Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I am referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?



4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.

"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)


The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I am referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.

"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)


"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.


2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?


3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?



4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?


5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?


6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?


7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?

Hell is a bad place full of liberals that are so full of themselves.
So full it will explode and then the SWHTF.... with liberal parts and stupidity blown all over the place. lol

Seriously, Hell is just as real as is Heaven.
The bible warns of one(Hell) and promises of the other (Heaven).


The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence teaching that Hell is indeed a literal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9).

Here are many Scriptures to consider...

Numbers 26:10…

“And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.”

Korah and the men who rebelled with him against Moses were swallowed into Hell beneath.


Psalm 9:17…

“The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”

Carefully notice that "hell" here cannot merely mean "the grave" as some foolishly teach. For if "hell" only means the grave, then where do the righteous go? The Bible plainly teaches that the righteous and the wicked do NOT go to the same place. The wicked are turned into Hell; but the righteous unto life eternal.


Psalm 139:8…

“If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.”

The contrast here is between Heaven and Hell; not between Heaven and the grave. Also notice the interesting phrase... "If I make my bed in hell." Everyone who goes to Hell chooses to go there by rejecting Jesus as their Christ. It is sinful men who make their own bed in Hell. No sinner must go to Hell. The gift of eternal life is freely offered to all mankind through faith in Christ Jesus (John 14:6; Acts 10:43; Revelation 22:17).


Isaiah 5:14…

“Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

It wouldn't make any sense if "hell" merely meant the grave. What point would there be in condemning the wicked to hell if that's the same place where the righteous go? Clearly, Hell is a place only for the wicked who die in their sins. The righteous go to heaven to be with the Lord (2nd Corinthians 5:8).


Ezekiel 31:16…

“I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit…”

Clearly, this Scripture defines "hell" as being more than the grave. The Bible speaks about "descending into the pit." The Bible also speaks of being "cast into Hell," which clearly implies judgment from a holy God. If "hell" merely meant grave as Mormons, Jehovah's Witness and other false prophets teach, then God would have said that the righteous shall be cast into hell too; but the Bible NEVER says that anywhere!!! Only the wicked shall be cast into Hell, a bottomless pit, where Satan is called "the angel of the bottomless pit" (Revelation 9:11).


Matthew 5:28,29…

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

The Bible plainly teaches that all sinners are condemned to Hell. If "hell" simply means grave, then what harm or worry is there in fornicating, getting drunk, raping, murdering, partying with illegal drugs and committing all sorts of other sins? There would be none. If there is NO place of punishment in eternity, then there is NO justice for all the victims of crimes committed in this earthly life. So then what advantage is there to being righteous? If one believes that the Bible is God's Word, then you absolutely must believe that Hell is a literal place of torment and anguish, that burns with searing flames of fire and brimstone, where sinners are punished for their sins against a holy God.

[Alter2Ego]

Hell is a bad place full of liberals that are so full of themselves.
So full it will explode and then the SWHTF.... with liberal parts and stupidity blown all over the place. lol

Seriously, Hell is just as real as is Heaven.
The bible warns of one(Hell) and promises of the other (Heaven).


The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence teaching that Hell is indeed a literal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9).

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

No, it does not. None of your above verses are talking literal hellfire torment. Without context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters), one can isolate a few words and assign any preconceived meaning to them. That is exactly what you did with the examples above.

I will quote the context to each of your above verses as time permits. At Question 1 in my OP, I asked for only four (4) verses at a time from each person because it takes time for me to go through the verses and present the context.


When discussing religious doctrines, I try to avoid telling people my personal opinion. Instead, I let them get correction from the Bible itself by showing them the context.



I will start presenting context in the very next post.

[darin]

Religious people almost NEED eternal punishment to exist to validate their sacrifices. WRT Christianity specifically, because I am an expert in that faith (:D), I believe God 'losing' to the Devil is pretty sad. By Losing I mean - based on teaching received in the church more folks' souls will spend eternity in Hell than in Heaven. I wonder why God would give up the souls of those he's loved since the creation of time.

[Alter2Ego]

Seriously, Hell is just as real as is Heaven.
The bible warns of one(Hell) and promises of the other (Heaven).


The Bible contains an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence teaching that Hell is indeed a literal place of torment, where those who die in their sins without Jesus Christ are punished in flaming fire and vengeance by God (2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9).

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

Notice that you did not bother to quote 2Thessalonians 1:8-9. Instead, you simply told the forum what you believe the verses are saying. The context to those verses does not agree with you conclusion that the "flaming fire" is literal. Notice the quotation of the same verses below. Forus on the words that are in bold print.


"{8} in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don't know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. {9} They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power."
(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 -- New Living Translation)

Notice that verse 8 speaks of "flaming fire" and verse 9 explains what is meant by that. Verse 9 explains that the "flaming fire" is with reference to annihilation aka "eternal destruction".


I will address another of your "hellfire" verses at another time.

[Alter2Ego]

Religious people almost NEED eternal punishment to exist to validate their sacrifices. WRT Christianity specifically, because I am an expert in that faith (:D), I believe God 'losing' to the Devil is pretty sad. By Losing I mean - based on teaching received in the church more folks' souls will spend eternity in Hell than in Heaven. I wonder why God would give up the souls of those he's loved since the creation of time.

ALTER2EGO -to- DMP:

When you say "more folks souls," what is your understanding of the "soul" when that word is used in the scriptures? To help you understand what I am asking, below is question 7 from my opening post, which I will now direct to you.


QUESTION to DMP: Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I think the key factor in deciding for us if hell exists or not would have to come from asking whether a good and moral God would create what to me seems like an immoral construct.

I cannot see a moral and just God using or creating such a place.

Few believers in hell like to openly discuss morals but if any here would like to look at this question from that angle, I am here for that.

You may make the opening argument if you like and take that advantage or ask for mine.

Regards
DL

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1.Saint Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:9 that Christ our Lord descended
into Hell after He offered His life on the cross. “Now that He
ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the
lower parts of the earth?” Note here that Hell is described as having
“parts” that is the four parts of Hell.


2.Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ,
having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He
should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints
from hell.


3.Saint Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 3:19 that “Christ coming in spirit
preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time
been incredulous.” On this verse, Saint Athanasius says that “Christ’s
body was laid in the sepulchre when He went to preach to those spirits
who were in bondage, as Peter said.” (Ep. ad Epict.)


4.The prophet Hosea foretold the descent of Christ into Hell in
Hosea 13:14 by placing these words into the mouth of the Messiah:
“O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite.”


5.Zechariah foretells the redemption of those in the Limbo of the
Fathers in Zech 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast
sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.” What could this mean except
that the Messiah would free people from the underworld?


6.Colossians 2:15: “Despoiling the principalities and powers, He
hath exposed them confidently.” This refers to Christ’s victory over
the condemned angels who are the demons of Hell.


7.Psalm 23:7: “Lift up your gates, O ye princes,” which the medieval
Gloss interprets: “that is–Ye princes of hell, take away your power,
whereby hitherto you held men fast in hell”.


8.In Ecclesiasticus 24:45, Siracides prophecied: “I will penetrate
to all the lower parts of the earth


Exactly what "imaginary" place is referenced in these verses.
You can do them one at a time if you like.
This should be good.
So we are to believe that eight times an imaginary place was
mentioned!??--Tyr

[Drummond]

I think the key factor in deciding for us if hell exists or not would have to come from asking whether a good and moral God would create what to me seems like an immoral construct.

