Veganism? Don't be so extreme.

[Noir]

Flawless victory.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/jonathan-mcc/BD1F01F0-1395-4E37-B0E5-020F0F731DC9_zpsaap6gbc6.jpg (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/jonathan-mcc/media/BD1F01F0-1395-4E37-B0E5-020F0F731DC9_zpsaap6gbc6.jpg.html)

[jafar00]

I'd just eat the sheep ;)

[tailfins]

I always liked veal with Foie Gras. Of course veal is a baby cow. What is the dish name for baby sheep? Where would you find it?

[Noir]

I always liked veal with Foie Gras. Of course veal is a baby cow. What is the dish name for baby sheep? Where would you find it?

A 'baby sheep' is called a lamb =/

[tailfins]

A 'baby sheep' is called a lamb =/

Of course, the culinary name is the same as the farmhouse name in this case. North American cuisine is stingy with lamb where you get "lamb medallions" or more bone than meat lamb chops. Where you go to a Brazilian place and ask for "carneiro" you get all the mutton you can eat. I prefer veal over lamb unless they are willing to give more generous lamb portions. Which irks you more, people eating lamb or Foie Gras?

[Noir]

Of course, the culinary name is the same as the farmhouse name in this case. North American cuisine is stingy with lamb where you get "lamb medallions" or more bone than meat lamb chops. Where you go to a Brazilian place and ask for "carneiro" you get all the mutton you can eat. I prefer veal over lamb unless they are willing to give more generous lamb portions. Which irks you more, people eating lamb or Foie Gras?

I'd have to go with foie gras, you have to be either ignorant of the process involved, or a disgusting human to want an animal to needlessly go through that much pain.

[Drummond]

I'd have to go with foie gras, you have to be either ignorant of the process involved, or a disgusting human to want an animal to needlessly go through that much pain.

.. h'm. I'm an unashamed meat eater, but this being true, I'm nonetheless totally against needless cruelty in the preparation of it. Which means that you have an 'unlikely ally' here, Noir.

Foie Gras is needless cruelty, and no human being worthy of the name should ever want to support it.

I'd add 'Halal' preparation of meat to that as well. I expect it's the same for you, Noir .. but I'm seeing an increase in outlets here, prepared to not only sell it but openly advertise it.

No doubt that's to appease the Muslim wish to obtain it. Probably there's a correlation between its sale increase and the increase in Muslim numbers in the UK. Since, after all, appeasement to cruelty can, indeed, be reconciled with the satisfaction of political correctness imperatives .....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27324224


Halal is Arabic for permissible. Halal food is that which adheres to Islamic law, as defined in the Koran.

The Islamic form of slaughtering animals or poultry, dhabiha, involves killing through a cut to the jugular vein, carotid artery and windpipe.

Animals must be alive and healthy at the time of slaughter and all blood is drained from the carcass. During the process, a Muslim will recite a dedication, know as tasmiya or shahada.

There is debate about elements of halal, such as whether stunning is allowed.

Stunning cannot be used to kill an animal, according to the Halal Food Authority (HFA), a non-profit organisation that monitors adherence to halal principles. But it can be used if the animal survives and is then killed by halal methods, the HFA adds.

[Noir]

Comics that just keep giving.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/jonathan-mcc/87F9AB63-BD3F-4DB1-8B3F-6CCA1620A3E7_zpsyrfwzua9.jpg (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/jonathan-mcc/media/87F9AB63-BD3F-4DB1-8B3F-6CCA1620A3E7_zpsyrfwzua9.jpg.html)

[Drummond]

Comics that just keep giving.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/jonathan-mcc/87F9AB63-BD3F-4DB1-8B3F-6CCA1620A3E7_zpsyrfwzua9.jpg (http://s80.photobucket.com/user/jonathan-mcc/media/87F9AB63-BD3F-4DB1-8B3F-6CCA1620A3E7_zpsyrfwzua9.jpg.html)

Here, we don't agree, Noir. Eating eggs doesn't involve any issue of cruelty. Nor does it involve, of course, even killing live animals.

More eggs can always be produced, Noir.

[Noir]

Here, we don't agree, Noir. Eating eggs doesn't involve any issue of cruelty. Nor does it involve, of course, even killing live animals. More eggs can always be produced, Noir.

I'm afraid the egg industry is very cruel indeed, and it does involve killing live animals, by the millions.

Male chicks are unprofitable for the egg industry, a useless byproduct, so they are quickly sorted away from the females and disposed of. The two cheapest (and so most popular methods) are either tossing them down shoots and put through grinders, alive. Or simply by shovelling them into bins, where they will die of suffocation and heat exhaustion.

Here are some non-graphic examples, if you have the desire (and i hope you do) look the topic up on youtube, and you can see the graphic reality, and consequence, of buying eggs.

http://theveganpensieve.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/male_chickes.jpg

http://puntito131.puntopressllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/chicksGroundDown.jpg?68cbda

[Drummond]

I'm afraid the egg industry is very cruel indeed, and it does involve killing live animals, by the millions.

Male chicks are unprofitable for the egg industry, a useless byproduct, so they are quickly sorted away from the females and disposed of. The two cheapest (and so most popular methods) are either tossing them down shoots and put through grinders, alive. Or simply by shovelling them into bins, where they will die of suffocation and heat exhaustion.

Here are some non-graphic examples, if you have the desire (and i hope you do) look the topic up on youtube, and you can see the graphic reality, and consequence, of buying eggs.

http://theveganpensieve.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/male_chickes.jpg

http://puntito131.puntopressllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/chicksGroundDown.jpg?68cbda

Noir, you're well aware of the availability of eggs from farms which arrange a far happier life for the animals producing them than what you've shown to us here. The answer to this is not to buy battery produced eggs, nor eggs that are especially cheap. Remaining attentive to the assurances given is all that's needed here.

Just checking out the categories described in your local Tesco or Sainsburys would address this adequately.

