Win the war on terror while defending Islam

[tailfins]

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. When people like Jafar say people who claim to be Muslims aren't real Muslims if they commit atrocities, what if Uncle Sam hunts down and kills these fake Muslims plus their associates, thereby purifying the Muslim faith? How does this sound to everybody?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. When people like Jafar say people who claim to be Muslims aren't real Muslims if they commit atrocities, what if Uncle Sam hunts down and kills these fake Muslims plus their associates, thereby purifying the Muslim faith? How does this sound to everybody?
Sounds like a great plan.
That is until it is implemented, then suddenly the Dems/libs and leftists crap their pants from fear that Muslims may just get angry!!!
As if the murdering bastards aren't already!!
These people that think like this should themselves be eliminated IMHO.., that or else re-education by having a damn good swift and hard kick in the ass every day of the week and twice on Sundays!!!!! -Tyr

[jafar00]

I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. When people like Jafar say people who claim to be Muslims aren't real Muslims if they commit atrocities, what if Uncle Sam hunts down and kills these fake Muslims plus their associates, thereby purifying the Muslim faith? How does this sound to everybody?

It's better to put down the guns, and educate people about Islam instead.

If the general populace is educated about Islam, they can't be led astray by bad people.

[Nukeman]

It's better to put down the guns, and educate people about Islam instead.

If the general populace is educated about Islam, they can't be led astray by bad people.
Well Than Jafar why don't you and your brethren do just that????????????????? You are so quick to demonize the US as setting up these terrorist and blaming everything on the west when your own house has such a high illiteracy rate its laughable. 6 out of 10 Muslims can not read and you think that is the fault of the West??? You and your ilk always blame others yet refuse to see yourselves for what you are.. Uneducated easily lead cattle!!!


Fifty-seven Muslim majority countries have an average of ten universities each for a total of less than 600 universities for 1.4 billion people; India has 8,407 universities, the U.S. has 5,758.
. . .
Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent.[4] (http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Education_and_Employment#cite_note-Dr_Farrukh_Saleem-4)

[Gaffer]

It's better to put down the guns, and educate people about Islam instead.

If the general populace is educated about Islam, they can't be led astray by bad people.

Put down the guns so the terrorists can have an easier time of it.

First we have to build schools and protect them. Then bring in teachers. And protect them. Then bring in the students and protect them. This isn't done by laying down guns.

Jafar even you could not walk safely in most muslim countries these days.

What's your opinion of girls being educated?

[jafar00]

Well Than Jafar why don't you and your brethren do just that????????????????? You are so quick to demonize the US as setting up these terrorist and blaming everything on the west when your own house has such a high illiteracy rate its laughable. 6 out of 10 Muslims can not read and you think that is the fault of the West??? You and your ilk always blame others yet refuse to see yourselves for what you are.. Uneducated easily lead cattle!!!

Put 2+2 together. If you spent 100s of billions on schools and campaigns of education instead of bombs, you could achieve a whole lot more.

Remember the campaign in Yemen a decade ago that had a 98% success rate in getting terrorists to renounce violence and return to Islam?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0204/p01s04-wome.html

That should have been embraced and expanded.



Jafar even you could not walk safely in most muslim countries these days.

Well, maybe not the ones where there have been wars and invasions lately :p


What's your opinion of girls being educated?

Personally, I'm all for it. Islam also fully supports and encourages girls to get an education and be successful.

[jimnyc]

Put 2+2 together. If you spent 100s of billions on schools and campaigns of education instead of bombs, you could achieve a whole lot more.

Remember the campaign in Yemen a decade ago that had a 98% success rate in getting terrorists to renounce violence and return to Islam?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0204/p01s04-wome.html

That should have been embraced and expanded.

Most Muslims don't even want foreigners coming to help with terrorists issues - why should anyone facilitate that kind of money to people that don't care if terrorism expands or not? Don't refuse help and call our country "the great satan" and then think we should spend billions educating others. That's like worldwide liberalism.

[Nukeman]

Put 2+2 together. If you spent 100s of billions on schools and campaigns of education instead of bombs, you could achieve a whole lot more.

Personally, I'm all for it. Islam also fully supports and encourages girls to get an education and be successful.WHY is this our problem or our burden to educate your unwashed masses?????? IF, as you say Islam is such a caring and loving religion why don't you and your brethren go and educate them. I mean seriously why are there so many mosques to get the message of hate out yet there are not enough to offer READING classes for all!?!?!?!?!

This is the BIG PINK ELEPHANT in the room of Islam. YOU (not you particularly or maybe), don't want to admit that you have a big issue of ignorance and evil men willing to exploit that. You would rather blame the US or someone else for your internal problems..

With all due respect Jafar why is it that the mosques seem to be able to get the message of hate out yet they truly do not offer the slightest class for EDUCATING the congregation (or whatever you call it). This is a problem that OUR money will NOT fix. In fact it takes very little money to offer classes in reading and writing. They only need to get to about a 3rd grade level to function normally... Yet your religion can't even handle that. By God they can learn to make bombs and blow shit up though can't they!?!?!?!?

[Nukeman]

Most Muslims don't even want foreigners coming to help with terrorists issues - why should anyone facilitate that kind of money to people that don't care if terrorism expands or not? Don't refuse help and call our country "the great satan" and then think we should spend billions educating others. That's like worldwide liberalism.
I can see the headlines now on Al-Jazeera that the "great satan" is trying to indoctrinate the masses in the evil ways of the West. How dare they we must crush them and destroy them before they can confuse and turn our poor children to their evil wicked ways!!!!!!!!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

It's better to put down the guns, and educate people about Islam instead.

If the general populace is educated about Islam, they can't be led astray by bad people.

How about educating hundreds of millions Muslims about Islam first!!!!!
For you contend that those are so ignorant of the Quran's true meanings in it's verses!
Do not keep blaming their ignorance on us and give them a damn pass as they murder in the name of Allah!!!
Tame your own before we end up having to nuke a few million of them!!!!
Or just incinerate both Mecca and Medina!!!
We have that ability and how do you square us having it if Allah favors only his chosen--the muslims!????

Ever figure out why Allah allowed Charles Martel to utter defeat/crush and humiliate such a huge and victorious Islamic army!????
Perhaps you should ponder that !--Tyr

[stevecanuck]

So, English speaking recent convert Jafar has it right, and all the life-long Arabic-speaking Muslims who belong to:

Abu Nidal Organization (ANO)
Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG)
Gama’a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group) (IG)
HAMAS
Harakat ul-Mujahidin (HUM)
Hizballah
Palestine Liberation Front (PLF)
Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ)
Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLF)
al-Qa’ida (AQ)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan (IMU)
Jaish-e-Mohammed (JEM)
Lashkar-e Tayyiba (LeT)
Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (AAMB)
Asbat al-Ansar (AAA)
al-Qaida in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM)
Jemaah Islamiya (JI)
Ansar al-Islam (AAI)
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG)
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (formerly al-Qa'ida in Iraq)
Islamic Jihad Union (IJU)
Harakat ul-Jihad-i-Islami/Bangladesh (HUJI-B)
al-Shabaab
Kata'ib Hizballah (KH)
al-Qa'ida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP)
Harakat ul-Jihad-i-Islami (HUJI)
Tehrik-e Taliban Pakistan (TTP)
Jundallah
Army of Islam (AOI)
Indian Mujahedeen (IM)
Jemaah Anshorut Tauhid (JAT)
Abdallah Azzam Brigades (AAB)
Ansar al-Dine (AAD)
al-Mulathamun Battalion
Ansar al-Shari'a in Benghazi
Ansar al-Shari'a in Darnah
Ansar al-Shari'a in Tunisia
Ansar Bayt al-Maqdis
al-Nusrah Front

have it wrong. Yeah, that makes so much sense.

[Drummond]

Put 2+2 together. If you spent 100s of billions on schools and campaigns of education instead of bombs, you could achieve a whole lot more.

In answering, this answer assumes that there is such a thing as 'moderate, peaceloving Islam' .... WHICH IS NOT CONCEDED. This said ... >>>

'Hundreds of billions', eh, Jafar ?

You want sums like this spent on schools and campaigns, NONE OF WHICH may achieve a thing ??

Maybe what WOULD be achieved, Jafar, is impoverishment of an economy thinking to spend such amounts ?? And for something not guaranteed to do any good ?

Besides which .. a core objective of Al Qaeda is to see to it that Western presences, Western so-called 'interference' is drastically lessened, if not eradicated altogether. If the US, or the US plus Western allies, tried such a thing ... my belief is that Al Qaeda would have been offered one massive recruitment opportunity !!

And, Jafar, try this suggestion out on the Taliban, who are virulently ANTI the establishment of schooling !!

No, Jafar. Any Western nation trying any of this out will only be aiding terrorist recruitment. Something you SHOULD, surely, be against ??

Why not start in a modest way, Jafar ... YOURSELF ? You are, reputedly, a much-travelled individual. Why not travel to the Gaza Strip and have a nice, cozy word with some Hamas thug busily strapping a bomb on to a child ?

After all ... you claim they've ditched their Charter .. right ? So, can there be a better time for you to make an attempt to reason with them ?:poke:

[DragonStryk72]

Well actually, the concept that many Muslims are not literate does factor in to how easy it is to lead them astray, but you have to break it down. US Muslims, while literate, have conformed to US education standards, in general, and it's the same for places like Australia.

when you get back to the ME, Muslims born and raised there, are being taught under theocratic government, with no separation of church and state. So basically, is militant Muslims are in power (such as in Iran, Iraq til recently, Saudi Arabia, and others), it filters directly down into the education of the young. As this has been going on for hundreds of years, it's pretty easy to see that their version of Islam have become skewed.

now, we had a similar issue with Judaism going into Christianity, around the time of Leviticus, when the dogmatic side of the religion gained prominence, and that book of the Bible is what precipitated Christ's coming. It was Jesus who came to put down the dogmatic intransigence of Leviticus, to lead us to Grace.

Islam does not have that, and so, the dogma has only gotten worse, with men twisting the words, or focusing only on certain passages that back them up to rule as they see fit.

So, while many muslims are literate, that's not the only qualifier to getting them to see how all this hatred is wrong.

[stevecanuck]

....it's pretty easy to see that their version of Islam have become skewed. It's tossed-off statements of 'fact' like this that I always try to capture and hurl back. Please explain how it's "easy to see".

[tailfins]

Well actually, the concept that many Muslims are not literate does factor in to how easy it is to lead them astray, but you have to break it down. US Muslims, while literate, have conformed to US education standards, in general, and it's the same for places like Australia.

when you get back to the ME, Muslims born and raised there, are being taught under theocratic government, with no separation of church and state. So basically, is militant Muslims are in power (such as in Iran, Iraq til recently, Saudi Arabia, and others), it filters directly down into the education of the young. As this has been going on for hundreds of years, it's pretty easy to see that their version of Islam have become skewed.

now, we had a similar issue with Judaism going into Christianity, around the time of Leviticus, when the dogmatic side of the religion gained prominence, and that book of the Bible is what precipitated Christ's coming. It was Jesus who came to put down the dogmatic intransigence of Leviticus, to lead us to Grace.

Islam does not have that, and so, the dogma has only gotten worse, with men twisting the words, or focusing only on certain passages that back them up to rule as they see fit.

So, while many muslims are literate, that's not the only qualifier to getting them to see how all this hatred is wrong.

