Done Apologizing For Israel

[Kathianne]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html


Rabbi Menachem Creditor (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor) Become a fan (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/users/becomeFan.php?of=hp_blogger_Rabbi%20Menachem%20Cre ditor)Editor, 'Peace in Our Cities: Rabbis Against Gun Violence'



I'm Done Apologizing for IsraelPosted: <time datetime="2014-07-21T16:52:07-04:00" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">07/21/2014 4:52 pm EDT </time>Updated: <time datetime="2014-07-21T16:59:03-04:00" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;">07/21/2014 4:59 pm EDT

</time>I'm done apologizing for Israel.
It's tiring to apologize over and over. Instead, I've decided to come clean: I am a progressive American rabbi who leans left pretty hard. I've been engaged, as a US faith leader, in work to reform gun laws, extend LGBT rights around the world, grant refuge to illegal immigrants, protect women's reproductive choice, and more. Paint me blue.
So, when it comes to Israel, many of those with whom I engage in social reform expect me to react to Israel's military actions in Gaza with scorn and criticism. To be fair, there are times when I do. My Zionism demands I speak out on behalf of the Israel that remains, in my world-view, the most ambitious project-in-process of the Jewish People. Whereas Israel's 66 short years have witnessed strength and resilience that have redefined Jewish identity in profound ways, the global Jewish family remains interwoven with Israel. If you question this, scan the last week's news for anti-Israel rallies in Antwerp, Los Angeles, Paris, Boston, and elsewhere that featured widespread anti-Semitic chants and violence against Jews.
So I'm a progressive US faith leader. I'm a Zionist in Berkeley, CA. I'm a Jew in the world, worried for my family. So here is my response to those criticizing Israel this week.
To those who suggest that Prime Minister Netanyahu is over-reacting to the missiles, I offer this response which I have now shared regularly at campus and communal conversations:
Israel is treating wounded Palestinians during this conflict, risking Israeli lives in surgical strikes to destroy weapons-smuggling tunnels created with building materials Israel allowed into Gaza for infrastructure projects to benefit Palestinian society. Just for a moment, consider the deaths that would result from Israel wishing harm on Palestinian civilians. In just the last 48 hours, Israel has allowed over 10 tons of goods into Gaza. During the past weeks, Israel has agreed to two humanitarian cease-fires. In the first hours of those ceasefires, Hamas rained down over 70 missiles onto Israel civilians.
I ask: What do Israel's enraged critics truly desire? How is it possible to hear indignant claims of human rights violations in the context of Syrians slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, state-sanctioned terrorism around the globe, and young immigrants treated like chattel by the US and other? Israel is doing its best, sacrificing its own children to preserve the lives of Palestinians.
I also ask, regarding the world's seemingly acceptance of Hamas' tactics as the only remaining option left for a desperate leadership:
Were Hamas to truly lead its people forward to a life of stability and peace, wouldn't it use building materials for schools instead of smuggling tunnels? Wouldn't Hamas stop stockpiling weapons in mosques and transporting them in UN ambulances? Wouldn't Hamas stop firing missiles from civilian population centers if it valued Palestinian lives as much as Israel does? If Israel weren't so concerned for Palestinian lives, wouldn't it respond to Hamas' horrific decisions in kind?
I ask the enraged critics of Israel's defensive responses to Hamas: Would you have us not respond to this monstrosity? Do you think it's not worth losing the PR battle to retain our humanity and save as many lives as possible? What country would stand by when thousands of terrorist missiles assault its citizens? I, a Jew, have lost 20 of my sons in the last three days, because I will not lose my humanity and stage a careless ground war in Gaza that would cause mass casualties. Though I fight monsters, I will not become one.
My response has changed these last few weeks, in which three Jewish teens were murdered by Arab terrorists and Palestinians celebrated by distributing sweets to children and an Arab teen was murdered by Jewish terrorists and the Jewish world condemned the hatred. I am done trying to apologetically explain Jewish morality. I am done apologizing for my own Jewish existence.
Some will call this needless hyperbole. But, having watched in this last week anti-Semitic "die-ins" in Boston, violent assaults against Jews in Los Angeles and Antwerp, and an almost pogrom at a synagogue in Paris, I'm done mincing my own words.
We will do what we must to protect our people. We have that right. We are not less deserving of life and quiet than anyone else.
No more apologies.

Amen

[Drummond]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-menachem-creditor/im-done-apologizing-for-i_b_5606650.html


Excellent !

[tailfins]

Touch Israel and incur God's wrath.


Zechariah 2:8 <small style="color:#999999;">Viewing the King James Version.</small>



For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

[jafar00]

Empty words when those so called surgical strikes result in this...

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

Blatant targeting of civilians is inhuman. They treat Palestinians, especially those in Gaza as less than insects.

[gabosaurus]

There is no need to apologize in the first place. The Israelis have the right to defend themselves. So does the opposition.
I have no qualms about anything that happens in the Middle East, as long as the U.S. is not involved in any manner. Both sides in this conflict are quite able to take care of themselves. I see no reason for the U.S. to take either side.

[aboutime]

Empty words when those so called surgical strikes result in this...

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

Blatant targeting of civilians is inhuman. They treat Palestinians, especially those in Gaza as less than insects.



And, in your unfettered support for Hamas. You applaud such photos because of your terribly sick, hate filled, miserable ignorance you brag about so much.

[tailfins]

Empty words when those so called surgical strikes result in this...

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

Blatant targeting of civilians is inhuman. They treat Palestinians, especially those in Gaza as less than insects.

It is indeed the sad result of the Palestinians using children as human shields.


There is no need to apologize in the first place. The Israelis have the right to defend themselves. So does the opposition.
I have no qualms about anything that happens in the Middle East, as long as the U.S. is not involved in any manner. Both sides in this conflict are quite able to take care of themselves. I see no reason for the U.S. to take either side.

Either the US is an ally of Israel or it isn't.

[SassyLady]

It is indeed the sad result of the Palestinians using children as human shields.



Either the US is an ally of Israel or it isn't.

:clap::clap::clap:

[SassyLady]

Empty words when those so called surgical strikes result in this...

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

Blatant targeting of civilians is inhuman. They treat Palestinians, especially those in Gaza as less than insects.

Jafar, this breaks my heart and makes me hate the Palestinians even more for putting their children at risk in the first place.

[darin]

equally - maybe more? disturbing:

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/f5/d9/f5d9abf7cbeba0c4df1a952b423ce733.jpg?itok=Ex2hc4xF

Islamic Terrorists raise terrorists. Hamas - and other groups - blatantly attack from within "civilian" populations. For all we know the pic of that child is a fraud - or unrelated to the fighting. Terrorists have used all sorts of BS propaganda pics...

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/15/hamas-uses-horror-movie-still-of-headless-girl-in-miniskirt-to-depict-gaza-casualties-on-social-media-warning-graphic-video/

http://www.israelifrontline.com/2014/07/fake-arab-casualties.html

[jimnyc]

equally - maybe more? disturbing:

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/f5/d9/f5d9abf7cbeba0c4df1a952b423ce733.jpg?itok=Ex2hc4xF

Islamic Terrorists raise terrorists. Hamas - and other groups - blatantly attack from within "civilian" populations. For all we know the pic of that child is a fraud - or unrelated to the fighting. Terrorists have used all sorts of BS propaganda pics...

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/15/hamas-uses-horror-movie-still-of-headless-girl-in-miniskirt-to-depict-gaza-casualties-on-social-media-warning-graphic-video/

http://www.israelifrontline.com/2014/07/fake-arab-casualties.html

I could post these all day. Many areas infect their brains from the time they can learn, and teach them that Jews are infidels and are evil and should die. Go to Youtube and look up Palestinian Mickey Mouse. They use the little fella to teach all kinda of hate, and blame it all on the Jews. Here's an example of one of their brainwashing techniques...

MUST WATCH!!

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/X8fRMqWOBuM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[jafar00]

It is indeed the sad result of the Palestinians using children as human shields.

They were kids playing Soccer on the beach! How the hell can you call them human shields or terrorists? You are making excuses for Israel to commit such horrors.

[NightTrain]

They were kids playing Soccer on the beach! How the hell can you call them human shields or terrorists? You are making excuses for Israel to commit such horrors.

Were they? How do you know this?

Were there any terrorists around using this kid as a human shield when the event occurred? We've seen the videos of Hamas calling for civilians to be human shields, it looks like proof to me.

