Ammo Shortage Explained : Operation Choke Point

[NightTrain]

The ammo shortage has been going on for a while now with no real explanation as to why.

The speculation that the Feds were buying it all up didn't really wash, because the manufacturers would simply increase production to meet demand - and that hasn't happened.

This, however, explains it.

Obama and Holder : The Usual Suspects.


The Obama administration, after failing to get gun control passed on Capitol Hill, has resorted to using its executive power to try to put some in the firearms industry out of business, House Republican investigators say.


Citing internal Justice Department documents, the committee concluded that the administration used a program known as Operation Choke Point to target legal companies that it finds “objectionable.”


The program was started in 2013 to protect consumers by “choking” alleged fraudsters’ access to the banking system. The Justice Department essentially forces banks and third-party payment processors to stop accepting payments from companies that are considered “high risk” and are supposedly violating federal law.


However, the documents released by Issa’s committee show the federal government lumped the firearms industry in with other "high-risk" businesses including those dealing with pornography, drug paraphernalia, escort services, racist materials, Ponzi schemes and online gambling.The committee also reported that Attorney General Eric Holder was informed the program has been shutting down legal businesses.
“We have documented that they are going after gun and ammunitions manufacturers, gun sellers and non-deposit lenders. Their own memos show they are well beyond enforcing the law,” Rep. Blaine Luetkemeyer, R-Mo., said Friday.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/02/holder-justice-department-accused-gun-grab-with-choke-point-program/

[jimnyc]

If this were done to businesses that were acting within the law, they should turn around and sue the government and the individuals for a violation of their rights. Problem is, make it a federal complaint and guess who will look into it and decide on it? That's right, the same guy who gave himself a pass on 'Fast and Furious' - the AG Holder.

[NightTrain]

Yep, the Untouchables.

Unless something were to happen in November, such as the Democrats losing control of the Senate... then there will be fireworks.

Oh, my, yes indeed.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Yep, the Untouchables.

Unless something were to happen in November, such as the Democrats losing control of the Senate... then there will be fireworks.

Oh, my, yes indeed.
Untouchable for now!!!!
Future may show a far different result IMHO... -TYR

[fj1200]

Or...

The .22 Ammo Shortage Mystery -- Solved! (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/31/the-22-ammo-shortage-mystery-solved.aspx)
Who's to blame?
Similar stories can be heard from owners of guns of all shapes and sizes -- not just .22s. To cite just one example, after skyrocketing in price (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/02/17/the-nra-reveals-whos-to-blame-for-ammo-shortage-yo.aspx) through the end of 2013, Brown Bear 7.62x39mm rifle rounds (standard for an AK-47) are now entirely unavailable on AIM Surplus. All you can get today is cheap Russian Wolf-brand ammo ... that costs a staggering $230 for a box of 1000 rounds.

Why is this?National Shooting Sports Foundation, or NSSF, public affairs director Mike Bazinet notes that "there are a lot of wild stories" about the ammunition shortage, with some people even blaming the U.S. government for "buying up all the ammo." But according to Bazinet, that's simply not the case. In fact, "government purchases have gone down over last three years."
He may be right. Earlier this year, the National Rifle Association, or NRA, helped to debunk the "government conspiracy" thesis for America's .22 ammo shortage. Laying out the facts and figures in a multi-page spread in American Rifleman, the "official journal of the NRA," the NRA described how:


The dollar value of ammunition sales in America doubled between 2007 and 2012. Highlighting the obvious, the NRA noted that sales really "started to climb fast as gun sales began surging" in the run-up to the 2008 Presidential election.
ATK (NYSE: ATK (http://caps.fool.com/Ticker/ATK.aspx?source=isssitthv0000001) (http://my.fool.com/watchlist/add?ticker=ATK&source=iwlsitbut0000010)) subsidiary Federal Cartridge Company attributes (http://www.federalpremium.com/news/default.aspx) ammo shortages to "high demand for our products," and said flat out that the biggest increases in ammunition purchases are coming from "the civilian market." (This means you).
Olin Corp's (NYSE: OLN (http://caps.fool.com/Ticker/OLN.aspx?source=isssitthv0000001) (http://my.fool.com/watchlist/add?ticker=OLN&source=iwlsitbut0000010)) Winchester Ammunition agrees it is "that experiencing an extremely high demand."
And privately held Freedom Group, which manufactures Remington cartridges, says "it's clear to us that any lack of supply in the marketplace has been from consumer demand."

