How would you deal with this kind of person?

[tailfins]

One team member will leave Friday. He's a real pleaser. He always puts out candy, offers to play tourguide for other team members and takes on crap work no one wants. He in the favor business. He's also partially responsible for the death of the project. He writes code that generates tons of documents and spends 80% of the time watching it run. The manager complained to his agency about his focus on "fluff". The team lead described him as "off in his own world". The team lead exclusively came to me to do repairs and write new code after another team member returned to India. I couldn't in good conscience give this person a recommendation nor do anything to cause him to be on a project for anything other than a manual tester. I don't want to throw a friendly person under the bus. However, I believe putting him on a project increases the chance of a failed project. He's busy but not productive.

[Drummond]

One team member will leave Friday. He's a real pleaser. He always puts out candy, offers to play tourguide for other team members and takes on crap work no one wants. He in the favor business. He's also partially responsible for the death of the project. He writes code that generates tons of documents and spends 80% of the time watching it run. The manager complained to his agency about his focus on "fluff". The team lead described him as "off in his own world". The team lead exclusively came to me to do repairs and write new code after another team member returned to India. I couldn't in good conscience give this person a recommendation nor do anything to cause him to be on a project for anything other than a manual tester. I don't want to throw a friendly person under the bus. However, I believe putting him on a project increases the chance of a failed project. He's busy but not productive.

There must be predetermined set objectives which govern this person's job ? If this 'team member' isn't efficiently and productively meeting them, then surely the failing can be concisely identified and dealt with in those terms ?

Surely the answer is to interview the individual and itemise the failings, then - IF it isn't already too late to embark on this - set remedial goals which are satisfied within a reasonable time .. a form of 'time and motion' approach. Those goals are met, or, they aren't, and action taken in accordance with any perceived degree of failure.

Seems to me that this comes down to adopting a disciplined approach .. ?

[tailfins]

There must be predetermined set objectives which govern this person's job ? If this 'team member' isn't efficiently and productively meeting them, then surely the failing can be concisely identified and dealt with in those terms ?

Surely the answer is to interview the individual and itemise the failings, then - IF it isn't already too late to embark on this - set remedial goals which are satisfied within a reasonable time .. a form of 'time and motion' approach. Those goals are met, or, they aren't, and action taken in accordance with any perceived degree of failure.

Seems to me that this comes down to adopting a disciplined approach .. ?

In two days he will be in the market for a new gig. In three weeks I will be. I cringe at refusing to help him onto his next gig. I also cringe at doing anthing that would put him on the same project as me. I also believe I would be doing a disservice to any company I help him work for. I hate to return unhelpfulness for friendliness, but I think he is a net liability.

[NightTrain]

In two days he will be in the market for a new gig. In three weeks I will be. I cringe at refusing to help him onto his next gig. I also cringe at doing anthing that would put him on the same project as me. I also believe I would be doing a disservice to any company I help him work for. I hate to return unhelpfulness for friendliness, but I think he is a net liability.


If he were to be managed with a clear set of goals and guidelines, then would he be productive? Or is he completely sub-par with his work?

[aboutime]

Why do YOU have to ask such a question? Are you his boss?

How bout MINDING your own business, unless you have the responsibility to control, or oversee this person you are so angry with?

Are you collecting a salary, or paycheck?

Minding your own business can help you maintain that status.

Complaining usually points employers, supervisors, leaders, and owners BACK to the Whiner first.

[tailfins]

Why do YOU have to ask such a question? Are you his boss?

How bout MINDING your own business, unless you have the responsibility to control, or oversee this person you are so angry with?

Are you collecting a salary, or paycheck?

Minding your own business can help you maintain that status.

Complaining usually points employers, supervisors, leaders, and owners BACK to the Whiner first.

My reputation is my business. I have to make the choice whether to "vouch" for him or not. Also to make the choice whether to stay mum when I find out multiple openings exist.


If he were to be managed with a clear set of goals and guidelines, then would he be productive? Or is he completely sub-par with his work?


