Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9)

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA)

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

...

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

...

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

Not convincing. I don't accept that competition is evil and that you've relegated evil to the necessary. We can choose not to do evil by not killing, not torturing, not enslaving, etc. Now of course we can't help but sin but all sin is likely not "evil."

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Not convincing. I don't accept that competition is evil and that you've relegated evil to the necessary. We can choose not to do evil by not killing, not torturing, not enslaving, etc. Now of course we can't help but sin but all sin is likely not "evil."

So when you have competed for a job/resources against another and won the job, you do not think the one who lost to you will think evil came his way because now his family might go hungry.

Strange.

Do you like to lose important competitions like for a job?

I know that you likely live where there are social safety nets, but try thinking of the same scenario where there are none and someone might actually starve if he loses too many competitions.

Do you still deny that competition is evil when they kill those who lose at them?

Regard
DL

[Little-Acorn]

So when you have competed for a job/resources against another and won the job, you do not think the one who lost to you will think evil came his way because now his family might go hungry.

Strange.

Do you like to lose important competitions like for a job?

I know that you likely live where there are social safety nets, but try thinking of the same scenario where there are none and someone might actually starve if he loses too many competitions.

Do you still deny that competition is evil when they kill those who lose at them?

Regard
DL

Do you live in a world where there is no charity, no compassion?

Where on Earth is that, and why do you choose to live there?

[Little-Acorn]

BTW, I googled a few lines of your post, and found that there are about 8,000 copies already floating around on the internet.

It's polite to post a link along with what you are copying and pasting, so others know who you copied it from.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Do you live in a world where there is no charity, no compassion?

Where on Earth is that, and why do you choose to live there?

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt (file:///C:/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo385439.html)

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

BTW, I googled a few lines of your post, and found that there are about 8,000 copies already floating around on the internet.

It's polite to post a link along with what you are copying and pasting, so others know who you copied it from.

Why when I have he original.

If you are going to be busy body then do a better research job.

Regards
DL

[aboutime]

Do you live in a world where there is no charity, no compassion?

Where on Earth is that, and why do you choose to live there?


LA. I couldn't help but wonder WHERE on Earth this person, "Gnostic" lives to have such a complete, negative image to bring here? Sounds like sharing misery, and being downtrodden is a sad way to live.:laugh:

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

LA. I couldn't help but wonder WHERE on Earth this person, "Gnostic" lives to have such a complete, negative image to bring here? Sounds like sharing misery, and being downtrodden is a sad way to live.:laugh:

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt (file:///C:/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo385439.html)

Regards
DL

[Little-Acorn]

LA. I couldn't help but wonder WHERE on Earth this person, "Gnostic" lives to have such a complete, negative image to bring here? Sounds like sharing misery, and being downtrodden is a sad way to live.:laugh:

When I suspect that a poster is merely putting up a strawman argument, I sometimes offer him a chance to clarify, and demonstrate that he's talking about a real situation and not an imaginary, made-up one.

This poster has declined to offer any clarification.

That's all I need to know.

[aboutime]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt (file:///C:/quotes/quotes/e/eleanorroo385439.html)

Regards
DL


Wonderful response. So, we're expected to be bedazzled by your proclivity to offer quotes, rather than using your own words?

Sort of answers my question about you.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Wonderful response. So, we're expected to be bedazzled by your proclivity to offer quotes, rather than using your own words?

Sort of answers my question about you.

Exactly the point. About me.

Regards
DL

[darin]

I do not do evil. I almost never do evil. What we 'do' is neither evil nor holy. 'why' we do it...that's something else :)

[Abbey Marie]

You know what IS evil? Trying to destroy others' faith.
-Abbey

(Btw, that is an idea, so feel free to admire my obviously GARGANTUAN mind).

[aboutime]

Exactly the point. About me.

Regards
DL


So, as I expected. This is ALL ABOUT YOU! Selfishness, and Vanity usually destroy False Prophets. (aboutime)

[darin]

If Abbey was "evil" i suppose i couldnt help but 'do' her :)

[Drummond]

Exactly the point. About me.

Regards
DL

... what, exactly ? That you have little original thought of your own to offer ?

Here's my advice.

If you're committed to prose which is taken from others ... acknowledge that, whenever you quote it, by ensuring that its originator always gets his or her due recognition for it.

If you're committed to supplying debating points of your own, on this, a discussion site existing for just that purpose, then why not begin to post them ? DEBATE with us, directly, as others here do. Have a direct inter-activity going. Test the worth of YOUR thoughts and opinions.

[fj1200]

So when you have competed for a job/resources against another and won the job, you do not think the one who lost to you will think evil came his way because now his family might go hungry.

Strange.

Do you like to lose important competitions like for a job?

I know that you likely live where there are social safety nets, but try thinking of the same scenario where there are none and someone might actually starve if he loses too many competitions.

Do you still deny that competition is evil when they kill those who lose at them?

First point, I have no idea what he will think but if he merely lost a job only an irrational mind would consider it evil. You speak of mens rea, intent, there is no intent of evil when an employer merely choose the best candidate for the job. Second point, yes. I live where there are safety nets but I did not see evil when I wasn't the successful candidate for the job. Whether there are safety nets is unimportant to your point as there is still no intent of evil by employers.