I cannot see a moral and just God using or creating such a place.

Few believers in hell like to openly discuss morals but if any here would like to look at this question from that angle, I am here for that.

You may make the opening argument if you like and take that advantage or ask for mine.

Regards
DL

Yours is a highly judgmental post ... one in which you seem to be placing yourself in a position of judging what God should or should not judge is 'just'. Do you consider yourself as an equal to God, or potentially deserving of being His judge ?

What concept of God I have is one of an Almighty Being whose mind I am not fit either to judge or to ever hope of quantifying. All human beings are way too limited for that.

One might as well try to imagine an amoeba composing the complete works of Shakespeare, or of mastering quantum physics.

[Alter2Ego]

1.Saint Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:9 that Christ our Lord descended into Hell after He offered His life on the cross. “Now that He ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” Note here that Hell is described as having “parts” that is the four parts of Hell.

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

It so happens that the portion bolded in blue does not fall within the Biblical quotation. In other words, that is just you expressing your personal philosophy. Ephesians 4:9 speaks of "the lower parts of the earth," which simply refers to people being buried in the ground after they die. Six feet under, the last time I heard.




2.Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints from hell.

As it again happens, the portion bolded in blue is you again telling people what you believe and is mentioned nowhere in the Bible. Acts 2:24 confirms what I said in my OP, that Christ was in hell aka the grave. He "loosed the sorrows of hell" in the sense that his sacrificial death has opened the opportunity for many people to be resurrected from the grave.

[Alter2Ego]

3.Saint Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 3:19 that “Christ coming in spirit preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time been incredulous.” On this verse, Saint Athanasius says that “Christ’s body was laid in the sepulchre when He went to preach to those spirits who were in bondage, as Peter said.” (Ep. ad Epict.)

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

What Athanasius speculated (bolded in blue) and what Scripture says (bolded in red) are two entirely different things. 1 Peter 3:19 is talking about what Jesus Christ did after he was resurrected from the dead.


The routine of people who hold onto unscriptural beliefs is to ignore context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). And that is exactly what you did in this instance. Part of the context to 1 Peter 3:19 is found in the preceding verse, which you ignored. Notice below.

"{18} Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. {19} In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison," (1 Peter 3:18-19)


Notice that verse 18 clearly says it was after Jesus was "made alive in the spirit" aka after his resurrection that Jesus went his way and preached to the spirits in prison. And the spirits in prison is with reference to the demons aka literal spirit beings, not dead humans as you seem to think.


Athanasius claims Jesus was preaching while he was still dead. The Bible says Jesus Christ continued preaching after he was resurrected from the dead, meaning Jesus was alive. You can go with Athanasius. I will go with what the Bible says.

[darin]

Not every answer to every question is bible-based. I am not going to sift through scripture and pull out stuff to try and convince anyone of anything - even if 'souls' "REALLY" exist. It's a silly exercise. Those who believe the bible believe in eternal souls (or consciousness, or whatever noun you wish). :)

[red state]

Yours is a highly judgmental post ... one in which you seem to be placing yourself in a position of judging what God should or should not judge is 'just'. Do you consider yourself as an equal to God, or potentially deserving of being His judge ?

What concept of God I have is one of an Almighty Being whose mind I am not fit either to judge or to ever hope of quantifying. All human beings are way too limited for that.

One might as well try to imagine an amoeba composing the complete works of Shakespeare, or of mastering quantum physics.


Very right you are, Drummond, by the same token, this member could ask if or how GOD could be a moral god when awful things happen every day. The answer is a turning FROM God that allowed awful things into this world and this is EXACTLY why Hell exists. It was created for the Angels that turned from God and made his perfect world a place of sin. If you turn away from God.....you are left with the alternative for God can not share in the company of those who have not been cleansed.

In Hell, the rich man lifted up his eyes but Lazarus was in comfort. These were two REAL people and more than the normal parable that Christ usually told. If there is no Hell, there can be no Heaven.....or Father of heaven. For many, there are no absolutes and morality is simply whatever floats your boat or 'makes you feel good'. I could care less who believes or disagrees that Hell, Heaven or God exists. We will all find out in the end but by that time, it'll be too late. I misspoke. I do care and would to God that all would be welcomed into Glory but that is simply not going to happen because the gates are wide.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Yours is a highly judgmental post ...

Thank you. I try hard to follow God's Word. ---1 Thesalonian 5;21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.


one in which you seem to be placing yourself in a position of judging what God should or should not judge is 'just'. Do you consider yourself as an equal to God, or potentially deserving of being His judge ?


Absolutely.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.



What concept of God I have is one of an Almighty Being whose mind I am not fit either to judge or to ever hope of quantifying. All human beings are way too limited for that.

One might as well try to imagine an amoeba composing the complete works of Shakespeare, or of mastering quantum physics.

A shame that you see yourself as to stupid to do what we can all do as descendants of Adam and Eve who as God said, became as Gods in knowing good and evil.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

It was created for the Angels that turned from God and made his perfect world a place of sin.


Care to speculate then on why God cast Satan ad her friends to Eden with the power to deceive Eve, dominion over man?

If hell was created for Angels, what do humans need with a savior? None have to worry about hell if it was created only for Angels.

Regards
DL

[red state]

"If you turn away from God.....
you are left with the alternative for God can not share in the company of those who have not been cleansed."

You kinda skipped the above part of my earlier post.......me thinks there's a reason to why one would do such things (or use a snake as an avatar). As you said......REGARDS..... for I haven't the time to argue with snakes. And for the record, Angels are neither male nor female (as best that I can read) but they (as well as God) are referred to in a more masculine manner. But that is for another argument on another day. You keep crawling and one day you'll be walking and possibly even run fast enough to keep up with the big boys here.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

"If you turn away from God.....
you are left with the alternative for God can not share in the company of those who have not been cleansed."

You kinda skipped the above part of my earlier post.......me thinks there's a reason to why one would do such things (or use a snake as an avatar). As you said......REGARDS..... for I haven't the time to argue with snakes. And for the record, Angels are neither male nor female (as best that I can read) but they (as well as God) are referred to in a more masculine manner. But that is for another argument on another day. You keep crawling and one day you'll be walking and possibly even run fast enough to keep up with the big boys here.

A rather shallow deflection to my questions but then again, what else can you offer.

Regard
DL

[aboutime]

A rather shallow deflection to my questions but then again, what else can you offer.

Regard
DL


Only as shallow as your ease of never getting wet Gnostic. Your hypocrisy sounds like something Nancy Pelosi would sponsor.

[red state]

Aboutime, God, unlike liberals, is a being of logic and although supreme, all knowing and one that demands respect, He is also one who appreciates FREEDOM. This includes freedom to choose (again....unlike most liberals). It is amazing how intelligent leftist try to come off to others, the more they open their big mouth, the more they display their ignorance. I need not speculate after intense study of the Bible (the entire Bible) so I know full well why God allowed Satan to do what he did and what he continues to be allowed to do. I also know that God allows things to strengthen us and also to prove us. Still, some things (many things) are due to man's decisions.....not as a direct action from a vengeful God. Of course, this is all elementary to most intelligent folks who ask legitimate questions without alternate motives. I provide wisdom only to those who seek wisdom and sarcasm and disrespect to those who seek only to do out of strife and mockery of others. Again, old friend, you have this snake's number and I appreciate your putting in your two cents on what we all know to be in dealing with snakes.