[Noir]

Noir, you're well aware of the availability of eggs from farms which arrange a far happier life for the animals producing them than what you've shown to us here. The answer to this is not to buy battery produced eggs, nor eggs that are especially cheap. Remaining attentive to the assurances given is all that's needed here.

Just checking out the categories described in your local Tesco or Sainsburys would address this adequately.

These are not necessarily battery produced eggs, those pics could be from the most free-range, organic, lion stamped farm in the country. Thats the point!
ANY EGGS you buy from Tescos or Sainsburys have gone through this process. ANY.

The egg industry make you think you can make the 'right choice' by reading a label or seeing a stamp, but that is just not the case.

[jimnyc]

Here are some non-graphic examples, if you have the desire (and i hope you do) look the topic up on youtube, and you can see the graphic reality, and consequence, of buying eggs.

http://puntito131.puntopressllc.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/chicksGroundDown.jpg?68cbda

Seeing this makes me sad and not want to eat eggs anymore, which I am a huge fan of (eating eggs). The smaller farms I have visited and known the farmers, they just don't do this. "Family" farmers won't needlessly slaughter animals. Seeing little chicks discarded like that is horrible. I wish there was something they could do with them so that their lives aren't snuffed out. Kinda like seeing tens of dogs at the shelter and feeling helpless. I honestly don't know what else they could do with the male chicks. But I do know that someone out there has a heart made out of chewed up bubble gum if they are able to kill these cute little fellas.

I know I'll never stop eating meat or eggs, but often I feel super guilty and know I'm a hypocrite. I've always said the same thing - I know I'm a hypocrite and I'd rather remain ignorant of anything that happens prior to me going into Stop and Shop for my groceries.

[aboutime]

Seeing this makes me sad and not want to eat eggs anymore, which I am a huge fan of (eating eggs). The smaller farms I have visited and known the farmers, they just don't do this. "Family" farmers won't needlessly slaughter animals. Seeing little chicks discarded like that is horrible. I wish there was something they could do with them so that their lives aren't snuffed out. Kinda like seeing tens of dogs at the shelter and feeling helpless. I honestly don't know what else they could do with the male chicks. But I do know that someone out there has a heart made out of chewed up bubble gum if they are able to kill these cute little fellas.

I know I'll never stop eating meat or eggs, but often I feel super guilty and know I'm a hypocrite. I've always said the same thing - I know I'm a hypocrite and I'd rather remain ignorant of anything that happens prior to me going into Stop and Shop for my groceries.


jimnyc: Photos of those chicks going to slaughter are merely used by the Vegan's and PETA to proliferate their hatred against anyone who eats meat in any way.
Wonder how the PETA members might have managed to survive over the millions of years if...THE CAVEMEN and (politically correct) WOMEN hadn't killed animals in order to survive?

Truth is. Humanity wasn't advanced enough...beyond the "FLINTSTONE ERA" to have camera's or recording equipment to see DINO being killed by ROCKS, or SPEARS with Pointed STONES.
Consequently. If there had been a PETA during the STONE AGE. Members may have become the ORIGINAL BURGERS...on the BARBEE.

[Noir]

Seeing this makes me sad and not want to eat eggs anymore, which I am a huge fan of (eating eggs). The smaller farms I have visited and known the farmers, they just don't do this. "Family" farmers won't needlessly slaughter animals. Seeing little chicks discarded like that is horrible. I wish there was something they could do with them so that their lives aren't snuffed out. Kinda like seeing tens of dogs at the shelter and feeling helpless. I honestly don't know what else they could do with the male chicks. But I do know that someone out there has a heart made out of chewed up bubble gum if they are able to kill these cute little fellas. I know I'll never stop eating meat or eggs, but often I feel super guilty and know I'm a hypocrite. I've always said the same thing - I know I'm a hypocrite and I'd rather remain ignorant of anything that happens prior to me going into Stop and Shop for my groceries.

FairPlay, the default stance of most is either 'I know it happens, but can get by with not thinking about it' or just total ignorance over what happens at all.

At least if someone knows what is happening, accepts it, and knows they are hypocritical when it comes it it, they are being honest with themselves.

Those who are totally ignorant, need to learn about it, and make the decision based on that, as ignorance is no basis for any decision.

Then there are those who for whatever reason will just mock and insult regardless. These people are to be pitied.

[Gaffer]

FairPlay, the default stance of most is either 'I know it happens, but can get by with not thinking about it' or just total ignorance over what happens at all.

At least if someone knows what is happening, accepts it, and knows they are hypocritical when it comes it it, they are being honest with themselves.

Those who are totally ignorant, need to learn about it, and make the decision based on that, as ignorance is no basis for any decision.

Then there are those who for whatever reason will just mock and insult regardless. These people are to be pitied.

But you left out those that just don't care.

Firing up the grill here for steak and spare ribs.

[Noir]

But you left out those that just don't care. Firing up the grill here for steak and spare ribs.

I'm sure you do care about animal abuse.

[aboutime]

I'm sure you do care about animal abuse.


Noir. Odd thing about human beings. When they get hungry enough. They will eat just about anything. If there are no veggies available, and you haven't eaten in many days, or weeks.
Would you demand pulling weeds on the sidewalk would solve your hunger problems?

[Drummond]

These are not necessarily battery produced eggs, those pics could be from the most free-range, organic, lion stamped farm in the country. Thats the point!
ANY EGGS you buy from Tescos or Sainsburys have gone through this process. ANY.

The egg industry make you think you can make the 'right choice' by reading a label or seeing a stamp, but that is just not the case.

No, Noir.

When was the last time you visited the correct aisle and checked out their ranges of eggs ? What about their 'Tesco Finest' range ?

From Tesco themselves:

http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=250802567


Tesco Free Range Eggs. These freshly laid Tesco free range eggs come from carefully selected British farms that ensure high standards of both henand environmental welfare. Our hens enjoy a cereal based vegetarian diet and are free to roam outdoors during the day. The Lion Quality mark guarantees that the eggs have been laid in the UK and produced to the highest standards of food safety. All Lion Quality eggs are date stamped for freshness. Our hens have been vaccinated against salmonella.