Your final point, competition does not kill. Your position needs you to ignore the fact that competition leads to far greater living standards for far more people than does cooperation, read communism/socialism. Therefore the more logical conclusion of your position is that cooperation is evil as it leads to death. William Bradford would agree with me it seems:

According to Governor Bradford, extreme communalism wasn’t doing the job in Plymouth, Massachusetts ca. 1623. (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/communism-capitalism-and-the-third-thanksgiving/)

Whille no supply was heard of, neither knew they when they might expecte any. So they begane to thinke how they might raise as much torne [corn] as they could, and obtaine a beter crope then they had done, that they might not still thus languish in miserie. At length, after much debate of things, the Govr (with the advise of the cheefest amongest them) gave way that they should set corve [crops from labor] every man for his owne perticuler, and in that regard trust to them selves; in all other things to goe on in the generall way as before. And so assigned to every family a parcell of land, according to the proportion of their number for that end, only for present use (but made no devission for inheritance), and ranged all boys and youth under some familie. This had very good success; for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more torne was planted then other waise would have bene by any means the Govr or any other could use, and saved him a great deall of trouble, and gave farr better contente. The women now wente willingly into the feild, and tooke their litle-ons with them to set torne, which before would aledg weaknes, and inabilitie; whom to have compelled would have bene thought great tiranie and oppression.

[fj1200]

... what, exactly ? That you have little original thought of your own to offer ?

Here's my advice.

Some more advice, a little investigation would see that he does post his own words. Whether he copies or pastes same all over the message board universe is a separate issue.

[fj1200]

... a real situation and not an imaginary, made-up one.

What about God and evil wold be a "real situation"? Either you believe that God and evil is real making his question a "real situation" or you don't.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You know what IS evil? Trying to destroy others' faith.
-Abbey

(Btw, that is an idea, so feel free to admire my obviously GARGANTUAN mind).


“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”


“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/martinluth151422.html) “



Do you think people who have discarded their logic and reason for faith should be helped to return to reason?

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1)


They also do much harm to their own.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related)


Jesus Camp 1of 3
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=48b_1185215493)

Death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_BVzw&feature=related)


For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

You know what IS evil? Trying to destroy others' faith.
-Abbey

Are you aware of the killing and scripture burning spree that the Orthodox Church went on right after Constantine bought them?

It was certainly evil, I agree with you, for Christianity to try o destroy others faith, by threats and murder.

Do you have any idea how many died then and thought the Inquisition that followed?

Regards
DL

[darin]

Anyone who needs to use a religious title with their name has a problem with pride.

There IS no battle with Evil; christ's substitutional attonement already won the war. The only battles we have today are with our pride and foolishness.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

So, as I expected. This is ALL ABOUT YOU! Selfishness, and Vanity usually destroy False Prophets. (aboutime)

You either misunderstand or are just a prick. The others post was all about me and that is why I did not engage.

Regards
DL


... what, exactly ? That you have little original thought of your own to offer ?

Here's my advice.

If you're committed to prose which is taken from others ... acknowledge that, whenever you quote it, by ensuring that its originator always gets his or her due recognition for it.

If you're committed to supplying debating points of your own, on this, a discussion site existing for just that purpose, then why not begin to post them ? DEBATE with us, directly, as others here do. Have a direct inter-activity going. Test the worth of YOUR thoughts and opinions.

We have an O. P. Get to it and you wishes will be granted.

Regards
DL


First point, I have no idea what he will think but if he merely lost a job only an irrational mind would consider it evil. You speak of mens rea, intent, there is no intent of evil when an employer merely choose the best candidate for the job. Second point, yes. I live where there are safety nets but I did not see evil when I wasn't the successful candidate for the job. Whether there are safety nets is unimportant to your point as there is still no intent of evil by employers.

Your final point, competition does not kill. Your position needs you to ignore the fact that competition leads to far greater living standards for far more people than does cooperation, read communism/socialism. Therefore the more logical conclusion of your position is that cooperation is evil as it leads to death. William Bradford would agree with me it seems:

According to Governor Bradford, extreme communalism wasn’t doing the job in Plymouth, Massachusetts ca. 1623. (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/communism-capitalism-and-the-third-thanksgiving/)
[B][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]

You deflected by going to blaming the employer. He has nothing to do with our scenario. You are competing and creating the negative for the loser Not your employer.

To say that competition does not kill is to ignore all of nature.

Regards
DL


Anyone who needs to use a religious title with their name has a problem with pride.

There IS no battle with Evil; christ's substitutional attonement already won the war. The only battles we have today are with our pride and foolishness.

So as not to derail here.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?46048-How-will-you-get-yourself-into-heaven-On-your-own-merit-or-via-a-scapegoat&p=694915#post694915

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

You deflected by going to blaming the employer. He has nothing to do with our scenario. You are competing and creating the negative for the loser Not your employer.

To say that competition does not kill is to ignore all of nature.

Um, no. You staked your claim on intent and are attempting to place the act of evil on a third party who is in no position to commit an evil act on someone (likely) unknown to them. You also ignored that cooperation is more "evil" by outcome under your argument than competition. Oh, and nature is one thing while reasoned individuals is quite another. Another try perhaps?

[Abbey Marie]

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”


“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”
Martin Luther (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/martinluth151422.html)“



Do you think people who have discarded their logic and reason for faith should be helped to return to reason?


DL

This sentence shows me that you know nothing about what it means to have faith.
I stand by my point that it is EVIL to try to make others lose their faith in God. Perhaps you will answer for that someday.