[aboutime]

Aboutime, God, unlike liberals, is a being of logic and although supreme, all knowing and one that demands respect, He is also one who appreciates FREEDOM. This includes freedom to choose (again....unlike most liberals). It is amazing how intelligent leftist try to come off to others, the more they open their big mouth, the more they display their ignorance. I need not speculate after intense study of the Bible (the entire Bible) so I know full well why God allowed Satan to do what he did and what he continues to be allowed to do. I also know that God allows things to strengthen us and also to prove us. Still, some things (many things) are due to man's decisions.....not as a direct action from a vengeful God. Of course, this is all elementary to most intelligent folks who ask legitimate questions without alternate motives. I provide wisdom only to those who seek wisdom and sarcasm and disrespect to those who seek only to do out of strife and mockery of others. Again, old friend, you have this snake's number and I appreciate your putting in your two cents on what we all know to be in dealing with snakes.


red state. Agreed. Now watch how those who despise learning, or being confronted with such truth...try to insist that God, or Jesus were Liberals like them. Giving them the ALMIGHTY POWER, and PERMISSION to declare anyone who doesn't accept their lies and fabrications as Racists, and Dishonorable.

[stevecanuck]

The Qur'an certainly describes a literal fire, which is prepared for all us infidel pig-dogs.

[red state]

red state. Agreed. Now watch how those who despise learning, or being confronted with such truth...try to insist that God, or Jesus were Liberals like them. Giving them the ALMIGHTY POWER, and PERMISSION to declare anyone who doesn't accept their lies and fabrications as Racists, and Dishonorable.


Yeah, I love how they always talk about CHRIST giving to the poor....but the catch phrase is GIVE (not have it taken from you). That is not love, mercy or charity, that is down right robbery (something liberals are good at when it comes to taking away one's success or reducing the meaning of words or simply make a lie some degree of truth). After all, we all know by now that there is not absolute truth. RIGHT? Wrong! At least snake boy hasn't reached that "block" stage for me yet.... it seems to have simply slithered away. Another aspect of the slimy leftist. Could this be that Abe sucka? It knew it all as well. :laugh:

[red state]

Bottom line: TYR did an excellent job in providing Biblical/doctrinal evidence of everlasting life AWAY from the pure light. love and perfection we know as GOD. Away from Him is total darkness, hatred and extreme chaos. It is our choice and choosing not to choose or believe is still a chose. The opposition provided nothing but derailing rhetoric that only mocked or tried to paint TYR as some religious nut with nothing to stand on as proof. Not a very good rebuttal on their part so I try my best to treat them with the same amount of disrespect. Other topics from today shows that I respect those who offer the same respect.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

What Athanasius speculated (bolded in blue) and what Scripture says (bolded in red) are two entirely different things. 1 Peter 3:19 is talking about what Jesus Christ did after he was resurrected from the dead.


The routine of people who hold onto unscriptural beliefs is to ignore context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters). And that is exactly what you did in this instance. Part of the context to 1 Peter 3:19 is found in the preceding verse, which you ignored. Notice below.

"{18} Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. {19} In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison," (1 Peter 3:18-19)


Notice that verse 18 clearly says it was after Jesus was "made alive in the spirit" aka after his resurrection that Jesus went his way and preached to the spirits in prison. And the spirits in prison is with reference to the demons aka literal spirit beings, not dead humans as you seem to think.


Athanasius claims Jesus was preaching while he was still dead. The Bible says Jesus Christ continued preaching after he was resurrected from the dead, meaning Jesus was alive. You can go with Athanasius. I will go with what the Bible says.


1.Saint Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:9 that Christ our Lord descended
into Hell after He offered His life on the cross. “Now that He
ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the
lower parts of the earth?” Note here that Hell is described as having
“parts” that is the four parts of Hell.


2.Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ,
having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He
should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints
from hell.


3.Saint Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 3:19 that “Christ coming in spirit
preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time
been incredulous.” On this verse, Saint Athanasius says that “Christ’s
body was laid in the sepulchre when He went to preach to those spirits
who were in bondage, as Peter said.” (Ep. ad Epict.)


4.The prophet Hosea foretold the descent of Christ into Hell in
Hosea 13:14 by placing these words into the mouth of the Messiah:
“O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite.”


5.Zechariah foretells the redemption of those in the Limbo of the
Fathers in Zech 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast
sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.” What could this mean except
that the Messiah would free people from the underworld?


6.Colossians 2:15: “Despoiling the principalities and powers, He
hath exposed them confidently.” This refers to Christ’s victory over
the condemned angels who are the demons of Hell.


7.Psalm 23:7: “Lift up your gates, O ye princes,” which the medieval
Gloss interprets: “that is–Ye princes of hell, take away your power,
whereby hitherto you held men fast in hell”.


8.In Ecclesiasticus 24:45, Siracides prophecied: “I will penetrate
to all the lower parts of the earth


Exactly what "imaginary" place is referenced in these verses.
You can do them one at a time if you like.
This should be good.
So we are to believe that eight times an imaginary place was
mentioned!??--Tyr

So we are to believe that eight times an imaginary place was
mentioned!??
By the way, the word for the "grave" is different in Greek than the word for Hell and in Hebrew language as well . Perhaps you had better check things closer.. --Tyr

[Alter2Ego]

1.Saint Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4:9 that Christ our Lord descended
into Hell after He offered His life on the cross. “Now that He ascended, what is it, but because He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?” Note here that Hell is described as having “parts” that is the four parts of Hell.


2.Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ, having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints
from hell.

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

Neither Ephesians 4:9 nor Acts 2:24 support your claim that hellfire torment is literal. I responded to those verses at Post 10 and gave you a credible explanation for why the verses do not support your fallacious claim. I suggest you go back and read Post 10, as I do not intend to address those verses again. Below is the weblink to Post 10.
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?45985-Is-LITERAL-Hellfire-Torment-A-Bible-Teaching&p=694734#post694734



2.Saint Peter said in Acts 2:24 that “God hath raised up Christ,
having loosed the sorrows of hell, as it was impossible that He
should be holden by it.” Christ loosed the Old Testament saints
from hell.

The book of Acts was written by Luke, not by Peter. Peter wrote two books, and both books were name after him, as follows: the book of 1 Peter, and the book of 2 Peter.

[Alter2Ego]

3.Saint Peter also wrote in 1 Peter 3:19 that “Christ coming in spirit preached to those spirits that were in prison, which had some time been incredulous.” On this verse, Saint Athanasius says that “Christ’s body was laid in the sepulchre when He went to preach to those spirits who were in bondage, as Peter said.” (Ep. ad Epict.)

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

Athanasius was giving his personal philosophy, which is debunked by scripture. Athanasius claimed Christ was preaching to people--get this--during the three days that the Bible clearly says Jesus was dead. Jesus was incapable of preaching to anybody during his death, because according to scripture, death is the opposite of life. I informed you of that at Post 11 by quoting part of the context to 1 Peter 3:19. Specifically, I quoted 1 Peter 3:18 which says Jesus Christ did not begin preaching to the spirits until AFTER he was resurrected from the dead.

"{18} Why, even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. {19} In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison,"(1 Peter 3:18-19)


There it is in plain English at verse 18. You chose to focus only on verse 19, so that you can convince yourself that verse 19 is saying what Athanasius fallaciously claimed.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

The Qur'an certainly describes a literal fire, which is prepared for all us infidel pig-dogs.



