even know? I'm guessing jafar is the extent of it. Its convenient to put this faceless boogieman of Islam in your crosshairs but understand that these are people--human beings who have done you no harm whatsoever and you're calling for their absolute defeat. There are plentiful moderate Muslims who don't kill and oppress and pursuing their absolute defeat only serves to manifest extremism and further violence. I'm reminded yet again of the quote, 'stare long enough into the abyss, and the abyss stares also unto you.' You're becoming the evil you seek to eradicate.


and. 'We infidels'; you got a mouse in your pocket???, because I'm no infidel-- I have faith in the mercy of God. I have friends who are muslim and there is no ill will, whatsoever. I feasted with them just yesterday. They know I'm true to a loving and peaceful faith and they see me as brethren.

Your attack on Tyr is completely uncalled for.

Tyr did not create the reality he's facing. He's just approaching it realistically. As you should. As should we all.

Consider Hamas - and their total unwillingness either to bend to the circumstances they're in, and to do so in consideration of all the civilian deaths of recent days. Hamas have their Islamic fanaticism, their dedication to a totally destructive agenda ... and they WILL NOT give it up.

Of course they won't. They consider it a religious duty to continue on. They are consumed by their fanatical mindset, and loyal to the creed that created it.

More will die in Gaza .. this has to happen, because HAMAS WILLS IT. They COULD renounce violence. They COULD verifiably disarm. But we'll see none of that. Moreover ... will we see ANY concession from ordinary Gazans that they should ??

Face up to the unbending, remorseless nature of Islam, and what we see from its adherents ... 'spiced up' by disgusting race-hatred against Israel.

--- Of the lethal kind.

Surrender to that race hate ? Tolerance of it, and all it brings, Logroller ? OR ... a resolve to see such an evil expunged from this world. Because unless something of the sort happens, there will never be an end to it.

What is better, Logroller ? YOU tell ME.

[jimnyc]

and. 'We infidels'; you got a mouse in your pocket???, because I'm no infidel-- I have faith in the mercy of God. I have friends who are muslim and there is no ill will, whatsoever. I feasted with them just yesterday. They know I'm true to a loving and peaceful faith and they see me as brethren.

If you aren't Muslim and don't convert - you ARE an infidel, even if a friend. I have Muslim friends from at least 5 different nations, and they all tell me the same, and we are all very good friends. In the majority of Islam, "infidel" means you are a non-Muslim.

[jimnyc]

If you aren't Muslim and don't convert - you ARE an infidel, even if a friend. I have Muslim friends from at least 5 different nations, and they all tell me the same, and we are all very good friends. In the majority of Islam, "infidel" means you are a non-Muslim.

Infidel is an English language word commonly used to translate the equivalent Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic) language word for non-Muslims; kafir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir) (sometimes "kaafir", "kufr" or "kuffar"), and the equivalent Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Language) loanword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword) gâvur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giaour), literally the one who "covers" and "conceals", is usually translated as "disbeliever"; i.e. in English translations of the Quranic verse, 109:1,[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-15)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-16)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-17) Other terms sometimes synonymously used in Islamic literature for infidel are shirk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_%28Islam%29), mushirk, and mushrikun.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-18)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-19)

In the earliest recited verses of the Qur'an, such as Al-Kafirun, the term kafir simply divided the Meccan community into believers and unbelievers. In later recited verses, particularly those recited after the Hijra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28Islam%29) in 622 AD, the concept of infidel - kafir - was expanded upon, with Jews and Christians included.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-Campo.2C_Juan_Eduardo_2009_page_421-20) The expanded term kafir refers to anyone who satisfies one or more of the following conditions - practices idolatry of any form, does not accept the absolute oneness of God, denies Muhammed as Prophet, ignores God's ayah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayah) (evidence or signs), or rejects belief in resurrection and final judgment. Jews were condemned as infidels for their disbelief in God's ayah, Christians were condemned as infidels for their belief in the Trinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity), which the Qur'an declared as a form of polytheism.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-Campo.2C_Juan_Eduardo_2009_page_421-20)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-22)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-Waldman.2C_Marilyn_Robinson_1968-23) Certain sects of Islam, such as Wahhabism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement), include as kafir those Muslims who undertake Sufi shrine pilgrimage and follow Shia teachings about Imams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-24)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-25)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-26)

[logroller]

Your attack on Tyr is completely uncalled for.
What is it that you consider an attack? He said "absolute defeat"-- what is that, precisely? Don't be a pussy about what you what you are willing to do. I can accept a reality but be frank about it.
You and he speak of the reality of the situation, but what is the reality of absolute defeat? Tell me you're unwilling to see through to genocide if that's what absolute defeat requires.