And then there was the interview with privately held Hornady Manufacturing. There, President Steve Hornady explained to the NRA, "People walk into the store, they don't see as much as they want so they take everything they can get. The next guy who comes in can't get anything, so he panics."
Panic and prudent price-comparison habits rarely go hand-in-hand, of course. This naturally results in higher prices for ammunition.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Or...

The .22 Ammo Shortage Mystery -- Solved! (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/31/the-22-ammo-shortage-mystery-solved.aspx)



NightTrain's Avatar
NightTrain
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Default Ammo Shortage Explained : Operation Choke Point

The ammo shortage has been going on for a while now with no real explanation as to why.

The speculation that the Feds were buying it all up didn't really wash, because the manufacturers would simply increase production to meet demand - and that hasn't happened.

This, however, explains it.

Obama and Holder : The Usual Suspects.
The Obama administration, after failing to get gun control passed on Capitol Hill, has resorted to using its executive power to try to put some in the firearms industry out of business, House Republican investigators say.

Citing internal Justice Department documents, the committee concluded that the administration used a program known as Operation Choke Point to target legal companies that it finds “objectionable.”

The program was started in 2013 to protect consumers by “choking” alleged fraudsters’ access to the banking system. The Justice Department essentially forces banks and third-party payment processors to stop accepting payments from companies that are considered “high risk” and are supposedly violating federal law.

However, the documents released by Issa’s committee show the federal government lumped the firearms industry in with other "high-risk" businesses including those dealing with pornography, drug paraphernalia, escort services, racist materials, Ponzi schemes and online gambling.The committee also reported that Attorney General Eric Holder was informed the program has been shutting down legal businesses.
“We have documented that they are going after gun and ammunitions manufacturers, gun sellers and non-deposit lenders. Their own memos show they are well beyond enforcing the law,” Rep. Blaine Luetkemeyer, R-Mo., said Friday. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...point-program/

hmmmm, I think I'll go with the source and info Nighttrain gave..
Yours seems to be the government spill to me , put out to explain its anti-gun stance away as not being real!
HA!!!
Those bastards want our guns so bad they ALL HAVE DAMN WET DREAMS ABOUT IT!!--:mad:--Tyr

[SassyLady]

Or...

The .22 Ammo Shortage Mystery -- Solved! (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/31/the-22-ammo-shortage-mystery-solved.aspx)



fj ... I have shopped at three different gun stores in AZ, and 5 here in CA. I'm on a standing order list at three of them here in CA. I can't get anything right now, and when an order does come in, we are limited to two boxes of .22 and one box of 9mm and one of .38

There might not be a "shortage", but it's damn hard to buy what you want when you want it.

[fj1200]

hmmmm, I think I'll go with the source and info Nighttrain gave..
Yours seems to be the government spill to me , put out to explain its anti-gun stance away as not being real!
HA!!!
Those bastards want our guns so bad they ALL HAVE DAMN WET DREAMS ABOUT IT!!--:mad:--Tyr

The NRA is government spill? :confused:


fj ... I have shopped at three different gun stores in AZ, and 5 here in CA. I'm on a standing order list at three of them here in CA. I can't get anything right now, and when an order does come in, we are limited to two boxes of .22 and one box of 9mm and one of .38

There might not be a "shortage", but it's damn hard to buy what you want when you want it.

Nobody said there wasn't a shortage.

[Gunny]

hmmmm, I think I'll go with the source and info Nighttrain gave..
Yours seems to be the government spill to me , put out to explain its anti-gun stance away as not being real!
HA!!!
Those bastards want our guns so bad they ALL HAVE DAMN WET DREAMS ABOUT IT!!--:mad:--Tyr

I actually think BOTH NT and FJ are correct. Ever since Obama got elected, people stock up the best they can. I know one guy I used to work with walked in, saw a pallet and bought it. The gun store I go to limits your ammo, as sassy posted.