Too damned cold in heaven in any case.Did you ever look at God's face in art. That is not a happy dude.

Regard
DL

[Alter2Ego]

4.The prophet Hosea foretold the descent of Christ into Hell in
Hosea 13:14 by placing these words into the mouth of the Messiah: “O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite.”


5.Zechariah foretells the redemption of those in the Limbo of the Fathers in Zech 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.” What could this mean except that the Messiah would free people from the underworld?


6.Colossians 2:15: “Despoiling the principalities and powers, He hath exposed them confidently.” This refers to Christ’s victory over the condemned angels who are the demons of Hell.


7.Psalm 23:7: “Lift up your gates, O ye princes,” which the medieval Gloss interprets: “that is–Ye princes of hell, take away your power, whereby hitherto you held men fast in hell”.


8.In Ecclesiasticus 24:45, Siracides prophecied: “I will penetrate to all the lower parts of the earth


Exactly what "imaginary" place is referenced in these verses. You can do them one at a time if you like.
This should be good. So we are to believe that eight times an imaginary place was
mentioned!??--Tyr

So we are to believe that eight times an imaginary place was
mentioned!??
By the way, the word for the "grave" is different in Greek than the word for Hell and in Hebrew language as well . Perhaps you had better check things closer.. --Tyr

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

You presented fiction eight times, is what you mean. None of the eight cherry-picked verses you presented are talking literal hellfire torment. I already debunked the first three, so I took them off the above list, leaving you with 5 out of the original 8. I will now debunk two more of your "hellfire torment" verses, as noted below.



7.Psalm 23:7: “Lift up your gates, O ye princes,” which the medieval Gloss interprets: “that is–Ye princes of hell, take away your power, whereby hitherto you held men fast in hell”.

There is no such verse in existence in Psalms chapter 23. Psalms chapter 23 does not go any further than verse 6.



8.In Ecclesiasticus 24:45, Siracides prophecied: “I will penetrate to all the lower parts of the earth

There is no such chapter in existence in the book of Ecclesiastes. The book of Ecclesiastes stops at chapter 12.



I will deal with your remaining three verses (Hosea 13:14, Zechariah 9:11, and Colossians 2:15) at another time.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Do you believers hell to be a good place?

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Has God been overcome by evil and is trying to overcome evil with an evil hell?

Has God forgotten his own WORDs?

Regards
DL

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/bible-verses-about-hell-21-eye-opening-scriptures/

Is Hell a real place? If Hell is real, how can a loving God send people there? Is there escape from Hell even for people who have committed unconscionable crimes? These are all questions that can be answered in the Bible. Hell is not only described as a literal place, but the concept of Hell – eternal separation from God — is also explained as the wages of sin (Romans 6:23). The Old Testament alludes to Hell but it is really Jesus’ teaching in the New Testament that gives a clearer picture of its reality. Actually, when Jesus taught on earth He taught more about Hell than Heaven. Hell is a place that many, even some Christians, refuse to believe, however because the Bible teaches about Hell we must believe it to be real and true. Here are 21 eye opening Bible verses about Hell.

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/bible-verses-about-hell-21-eye-opening-scriptures/#ixzz377jITJLs

The word Hell is translated from several different words [1]

Hebrew: sheol

Translated “pit” (3 times)

Numbers 16:33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly




Job 17:16 Will it go down to the bars of Sheol? Shall we descend together into the dust?”

Translated “grave” (31 times)

Genesis 37:34-35 Then Jacob tore his garments and put sackcloth on his loins and mourned for his son many days. All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted and said, “No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.


1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Translated “Hell” (31 times)

2 Samuel 22:5-6 “For the waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction assailed me;6 the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.


Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.


Hebrew: Valley of Hinnom

A picture of Hell; misery and punishment

2 Chronicles 28:1-3 Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as his father David had done, but he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel. He even made metal images for the Baals, and he made offerings in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom and burned his sons as an offering, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.


Jeremiah 7:31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Greek: hades (translated from the Hebrew sheol)

Translated “Hell” ten times and “grave” one time

1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Greek: tartaros

Translated “hell” meaning eternal torment”


2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Greek: gehenna (from the Hebrew Valley of Hinnom)

Translated “hell” meaning place of everlasting torment

Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hell is the place of torment for the lost (unsaved). Because everyone has sinned no one deserves to live with the Holy and righteous Heavenly Father (Romans 3:10; 3:23). But God is a loving Father and He offers salvation from death to all, and for those that reject the offer, God’s justice will be executed and the wage of sin will be paid in Hell.

Torment will be physical


Luke 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’


Jude 12-13 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.


Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”


Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.


Revelation 20:10 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


Torment will be mental


Luke 16:25 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’

Torment will be spiritual


2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Torment will be just – at different degrees


God’s judgment will be less for some


Matthew 11:20-24 Then he began to denounce the cities where most of his mighty works had been done, because they did not repent. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

God will have greater judgment for some

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

God’s judgment will be double for others

Revelation 18:5-6 for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.6 Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.

Escape from Hell is offered to everyone

To learn more about how you can escape Hell and instead spend eternity in Heaven with God when your time on Earth is done, read the following articles:


Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/bible-verses-about-hell-21-eye-opening-scriptures/#ixzz377jssJCv


Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/bible-verses-about-hell-21-eye-opening-scriptures/#ixzz377jQhEVg

[Alter2Ego]

4.The prophet Hosea foretold the descent of Christ into Hell in Hosea 13:14 by placing these words into the mouth of the Messiah: “O death, I will be thy death; O hell, I will be thy bite.”

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

It just so happens that "hell" is nothing more than mankind's common grave.


5.Zechariah foretells the redemption of those in the Limbo of the Fathers in Zech 9:11: “Thou also by the blood of Thy Testament hast sent forth Thy prisoners out of the pit.” What could this mean except that the Messiah would free people from the underworld?

There is no such thing as "Limbo" in the Bible. That is the reason why your quotation from Zechariah 9:11 says nothing about "Limbo." So your claim that the Messiah "would free people from the underworld" is not based on scripture.

[Alter2Ego]

6.Colossians 2:15: “Despoiling the principalities and powers, He hath exposed them confidently.” This refers to Christ’s victory over the condemned angels who are the demons of Hell.

ALTER2EGO -to- TYR-ZIU SAXNOT:

Where are you seeing that? Colossians 2:15 makes no mention of demons or hellfire torment. the expression "principalities and powers" is with reference to human governments and governmental authorities. Below is the same verse of scripture from another Bible translation.

"He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him." (Colossians 2:15 -- English Standard Version)



All 8 of the out-of-context "hellfire torment" verses that you presented at Post 8 have now been debunked.

As for that wall of text that you presented at Post 30, with more out-of-context verses that say nothing of literal hellfire torment, if you think I am going to waste my time going through all of those verses that you clearly copy-pasted from somebody elses website, dream on.


There is a reason why I ask for no more than four verses at a time in my OP. The reason is because I look up each verse in my own copy of the Bible, and then I look at the context of each verse. (Context refers to surrounding words, verses, and chapters). I allowed you to give me double the requested amount at post 8 instead of the 4 at a time. When you realized that the context to your last 8 "hellfire torment" verses was not panning out, you figured it would be a bright idea to do what is known as "elephant hurling"--post a wall of text to overwhelm me.