I think the US should make it really simple: If you're part of a plan to harm the US, you are at war the the US and will be dealt with accordingly irrespective of your religion.

[logroller]

It's tossed-off statements of 'fact' like this that I always try to capture and hurl back. Please explain how it's "easy to see".
Hurl back eh? It speaks to your biased inability to consider alternatives that you don't challenge the following 'statement of fact'.

Most Muslims don't even want foreigners coming to help with terrorists issues ...

I mean, given the statistical facts, say 100,000 acts of terrorism in 10 years, assuming they are committed solely by the illiterate quarter of the Muslims who cannot read the Koran's passages like: Chapter 2, Verse 190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." (That's the kinda thing Islamists ignore, perverting the message)
But that still doesn't account for nearly 3/4 of the illiterate. So clearly, statistically speaking, nowhere near all illiterate Muslims are committing these transgressions. Them's The facts jack. I don't make that up and youre free to post facts which dispute mine but I'm little persuaded by your spamming of fringe sources as evidence of something to something that represents the majority of Muslims.

If you believe otherwise, put forth the hard facts that dispute it and not just spam. If spam was fact I'd have million$ from a Kenyan prince, huge muscles and dirt-cheap insurance--FYI, not everything you read on the net is factual. Reality differs greatly from what a hyperlink has to show. If you want to have an honest discussion that's greatly appreciated, but sniping is not a means of debate nor discovery. No doubt there's some hole in the wall muslim province that would disagree-- Ironic you'd find yourself in agreement with them, wouldn't you say? I think Niche said it best,


"It is precisely facts that do not exist, only interpretations."
"when you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares also unto you.",
and, to my esteemed members--


"Thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!"

[DragonStryk72]

It's tossed-off statements of 'fact' like this that I always try to capture and hurl back. Please explain how it's "easy to see".

Really? you can't see how theocratic governments run by religious zealots can go to bad places? Steve, did you even pass history in high school? I mean, seriously, there was a direct reason the founders threw in the separation of church and state thing, as well as the First Amendment.

I really feel bad for you if I have to explain how theocratic rule can skew perspective. I mean, seriously, the Crusades, The Thirty Years War, The Spanish Inquisitions, the religious rule of the Church of England, the list goes on. We grew out of it, yes, but a large part of that growth was the United States, because we were the first nation to have true religious freedom as a basic right of all people, specifically because our founders saw the dangers, and set out to protect the United States from it, such as with the separation of church and state.

A more direct point: Whenever you have a theocracy, it means that the holy book necessarily also becomes the law book. The problem with this, of course, is that most religious texts are written by philosophers, and not by lawyers. This is because religious texts are meant to be interpreted, not used as direct mandate. So what ends up happening is that whoever is in charge of said Theocracy generally ends up with final say on what that interpretation is, and that, of course, includes what is the accepted teachings for those growing up. This of course skews their understand of said religious texts, and the next ruler in turn, now biased, continues said bias, with each successive generation going more and more off to the side.

So, again, it's easy to see how it gets skewed. Now, are you seriously that inept, or are you just trying to play a game of gotcha?

[DragonStryk72]

I think the US should make it really simple: If you're part of a plan to harm the US, you are at war the the US and will be dealt with accordingly irrespective of your religion.

True, and if we would explain it like that, it would likely go a long way, but we instead declared War on Fear, an emotion. Then we skew the lines even more because of the manner in which we interact with the ME. Like, we get a clear threat, such as in Benghazi, and we do nothing. Meanwhile, we're talking about marching into Iran and Syria, who haven't done anything to us, and don't seem to have plans along those lines, and we keep slapping our ally Israel, even when other groups have "destroy Israel" right in their nation's charter. Even when we do deal with a present threat, we have no real game plan other than kicking the shit out of them, and then leaving.

Until we start acting in the ME in a manner that's consistent, I really don't think we're going to gain much traction there.

[jimnyc]

I mean, given the statistical facts, say 100,000 acts of terrorism in 10 years, assuming they are committed solely by the illiterate quarter of the Muslims who cannot read the Koran's passages like: Chapter 2, Verse 190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." (That's the kinda thing Islamists ignore, perverting the message)
But that still doesn't account for nearly 3/4 of the illiterate. So clearly, statistically speaking, nowhere near all illiterate Muslims are committing these transgressions. Them's The facts jack. I don't make that up and youre free to post facts which dispute mine but I'm little persuaded by your spamming of fringe sources as evidence of something to something that represents the majority of Muslims.

If you believe otherwise, put forth the hard facts that dispute it and not just spam. If spam was fact I'd have million$ from a Kenyan prince, huge muscles and dirt-cheap insurance--FYI, not everything you read on the net is factual. Reality differs greatly from what a hyperlink has to show. If you want to have an honest discussion that's greatly appreciated, but sniping is not a means of debate nor discovery. No doubt there's some hole in the wall muslim province that would disagree-- Ironic you'd find yourself in agreement with them, wouldn't you say? I think Niche said it best,


"It is precisely facts that do not exist, only interpretations."
"when you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares also unto you.",
and, to my esteemed members--


"Thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!"

I ALWAYS try and find mainstream sources to backup what I say, not blogs and not "fringe sources". If I find a source, and I can't get corroboration from a major source, often I won't post it. Nonetheless, "spamming"? IF I ever post a shaky source, it's VERY rare that I do so.

I won't continue in this particular thread, replying to someone who will dismiss things as spam or from an invalid source. But I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to have a one on one debate with you on a similar subject, if you like. What you quoted from me:


Most Muslims don't even want foreigners coming to help with terrorists issues ...

We can use this as part of the debate, the literacy rate, WHO in Islam actually fights the terrorists and who turns a blind eye and/or helps them, the millions and millions and millions who pervert the religion, those who indiscriminately kill using apostasy, adultery and blasphemy laws as excuses to kill...

Pick a subject in that area and lets handle this where the masses can decide if I'm "spamming" or not. And if you coward out - how about you post these links that show I'm "spamming", since you made the allegation.

[jimnyc]

This was Jafar's original post. He implied that the money we spend on wars was better spent on educating Muslims in these countries


It's better to put down the guns, and educate people about Islam instead.

If the general populace is educated about Islam, they can't be led astray by bad people.

I then replied, and pointed out that the overwhelming majority of Islamic countries don't want us anywhere near their countries. Even with countries that have terrorists within their borders, they don't want us coming to help.


Most Muslims don't even want foreigners coming to help with terrorists issues - why should anyone facilitate that kind of money to people that don't care if terrorism expands or not? Don't refuse help and call our country "the great satan" and then think we should spend billions educating others. That's like worldwide liberalism.

And then this is where you come in and claim I am spamming fringe resources. Since I didn't post a single link, this can only mean this was a preventative post, meant to deny any source I post before I even post it. I don't spam, I don't spam threads, I don't spam singular sources and I don't spam "fringe sources". The only time I "spam" is when people suddenly have difficulty comprehending what I post or when they have trouble finding a sound argument in return. But that hardly makes what I post "spam" nor the sources I use somehow wrong/bogus/invalid or "spam" as you state.

By the way - your entire reply had NOTHING to do with what I wrote - nothing at all. Not even the same subject of what I wrote about -which was Muslims not wanting any help from us. Some would say that posting unwanted and/or off topic posts within a thread is "spamming". Just sayin!


I mean, given the statistical facts, say 100,000 acts of terrorism in 10 years, assuming they are committed solely by the illiterate quarter of the Muslims who cannot read the Koran's passages like: Chapter 2, Verse 190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." (That's the kinda thing Islamists ignore, perverting the message)
But that still doesn't account for nearly 3/4 of the illiterate. So clearly, statistically speaking, nowhere near all illiterate Muslims are committing these transgressions. Them's The facts jack. I don't make that up and youre free to post facts which dispute mine but I'm little persuaded by your spamming of fringe sources as evidence of something to something that represents the majority of Muslims.

If you believe otherwise, put forth the hard facts that dispute it and not just spam. If spam was fact I'd have million$ from a Kenyan prince, huge muscles and dirt-cheap insurance--FYI, not everything you read on the net is factual. Reality differs greatly from what a hyperlink has to show. If you want to have an honest discussion that's greatly appreciated, but sniping is not a means of debate nor discovery. No doubt there's some hole in the wall muslim province that would disagree-- Ironic you'd find yourself in agreement with them, wouldn't you say? I think Niche said it best,


"It is precisely facts that do not exist, only interpretations."
"when you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares also unto you.",
and, to my esteemed members--


"Thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!"

[fj1200]

By the way - your entire reply had NOTHING to do with what I wrote - nothing at all.

I believe he was only quoting your post as an example of a "fact not hurled back" and not responding to you directly.

[jimnyc]

I believe he was only quoting your post as an example of a "fact not hurled back" and not responding to you directly.

Then why the accusations of spamming and spam sources and such?

[jimnyc]

I believe he was only quoting your post as an example of a "fact not hurled back" and not responding to you directly.

Also, the hurl back reply was directed to Steve, the rest of the reply was to me.

[fj1200]

Then why the accusations of spamming and spam sources and such?


Also, the hurl back reply was directed to Steve, the rest of the reply was to me.

I think that whole post was towards Steve but I could be wrong. Your post just got caught in the middle IMO.

[jimnyc]

I think that whole post was towards Steve but I could be wrong. Your post just got caught in the middle IMO.

I hope that's the case, and if so I publicly apologize for anyone reading my rant. But I take pride in my investigation skills and am always looking for multiple links/sources when it's a controversial topic. Sometimes I even look for more sources when I see someone else post a blog, or "jihadwatch" or another site labeled a "hate site". I know the usual denials and generally go out of my way to avoid hearing them, by finding "good" links before I tread forward with my argument. It gets tiring when people continually deny arguments based on the source - which is something they should deny the moment the source is used, not down the road. I've personally seen "someone" here deny a bad story about Islam because it came from a "bad site" - and that person did so without even reading the article, which clearly showed that the original article was from the associated press.

[Drummond]

Hurl back eh? It speaks to your biased inability to consider alternatives that you don't challenge the following 'statement of fact'.


I mean, given the statistical facts, say 100,000 acts of terrorism in 10 years, assuming they are committed solely by the illiterate quarter of the Muslims who cannot read the Koran's passages like: Chapter 2, Verse 190: "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors." (That's the kinda thing Islamists ignore, perverting the message)
But that still doesn't account for nearly 3/4 of the illiterate. So clearly, statistically speaking, nowhere near all illiterate Muslims are committing these transgressions. Them's The facts jack. I don't make that up and youre free to post facts which dispute mine but I'm little persuaded by your spamming of fringe sources as evidence of something to something that represents the majority of Muslims.

If you believe otherwise, put forth the hard facts that dispute it and not just spam. If spam was fact I'd have million$ from a Kenyan prince, huge muscles and dirt-cheap insurance--FYI, not everything you read on the net is factual. Reality differs greatly from what a hyperlink has to show. If you want to have an honest discussion that's greatly appreciated, but sniping is not a means of debate nor discovery. No doubt there's some hole in the wall muslim province that would disagree-- Ironic you'd find yourself in agreement with them, wouldn't you say? I think Niche said it best,


"It is precisely facts that do not exist, only interpretations."
"when you stare long enough into the abyss, the abyss stares also unto you.",
and, to my esteemed members--


"Thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!"