He's hinted at being at some level of bi-polar. He goes on these grandiose jags where he creates a huge volume of junk that's going to change the world. For example, when it was necessary to make the automated test run as far through the process as possible, he decides to run the same tests over and over again, removing workarounds that other team members put in to address known bugs. He then sends out emails like this:

Note: Company specific information redacted

"Automation Breakthrough Performance: From Zero to ****** in 282 Seconds by ********* Driver Two
*******,
Here is state of the art in ***** automation: from 0 to ********* in 282 seconds.
Based on the app ******** Driver Two's flawless overnight run of all steps before ********** through a single sequence of 25 test scenarios, we got a breakthrough in performance for ********* automation. The app ******** Driver Two went on the average from zero to ***** in 282 seconds. This means that, in less than five minutes, ******* Driver Two fully carried out all mouse clicks and every keystroke for ********** and all prior test actions in each of the 25 scenarios listed below.
******** Driver Two is a game changer as its benchmark of ten times faster in three weeks brings us all to the highest possible level of excellence in test automation for our ******* project."

[aboutime]

My reputation is my business. I have to make the choice whether to "vouch" for him or not. Also to make the choice whether to stay mum when I find out multiple openings exist.




He's hinted at being at some level of bi-polar. He goes on these grandiose jags where he creates a huge volume of junk that's going to change the world. For example, when it was necessary to make the automated test run as far through the process as possible, he decides to run the same tests over and over again, removing workarounds that other team members put in to address known bugs. He then sends out emails like this:

Note: Company specific information redacted

"Automation Breakthrough Performance: From Zero to ****** in 282 Seconds by ********* Driver Two
*******,
Here is state of the art in ***** automation: from 0 to ********* in 282 seconds.
Based on the app ******** Driver Two's flawless overnight run of all steps before ********** through a single sequence of 25 test scenarios, we got a breakthrough in performance for ********* automation. The app ******** Driver Two went on the average from zero to ***** in 282 seconds. This means that, in less than five minutes, ******* Driver Two fully carried out all mouse clicks and every keystroke for ********** and all prior test actions in each of the 25 scenarios listed below.
******** Driver Two is a game changer as its benchmark of ten times faster in three weeks brings us all to the highest possible level of excellence in test automation for our ******* project."



OKAY. Well then. If your Reputation is on the line. JUST TRY TELLING THE TRUTH!

[tailfins]

OKAY. Well then. If your Reputation is on the line. JUST TRY TELLING THE TRUTH!

Therein is the dilemma: Silence or no silence. I will likely see opportunities where there are multiple openings. This guy is in the favor business, meaning he does every personal favor he can for people. I kind of owe him a few, but I also owe companies everything I can do to generate the best deliverables. I honestly believe this guy would slow down most projects, not to mention add enormous amounts of unnecessary "cut and paste" code so he can say how "productive" he is. He's so busy generating reports and emails that he actually UNDOES existing work so the information in his reports will look better. Having him on a team is like swimming with lead boots on.

[aboutime]

Therein is the dilemma: Silence or no silence. I will likely see opportunities where there are multiple openings. This guy is in the favor business, meaning he does every personal favor he can for people. I kind of owe him a few, but I also owe companies everything I can do to generate the best deliverables. I honestly believe this guy would slow down most projects, not to mention add enormous amounts of unnecessary "cut and paste" code so he can say how "productive" he is. He's so busy generating reports and emails that he actually UNDOES existing work so the information in his reports will look better. Having him on a team is like swimming with lead boots on.


THE TRUTH WILL...SET YOU FREE! If your so principled, or afraid of telling ONLY THE TRUTH.

Say nothing, and give up your principles. Do you have any input other than a recommendation?

If things are that bad between you, and your employer that you fear being Honest. WHO is at fault for that? You, or your Employer.

Sometimes, telling the truth hurts yourself, or other people. But lying, or not saying anything is almost as bad, and it get's everybody..NOWHERE.

[tailfins]

THE TRUTH WILL...SET YOU FREE! If your so principled, or afraid of telling ONLY THE TRUTH.

Say nothing, and give up your principles. Do you have any input other than a recommendation?