Btw, even if somehow you are correct, why do you feel you are the one to set us all straight? Are you ordained by some superior being to do so? Or is it colossal hubris that makes you think the job is yours?

[aboutime]

This sentence shows me that you know nothing about what it means to have faith.
I stand by my point that it is EVIL to try to make others lose their faith in God. Perhaps you will answer for that someday.

Btw, even if somehow you are correct, why do you feel you are the one to set us all straight? Are you ordained by some superior being to do so? Or is it colossal hubris that makes you think the job is yours?


Abbey. About twenty five years ago. I met a man who sounded like, and seemed to hold very similar, selfish feelings, and thoughts that he attempted to demand...other people MUST ACCEPT.

So much, in fact. He actually spent long days, and nights editing several King James Versions of Bibles he either bought, or happened to find on his own.
He edited those Bibles, even to the point of performing his own...cutting, and pasting of the scriptures on the pages of those Bibles...to meet his interpretation of the words. He used an Xxacto Knife, and scotch tape to do his editing.

I bring all this up since Gnostic reminds me of this man, being in need of having a domination..of sorts, over all of us who happen to read his words..under the guise of exercising 1st amendment freedoms. But stretched to extremes that show the suggestion of Mental disorder, or disease.

I had to say this, because. That man who attempted to edit/rewrite those Bibles, just happened to be my youngest Brother who passed away after contracting, and suffering through AIDS. While being unable to afford the treatments which led him to stealing our Mother's med's, and selling them for the drugs that eventually destroyed and killed him. So. I am weary, and highly defensive against FALSE PROPHETS like Gnostic...who claim to be ALL POWERFUL, and self-appointed messengers of scriptures...BASTARDIZED to suit the selfishness of a miserable existence that found a place like DP to spread hatred through ignorance, and stupidity. Much like Democrats who are destroying almost everything America once was.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Um, no. You staked your claim on intent and are attempting to place the act of evil on a third party who is in no position to commit an evil act on someone (likely) unknown to them. You also ignored that cooperation is more "evil" by outcome under your argument than competition. Oh, and nature is one thing while reasoned individuals is quite another. Another try perhaps?

Not with you if you do not have the wit to see that you have brought in the third party and think cooperation has more evil than competition.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

This sentence shows me that you know nothing about what it means to have faith.
I stand by my point that it is EVIL to try to make others lose their faith in God. Perhaps you will answer for that someday.

Btw, even if somehow you are correct, why do you feel you are the one to set us all straight? Are you ordained by some superior being to do so? Or is it colossal hubris that makes you think the job is yours?

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Faith without facts is for fools. Be as you like.

As a Gnostic Christian, I have done my Christian duty.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Abbey. About twenty five years ago. I met a man who sounded like, and seemed to hold very similar, selfish feelings, and thoughts that he attempted to demand...other people MUST ACCEPT.

So much, in fact. He actually spent long days, and nights editing several King James Versions of Bibles he either bought, or happened to find on his own.
He edited those Bibles, even to the point of performing his own...cutting, and pasting of the scriptures on the pages of those Bibles...to meet his interpretation of the words. He used an Xxacto Knife, and scotch tape to do his editing.

I bring all this up since Gnostic reminds me of this man, being in need of having a domination..of sorts, over all of us who happen to read his words..under the guise of exercising 1st amendment freedoms. But stretched to extremes that show the suggestion of Mental disorder, or disease.

I had to say this, because. That man who attempted to edit/rewrite those Bibles, just happened to be my youngest Brother who passed away after contracting, and suffering through AIDS. While being unable to afford the treatments which led him to stealing our Mother's med's, and selling them for the drugs that eventually destroyed and killed him. So. I am weary, and highly defensive against FALSE PROPHETS like Gnostic...who claim to be ALL POWERFUL, and self-appointed messengers of scriptures...BASTARDIZED to suit the selfishness of a miserable existence that found a place like DP to spread hatred through ignorance, and stupidity. Much like Democrats who are destroying almost everything America once was.

And you think I hate. Good God. Look in the mirror and remember how your side murdered the Gnostics the moment Constantine bought you. Nice birth for your religion eh? You don't care at all do you?

Nice morals Christian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNSe4Ff57n4&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Not with you if you do not have the wit to see that you have brought in the third party and think cooperation has more evil than competition.

That you didn't have the foresight to mention the undeniable actor and the one with the power in your story is not my fault. FWIW you don't win debates by just stating you've won, you win them by having a better argument and so far I've shown that competition is far superior to cooperation.

[fj1200]

As a Gnostic Christian, I have done my Christian duty.

Do all Gnostic Christians try and tear down others or do some try and build up?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

That you didn't have the foresight to mention the undeniable actor and the one with the power in your story is not my fault. FWIW you don't win debates by just stating you've won, you win them by having a better argument and so far I've shown that competition is far superior to cooperation.

:laugh:

I cannot declare a win but you can.

Typical Christian reciprocity.

You have not shown how cooperation is more damaging than competition.

If you think you have then show he damage. That would b the argument that you have ye to make.

I love to learn. Please teach.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Do all Gnostic Christians try and tear down others or do some try and build up?

Only as required. Remember your murders of Gnostic Christians. I do not tear down anywhere near the way your religion has so save your holier than though.

We used to build constantly before Christianity went to literal belief and killed us off with Constantine's help and funding.

Literal reading has made a mockery of a decent theology and Christians now call evil good.