Is Muslim illiteracy necessarily to blame for Muslim terrorism ? You assume a lot by suggesting this as a cause for it.

OK, you can quote verses, take the view that if Muslims are not acting in accordance with them, then it may be misunderstanding, or lack of knowledge, of that material that's at fault. BUT ... is that the POINT ?

I've posted elsewhere on this only recently. But I suspect that you're failing to take into account the principle of ABROGATION in all of this.

The Quran, Hadiths ... these have what appear to be contradictory verses in them. One can essentially cherrypick a verse to promote one message or commandment, and ignore a countering verse added later.

It is the later verse which overrules the earlier one.

See this .....

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an


The verses on the left are the abrogated (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Abrogation) verses (Mansūkh) of the Qur'an (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an), while the verses on the right are the abrogating verses (Nāsikh).<center style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20.400001525878906px;">
The "Verse of the Sword" refers to Quran 9:5, and due to how many verses it abrogates (about 113),[1] (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#cite_note-1)[2] (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#cite_note-2) we will write "Verse of the Sword" in place of this verse:</center>But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Qur'an 9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)

<center style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 20.400001525878906px;">
Surah:
2 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_2) | 3 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_3) | 4 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_4) | 5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_5) | 6 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_6) | 7 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_7) | 8 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_8) | 9 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_9) | 10 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_10) | 11 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_11) | 13 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_13) | 15 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_15) | 16 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_16) | 17 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_17) | 19 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_19) | 20 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_20) | 22 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_22) | 23 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_23) | 24 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_24) | 25 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_25) | 26 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_26) | 27 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_27) | 28 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_28) | 29 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_29) | 30 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_30) | 31 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_31) |32 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_32) | 33 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_33) | 34 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_34) | 35 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_35) | 36 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_36) | 37 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_37) | 38 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_38) | 40 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_39) | 41 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_41) | 42 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_42) | 43 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_43) | 44 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_44) | 45 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_45) | 46 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_46) | 47 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_47) | 50 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_50) | 51 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_51) | 52 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_52) | 53 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_53) | 54 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_54) | 56 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_56) | 58 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_58) | 60 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_60) | 68 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_68) |70 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_70) | 73 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_73) | 74 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_74) | 75 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_75) | 76 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_76) | 80 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_80) | 81 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_81) | 86 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_86) | 88 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_88) | 95 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_95) | 103 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_103) | 109 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#Surah_109)
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<tbody>
<center>Surah 2 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Surah_002)</center>


Abrogated
(Mansūkh)

Abrogator
(Nāsikh)



2:3 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:3)
Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
9:103 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:103)
Take alms out of their property, you would cleanse them and purify them thereby, and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


2:62 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:62)
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
3:85 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-i-Imran_(The_Family_of_%27Imran,_The_House_of_%27Imr an)#3:85)
And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.


2:83 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:83)
And when We made a covenant with the children of Israel: You shall not serve any but Allah and (you shall do) good to (your) parents, and to the near of kin and to the orphans and the needy, and you shall speak to men good words and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate. Then you turned back except a few of you and (now too) you turn aside.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


2:109 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:109)
Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.
9:29 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:29)
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


2:115 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:115)
And Allah's is the East and the West, therefore, whither you turn, thither is Allah's purpose; surely Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.
2:144 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:144)
Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qiblah which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.


2:139 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:139)
Say: Do you dispute with us about Allah, and He is our Lord and your Lord, and we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds, and we are sincere to Him.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


2:158 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:158)
Surely the Safa and the Marwa are among the signs appointed by Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit (to it), there is no blame on him if he goes round them both; and whoever does good spontaneously, then surely Allah is Grateful, Knowing.
2:130 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:130)
And who forsakes the religion of Ibrahim but he who makes himself a fool, and most certainly We chose him in this world, and in the hereafter he is most surely among the righteous.


2:159 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:159)
Surely those who conceal the clear proofs and the guidance that We revealed after We made it clear in the Book for men, these it is whom Allah shall curse, and those who curse shall curse them (too).
2:160 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:160)
Except those who repent and amend and make manifest (the truth), these it is to whom I turn (mercifully); and I am the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.


2:178 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:178)
O you who believe! retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the slain, the free for the free, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female, but if any remission is made to any one by his (aggrieved) brother, then prosecution (for the bloodwit) should be made according to usage, and payment should be made to him in a good manner; this is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy; so whoever exceeds the limit after this he shall have a painful chastisement.
5:45 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:45)

17:33 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Isra_(The_Night_Journey)#17:33)
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.


And do not kill any one whom Allah has forbidden, except for a just cause, and whoever is slain unjustly, We have indeed given to his heir authority, so let him not exceed the just limits in slaying; surely he is aided.


2:180 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:180)
Bequest is prescribed for you when death approaches one of you, if he leaves behind wealth for parents and near relatives, according to usage, a duty (incumbent) upon those who guard (against evil).
4:7 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:7)

4:11 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:11)
Men shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, and women shall have a portion of what the parents and the near relatives leave, whether there is little or much of it; a stated portion.

Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.


2:183 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:183)

2:184 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:184)
O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you, that ye may (learn) self-restraint,

(Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed number (Should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (With hardship), is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more, of his own free will,- it is better for him. And it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.
2:185 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:185)
The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.


2:190 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:190)
And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)

9:36 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:36)
Verse of the Sword

Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheists all together as they fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).


2:191 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:191)

2:192 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:192)
And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


2:215 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:215)
They ask you as to what they should spend. Say: Whatever wealth you spend, it is for the parents and the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, and whatever good you do, Allah surely knows it.
9:60 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:60)
Alms are for the poor and the needy, and those employed to administer the (funds); for those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Truth); for those in bondage and in debt; in the cause of Allah; and for the wayfarer: (thus is it) ordained by Allah, and Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.


2:217 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:217)
They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


2:219 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:219)
They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder
4:43 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:43)

5:90 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:90)

9:103 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:103)
O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.

O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.

Take alms out of their property, you would cleanse them and purify them thereby, and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.


2:221 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:221)
And do not marry the idolatresses until they believe, and certainly a believing maid is better than an idolatress woman, even though she should please you; and do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you; these invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and to forgiveness by His will, and makes clear His communications to men, that they may be mindful.
5:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:5)
This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.


2:228 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:228)
And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
2:229 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:229)

2:230 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:230)
Divorce may be (pronounced) twice, then keep (them) in good fellowship or let (them) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any part of what you have given them, unless both fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah; then if you fear that they cannot keep within the limits of Allah, there is no blame on them for what she gives up to become free thereby. These are the limits of Allah, so do not exceed them and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah these it is that are the unjust.

So if he divorces her she shall not be lawful to him afterwards until she marries another husband; then if he divorces her there is no blame on them both if they return to each other (by marriage), if they think that they can keep within the limits of Allah, and these are the limits of Allah which He makes clear for a people who know.


2:234 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:234)
And (as for) those of you who die and leave wives behind, they should keep themselves in waiting for four months and ten days; then when they have fully attained their term, there is no blame on you for what they do for themselves in a lawful manner; and Allah is aware of what you do.
2:240 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:240)
And those of you who die and leave wives behind, (make) a bequest in favor of their wives of maintenance for a year without turning (them) out, then if they themselves go away, there is no blame on you for what they do of lawful deeds by themselves, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.


2:256 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:256)
There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


2:284 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:284)
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is Allah's; and whether you manifest what is in your minds or hide it, Allah will call you to account according to it; then He will forgive whom He pleases and chastise whom He pleases, and Allah has power over all things.
2:286 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:286)
Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.


2:285 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:285)
The messenger believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers; We make no difference between any of His messengers; and they say: We hear and obey, our Lord! Thy forgiveness (do we crave), and to Thee is the eventual course.
2:286 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Baqara_(The_Heifer)#2:286)
Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability; for it is (the benefit of) what it has earned and upon it (the evil of) what it has wrought: Our Lord! do not punish us if we forget or make a mistake; Our Lord! do not lay on us a burden as Thou didst lay on those before us, Our Lord do not impose upon us that which we have not the strength to bear; and pardon us and grant us protection and have mercy on us, Thou art our Patron, so help us against the unbelieving people.

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<small>Top of page ↑ (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an#top)</small>



<tbody>
<center>Surah 3 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Surah_003)</center>


Abrogated
(Mansūkh)

Abrogator
(Nāsikh)



3:20 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-i-Imran_(The_Family_of_%27Imran,_The_House_of_%27Imr an)#3:20)
But if they dispute with you, say: I have submitted myself entirely to Allah and (so) every one who follows me; and say to those who have been given the Book and the unlearned people: Do you submit yourselves? So if they submit then indeed they follow the right way; and if they turn back, then upon you is only the delivery of the message and Allah sees the servants.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)

33:50 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Ahzab_(The_Clans)#33:50)
Verse of the Sword

O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


3:28 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-i-Imran_(The_Family_of_%27Imran,_The_House_of_%27Imr an)#3:28)
Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
8:57 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anfal_(Spoils_Of_War,_Booty)#8:57)

9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)

51:55 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Adh-Dhariyat_(The_Winnowing_Winds)#51:55)
Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.

Verse of the Sword

And continue to remind, for surely the reminder profits the believers.


3:102 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-i-Imran_(The_Family_of_%27Imran,_The_House_of_%27Imr an)#3:102)
O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.
64:16 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taghabun_(Mutual_Disillusion)#64:16)
Therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah as much as you can, and hear and obey and spend, it is better for your souls; and whoever is saved from the greediness of his soul, these it is that are the successful.


3:111 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-i-Imran_(The_Family_of_%27Imran,_The_House_of_%27Imr an)#3:111)
They shall by no means harm you but with a slight evil; and if they fight with you they shall turn (their) backs to you, then shall they not be helped.
9:29 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:29)
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


3:145 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-i-Imran_(The_Family_of_%27Imran,_The_House_of_%27Imr an)#3:145)
And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him of it, and I will reward the grateful.
17:18 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Isra_(The_Night_Journey)#17:18)
Whoever desires this present life, We hasten to him therein what We please for whomsoever We desire, then We assign to him the hell; he shall enter it despised, driven away.


3:186 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-i-Imran_(The_Family_of_%27Imran,_The_House_of_%27Imr an)#3:186)
You shall certainly be tried respecting your wealth and your souls, and you shall certainly hear from those who have been given the Book before you and from those who are polytheists much annoying talk; and if you are patient and guard (against evil), surely this is one of the affairs (which should be) determined upon.
9:29 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:29)
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

</tbody>

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<tbody>
<center>Surah 4 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Surah_004)</center>


Abrogated
(Mansūkh)

Abrogator
(Nāsikh)



4:43 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:43)
O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath-- unless (you are) travelling on the road-- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
5:90 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:90)
O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan's work; shun it therefore that you may be successful.


4:63 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:63)
These are they of whom Allah knows what is in their hearts; therefore turn aside from them and admonish them, and speak to them effectual words concerning themselves.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


4:64 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:64)
And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.
9:80 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:80)
Ask forgiveness for them or do not ask forgiveness for them; even if you ask forgiveness for them seventy times, Allah will not forgive them; this is because they disbelieve in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the transgressing people.


4:71 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:71)
O you who believe! take your precaution, then go forth in detachments or go forth in a body.
9:122 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:122)
And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?