I also don't think our economy has been good enough to warrant an increase in ammo production. The companies sell to the gun shop owners based on what the gun shops order.

But .. I have no doubt the Federal government can and will legislate a way around the 2nd. If attacking the banks is it, it's a pretty sound strategy as is does not address the 2nd Amendment but allows them to back door it.

[SassyLady]

The NRA is government spill? :confused:



Nobody said there wasn't a shortage.

So, you agree that there is a shortage, just not on the cause of the shortage? Perhaps, as the article you posted theorizes, people are buying more and it's the consumer demand that is causing the shortage. Why do you suppose there is such a demand from the private sector?

Perhaps a lack of trust in the government?

[Gunny]

So, you agree that there is a shortage, just not on the cause of the shortage? Perhaps, as the article you posted theorizes, people are buying more and it's the consumer demand that is causing the shortage. Why do you suppose there is such a demand from the private sector?

Perhaps a lack of trust in the government?

The day after Obama was elected I happened to be in Bass Pro Shops and good luck. The shelves were empty. And that's no little store.

[darin]

www.gunbot.net (http://www.gunbot.net)

Know it. Buy when you can.

[fj1200]

So, you agree that there is a shortage, just not on the cause of the shortage? Perhaps, as the article you posted theorizes, people are buying more and it's the consumer demand that is causing the shortage. Why do you suppose there is such a demand from the private sector?

Perhaps a lack of trust in the government?


The .22 Ammo Shortage Mystery -- Solved! (http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/08/31/the-22-ammo-shortage-mystery-solved.aspx)

Panic and prudent price-comparison habits rarely go hand-in-hand, of course. This naturally results in higher prices for ammunition.

Perhaps. But then again I tend to discount the whack-a-doodle theories that tend not to hold up.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Perhaps. But then again I tend to discount the whack-a-doodle theories that tend not to hold up.

The bamboy destruction is no theory. It was predicted and came to pass with bells on!!
In fact, the boy went so far past even the predictions that its amazing.
Media covers for it all in its zeal to promote this scum and his socialist, anti American agenda.
Of course you fail to see that and chalk the truth up to merely be hate!
Hate da blackman crap.. The propaganda the government leeches go for so hard and heavy!
Which leads me to wonder why you take the bait so adamantly and happily.....-Tyr

[fj1200]

The bamboy destruction is no theory. It was predicted and came to pass with bells on!!
In fact, the boy went so far past even the predictions that its amazing.
Media covers for it all in its zeal to promote this scum and his socialist, anti American agenda.
Of course you fail to see that and chalk the truth up to merely be hate!
Hate da blackman crap.. The propaganda the government leeches go for so hard and heavy!
Which leads me to wonder why you take the bait so adamantly and happily.....-Tyr

As I said, whack-a-doodle. If you could stick with a topic and make a rational point, without the hate, then perhaps you would be able to sway some views. BTW, racism was a whole other thread.

EDIT:

And what exactly came to pass?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

As I said, whack-a-doodle. If you could stick with a topic and make a rational point, without the hate, then perhaps you would be able to sway some views. BTW, racism was a whole other thread.

EDIT:

And what exactly came to pass?

A have a warrior's heart thus hate is in my nature and soul. I hate my enemies and when its called for I rain that down on their asses. So sue me, this ole Southern boy ain't achangin'.....
I've put in too many hours and gotten to many scars to change now..
Just sayin'...
You wouldn't understand but I suspect many here do....
I bez da dinosaur da lib/dem asshats just LOVE to HATE.
Why you bring in the subject of racism? There was no damn racism in my previous post.
Still trying to paint me a racist because I post truth And FBI STATS on another tread , EH???
Here I was thinking this is about ammo shortage while you apparently think its about racism.
Can you make the connection??? --Tyr

[red state]

So, you agree that there is a shortage, just not on the cause of the shortage? Perhaps, as the article you posted theorizes, people are buying more and it's the consumer demand that is causing the shortage. Why do you suppose there is such a demand from the private sector?

Perhaps a lack of trust in the government?