[Drummond]

[/B]
What is it that you consider an attack? He said "absolute defeat"-- what is that, precisely? Don't be a pussy about what you what you are willing to do. I can accept a reality but be frank about it.
You and he speak of the reality of the situation, but what is the reality of absolute defeat? Tell me you're unwilling to see through to genocide if that's what absolute defeat requires.

In post #30, you said you don't read my posts (.. even though you're replying to them). Perhaps I should reciprocate ?

But .. where did the 'genocide' word come from, anyway ? I've quickly checked Tyr's recent postings. I have not seen it stated in them.

If you read Tyr's point, he has been talking about ISLAM being defeated. A religion is not the people who follow it .. it isn't a person at all. It is a belief system.

There are ways and means to defeat a belief system without resorting to out-and-out genocide. You could sap the morale of those following it. You could discredit it. You could force people to understand why, in this day and age, it should be abandoned, consigned to more primitive, less civilised ages.

I'm not ruling out the reality that 'people' (.. as you know, I do not classify terrorists as such ..) may have to die, presumably in large numbers, before this is achieved. Such may be necessary, for example, to break the morale of other followers, to show that such savagery can have no future. But you presume a lot to suppose that outright genocide HAS to occur.

It all depends how you view this, and the way others perceive issues, as to what may ultimately be necessary. 'Pockets' of Islam may involve teaching a much-needed lesson to everyone else. Take Hamas ... if their insistence upon their own desire to destroy Israel / Israelis cannot be broken (I see no reason to believe it WILL end) .. then maybe the destruction of Hamas, with whatever number of fatalities this takes, will be the only answer.

This is why I oppose any let-up from Israel. I don't believe Hamas will choose to stop its savageries unless forced to.

But who can say what will follow from that ? Maybe other Islamists may understand that forces ranged against them are too strong to be taken on. Maybe recruitments will nosedive.

This may all be wishful thinking. But my point is this .. you do what is NECESSARY to defeat a mortal enemy. No more than that, because otherwise, that makes you as bad as the enemy you oppose.

But no LESS .. either. Because to pull punches means that the opposition interprets that as weakness, and is encouraged to continue.

I'm also not forgetting that terrorists, in order to be such, and to be content with it, are provably less than human. A human being worthy of the title would be too human to commit terrorism. Too caring, too empathic. Therefore, the demise of terrorists falls short of your consideration that HUMAN BEINGS are being killed, when terrorists die.

So, adding all this up, I suggest that you abandon your 'genocide' description (.. which appears to come from YOU ?). Too much argues against accepting such a thing as an applicable outcome we must see unfold. You do what you MUST to defeat terrorism, to defeat what drives it. As to exactly what that entails ... neither you nor I can judge where that will lead.

Neither too much, nor too little. Whatever must be done to deal with an enemy, according to the realities involved. Realities, after all, which are NOT of our making !

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Absolute defeat... So is forced conversion your plan: genocide? You're free to hold that opinion but I disagree. How many Muslims do you even know? I'm guessing jafar is the extent of it. Its convenient to put this faceless boogieman of Islam in your crosshairs but understand that these are people--human beings who have done you no harm whatsoever and you're calling for their absolute defeat. There are plentiful moderate Muslims who don't kill and oppress and pursuing their absolute defeat only serves to manifest extremism and further violence. I'm reminded yet again of the quote, 'stare long enough into the abyss, and the abyss stares also unto you.' You're becoming the evil you seek to eradicate.


and. 'We infidels'; you got a mouse in your pocket???, because I'm no infidel-- I have faith in the mercy of God. I have friends who are muslim and there is no ill will, whatsoever. I feasted with them just yesterday. They know I'm true to a loving and peaceful faith and they see me as brethren.