You know what the British market is like, Noir. There will be low income families who won't care about the history of their food .. just that they can afford to buy it. And, OK, outfits like Tesco, especially in inner city areas, are bound to cater to that market .. Tesco have their 'Everyday' cut price range.

BUT .. they also cater to the other end of the market, too, regardless of what you claim. My suggestion ... if people want to stamp out cruelty in food-selling, stick to animal cruelty free items, Noir, that Tesco DO sell. Tesco are never going to stop selling eggs. However, if there were too little demand for a product unless it was cruelty-free, then manufacturers, farms, would have to accommodate the nature of that demand.

[Noir]

Noir. Odd thing about human beings. When they get hungry enough. They will eat just about anything. If there are no veggies available, and you haven't eaten in many days, or weeks. Would you demand pulling weeds on the sidewalk would solve your hunger problems?

I love the hypotheticals that always come with these discussions, they are never at all ridiculous xD

[aboutime]

I love the hypotheticals that always come with these discussions, they are never at all ridiculous xD


How typically liberal American of you? Using the hypothetical excuse, rather than bothering to answer the question.
I didn't start this thread. I offered my opinion, and you still deflect by creating an excuse.

[Noir]

No, Noir. When was the last time you visited the correct aisle and checked out their ranges of eggs ? What about their 'Tesco Finest' range ? From Tesco themselves: http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=250802567 You know what the British market is like, Noir. There will be low income families who won't care about the history of their food .. just that they can afford to buy it. And, OK, outfits like Tesco, especially in inner city areas, are bound to cater to that market .. Tesco have their 'Everyday' cut price range. BUT .. they also cater to the other end of the market, too, regardless of what you claim. My suggestion ... if people want to stamp out cruelty in food-selling, stick to animal cruelty free items, Noir, that Tesco DO sell. Tesco are never going to stop selling eggs. However, if there were too little demand for a product unless it was cruelty-free, then manufacturers, farms, would have to accommodate the nature of that demand.

When was the last time you heard anything about these farms other than what the farms themselves, or their sells have to say?


Five animal farms celebrated during the past three years as meeting the industry’s highest possible standards are exposed in a shocking new Animal Aid undercover investigation. Secretly-shot footage shows dead and dying chickens packed into massive sheds; diseased pigs barely able to walk; crowded, filthy pens; and cows kept all-year-round in barren ‘zero-grazing’ units.

The revelations come in the week that Park Lane’s Grosvenor House Hotel in London hosts the annual Farmer of the Year Awards (FoTY). The five farms investigated by Animal Aid were all shortlisted for, or won, a FoTY award between 2010-2012. They are located in Bedfordshire, Essex, Somerset, Northumberland and Dumfries & Galloway.

Farmers Weekly (FW), the event organiser, says that the awards ‘showcase the best farmers in the country by telling their stories. They aim to spread best practice, inspire others and influence the public about the role that farmers play in today’s society.’

Past Animal Aid on-farm investigations exposing high levels of squalor, neglect and disease have usually been dismissed by industry spokespeople as unrepresentative ‘bad-apples’. The same, clearly, cannot be said of the subjects of the new exposé.

Doesn't sound too good, from the 'best in britian'?
But lets read on...


Sunny Hill Free Range Eggs, Northumberland: keeps 57,000 ‘free range’ chickens; supplies Tesco, Morrisons and ASDA. It is accredited under the Freedom Foods and Lion Code schemes.

The chickens were tightly packed into their housing units. With no perches provided, hens had to perch on food trays, machinery and water hoses. The floor of the sheds was a metal mesh that allowed droppings to fall through, and a huge pile of faecal matter could be seen underneath. This encouraged flies to breed. A large number were seen flying around the sheds and covering the floor of an adjoining office.

Hmm... Free range, freedom stamped, lion stamped, farm of the year... some standards, no? But its okay, you read the box and saw the stamps.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_factory//2753//

[Noir]

How typically liberal American of you? Using the hypothetical excuse, rather than bothering to answer the question. I didn't start this thread. I offered my opinion, and you still deflect by creating an excuse.

And the best opinion you could muster was the same, boring, totally unrealistic hypothetical? Inspiring.

Pic reply because pretty colours;
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MyTxYCB_sNg/UqOaoMvKubI/AAAAAAAADbY/k6JaM0kJmdE/s1600/1462974_559297714164689_1800492179_n.jpg

[aboutime]

And the best opinion you could muster was the same, boring, totally unrealistic hypothetical? Inspiring.

Pic reply because pretty colours;
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MyTxYCB_sNg/UqOaoMvKubI/AAAAAAAADbY/k6JaM0kJmdE/s1600/1462974_559297714164689_1800492179_n.jpg



SAME EXCUSE, different words, and colors. And still...no answers.

[Drummond]

When was the last time you heard anything about these farms other than what the farms themselves, or their sells have to say?

Well, according to this thread ... from YOU, Noir ...


Hmm... Free range, freedom stamped, lion stamped, farm of the year... some standards, no? But its okay, you read the box and saw the stamps.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/NEWS/news_factory//2753//

I've looked at the link. Some very dire descriptions there (& photos). BUT .... I read nothing about actual prosecutions undertaken, Noir.

I see allegations. I see no reports of court cases, outcomes of those cases. Are these allegations, taken no further than that, or are they proven ?

[Noir]

Well, according to this thread ... from YOU, Noir ... I've looked at the link. Some very dire descriptions there (& photos). BUT .... I read nothing about actual prosecutions undertaken, Noir. I see allegations. I see no reports of court cases, outcomes of those cases. Are these allegations, taken no further than that, or are they proven ?

Animal aid raise awareness and try to lobby government to take the issues further, and are more often than not ignored. Problems arose with court cases due to cost, one big case could cripple a charity like AA, though that's not to say they don't pursue them from time to time.