4:80 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:80)

4:81 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:81)
Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them.

And they say: Obedience. But when they go out from your presence, a party of them decide by night upon doing otherwise than what you say; and Allah writes down what they decide by night, therefore turn aside from them and trust in Allah, and Allah is sufficient as a protector.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


4:84 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:84)
Fight then in Allah's way; this is not imposed on you except In relation to yourself, and rouse the believers to ardor maybe Allah will restrain the fighting of those who disbelieve and Allah is strongest in prowess and strongest to give an exemplary punishment.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


4:90 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:90)

4:91 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:91)
Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.

You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


4:92 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:92)
And it does not behoove a believer to kill a believer except by mistake, and whoever kills a believer by mistake, he should free a believing slave, and blood-money should be paid to his people unless they remit it as alms; but if he be from a tribe hostile to you and he is a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (suffices), and if he is from a tribe between whom and you there is a convenant, the blood-money should be paid to his people along with the freeing of a believing slave; but he who cannot find (a slave) should fast for two months successively: a penance from Allah, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
9:1 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:1)
(This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.


4:140 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_An-Nisa_(Women)#4:140)
And indeed He has revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah's communications disbelieved in and mocked at do not sit with them until they enter into some other discourse; surely then you would be like them; surely Allah will gather together the hypocrites and the unbelievers all in hell.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword

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<tbody>
<center>Surah 5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Surah_005)</center>


Abrogated
(Mansūkh)

Abrogator
(Nāsikh)



5:2 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:2)
O you who believe! do not violate the signs appointed by Allah nor the sacred month, nor (interfere with) the offerings, nor the sacrificial animals with garlands, nor those going to the sacred house seeking the grace and pleasure of their Lord; and when you are free from the obligations of the pilgrimage, then hunt, and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Masjid-- incite you to exceed the limits, and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


5:13 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:13)
But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)

9:29 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:29)
Verse of the Sword

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


5:99 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:99)
Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message), and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword

</tbody>

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<tbody>
<center>Surah 6 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Surah_006)</center>


Abrogated
(Mansūkh)

Abrogator
(Nāsikh)



6:66 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:66)
And your people call it a lie and it is the very truth. Say: I am not placed in charge of you.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


6:68 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:68)
And when you see those who enter into false discourses about Our communications, withdraw from them until they enter into some other discourse, and if the Shaitan causes you to forget, then do not sit after recollection with the unjust people.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


6:70 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:70)
And leave those who have taken their religion for a play and an idle sport, and whom this world's life has deceived, and remind (them) thereby lest a soul should be given up to destruction for what it has earned; it shall not have besides Allah any guardian nor an intercessor, and if it should seek to give every compensation, it shall not be accepted from it; these are they who shall be given up to destruction for what they earned; they shall have a drink of boiling water and a painful chastisement because they disbelieved.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)

9:29 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:29)
Verse of the Sword

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


6:91 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:91)
And they do not assign to Allah the attributes due to Him when they say: Allah has not revealed anything to a mortal. Say: Who revealed the Book which Musa brought, a light and a guidance to men, which you make into scattered writings which you show while you conceal much? And you were taught what you did not know, (neither) you nor your fathers. Say: Allah then leave them sporting in their vain discourses.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


6:104 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:104)
Indeed there have come to you clear proofs from your Lord; whoever will therefore see, it is for his own soul and whoever will be blind, it shall be against himself and I am not a keeper over you.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


6:106 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:106)

6:107 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:107)

6:108 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:108)
Follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; there is no god but He; and withdraw from the polytheists.

And if Allah had pleased, they would not have set up others (with Him) and We have not appointed you a keeper over them, and you are not placed in charge of them.

And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


6:112 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:112)
And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forget.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


6:121 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:121)
And do not eat of that on which Allah's name has not been mentioned, and that is most surely a transgression; and most surely the Shaitans suggest to their friends that they should contend with you; and if you obey them, you shall most surely be polytheists.
5:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Maeda_(The_Repast)#5:5)
This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.


6:137 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:137)
And thus their associates have made fair seeming to most of the polytheists the killing of their children, that they may cause them to perish and obscure for them their religion; and if Allah had pleased, they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


6:159 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Anaam_(Cattle,_Livestock)#6:159)
Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword

</tbody>

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<tbody>
<center>Surah 7 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Surah_007)</center>


Abrogated
(Mansūkh)

Abrogator
(Nāsikh)



7:183 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Araf_(The_Heights)#7:183)
And I grant them respite; surely My scheme is effective.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword


7:199 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_Al-Araf_(The_Heights)#7:199)
Take to forgiveness and enjoin good and turn aside from the ignorant.
9:5 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_(Repentance)#9:5)
Verse of the Sword

</tbody>


This, Logroller, is just a SELECTION from the link I've provided !! Do you see the point ? Earlier, 'kindlier' verses are abrogated, ruled invalid, superseded, by later ones. Note that the 'Verse of the Sword' abrogates a whole lot of earlier material !!!

One such example ... Chapter 2, verse 190, which you yourself cite. Note that, from the above Table, THIS IS ABROGATED BY THE VERSE OF THE SWORD.

If you're really going to pin your faith in verses you like the look of, Logroller, be very certain that abrogation doesn't nullify their worth !

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml


In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience. Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed’s headquarters was based in Medina.

When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses. The chronological timing in which a verse was written determines its authority to establish policies within Islam.

[NightTrain]

Put 2+2 together. If you spent 100s of billions on schools and campaigns of education instead of bombs, you could achieve a whole lot more.

Remember the campaign in Yemen a decade ago that had a 98% success rate in getting terrorists to renounce violence and return to Islam?
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0204/p01s04-wome.html

That should have been embraced and expanded.

It's not our job to start educating your masses. There is untold trillions in the hands of muslims the world over, and it's up to you to finance the enormous islamic illiteracy problem.

Hell, Dubai by itself could fix your lack of education.

Why the hell should the American taxpayers fund another massive giveaway to millions that already hate us as we give billions to them in the form of aid? There is no nation on earth that has given so much as we have to other nations, and you want us to commit to an international muslim education effort that would mostly blow up in our face -- literally?

Let's not forget that many muzzie terrorists were college educated right here in America while taking advantage of grants and loans from America while on some form of welfare, also funded by American taxpayers. The end result was a smarter terrorist able to more efficiently kill the very infidels stupid enough to assist him in his goal to kill & maim.


Personally, I'm all for it. Islam also fully supports and encourages girls to get an education and be successful.

Unfortunately most muslim nations demonstrate that they think your notion of islam is wrong.

This may be due to your inability to translate Arabic on your own and are relying on muslims to tell you their interpretation. That's up to you to learn so you can decipher -- not mine.

In the meantime, the rest of the world will continue to judge your religion / culture by your actions.

[stevecanuck]

Really? you can't see how theocratic governments run by religious zealots can go to bad places? Steve, did you even pass history in high school? I mean, seriously, there was a direct reason the founders threw in the separation of church and state thing, as well as the First Amendment.

I really feel bad for you if I have to explain how theocratic rule can skew perspective. I mean, seriously, the Crusades, The Thirty Years War, The Spanish Inquisitions, the religious rule of the Church of England, the list goes on. We grew out of it, yes, but a large part of that growth was the United States, because we were the first nation to have true religious freedom as a basic right of all people, specifically because our founders saw the dangers, and set out to protect the United States from it, such as with the separation of church and state.

A more direct point: Whenever you have a theocracy, it means that the holy book necessarily also becomes the law book. The problem with this, of course, is that most religious texts are written by philosophers, and not by lawyers. This is because religious texts are meant to be interpreted, not used as direct mandate. So what ends up happening is that whoever is in charge of said Theocracy generally ends up with final say on what that interpretation is, and that, of course, includes what is the accepted teachings for those growing up. This of course skews their understand of said religious texts, and the next ruler in turn, now biased, continues said bias, with each successive generation going more and more off to the side.

So, again, it's easy to see how it gets skewed. Now, are you seriously that inept, or are you just trying to play a game of gotcha?

You said, "it's pretty easy to see that their version of Islam have become skewed.", and I asked you to explain why you think that. Your condescending non-sequitur above is nothing more than one big attempted deflection. Can you tell us how the militants got it wrong or not? I suspect not.

[stevecanuck]

Drummond, good job on the topic of abrogation, and not to put a damper on it, but I have decided to stop arguing that point because it can become too much of a distraction from what I consider to be the main points. The facts that I now focus on are: 1) regardless of how many 'peaceful' Muslims there are, there are more than enough militants to be a problem, and 2) they can point to verses of the Qur'an and the history of Mohamed and the first Muslims as justification for their actions. I don't see how either of those points can be disputed.

[tailfins]

Drummond, good job on the topic of abrogation, and not to put a damper on it, but I have decided to stop arguing that point because it can become too much of a distraction from what I consider to be the main points. The facts that I now focus on are: 1) regardless of how many 'peaceful' Muslims there are, there are more than enough militants to be a problem, and 2) they can point to verses of the Qur'an and the history of Mohamed and the first Muslims as justification for their actions. I don't see how either of those points can be disputed.

As a task oriented person, I see all this navel gazing about Islam as a distraction. America just needs to defend itself. If some good Muslims get killed as collateral damage, that just the fortunes of war.

[Drummond]

As a task oriented person, I see all this navel gazing about Islam as a distraction. America just needs to defend itself. If some good Muslims get killed as collateral damage, that just the fortunes of war.

The principle of taking on enemies of America on the basis that they deserve what's coming to them by simply BEING enemies seems totally fair to me. I neither fault it, nor want to. It serves as a perfectly reasonable yardstick.

That said ... don't you gain from understanding the nature of your enemies ? Consider the capacity for successful interrogation of a Gitmo detainee, for example, if your understanding of pressure points that can be applied is enhanced from just such an understanding ?

'Navel gazing about Islam', therefore, is a far from fruitless exercise ... and not least if you blind yourself to the threat it poses, and only properly wake up to the virulence of that threat when it's too late !! One can imagine a scenario, under less knowledgeable circumstances than is true now, where Islamists could've posed as friends to America, installed terrorist sleeper cells by the hundred, then suddenly you'd wonder how you became vulnerable to attacks from them !!

So ... NO. I say that 9/11 should've been one massive wake-up call, all possible efforts should've been made to learn about the nature of the threat, and from that understanding, the proper and most effective countering to the threat should result.

A practical illustration .... say, American Intelligence wanted to infiltrate some known groups, to undermine from within ? By NOT doing any of the proper preparation for the effort, by NOT seeking the necessary insights, you'd stymie the very effort you'd hope to gain from.

So what's left ? A merely semi-efficient grasp of the enemy and what it's about, coupled with a bunker mentality ??

Proper education, proper vigilance, all possible insights into your enemies ... why deny yourself any or all of that ? No .. the 'navel gazing' you speak of has a value, its own place in the scheme of things. It's by no means the totality of what's needed, but it DOES have a place in ensuring a maximum defensive capability -- I suggest.

Know your enemy. Know what drives it, know its psychology and how to be effective against it.

[red state]

Well said Drummond; I like what you finished with when you stated the importance of: "Know your enemy. Know what drives it, know its psychology and how to be effective against it."