Absolute defeat is what we did to Japan, is that was that genocide!!??
Do not put words in my mouth. I was speaking of absolute defeat of their militancy not any damn genocide! I was speaking of forcing them to face reality of their evil and have a Reformation. Next time ask for an explanation before so erroneously jumping the gun!

Yes, infidel you are -- all on-muslims are "infidels".
Look it up Hoss.

Yes, I have met and know muslims in real life but am wise enough not to be close friends to snakes that would bite me(kill me) if their holy leader told them to. Just because you fail to see their truly absolute fanatical extremism does not mea others don't or shouldn't IMHO.
I did not put Jafar in my crosshairs.. He did however choose to defend Islam, its terrorism and try to do as they do-- garner appeasement by way of propaganda. I merely refuted that message and you agree with his lies.
Do not try to paint me black just because your ignorantly fail to see reality and the true massive threat.
This is my answer to his lies and it is a very long running one he fails to ever counter. Perhaps you will now try to counter it! Give it your best shot if you dare even try!
You will fail as has he and he ran away from it long, long ago!!!!!

1.
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?37131-Most-recent-muslim-terrorist-attacks

2.
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?36912-I-take-my-stand-you

[aboutime]

This is what you condone, and defend? Because YOU are the absolute final remedy?

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/terrortunnels-hamas-detonates-suicide-bomb-kidnaps-idf-soldier-just-90-mins-into-ceasefire/

[aboutime]

Absolute defeat is what we did to Japan, is that was that genocide!!??
Do not put words in my mouth. I was speaking of absolute defeat of their militancy not any damn genocide! I was speaking of forcing them to face reality of their evil and have a Reformation. Next time ask for an explanation before so erroneously jumping the gun!

Yes, infidel you are -- all on-muslims are "infidels".
Look it up Hoss.

Yes, I have met and know muslims in real life but am wise enough not to be close friends to snakes that would bite me(kill me) if their holy leader told them to. Just because you fail to see their truly absolute fanatical extremism does not mea others don't or shouldn't IMHO.
I did not put Jafar in my crosshairs.. He did however choose to defend Islam, its terrorism and try to do as they do-- garner appeasement by way of propaganda. I merely refuted that message and you agree with his lies.
Do not try to paint me black just because your ignorantly fail to see reality and the true massive threat.
This is my answer to his lies and it is a very long running one he fails to ever counter. Perhaps you will now try to counter it! Give it your best shot if you dare even try!
You will fail as has he and he ran away from it long, long ago!!!!!

1.

2.


Tyr. Log sounds like those people all of us knew back in the sixties, and seventies who always insisted they didn't have a HATEFUL, DISCRIMINATING bone in their body when....they always declared "Some of my best friends are Black people, Negro's, Colored."
Then they would go on by trying to Guarantee they didn't hate by saying "I went to school with them, lived in the same town with them, played ball with them," and most other excuses they always used to avoid letting their REAL FEELINGS escape accidentally. Just before they went to the "KKK" meetings.

[jafar00]

If you aren't Muslim and don't convert - you ARE an infidel, even if a friend. I have Muslim friends from at least 5 different nations, and they all tell me the same, and we are all very good friends. In the majority of Islam, "infidel" means you are a non-Muslim.

Ahl al Kitaab (Jews, Christians, Sabayans) are not considered Kaafir in the Qur'aan. You're sounding like an extremist Tyr.

[jimnyc]

Infidel is an English language word commonly used to translate the equivalent Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic) language word for non-Muslims; kafir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafir) (sometimes "kaafir", "kufr" or "kuffar"), and the equivalent Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Language) loanword (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loanword) gâvur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giaour), literally the one who "covers" and "conceals", is usually translated as "disbeliever"; i.e. in English translations of the Quranic verse, 109:1,[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-15)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-16)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-17) Other terms sometimes synonymously used in Islamic literature for infidel are shirk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_%28Islam%29), mushirk, and mushrikun.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-18)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-19)