Last year they had a big push to get CCTV cameras installed in killing floors because they had reams of video footage of animals being barbarically beaten, and so on at 'well respected and audited' slaughterhouses. I do believe i had a thread on here about it at the time.

There were several successful prosecutions against some of the people involved, but the companies faced no repercussions. And though they did put up cameras around their factories, they decided to install them outside the factory to try and stop any undercover filming taking place again, rather than stop any further animal abuse. Company priorities y'know.

As with most things, the public are not really to blame here, you see a pack of eggs with a lion stamp, it's assumed to be okay, because it must be. But it's all just part of the charade.

[NightTrain]

I would very seriously take anything that an Animal Rights group says with a very large amount of skepticism. These people have shown time and again that they have no qualms with playing dirty -- the end justifies the means.

In my experience, Animal Rights groups like PETA are quite underhanded when furthering their cause, and it would appear that your Animal Aid group is similarly afflicted with honesty in order to shock people who don't check things out for themselves.

The first problem that jumped out at me right away with your story is that it was directly from Animal Aid's website instead of a proper news source. There are always legal ramifications with a public food supply company lying and it'll make the papers & television as a legitimate scandal.

Here's the answer to your news story about that story you posted above :


RSPCA report dashes Animal Aid claims
Published on the
14 October 2012
08:17


THE wellbeing of hens laying eggs for one of the north’s largest suppliers has been assured by the RSPCA after allegations were made by an undercover animal rights group.


Sunny Hill, based at Detchant Farm, near Belford, was targeted by Animal Aid, who took photographs of their hens as they were cooped up for the night.


The group claimed that the animal care they found was “shocking” and not up to the standard of a farm that recently won an NFU Best Practice award.


But two independent audits on the farm have refuted those claims completely.


In the RSPCA’s report, carried out on the day immediately after Animal Aid’s claims were made public, the investigator summed up: “I can see no concerns with this unit.


“It’s very well managed and the birds are performing well. On the day of the visit there were no non-conformities.”


Another independent audit, carried out by CMi on behalf of Lion, Sunny Hill’s distributor, also found nothing lacking in the animals’ care.


SunnyHill was also praised by Jack Wight, a local farmer who undertook work experience at Detchant Farm.


In a letter to ‘The Advertiser’, he wrote: “I found the living conditions of the birds to be first class. The farm’s free range status means the birds are allowed access to outdoor conditions during the day, something that many hens never experience.


“Also the technology within the interior of the barn, with regards to temperature and air flow regulation, certainly maintains a comfortable environment for when the birds are indoors.


“The hens’ expertly formulated diet is not only highly palatable but is specifically designed to contain all of their nutritional requirements. Needless to say the birds’ welfare conditions are far from “shocking” as Animal Aid described them.”


Barney Kay, NFU regional director, who has been handling the case on behalf of Sunny Hill commented: “In the last five years Animal Aid has become an increasingly vocal group and undertaken in increasing numbers these illegal entries onto farms.”


He went on top say that he was yet to discover an instance of actual welfare concern, despite dealing with groups such as this for the past five years. “If these individuals are genuinely concerned about welfare, then why do they never make a report the instant they’ve been onto a farm, to the experts such as RSPCA?


“They always wait to collate their ‘evidence’, which suggests they are more interested in self-publicity, rather than improving animal welfare.


“Organisations like these make continued unfounded allegations against perfectly well-run, law abiding businesses and it seems impossible to get fair play in taking action against them. Laws of trespass are extremely weak and as you can’t tell the individuals involved it’s hard to prosecute.


“However allegations of this type can be devastating on these family-run businesses. I’ve seen retailers drop contracts for fear of bad publicity from being associated with a farm that’s had one of these ‘exposes’.


“I’m not saying all farms are perfect, but we have a really comprehensive independent farm assurance auditing system that’s the best in the world and yet we let these guys put good people out of business.”

http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/local/all-news/rspca-report-dashes-animal-aid-claims-1-2567197

That's not to say that there aren't some bad farms treating animals poorly, because there are. But if a company claims "Free Range" like Sunny Farms there in the UK did and it's brought to light that they were lying, they'll be bankrupt in short order because the large stores selling it will dump them fast - not to mention lawsuits and possibly criminal charges leveled at them.

It looks to me like your story is a sham cooked up by overzealous Animal Rights people and/or Vegans to further their cause to turn everyone into vegetarians.

I'm trying to be gentle because I like you, Noir, but you have to look further into some of these kinds of stories & the motivations and tactics behind them.

[Noir]

I would very seriously take anything that an Animal Rights group says with a very large amount of skepticism. These people have shown time and again that they have no qualms with playing dirty -- the end justifies the means. In my experience, Animal Rights groups like PETA are quite underhanded when furthering their cause, and it would appear that your Animal Aid group is similarly afflicted with honesty in order to shock people who don't check things out for themselves. The first problem that jumped out at me right away with your story is that it was directly from Animal Aid's website instead of a proper news source. There are always legal ramifications with a public food supply company lying and it'll make the papers & television as a legitimate scandal. Here's the answer to your news story about that story you posted above : http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/local/all-news/rspca-report-dashes-animal-aid-claims-1-2567197 That's not to say that there aren't some bad farms treating animals poorly, because there are. But if a company claims "Free Range" like Sunny Farms there in the UK did and it's brought to light that they were lying, they'll be bankrupt in short order because the large stores selling it will dump them fast - not to mention lawsuits and possibly criminal charges leveled at them. It looks to me like your story is a sham cooked up by overzealous Animal Rights people and/or Vegans to further their cause to turn everyone into vegetarians. I'm trying to be gentle because I like you, Noir, but you have to look further into some of these kinds of stories & the motivations and tactics behind them.

At no point in that post does it say the pictures animal aid produced where fake, is that not odd to you? Either they were faked, or real.