But I would like to add the importance of another great martial philosophy: ".....to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women." This may be from a fictional character (CONAN the Barbarian) but our dear leader and other leftist scum/cowards would do well to apply this philosophy. If we'd adopt this ideology and hit our enemy as hard as they would love and hope to hit us (if they could) we'd have shorter wars and fewer of them......fewer enemies as well.

[DragonStryk72]

You said, "it's pretty easy to see that their version of Islam have become skewed.", and I asked you to explain why you think that. Your condescending non-sequitur above is nothing more than one big attempted deflection. Can you tell us how the militants got it wrong or not? I suspect not.

As opposed to your non-reponse, and now misquoting me? I mean, come on, man, if you're going to bother with putting quotations in, you need to at least actually quote me. Here, since you clearly need help:


when you get back to the ME, Muslims born and raised there, are being taught under theocratic government, with no separation of church and state. So basically, is militant Muslims are in power (such as in Iran, Iraq til recently, Saudi Arabia, and others), it filters directly down into the education of the young. As this has been going on for hundreds of years, it's pretty easy to see that their version of Islam have become skewed.


I still stand by that and backed it up, rather directly in fact. Now, again, do you have anything to contribute, or are you just trying to play gotcha? I see a lot of you throwing pithy one-liners, but no actual opinion of your own. That and sucking up to people who made actual, real posts, but again, no actual opinion of your own on the matter.

[DragonStryk72]

The principle of taking on enemies of America on the basis that they deserve what's coming to them by simply BEING enemies seems totally fair to me. I neither fault it, nor want to. It serves as a perfectly reasonable yardstick.

As may be, but they are the least capable enemy we've ever faced as a nation, but for some reason, we are absolutely terrified of them. I mean, seriously, it's like, "China? Eh, fine. Russia? Not a threat. A bunch of guys living in caves who get off a successful attack of about 1:20 times they go up for the attempt? KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE!"


That said ... don't you gain from understanding the nature of your enemies ? Consider the capacity for successful interrogation of a Gitmo detainee, for example, if your understanding of pressure points that can be applied is enhanced from just such an understanding ?

Um, gotta disagree with you here, seeing how the Gitmo detainees gave almost all useless information, either because they just told us what we wanted to hear, purposefully lied, really didn't know anything outside of their cell (Which is the whole point of cells), or simply had out of date information that was of no help anyway. I mean, we had whole threads here about the intel experts who were against the interrogation methods being used at Gitmo for those precise reasons.


'Navel gazing about Islam', therefore, is a far from fruitless exercise ... and not least if you blind yourself to the threat it poses, and only properly wake up to the virulence of that threat when it's too late !! One can imagine a scenario, under less knowledgeable circumstances than is true now, where Islamists could've posed as friends to America, installed terrorist sleeper cells by the hundred, then suddenly you'd wonder how you became vulnerable to attacks from them !!

Well, yes and no. It's always better to understand your enemy, but you also have to understand that most are not actually your enemy, even within an enemy country. We're only battling all of Islam if we choose to make them enemies, instead of fighting those who have actually attacked us. Think about it, we went after Saddam for WMDs, but really, would he have come after us with them? No, at most, he would've gone at Iran and Kuwait, who was harboring AQ cells at the time. It was a distraction from our hunt for Bin Laden, which should have taken far greater precedence.


So ... NO. I say that 9/11 should've been one massive wake-up call, all possible efforts should've been made to learn about the nature of the threat, and from that understanding, the proper and most effective countering to the threat should result.

But, we don't do that, instead we go, kick a ton of ass, and allow ourselves to get distracted. I mean, really, that was the exact reaction that Bin Laden had been hoping for in the wake of 9/11, that we would be so pissed, we couldn't see straight. We've lost a lot of ground because of that, and we need to make it up. Some of that is learning how to show the rational people in the ME that we aren't enemies, and don't need to be such.


A practical illustration .... say, American Intelligence wanted to infiltrate some known groups, to undermine from within ? By NOT doing any of the proper preparation for the effort, by NOT seeking the necessary insights, you'd stymie the very effort you'd hope to gain from.

So what's left ? A merely semi-efficient grasp of the enemy and what it's about, coupled with a bunker mentality ??

Proper education, proper vigilance, all possible insights into your enemies ... why deny yourself any or all of that ? No .. the 'navel gazing' you speak of has a value, its own place in the scheme of things. It's by no means the totality of what's needed, but it DOES have a place in ensuring a maximum defensive capability -- I suggest.

Know your enemy. Know what drives it, know its psychology and how to be effective against it.

But know yourself as well, including what lines you must not cross in your pursuit of your enemy, lest you start to descend to their level.

Jafar is correct, though. The best tactic we could use is to educate and uplift Islamic countries, to show them that it doesn't have to be the way it is now. Now, yeah, we need to go after those who have attacked us, but we need to specifically go after them, and take them down as above-board as we can accomplish. right now, we are using pure stick, with no carrot, and so we are seen purely as an aggressor.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

How about educating hundreds of millions Muslims about Islam first!!!!!
For you contend that those are so ignorant of the Quran's true meanings in it's verses!
Do not keep blaming their ignorance on us and give them a damn pass as they murder in the name of Allah!!!
Tame your own before we end up having to nuke a few million of them!!!!
Or just incinerate both Mecca and Medina!!!
We have that ability and how do you square us having it if Allah favors only his chosen--the muslims!????

Ever figure out why Allah allowed Charles Martel to utter defeat/crush and humiliate such a huge and victorious Islamic army!????
Perhaps you should ponder that !--Tyr

^^^^^ This is the TRUTH that Jafar runs from IMHO.
He does so by totally ignoring such hard questions!!!!
For he can find no logical answer nor can he even find a good way to spin it enough ! That's when one knows he consciously denies truth thus it is a deliberate agenda he partakes in to deceive the infidels IMHO..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Is Muslim illiteracy necessarily to blame for Muslim terrorism ? You assume a lot by suggesting this as a cause for it.

OK, you can quote verses, take the view that if Muslims are not acting in accordance with them, then it may be misunderstanding, or lack of knowledge, of that material that's at fault. BUT ... is that the POINT ?

I've posted elsewhere on this only recently. But I suspect that you're failing to take into account the principle of ABROGATION in all of this.

The Quran, Hadiths ... these have what appear to be contradictory verses in them. One can essentially cherrypick a verse to promote one message or commandment, and ignore a countering verse added later.

It is the later verse which overrules the earlier one.

See this .....

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Abrogations_in_the_Qur%27an



This, Logroller, is just a SELECTION from the link I've provided !! Do you see the point ? Earlier, 'kindlier' verses are abrogated, ruled invalid, superseded, by later ones. Note that the 'Verse of the Sword' abrogates a whole lot of earlier material !!!

One such example ... Chapter 2, verse 190, which you yourself cite. Note that, from the above Table, THIS IS ABROGATED BY THE VERSE OF THE SWORD.

If you're really going to pin your faith in verses you like the look of, Logroller, be very certain that abrogation doesn't nullify their worth !

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml


[/FONT][/COLOR]

Just ask Jafar, all true muslims know which verses are there to deceive infidels!!! And which are their to use to pretend Islam is not more about murder and power than it is religion or man's salvation..

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

As may be, but they are the least capable enemy we've ever faced as a nation, but for some reason, we are absolutely terrified of them. I mean, seriously, it's like, "China? Eh, fine. Russia? Not a threat. A bunch of guys living in caves who get off a successful attack of about 1:20 times they go up for the attempt? KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE!"



Um, gotta disagree with you here, seeing how the Gitmo detainees gave almost all useless information, either because they just told us what we wanted to hear, purposefully lied, really didn't know anything outside of their cell (Which is the whole point of cells), or simply had out of date information that was of no help anyway. I mean, we had whole threads here about the intel experts who were against the interrogation methods being used at Gitmo for those precise reasons.



Well, yes and no. It's always better to understand your enemy, but you also have to understand that most are not actually your enemy, even within an enemy country. We're only battling all of Islam if we choose to make them enemies, instead of fighting those who have actually attacked us. Think about it, we went after Saddam for WMDs, but really, would he have come after us with them? No, at most, he would've gone at Iran and Kuwait, who was harboring AQ cells at the time. It was a distraction from our hunt for Bin Laden, which should have taken far greater precedence.



But, we don't do that, instead we go, kick a ton of ass, and allow ourselves to get distracted. I mean, really, that was the exact reaction that Bin Laden had been hoping for in the wake of 9/11, that we would be so pissed, we couldn't see straight. We've lost a lot of ground because of that, and we need to make it up. Some of that is learning how to show the rational people in the ME that we aren't enemies, and don't need to be such.



But know yourself as well, including what lines you must not cross in your pursuit of your enemy, lest you start to descend to their level.

Jafar is correct, though. The best tactic we could use is to educate and uplift Islamic countries, to show them that it doesn't have to be the way it is now. Now, yeah, we need to go after those who have attacked us, but we need to specifically go after them, and take them down as above-board as we can accomplish. right now, we are using pure stick, with no carrot, and so we are seen purely as an aggressor.

Only three of the many murdering terrorist scum at Gitmo were ever water-boarded. The Gitmo bastards have an average of 1.7 doctors per prisoner for their medical care while our own veterans have 1 doctor for ever 35 patients!!!!
Now tell me who is getting treated good and who is getting shafted big time.
It is not about what we can do for them as they just don't give a damn about that!!!!
They want us dead, enslaved or converted!!! Three damn ffing choices none of which I want or will ever stand for!
All these damn talking points about appeasing them, helping them, educating them are just pure ffing shit!!!
Just like the damn Nazis we must kill' em until they stop!
Only other choice is just lay down and die ourselves!!
Sooner we face that pure TRUTH the better IMHO..
And not you or I know what information was gathered nor how many or how large attacks it may have aided us in stopping.--Tyr

[jafar00]

Jafar is correct, though. The best tactic we could use is to educate and uplift Islamic countries, to show them that it doesn't have to be the way it is now. Now, yeah, we need to go after those who have attacked us, but we need to specifically go after them, and take them down as above-board as we can accomplish. right now, we are using pure stick, with no carrot, and so we are seen purely as an aggressor.

Well said. For every innocent person killed going after a terrorist, you create 10 more enemies and creates sympathy for those who twist young minds into joining them.

You can really pull the rug out from under the terrorists by educating the people about Islam so the next time a Taliban comes along pretending to know it all, they can turn around and tell him where he is actually going wrong.

[logroller]

Is Muslim illiteracy necessarily to blame for Muslim terrorism ? You assume a lot by suggesting this as a cause for it.
Well I didn't suggest it was the cause; another did-- I showed that it was, statistically speaking a very weak correlation. I've posted similarly previously, demonstrating that there are those, yourself included who are averse to such logical facts --preferring instead the emotional draw of fear, pride and anger.


OK, you can quote verses, take the view that if Muslims are not acting in accordance with them, then it may be misunderstanding, or lack of knowledge, of that material that's at fault. BUT ... is that the POINT ?
Let's just stick to the facts here brother-- I quoted one verse, not verses. And so far as what laundry list of views you think I hold let me just stop you right there. I'm of the belief that a work (word) of God perfects itself-- it doesn't contradict itself. Such is evidence only of the weakness of man to comprehend and this is in no way limited to Muslims or the illiterate. The POINT is that throughout time and place, beginning with genesis itself, man has perverted, if not ignored outright that which was perfect. You can google abrogation and screen bomb the results, as can I-- but have you read that scripture with an open heart, free of contempt and prayed for the answers?
Something tells me you haven't. That you haven't accepted the unmerited favor that is God's grace. For if you had that faith in the Almighty you would rather share that good news rather than the evil news of Islam.