Sassy, it is also GREED. There are those among us taking advantage of gloomy situations (or since the 2008 gloom and doom THEY elected). I know for fact that there are groups that one could almost label as organized crime. Whether criminal or not, they are organized and what I mean by this is there are those who go around buying all they can or ALL and are in cahoots with the store managers or those overseeing the counters. One ole boy I know caught them doing this....just didn't report it cuz all he wanted was his "fair share" and sure enough, they handed over the amount of ammo he needed to begin with. What these groups are doing (and there are many.....especially in the areas where the flea markets and big gun/knife shows are prevalent) BUT, what they are doing is getting dealers/crooked workers at the dealers to go in with them and re-selling the amo at a greater profit. I'm not saying this is a Nation conspiracy or movement of "organized" dishonesty but it is something that a few have found to be profitable and they are taking advantage of the situation. I also believe that the gov. has made it to where gun dealers and amo manufacturers are gearing up and locking down for a coming storm and many have had to move and reorganize. This is possibly why they have not GROWN to meet the demands as business is supposed to do. This administration has declared war on our economy and that declaration doesn't stop at guns and amo businesses. I truly believe that this shortage is because of many circumstances and non of them are the norm for a healthy American trade and economy. Everything seems to have trickled down.....FAILURE and corruptness from the TOP down (as a fish starts to rot form the HEAD firstly). We MUST win and win big in Nov. and again in 2016 or ALL will be lost.

[SassyLady]

Sassy, it is also GREED. There are those among us taking advantage of gloomy situations (or since the 2008 gloom and doom THEY elected). I know for fact that there are groups that one could almost label as organized crime. Whether criminal or not, they are organized and what I mean by this is there are those who go around buying all they can or ALL and are in cahoots with the store managers or those overseeing the counters. One ole boy I know caught them doing this....just didn't report it cuz all he wanted was his "fair share" and sure enough, they handed over the amount of ammo he needed to begin with. What these groups are doing (and there are many.....especially in the areas where the flea markets and big gun/knife shows are prevalent) BUT, what they are doing is getting dealers/crooked workers at the dealers to go in with them and re-selling the amo at a greater profit. I'm not saying this is a Nation conspiracy or movement of "organized" dishonesty but it is something that a few have found to be profitable and they are taking advantage of the situation. I also believe that the gov. has made it to where gun dealers and amo manufacturers are gearing up and locking down for a coming storm and many have had to move and reorganize. This is possibly why they have not GROWN to meet the demands as business is supposed to do. This administration has declared war on our economy and that declaration doesn't stop at guns and amo businesses. I truly believe that this shortage is because of many circumstances and non of them are the norm for a healthy American trade and economy. Everything seems to have trickled down.....FAILURE and corruptness from the TOP down (as a fish starts to rot form the HEAD firstly). We MUST win and win big in Nov. and again in 2016 or ALL will be lost.

I hadn't thought about the shortage as an organized hoarding scheme. Hoarding by individuals I assumed, but not an organized effort. I suppose if a disaster does hit, then the ammo would be like gold. And here I always thought salt, sugar and alcohol would be the new "gold".

[Nukeman]

Just a quick thought for those of us who have a hard time finding 22 ammo. there are 11,000 Wal-Mart stores in the world. If each and every Wal-Mart received 1000 rounds of 22 a week (that is 4x 250 rd bx's) that is 11,000,000 rounds a week just in 1 store chain and those wont last long. now compound that with Cabelas, Bass Pro, Dunhams, Gander mountain, etc.. etc... and you can see how many rounds can be manufactured and quickly gone.... It only take a couple of idiots to buy the stock up than go to armslist.com and list it for double or triple.

If you want to stop the bulk buying than stop buying off the scalpers and other low-lifes that hang out all day waiting for a shipment so they can jack-up the price.. Won't take long for them to get the idea no one is buying from them. I would go as far to say it would take less than 3 months of no one buying from these idiots for the market to stabilize and have enough ammo to purchase as long as everyone didn't go and start hording..