Its also note worthy that the the farmer complained about weak trespass laws, not forged pictures. Hm?

I'd implore you to watch animal aids undercover videos, then if you wish chose to believe the company press releases, over your lying eyes.

Might I also add that the part we're currently discussing, the welfare of the hens, is long after the males involved have been ground up alive or suffocated to death. As is standard practice.

[NightTrain]

At no point in that post does it say the pictures animal aid produced where fake, is that not odd to you? Either they were faked, or real.

Yeah, actually, they do think it was faked. That's what the line "...collating 'evidence' " was all about.


Its also note worthy that the the farmer complained about weak trespass laws, not forged pictures. Hm?

I'd implore you to watch animal aids undercover videos, then if you wish chose to believe the company press releases, over your lying eyes.

Might I also add that the part we're currently discussing, the welfare of the hens, is long after the males involved have been ground up alive or suffocated to death. As is standard practice.


If they really did catch the farm in question doing these dastardly deeds, then why didn't they go immediately to the authorities as the Inspectors themselves have said? Why did they wait? And how did the entire scenario described get cleaned up the exact same day as the offenses were announced and the inspectors arrived?

That makes no sense - except to produce more 'evidence' from footage gained elsewhere to smear a well-run farm.

Also, the story I posted was the only mention of the incident in any newspaper, which proves that the local reporters and editors aren't buying it, either. If it were true, any liberal journalist would have been all over it -- and there's a majority of liberals in the reporting business these days.

[NightTrain]

When was the last time you heard anything about these farms other than what the farms themselves, or their sells have to say?

Your Government Inspectors and Independent Auditors have given this particular farm excellent ratings and explicitly said that there were no violations whatsoever.


Doesn't sound too good, from the 'best in britian'?
But lets read on...

Sunny Hill Free Range Eggs, Northumberland: keeps 57,000 ‘free range’ chickens; supplies Tesco, Morrisons and ASDA. It is accredited under the Freedom Foods and Lion Code schemes.

The chickens were tightly packed into their housing units.

That's what chickens do during the night. They go inside and roost together for warmth and safety... it's their instinct to do so.


With no perches provided, hens had to perch on food trays, machinery and water hoses.

This would be a violation - you have to provide roosting areas for night time. And you're hardly going to be able to house 57,000 chickens all on the floor - that would take a massive warehouse and be a huge waste of space. Clearly this is a fabrication and silly besides. If you have 57k chickens, you're going to have multi-tier stacks of roosts for those chickens to roost overnight on.

Also, chickens aren't very smart... I've raised them and slaughtered them myself. They don't always go where you want them to, and some will roost on things not intended for them to do so, like hoses, rafters, or anywhere they can fit onto. I have no doubt that they saw chickens parked on strange things.


The floor of the sheds was a metal mesh that allowed droppings to fall through, and a huge pile of faecal matter could be seen underneath.

Chickens crap. A lot. It sounds like they have a good system of removing the crap so that the chickens aren't wallowing in their own filth by having that screen there. 57,000 chickens will produce "a huge pile of faecal matter" in a very short amount of time. That's a shit-ton(!) of birds.


This encouraged flies to breed. A large number were seen flying around the sheds and covering the floor of an adjoining office.

Flies are attracted to feces of any kind, it's in their nature to do so. However, I don't think I've ever seen swarms of flies flying around at night, as when this overnight raid by Animal Aid allegedly took place.

Unless the UK has nocturnal flies that are actively feeding and breeding at night? I don't know because I've never been to the UK, but here in America the flies are only active during the day that I've ever seen.

Besides that, how is it the farmer's fault that flies are attracted to feces? And other than carpet-bombing the entire area with pesticides, what could the farmer possibly do to prevent flies doing what they naturally do? He's already got a Government-Approved method of removing the manure, and it's silly to expect him to remove it 24/7 - that's why there's collection trays below the chicken coop under the screen.

With 57,000 birds, you can bet that those are emptied daily.

[Drummond]

HAH !!!

Good one, NightTrain. If you hadn't intervened, my next point would've been to ask if this group, if really too 'cash-strapped' to act, had considered referring all this on to an official body, with the standing, say, of the RSPCA [Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals] !! They'd be the obvious choice for that sort of action -- they have funding available for prosecutions, and do take cruelty cases to court on a regular basis.

But ... well, well ! The RSPCA have NOT agreed with Noir's chosen animal rights group in their own findings .. quite the opposite.

That settles things, so far as I'm concerned. It's beyond incredible to suppose that the RSPCA would've disagreed on this case, much less to the extent they have, if the description Noir's treated us to was an accurate one. The RSPCA would most definitely have taken an honest, reputable approach to this whole issue.

[Drummond]

I would very seriously take anything that an Animal Rights group says with a very large amount of skepticism. These people have shown time and again that they have no qualms with playing dirty -- the end justifies the means.

In my experience, Animal Rights groups like PETA are quite underhanded when furthering their cause, and it would appear that your Animal Aid group is similarly afflicted with honesty in order to shock people who don't check things out for themselves.

The first problem that jumped out at me right away with your story is that it was directly from Animal Aid's website instead of a proper news source. There are always legal ramifications with a public food supply company lying and it'll make the papers & television as a legitimate scandal.

Here's the answer to your news story about that story you posted above :



http://www.berwick-advertiser.co.uk/news/local/all-news/rspca-report-dashes-animal-aid-claims-1-2567197

That's not to say that there aren't some bad farms treating animals poorly, because there are. But if a company claims "Free Range" like Sunny Farms there in the UK did and it's brought to light that they were lying, they'll be bankrupt in short order because the large stores selling it will dump them fast - not to mention lawsuits and possibly criminal charges leveled at them.

It looks to me like your story is a sham cooked up by overzealous Animal Rights people and/or Vegans to further their cause to turn everyone into vegetarians.

I'm trying to be gentle because I like you, Noir, but you have to look further into some of these kinds of stories & the motivations and tactics behind them.:clap::clap::clap:

Great job, NightTrain - many thanks.