[jimnyc]

Jafar is correct, though. The best tactic we could use is to educate and uplift Islamic countries, to show them that it doesn't have to be the way it is now. Now, yeah, we need to go after those who have attacked us, but we need to specifically go after them, and take them down as above-board as we can accomplish. right now, we are using pure stick, with no carrot, and so we are seen purely as an aggressor.

We don't do enough to educate in our own country. And we also have our own economy issues. Maybe in a perfect world, and we had endless money, this might be a good "tactic", but in reality, and the way the Islamic world feels about the USA, I wouldn't spend a nickel on educating any of those countries. The truth of the matter is, pick mostly any country, we can send in 1,000 teachers and $1 billion dollars with them. How long before they start being attacked left and right? Of course you could send JUST money, but we see how that works out.

[red state]

...and what I said below applies to ALL our enemies (foreign, abroad and including the broad who opens her big stupid mouth representing the ignorance and dangers of our enemies on/of the left every, single time she opens her big, stupid mouth).___________________________________________ ________________________________________
Well said Drummond; I like what you finished with when you stated the importance of: "Know your enemy. Know what drives it, know its psychology and how to be effective against it." But I would like to add the importance of another great martial philosophy: ".....to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentations of their women." This may be from a fictional character (CONAN the Barbarian) but our dear leader and other leftist scum/cowards would do well to apply this philosophy. If we'd adopt this ideology and hit our enemy as hard as they would love and hope to hit us (if they could) we'd have shorter wars and fewer of them......fewer enemies as well.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

...and what I said below applies to ALL our enemies (foreign, abroad and including the broad who opens her big stupid mouth representing the ignorance and dangers of our enemies on/of the left every, single time she opens her big, stupid mouth).___________________________________________ ________________________________________

Amen brother!!!!
Great to see ya posting here my friend..-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well I didn't suggest it was the cause; another did-- I showed that it was, statistically speaking a very weak correlation. I've posted similarly previously, demonstrating that there are those, yourself included who are averse to such logical facts --preferring instead the emotional draw of fear, pride and anger.


Let's just stick to the facts here brother-- I quoted one verse, not verses. And so far as what laundry list of views you think I hold let me just stop you right there. I'm of the belief that a work (word) of God perfects itself-- it doesn't contradict itself. Such is evidence only of the weakness of man to comprehend and this is in no way limited to Muslims or the illiterate. The POINT is that throughout time and place, beginning with genesis itself, man has perverted, if not ignored outright that which was perfect. You can google abrogation and screen bomb the results, as can I-- but have you read that scripture with an open heart, free of contempt and prayed for the answers?
Something tells me you haven't. That you haven't accepted the unmerited favor that is God's grace. For if you had that faith in the Almighty you would rather share that good news rather than the evil news of Islam.









And while you pray and share the message of Salvation kindly consider this from me....
It is not Christian to let others be harmed due to their ignorance. Thus your condemnation of truth of the evils of Islam is both wrong and ill-serving advice IMHO..

The fact that you refuse to see or else simply can not see that Islam denies Christ's divinity and he message delivering Salvation alarms me
and leads me to suggest you to ask for guidance on this...
Jesus did not ignore nor did he instruct to ignore the enemies of righteousness and the word of his FATHER, instead as is so easily seen in his actions taken in cleaning out the money-changers in the Temple.
That is just one glaring example to disputes your words ..
If you want to debate the point start a thread in the ethics/religion forum here . I may be able to find the time to contribute a few gems to help ya there ...

Islam seeks to destroy ALL OF CHRISTIANITY AND YOUR WORDS ARE TO IGNORE IT AND NOT WARN OTHERS!!! I find that ridiculously false and shallow advice ..
Ask yourself why Jesus did not JUST leave it up to God to deal with the money changers in the temple...

Do you think it prudent and Christian to not warn others of a great trap/pitfall !????-Tyr

[stevecanuck]

As opposed to your non-reponse, and now misquoting me? I mean, come on, man, if you're going to bother with putting quotations in, you need to at least actually quote me. Here, since you clearly need help:




I still stand by that and backed it up, rather directly in fact. Now, again, do you have anything to contribute, or are you just trying to play gotcha? I see a lot of you throwing pithy one-liners, but no actual opinion of your own. That and sucking up to people who made actual, real posts, but again, no actual opinion of your own on the matter.

Claiming with feigned bluster that you answered the question doesn't mean you did.

[Voted4Reagan]

9:29 (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Holy_Qur%27an:_At-Taubah_%28Repentance%29#9:29) Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.


** Explains the inflated sense of self importance most Muslims seem to have

[Abbey Marie]

It's better to put down the guns, and educate people about Islam instead.

If the general populace is educated about Islam, they can't be led astray by bad people.

Frankly, I don't want to know any more about a religion that stones women for adultery, and makes them walk around like virtual ghosts on a daily basis. No thanks. I just want it to go away.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Frankly, I don't want to know any more about a religion that stones women for adultery, and makes them walk around like virtual ghosts on a daily basis. No thanks. I just want it to go away.

That stones the women,, not the men!!!!!
Very important reality that puts light on its true message IMHO.
The message that Allah says the women are chattel, not much more than livestock to be treated as -PROPERTY!!!! --Tyr

[Drummond]

I see some worrying complacency here. Also some skewed perspectives.


As may be, but they are the least capable enemy we've ever faced as a nation, but for some reason, we are absolutely terrified of them. I mean, seriously, it's like, "China? Eh, fine. Russia? Not a threat. A bunch of guys living in caves who get off a successful attack of about 1:20 times they go up for the attempt? KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE!"

The 'least capable enemy', you say. Based on .... ??

How many of your skyscrapers in mainland US, to date, has China flattened ? Russia, ditto ?

Because we know that 'the bunch of guys living in caves' you refer to, HAVE managed that. Two, in New York, along with nearly 3,000 fatalities.

So, do you seriously believe that the group responsible DIDN'T deserve a very strong response ??

I'm not sure if I accept your ratio of 1:20 as accurate. For the purpose of this debate, though, I will accept it. So .. tell me .. can you not accept a likelihood of terrorist organisations such as Al Q launching 20 or more attacks ? By your reckoning, one will be successful. What if it turns out to be a 9/11 equivalent ??

Are you saying that one or more 9/11 - type attacks are acceptable, on the grounds of how many attempts terrorists have to make in order to succeed with one of them ??!?

My approach is simple, and has the virtue of being DESERVED. Simply, you bomb the guts out of each and every terrorist hideout, every stronghold of theirs, known to you. Doing that will do your enemies much damage. More, it'll throw them off balance, crippling their future capabilities ... UNLESS, of course, you allow complacency to take hold, underestimate your enemy as being 'inconsequential cave dwellers', and allow them to regroup and recover.

Do they deserve such a favour, DragonStryk ? Or do they deserve PAYBACK ?

Bear in mind, also, that the harder you hit them, the greater the likelihood of damaging their morale.


Um, gotta disagree with you here, seeing how the Gitmo detainees gave almost all useless information, either because they just told us what we wanted to hear, purposefully lied, really didn't know anything outside of their cell (Which is the whole point of cells), or simply had out of date information that was of no help anyway. I mean, we had whole threads here about the intel experts who were against the interrogation methods being used at Gitmo for those precise reasons.

... Er'm ... ALMOST all useless information ? So, some WAS OF USE ?? Tell me, did the 'useful' information save lives, or neutralise further attack capabilities ? DragonStryk, why would you turn your back on even sparse remedial intelligence-gathering ? Aren't the lives you may save worth saving ?

Besides, I suggest you check for yourself how it was that Osama bin Laden was located, and so subsequently killed. You should find that Gitmo interrogations played their part in that. Would you suggest that killing OBL had NO value ??

Isn't the real truth of resistance to the fact of those interrogations one of protest because certain squeamish sensibilities were 'offended' by it all ?

[Oh, and by the way: when bin Laden was found, was he living in a cave .. his comrades, ditto ? OR, were they located in a modern complex ?]

.. Cue some do-gooder Leftie to fight for their 'human rights' ... overlooking the human rights of your own countrymen ??


Well, yes and no. It's always better to understand your enemy, but you also have to understand that most are not actually your enemy, even within an enemy country.

And there's no likelihood that any of them could be recruited ? Or, used to shield the real enemy ?


We're only battling all of Islam if we choose to make them enemies, instead of fighting those who have actually attacked us. Think about it, we went after Saddam for WMDs, but really, would he have come after us with them? No, at most, he would've gone at Iran and Kuwait, who was harboring AQ cells at the time. It was a distraction from our hunt for Bin Laden, which should have taken far greater precedence.

... which, as I've said, was something aided by Gitmo interrogations !!!

But your conclusions aren't even borne out by history .. surely ?

DragonStryk, explain this. HOW WAS IT THAT 9/11 EVER HAPPENED ?

Consider this --



Al Qaeda formed before 9/11.
Al Qaeda set up terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, before 9/11.
Al Qaeda recruited terrorists to be trained at those camps - before 9/11.
Planning for 9/11 was undertaken .. before 9/11.


Then 9/11 ultimately happened, on that day.

THE WAR ON TERROR ONLY STARTED AFTER ALL OF THIS, AS A REACTION TO THE 9/11 ATTACKS.

So explain to me what 'terrible provocations', what attacks, what warfare against Islam and Islamists, was entered into by the US .. BEFORE the War on Terror.

You talk about making Islam your enemy .. but you refer to what's occurred AFTER 9/11, not BEFORE. All I've listed for Al Qaeda's activities, all its preparations, came from THEM initially, UNBIDDEN.

So let's keep some realistic focus. Islamic terrorists started all of this. America had a right to react. America had every right to act to neutralise that enemy, and to wage its War on Terror .. to rid the world of an emerging evil.


But, we don't do that, instead we go, kick a ton of ass, and allow ourselves to get distracted. I mean, really, that was the exact reaction that Bin Laden had been hoping for in the wake of 9/11, that we would be so pissed, we couldn't see straight.

Whether or not there's any truth to this, I suggest to you that bin Laden wouldn't have wanted his training camps to be flattened, his terrorist group decimated, driven out of Afghanistan and forced to decentralise and rebuild virtually from scratch !!!


We've lost a lot of ground because of that, and we need to make it up.

We disagree. I believe much good has been done. Flattening and decimating terrorist training facilities IS NO BAD THING.


Some of that is learning how to show the rational people in the ME that we aren't enemies, and don't need to be such.

Covered already. 9/11 wasn't caused by US enemy action. 9/11 was an unbidden attack. Supposing that those responsible for 9/11 didn't CHOOSE to be the enemies they were, and are, is the worst form of escapism, and indulging in it means that you're setting yourself up for a rerun of the same historical error.


But know yourself as well, including what lines you must not cross in your pursuit of your enemy, lest you start to descend to their level.

The flipside of this is that you do your enemy favours it doesn't deserve, and from which it will gain. Pull your punches .. and help your enemy fight you. This should not be an acceptable outcome.


Jafar is correct, though. The best tactic we could use is to educate and uplift Islamic countries, to show them that it doesn't have to be the way it is now.