[Jeff]

Sassy, it is also GREED. There are those among us taking advantage of gloomy situations (or since the 2008 gloom and doom THEY elected). I know for fact that there are groups that one could almost label as organized crime. Whether criminal or not, they are organized and what I mean by this is there are those who go around buying all they can or ALL and are in cahoots with the store managers or those overseeing the counters. One ole boy I know caught them doing this....just didn't report it cuz all he wanted was his "fair share" and sure enough, they handed over the amount of ammo he needed to begin with. What these groups are doing (and there are many.....especially in the areas where the flea markets and big gun/knife shows are prevalent) BUT, what they are doing is getting dealers/crooked workers at the dealers to go in with them and re-selling the amo at a greater profit. I'm not saying this is a Nation conspiracy or movement of "organized" dishonesty but it is something that a few have found to be profitable and they are taking advantage of the situation. I also believe that the gov. has made it to where gun dealers and amo manufacturers are gearing up and locking down for a coming storm and many have had to move and reorganize. This is possibly why they have not GROWN to meet the demands as business is supposed to do. This administration has declared war on our economy and that declaration doesn't stop at guns and amo businesses. I truly believe that this shortage is because of many circumstances and non of them are the norm for a healthy American trade and economy. Everything seems to have trickled down.....FAILURE and corruptness from the TOP down (as a fish starts to rot form the HEAD firstly). We MUST win and win big in Nov. and again in 2016 or ALL will be lost.

I know a guy doing just this, he took me to his house and he had quite a few guns ( all garbage or shall I say cheap guns ) but then he opened his closet door and he had more ammo than I had ever seen at Walmart at one time, seems he thought he had gotten a great deal on it, remember when everything shot up and it looked like it was going to keep going up ( yup he bought then ) but then the price dropped ( even if only for a while ) yes he was trying to sell his ammo for double what you could get it at any gun shop :laugh: needless to say he is sitting on a bunch of ammo now. Yes prices have gone up again but people aren't dealing with him now, they realized what he was doing and now he is stuck with a bunch of over priced ammo.

As for a shortage, yes it would seem there is, but one of the shops I go to has almost anything I want in stock at all times, all the other shops around get inventory in once a week and won't sell but a couple of boxes to each customer ( this way they can sell to all there customers ) but this one shop in Athens GA will sell you all you want and they have good prices as well. Go Figure

[fj1200]

A have a warrior's heart thus hate is in my nature and soul. I hate my enemies and when its called for I rain that down on their asses. So sue me, this ole Southern boy ain't achangin'.....
I've put in too many hours and gotten to many scars to change now..
Just sayin'...
You wouldn't understand but I suspect many here do....
I bez da dinosaur da lib/dem asshats just LOVE to HATE.
Why you bring in the subject of racism? There was no damn racism in my previous post.
Still trying to paint me a racist because I post truth And FBI STATS on another tread , EH???
Here I was thinking this is about ammo shortage while you apparently think its about racism.
Can you make the connection??? --Tyr

How does you saying "hate da blackman" equate to me bringing up racism? That's right, it doesn't, that's your bag. As I said, there's a whole other thread awaiting your defense of your ignorant position.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

How does you saying "hate da blackman" equate to me bringing up racism?

Hoss, how about you stop posting shat you can not back up!



"How does you saying "hate da blackman"

First show where I ever said hate the black man. I hate Obama so is he all black men or just a lying piece of shit harming my life, my family and my nation! And what does his skin color have to do with his actions?
Nothing really, he is a self-serving worm regardless of what race he claims to be. You just can not let go of your plan to paint me as racist.
Here is a hint Hoss, when I speak about that piece shat it has nothing to do with his race but you can not fathom that because you buy into the propaganda he and his supporters spread to his gullible base.
Myself, I'd say he is more white and Arab than black.

Are you ever going to let go of this lame attempt to paint my candor(truth telling) as my being a racist?
I hate murdering muslim scum but not blacks--get with the program dude. I just speak the truth about anybody and anything and that irks the living hell out of you. Best you learn to live with it because 50 years now folks have tried to stop me, not a damn one has succeeded yet!-Tyr

[fj1200]

First show where I ever said hate the black man. ...

Are you ever going to let go of this lame attempt to paint my candor(truth telling) as my being a racist?
I hate murdering muslim scum but not blacks--get with the program dude. I just speak the truth about anybody and anything and that irks the living hell out of you. Best you learn to live with it because 50 years now folks have tried to stop me, not a damn one has succeeded yet!-Tyr


Hate da blackman crap..