[aboutime]

Only ONE WAY I would agree with Noir, the Animal Rights people, or PETA.

If, and only If...they can convince the SILENT animals to SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES.

I would refuse to attempt eating any animal that has the capability to say "PLEASE DON'T EAT ME!"

[Trigg]

I get my chickens and eggs from local farmers. They aren't crammed full of who knows what to make them grow abnormally and they taste MUCH better. In fact, unless I can't avoid it I don't buy any meat from the grocery.

[Drummond]

I get my chickens and eggs from local farmers. They aren't crammed full of who knows what to make them grow abnormally and they taste MUCH better. In fact, unless I can't avoid it I don't buy any meat from the grocery.

Great choice, if you've that option available to you. That's not true for everyone, of course. Still, I'd prefer it myself if I wasn't such a 'townie' ...

[KitchenKitten99]

Emotions and fear mongering are the key factors for vegans. Along with their newest 'bible', "The China Study".

I have always wondered why if vegans are so into fruits and veggies only and totally avoid meats and other animal products, then why does their food have to be made and taste like meat, etc? And would it kill them to cater to MY beliefs and special diet and cook me a full pound of delicious peachwood-smoked bacon (or better yet, a nice slab of pork belly...mmmm bacon-steak!) in a pan that has never touched that nasty stuff called kale??

There are other reasons for eating as an omnivore: health and nutrition, and it really is unnatural. If you have to stock several supplements to get the nutrients needed, then how can the diet be 'natural'?

This one is particularly interesting as it really picks apart the claims of 'The China Study'. Very detailed and long but if you really read it, you get a great course in macro and micronutrients as well as see how cherry-picking data for promoting one's own ideals can really skew things badly:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/

snippet:




.... Campbell Claim #4Cardiovascular diseases are associated with lower intakes of green vegetables and higher concentrations of apo-B (a form of so-called bad blood cholesterol) which is associated with increasing intakes of animal protein and decreasing intakes of plant protein.Alright, we’ve got a multi-parter here. First, let’s see what the actual correlations are between cardiovascular diseases and green vegetables—an interesting connection, if it holds true. The China Study accounted for this variable in two ways: one through a diet survey that measured how many grams of green vegetables each county averaged per day, and one through a questionnaire that recorded how many times per year citizens ate green vegetables.From the diet survey, green vegetable intake (average grams per day) has the following correlations:Myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease: +5
Hypertensive heart disease: -4
Stroke: -8From the questionnaire, green vegetable intake (times eaten per year) has the following correlations:Myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease: -43**
Hypertensive heart disease: -36*
Stroke: -35*A little odd, oui? When we look at total quantity of green vegetables consumed (in terms of weight), we’ve got only weak negative associations for two cardiovascular conditions, and a slightly positive association for heart attacks (myocardial infarction) and coronary heart disease. Nothing to write home about. But when we look at the number of times per year green vegetables are consumed, we have much stronger inverse associations with all cardiovascular diseases. Why the huge difference? Why would frequency be more protective than quantity? What accounts for this mystery?It could be that the China Study diet survey did a poor job of tracking and estimating greens intake on a long-term basis (indeed, it was only a three-day survey, although when repeated at a later date yielded similar results for each county). But the explanation could also boil down to one word: geography.Let me explain.The counties in China that eat greens year-round live in a particular climate and latitude—namely, humid regions to the south. The “Green vegetable intake, times per year” variable has a correlation of -68*** with aridity (indicating a humid climate) and a correlation of -60*** with latitude (indicating southerly placement on the ol’ map). Folks living in these regions might not eat the most green vegetables quantity-wise, but they do eat them frequently, since their growing season is nearly year-round.In contrast, the variable “Green vegetable intake, grams per day” has a correlation of only -16 with aridity and +5 with latitude, indicating much looser associations with southern geography. The folks who eat lots of green veggies don’t necessarily live in climates with a year-round growing season, but when green vegetables are available, they eat a lot of them. That bumps up the average intake per day, even if they endure some periods where greens aren’t on the menu at all.If green vegetables themselves were protective of heart disease, as Campbell seems to be implying, we would expect their anti-heart-disease effects to be present in both quantity of consumption and frequency of consumption. Yet the counties eating the most greens quantity-wise didn’t have any less cardiovascular disease than average. This tells us there’s probably another variable unique to the southern, humid regions in China that confers heart disease protection—but green veggies aren’t it.Some of the hallmark variables of humid southern regions include high fish intake, low use of salt, high rice consumption (and low consumption of all other grains, especially wheat), higher meat consumption, and smaller body size (shorter height and lower weight). And as you’ll see in an upcoming post on heart disease, these southerly regions also had more intense sunlight exposure and thus more vitamin D—an important player in heart disease prevention.(And for the record, as a green-veggie lover myself, I’m not trying to negate their health benefits—promise! I just want to offer equal skepticism to all claims, even the ones I’d prefer to be true.)Basically, Campbell’s implication that green vegetables are associated with less cardiovascular disease is misleading. More accurately, certain geographical regions have strong correlations with cardiovascular disease (or lack thereof), and year-round green vegetable consumption is simply an indicator of geography. Since only frequency and not actual quantity of greens seems protective of heart disease and stroke, it’s safe to say that greens probably aren’t the true protective factor.So that about covers it for greens. What about the next variable in Campbell’s claim: a “bad” form of cholesterol called apo-B?Campbell is justified in noting the link between apolipoprotein B (apo-B) and cardiovascular disease in the China Study data, a connection widely recognized by the medical community today. These are its correlations with cardiovascular disease:Myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease: +37**
Hypertensive heart disease: +35*
Stroke: +35*And he’s also right about the negative association between apo-B and plant protein, which is -37*, as well as the positive association between apo-B and animal protein, which is +25* for non-fish protein and +16 for fish protein. So from a technical standpoint, Campbell’s statement (aside from the green veggie issue) is legit.However, it’s the implications of this claim that are misleading. From what Campbell asserts, it would seem that animal products are ultimately linked to cardiovascular diseases and plant protein is ultimately protective of those diseases, and apo-B is merely a secondary indicator of this reality. But does that claim hold water? Here’s the raw data.Correlations between animal protein and cardiovascular disease:Myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease: +1
Hypertensive heart disease: +25
Stroke: +5Correlations between fish protein and cardiovascular disease:Myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease: -11
Hypertensive heart disease: -9
Stroke: -11Correlations between plant protein and cardiovascular disease (from the China Study’s “diet survey”):Myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease: +25
Hypertensive heart disease: -10
Stroke: -3Correlations between plant protein and cardiovascular disease (from the China Study’s “food composite analysis”):Myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease: +21
Hypertensive heart disease: 0
Stroke: +12Check that out! Fish protein looks weakly protective all-around; non-fish animal protein is neutral for coronary heart disease/heart attacks and stroke but associates positively with hypertensive heart disease (related to high blood pressure); and plant protein actually correlates fairly strongly with heart attacks and coronary heart disease. (The China Study documented two variables related to plant protein: one from a lab analysis of foods eaten in each county, and one from a diet survey given to county citizens.) Surely, there is no wide division here between the protective or disease-causing effects of animal-based protein versus plant protein. If anything, fish protein looks the most protective of the bunch. No wonder Campbell had to cite a third variable in order to vilify animal products and praise plant protein: Examined directly, they’re nearly neck-and-neck.If you’re wondering about the connection between animal protein and hypertensive heart disease, by the way, it’s actually hiked up solely by the dairy variable. Here are the individual correlations between specific animal foods and hypertensive heart disease:Milk and dairy products intake: +30**
Egg intake: -28
Meat intake: -4
Fish intake: -14You can read more about the connection between dairy and hypertensive heart disease in the entry on dairy in the China Study (http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/06/20/a-closer-look-at-the-china-study-dairy-and-disease/).
At any rate, Campbell accurately points out that apo-B correlates positively with cardiovascular diseases. But to imply animal protein is causative of these diseases—and green vegetables or plant protein protective of them—is dubious at best. What factors cause both apo-B and cardiovascular disease risk to increase hand-in-hand? This is the question we should be asking.