In the earliest recited verses of the Qur'an, such as Al-Kafirun, the term kafir simply divided the Meccan community into believers and unbelievers. In later recited verses, particularly those recited after the Hijra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28Islam%29) in 622 AD, the concept of infidel - kafir - was expanded upon, with Jews and Christians included.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-Campo.2C_Juan_Eduardo_2009_page_421-20) The expanded term kafir refers to anyone who satisfies one or more of the following conditions - practices idolatry of any form, does not accept the absolute oneness of God, denies Muhammed as Prophet, ignores God's ayah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayah) (evidence or signs), or rejects belief in resurrection and final judgment. Jews were condemned as infidels for their disbelief in God's ayah, Christians were condemned as infidels for their belief in the Trinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity), which the Qur'an declared as a form of polytheism.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-Campo.2C_Juan_Eduardo_2009_page_421-20)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-21)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-22)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-Waldman.2C_Marilyn_Robinson_1968-23) Certain sects of Islam, such as Wahhabism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi_movement), include as kafir those Muslims who undertake Sufi shrine pilgrimage and follow Shia teachings about Imams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam).[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-24)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-25)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#cite_note-26)


Ahl al Kitaab (Jews, Christians, Sabayans) are not considered Kaafir in the Qur'aan. You're sounding like an extremist Tyr.

Sure, and I guess the article from the sources above are extremist? And someone who openly supports terrorism shouldn't refer to others as extremist, it's too damn funny. It's a FACT that islam considers anyone not a muslim to be an infidel and DEFINITELY someone who doesn't believe muhammed to be a prophet.

[aboutime]

Ahl al Kitaab (Jews, Christians, Sabayans) are not considered Kaafir in the Qur'aan. You're sounding like an extremist Tyr.


jafar. Most all of us here know YOU must call us extremists to defend your position, and the lies you live by.

It makes you feel better to call us Extremists, and Terrorists.

That's the recognizable technique we all have been seeing, and hearing for years.

It is the way REAL TERRORISTS, and REAL EXTREMISTS who call their religion PEACEFUL...while launching rockets, and using Human targets to win those VIRGINS who love Martyrs.

Sad thing is. NOT ONE OF YOU can prove becoming a Martyr is anything more than BEING DEAD.

[Jeff]

jafar. Most all of us here know YOU must call us extremists to defend your position, and the lies you live by.

It makes you feel better to call us Extremists, and Terrorists.

That's the recognizable technique we all have been seeing, and hearing for years.

It is the way REAL TERRORISTS, and REAL EXTREMISTS who call their religion PEACEFUL...while launching rockets, and using Human targets to win those VIRGINS who love Martyrs.

Sad thing is. NOT ONE OF YOU can prove becoming a Martyr is anything more than BEING DEAD.

AS this progresses and I watch jafar turn into the enemy I must admit him calling me these names I like, because honestly I would have no problem turning these cockroaches into the red mist he speaks of, so if that makes me a Extremist or a terrorist in his eyes than I will wear the title proudly !!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The extremists is the man that claims to love peace then reveals his support for a murdering terrorist group (Hamas) that has now fired over 3,500 missiles into Israel with the clear intent to kill as many innocent Israeli CITIZENS AS POSSIBLE!
And ignoring the tunnels built with money/ concrete donated to build hospital, schools and needed infrastructure for the Pali's in Gaza.
Hamas has now fired over a thousand large missiles that cost 600,000
dollars each! That is 600 million dollars spent on weapons instead of the food, medicine and other things the Pali's cry for, the world screams they need! Then add in the other 2500 missiles and the amount surely reaches 1 billion dollars worth of donations taken to buy weapons instead of feeding, clothing and caring for the Pali's in Gaza.
This should be all over the damn news but nary a peep from the leftist, terrorist loving bastards!
The lying propaganda on this conflict is truly and massively mind-boggling. No nation or group of citizens should have to endure such savage attacks and then have to face a clueless world demanding that they not strike back or not totally defeat the attacking enemy! Americans holding that insane view are even worse for nobody demanded that we just sit back and take it when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor. Yet look how many young Americans today are not even taught about that in our dem /lib schools.
Myself, I will slap hell out of any man that stands face to face with me and spouts that ffing lying propaganda that defends murdering terrorists!
Any man, any damn man!! In real life, I don't play... Fact.. -Tyr