If you want proof of that then just ask yourself, --- what is wrong in becoming as Gods the way A & E did?

Hint.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Only as required. Remember your murders of Gnostic Christians. I do not tear down anywhere near the way your religion has so save your holier than though.

We used to build constantly before Christianity went to literal belief and killed us off with Constantine's help and funding.

Literal reading has made a mockery of a decent theology and Christians now call evil good.

If you want proof of that then just ask yourself, --- what is wrong in becoming as Gods the way A & E did?

Well, let's see; I haven't murdered anyone, I'm holier than hardly anyone, and I've seen your arguments here so far. I have yet to see a positive argument for Gnostic Christianity.

[fj1200]

:laugh:

I cannot declare a win but you can.

Typical Christian reciprocity.

You have not shown how cooperation is more damaging than competition.

If you think you have then show he damage. That would b the argument that you have ye to make.

I love to learn. Please teach.

I only declare a win when I directly counter the premise upon which you base your argument by providing evidence which counters what you proclaim. And I haven't made a Christian argument here. I'll just leave this (more) evidence that competition is superior to cooperation here:


‘Entrepreneurial capitalism takes more people out of poverty than aid.” That statement came not from a tea-party leader or a congressional Republican, but from Bono, singer, celebrity, and global anti-poverty activist, speaking to Georgetown’s Global Social Enterprise Initiative last year.
As we mark the second anniversary of Occupy Wall Street this week, it is worth recalling just how much Bono is right and OWS, at its anti-capitalist core, is deeply and profoundly wrong.
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358771/capitalisms-triumph-michael-tanner

I'll grant you that cooperation is the easy choice for people to make but competition is the correct choice. The argument has been made. :)

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Well, let's see; I haven't murdered anyone, I'm holier than hardly anyone, and I've seen your arguments here so far. I have yet to see a positive argument for Gnostic Christianity.

My oversight and bad.

Is being one of the few of the Abrahamic cults that do not deny women and gays equality good enough for you?

Or do you refer the Christian and Muslim way of discrimination without jus cause?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I only declare a win when I directly counter the premise upon which you base your argument by providing evidence which counters what you proclaim. And I haven't made a Christian argument here. I'll just leave this (more) evidence that competition is superior to cooperation here:


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/358771/capitalisms-triumph-michael-tanner

I'll grant you that cooperation is the easy choice for people to make but competition is the correct choice. The argument has been made. :)

Quick. Send a copy to Putin. He is all in for competition.
Tell Obama that he should be ignoring Putin as he I doing the correct thing.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

My oversight and bad.

Is being one of the few of the Abrahamic cults that do not deny women and gays equality good enough for you?

Or do you refer the Christian and Muslim way of discrimination without jus cause?

Good for you, I guess we're in the same boat. And nice attempt to lump everyone in the same boat btw. It's about par for the course. :rolleyes:

[fj1200]

Quick. Send a copy to Putin. He is all in for competition.
Tell Obama that he should be ignoring Putin as he I doing the correct thing.

Um, what does that have to do with the discussion? And Putin doesn't believe in free markets for all that I'm aware of.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Good for you, I guess we're in the same boat. And nice attempt to lump everyone in the same boat btw. It's about par for the course. :rolleyes:

They fly he same flag but if you want to put them in separate boats, go ahead.

Just make sure that they know that the law of the sea applies and secular law will force Christians and Muslims to do the right thing. The are enough people in the Captain Coward Club.

Including you sounds like.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

They fly he same flag but if you want to put them in separate boats, go ahead.

Just make sure that they know that the law of the sea applies and secular law will force Christians and Muslims to do the right thing. The are enough people in the Captain Coward Club.

Including you sounds like.

No, not really but this relates to the topic how?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

No, not really but this relates to the topic how?

It does not. If you wish to get back to it I am here for you.

Can you help but do evil?
Why not?

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

It does not. If you wish to get back to it I am here for you.

Can you help but do evil?
Why not?

Re-read the thread please. Specifically post #2, 18, 25, etc.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

:lame2:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqeSUAlI5uI

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

:lame2:

:dunno:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwS1tC9Mp00

[logroller]

Evil is the lack of good. Do good and you don't do evil.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Evil is the lack of good. Do good and you don't do evil.

Yes but if you do good and never compete, you will die.

Thanks for showing your simplistic view though. Come back hen you feel like thinking.

Do try reading the O.P.

Regards
DL

[tailfins]

Romans 3:23 <small style="color:#999999;">Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Romans 3:23 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Romans-3-23/). </small>


For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Romans 3:23

<small style="color: rgb(153, 153, 153);">Viewing the King James Version. Click to switch to 1611 King James Version of Romans 3:23 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Romans-3-23/). </small>


For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;



Exactly my point. That is how we are created and for God to punish us for following his God given nature is immoral. Right?

We cannot help doing what we do as we must do it to survive.

Regards
DL

[jimnyc]

I ate a baby once.

[tailfins]

Exactly my point. That is how we are created and for God to punish us for following his God given nature is immoral. Right?

We cannot help doing what we do as we must do it to survive.

Regards
DL

God didn't create us that way. It is the corruption passed on from Adam and Eve.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I ate a baby once.

Girls are more tender than boys.

Regard
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

God didn't create us that way. It is the corruption passed on from Adam and Eve.

Then it would be a corruption that God put in them.