...



http://kristensraw.com/blog/2013/03/17/my-vegan-diet-caused-health-problems-would-primal-paleo-or-real-food-be-better/



...What were my specific health issues from being a vegan so long?Fertility. Well, you all know we struggled with fertility. It’s still a big “what if,” but I feel in my core that we were not nourished enough to conceive on our own. I now know that, despite superfoods and supplements up the wazoo, we lacked some essential fertility-supporting nutrients… stuff you just can’t get in a pill or any bizarre exotic mix of daily goji berries and maca. I could go on at length about just this one issue, but it deserves an entire post which perhaps I’ll write at some point, with all the gory technical details.
Skin issues. Over the years, sometimes I had an amazing glow, especially in the beginning of being vegan and raw. But as the years passed, time and pregnancy took their toll, and with extended breastfeeding… well, my skin started to suffer. I had some horrible breakouts that lasted long and didn’t heal quickly. I started to notice that I had pale, grayish looking skin, and dark circles under my eyes. Of course, I’m a mama to a toddler and constantly sleep deprived so I thought this must all be par for the motherhood course. But then there was the rash I had on my finger since before I was pregnant with Kamea. It would get irritated (and frighteningly worse) with water and too much dish washing, and it would itch, get red, etc. It would come and go, but mostly come for over three years. I kept hearing in my mind what my mom always said, “Your skin manifests problems happening within.” So, I wondered. My diet is awesome, right? Why do I have this rash? Surely my insides are glowing and beautiful. This rash couldn’t mean anything about my food choices. Well, I now have some ideas as to why my vegan diet resulted in skin problems.
My teeth. Since pregnancy and through breastfeeding I’ve had two teeth break plus some other issues. Again, I didn’t think anything of it because I thought my diet was pretty perfect; in hindsight, I was missing important nutrients.
My butt was sagging. I’m 36 years old and, despite regular exercise, my butt was starting to sag. I was embarrassed. I started looking at pictures of when I was younger, maybe 8 years ago and I had a full face, olive skin, and although I was younger back then, I certainly didn’t anticipate a freakin’ saggy soft ass at the tender age of only 36! Oh, and the skin on my knees was sagging. I was like, “Seriously? My knees?… WTF, am I suddenly 80?” Overall, I was looking way too old for my age. I kept wondering how that was possible when my family history didn’t support that (both sides aged with good skin), plus, HELLO(!), I was eating such an antioxidant-rich vegan diet… so what was wrong with me?
Nausea. And, the bloating. I can’t tell you how many times I complained to Greg about feeling nauseous after eating or saying “I feel so fat” from the bloat I had even though I was only weighing 117. Again, I never dreamed it was my diet. In hindsight, I wonder if being a long term vegan contributed to low stomach acid which could explain these things. Or, perhaps it was the vegan food such as grains and legumes, which can be hard to digest.
Lastly, my cupboard was becoming a pharmacy of supplements as I tried to keep my family’s intake of nutrients balanced, but which probably was even more unbalanced as I took many supplements in isolation. I became increasingly leery of this because I knew intuitively that the best nutrients are found in real whole foods… not isolated in supplements. Not to mention, it had become a monthly line item on the household budget comparable to a car payment.