[Drummond]

The extremists is the man that claims to love peace then reveals his support for a murdering terrorist group (Hamas) that has now fired over 3,500 missiles into Israel with the clear intent to kill as many innocent Israeli CITIZENS AS POSSIBLE!
And ignoring the tunnels built with money/ concrete donated to build hospital, schools and needed infrastructure for the Pali's in Gaza.
Hamas has now fired over a thousand large missiles that cost 600,000
dollars each! That is 600 million dollars spent on weapons instead of the food, medicine and other things the Pali's cry for, the world screams they need! Then add in the other 2500 missiles and the amount surely reaches 1 billion dollars worth of donations taken to buy weapons instead of feeding, clothing and caring for the Pali's in Gaza.
This should be all over the damn news but nary a peep from the leftist, terrorist loving bastards!
The lying propaganda on this conflict is truly and massively mind-boggling. No nation or group of citizens should have to endure such savage attacks and then have to face a clueless world demanding that they not strike back or not totally defeat the attacking enemy! Americans holding that insane view are even worse for nobody demanded that we just sit back and take it when the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor. Yet look how many young Americans today are not even taught about that in our dem /lib schools.
Myself, I will slap hell out of any man that stands face to face with me and spouts that ffing lying propaganda that defends murdering terrorists!
Any man, any damn man!! In real life, I don't play... Fact.. -Tyr:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Very well said !

Judging from all the pro-Gazan reports I've seen (.. from the BBC, naturally ..) .. substantial chunks of Gaza must need rebuilding. According to one report, even major work is necessary to get a viable electricity supply going again, throughout Gaza, and it was reckoned that it would take upwards of a YEAR to re-establish that.

But, will we see Hamas channel all the money they need into rebuilding, instead of on expenditure on rockets ? I somehow doubt it ....

I see this in one of two ways, given that Hamas doesn't stop its hostilities (... and, as I type, they've just restarted some !). One ... Hamas will just spend what money it has on yet more rockets and weaponry, when instead it should be helping Gazan victims of ITS hostile actions. In which case, they'll be proving that they care more about murdering Israelis than their 'own' citizens.

Or, two ... they will spend out on repairs and rebuilding their infrastructure, BUT, still fire yet more rockets Israel's way.

If the latter is true ... then, that absolutely shows the correctness of the Israeli action, if Hamas's stockpiles and offensive capabilities remain undiminished, regardless of all that Israel has done recently !!!

Either way, Hamas will prove yet again what an aggressor it is, and how there's a need to see them neutralised once and for all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Very well said !

Judging from all the pro-Gazan reports I've seen (.. from the BBC, naturally ..) .. substantial chunks of Gaza must need rebuilding. According to one report, even major work is necessary to get a viable electricity supply going again, throughout Gaza, and it was reckoned that it would take upwards of a YEAR to re-establish that.

But, will we see Hamas channel all the money they need into rebuilding, instead of on expenditure on rockets ? I somehow doubt it ....

I see this in one of two ways, given that Hamas doesn't stop its hostilities (... and, as I type, they've just restarted some !). One ... Hamas will just spend what money it has on yet more rockets and weaponry, when instead it should be helping Gazan victims of ITS hostile actions. In which case, they'll be proving that they care more about murdering Israelis than their 'own' citizens.

Or, two ... they will spend out on repairs and rebuilding their infrastructure, BUT, still fire yet more rockets Israel's way.

If the latter is true ... then, that absolutely shows the correctness of the Israeli action, if Hamas's stockpiles and offensive capabilities remain undiminished, regardless of all that Israel has done recently !!!