It is your job to explain why each of those verses at Post 30 are talking literal hellfire torment. Do that for the first four from the list, and I will then respond by directing you to the context. If you fail to do that, then do not hold your breath waiting for me to waste my time on your verses that do not mean what you claim they mean.



The ball is now in your court.

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Read more: http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/bible-verses-about-hell-21-eye-opening-scriptures/#ixzz377jQhEVg


Arguing the existence of hell is a waste of time as neither of us have any proof of it.

We can decide if such a place might exist if we agree on morals.

If you care to engage at that level, I am here for you.

Here is a sample that you would have to deal with.


Judgment and punishment go hand in hand.



Our human laws have a form of punishment where the penalty is graduated to fit the crime. An eye for an eye type of justice.



God‘s punishment seems to surpass this standard with hell. Hell used here is the eternal fire and torture type of hell and I am not particularly interested in the myriad of other definitions and theories that some use to supplant this traditional view.



To ascertain if hell would be a moral construct or not, all you need do is answer these

simple question for yourself.



1. Is it good justice for a soul to be able to sin for only 120 years and then have to suffer torture for 12000000000000000000000000 + years?



2. Is it good justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

This might actually include God if you see Noah’s flood as God using genocide and not justice against man. Pardon the digression.



Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.



3. Is it good justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?



4. If you answered yes to these questions, then would killing the soul not be a better form of justice than to torture it for no possible good result or purpose?



Is hell a moral construct or not?



Please explain your reasons and know that ---just because you think God created it ---does not explain your moral judgment. It is your view I seek and not God’s as no one can speak for God.



Regards

DL

[aboutime]

I have decided that the troubled, miserable member calling him/herself Gnostic can, and should only be taken, or considered viable, or serious under one condition.

And, that condition is. Gnostic should, honestly disclose, share, and identify him/herself with the real, honest name, and address.

If Gnostic fails to do so. Or decides to ignore the suggestion...pretending to require anonymity per the rules of this forum.


All further responses, or acknowledgements of the member Gnostic should CEASE. PERIOD.

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Part and parcel with the false teaching of hellfire is another false teaching: the immortal soul dogma. According to the immortal soul teaching, when the body of an individual dies, the soul (which is said to be invisible) comes out of the dead body and goes off either to heaven or to hell.

Just as the Judeo-Christian Bible does not support the hellfire dogma, it likewise does not teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives a person's physical death. This teaching of the immortal soul is another teaching copied from pagan religions by the Roman Catholics and grafted into their perverted version of Christianity--after Jesus returned to heavenly life. (Again, pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)

[BoogyMan]

The false doctrine being spread by Alter2Ego here is dangerous and without basis. The Bible clearly supports a literal Hell as shown below:

Jesus taught that Hell is real...
1. Sinners are cast there (Matt. 5:29-30).
2. Outer darkness, with weeping & gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12).
3. Place of destruction (Matt. 10:28) & condemnation (Matt. 23:33).
4. Everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41).
5. Everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46).
6. Where their worm does not die & fire is not quenched (Mk. 9:47-48).


The Apostles of Jesus tell us that Hell is real...
Lake of fire; the second death (Rev. 20:14-15)


Jesus and His apostles use Hell as a very compelling reason to fear/respect God...
Matt. 10:28; Rom. 2:5-11; 11:22; Rev. 20:15

[Alter2Ego]

The false doctrine being spread by Alter2Ego here is dangerous and without basis. The Bible clearly supports a literal Hell as shown below:

Jesus taught that Hell is real...
1. Sinners are cast there (Matt. 5:29-30).
2. Outer darkness, with weeping & gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12).
3. Place of destruction (Matt. 10:28) & condemnation (Matt. 23:33).
4. Everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41).
5. Everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46).
6. Where their worm does not die & fire is not quenched (Mk. 9:47-48).


The Apostles of Jesus tell us that Hell is real...
Lake of fire; the second death (Rev. 20:14-15)


Jesus and His apostles use Hell as a very compelling reason to fear/respect God...
Matt. 10:28; Rom. 2:5-11; 11:22; Rev. 20:15

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Now, that is ironic. You are accusing me of teaching a "false doctrine" that is "dangerous", after which you presented a list of PARABLES given by Jesus Christ and FIGURATIVE SPEECH from other places in the Bible as your claim that hellfire torment is a Bible teaching.

You completely ignored the context to the verses you presented. But then again, that is the routine of hellfire howlers and Trinitarians. They cherry-pick a few verses of scripture, isolate a few words from the cherry picked verses, and proceed to ignore the context. Context refers to surrounding words, verses, and chapters. It is the context that enables readers to get the correct understanding of what they are reading.

The context to every single verse of scripture you presented above says they are not talking literal hellfire. To prove my point, I will present the context to all of the verses you provided above and follow with questions to you. I will address only four verses at a time each time I log in. I will begin in the next post.


After I have presented the context to each verse, I will ask you questions to see if you got the point. Ten to one (10-1) you will run from my questions. I know this from experience in dealing with people who refuse to be corrected by Biblical context.

[BoogyMan]

You have corrected nothing and have tried to obfuscate the clear teaching the Bible presents. The text proves itself and I will continue to destroy your heretical dishonesty everywhere I find it.


ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Now, that is ironic. You are accusing me of teaching a "false doctrine" that is "dangerous", after which you presented a list of PARABLES given by Jesus Christ and FIGURATIVE SPEECH from other places in the Bible as your claim that hellfire torment is a Bible teaching.

You completely ignored the context to the verses you presented. But then again, that is the routine of hellfire howlers and Trinitarians. They cherry-pick a few verses of scripture that, isolate a few words from the cherry picked verses, and proceed to ignore the context. Context refers to surrounding words, verses, and chapters. It is the context that enables readers to get the correct understanding of what they are reading.

The context to every single verse of scripture you presented above says they are not talking literal hellfire. To prove my point, I will present the context to all of the verses you provided above and follow with questions to you. I will address only four verses at a time each time I log in. I will begin in the next post.


After I have presented the context to each verse, I will ask you questions to see if you got the point. Ten to one (10-1) you will run from my questions. I know this from experience in dealing with people who refuse to be corrected by Biblical context.

[DLT]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)


It does no such thing. The Creator gave mankind the 'free will' to choose evil or good. If man chooses evil, he, in effect, chooses enslavement by Satan, who loves nothing better than to torment and torture man for all eternity. It's his "hobby of choice", in fact. God, the Creator, wants all men to be saved. But realizes that all will not be saved from "Hellfire" due to their own choice.

[Alter2Ego]

The false doctrine being spread by Alter2Ego here is dangerous and without basis. The Bible clearly supports a literal Hell as shown below:

Jesus taught that Hell is real...
1. Sinners are cast there (Matt. 5:29-30).
2. Outer darkness, with weeping & gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12).
3. Place of destruction (Matt. 10:28) & condemnation (Matt. 23:33).
4. Everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41).
5. Everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46).
6. Where their worm does not die & fire is not quenched (Mk. 9:47-48).

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

I will now address #1 through #4 from your above list. Each of those first four verses are parables that Jesus Christ gave while he was TEACHING. Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, makes it clearly that Jesus Christ always taught by means of parables aka illustrations.

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)



Jesus taught that Hell is real...
1. Sinners are cast there (Matt. 5:29-30).