If you are to be foolish enough to believe in a creator God, then you have t allow that he created all conditions at all times.

Think entropy.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Yes but if you do good and never compete, you will die.

Thanks for showing your simplistic view though. Come back hen you feel like thinking.

Your OP has been invalidated. I've already shown that competition is not evil.

[aboutime]

Hypocrisy from Gnostic. Competing here for false recognition, and claiming it is a sin to Compete?

Funny stuff.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Hypocrisy from Gnostic. Competing here for false recognition, and claiming it is a sin to Compete?

Funny stuff.

I sais competition created losers and they would think hat evil has come their way. I did no indicate it was a sin.

Where did I ask for recognition or false recognition?

Were you thinking of someone else? If not, get the quote.

Regards
L

[logroller]

Yes but if you do good and never compete, you will die.

Thanks for showing your simplistic view though. Come back hen you feel like thinking.

Do try reading the O.P.

Regards
DL
I never said I wouldn't compete...so, Once again, you presume too much. Your sardonic response does nothing to overcome your repeated logical fallacy. Google false dichotomy and get back to me with a sound argument.

[logroller]

Yes but if you do good and never compete, you will die.
Competition or not, every body dies. Belief in Him has survived millennia. Why do suppose that is so?

[DragonStryk72]

So when you have competed for a job/resources against another and won the job, you do not think the one who lost to you will think evil came his way because now his family might go hungry.

Strange.

Do you like to lose important competitions like for a job?

I know that you likely live where there are social safety nets, but try thinking of the same scenario where there are none and someone might actually starve if he loses too many competitions.

Do you still deny that competition is evil when they kill those who lose at them?

Regard
DL

Well, no. He'll be like, "Well, shit," and move on to the next job attempt (Trust me, I've been the guy saying, "well, shit" more than enough times the last couple of years.). If he's in most of the civilized world, his family will still have fall backs like Food Stamps, welfare, food banks, and the like. Competition is not evil, but how we handle such can be. If he isn't in one of the civilized areas, then he still has Catholic/Muslim charities, as well as neighbors, and other good people willing to help out for work in trade and the like. (These are private, and occur the world over, so if you're striking these places, then, well, you've just done in your whole point, since this isn't occurring on Earth anymore.)

No one enjoys losing, but wanting to win isn't evil in and of itself. You're trying to black and white everything, which of course is never correct. Example: Going in and giving the best interview you can, resting on your solid resume, and letters of rec? Not evil. Kneecapping the guy in the lobby by talking crap about him to your interviewer? Minor-league evil.

Evil is an act of volition, not "Well, something bad happened somewhere because of what you did, even though you weren't doing anything but picking up a job to feed you and your family." By your summation, saving a puppy is evil, because it might go maul a small child, which is utter horseshit. It's the sort of dogmatic anal-retentiveness that Christ slapped down the Pharisees for.

These sorts of "ethical" debates are absolutely fruitless, because they're just patently ridiculous, and not really debates. Again, according to you, applying first aid to someone who is dying could be construed as evil, because "What if".

[DragonStryk72]

Exactly my point. That is how we are created and for God to punish us for following his God given nature is immoral. Right?

We cannot help doing what we do as we must do it to survive.

Regards
DL

Actually, it isn't. It is in my *nature* to acquire food, but because I was imbued with free will, I can choose how I go about obtaining said food. Sure, I could take it out of my brother's hand, but I know that such a thing is wrong, and mean. So, I go to the kitchen and grab a sandwich. Failing other sources of food, I can choose to ask for some, or choose to go out to get some, somewhere. Failing money, I can choose to go fishing, or to work for some food, or even see about trade some of my stuff for food.

Nature is no excuse, and it never was. In order to have free will, we have to have the ability to choose bad things, it's that simple. Anything else, and it isn't free will. The choice to fulfill what our natures desire in a way that is not harmful is almost always within our will to find a way to do. Further, anything that would obviate my own free will is not on me, because I have no will. Evil is an act of volition.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Competition or not, every body dies. Belief in Him has survived millennia. Why do suppose that is so?

It is due to a figment of your imagination.

If not, produce the prick so that I can have a go at him before the Haig does his genocidal son murdering ass.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Well, no. He'll be like, "Well, shit," and move on to the next job attempt (Trust me, I've been the guy saying, "well, shit" more than enough times the last couple of years.). If he's in most of the civilized world, his family will still have fall backs like Food Stamps, welfare, food banks, and the like. Competition is not evil, but how we handle such can be. If he isn't in one of the civilized areas, then he still has Catholic/Muslim charities, as well as neighbors, and other good people willing to help out for work in trade and the like. (These are private, and occur the world over, so if you're striking these places, then, well, you've just done in your whole point, since this isn't occurring on Earth anymore.)

No one enjoys losing, but wanting to win isn't evil in and of itself. You're trying to black and white everything, which of course is never correct. Example: Going in and giving the best interview you can, resting on your solid resume, and letters of rec? Not evil. Kneecapping the guy in the lobby by talking crap about him to your interviewer? Minor-league evil.

Evil is an act of volition, not "Well, something bad happened somewhere because of what you did, even though you weren't doing anything but picking up a job to feed you and your family." By your summation, saving a puppy is evil, because it might go maul a small child, which is utter horseshit. It's the sort of dogmatic anal-retentiveness that Christ slapped down the Pharisees for.