If things are that bad between you, and your employer that you fear being Honest. WHO is at fault for that? You, or your Employer.

Sometimes, telling the truth hurts yourself, or other people. But lying, or not saying anything is almost as bad, and it get's everybody..NOWHERE.

I'm speaking of future employment. He will leave the company in two days, me in three weeks. In this business, you get approached by agencies and asked, "I see you were in the same team as *****, what do you think?"

[aboutime]

I'm speaking of future employment. He will leave the company in two days, me in three weeks. In this business, you get approached by agencies and asked, "I see you were in the same team as *****, what do you think?"


Do you plan on LYING to them?

What's the problem?

Either you tell the truth, or you lie. CHOOSE which one you think is the Honorable thing to do.

[Nukeman]

Therein is the dilemma: Silence or no silence. I will likely see opportunities where there are multiple openings. This guy is in the favor business, meaning he does every personal favor he can for people. I kind of owe him a few, but I also owe companies everything I can do to generate the best deliverables. I honestly believe this guy would slow down most projects, not to mention add enormous amounts of unnecessary "cut and paste" code so he can say how "productive" he is. He's so busy generating reports and emails that he actually UNDOES existing work so the information in his reports will look better. Having him on a team is like swimming with lead boots on.This statement says it all. He is in the "Favor" business for a reason, he knows his work is sub-par and that he is lacking in certain area's and uses the "favor" to hide that fact from others. He is using you and everyone else when he does this.

I would NOT give him a recommendation if I was not willing to work with him myself..... Just remember the Stanford study of one bad apple. When they introduced a "actor" into a group and depending upon his persona the group fell into that same mentality. If he was a non worker than they all started to slack, if he was disgruntled they all became disgruntled as well. The productivity dropped by 30% on average when a bad person is introduced in the mix.

Like you said it is your reputation and you have to be the one to decide if you want to push him to others you may be working with in the future or rely on for future work!!!

[tailfins]

Thanks for the perpectives. I think if cornered on the topic, I will just say he spent too much time posturing then state that's all I want to say about it.

[NightTrain]

I wouldn't throw him under the bus, but I wouldn't tie my ship to his... you still have your own reputation to consider. Recommending an incompetent individual would surely harm you professionally.

[aboutime]

Maybe I'm just too old, but WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH JUST TELLING THE TRUTH?

When did being Honest, and Truthful become a detriment to anyone's professional life?

If you can't be honest to yourself. Then you won't be honest to anyone else.

[tailfins]

Maybe I'm just too old, but WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH JUST TELLING THE TRUTH?

When did being Honest, and Truthful become a detriment to anyone's professional life?

If you can't be honest to yourself. Then you won't be honest to anyone else.

The expectation is to be truthful without being a backbiter. That's why a simple, truthful sentence should suffice. I expect that will be boiling it down to "too much time posturing" and leave it at that.

[Drummond]

The expectation is to be truthful without being a backbiter. That's why a simple, truthful sentence should suffice. I expect that will be boiling it down to "too much time posturing" and leave it at that.

I expect you know your business (&/or his) best. For what it's worth, I get the impression that you already knew what you needed to know - and resolve - when you first asked the forum about this (?).

[Abbey Marie]

The expectation is to be truthful without being a backbiter. That's why a simple, truthful sentence should suffice. I expect that will be boiling it down to "too much time posturing" and leave it at that.

Whatever you decide, know that the brevity of your comments about him does not lessen its probable blow to his reputation and consequent employ-ability. Lots of harm can be done with just a couple of simple, boiled-down words.

[tailfins]

I expect you know your business (&/or his) best. For what it's worth, I get the impression that you already knew what you needed to know - and resolve - when you first asked the forum about this (?).

I just had a weird feeling about it. I don't want to be a dirt bag, but I don't want to be on a project with again him either. Hopefully it will never come up.