[Daniyel]

You really think Israel can live with this without taking them out once and for good?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQmpiEotWME

[jimnyc]

Were they? How do you know this?

Were there any terrorists around using this kid as a human shield when the event occurred? We've seen the videos of Hamas calling for civilians to be human shields, it looks like proof to me.

Read the rest of the page at the link at the bottom. Hamas terrorists convincing civilians to be shields, and civilians wanting to be shields.

Hamas TV:
Dead Gaza civilians privileged to have died this way

"These people [Gaza civilians killed in war]
- their time had come, and they were martyred.
They have gained [Paradise]...
Don't be disturbed by these images...
He who is Martyred doesn't feel...
His soul has ascended to Allah."
[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 20, 2014]

Hamas is trying to both justify and console Gaza's population over the many civilian deaths it has caused in the Gaza war. While broadcasting gruesome pictures of dead civilians, including children, a TV host explained that since in Islam a person's time of death is predetermined by Allah, the people who have been killed in the recent fighting have actually "gained": They would have died now anyway, but now they will receive the rewards of Martyrdom - Shahada - in Paradise

...

The following are the words of the Hamas TV host, referring to the civilians who died in the Gaza war as "having gained," followed by the words of the former Palestinian Authority Minister of Religious Affairs, who explains the ideology of Martyrdom in Islam.

Hamas TV: Dead Gaza civilians gained Paradise: "The enemy has killed us and we are Martyrs"

Hamas TV host: "Every soul has its time. These people - their time had come, and they were Martyred (i.e., Gaza civilians killed in war). They have gained [Paradise]. They have nothing in this world, especially in the Gaza Strip. There's no life in the Gaza Strip. What life can we have in the Gaza Strip? Being with Allah is better. Being with Allah is better. What we see is very hard but we won't surrender, Allah willing. The first to say it are the Martyrs' family. The first to say it are the Martyrs' mothers and fathers... Don't be disturbed by these images. He who was killed this way doesn't feel. By Allah, he does not feel. These are not my words, but the words of our beloved Prophet [Muhammad]: He who is Martyred doesn't feel. Only we suffer by these images. By Allah, [the Martyr] doesn't feel. His soul has ascended to Allah. His soul is with the Lord. His soul is inside a green bird. He is with Allah now. He is in Paradise. Only we suffer by these images... In other cities, in other countries, thousands die in earthquakes, floods, plane crashes, in ferry or shipwrecks, in natural or unnatural disasters. Thousands die. Thousands die but we don't know what their fate is with Allah. But we [in Gaza] are Martyrs. The enemy has killed us and we are Martyrs."

[Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 20, 2014]

...

PA Minister of Religious Affairs Mahmoud Al-Habbash:

"After prophecy and righteousness there is no status Allah has exalted more than Shahada (Martyrdom)... ''And think not of those who have been killed in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord.'
Allah forbade us to consider them [the Shahids (Martyrs)] as dead or to speak of them as being dead... They went smiling to their deaths... The Shahid has merit with Allah, a merit that no one else has... No one - not even the righteous - yearns to return to this world after death. Only Shahids. Why? Because they see the great honor Allah has prepared for them. One of them aspired to return to this world in order to be killed again, in order to die as a Shahid yet again... Allah spoke with one of them (a Shahid), Jabir ibn Abdullah... After all he saw in Paradise, he wanted to return and be killed [again] in order to taste the pain of death a second time. Abdullah said to Him:
'Lord, then tell those who follow us about what we have found.'
Allah Himself is conveying to us the message from the Shahids. The prophets convey Allah's message and Allah conveys the message of the Shahids. What kindness!
'The Shahid - his sins are forgiven with the first gush of his blood from his wound...
The Shahid advocates on behalf of 70 members of his family, and saves them all from hell. The Shahid lives together with the prophets and the righteous ones.'
When they threatened Yasser Arafat, [he said] 'You threaten me with death?
I yearn to die! I come only to it; I seek only it.'

We will never reach the level of the prophets. We won't. So let us reach the level of the Shahids. I say to you, brothers, as the Prophet [Muhammad] said: 'He who honestly seeks Shahada, Allah will give him the status of the Shahids, even if he dies in his bed.'"

[Official PA TV, Nov. 8, 2013]

Rest here: http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=12117

[aboutime]

They were kids playing Soccer on the beach! How the hell can you call them human shields or terrorists? You are making excuses for Israel to commit such horrors.


JAFAR. You now expose another Lie, by neglecting to also mention how HAMAS instructed those children, and their parents NOT TO SEEK COVER, and just carry on their lives or...FACT DEATH FROM HAMAS.

You are incapable of being Honest, or daring to tell the TRUTH.

Here is your protection jafar...use your own brush...http://icansayit.com/images/preptooth.jpg

[red state]

Has anyone shown any proof that the child was not killed elsewhere and brought to that location? I wouldn't put it past the muSLUM scum to have butchered this child and do a photo shoot on the beach. It matches their normal strategy but, like someone said earlier, they are placing their people at risk and want this to happen................... one way or another and they ensure that it does happen (one way or another).

[red state]

Perhaps jafart will post another photo for us to shoot down as propaganda......THEY truly make it easy. When THEY cry wolf over and over.....it gets pretty darn hard to believe them when a wolf is really upon them. Well, it is no wolf on their sorry heads now. It is a LION! and they brought it ALL upon themselves. I don't see it happening but I'd like to see a clean Israel with rockets coming from Egypt, Iran or some other country so that they can really rain down their might without worry.

[Drummond]

There is no need to apologize in the first place. The Israelis have the right to defend themselves. So does the opposition.
I have no qualms about anything that happens in the Middle East, as long as the U.S. is not involved in any manner. Both sides in this conflict are quite able to take care of themselves. I see no reason for the U.S. to take either side.

The point has been made, and I agree with it, that the US should treat its allies honourably. Israel is an ally of the US. Maybe Lefties would think otherwise ... but by MY standards, at least, an ally has every right to expect that to mean something of value. Bottom line .. an ally is NOT there to be sold out, at a time of need.

[aboutime]

Has anyone shown any proof that the child was not killed elsewhere and brought to that location? I wouldn't put it past the muSLUM scum to have butchered this child and do a photo shoot on the beach. It matches their normal strategy but, like someone said earlier, they are placing their people at risk and want this to happen................... one way or another and they ensure that it does happen (one way or another).


red state. They don't need any proof. HAMAS has been shown, known, and proven to do exactly what you suggested with that child/photo in the past.
HAMAS has a huge library (I would guess) of ready to publish...Terrible, Disgusting, Hamas-brainless stories, photos, and recordings they use to EXACERBATE everything they are involved in...when it comes to Israel.

A simple method of checking my words, for those who doubt my honesty would be:
Go to GOOGLE, click on IMAGES, then type HAMAS/TERROR photos.
You won't like what you find. And I REST MY CASE.

[red state]

The point has been made, and I agree with it, that the US should treat its allies honourably. Israel is an ally of the US. Maybe Lefties would think otherwise ... but by MY standards, at least, an ally has every right to expect that to mean something of value. Bottom line .. an ally is NOT there to be sold out, at a time of need.

Drummond, what you need to remember and hold on to is that the left sees EVERYONE who is patriotic to the USA, our Constitution and our loyalty to allies (FREE STATE, FREE WORSHIP, PEACE LOVING allies as is Israel) is an enemy to be dealt with..................even if that means that the liberal scum need to rub elbows with muSLUM scum. They are all scum that hates FREEDOM and the USA is hated most of all cuz we are the beacon of freedom to the entire world. I must be getting hungry.....I keep seeing BACON when I typed beacon. HA!!! Time to go get some fresh tomatoes from the garden and make a BLCT (bacon/lettace/cheeses/tomato sandwich).

[Drummond]

They were kids playing Soccer on the beach! How the hell can you call them human shields or terrorists? You are making excuses for Israel to commit such horrors.

OK, Jafar. Let's pin you down to some specifics, shall we ?

You've posted a picture. What it APPEARS to show is reasonably clear. However, with this picture .. your fact-deficient comments notwithstanding .. we see NO actual INFORMATION.

.... so ... LET'S GET SOME.

Answer all this, Jafar ...

1. What is the source of your photo ? Provide a link we can judge for ourselves.

2. When was the photograph taken ?

3. Where was it taken ?

4. What is the nationality of the child shown ?

5. What is the child's identity ... is anything of this known, or are we just meant to leap to assumptions ?

6. What were the circumstances just beforehand ?

7. Is it known for a definite fact that the child is dead ? (the child just might be unconscious, or, this could just be a propaganda mock-up ... or, as has been shown, the true context might be entirely different to what you want us to believe).