Notice the context (surrounding verses) to Matthew 5:29-30. The context begins at Matthew 5:1-2, which tells the reader what Jesus was doing before he used the illustration at verses 29-30. Focus on the words that are in all caps and bold within the quotation below.

"{1} When he [Jesus] saw the crowds he went up into the mountain; and after he sat down his disciples came to him;{2} and he [Jesus] opened his mouth and BEGAN TEACHING them, saying:" (Matthew 5:1-2)


QUESTION #1 to BOOGYMAN: According to Matthew 5:2, Jesus was teaching the crowds. YES or NO?


QUESTION #2 to BOOGYMAN: According to Matthew 13:34, Jesus always taught by means of illustrations. YES or NO?




Jesus taught that Hell is real...
2. Outer darkness, with weeping & gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12).

The context to Matthew 8:12 is Matthew 5:13:34, which says Jesus always taught by means of illustrations. Remember, context refers to surrounding words within the same verse, as well as surrounding verses and chapters within the same book of the Bible. Your above quotation is taken from the same book of Matthew where it says Jesus Christ always taught by means of illustrations.

By the way, since when did hellfire torment (blazing fire) turn into outer darkness?

QUESTION #3 to BOOGYMAN: Is not fire supposed to illuminate rather than cause darkness?

[Alter2Ego]

The false doctrine being spread by Alter2Ego here is dangerous and without basis. The Bible clearly supports a literal Hell as shown below:

Jesus taught that Hell is real...
3. Place of destruction (Matt. 10:28) & condemnation (Matt. 23:33).


ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

You are correct. Matthew 10:28 refers to a place of destruction. And the context to that is Matthew 13:34, which says Jesus Christ always taught by means of illustrations. So what point are you attempting to make? Below is the definition of destruction from Webster's Dictionary.

de·struc·tion

noun \di-ˈstrək-shən\ : the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destruction


As everyone reading this thread can see, destruction means something has been caused to be destroyed and even causes the destroyed object to no longer exist.


QUESTION #4 to BOOGYMAN: How can someone that Jesus said is DESTROYED aka no longer exists continue to exist and burn in literal hellfire?




Jesus taught that Hell is real...
3. Place of destruction (Matt. 10:28) & condemnation (Matt. 23:33).

You are correct again. Matthew 23:33 speaks of condemnation and the judgment of Gehenna. But every single verse that you quoted from the book of Matthew is controlled by what is stated at Matthew 13:34. That said, I have now addressed four (4) of your out-of-context verses from the book of Matthew and will not address anymore, at least not today. All of the "hellfire" verses that you presented from the book of Matthew are controlled by what is stated at Matthew 13:34.

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)


The next time I log in, I will deal with another four (4) of you out-of-context verses.

[BoogyMan]

You are actually going to try and claim that because Christ taught in parabolic forms that Hell and eternal destruction cannot be real?

Alter seems to not understand that outer darkness is outside of the presence of the light of the God of Heaven. Alter also needs to consider Matthew 10:28 and work up some of the proper fear that is mentioned there.


And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 12:5 will also teach you thusly:


But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Your first effort is so ridiculous as to make me wonder just exactly how much of the Bible you have actually studied as you now are simply cutting and pasting drivel.


Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.





ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

I will now address #1 through #4 from your above list. Each of those first four verses are parables that Jesus Christ gave while he was TEACHING. Jehovah's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, makes it clearly that Jesus Christ always taught by means of parables aka illustrations.

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)




Notice the context (surrounding verses) to Matthew 5:29-30. The context begins at Matthew 5:1-2, which tells the reader what Jesus was doing before he used the illustration at verses 29-30. Focus on the words that are in all caps and bold within the quotation below.

"{1} When he [Jesus] saw the crowds he went up into the mountain; and after he sat down his disciples came to him;{2} and he [Jesus] opened his mouth and BEGAN TEACHING them, saying:" (Matthew 5:1-2)


QUESTION #1 to BOOGYMAN: According to Matthew 5:2, Jesus was teaching the crowds. YES or NO?


QUESTION #2 to BOOGYMAN: According to Matthew 13:34, Jesus always taught by means of illustrations. YES or NO?





The context to Matthew 8:12 is Matthew 5:13:34, which says Jesus always taught by means of illustrations. Remember, context refers to surrounding words within the same verse, as well as surrounding verses and chapters within the same book of the Bible. Your above quotation is taken from the same book of Matthew where it says Jesus Christ always taught by means of illustrations.

By the way, since when did hellfire torment (blazing fire) turn into outer darkness?

QUESTION #3 to BOOGYMAN: Is not fire supposed to illuminate rather than cause darkness?

[revelarts]

Boggie has pointed out the text here.

But What i wonder about when people say Hell and the Lake of Fire oare an "illustration" or a "symbol"
well OK sooo
what the Heck is it a Symbol for?!

When Jesus says they will be tormented forever what does that mean? Something less than or something worse?
Do you have any verses that make that clear?
You can't do it? sadly outside of literal souls in burning torment there's no honest alternative reading.

But besides that Jesus did explain many of the parables,
and one parable he made it CRYSTAL CLEAR that the Parable only described another real burning place of torment.

When Jesus told the parable of the weeds sown in the field in Mathew 13.

The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
....
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

[Alter2Ego]

You are actually going to try and claim that because Christ taught in parabolic forms that Hell and eternal destruction cannot be real?

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Correct, Christ used parables/illustrations to warn people about eternal destruction. He did not teach about literal hellfire torment, because for that to be possible, there could be no eternal destruction. In fact, every single time you mention "eternal destruction," you end up debunking your argument for literal hellfire torment. Why so? Because by definition, someone who has been eternally destroyed does not exist anymore. And if a person no longer exists, it would be impossible for the person to be aware that he/she is burning in a place of literal fiery torment. Below once again is the definition of destruction.

de·struc·tion
noun \di-ˈstrək-shən\
: the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destruction


QUESTION #5 to BOOGYMAN: In order for someone to be able to experience being burned in literal hellfire torment, would not the person have to continue to exist, meaning the person is alive and conscious--as opposed to being eternally destroyed?

[Alter2Ego]

Alter seems to not understand that outer darkness is outside of the presence of the light of the God of Heaven. Alter also needs to consider Matthew 10:28 and work up some of the proper fear that is mentioned there.

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

And what has any of that to do with flames of fire in hell? That was your initial claim when you presented Matthew 8:12. You said Matthew 8:12 is proof of hellfire torment in the Bible. Now you are switching up and telling me that "outer darkness" refers to being "outside the presence of the light of God," as if somehow that will change the fact that the verse says nothing whatever about the fiery flames in hell. Below is a quotation of Matthew 8:12.

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12 -- King James Version)



BTW: Is it possible you are dodging my question about "outer darkness" by making an issue of Matthew 10:28? Focus on the word that is bolded in all caps within the quotation below of Matthew 10:28.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28 -- New International Version)



Let me remind you that Matthew 10:28 is another of Jesus' parables. Not only that, the verse uses the word "destroy." By definition, someone that has been destroyed no longer exists. So when Jesus Christ speaks of destroying both soul and body in "hell", he is referring to annihilation--eternal destruction from which there will be no resurrection.

[BoogyMan]

Eternal destruction is in the lake that burns with fire. What you are saying here is that YOU can limit the power of God because you refuse to believe that he can do as he has said he would.

Just as Heaven is a prepared place for a prepared people, so is Hell.

You ignore the word eternally in eternally destroyed or everlasting destruction.