Either way, Hamas will prove yet again what an aggressor it is, and how there's a need to see them neutralised once and for all.
HAMAS, scum that murder, embrace pure hate. Have zero tolerance for those not savage pieces of Muslim shat like they are! ALL of them need to be destroyed by Israel. Gaza gets exactly what it voted into power. Any American citizen that donates to them aids terrorists which Federal law cites as a crime. Fact...
Yet the Obama scum loves and supports them, has Kerry the jackass doing the same. Sad what this nation endures because it fell for the greatest scam ever inflicted upon a nation.
Thanks to liberal school system, sold out media, dem party and government leeches! May a pox fall upon all their worthless, lying ,
arrogant and slimy heads.. -Tyr

[Drummond]

HAMAS, scum that murder, embrace pure hate. Have zero tolerance for those not savage pieces of Muslim shat like they are! ALL of them need to be destroyed by Israel. Gaza gets exactly what it voted into power. Any American citizen that donates to them aids terrorists which Federal law cites as a crime. Fact...
Yet the Obama scum loves and supports them, has Kerry the jackass doing the same. Sad what this nation endures because it fell for the greatest scam ever inflicted upon a nation.
Thanks to liberal school system, sold out media, dem party and government leeches! May a pox fall upon all their worthless, lying ,
arrogant and slimy heads.. -Tyr

Again, but of course ..... :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Supposing that peace overtures mean a damn to Hamas is to defy the reason Hamas even exists. Obama, Kerry, nonetheless supposedly 'believe' that such an arrangement could have a chance to be meaningfully entered into.

This is nonsense. So much so, that one has to question why they're trying for one ... it makes no sense, other than as a betrayal of Israel's interests and as a means of favouring terrorists with a tactical advantage they could never have earned.

Hamas has no interest in the welfare of the Gazans. If it did, it could disarm and renounce violence. This it will never do.

Israel's long-term interests are ONLY served by Hamas's destruction.

[gabosaurus]

One good thing about being in a foreign country (Italy) for a while is that they can report news from Gaza dispassionately. Italian TV showed Hamas targeting and shelling Israeli sites. They also showed a film of Israeli troops moving through a civilian camp shooting people. Including two women.

I have to wonder why Israel forces are in Gaza in the first place. If Israel removed all its forces from the Gaza strip, it could claim the high road in the peace process. The only Israelis opposed to this are the hard liners.
It is the same thing with Hamas, which is in no way a united entity. One faction of Hamas will openly participate in the peace process at the same time a different faction is making military overtures. The reason no one can negotiated with Hamas is that it is a multi-headed snake. Most terrorist factions are.

[Drummond]

One good thing about being in a foreign country (Italy) for a while is that they can report news from Gaza dispassionately. Italian TV showed Hamas targeting and shelling Israeli sites. They also showed a film of Israeli troops moving through a civilian camp shooting people. Including two women.

I have to wonder why Israel forces are in Gaza in the first place. If Israel removed all its forces from the Gaza strip, it could claim the high road in the peace process. The only Israelis opposed to this are the hard liners.
It is the same thing with Hamas, which is in no way a united entity. One faction of Hamas will openly participate in the peace process at the same time a different faction is making military overtures. The reason no one can negotiated with Hamas is that it is a multi-headed snake. Most terrorist factions are.


I have to wonder if you're joking.

I don't know if Italy's media is managing to report dispassionately. However, didn't you say that you were spending time in the UK as well ? When you did .. what did you make of the incessant BBC reports that could only reasonably be categorised as 'Hamas-friendly' ?

I thought everyone knew why Israeli forces were in Gaza ??? Partly (and primarily) to deliver Hamas a crushing blow, designed to neutralise Hamas as a threat to Israeli people .. also to destroy the tunnels which Hamas spent a considerable time in creating.

In practical terms, if Israel withdrew, this could only have the effect of giving Hamas a much-needed breather. Hamas can only gain .. Israel can only lose from such a move. And since when was Israel duty-bound to put international opinion above the security of its nation ???

If you seriously think that Hamas considers peace talks with anything else in mind than to use them for tactical advantage in longer-term hostilities against Israel, you are sadly deluded. Hamas not only wants Israel's demise, but its Charter is a document with mandates requiring unending efforts towards that goal.

[Kathianne]

Europe as a whole is an anti-Semitic cesspool. Thanks to our Euro-centric president, US is not far behind.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/why-are-liberals-opponents-of-israel-123416/

[gabosaurus]

I have to wonder if you're joking.

I don't know if Italy's media is managing to report dispassionately. However, didn't you say that you were spending time in the UK as well ? When you did .. what did you make of the incessant BBC reports that could only reasonably be categorised as 'Hamas-friendly' ?