8. Assuming you can supply any quantity of this information, Jafar, has what you'd LIKE us to believe, been independently verified ? By whom ?

Showing us a photo, then just expecting anyone seeing it to leap to conclusions about it in the ABSENCE of accompanying hard fact, will not do.

[red state]

Don't hold your breath, Drummond. I'd like to add a question or two.......is this child a REAL muSLUM and where is all the stuff associated with a wound such as this?

In short..................................:link:


OK, everyone; ALL TOGETHER NOW!.............................................. ........... :link::link::link::link::link::link::link::link::l ink:

[Drummond]

Drummond, what you need to remember and hold on to is that the left sees EVERYONE who is patriotic to the USA, our Constitution and our loyalty to allies (FREE STATE, FREE WORSHIP, PEACE LOVING allies as is Israel) is an enemy to be dealt with..................even if that means that the liberal scum need to rub elbows with muSLUM scum. They are all scum that hates FREEDOM and the USA is hated most of all cuz we are the beacon of freedom to the entire world. I must be getting hungry.....I keep seeing BACON when I typed beacon. HA!!! Time to go get some fresh tomatoes from the garden and make a BLCT (bacon/lettace/cheeses/tomato sandwich).:clap::clap::clap:

And I wholeheartedly agree.

You have it on your side of the Pond. We have it on ours. The phenomenon of Left-leaning trash falling over itself in the rush to show solidarity with anyone who can shape up to be an adversary. I am sick to the back teeth of seeing the Left be apologists for Muslim hate preachers, or to find ways of being soft on enemies.

They marched IN THEIR MILLIONS, LITERALLY SO, to fend off the possibility of seeing Saddam taken out. Here, they gave Tony Blair hell for siding with GW Bush, Blair, THEIR OWN LEADER, they demonised mercilessly.

There was much that was wrong with Blair. Doing the right thing against terrorism was, remarkably, NOT part of it. The Left, like a pack of wolves, will even devour their own, if they aren't treacherous and destructive enough.

[red state]

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

As I look at this photo, I still can't help but wonder if this child is an Israeli child who was abducted by the plo/hummus animals, whacked up with a butcher knife and left there. It is certainly a very CLEAN spot for such an awful wound. Even if jafart provides a link, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll have holes in the story (IF) any proof at all is offered. A link without PROOF is still just propaganda and the link that I suspect jafart will use comes from nothing but a propaganda association that, LIKE JAFART, supports terrorists.

[red state]

:clap::clap::clap:

And I wholeheartedly agree.

You have it on your side of the Pond. We have it on ours. The phenomenon of Left-leaning trash falling over itself in the rush to show solidarity with anyone who can shape up to be an adversary. I am sick to the back teeth of seeing the Left be apologists for Muslim hate preachers, or to find ways of being soft on enemies.

They marched IN THEIR MILLIONS, LITERALLY SO, to fend off the possibility of seeing Saddam taken out. Here, they gave Tony Blair hell for siding with GW Bush, Blair, THEIR OWN LEADER, they demonised mercilessly.

There was much that was wrong with Blair. Doing the right thing against terrorism was, remarkably, NOT part of it. The Left, like a pack of wolves, will even devour their own, if they aren't treacherous and destructive enough.


Yes, they certainly will devour their own.................we see that in the millions over here (under the title of abortion). Care to ponder on the percentages of abortion among Conservatives? They are ALL animals and for us to expect them to act any differently or for our hope of their thinking with common sense or decency is a flaw that we have in seeing the BEST in ALL people but we must (absolutely must) keep in mind that they are not like us nor do they think on the higher plane as we. Don't expect a dog to vomit and not lap it back up.....the left simply love ALL that is sickening and filthy. It is simply their nature...............unless they (the FEW) see the light.

[Drummond]

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

As I look at this photo, I still can't help but wonder if this child is an Israeli child who was abducted by the plo/hummus animals, whacked up with a butcher knife and left there. It is certainly a very CLEAN spot for such an awful wound. Even if jafart provides a link, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll have holes in the story (IF) any proof at all is offered. A link without PROOF is still just propaganda and the link that I suspect jafart will use comes from nothing but a propaganda association that, LIKE JAFART, supports terrorists.

As you say, Red State, a very clean spot for such a wound. I agree - this itself doesn't ring true.

And Jafar - even despite having his recently-cited 'information' source of choice (... not offered about this, though) outed as a forum where anti-Semitic characters supply much of its material - STILL, has continued to use that same source subsequently.

That Jafar is knowingly using propaganda sources friendly to Hamas and hostile to Israel is beyond question.

Jafar ... sooner or later, current hostilities between Israel and Hamas will cease (... probably just a lull until Hamas gets more rockets, and starts its savageries once more). And what passes for 'normality' will be re-asserted.

BUT WITH ONE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE, JAFAR, SO FAR AS THIS FORUM IS CONCERNED.

Until this all kicked off, Jafar, you were selling yourself as a peace-loving Muslim, against terrorists, rejecting terrorism as at all acceptable within the Muslim faith, and against what you, yourself, purported to 'believe in'.

Now, we have hostilities between Hamas and Israel. You have been tested through these developing circumstances, and a VERY different picture emerges.

DOESN'T IT ?

You've been critical of Hamas ... at a time, and in such a manner, when it doesn't really count for anything in terms of ongoing reality.

But when IT REALLY COUNTS, THE CRITICALITY VANISHES. YOU RESERVE EVERY BIT OF ALL YOUR ENERGIES TO REMORSELESSLY WAGING A PROPAGANDA WAR AGAINST ISRAEL.

NOT ONE WORD AGAINST HAMAS ..... AND WHEN THEY MOST DESERVE IT !!!!

... so .. we see the truth of you, Jafar.

THE TERRORIST-SUPPORTING TRUTH.

[Drummond]

Yes, they certainly will devour their own.................we see that in the millions over here (under the title of abortion). Care to ponder on the percentages of abortion among Conservatives? They are ALL animals and for us to expect them to act any differently or for our hope of their thinking with common sense or decency is a flaw that we have in seeing the BEST in ALL people but we must (absolutely must) keep in mind that they are not like us nor do they think on the higher plane as we. Don't expect a dog to vomit and not lap it back up.....the left simply love ALL that is sickening and filthy. It is simply their nature...............unless they (the FEW) see the light.

Thanks, Red state - we think much alike.

What you've also given me, in the above comment, is reason to believe (.. which I had anyway ..) that if any resurgence of fully decent Conservatism is to make itself felt in the world, America will be the source of it and provide the necessary example(s).

Conservatism is alive in the UK. Whether it's 'alive AND WELL' is something else. Our Conservatives have features to their thinking that I think you'd identify as broadly Socialist. 'Liberal' attitudes to abortion is one. The keenness with which our Conservative Prime Minister supports gay marriage is another (some of his own Right wing have found that extremely hard to swallow, but they seem to be stuck with it regardless).

A lesson needs to be drawn from this. Namely, that, give Socialist thinking enough of an airing for long enough, and it'll infect all aspects of social and political thinking. We've been subject to this for generations, in a way you have not.

So the lesson is for zero tolerance against ALL enemy philosophies, ALL THE TIME. NO LETUP, EVER.

[Drummond]

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

:link::link::link::link::link::link::link::link::l ink::link:

[red state]

Thanks, Red state - we think much alike.

Until this all kicked off, Jafar, you were selling yourself as a peace-loving Muslim, against terrorists, rejecting terrorism as at all acceptable within the Muslim faith, and against what you, yourself, purported to 'believe in'. Now, we have hostilities between Hamas and Israel. You have been tested through these developing circumstances, and a VERY different picture emerges. DOESN'T IT ?



So the lesson is for zero tolerance against ALL enemy philosophies, ALL THE TIME. NO LETUP, EVER

__________________________________________________ __________________


Drummond, you are, without doubt, one of the best spoken members here as well as one of the wisest. You have pin-pointed the core of jafart and revealed him to everyone as the scum I always knew him to be. As for the other comments about our enemies and the lies of the LEFT, I couldn't agree with you more and, as you said, we are very much on the same page.

I count it as one of the HIGHEST compliments that you would consider us to be like-minded. As they say, GREAT minds think alike. HA!