....[SNIP]...
Here are a few things that concerned me about our vegan diet, but I didn’t realize it until a few months ago:


Nuts and seed oils (as well as grains) can be high sources of omega six fatty acids, which can be a problem especially when my diet wasn’t a strong source of omega three fatty acids in spite of my consumption of hemp, chia, and supplements. For example, eating a vegan burrito (or even a sans-tortilla “bowl”) at Chipotle was not a great choice like I had thought it was. There is refined soybean oil in about everything Chipotle makes. And, don’t get me started on the tortilla (see number 3 below). Another example: Eating loads of nut-filled raw brownies was not great either. I’m not saying raw chocolate brownies are completely bad, but in hindsight, it’s not as innocent as I once believed, especially when scarfing down several at a time or if I was eating all raw all the time. I realize that a lot of people eating “exclusively raw” might not have the issue of inflammatory omega six refined oils, but most people aren’t exclusively raw. And, even if you are raw, there’s a lot of omega six fatty acids in a raw diet while lacking quality omega three fatty acids to balance it out. As I was not usually all raw, once I started looking closer at the vegan foods I was eating, I was pretty shocked at what I found.
Drinking all of those protein shakes because I craved protein. I became curious as to why I was even craving protein, not to mention the possible consequences of consuming a powdered and concentrated food like that with warnings of metal contaminants, etc. A protein shake here and there, no biggie, but to have it much more often than that because we were trying to add protein to our diet is another deal altogether. (Why did it take me so long to realize this???)
Um, gluten is the devil. ‘Nuff said.
Retinol is important for so much including pregnancy, fertility, breastfeeding. And beta-carotene will not cut it – at least not for my family. (This one alone probably pisses me off the most because retinol is only in animal foods. You never hear vegans warn about it like they do B12, and who knows the problems I caused my family by avoiding it.)
Iodine and my lack of it from not eating fish (and mostly gagging at sea veggies) was not good. And on top of that… consuming massive quantities of crucifers (daily juicing, anyone?) might have negatively affected my thyroid, which could alter many things including fertility. Honestly, I knew crucifers could be problems for people with thyroid issues but I presumed my thyroid was in top shape. Who knows what potential damage I was doing to my thyroid gorging on so many green juices, green smoothies, green powders, and kale salads, and not balancing it with enough iodine-rich foods.
Important nutrients were missing (fat soluble nutrients, choline, etc), and supplements weren’t cutting it. I sure tried though. I’ve learned a lot over the months regarding the importance of fat soluble vitamins, the source of them, the absurdly complex ways that they interplay with each other for optimal health, how they are important for other nutrients that aren’t fat soluble, and — bottom line — how much easier and better it is to get them from foods instead of trying to add them through isolation in my diet. At the risk of flogging myself too much for one blog post, I just can’t believe I didn’t consider this stuff before.
Cholesterol is not the devil. This alone flipped my worldview upside down when we learned more about cholesterol. Do you know I had a cholesterol reading once a few years ago that was 95?! And, to think I bragged about that. I’m ashamed of that now.
Soy, always a bit iffy, now seriously scares the crap out of me, no matter what form.
I questioned the amount of grains and legumes we had in our diet and how it contributed to our problems. Not only are they an inferior source of nutrients (especially for a growing child like Kamea), but they increase the overall sugar load in the body and I was eating a lot as a result of increased hunger due to pregnancy, breastfeeding, being active, and basically not being nourished. (The degree to which legumes are problematic for human digestion continues to be hotly debated and researched as you read this.)

....


Other links that say the similar things:

http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

http://alexandrajamieson.com/im-not-vegan-anymore/

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psychology/health_psychology/vegan.htm

[tailfins]

Seeing this makes me sad and not want to eat eggs anymore, which I am a huge fan of (eating eggs). The smaller farms I have visited and known the farmers, they just don't do this. "Family" farmers won't needlessly slaughter animals. Seeing little chicks discarded like that is horrible. I wish there was something they could do with them so that their lives aren't snuffed out. Kinda like seeing tens of dogs at the shelter and feeling helpless. I honestly don't know what else they could do with the male chicks. But I do know that someone out there has a heart made out of chewed up bubble gum if they are able to kill these cute little fellas.

I know I'll never stop eating meat or eggs, but often I feel super guilty and know I'm a hypocrite. I've always said the same thing - I know I'm a hypocrite and I'd rather remain ignorant of anything that happens prior to me going into Stop and Shop for my groceries.

I flat don't give a crap and eat what I dern well please. Foie Gras anyone?

[Kathianne]

These are not necessarily battery produced eggs, those pics could be from the most free-range, organic, lion stamped farm in the country. Thats the point!
ANY EGGS you buy from Tescos or Sainsburys have gone through this process. ANY.

The egg industry make you think you can make the 'right choice' by reading a label or seeing a stamp, but that is just not the case.

Unless of course one sees humans as a step or two or more above chicken or duck or goose eggs or meat. Hey, I'm all for 'humane' but bottom line, those birds and cows, and fowl, etc., are below us on the food chain. Why? Ask them, see their response.

I'm all for boycotting those animals kept on top of one another, but really haven't a problem with those left 'wild' for weeks, then slaughtered. Sorry for you tenderness, but really do believe in an hierarchy of sorts.

[KitchenKitten99]

I flat don't give a crap and eat what I dern well please. Foie Gras anyone?

I'll take a small piece, grilled then placed on a well-seared, medium-cooked duck breast, thank you!

[DragonStryk72]

These are not necessarily battery produced eggs, those pics could be from the most free-range, organic, lion stamped farm in the country. Thats the point!
ANY EGGS you buy from Tescos or Sainsburys have gone through this process. ANY.

The egg industry make you think you can make the 'right choice' by reading a label or seeing a stamp, but that is just not the case.

I shop Farmer's Markets, of which most are humane smaller farmers. The key is to stay away from the larger producers, because it's in the mass production, where everything goes to hell in a handbasket. This is *also* why I switched over from Taco Bell to Chipotle, because they not only use fresh produce, but they operate with smaller diary farms and ranches that actually raise their cattle well, as opposed to operating a chop shop. So, the cows get to go out and be cows, the pigs get to be pigs, and so on.

On of the big issues we have here is how consolidated our food industry really is. The breadbasket states produce an incredible amount of our food, both cattle and produce. With increasing numbers of Americans, this leads to most being unaware of where their food is coming from or how it's made.