BUT THEY MADE THE CHOICES THEY DID. UNBIDDEN.

Any mass attempt to 'educate' would, even by Jafar's reckoning, cost you hundreds of billions of dollars. Your country, as rich as it is, still cannot afford to spend such sums, especially as such an effort has no guarantee of success, and could be wholly wasted.

A bunch of subhuman thugs decide to attack you. Is it fair that you should pay an enormous monetary cost to TRY to educate people who probably don't WANT that education ? And more ... SINCE AL QAEDA EXISTS, IT SAYS, TO REMOVE WESTERN INFLUENCES IN THE MIDDLE EAST .. AREN'T YOU JUST ENCOURAGING RECRUITMENT TO THEIR 'RANKS' ?


Now, yeah, we need to go after those who have attacked us, but we need to specifically go after them, and take them down as above-board as we can accomplish. right now, we are using pure stick, with no carrot, and so we are seen purely as an aggressor.

You were not an 'aggressor', pre-9/11, yet despite that, an entire terrorist network was created and was thriving, regardless.

AND YOU ARE NOT AN AGGRESSOR NOW; YOU ARE FIGHTING AGGRESSORS.

[Drummond]

Frankly, I don't want to know any more about a religion that stones women for adultery, and makes them walk around like virtual ghosts on a daily basis. No thanks. I just want it to go away.
:clap::clap::clap::clap:

[tailfins]

Frankly, I don't want to know any more about a religion that stones women for adultery, and makes them walk around like virtual ghosts on a daily basis. No thanks. I just want it to go away.

And I don't want to know any more about a religion that denies Jesus Christ as the ONLY way, the truth and the life. As far as I'm concerned one apostate religion is the same as any other. Why waste time on what's counterfeit when you can enjoy what's authentic?

[jafar00]

And I don't want to know any more about a religion that denies Jesus Christ as the ONLY way, the truth and the life. As far as I'm concerned one apostate religion is the same as any other. Why waste time on what's counterfeit when you can enjoy what's authentic?

Well, we have a whole chapter on Jesus in the Qur'aan and we love him as he was one of God's most beloved Prophets and he was a better Muslim than any of us alive today could ever hope to be.

[DragonStryk72]

We don't do enough to educate in our own country. And we also have our own economy issues. Maybe in a perfect world, and we had endless money, this might be a good "tactic", but in reality, and the way the Islamic world feels about the USA, I wouldn't spend a nickel on educating any of those countries. The truth of the matter is, pick mostly any country, we can send in 1,000 teachers and $1 billion dollars with them. How long before they start being attacked left and right? Of course you could send JUST money, but we see how that works out.

Well, as long as we're going to be spending billions and billions of dollar to have troops over there, and jumping into the conflicts that are just going to keep cropping up, losing thousands of lives of our own people along the way, I don't the issue with trying to educate out the need for us to spend billions of dollars to keep jumping into the conflicts.

Some of it goes back to our rampantly inconsistent mode of dealing with the ME, which is the first thing we need to correct if we are to make any headway on the point.

[jimnyc]

Well, as long as we're going to be spending billions and billions of dollar to have troops over there, and jumping into the conflicts that are just going to keep cropping up, losing thousands of lives of our own people along the way, I don't the issue with trying to educate out the need for us to spend billions of dollars to keep jumping into the conflicts.

Some of it goes back to our rampantly inconsistent mode of dealing with the ME, which is the first thing we need to correct if we are to make any headway on the point.

How about the entire world pony up the billions to help educate? While I can get on board with less troops and some more $ - without the atrocities, let the entire world pitch in, and that includes some of the Muslim oil guys who's net worth is worth 3 zillion of each of us.

Just as the USA shouldn't be the only country who cares about terrorism run amok, we shouldn't be the only ones interested in the betterment of others.

[Gaffer]

Well, as long as we're going to be spending billions and billions of dollar to have troops over there, and jumping into the conflicts that are just going to keep cropping up, losing thousands of lives of our own people along the way, I don't the issue with trying to educate out the need for us to spend billions of dollars to keep jumping into the conflicts.

Some of it goes back to our rampantly inconsistent mode of dealing with the ME, which is the first thing we need to correct if we are to make any headway on the point.

Most of the problems today stem from this administrations foreign policy. He's spending billions and no troops and so we have iraq.

iran is about to start making nukes (if they haven't already) which is a direct threat to this country.

The taliban are now launching attacks in pakistan as well as afghan.

boko haram is on a mass killing spree that if left unchecked will rival the kymer rouge.

Want more? All it takes is the US to not do anything and deal with terrorists to get everyone confident they can do anything they want. Like a bunch of children in a single parent home being told by their mother, you wait till your father gets home.

Then we have our own wannabe tyrant trying to undermine everything in this country so he can eventually usurp authority from congress and become the first dictator of the US. There's another BIG world war coming and the root cause is liberalism.

[logroller]

And while you pray and share the message of Salvation kindly consider this from me....
It is not Christian to let others be harmed due to their ignorance. Thus your condemnation of truth of the evils of Islam is both wrong and ill-serving advice IMHO..
Who is it that offers condemnation? Might want to take that log out of your eye.

Matthew said 'do not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul but fear He who can destroy the body and soul in hell' the truth is the light of The Lord Jesus Christ, not the evils of Islam. You've stared long enough into the abyss Tyr; seek the truth of God.



The fact that you refuse to see or else simply can not see that Islam denies Christ's divinity and he message delivering Salvation alarms me
It doesn't alarm me that Islam denies such. I'm saved through faith; not opposition to non-Christians. God loves us just the way we are, not by our works. The glory is His alone and denouncing others' beliefs does not glorify Him.



and leads me to suggest you to ask for guidance on this...
Jesus did not ignore nor did he instruct to ignore the enemies of righteousness and the word of his FATHER, instead as is so easily seen in his actions taken in cleaning out the money-changers in the Temple.
That is just one glaring example to disputes your words ..
If you want to debate the point start a thread in the ethics/religion forum here . I may be able to find the time to contribute a few gems to help ya there ...
This thread is in religion/ethics forum. Not that it matters. I can point to hundreds of posts that discuss theologies that aren't in the religion forum. I'll address the money-changers in a sec.



Islam seeks to destroy ALL OF CHRISTIANITY AND YOUR WORDS ARE TO IGNORE IT AND NOT WARN OTHERS!!! I find that ridiculously false and shallow advice ..
What you ridicule is faith. True faith that the devil himself cannot destroy, let alone man. What you see as shallow is the concept of grace through works; its a cheap grace and not the grace that Jesus spoke of on the cross, where He beckoned for His persecutors to be forgiven. By all means, spread the Gospel. But your incessant barrage on the evils of Islam is not the Good News Jesus spoke of.



Ask yourself why Jesus did not JUST leave it up to God to deal with the money changers in the temple...
I believe Jesus is God, so...God did deal with it.



Do you think it prudent and Christian to not warn others of a great trap/pitfall !????-Tyr
Proverbs 27:12
The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.


Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

[jafar00]

How about the entire world pony up the billions to help educate? While I can get on board with less troops and some more $ - without the atrocities, let the entire world pitch in, and that includes some of the Muslim oil guys who's net worth is worth 3 zillion of each of us.

Oh no. You don't want the Saudis spending billions to spread their Wahhabism. That is part of the problem. Salafi/Takfiri/Wahhabi doctrine is what AQ and their fellow misfits follow.

[Drummond]

How about the entire world pony up the billions to help educate? While I can get on board with less troops and some more $ - without the atrocities, let the entire world pitch in, and that includes some of the Muslim oil guys who's net worth is worth 3 zillion of each of us.

Just as the USA shouldn't be the only country who cares about terrorism run amok, we shouldn't be the only ones interested in the betterment of others.

... Thing is ... this still assumes that they'd be willing to be receptive to any education efforts. I still think that Al Qaeda would paint this as interference in Middle Eastern affairs, and use it as a means to stimulate terrorist recruitment.

[Abbey Marie]

And I don't want to know any more about a religion that denies Jesus Christ as the ONLY way, the truth and the life. As far as I'm concerned one apostate religion is the same as any other. Why waste time on what's counterfeit when you can enjoy what's authentic?

I understand your point, and when we look at the eternal view, this is the logical argument. But as long as we live in the world, there is a very big difference between, say, Buddhists, and Muslims, in the way they treat others. That is the differentiating problem, and a quite valid one to point out.

[DragonStryk72]

How about the entire world pony up the billions to help educate? While I can get on board with less troops and some more $ - without the atrocities, let the entire world pitch in, and that includes some of the Muslim oil guys who's net worth is worth 3 zillion of each of us.

Just as the USA shouldn't be the only country who cares about terrorism run amok, we shouldn't be the only ones interested in the betterment of others.

It's a good suggestion, but if we can get together enough of a volunteer force, it shouldn't cost so much. Second, the world at large pretty much keeps putting the whole thing in our laps, which is part of why we have such a huge problem here. We're always the ones that have to deal with the cluster fucks as they crop up, so depending on the rest of the world is likely not a plan that will go the distance.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Who is it that offers condemnation? Might want to take that log out of your eye.

Matthew said 'do not fear those who can kill the body but not the soul but fear He who can destroy the body and soul in hell' the truth is the light of The Lord Jesus Christ, not the evils of Islam. You've stared long enough into the abyss Tyr; seek the truth of God.



It doesn't alarm me that Islam denies such. I'm saved through faith; not opposition to non-Christians. God loves us just the way we are, not by our works. The glory is His alone and denouncing others' beliefs does not glorify Him.



This thread is in religion/ethics forum. Not that it matters. I can point to hundreds of posts that discuss theologies that aren't in the religion forum. I'll address the money-changers in a sec.



What you ridicule is faith. True faith that the devil himself cannot destroy, let alone man. What you see as shallow is the concept of grace through works; its a cheap grace and not the grace that Jesus spoke of on the cross, where He beckoned for His persecutors to be forgiven. By all means, spread the Gospel. But your incessant barrage on the evils of Islam is not the Good News Jesus spoke of.



I believe Jesus is God, so...God did deal with it.



Proverbs 27:12
The prudent sees danger and hides himself, but the simple go on and suffer for it.


Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’"

Faith is something you have not something you desperately try to live up to.. Man is saved by grace thru faith. Faith in the Salvation given by the sacrifice of God's son Jesus Christ.

As Christian you are not supposed to ignore evil and don nothing ,excusing yourself by say/thinking--let God deal with it.
Jesus by example showed that man has to on occasion deal with it and that is why his actions in the temple occurred and were recorded.

Do you truly believe we should just let the neighbor wander into the quicksand that we know is there!?? And excuse our silence by reasoning let God save him or it is just his own fault because he isn't saved. ??

Islam is the greatest avowed enemy of CHRISTIANITY after Satan himself. You saying ignore it, or pretend its not a threat and if it is let the victims just be victims strikes me as callous and hard.

I suggest that you seek a confirmation of your previous mistaken judgment and hope you get one soon..

Concern for others be they saved or not is part of caring as Jesus would. Why not give those people advance warning so they may
live long enough to find the truth, the Salvation??

Find it ridiculous to defend being so callous...
You are free to walk any path you like but myself I intend to oppose this very , very great evil that teaches Christ was just a man!!!!!
And Salvation can be earned!!! It can not, for it is a gift from God...