[Drummond]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]

__________________________________________________ __________________


Drummond, you are, without doubt, one of the best spoken members here as well as one of the wisest. You have pin-pointed the core of jafart and revealed him to everyone as the scum I always knew him to be. As for the other comments about our enemies and the lies of the LEFT, I couldn't agree with you more and, as you said, we are very much on the same page.

I count it as one of the HIGHEST compliments that you would consider us to be like-minded. As they say, GREAT minds think alike. HA!

:clap::clap::clap::beer:

Most appreciated, Red state !

I always found it hard to accept Jafar as being how he sold himself to be. Always pulling his punches on Hamas. Always 'blind' to obvious truths about his Muslim comrades, truths that were staring the rest of us in the face.

Jafar's been committed to an Islam-sanitising agenda throughout, and when tested, this converts to classic Jew-hating bigotry shared by the rest of those of his 'faith'. A 'peaceful' Muslim, becoming silent in support of warmongers and savages when the worst of their savageries surfaces .... except to propagandise in LOYALTY to them.

[red state]

Well said, Sir Drummond, and I see that we are all still waiting on a :link:

Of course, I'll never see whatever filthy lies this member would spew because I have him and a few others on IGNORE. I do see what they've posted from time to time and that is just fine BUT when the rest of every one gets tired enough of these pukes lies, none of us will know what they say cuz none of us will respond to them or, God forbid, give them the respect that they do not deserve by quoting them. That's just me though....

Bottom line: REAL muSLUMs are of the same religion that we know as "the religion of pieces" (not the religion of peace). I hate to say this but ALL of them (if given enough chain) will be devastating to FREEDOM and even life/limb. jaFART and those like him will never pull the wool over my eyes. Look....there are a few within the Jewish religion and other religions/cults who dislike America/Christians and conservatively FREE thinking people (like you and me) but the cult of islum has them all beat because they are on a plane of hatred that surpasses all others; the lowest of levels, if you will. You see, THEY put their hate to action and it is obvious throughout the world............unless you are ignorant, blind or a like-minded FREEDOM hater.

[jafar00]

:link::link::link::link::link::link::link::link::l ink::link:

You don't believe me? Keep up with the news. Maybe you didn't see it because your only source is from the IOF and they called it a strike on a rocket site hidden among human shields?

Here is a story about that incident.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/16/gaza-israeli-strike-kills-four-children-beach-video

[NightTrain]

Nope, not buying it.

The kid was intentionally placed there or was made to stand as a human shield for terrorist activities.

How very courageous of the palestinians, hiding behind and using children in war. So fierce and brave!

[jafar00]

Nope, not buying it.

The kid was intentionally placed there or was made to stand as a human shield for terrorist activities.

How very courageous of the palestinians, hiding behind and using children in war. So fierce and brave!

If I could see your face, I would be asking how you kept it straight while saying that.

[NightTrain]

If I could see your face, I would be asking how you kept it straight while saying that.

You'd briefly see a grim look of satisfaction as I closed your eyes for a few days.

[jimnyc]

You don't believe me? Keep up with the news. Maybe you didn't see it because your only source is from the IOF and they called it a strike on a rocket site hidden among human shields?

It's a fact that at times Hamas uses human shields, and have even stated as of recently that they think it's effective. WHY is it I have NEVER ONCE seen you condemn such actions or state how wrong it is that Hamas encourages them to ignore warnings and stay in their homes?

You act like you like children - but if Hamas is involved you will ignore them.

As usual, propaganda and hidden hatred, and using children as a TOOL. Sick.

[Drummond]

You don't believe me?

The thought that I might not believe you is a surprise to you, Jafar ?

OK - shall we review ? I wanted, if you recall, chapter and verse on the picture you posted .. where it came from, etc.

Here's what happened with my inquiry - and NONE of it any surprise to me ....



1. What is the source of your photo ? Provide a link we can judge for ourselves.

NONE SUPPLIED.

2. When was the photograph taken ?

NO INFORMATION SUPPLIED

3. Where was it taken ?

NO INFORMATION SUPPLIED

4. What is the nationality of the child shown ?

NO INFORMATION SUPPLIED

5. What is the child's identity ... is anything of this known, or are we just meant to leap to assumptions ?

NO INFORMATION SUPPLIED

6. What were the circumstances just beforehand ?

NO INFORMATION SUPPLIED

7. Is it known for a definite fact that the child is dead ? (the child just might be unconscious, or, this could just be a propaganda mock-up ... or, as has been shown, the true context might be entirely different to what you want us to believe).

NO INFORMATION SUPPLIED

8. Assuming you can supply any quantity of this information, Jafar, has what you'd LIKE us to believe, been independently verified ? By whom ?

NO INFORMATION SUPPLIED

Now, Jafar, why on earth wouldn't I believe you ??

I find it especially suspicious that you gave no link for your picture. Were you concerned that, in posting it, you'd have your propaganda undermined (again) once it was examined ?


Keep up with the news.

WHOSE news ? Would you prefer I get it from Muslim, or Muslim-friendly, sources ? Leftie ones, for example ?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/16/gaza-israeli-strike-kills-four-children-beach-video

Ah, the Guardian, Jafar. You will know from your stay in the UK that THEY ARE A LEFT WING PUBLICATION.

Now, how surprising is THAT ?:laugh2:

You want me to infer a connection between the photo and the Guardian piece ? And ... what actual proof do I have that your picture IS connected ?

Your word ? The word of a Muslim intent upon shoving pro-Hamas propaganda down our throats (... which, incidentally, the Guardian video itself supplies to its readers, none of it apparently independently verified) ????

[jafar00]

It's a fact that at times Hamas uses human shields, and have even stated as of recently that they think it's effective. WHY is it I have NEVER ONCE seen you condemn such actions or state how wrong it is that Hamas encourages them to ignore warnings and stay in their homes?

You act like you like children - but if Hamas is involved you will ignore them.

As usual, propaganda and hidden hatred, and using children as a TOOL. Sick.

Israel deliberately fired upon and killed children playing on the beach not once, but multiple times, and you have the audacity to call them human shields and give Israel a free pass?

You have no heart.

[aboutime]

Israel deliberately fired upon and killed children playing on the beach not once, but multiple times, and you have the audacity to call them human shields and give Israel a free pass?

You have no heart.


jafar. We have no need to use audacity. This video DEBUNKS all of your lies.


http://youtu.be/eQ6S0-o3uFI

[jimnyc]

Israel deliberately fired upon and killed children playing on the beach not once, but multiple times, and you have the audacity to call them human shields and give Israel a free pass?

You have no heart.

As I figured, you simply can't do it. You choose to get into bed with radicals and make excuses for them. You fall right into the category of 15-25% of Muslims being radicals, as your undying support of a known terrorist group, and continual excuses for them, make you a radical. Congratulations on being part of the 500 million or so in your category from Islam.

[gabosaurus]

As I figured, you simply can't do it. You choose to get into bed with radicals and make excuses for them. You fall right into the category of 15-25% of Muslims being radicals, as your undying support of a known terrorist group, and continual excuses for them, make you a radical. Congratulations on being part of the 500 million or so in your category from Islam.

Why is it that one side can be construed as outright terrorists for taking part in hedonistic activities, but the other side is given a pass for doing the same thing? Can't we agree that both sides are terrorists and should be labeled as such?

[jimnyc]

Why is it that one side can be construed as outright terrorists for taking part in hedonistic activities, but the other side is given a pass for doing the same thing? Can't we agree that both sides are terrorists and should be labeled as such?

Hamas is a terrorist organization recognized by America and the EU. Israel is an ally of our country and the only democracy in the Middle East. I think Israel makes mistakes, but like the USA, I think they take as much precaution as possible to minimize civilian deaths. They are very similar to us in that manner. Hamas? They act like no military. They act like the terrorists they are. They take no care at all to minimize civilian deaths.

[aboutime]

Why is it that one side can be construed as outright terrorists for taking part in hedonistic activities, but the other side is given a pass for doing the same thing? Can't we agree that both sides are terrorists and should be labeled as such?


gabby. Using your train of thinking. It sounds like you Blame your own nation for what took place on September 11, 2001.
Were all of those human beings killed in New York, Washington, and that field in Pennsylvania what YOU CALL TERRORISTS?...as you ask above? Oh, and you are now calling Israeli's terrorists as well?

[Drummond]

Israel deliberately fired upon and killed children playing on the beach not once, but multiple times, and you have the audacity to call them human shields and give Israel a free pass?