When one looks into the original Greek it is easier to see (if you look honestly). Below we have 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6781&stc=1

Such destruction is everlasting, meaning never ending, meaning forever more.


ev·er·last·ing (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/everlasting)adjective\ˌe-vər-ˈlas-tiŋ\
: lasting forever (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/everlasting)

You got nothing....



ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Correct, Christ used parables/illustrations to warn people about eternal destruction. He did not teach about literal hellfire torment, because for that to be possible, there could be no eternal destruction. In fact, every single time you mention "eternal destruction," you end up debunking your argument for literal hellfire torment. Why so? Because by definition, someone who has been eternally destroyed does not exist anymore. And if a person no longer exists, it would be impossible for the person to be aware that he/she is burning in a place of literal fiery torment. Below once again is the definition of destruction.

de·struc·tion
noun \di-ˈstrək-shən\
: the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destruction


QUESTION #5 to BOOGYMAN: In order for someone to be able to experience being burned in literal hellfire torment, would not the person have to continue to exist, meaning the person is alive and conscious--as opposed to being eternally destroyed?

[Alter2Ego]

Eternal destruction is in the lake that burns with fire. What you are saying here is that YOU can limit the power of God because you refuse to believe that he can do as he has said he would.

Just as Heaven is a prepared place for a prepared people, so is Hell.

You ignore the word eternally in eternally destroyed or everlasting destruction.

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Be sure and identify Bible book, chapter, and verse where you got the idea that the lake of fire is literal. You failed to do so in your above comment, during which you continue to ignore the fact that the words "destroy" and "destruction" indicate something or someone no longer exists. It explains why you continue to run from my Question #4. Below again is the definition of the word "destruction".


de·struc·tion

noun \di-ˈstrək-shən\ : the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destruction



QUESTION #4 to BOOGYMAN: How can someone that Jesus said is eternally destroyed aka forever ceases to exist continue to exist and burn in literal hellfire?

[Alter2Ego]

When one looks into the original Greek it is easier to see (if you look honestly). Below we have 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6781&stc=1

Such destruction is everlasting, meaning never ending, meaning forever more.



You got nothing....

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Since you are giving me wash, rinse, and repeat by telling me that destruction is everlasting, I will return the favor by asking you another of my questions that you have been running from.


QUESTION #5 to BOOGYMAN: In order for someone to be able to experience being burned in literal hellfire torment, would not the person have to continue to exist, meaning the person is alive and conscious--as opposed to being everlastingly destroyed?

[revelarts]

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Be sure and identify Bible book, chapter, and verse where you got the idea that the lake of fire is literal. You failed to do so in your above comment, during which you continue to ignore the fact that the words "destroy" and "destruction" indicate something or someone no longer exists. It explains why you continue to run from my Question #4. Below again is the definition of the word "destruction".


de·struc·tion

noun \di-ˈstrək-shən\ : the act or process of damaging something so badly that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired : the act or process of destroying something

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destruction



QUESTION #4 to BOOGYMAN: How can someone that Jesus said is eternally destroyed aka forever ceases to exist continue to exist and burn in literal hellfire?

Mathew 13
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, ...40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
..........
Revelations 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....
...12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; ..
...15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



So we have 2 things here in revelations.
1st the devil and false prophet tormented day and night forever.
that's pretty clear, not exactly destruction or ending there.
And then People ---who were already dead--- not destroyed at death, judged after death and tossed into the same fire the devil and false prophet are.... for the same punishment.

you have to twist into a pretzel and skirt the plain meaning to try and say it's otherwise. Or simply impose your preconceived idea upon the text.

but it says,
"tormented day and night for ever and ever."
it's horrific but it does no good to deny it.

[Alter2Ego]

Mathew 13
36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”

37 He answered, ...40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
..........


ALTER2EGO -to- REVELARTS:

Look at the word that I bolded in blue from within your quotation of Matthew 13:36. It says in plain English PARABLE. Jesus was giving a parable aka an illustration. Parables are never literal. In fact, by definition, a parable is a fictitious story. The intention of parable/illustration is to teach a lesson by using hyperbole.


DEFINITION OF "PARABLE":
": example; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parable



Even when Jesus explains the parable, he uses figurative speech, which also is not literal. His reference to the figurative "burning furnace" is equivalent to the figurative "lake of fire." Whenever fire is used figuratively in the Bible, it is with reference to everlasting destruction.

But since you want to argue that those who died wicked will be tossed into a literal furnace of fire where they will literally weep and gnashing their teeth, below is a question for you--the same question that BoogyMan has been running from (which is Question 4 in the case of BoogyMan).


QUESTION #1 to REVELARTS: How can someone that Jesus said is DESTROYED aka no longer exists continue to exist and burn in a literal furnace of fire?

[BoogyMan]

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Since you are giving me wash, rinse, and repeat by telling me that destruction is everlasting, I will return the favor by asking you another of my questions that you have been running from.


QUESTION #5 to BOOGYMAN: In order for someone to be able to experience being burned in literal hellfire torment, would not the person have to continue to exist, meaning the person is alive and conscious--as opposed to being everlastingly destroyed?

Running from? I have answered your half-witted assertions with scripture each and every time you have puked up your false doctrine here. You seem to think that the Bible is not understandable by all and that makes you VERY dangerous. Until you actually spend a few moments considering the fact that your assertions would make God the author confusion you will NEVER find yourself growing past your soul destroying personally made up doctrine.

I will point out to you that a soul is everlasting. Everlasting destruction in torment as described in the bible in the verses I previously gave you show the ultimate end of the unrepentant sinner. An everlasting soul sent to it's reward for the deeds it has done in this life.

Everlasting destruction describes the eternal torment of that soul in the fires of Hell away from the presence of the one true almighty God of Heaven.

I have given you the text. I have shown you the text is true to the original Greek in which it was written. I have explained the simplicity of God's revelation and yet you still continue to try and defend your false doctrine.

2 Peter chapter 2 warns about those who would bring in such destructive heresies as you have tried here.


2 Peter Chapter 2 verses 1-3: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

[revelarts]

ALTER2EGO -to- REVELARTS:

Look at the word that I bolded in blue from within your quotation of Matthew 13:36. It says in plain English PARABLE. Jesus was giving a parable aka an illustration. Parables are never literal. In fact, by definition, a parable is a fictitious story. The intention of parable/illustration is to teach a lesson by using hyperbole.


DEFINITION OF "PARABLE":
": example; specifically : a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parable



Even when Jesus explains the parable, he uses figurative speech, which also is not literal. His reference to the figurative "burning furnace" is equivalent to the figurative "lake of fire." Whenever fire is used figuratively in the Bible, it is with reference to everlasting destruction.



When he's ask to explain it he Explains it. Do you want Webster's or Jesus? He doesn't give a moral explanation , He outlines a series of events finishing with "the end of this world." is what he says.
the wheat, tares and small fires of the parable were figurative.
figurative of the people, angels and the larger FIRE and literal events to come.

'burning furnace' 'lake of fire' describe the literal place of fire, pain, heat and torment.

There's no way to turn it into simple destruction. REAL hell is going on, fire, heat Burning forever. If I call the mouth of a volcano a LAKE of fire I'm describing it literally. If I call it a fiery furnace I'm describing it literally.

Lakes of fire and burning furnaces are certainly not a figurative language for beach homes, headaches, emptiness or ZERO.