These sorts of "ethical" debates are absolutely fruitless, because they're just patently ridiculous, and not really debates. Again, according to you, applying first aid to someone who is dying could be construed as evil, because "What if".

You, with your comfy social safety net can take a hit or sure.

Try that thinking where there is none and where you kip to might be the gave.

You have thought from the winner's view now try from the loser.

Man competing against man kills at least 10 million children under 10 years of age yearly who die from starvation an other easily preventable conditions.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Actually, it isn't. It is in my *nature* to acquire food, but because I was imbued with free will, I can choose how I go about obtaining said food. Sure, I could take it out of my brother's hand, but I know that such a thing is wrong, and mean. So, I go to the kitchen and grab a sandwich. Failing other sources of food, I can choose to ask for some, or choose to go out to get some, somewhere. Failing money, I can choose to go fishing, or to work for some food, or even see about trade some of my stuff for food.

Nature is no excuse, and it never was. In order to have free will, we have to have the ability to choose bad things, it's that simple. Anything else, and it isn't free will. The choice to fulfill what our natures desire in a way that is not harmful is almost always within our will to find a way to do. Further, anything that would obviate my own free will is not on me, because I have no will. Evil is an act of volition.

True.

For you, the next time you compete, it will be yes. Your volition will do evil to the next loser you create as you will be aware that he will see him loss as evil.

Please read the post just above as well. Thanks.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

Man competing against man kills at least 10 million children under 10 years of age yearly who die from starvation an other easily preventable conditions.

Ummm, noooooo. Those conditions are indeed preventable but it's the opposite of competition, totalitarian dictators with a socialist bent, who are the cause of starvation in the world today. Do you allow any thought to the contrary of your position to enter your brain?

[DragonStryk72]

True.

For you, the next time you compete, it will be yes. Your volition will do evil to the next loser you create as you will be aware that he will see him loss as evil.

Please read the post just above as well. Thanks.

Regards
DL

Oh no, someone lost at Munchkin... AAAAGHGHHH!! The horror! The horror! He might... need to play another game to win.

[DragonStryk72]

You, with your comfy social safety net can take a hit or sure.

Try that thinking where there is none and where you kip to might be the gave.

You have thought from the winner's view now try from the loser.

Man competing against man kills at least 10 million children under 10 years of age yearly who die from starvation an other easily preventable conditions.

Regards
DL

Ah good, you didn't read the whole thing. Already covered this. Religion exists in every corner of the globe, and along with, exist charities to help feed the poor. Failing that, the US and other developed nations send out to those places that are especially stricken, not only sending food but medicines as well.

Actually, it's more malnutrition and disease that kills, not starvation itself.

I don't get where this "competition" you keep pointing to is.

You're still not proving competition as evil, and I'd like the links to prove that it is competition that kills, not starvation, dictatorships and the like. You have burdened yourself, through your OP, with having to prove in debate that competition is evil, just to head off any back out attempts you might pull.

God, you are really bad at this, man.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Ummm, noooooo. Those conditions are indeed preventable but it's the opposite of competition, totalitarian dictators with a socialist bent, who are the cause of starvation in the world today. Do you allow any thought to the contrary of your position to enter your brain?

Absolutely but if any of my idea are easily refuted that would mean I did not think things through as well as I usually do. Remember that if I win a debate I gain nothing. If I lose one, There is the gold. I learn something.

"totalitarian dictators with a socialist bent".

How is their cooperation killing all those young people?

I imagine you had a couple of regimes in mind. Care to share?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Ah good, you didn't read the whole thing. Already covered this. Religion exists in every corner of the globe, and along with, exist charities to help feed the poor. Failing that, the US and other developed nations send out to those places that are especially stricken, not only sending food but medicines as well.

Actually, it's more malnutrition and disease that kills, not starvation itself.

I don't get where this "competition" you keep pointing to is.

You're still not proving competition as evil, and I'd like the links to prove that it is competition that kills, not starvation, dictatorships and the like. You have burdened yourself, through your OP, with having to prove in debate that competition is evil, just to head off any back out attempts you might pull.

God, you are really bad at this, man.

The proof is in pure logic. If we were all cooperating even a coupe of % more than we are today, none would die of preventable causes.

You are really good at this man.

Regards
DL

[logroller]

It is due to a figment of your imagination.

If not, produce the prick so that I can have a go at him before the Haig does his genocidal son murdering ass.

Regards
DL
The pyramids of gaza are but specks of dust, yet together they represent something monumental. As with these 'figments', in existence long before I walked this earth, they too represent something monumental. As sure as the day is long, there are those who will seek to tear down such monuments, and yet they stand nonetheless. You'd serve yourself well to consider whether you build monuments or destroy them?

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Garbage is all you have it seems.

Regard
DL

[fj1200]

Absolutely but if any of my idea are easily refuted that would mean I did not think things through as well as I usually do. Remember that if I win a debate I gain nothing. If I lose one, There is the gold. I learn something.

"totalitarian dictators with a socialist bent".

How is their cooperation killing all those young people?

I imagine you had a couple of regimes in mind. Care to share?

I read this...
Paul Krugman’s Proof By Repeated Assertion (http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/29/paul-krugmans-proof-by-repeated-assertion/)... earlier. I thought of you.

Socialists as in the opposite of competition, totalitarian dictators be virtual requirement of the theory, leading to starvation. Let's see North Korea is a good example, most of the African continent falls into this category... As I've shown before the societies that are the most free that allow the most competition are those with the highest living standards.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I read this...
Paul Krugman’s Proof By Repeated Assertion (http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/29/paul-krugmans-proof-by-repeated-assertion/)

... earlier. I thought of you.