You have no heart.

Jafar .. to this moment, at least, you've offered this site a photo from which something can be INFERRED. Your intended inference has been properly tested - and the result of that test was your utter failure to supply any of the information asked of you. YOU DIDN'T EVEN SUPPLY THE LINK FROM WHICH YOUR PHOTO MUST HAVE ORIGINATED.

The best you've managed since then is to offer a video from which one can INFER a link between its account and your previous photo. NO PROOF AVAILABLE OF THAT ... NONE OFFERED.

And what HAVE you offered ? PROPAGANDA FROM A HAMAS-MADE VIDEO ... THIS POSTED ON A BRITISH LEFT WING MEDIA SITE !!!

And ... none of any of this independently verified, either. So, the Guardian posted it. Well, they would ... THEY THEMSELVES ARE LEFTIE PROPAGANDISTS !!

So, Jafar. You think people who don't swallow your propaganda 'have no heart' ?? If the test of having a heart is to be conned by terrorist LIES, Jafar, then maybe people like myself are 'heartless' enough to find the thought OF TERRORISTS STRAPPING BOMBS ON TO CHILDREN REPUGNANT !!

JAFAR --- AS A PROVEN HAMAS SUPPORTER YOURSELF .. EXPLAIN. WHAT IS PROOF OF HAVING 'A DECENT HEART' IN SUPPORTING THE SUBHUMAN SCUM THAT DO THIS TO CHILDREN ???

YOU'VE MADE YOUR BED. NOW LIE IN IT. SHOW US ALL YOUR UNSWERVING HATRED OF JEWS - AS A 'PEACELOVING' MUSLIM - AND YOUR LOVE OF TERRORIST SCUM.

... yes. SHOW US THE TRUTH OF 'PEACELOVING' MUSLIMS. GO AHEAD. POUR IT ON. TEACH US SOME UNFORGETTABLE TRUTHS ABOUT THAT ... WHILE MORE VICTIMS SUFFER AND DIE IN THE SERVICE OF YOUR HATE-CONSUMED RELIGION.

[gabosaurus]

gabby. Using your train of thinking. It sounds like you Blame your own nation for what took place on September 11, 2001.
Were all of those human beings killed in New York, Washington, and that field in Pennsylvania what YOU CALL TERRORISTS?...as you ask above? Oh, and you are now calling Israeli's terrorists as well?

Are you saying that Hamas were responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks?
I said that recognized entities responsible for terrorist attacks should be labeled as terrorists.
Saudi Arabia is recognized as one of our "allies." Yet they harbor and support more terrorist groups than any other nation in the Middle East. I view the Saudis as a terrorist state. Israel also harbors hard line groups that endorse terrorist activities. Including spying on the U.S.

[gabosaurus]

JAFAR --- AS A PROVEN HAMAS SUPPORTER YOURSELF .. EXPLAIN. WHAT IS PROOF OF HAVING 'A DECENT HEART' IN SUPPORTING THE SUBHUMAN SCUM THAT DO THIS TO CHILDREN ???


Sir Drummond, you have never proven that Jafar supports any terrorist group, including Hamas. The fact that Jafar is a Muslim doesn't mean he supports terrorism.
There are some Catholics on this board. Does being Catholic mean that they support pedophilia? Does being Christian mean you support the Westboro Baptist Church, or the sick people who kill their kids because God told them to?
You, of all people, should not be prone to make rash generalizations.

[aboutime]

Are you saying that Hamas were responsible for the Sept. 11 attacks?
I said that recognized entities responsible for terrorist attacks should be labeled as terrorists.
Saudi Arabia is recognized as one of our "allies." Yet they harbor and support more terrorist groups than any other nation in the Middle East. I view the Saudis as a terrorist state. Israel also harbors hard line groups that endorse terrorist activities. Including spying on the U.S.


You have constantly claimed to be so much more, highly intelligent than the rest of us here. And you ask such an uneducated, foolish question?
If you actually thought I was saying...what you suggested. It merely proves what my, and many others here have suspected about you for a long time.

So. There is nothing else that can, or should be said to you.

The so-called "CAT" is now, finally out of the bag.

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond, you have never proven that Jafar supports any terrorist group, including Hamas. The fact that Jafar is a Muslim doesn't mean he supports terrorism.
There are some Catholics on this board. Does being Catholic mean that they support pedophilia? Does being Christian mean you support the Westboro Baptist Church, or the sick people who kill their kids because God told them to?
You, of all people, should not be prone to make rash generalizations.

Gabby ... as it's turned out, I haven't had to prove Jafar's support of terrorists - & specifically Hamas. Jafar's been doing that, himself, without any help from me.

In times past, we've seen Jafar pull his punches on criticism of Hamas. At first, very starkly so. As time went on, so Jafar seemingly became more inclined to offer criticism of Hamas .. though, more often than not, he had to be prodded into it.

Now, this is all well and good .. IF it's genuinely meant.

But if it had been, then Jafar should've been willing to regard recent events in a way that was consistent with the mindset he was promoting on behalf of himself, and other (as he claimed) 'peaceful' Muslims. WE HAVE SEEN NONE OF THIS, AT ALL, IN RECENT DAYS.

What have we seen, instead ?

Attack after propagandist attack on Israel. Jafar has no good words for Israel. NONE at all. All he says for Israel is clearly designed to persuade people to see Israel as the darkest of villains, irremediable in the extreme, as savage, conscience-lacking murderers. But, on Hamas, he offers ... WHAT ? ... criticism ?

NONE WHATEVER.

Hamas are terrorists. They provoke the backlash they get. They use Gazans as human shields in order to maximise their ability to launch indiscriminate attacks on Israeli territory which they fervently hope will kill as many Jewish people as possible. If or when their human shield tactics fail, then they demonise Israel in a manner INDISTINGUISHABLE from Jafar's own offerings.

Jafar's postings, now, are pure Hamas-friendly prose. What little criticism he once reserved for Hamas is ENTIRELY gone, replaced by anything Jafar can offer which promotes any message that Hamas themselves would want disseminated.

So, Gabby, I'll ask you not to waste my time. Had Jafar genuinely been what he once tried to tell us was true of him, some measure of condemnation of Hamas would've surfaced. Even if Jafar genuinely believed that Israel deserved censure, still, a form of balance between the two sides would've been struck.

BUT THAT BALANCE SIMPLY DOES NOT EXIST. ONE SIDE IS COMPLETELY FAVOURED OVER THE OTHER.

And the side being favoured is the side of internationally-recognised TERRORISTS.

TRY POINTING OUT HAMAS'S FAILINGS. JAFAR, NOW, DOES NOT OFFER ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF ANY. HE HASN'T DONE, EVER SINCE THE CURRENT HOSTILITIES BEGAN.

SO ... QED.

[SassyLady]

Sir Drummond, you have never proven that Jafar supports any terrorist group, including Hamas. The fact that Jafar is a Muslim doesn't mean he supports terrorism.
There are some Catholics on this board. Does being Catholic mean that they support pedophilia? Does being Christian mean you support the Westboro Baptist Church, or the sick people who kill their kids because God told them to?
You, of all people, should not be prone to make rash generalizations.

Gabby ... I don't condemn Jafar's support of terrorists because he's Muslim. I condemn him because he refuses to condemn Hamas ... and actually supports them.

If I came here and told you what a good person, priest, man, brother, son, etc. a certain Cardinal is and wanted you to focus on just that aspect of the person's actions without condemning their pedophilia, then I think it's safe to say that I can't truly see the whole picture. That there are just some things that are so horrific it eradicates any and all previous/current good things associated with that person.

Hamas is that type of organization .... and Jafar cannot/will not concede that any good they might have done in the past is eradicated by their current disregard for the lives of their citizens.

[jimnyc]

Sir Drummond, you have never proven that Jafar supports any terrorist group, including Hamas. The fact that Jafar is a Muslim doesn't mean he supports terrorism.
There are some Catholics on this board. Does being Catholic mean that they support pedophilia? Does being Christian mean you support the Westboro Baptist Church, or the sick people who kill their kids because God told them to?
You, of all people, should not be prone to make rash generalizations.

You come and go and don't know what you speak of. Jafar ADMITTED to supporting them. Even admitted with another guy here that he cheers on Hamas when rockets are sent to Israel, that they are avenging earlier deaths. Did you know this, or not know this? And if you're not sure, then why are you jumping on Drummond while being uninformed?