You view them as "Hamas friendly" entirely because they don't openly support Israel like the U.S. media does. The BBC has always done a good job of splitting their views down the middle.

[Kathianne]

You view them as "Hamas friendly" entirely because they don't openly support Israel like the U.S. media does. The BBC has always done a good job of splitting their views down the middle.




The 'middle' isn't always or even usually correct in their pov.

[Drummond]

You view them as "Hamas friendly" entirely because they don't openly support Israel like the U.S. media does. The BBC has always done a good job of splitting their views down the middle.


:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Thanks for that one, Gabby ! Best laugh I've had all day, by quite a margin !

Did you watch ANY of the BBC's news output ?? Because if you did, you'll know that they screen, and re-screen, 'harrowing' scenes of 'those poor, downtrodden, brutalised Gazans' as major and leading 'news items' literally EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY.

Yes, they spend time on describing the Israeli side. They air pronouncements made by the Israeli PM, amongst others. But ... 'split down the middle' ? You can't be serious !!

I'd say that for every minute spent reporting from any semblance of 'an Israeli perspective', you'll get around eight minutes spent, at least, on reporting from the Gazan perspective. And consider this. There must SURELY be Gazans, somewhere, who think Hamas shares some of the blame for inviting Israeli reprisals ?? Tell me, Gabby, of ONE interview the BBC aired of ANY ONE SUCH GAZAN !!

You cannot, and well you know it. Because if the BBC were to do so, they'd put a dent in their relentless propaganda efforts !

If the BBC ever was 'unbiased', those days are long gone.

http://bbcwatch.org/


On August 8th the BBC News website published an article in the ‘Features & Analysis’ section of its Middle East page written by the head of statistics for BBC News, Anthony Reuben, and titled “Caution needed with Gaza casualty figures“.

Many readers are probably asking themselves what took so long. After all, the BBC had maintained an across the board policy on all its platforms of blindly quoting casualty figures provided by Hamas and/or assorted political NGOs for a whole month before the appearance of this article and the horse definitely long since bolted before this ‘closing the stable door’ article appeared. However, Reuben’s report does make some valid points.

“Nonetheless, if the Israeli attacks have been “indiscriminate”, as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women.” […]

“In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. […] But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.”

Unfortunately, the article also fails to adequately address many other crucial points.

One assumes that a fairly basic requirement of statistical analysis is that figures analysed must be accurate; after all, there is no value in carrying out analysis of faulty data. Reuben writes:

“In the Gaza conflict, most news organisations have been quoting from the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR), which leads a group of humanitarian organisations known as the Protection Cluster.”

He goes on to provide a link to UN OCHA’s report of August 6th but apparently has failed to recognize the fact that – as was reported here on July 13th – those “humanitarian organisations” which provide UN OCHA’s data are in fact NGOs with a political agenda which includes – as was reported here on July 18th – a campaign of lawfare against Israel with a vested interest in the inflation of civilian casualty numbers. The very fact that a UN body works with such NGOs and amplifies and enables their agenda should be a matter of interest to discerning journalists. It isn’t, of course.

Neither does Reuben appear to make the connection between the already partisan stance taken by the office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights which – even before the hostilities have ended and the picture has become clear, has repeatedly voiced evidence-free accusations of ‘war crimes’ – and its adoption and amplification of figures promoted by political NGOs.

Reuben cites and links to the recent New York Times report on the topic of casualty figures, but fails to note that article’s inadequacies. Likewise he fails to bring to audience attention relevant issues recently noted here such as summary executions carried out by Hamas, the use of human shields, casualties from shortfall missiles and Hamas’ use of child soldiers. The ITIC has to date analysed some 450 names from the casualty lists provided by the Hamas run Gaza health ministry and their findings can be seen here and here.

Despite its shortcomings, Anthony Reuben’s article is of course a welcome – if very tardy – step in the right direction as far as the BBC is concerned. It would of course be appropriate for such information to be made available to BBC television and radio audiences in addition to website users and for a link to this article to be standard insertion into all written BBC reports citing casualty figures.

However, also on the morning August 8th, the BBC News website’s Middle East page published another article titled “Gaza conflict: The hundreds who lost their lives“.