[Gunny]

One team member will leave Friday. He's a real pleaser. He always puts out candy, offers to play tourguide for other team members and takes on crap work no one wants. He in the favor business. He's also partially responsible for the death of the project. He writes code that generates tons of documents and spends 80% of the time watching it run. The manager complained to his agency about his focus on "fluff". The team lead described him as "off in his own world". The team lead exclusively came to me to do repairs and write new code after another team member returned to India. I couldn't in good conscience give this person a recommendation nor do anything to cause him to be on a project for anything other than a manual tester. I don't want to throw a friendly person under the bus. However, I believe putting him on a project increases the chance of a failed project. He's busy but not productive.

What you posted sounds like a fairly professional endorsement. That or you're saddled with him.

[gabosaurus]

I don't want to throw a friendly person under the bus. However, I believe putting him on a project increases the chance of a failed project. He's busy but not productive.

My husband's company has a simple way to determine the usefulness of an employee. It doesn't matter how good you are to people, how popular you are with others or what kind of methods you use. If your project succeeds and the company makes money, you are lauded. If your project fails, you are sacked.
When a lot of money is at stake, mistakes are rarely tolerated.

[Nukeman]

Maybe I'm just too old, but WHAT IS SO WRONG WITH JUST TELLING THE TRUTH?

When did being Honest, and Truthful become a detriment to anyone's professional life?

If you can't be honest to yourself. Then you won't be honest to anyone else.I believe the issue is not one of being honest but one of not ruining a persons career.

[tailfins]

My husband's company has a simple way to determine the usefulness of an employee. It doesn't matter how good you are to people, how popular you are with others or what kind of methods you use. If your project succeeds and the company makes money, you are lauded. If your project fails, you are sacked.
When a lot of money is at stake, mistakes are rarely tolerated.

You made an interesting thought cross my mind. If your husband's company really is like that, I would do well there in spite of political incorrectness. I'm much like the guy that builds ships in a bottle. I'm very focused and precise, hate bugs and growl at people when they distract me. :mad: The way you stay out of hot water in that environment is to have the nerve to say it when you're not qualified for a project.

[gabosaurus]

You made an interesting thought cross my mind. If your husband's company really is like that, I would do well there in spite of political incorrectness. I'm much like the guy that builds ships in a bottle. I'm very focused and precise, hate bugs and growl at people when they distract me. :mad: The way you stay out of hot water in that environment is to have the nerve to say it when you're not qualified for a project.

How are you at personal interaction? My husband's job is to manage the money of very wealthy people. Which often requires equal parts of common sense and sucking up when necessary. You have to agree with things you don't agree with and get along with people you wouldn't normally interact with.
If your client is a wealthy liberal, you agree with him. If your client is a wealthy conservative, you agree with him. Your views and opinions are inconsequential.

[tailfins]

How are you at personal interaction? My husband's job is to manage the money of very wealthy people. Which often requires equal parts of common sense and sucking up when necessary. You have to agree with things you don't agree with and get along with people you wouldn't normally interact with.
If your client is a wealthy liberal, you agree with him. If your client is a wealthy conservative, you agree with him. Your views and opinions are inconsequential.

I despise personal interaction. If I worked in your husband's company, a smart manager would assign me a quiet room and get world class research, analysis and custom software in return. I'm a grump and I know it. However, I get the job done. One day with me, or dare I even say at an interview, no manager in their right mind would put me with a client or an executive. I've had to explain things to a VP where the manager reminded the VP, "remember I told you to prepare yourself". I don't hesitate to use terms like "boneheaded system", "code that looks like it was written by a child", "incompetence on parade". Some places like that, others don't. I have no trouble finding work.

[aboutime]

I despise personal interaction. If I worked in your husband's company, a smart manager would assign me a quiet room and get world class research, analysis and custom software in return. I'm a grump and I know it. However, I get the job done. One day with me, or dare I even say at an interview, no manager in their right mind would put me with a client or an executive. I've had to explain things to a VP where the manager reminded the VP, "remember I told you to prepare yourself". I don't hesitate to use terms like "boneheaded system", "code that looks like it was written by a child", "incompetence on parade". Some places like that, others don't. I have no trouble finding work.


Thanks go out to gabby for showing all of us the truest forms of HYPOCRISY.