Jafar defends Hamas at EVERY angle and EVERY opportunity. He states that their actions are NOT terror acts, while stating the opposite about Israel. He excuses their sending rockets blindly to anywhere they may land. He ignores Hamas using children. He ignores Hamas using human shields.

And how about just asking him - "Jafar, do you unequivocally condemn Hamas and all of their terror activities? Do you condemn this terror group as a whole and agree that this terror group should disappear, or needs to go for peace to be made?"

You will never see concrete answers. He supports Hamas. This is a fact that he has admitted to. Try finding a true Christian that supports Westboro, which would actually be BETTER than supporting terrorism, but even that you won't find.

Oh, and I have news for you, Gabby - the majority of Muslims throughout the world support Hamas.

[Kathianne]

What Jim said, plus there's no real equivalency here between Hamas and the supporters or Catholics and pedophile priests.

There aren't Catholics that support those priests when outed, they were as appalled as any thumper from CA.

[Jeff]

What Jim said, plus there's no real equivalency here between Hamas and the supporters or Catholics and pedophile priests.

There aren't Catholics that support those priests when outed, they were as appalled as any thumper from CA.

I don't think anyone was OK with Catholic priest doing what they did let alone cheer them on, and how many times did this offense happen, Hamas is sending rockets into Israel daily ( multiple times a day )

No comparison

[Drummond]

I don't think anyone was OK with Catholic priest doing what they did let alone cheer them on, and how many times did this offense happen, Hamas is sending rockets into Israel daily ( multiple times a day )

No comparison

... and, changing the subject a little, as I type, I'm hearing a news report saying that Israel has agreed to a 24 hour-long ceasefire in Gaza. It's a ceasefire which, according to that same report, Hamas has already broken.

Israel says it reserves the right to respond militarily to such provocations, if/as they happen. But then, what else should anyone expect ? Tolerance of terrorist savagery should NOT be expected of the Israeli side.

[Jeff]

... and, changing the subject a little, as I type, I'm hearing a news report saying that Israel has agreed to a 24 hour-long ceasefire in Gaza. It's a ceasefire which, according to that same report, Hamas has already broken.

Israel says it reserves the right to respond militarily to such provocations, if/as they happen. But then, what else should anyone expect ? Tolerance of terrorist savagery should NOT be expected of the Israeli side.

I read that as well, according to jafar Israel has broke all cease fire's I wonder why when Hamas is getting there a$$e$ handed to them why they would start now :rolleyes:

There is no reasoning with these animals ( here they get a chance to breath but turn it down ) Israel needs to go in and annihilate them !!!

[jafar00]

I don't think anyone was OK with Catholic priest doing what they did let alone cheer them on, and how many times did this offense happen, Hamas is sending rockets into Israel daily ( multiple times a day )

No comparison

Israel is doing targeted assassinations, hellfire rocket attacks from Helicopters, artillery salvos, kidnapping, and the illegal collective punishment and siege of a refugee camp. That is when they aren't levelling entire neighbourhoods and mowing down 20-30 women and children to get at a single Hamas operative that may or may not even be in the area.

I agree, no comparison.

[Daniyel]

Israel is doing targeted assassinations, hellfire rocket attacks from Helicopters, artillery salvos, kidnapping, and the illegal collective punishment and siege of a refugee camp. That is when they aren't levelling entire neighbourhoods and mowing down 20-30 women and children to get at a single Hamas operative that may or may not even be in the area.

I agree, no comparison.
Target Assassination is the best way to avoid collateral damage and innocents harm, Collective Punishment was never an Israeli reaction, civilians do suffer from the actions of few, Israel does everything possible to avoid that.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=19067 - This is every day basis, you never happen to hear about it..
Anyway that debate is more than ridiculous, Jafar, do you know how Hamas became the government of Gaza?

[jimnyc]

Israel is doing targeted assassinations, hellfire rocket attacks from Helicopters, artillery salvos, kidnapping, and the illegal collective punishment and siege of a refugee camp. That is when they aren't levelling entire neighbourhoods and mowing down 20-30 women and children to get at a single Hamas operative that may or may not even be in the area.

I agree, no comparison.

And yet you support guys that drive dead people down the road behind motorcycles, and use children strapped with bombs. Collateral damage is a BIG difference than purposeful damage by Islamic Terrorists. <--- I'm assuming you don't mind me using the term "Islamic" here, since you and millions more support Hamas?

[aboutime]

Israel is doing targeted assassinations, hellfire rocket attacks from Helicopters, artillery salvos, kidnapping, and the illegal collective punishment and siege of a refugee camp. That is when they aren't levelling entire neighbourhoods and mowing down 20-30 women and children to get at a single Hamas operative that may or may not even be in the area.

I agree, no comparison.

RIGHT YOU ARE jafar. Funny how you intentionally avoided making a complete statement, as in including the fact that HAMAS....is just sending thousands of UNTARGETED rockets into Israel.

But, we all know. You are forbidden from telling the COMPLETE TRUTH.

[jafar00]

Target Assassination is the best way to avoid collateral damage and innocents harm, Collective Punishment was never an Israeli reaction, civilians do suffer from the actions of few, Israel does everything possible to avoid that.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=19067 - This is every day basis, you never happen to hear about it..
Anyway that debate is more than ridiculous, Jafar, do you know how Hamas became the government of Gaza?

The point is that when you make an agreement for a ceasefire, it means that you agreed to CEASE fire. When your countrymen treat treaties with such disdain, don't cry over a few bottle rockets in return.

[Daniyel]

The point is that when you make an agreement for a ceasefire, it means that you agreed to CEASE fire. When your countrymen treat treaties with such disdain, don't cry over a few bottle rockets in return.

Meh.. i could live with that, but the fifth time is enough.
Hamas broke their OWN ceasefire, imagine the frustration.

[jimnyc]

The point is that when you make an agreement for a ceasefire, it means that you agreed to CEASE fire. When your countrymen treat treaties with such disdain, don't cry over a few bottle rockets in return.

Can you please point me to where Hamas honored the most recent ceasefire? Oh, that's right, they didn't!! And even bragged about it.

So now that you made your point, WHAT will you say about Hamas admitting to ignoring the ceasefire today? Or will you bail from another thread?

[jimnyc]

Meh.. i could live with that, but the fifth time is enough.
Hamas broke their OWN ceasefire, imagine the frustration.

Hamas = terror group = terror supporters = death = violence = love to them

[aboutime]

The point is that when you make an agreement for a ceasefire, it means that you agreed to CEASE fire. When your countrymen treat treaties with such disdain, don't cry over a few bottle rockets in return.
Excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses. And jafar really doesn't believe any of us notice?

That propaganda machine is pretty powerful Brainwashing, eh jafar?

[Drummond]

Israel is doing targeted assassinations, hellfire rocket attacks from Helicopters, artillery salvos, kidnapping, and the illegal collective punishment and siege of a refugee camp. That is when they aren't levelling entire neighbourhoods and mowing down 20-30 women and children to get at a single Hamas operative that may or may not even be in the area.

I agree, no comparison.

And we know what the difficulty is, don't we ? It has emerged that Hamas has dug a network of tunnels designed to, in part, aid them in avoiding capture. These tunnels involve moving around in civilian areas, helping the terrorists blend in amongst the general population.

If you don't like seeing Israeli military actions result in any deaths of civilians, or damage done to civilian property or housing ... HOW ABOUT BLAMING HAMAS FOR IT ... FOR EMPLOYING TACTICS WHICH FORCE SUCH COUNTERMEASURES ?

The ones who really don't care about civilian casualties are the terrorist scum who've set all of this up, forcing such casualties.

But, Jafar, rather than acknowledge that reality, one forced upon Israel by Hamas, you run with the propaganda opportunities you think Hamas has handed you. LIKE THE 'GOOD' LITTLE SUPPORTER YOU ARE.

Don't you, Jafar ?

[Kathianne]

Reiterating what Jafar is saying: 'Israel has the means of identify Hamas and other terrorists individually. They warn those surrounding them to get out of the way. When they choose not to or are forced to stay, many are hurt/killed besides the target.

That is the choice of the target and those surrounding them or victims of them.

In other words, Israel has done what they can to target the bad guys, whom surround themselves with innocents. That Israel warns then strikes is bad.

[Drummond]

Reiterating what Jafar is saying: 'Israel has the means of identify Hamas and other terrorists individually. They warn those surrounding them to get out of the way. When they choose not to or are forced to stay, many are hurt/killed besides the target.