I put it in quotes sparky, I didn't inject race into this thread, you did. And no, you don't speak truth.

[red state]

Tyr, Tyr, TYR......PLEASE,:trolls:

[red state]

I hadn't thought about the shortage as an organized hoarding scheme. Hoarding by individuals I assumed, but not an organized effort. I suppose if a disaster does hit, then the ammo would be like gold. And here I always thought salt, sugar and alcohol would be the new "gold".

Sassy, you are correct about the NEW gold when the $#!T hits the fan. I here Savage, Hannity and others talk about investing in GOLD for when bad turns to worse but these are truly lies and I hate to hear guys supporting such things just for money. That is their livelihood, however but the truth is (as Dave Ramsey suggests) GOLD will be as worthless as money (unless there are those who'd hoard it just in case civilization got back on its feet but by that time they could have starved to death or fallen victim to someone evil who knew that GOLD is the power that gun in your hand gives you. Yes, stored veggies, medicines and amo will be the new GOLD and even talents. If you have skills that are and WILL be needed in bad times....you and your skills could very well save your life.

As for NUKEMAN; very much appreciated in your take on the hoarding of ammo. I agree entirely that we should never allow them to profit and as Jeff stated, they (THEY) are doing the same thing in his area as they're doing in mine. So, it may not be a National organized cheating of the public but it is so prevalent that it has a big factor in the shortages nationwide. Of course, Clinton, Brady and others like them have all but devastated the gun industry. We load our own high powered and extremely accurate LONG DISTANCE rounds from military powder but since Clinton, we are no longer able to load this excellent round. And powder in general has made it extremely expensive when, at one time, it was much cheaper than going out and buying inferior loads. I've shot some decent store bought loads but they were NEVER anything in comparison to our own hand loaded rounds when it came to accuracy and trustworthiness.

I just hope we are able to continue buying, selling and trading our arms and ammo because (IF) the liberal scum had their way, we'd have NO freedoms at all (aside from killing developing American citizens, or forcing their PC agenda on all. They are for so-called free choice but they'll fight you tooth and nail on issues such as freedom of worship, more successful education than the public system and freedom to DEFEND.

[red state]

I know a guy doing just this, he took me to his house and he had quite a few guns ( all garbage or shall I say cheap guns ) but then he opened his closet door and he had more ammo than I had ever seen at Walmart at one time, seems he thought he had gotten a great deal on it, remember when everything shot up and it looked like it was going to keep going up ( yup he bought then ) but then the price dropped ( even if only for a while ) yes he was trying to sell his ammo for double what you could get it at any gun shop :laugh: needless to say he is sitting on a bunch of ammo now. Yes prices have gone up again but people aren't dealing with him now, they realized what he was doing and now he is stuck with a bunch of over priced ammo.

As for a shortage, yes it would seem there is, but one of the shops I go to has almost anything I want in stock at all times, all the other shops around get inventory in once a week and won't sell but a couple of boxes to each customer ( this way they can sell to all there customers ) but this one shop in Athens GA will sell you all you want and they have good prices as well. Go Figure

Yeah...they are out there Jeff (all across these United States). Scum is what they are and what they are doing is unlawful.....and against their company's policies, I'm sure. The guy I briefly mentioned kept coming to Walmart and they kept giving him the same run-a-round as if someone was coming just before him and buying the last box or two YET, he'd always see plenty at the local flea market and, at one time, recognized a guy that he'd seen talking to the clerk on more than one occasion. So, one bright and early morning when he knew them to have gotten in a big truck, he asked for his ammo and they told him the same thing. This time, he hung around and watched. Sure enough, "that guy" showed up and the clerk (as discreetly as possible) passed several boxes of ammo to the guy (early in the morning, mind you) AFTER the store had just opened and AFTER my friend had just been told that they were out. CAUGHT and turned in to the manager. I've also heard of instances where the managers of Walmarts were even in on the scam. Folks will do anything and jeopardize their jobs if they can turn an easy and clear profit (under the table). This is so well known that many who hear about it, DO IT. It is smart but it is also a crappy thing to do.