[red state]

Not calling anyone in particular a "liberal" or anything but I would like to address that liberals always want to quote the "turn the other cheek" business due to their cowardice and what not.....sssssssoooooooooo, it is truly refreshing to see someone who hasn't forgotten the MANLINESS of Christ and did NOT turn the other cheek when a time for action was called for.

Obama has put a time limit on when we would 'retreat' from the muSLUM world ever since he first became president and it has/IS truly hurting our troops and our just cause. Personally, I hate to see the muSLUMists just move right back in after we've spent so much in limb, livelihood and money but I've said it hears ago under the first Bush that there isn't a THOUSAND of 'them' worth one, single life of "OUR BEST". Make no bones about it, our best (being those who serve HONORABLY and for the right reasons) are worth so much more than any of us....let alone the desert fleas that we seem to be content with flicking (instead of total annihilation). And don't tell me that we can't, because we can. We could have done EXACTLY that to N. Korea and Nam and I consider them to be FAR worse of an opponent than the common desert flea.

I say let them have at it....they are nothing but cowards (the whole lot of them) and it is sad that they, as well as we, have suffered so much because of their backward, tyrannical CULT.

[Drummond]

Not calling anyone in particular a "liberal" or anything but I would like to address that liberals always want to quote the "turn the other cheek" business due to their cowardice and what not.....sssssssoooooooooo, it is truly refreshing to see someone who hasn't forgotten the MANLINESS of Christ and did NOT turn the other cheek when a time for action was called for.

Obama has put a time limit on when we would 'retreat' from the muSLUM world ever since he first became president and it has/IS truly hurting our troops and our just cause. Personally, I hate to see the muSLUMists just move right back in after we've spent so much in limb, livelihood and money but I've said it hears ago under the first Bush that there isn't a THOUSAND of 'them' worth one, single life of "OUR BEST". Make no bones about it, our best (being those who serve HONORABLY and for the right reasons) are worth so much more than any of us....let alone the desert fleas that we seem to be content with flicking (instead of total annihilation). And don't tell me that we can't, because we can. We could have done EXACTLY that to N. Korea and Nam and I consider them to be FAR worse of an opponent than the common desert flea.

I say let them have at it....they are nothing but cowards (the whole lot of them) and it is sad that they, as well as we, have suffered so much because of their backward, tyrannical CULT.:clap::clap::clap:

This post of yours really hits the spot with me. VERY well said, Sir !

.. and I tell you, it's seeing Obama publicly setting time limits for retreats which convinced me more than anything else that he was (and is) actively aiding the enemy. What better serves your enemy's interests than to know it can move in, take territories, re-establish footholds and rebuild bases, if only it waits a while for opposition to fade away of its own accord !!!!!!

I'll say it clearly. Obama is a traitor to the US. He's also a traitor to wider Western interests, because new-found terrorist strengths and capabilities threatens us all.

Do us all a favour. Impeach the bastard.

[logroller]

Faith is something you have not something you desperately try to live up to.. Man is saved by grace thru faith. Faith in the Salvation given by the sacrifice of God's son Jesus Christ.
Amen.

As Christian you are not supposed to ignore evil and don nothing ,excusing yourself by say/thinking--let God deal with it.
I didn't say do nothin. Giving grace to others who are undeserved is doing something.



Jesus by example showed that man has to on occasion deal with it and that is why his actions in the temple occurred and were recorded.
Those actions in the temple which Christ found so terrible were men giving spiritual grace in exchange for money....and spiritual grace, as you admit, is given only by God. But that is far different than the evils you accuse Islam of. I can point to multitudes of occurrences, likewise recorded, where Jesus evinced love and forgiveness in the face of the evils...perhaps no more poignant than at Calvary.



Do you truly believe we should just let the neighbor wander into the quicksand that we know is there!?? And excuse our silence by reasoning let God save him or it is just his own fault because he isn't saved. ??

Why forewarn of the quicksand; would not instructing someone in the right path avoid such a peril?



Islam is the greatest avowed enemy of CHRISTIANITY after Satan himself. You saying ignore it, or pretend its not a threat and if it is let the victims just be victims strikes me as callous and hard.


I suggest that you seek a confirmation of your previous mistaken judgment and hope you get one soon..
First off, God doesn't offer us salvation from the wickedness of the world; He didn't even offer that to His own Son.
Secondly, why suggest I seek confirmation for something which you have already judged mistaken? Wouldn't it behoove you to provide confirmation of the alternative, correct judgement? (Or did you mean affirmation?)
Lastly, do you believe that Islam is somehow immune to the devil and therefore deserving of independent consideration?



Concern for others be they saved or not is part of caring as Jesus would. Why not give those people advance warning so they may live long enough to find the truth, the Salvation??
Advance warning...like in Revelations? Thousands of posts of yours and I don't recall those warnings being the thrust of your arguments but by all means preach it.





Find it ridiculous to defend being so callous...
This from a man who speaks incessantly of the inherently evil beliefs of billions he's never met.



You are free to walk any path you like but myself I intend to oppose this very , very great evil that teaches Christ was just a man!!!!!
A prophet is hardly 'just a man' but I believe him to be the Messiah and His word and life to be an instruction manual for my own life. Would you say the same?



And Salvation can be earned!!! It can not, for it is a gift from God...
I said no such thing; you misunderstood if that's what you garnered from my mention of cheap grace. Grace is received, not achieved.
What concerns me most is that, by your actions you demonstrate that you believe exposing the darkness of Islam is more important than exposing the light of Christ-- for the former does not beget the latter. The Bible speaks clearly of the signs of false prophets, I quoted a passage already from Matthew 7. (...By their fruits...) but alas, like the Good news, the impetus of Christ's lessons takes a back seat to your mission against Islam.


Your sin is one of pride and you'd do well by God to humble yourself. It's not any easy thing to do; believe me, I struggle with it myself; and I pray morning, noon and night that I can be a more humble servant; not for my salvation but for those whom through God shall the Gospel enlighten. For as Paul reminded the Corinthians, "let him who boasts boast in The Lord" (see also psalm 34)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Amen.

[QUOTE]I didn't say do nothin. Giving grace to others who are undeserved is doing something.
We can not give grace as it is a gift from God to us. -Tyr




Those actions in the temple which Christ found so terrible were men giving spiritual grace in exchange for money....and spiritual grace, as you admit, is given only by God. But that is far different than the evils you accuse Islam of. I can point to multitudes of occurrences, likewise recorded, where Jesus evinced love and forgiveness in the face of the evils...perhaps no more poignant than at Calvary.

Those actions on the Temple were men sinning against God the Father and Jesus showed that righteous anger when faced with blatant evil is justified!-Tyr




Why forewarn of the quicksand; would not instructing someone in the right path avoid such a peril?

You have to warn them so they can live and freely choose! Would you wait until the snake already strikes its deadly blow to only then try to save he child!??-Tyr




First off, God doesn't offer us salvation from the wickedness of the world; He didn't even offer that to His own Son.

There are two Salvations amigo, one is Spiritual (the soul) and the other is physical (the body)! Both are to be considered precious and guarded and nurtured!!-Tyr


Secondly, why suggest I seek confirmation for something which you have already judged mistaken? Wouldn't it behoove you to provide confirmation of the alternative, correct judgement? (Or did you mean affirmation?)

I provided tons of information on the subject as the subject was --Islam- not the Jesus, Salvation and God. Do try to stay on topic.. As I'll not let you divert or spin this away from the true evil subject=Islam.--Tyr



Lastly, do you believe that Islam is somehow immune to the devil and therefore deserving of independent consideration?

Immune from the devil!!!???? Are you daft? It is lead by the devil! It was birthed by him to counter the gospel of Christ. Now I see why you appear to be so confused/clueless. You fail to even recognize Islam as the pure evil it is! It is a completely false doctrine used to keep billions from the TRUTH, from the Salvation offered by Christ. A billion humans enslaved into its darkness and you say ignore, or do not actively oppose it! As you chide me for doing so, you aid Islam in its true goal. That of aid the devil in keeping people away from Truth of the Word of God, the message of Salvation by Christ and the fact it is all a gift freely offered and man can do nothing to earn it. IT IS A GIFT!!!
Islam teaches Salvation by deed, by earning it by way of total obedience and servitude! All of which is a lie!-Tyr




Advance warning...like in Revelations? Thousands of posts of yours and I don't recall those warnings being the thrust of your arguments but by all means preach it.

I was speaking on physical Salvation not spiritual, I am not a preacher and this is not a church!!!--Tyr



This from a man who speaks incessantly of the inherently evil beliefs of billions he's never met.

Yes, I fearlessly and adamantly choose to warn others of this great physical threat that can also become a spiritual threat as well. As they do not allow bibles or conversion to CHRISTIANITY where they rule. Something you choose to ignore apparently. -Tyr




A prophet is hardly 'just a man' but I believe him to be the Messiah and His word and life to be an instruction manual for my own life. Would you say the same?

A prophet is just a man unless it happens to be the only one that was also the Son of God! Islam pays not respect or homage to Jesus by denying his divinity but apparently you think they do! THEY paint him as just a great man in order to deny the Salvation he gifted to all mankind. For as just a man he can not gift Salvation, the Salvation they cry Mohammad delivered!-Tyr

I said no such thing; you misunderstood if that's what you garnered from my mention of cheap grace. Grace is received, not achieved.

As I always point out it is a gift from God..-Tyr




The Bible speaks clearly of the signs of false prophets, I quoted a passage already from Matthew 7. (...By their fruits...) but alas, like the Good news, the impetus of Christ's lessons takes a back seat to your mission against Islam.

As noted before, this is a political forum and my posts were not preching but rather political views about a major threat to this nation and its survival we are now speaking of its spiritual threat to mans soul, do try o not get them confused--Tyr


Your sin is one of pride and you'd do well by God to humble yourself. It's not any easy thing to do; believe me, I struggle with it myself; and I pray morning, noon and night that I can be a more humble servant; not for my salvation but for those whom through God shall the Gospel enlighten. For as Paul reminded the Corinthians, "let him who boasts boast in The Lord" (see also psalm 34)

You confuse my honesty with sin and truth given as arrogant pride. On both you are dead wrong! -Tyr

[red state]

I personally thought (via conversations with a few muSLUMs I've encountered) that some of them consider Jesus to be a good man but almost like a minor profit who will be used by allah at a later date. They see him as being just under the pedophile profit they love so dearly. In fact, I believe some 'sorta' believe that Jesus will be the one to come back and rule the world with a rod of iron. Of course, this could be a messed up branch from most muSLUM beliefs but however you slice it, they sure like the FORCED worship and TOTAL submission that the Christians call the Millennial Reign.

A world wide, one gov. system with one religion may sound unlike Christ but the Bible does state that right now (every knee should bow). It also states that one day (EVERY KNEE SHALL/WILL BOW when He finally has to come down and clean up the first, and I believe, COMING SOON world gov under an evil ruler who will behead Christians, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew and anyone else with the gumption of not worshiping this evil one).

As interesting as all these varying beliefs may be, I don't know how this thread got on all of the bickering about this and that, tic for tat.

As for winning the war on terror; we need to simply hold true to OUR values, heritage and beloved CONSTITUTION and not allow ourselves to be bargained away by leftists and failed leadership. That's exactly what Great Britain has done and IS doing and it looks as though we are following down the same road with our FAILURE IN CHIEF (aka CHIEF failure).