That is the choice of the target and those surrounding them or victims of them.

In other words, Israel has done what they can to target the bad guys, whom surround themselves with innocents. That Israel warns then strikes is bad.

I'm baffled by this. Are you saying that Israel should leave Hamas terrorists alone ? Or that they strike without giving any warnings ?

Hamas have made sure that they operate from within civilian-populated areas. Unless you're saying that the human shield tactic should be allowed to succeed ... I'm not following.

Reports from the past 24 hours or so also indicate that escape tunnels have been dug in order to help terrorists move around from one civilian area to another, always blending in. Let me ask: do you imagine all of this was done AGAINST the Gazans' wishes ?

Remember .. Hamas were voted into power there. They DO enjoy support.

[Jeff]

Israel is doing targeted assassinations, hellfire rocket attacks from Helicopters, artillery salvos, kidnapping, and the illegal collective punishment and siege of a refugee camp. That is when they aren't levelling entire neighbourhoods and mowing down 20-30 women and children to get at a single Hamas operative that may or may not even be in the area.

I agree, no comparison.

What you have described here is what your terrorist friends wish they could do, instead they strap bombs to children to kill innocents, or they fly planes into building to kill even more innocents, bury bombs in the ground to kill even more innocents, get real Dopey the terrorist could care less about you me or any Palestinian man woman or child, they kill there own to make a point.

As for the no comparison idiot that was about priest and terrorist , you are rather dense when push comes to shove or should I say when your terrorist brothers are getting there asses handed to them.

[Kathianne]

I'm baffled by this. Are you saying that Israel should leave Hamas terrorists alone ? Or that they strike without giving any warnings ?

Hamas have made sure that they operate from within civilian-populated areas. Unless you're saying that the human shield tactic should be allowed to succeed ... I'm not following.

Reports from the past 24 hours or so also indicate that escape tunnels have been dug in order to help terrorists move around from one civilian area to another, always blending in. Let me ask: do you imagine all of this was done AGAINST the Gazans' wishes ?

Remember .. Hamas were voted into power there. They DO enjoy support.

Don't be baffled, I should have written 'restated' instead of 'reiterated.' My bad. My opinion is that Israel has every right to go after identified target terrorists, they are going beyond the call in dropping leaflets and powering out announcements to the civilians hours before. In truth they are warning the targets ahead of time that they 'have them,' to think the civilians are 'all' staying put by their own will is laughable and a war crime on Hamas' part.

I hope that clears up my earlier post.

[Drummond]

Don't be baffled, I should have written 'restated' instead of 'reiterated.' My bad. My opinion is that Israel has every right to go after identified target terrorists, they are going beyond the call in dropping leaflets and powering out announcements to the civilians hours before. In truth they are warning the targets ahead of time that they 'have them,' to think the civilians are 'all' staying put by their own will is laughable and a war crime on Hamas' part.

I hope that clears up my earlier post.Fine, thanks, Kathianne.

-- And I take your point ! Issuring warnings is wholly counterproductive.

Yes. Hamas has a great deal to answer for in that regard.

[Jeff]

The point is that when you make an agreement for a ceasefire, it means that you agreed to CEASE fire. When your countrymen treat treaties with such disdain, don't cry over a few bottle rockets in return.

So now it is OK for Hamas to fire rockets because they aren't strong enough, a cease fire means no rockets in the air at all, but at least you cleared up your stance on Israel has broke all ceasefires, yes with your logic unless the rockets shot do major damage then they are just bottle rockets and it is OK

So there we have it folks, that is why Hamas is right, because they are trying ( have ) started a war with weak ammo :laugh:


Yes jafar you are a special kind of stupid, but then again so are all terrorist

[jafar00]

So now it is OK for Hamas to fire rockets because they aren't strong enough, a cease fire means no rockets in the air at all, but at least you cleared up your stance on Israel has broke all ceasefires, yes with your logic unless the rockets shot do major damage then they are just bottle rockets and it is OK

So there we have it folks, that is why Hamas is right, because they are trying ( have ) started a war with weak ammo :laugh:


Yes jafar you are a special kind of stupid, but then again so are all terrorist

A cease fire means a cease fire. Do you expect Hamas to just sit there and do nothing while Israel continues to attack them and occupy their land?

You are alone in supporting Israel in this. Over 1000 civilians dead in Gaza, vs 48 SOLDIERS and 3 civilians in Israel.

Remind me. What started this current conflict?

[NightTrain]

A cease fire means a cease fire. Do you expect Hamas to just sit there and do nothing while Israel continues to attack them and occupy their land?

Hamas broke the cease fire by firing more rockets at civilian targets, which is a war crime. Not Israel.


You are alone in supporting Israel in this. Over 1000 civilians dead in Gaza, vs 48 SOLDIERS and 3 civilians in Israel.
Wrong as usual. There are more people for good than people of your ilk supporting terrorists and terrorist organizations.

Is the government of Australia aware of your public support of a well documented and recognized terrorist organization?


Remind me. What started this current conflict?

Terrorists lobbing rockets at Israel. Fact.

[Jeff]

A cease fire means a cease fire. Do you expect Hamas to just sit there and do nothing while Israel continues to attack them and occupy their land?

The question is , is do youi think Israek ought to have to live with Hamas sending rockets into there cities ?

You are alone in supporting Israel in this. Over 1000 civilians dead in Gaza, vs 48 SOLDIERS and 3 civilians in Israel.

I am alone :laugh: guess again my terrorist friend

Remind me. What started this current conflict?

Rockets int Israel , and the Palestinians putting a terrorist group in charge and or cheering them on as they shot rockets into Israel.


Anough or do you need more ?

[jimnyc]

A cease fire means a cease fire. Do you expect Hamas to just sit there and do nothing while Israel continues to attack them and occupy their land?

You are alone in supporting Israel in this. Over 1000 civilians dead in Gaza, vs 48 SOLDIERS and 3 civilians in Israel.

Remind me. What started this current conflict?

Mostly the only idiots supporting terrorists are Muslims. Our government and mostly every other legit government (shy of Turkey) sees it the same. The only people protesting are the animal muslims looking for a reason to break things or start violence. Animals supporting animals.

You are seriously delusional or solely tuned in to Al Jazeera and Al Qaeda if you think the world is supporting terrorists and their supporters!

[aboutime]

A cease fire means a cease fire. Do you expect Hamas to just sit there and do nothing while Israel continues to attack them and occupy their land?
jafar. Please explain why HAMAS refused to observe the cease fire. Their OWN cease fire that caused Israel to respond. We all know you intentionally avoid MENTIONING that.

You are alone in supporting Israel in this. Over 1000 civilians dead in Gaza, vs 48 SOLDIERS and 3 civilians in Israel.
jafar. Really? WHO are you saying is ALONE in supporting Israel in this.
Did you forget again, how HAMAS told their own people to STAY WHERE THEY WERE?

Sounds like you support the HAMAS technique of HUMAN SHIELDS to convince other idiots like you,
how HAMAS is so INNOCENT?
Remind me. What started this current conflict?
And you laughingly ask WHO started the current conflict?
You really think all of us are as Naive, and Brainwashed as You?

[Hanging Judge]

Empty words when those so called surgical strikes result in this...

http://s3.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03_Children-Killed-on-Gaza-Beach.jpg

Blatant targeting of civilians is inhuman. They treat Palestinians, especially those in Gaza as less than insects.
The child was a shield the Hamas likes to use. They hide behind women and children so they can whine to the world about the innocent dead while they rejoice at trying to cause Israel trouble. All Hamas should be wiped off the map. Islam is nothing but a Satanic cult who has spit on what Allah once stood for. They are accursed and will suffer for it forever and it is their Satan who persecutes them. Like mindless ninnies you chant "Allahu Akbar" for Allah is great when the real translation is Satan is better. Well I got news for Islam. Jehovah, our God is greater. Israel will not be defeated. God bless this poor baby and all the women and children who die because Hamas are cowards. When you love your children more than you hate Jews there will be peace. Until then, Hamas is going to hell for the deaths they cause.

[aboutime]

And you laughingly ask WHO started the current conflict?
You really think all of us are as Naive, and Brainwashed as You?



Anyone notice how oddly quiet jafar has become after being DELUGED with TRUTHFUL facts he could never deny?