No moral standards, no personal responsibility...sucking up is as phony as admitting you LIE.

Hypocrisy for the sake of Ignorance Wins?

[tailfins]

Thanks go out to gabby for showing all of us the truest forms of HYPOCRISY.

No moral standards, no personal responsibility...sucking up is as phony as admitting you LIE.

Hypocrisy for the sake of Ignorance Wins?

On the other end of the spectrum, there is a thing called tact. I can choose to say "That guy could use some C-Sharp training." or "That guy is useless." Neither is a lie. If the former is said, the speaker is considered hard nosed. The latter is considered inappropriate.

[aboutime]

On the other end of the spectrum, there is a thing called tact. I can choose to say "That guy could use some C-Sharp training." or "That guy is useless." Neither is a lie. If the former is said, the speaker is considered hard nosed. The latter is considered inappropriate.


Call your excuses whatever you want. Nothing, but nothing can replace TRUTH.

Making excuses, or using other words to avoid telling the truth is still LYING.

[gabosaurus]

On the other end of the spectrum, there is a thing called tact. I can choose to say "That guy could use some C-Sharp training." or "That guy is useless." Neither is a lie. If the former is said, the speaker is considered hard nosed. The latter is considered inappropriate.

There are some jobs where your input on things is valued. Then there are jobs where it is best not to rock the boat.
Hypocrisy is not a valued trait. But it is preferable to unemployment. Personal interaction in the financial services business is about making your clients good about how you are providing for them.

[aboutime]

There are some jobs where your input on things is valued. Then there are jobs where it is best not to rock the boat.
Hypocrisy is not a valued trait. But it is preferable to unemployment. Personal interaction in the financial services business is about making your clients good about how you are providing for them.


So, you condone Hypocrisy, and Lying? That seems to be what you are saying.

What ever happened to being honest, responsibility, and having personal credibility that isn't given up just to please someone?
How many clients will trust you IF...they learn you are a Liar?

Example: OBAMA.

[NightTrain]

Call your excuses whatever you want. Nothing, but nothing can replace TRUTH.

Making excuses, or using other words to avoid telling the truth is still LYING.


That's a pretty hard-line approach to life, AT.

When you're dealing with people on a professional level, sometimes it's best to not blurt out everything you know about a person or event being discussed. Doing so will quickly earn you a reputation as a backstabber, and you will be at the very least isolated from your peers for fear of you turning on them.

Everyone screws up, and the difference between something that can be quickly and quietly fixed on the job can be those people that you quietly helped out in the past.

As a brand-new Apprentice with a whole week's training under my belt, I once unplugged the whole North Slope of Alaska. Someone had run an extension cord to power those servers in Anchorage on the 3rd floor and it was in the way of work we were doing. It needed to be unplugged and re-routed to be out of the way.

My Foreman & Journeyman were right there, and we all heard impending doom as the whole 4th floor above us in the IT Department lunged to their feet in unison and thundered to the elevators to come down and find out why. My Foreman quickly plugged it back in and we quickly removed ourselves from the area before the stampeding IT geeks arrived.

The case can be made that it was dishonest that my Foreman & Journeyman chose not to explain to the IT guys what had happened, because that would have given us as a group a black eye, and probably would have meant my immediate termination. However, the IT guys are known for doing stupid things like running an extension cord to power a whole bank of servers without having a UPS (battery backup) in place, and leaving it there unmarked and routed without thought to future work.

They didn't throw me under the bus, the IT guys didn't get a scapegoat for their shoddy work, and the North Slope was back online within a few minutes, and no one was the wiser - except me. I was very much more wise for the experience.

[aboutime]

That's a pretty hard-line approach to life, AT.

When you're dealing with people on a professional level, sometimes it's best to not blurt out everything you know about a person or event being discussed. Doing so will quickly earn you a reputation as a backstabber, and you will be at the very least isolated from your peers for fear of you turning on them.

Everyone screws up, and the difference between something that can be quickly and quietly fixed on the job can be those people that you quietly helped out in the past.