Socialists as in the opposite of competition, totalitarian dictators be virtual requirement of the theory, leading to starvation. Let's see North Korea is a good example, most of the African continent falls into this category... As I've shown before the societies that are the most free that allow the most competition are those with the highest living standards.

The opposite or flip side to competition is not socialism, it is cooperation.

Socialism is a political system and not a part of evolution?

Regards
DL

[tailfins]

The opposite or flip side to competition is not socialism, it is cooperation.

Socialism is a political system and not a part of evolution?

Regards
DL

Two chess players are in competition, but they are also cooperating in the endeavor of becoming more experienced chess players. The two are not necessarily opposite.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Two chess players are in competition, but they are also cooperating in the endeavor of becoming more experienced chess players. The two are not necessarily opposite.

I agree that in some situations, we both compete and cooperate at the same time.

Yours is a decent example. A better one might be a rowing race. In each boat, the rowers will cooperate to beat the other boat, while at the same time, the rowers in each of the boats compete with each other to not get cut from the team.

Games are one thing.

Competing for resources kills if on loses at to many competitions for it.

Regards
DL

[fj1200]

The opposite or flip side to competition is not socialism, it is cooperation.

Socialism is a political system and not a part of evolution?

Competition is to capitalism as cooperation is to socialism. One works the other doesn't.

[tailfins]

Competition is to capitalism as cooperation is to socialism. One works the other doesn't.

I think stated this way is more applicable:
Competition is to free enterprise as coercion is to socialism. One works the other doesn't.

Let's avoid the vocabulary the left likes to use.

[fj1200]

^You'll get no argument from me. :)

[DragonStryk72]

The proof is in pure logic. If we were all cooperating even a coupe of % more than we are today, none would die of preventable causes.

You are really good at this man.

Regards
DL

Wow, that's not true. "cooperation" stops a drunk from running into a tree... how? Sure, it's preventable, but cooperation has nothing to do with it. Helping him learn to handle his drinking prior to the incident could work, but that's helping, not cooperating.

You keep just throwing out these broad strokes, and hoping no one notices how much bullcrap is contained within it.

You still haven't proven competition as evil, and by that token, neither is cooperation necessarily good. Perfectly example: The members of Hamas are cooperating with one another to ethnically cleanse the Jews from the Middle East.

We can choose to help, we can choose not to, but again, Evil is an act of volition.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Wow, that's not true. "cooperation" stops a drunk from running into a tree... how? Sure, it's preventable, but cooperation has nothing to do with it. Helping him learn to handle his drinking prior to the incident could work, but that's helping, not cooperating.

You keep just throwing out these broad strokes, and hoping no one notices how much bullcrap is contained within it.

You still haven't proven competition as evil, and by that token, neither is cooperation necessarily good. Perfectly example: The members of Hamas are cooperating with one another to ethnically cleanse the Jews from the Middle East.

We can choose to help, we can choose not to, but again, Evil is an act of volition.

Like survival. And to survive we must do evil to the losers of our competition.

I have shown how competing for resources causes victims who would see their loss as evil.

If you can refute that go ahead.

------------------

"but that's helping, not cooperating.

You keep just throwing out these broad strokes, and hoping no one notices how much bullcrap is contained within it."

This idiotic statement sows how little you can think. It I full of the bullcrap you mention.

If helping is not cooperating an positive, the show hw helping can be hurtful.

Regards
DL

[jimnyc]

This idiotic statement sows how little you can think. It I full of the bullcrap you mention.

I am baffled as to what the red portion means. But I found it funny that it followed the bold sentence, also a bit ironic. :)

[aboutime]

I am baffled as to what the red portion means. But I found it funny that it followed the bold sentence, also a bit ironic. :)


jim. You have to remember how people who demonstrate such terrible hatred like him. Also have challenges with their educational experience. The spelling errors...and the RED words, are probably reminders to Gnostic of how his only source of education...(that Final, 2nd grade graduation certificate) he uses as the basis for his knowledge. Should be admired, despite the obvious IGNORANCE.

[DragonStryk72]

Like survival. And to survive we must do evil to the losers of our competition.

I have shown how competing for resources causes victims who would see their loss as evil.

If you can refute that go ahead.

No, you haven't. You've shown some bad stuff happens sometimes. That's about it, really. As I've repeatedly asserted, and you duck and dodge away from, evil is an act of volition, not competition in and of itself. You've proven nothing, but that you continue to paint in broad strokes, and can't really debate.

------------------

"but that's helping, not cooperating.

You keep just throwing out these broad strokes, and hoping no one notices how much bullcrap is contained within it."

This idiotic statement sows how little you can think. It I full of the bullcrap you mention.

If helping is not cooperating an positive, the show hw helping can be hurtful.

Regards
DL

Help has nothing to do with cooperation. I can help a person without their cooperation (Done the world over by medic setting broken bones, guys taking the keys away from drunks who are about to try and drive, etc.). It's pretty simple. I shouldn't have to keep pointing how very basic facets of life work.