[Caliban]

My main problem with Israeli policy towards the islamofascist threat is similar to my problem with American policy towards the same: they always get cold feet and pull back before administering the death blow and always succumb to external and internal criticism and pressure. By doing that you merely keep the wound infected.

Netanyahu needs to annihilate Hamas for once and forever. And the next American president should follow his example ( Obama won't).

[tailfins]

My main problem with Israeli policy towards the islamofascist threat is similar to my problem with American policy towards the same: they always get cold feet and pull back before administering the death blow and always succumb to external and internal criticism and pressure. By doing that you merely keep the wound infected.

Netanyahu needs to annihilate Hamas for once and forever. And the next American president should follow his example ( Obama won't).

Netanyahu has been managing this for decades. I shake my head at people who think they know more about this than him. I'm certainly not interested in second guessing Israel. They know what they are doing.

[aboutime]

My main problem with Israeli policy towards the islamofascist threat is similar to my problem with American policy towards the same: they always get cold feet and pull back before administering the death blow and always succumb to external and internal criticism and pressure. By doing that you merely keep the wound infected.

Netanyahu needs to annihilate Hamas for once and forever. And the next American president should follow his example ( Obama won't).



Caliban. Most all of us who are Veterans agree with TODAY'S American policy. Today's American policies are OBAMA-DEMOCRAT-CUT and RUN policies designed to WEAKEN AMERICA, and AMERICAN MILITARY.

Netanyahu is a very capable, experienced leader. Much more in Sync with World Realities than Obama would ever dream of being aware of in any way.

Most Americans who have little educational background, or interest in anything Political. Have no idea who Netanyahu is, nor anything about how he has been defending Israel all of his life.
I wonder how many people here...and including Obama, or Democrats know Netanyahu's Brother was an Israeli War Hero who Died fighting for Israel.

[Caliban]

Caliban. Most all of us who are Veterans agree with TODAY'S American policy. Today's American policies are OBAMA-DEMOCRAT-CUT and RUN policies designed to WEAKEN AMERICA, and AMERICAN MILITARY.

Netanyahu is a very capable, experienced leader. Much more in Sync with World Realities than Obama would ever dream of being aware of in any way.

Most Americans who have little educational background, or interest in anything Political. Have no idea who Netanyahu is, nor anything about how he has been defending Israel all of his life.
I wonder how many people here...and including Obama, or Democrats know Netanyahu's Brother was an Israeli War Hero who Died fighting for Israel.

Very few know about BeeBee's bro, sadly enough. His family is one that has been fighting the adherents of the Death Cult Moon God for many, many years. They know what keeping on top of threats like this implies, and how you can't show a moment's weakness.

We all have to reorient ourselves and our attitudes and think and behave as if it were Rome in the late 4th century, with hordes of barbarians forever testing our borders and threatening to erupt into our lands. Because that's what ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc actually are: the Huns, Vandals and Visigoths of our time.

[Daniyel]

Netanyahu is a very wise politician, most of the Israeli leaders were one way or the other fighters but consider getting criticized indicates democracy works well, once there is none..well its not a democracy anymore.. I think you right, the definition of 'Terrorists' is pretty out of date in this cases, they are more like "Extreme-Offenders" type of organizations, mixing totalitarianism with terror-oriented actions, struggling for the violence at all cost.
I can't even find a good definition but Terrorist is simply out of date.

[Kathianne]

Very few know about BeeBee's bro, sadly enough. His family is one that has been fighting the adherents of the Death Cult Moon God for many, many years. They know what keeping on top of threats like this implies, and how you can't show a moment's weakness.

We all have to reorient ourselves and our attitudes and think and behave as if it were Rome in the late 4th century, with hordes of barbarians forever testing our borders and threatening to erupt into our lands. Because that's what ISIS, Al Qaeda, Hamas, etc actually are: the Huns, Vandals and Visigoths of our time.

Wow, very well put!

[aboutime]

Netanyahu is a very wise politician, most of the Israeli leaders were one way or the other fighters but consider getting criticized indicates democracy works well, once there is none..well its not a democracy anymore.. I think you right, the definition of 'Terrorists' is pretty out of date in this cases, they are more like "Extreme-Offenders" type of organizations, mixing totalitarianism with terror-oriented actions, struggling for the violence at all cost.
I can't even find a good definition but Terrorist is simply out of date.



Daniyel. This may sound terrible to many Americans here on this forum, but Honestly. If Netanyahu was to run for President HERE..if he was eligible. I would vote for him. If for nothing else than HIS ENDLESS COURAGE to defend HIS HOMELAND...despite all of the nay-sayers we have, like Obama, and the Democrats who only know how to APPEASE, and CUT & RUN.

Netanyahu's worst day, while sleeping...IS BETTER than any of OBAMA's best days.

[Kathianne]

Daniyel. This may sound terrible to many Americans here on this forum, but Honestly. If Netanyahu was to run for President HERE..if he was eligible. I would vote for him. If for nothing else than HIS ENDLESS COURAGE to defend HIS HOMELAND...despite all of the nay-sayers we have, like Obama, and the Democrats who only know how to APPEASE, and CUT & RUN.

Netanyahu's worst day, while sleeping...IS BETTER than any of OBAMA's best days.

That's not saying much, you are using faint praise.

At this point in time, I believe Israel, through it's leadership, needs to make a clear announcement that YES they have a shield and YES they are going to respond to those that keep testing it. If the enemies don't wish to be annihilated, they are going to renounce the violence and the promise of destruction of Israel.

[Drummond]

That's not saying much, you are using faint praise.

At this point in time, I believe Israel, through it's leadership, needs to make a clear announcement that YES they have a shield and YES they are going to respond to those that keep testing it. If the enemies don't wish to be annihilated, they are going to renounce the violence and the promise of destruction of Israel.

I certainly agree with that last part. Realistically, it's the only way to go. Not that I believe Hamas would take that up, since it defies their whole reason for existing. But even so, Israel should insist on it.

[Daniyel]

Its pretty much lost battle, the majority of world-criticism on Israel is not the type of people that like us anyway, I mean Netanyahu accepted every ceasefire, play all by the rules, the death of unfortunate civilians is the lowest ever had, in many terms it is not even a physical war but mostly media-politics war and Israel couldn't do much anyway, the problem is not what Cuba or Syria absurd criticism - but with the neutral-interest type of states that sided against Israel out of interest for example, the UK.. The problem with Obama is the way he work by the neutral-interest type of consideration which is a good move for the short run but in the long run it only cause damage with all the American affairs and interests.

Take a look - Haag..these are ISIS flags, don't be mistaken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o443KJiBTU

[Drummond]

It's ultimately this simple: if widespread opinion and biases - for WHATEVER reason - are against Israel, then Israel needs to decide whether it'll be a slave to others' media wars, OR, whether Israel will put the welfare of its people above all that !!!

I can't believe that the Israeli Government will sell out its people for the sake of uneducated bigots.

And, for my money, that's all that basically needs to be said.

Here's an example of the unacceptable face of Israeli opposition ....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/07/ban-israeli-tourists-from-bradford-says-george-galloway_n_5657464.html


Israeli tourists are not welcome in Bradford, according to local MP George Galloway in a speech to Respect party activists.

The Guido Fawkes blog posted a video of the Bradford West MP speaking to party members in Leeds in front of a Palestinian flag, calling for harsh, if implausible, measures to protest his anger at the month-long bombardment of the Gaza Strip.

“We have declared Bradford an Israel free zone. We don’t want any Israeli goods. We don’t want any Israeli services. We don’t want any Israeli academics, coming to the university or the college.

"We don’t even want any Israeli tourists to come to Bradford, if any of them had thought of doing so.

Needless to say, Israel will be heartbroken ...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Caliban]

It's ultimately this simple: if widespread opinion and biases - for WHATEVER reason - are against Israel, then Israel needs to decide whether it'll be a slave to others' media wars, OR, whether Israel will put the welfare of its people above all that !!!

I can't believe that the Israeli Government will sell out its people for the sake of uneducated bigots.

And, for my money, that's all that basically needs to be said.

Here's an example of the unacceptable face of Israeli opposition ....

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/07/ban-israeli-tourists-from-bradford-says-george-galloway_n_5657464.html



Needless to say, Israel will be heartbroken ...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

But Galloway has always been been a joke and a political trimmer anyhow:

First he parades around as a far-left Labour firebrand, and then as a spokesman for the darkest, most reactionary islamofascism imaginable. And as I seem to recall, as a terrorist spokesman, he's not allowed into certain countries, Canada for instance.