But since you want to argue that those who died wicked will be tossed into a literal furnace of fire where they will literally weep and gnashing their teeth, below is a question for you--the same question that BoogyMan has been running from (which is Question 4 in the case of BoogyMan).

QUESTION #1 to REVELARTS: How can someone that Jesus said is DESTROYED aka no longer exists continue to exist and burn in a literal furnace of fire?

If your speaking of the verse in Matthew and you want to be a stickler for the meaning
what He says is
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

But, here's the thing A2E It's clear by accessing all the verses on the subject read together for their meaning that what is described is an enduring torment an enduring "destruction". Not a cease to exist. If there was only ONE verse that made the point you make and NO others that clarifiied the subject then we could accept it. But it's not the case. the other verses do not allow for the "webster" definition to prevail in the biblical context here.

Just as a mother's command to a child to on a certain night of "Go to bed" is not summed up in just the definitions of those words. what is meant is Go to bed and SLEEP. A kid insisting that the definition of bed is... doesn't change the context of the mother's command and other commands that have made it very plain what she meant.

[Alter2Ego]

Running from? I have answered your half-witted assertions with scripture each and every time you have puked up your false doctrine here. You seem to think that the Bible is not understandable by all and that makes you VERY dangerous. Until you actually spend a few moments considering the fact that your assertions would make God the author confusion you will NEVER find yourself growing past your soul destroying personally made up doctrine.

ALTER2EGO -to- BOOGYMAN:

Everybody reading this thread knows you did not answer my questions, because none of my four (4) questions asked for scripture. They either required a "YES" or "NO" answer, or else they required a common senses answer. A "common sense" answer must be given in one's own words, as evidence that one comprehends the statements from which the question is taken.

Below is your first out-of-context verses that I addressed, taken from Post 36.

POST 36
WEBLINK: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?45985-Is-LITERAL-Hellfire-Torment-A-Bible-Teaching&p=710844#post710844

The false doctrine being spread by Alter2Ego here is dangerous and without basis. The Bible clearly supports a literal Hell as shown below:

Jesus taught that Hell is real...
1. Sinners are cast there (Matt. 5:29-30).


I responded at Post 40 at the following weblink: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?45985-Is-LITERAL-Hellfire-Torment-A-Bible-Teaching&p=711912#post711912 by quoting parts of the context to Matthew 5:29-30. That is, I quoted verses from within the same Matthew chapter 5. The verses that I quoted clearly state that Jesus Christ was giving illustrations while teaching:

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them;" (Matthew 13:34)



"{1} When he [Jesus] saw the crowds he went up into the mountain; and after he sat down his disciples came to him;{2} and he [Jesus] opened his mouth and BEGAN TEACHING them, saying:" (Matthew 5:1-2)


NOTE: Illustrations/parables are fictitious stories intended to teach a larger lesson. And that's fiction as in: "It is not real."



After I quoted Matthew 13:34 and Matthew 5:1-2 at Post 40, I followed by asking you two simple questions. The questions required "YES" and "NO" answers, not scriptures.


QUESTION #1 to BOOGYMAN: According to Matthew 5:2, Jesus was teaching the crowds. YES or NO?


QUESTION #2 to BOOGYMAN: According to Matthew 13:34, Jesus always taught by means of illustrations. YES or NO?


Instead of answering Questions #1 and #2 with "yes" or "no", you took off running aka evaded the questions, as noted below.

POST 42
WEBLINK: http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?45985-Is-LITERAL-Hellfire-Torment-A-Bible-Teaching&p=711962#post711962


You are actually going to try and claim that because Christ taught in parabolic forms that Hell and eternal destruction cannot be real?

Alter seems to not understand that outer darkness is outside of the presence of the light of the God of Heaven. Alter also needs to consider Matthew 10:28 and work up some of the proper fear that is mentioned there.


Luke 12:5 will also teach you thusly:


Your first effort is so ridiculous as to make me wonder just exactly how much of the Bible you have actually studied as you now are simply cutting and pasting drivel.


Jesus is the speaker at both Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:5. Scripture at Matthew 13:34 says he always used illustrations/parables when teaching people. So everytime you present verses from Jesus Christ as proof of hellfire torment being in the Bible, you are in reality presenting parables/illustrations or figurative speech. Based upon the context of Matthew 10:28 and Luke 12:5, Jesus was using FIGURATIVE SPEECH, which has a deeper meaning than the actual words being used.




I will present your evasive responses to Questions #3 and #4, in my next post.

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Just as there is no scriptural support for Christendom's Trinity god, likewise, there is no scriptural support for Christendom's version of Dante's fictional hell. Not one single person thus far has been able to present a single verse of scripture in this thread where it speaks of LITERAL hellfire torment. Instead, they showed up presenting parables/illustrations by Jesus Christ or else they quoted out-of-context verses where symbolic speech was being used. Not only that, when I asked them direct "YES" and "NO" questions, they took off running: Proof positive that they do not care to be corrected by scripture and that they are only interested in traditions of men.

[tailfins]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Just as there is no scriptural support for Christendom's Trinity god, likewise, there is no scriptural support for Christendom's version of Dante's fictional hell. Not one single person thus far has been able to present a single verse of scripture in this thread where it speaks of LITERAL hellfire torment. Instead, they showed up presenting parables/illustrations by Jesus Christ or else they quoted out-of-context verses where symbolic speech was being used. Not only that, when I asked them direct "YES" and "NO" questions, they took off running: Proof positive that they do not care to be corrected by scripture and that they are only interested in traditions of men.


Revelation 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition

[Alter2Ego]

Revelation 20:15

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Cambridge Edition

tailfins:

The book of Revelation is written almost entirely in symbolic language. Revelation 20:15 happens to be one of those instances, and the context makes it clear that the "lake of fire" is not a literal place. You deliberately ignored the verse that comes just before the one you quoted. Specifically, you ignored verse 14 and cherry-picked verse 15. Notice the portions bolded in light blue within the quotation below from Revelation 20:14:


"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14 -- King James Bible)


Since you want to argue that the lake of fire is literal, suppose you explain to the rest of the forum how death (a condition) can literally be burned in a literal fiery lake so that death itself is put to death aka "the second death"? While you are at it, explain how hell itself can literally be placed inside the lake of fire and be put to death aka "the second death."


I will watch for your explanations along those lines.


Alter2Ego

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

I have been gone from this website for several months, and in all that time, neither "Boogyman," nor "revelarts," nor "tailfins" have been able to explain how someone who--according to scripture is DESTROYED--can still continue to EXIST in order to literally burn in Christendom's version of Dante's fictional hell.

[jimnyc]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:



Appreciate the update!! I think they ran to the hills, they were breaking the law, it was only 2 minutes to midnight and they had nothing left to lose.

[Perianne]

There has to be a hell. Otherwise where would Ted Kennedy, Abraham Lincoln, and Hillary Clinton spend eternity?

[Gunny]

Got a proxy IP now? You still quack and waddle like a duck .....

[PixieStix]

Care to speculate then on why God cast Satan ad her friends to Eden with the power to deceive Eve, dominion over man?

If hell was created for Angels, what do humans need with a savior? None have to worry about hell if it was created only for Angels.

Regards
DL

In Christianity, the outer darkness is a place referred to three times in the Gospel of Matthew (8:12, 22:13, and 25:30) into which a person may be "cast out", and where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

[darin]

I find it a little frustrating to see folks who mean well absolutely refuse to use context when sharing 'proof verses'.