Remarkably, that article is devoted entirely to largely graphical representation of the same UN OCHA statistics which the other article states must be treated with caution and it egregiously erases all mention of the crucial context of attacks by terrorists on Israeli forces operating in the Gaza Strip.

“Many took refuge in shelters run by the United Nations, including schools. However, these UN schools also came under fire, including in North Gaza, Jabaliya and Rafah.”

The article also includes some glaring inaccuracies with regard to Israeli casualties ....

Yes, Gabby. The BBC's biases are now so bad that there is a Website out there devoted to exposing them !

[aboutime]

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:

Thanks for that one, Gabby ! Best laugh I've had all day, by quite a margin !

Did you watch ANY of the BBC's news output ?? Because if you did, you'll know that they screen, and re-screen, 'harrowing' scenes of 'those poor, downtrodden, brutalised Gazans' as major and leading 'news items' literally EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY.

Yes, they spend time on describing the Israeli side. They air pronouncements made by the Israeli PM, amongst others. But ... 'split down the middle' ? You can't be serious !!

I'd say that for every minute spent reporting from any semblance of 'an Israeli perspective', you'll get around eight minutes spent, at least, on reporting from the Gazan perspective. And consider this. There must SURELY be Gazans, somewhere, who think Hamas shares some of the blame for inviting Israeli reprisals ?? Tell me, Gabby, of ONE interview the BBC aired of ANY ONE SUCH GAZAN !!

You cannot, and well you know it. Because if the BBC were to do so, they'd put a dent in their relentless propaganda efforts !

If the BBC ever was 'unbiased', those days are long gone.

http://bbcwatch.org/





Yes, Gabby. The BBC's biases are now so bad that there is a Website out there devoted to exposing them !



Sir Drummond. With reference to gabby's admiration of the BBC. That is all nothing but a cover for her support of Hamas, and those who attack Israel

[Hanging Judge]

American kids also shoot AK47s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61dOAzoLcT4 Target practice so they can hit Hamas.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I have to wonder why Israel forces are in Gaza in the first place.

Try considering over 4,000 rockets have now been shot into Israel since this flare up started. Then count how many of that 4,000 you think should have been ignored if they were raining down on the city where you live.
Get back to me on that when you can reason it out to justify your view that Israel is somehow in the wrong and just as bad as the terrorist scum(Hamas) that are trying to murder thousands of Israeli civilians with rockets.
Those missiles are not July 4th celebration types--they are military weapons with high explosive warheads!!
The Iron dome defense system is what has saved Israel from having over ten thousand deaths by now.
I suggest that you bone-up next time on the facts so you will not look so clueless/ foolish.-Tyr

[Drummond]

I have to wonder why Israel forces are in Gaza in the first place.

Tyr's reply ....

Try considering over 4,000 rockets have now been shot into Israel since this flare up started. Then count how many of that 4,000 you think should have been ignored if they were raining down on the city where you live.
Get back to me on that when you can reason it out to justify your view that Israel is somehow in the wrong and just as bad as the terrorist scum(Hamas) that are trying to murder thousands of Israeli civilians with rockets.
Those missiles are not July 4th celebration types--they are military weapons with high explosive warheads!!
The Iron dome defense system is what has saved Israel from having over ten thousand deaths by now.
I suggest that you bone-up next time on the facts so you will not look so clueless/ foolish.-Tyr:clap::clap::clap:

-- Way better put than my own effort was. Many thanks !

[aboutime]

Try considering over 4,000 rockets have now been shot into Israel since this flare up started. Then count how many of that 4,000 you think should have been ignored if they were raining down on the city where you live.
Get back to me on that when you can reason it out to justify your view that Israel is somehow in the wrong and just as bad as the terrorist scum(Hamas) that are trying to murder thousands of Israeli civilians with rockets.
Those missiles are not July 4th celebration types--they are military weapons with high explosive warheads!!
The Iron dome defense system is what has saved Israel from having over ten thousand deaths by now.
I suggest that you bone-up next time on the facts so you will not look so clueless/ foolish.-Tyr


Tyr. Exactly, and very well said. Anyone happen to notice how quiet, and peaceful it was here while gabby was in Italy. Bothering them, instead of us?