Why am I on the hook to prove helping can be hurtful? You're the one who started this whole run that competition is evil. You still haven't even proven that much of it. I never attested that helping is bad. I attested that helping and cooperation are not one in the same, because they're not. Also, it's kind of easy to show ways in which helping can be hurtful: When someone sets your broken leg wrong (They were trying to be helpful, but apparently they need a refresher on that part of their first aid training.). Helping someone with directions, but getting them lost because you unintentionally got the directions wrong. There are thousands of examples of this. Again, this is a very basic facet of life that I shouldn't have to explain to you.

[DragonStryk72]

I am baffled as to what the red portion means. But I found it funny that it followed the bold sentence, also a bit ironic. :)

Always love it when people try to call me an idiot, but can't get their spelling together to do so.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Help has nothing to do with cooperation.

So when you are helping them, you are somehow competing with them. is that what you are saying?



I can help a person without their cooperation (Done the world over by medic setting broken bones, guys taking the keys away from drunks who are about to try and drive, etc.). It's pretty simple. I shouldn't have to keep pointing how very basic facets of life work.


No argument.


Why am I on the hook to prove helping can be hurtful?

Because you made the statement an I can't see it and would like to.



You're the one who started this whole run that competition is evil.

Yes, which is not what you said.


You still haven't even proven that much of it. I never attested that helping is bad. I attested that helping and cooperation are not one in the same, because they're not. Also, it's kind of easy to show ways in which helping can be hurtful: When someone sets your broken leg wrong (They were trying to be helpful, but apparently they need a refresher on that part of their first aid training.). Helping someone with directions, but getting them lost because you unintentionally got the directions wrong. There are thousands of examples of this. Again, this is a very basic facet of life that I shouldn't have to explain to you.



I dealt with some of this above.

I await your reply.

Regards
DL

[DragonStryk72]

So when you are helping them, you are somehow competing with them. is that what you are saying?

If only the two states of competing and cooperating existed, that might be an argument. We live on Earth, however, and so there are more than those two states.

No argument.

Then why did you just argue it.

Because you made the statement an I can't see it and would like to.

I never attested that helping is bad. I attested that helping and cooperation are not one in the same, because they're not.

I dealt with some of this above.

I await your reply.

Regards
DL

And still haven't proven competition as evil. Either concede the point, or prove it.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

And still haven't proven competition as evil. Either concede the point, or prove it.

I did not say competition was evil. Perhaps that's your confusion. I said it produces losers who would see it as evil coming their way.

Then O.P. gave a scenario that has yet to be refuted. I will wait.

Regards
DL

[DragonStryk72]

I did not say competition was evil. Perhaps that's your confusion. I said it produces losers who would see it as evil coming their way.

Then O.P. gave a scenario that has yet to be refuted. I will wait.

Regards
DL

Competition, again, does not necessarily create victims. Cooperation is not always good. I already pointed these things out, here, and in other threads, so yes, it has been shot down. What else do you have?

[aboutime]

Competition, again, does not necessarily create victims. Cooperation is not always good. I already pointed these things out, here, and in other threads, so yes, it has been shot down. What else do you have?


Dragon. Ya know, it sounds like this guy, or whatever he/she is...seems to also be against any form of sport where competition is the decisive aspect those in competition wish to achieve.

Also sounds as if Gnostic would happily try to convince children playing any games...that no score, or what human beings know to be success, or failure (rejected by the pc bunch as win, or lose).

For Gnostic to be happy, and to feel only Gnostic can be right. He/She needs to insist that all forms of competition creates VICTIMS. Almost sounds like Gnostic also supports HAMAS, and HEZBOLLAH when they dance in the streets after attacking...(competing) with Isreal.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Competition, again, does not necessarily create victims. Cooperation is not always good. I already pointed these things out, here, and in other threads, so yes, it has been shot down. What else do you have?

Tell us again how a competition does not have a loser please. I must have missed it.

Please show a short and simple scenario. Do you mean a tie in however the scoring is done?

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Dragon. Ya know, it sounds like this guy, or whatever he/she is...seems to also be against any form of sport where competition is the decisive aspect those in competition wish to achieve.

Also sounds as if Gnostic would happily try to convince children playing any games...that no score, or what human beings know to be success, or failure (rejected by the pc bunch as win, or lose).

For Gnostic to be happy, and to feel only Gnostic can be right. He/She needs to insist that all forms of competition creates VICTIMS. Almost sounds like Gnostic also supports HAMAS, and HEZBOLLAH when they dance in the streets after attacking...(competing) with Isreal.

Idiot.

Show a competition that has no loser instead of mouthing idiocies.

Regards
DL

[aboutime]

Idiot.

Show a competition that has no loser instead of mouthing idiocies.

Regards
DL


No need Gnostic. Most of us already know. YOU are the One, and Only ​LOSER.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

No need Gnostic. Most of us already know. YOU are the One, and Only ​LOSER.

As expected. You cannot.

Regards
DL

[DragonStryk72]

Tell us again how a competition does not have a loser please. I must have missed it.

Please show a short and simple scenario. Do you mean a tie in however the scoring is done?

Regards
DL

Ah-ah, you said victim, not loser before. You don't get to switch terms. Some of the best times I've had, I've had while losing at competition.

You are the one that is trying to victimize loss, not me. But really, I think the word games are all you have left, that or spamming your original argument. The impetus is on you, not me, to prove that competition, in and of itself, creates victims, and thus, creates evil.

You have not, in any previous comment, proven it thus far. I meanwhile, have shown that competition is strictly neutral in its own right, as is cooperation.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Interesting.

Regards
DL