As a brand-new Apprentice with a whole week's training under my belt, I once unplugged the whole North Slope of Alaska. Someone had run an extension cord to power those servers in Anchorage on the 3rd floor and it was in the way of work we were doing. It needed to be unplugged and re-routed to be out of the way.

My Foreman & Journeyman were right there, and we all heard impending doom as the whole 4th floor above us in the IT Department lunged to their feet in unison and thundered to the elevators to come down and find out why. My Foreman quickly plugged it back in and we quickly removed ourselves from the area before the stampeding IT geeks arrived.

The case can be made that it was dishonest that my Foreman & Journeyman chose not to explain to the IT guys what had happened, because that would have given us as a group a black eye, and probably would have meant my immediate termination. However, the IT guys are known for doing stupid things like running an extension cord to power a whole bank of servers without having a UPS (battery backup) in place, and leaving it there unmarked and routed without thought to future work.

They didn't throw me under the bus, the IT guys didn't get a scapegoat for their shoddy work, and the North Slope was back online within a few minutes, and no one was the wiser - except me. I was very much more wise for the experience.



I agree 100% about it being a hard-line approach. And, I also see it as what is failing in most respects in our entire society. If we allow that INCH to become the norm...as in just a FIB now. Then..as we see in politics, and the abuse of power across our society, where following the laws are winked, and nodded, rather than obeyed. It becomes the MILE, where We end up without any Honest Standards to follow, or abide by.

I understand the business side entirely. But...eventually. Being dishonest IN ANYTHING, usually comes back to haunt you later on.
So...I call it making excuses...or Condoning Lies.
Bout time ALL OF US take a hard line for a change.
We see what LIES have done to our nation, and to our UNDER-educated population.
Call me old fashioned, or a hard liner if you like but. I HAVE NEVER gotten in trouble by being Honest, or Demanding Truth.

[NightTrain]

I agree 100% about it being a hard-line approach. And, I also see it as what is failing in most respects in our entire society. If we allow that INCH to become the norm...as in just a FIB now. Then..as we see in politics, and the abuse of power across our society, where following the laws are winked, and nodded, rather than obeyed. It becomes the MILE, where We end up without any Honest Standards to follow, or abide by.

I understand the business side entirely. But...eventually. Being dishonest IN ANYTHING, usually comes back to haunt you later on.
So...I call it making excuses...or Condoning Lies.
Bout time ALL OF US take a hard line for a change.
We see what LIES have done to our nation, and to our UNDER-educated population.
Call me old fashioned, or a hard liner if you like but. I HAVE NEVER gotten in trouble by being Honest, or Demanding Truth.


I understand what you're saying.

My point was that it's not always beneficial to engage in full disclosure. It's not lying by not volunteering information, unless you're directly asked.

I've been directly asked for information as to someone's identity by my boss that I declined to answer - respectfully, of course. That didn't make me dishonest, in fact, he respected me for my unwillingness to lie to him about it.

Tailfins doesn't need to volunteer the info about this particular guy, but he's concerned that the new company is going to directly ask him.

Simply not volunteering info and declining to comment on whether he thinks the guy should be hired is an honorable course.

[Said1]

Did I miss it, or did anyone actually talk to the person in question 'hey man, you're a great guy and I really like you, that's why I'm concerned. some of the stuff you've been producing is a bit whacked, are you ok?' Etc, etc. Sometimes people aren't fully aware of the problem or think others aren't on to them.

[tailfins]

Did I miss it, or did anyone actually talk to the person in question 'hey man, you're a great guy and I really like you, that's why I'm concerned. some of the stuff you've been producing is a bit whacked, are you ok?' Etc, etc. Sometimes people aren't fully aware of the problem or think others aren't on to them.

The Manager complained to his agency TWICE. I tried telling him that he was breaking things and his response was "I move forward, not backward." Eventually a branch of code was created for him to do his "thing" that just sat there off by itself. He is already gone and I have less than two weeks left. The result was all the tasks that needed to be done were left solely on my shoulders. The project has been shelved for insufficient "bandwidth". It's a three to four person endeavor and the company felt like building a new team wasn't an option. After someone leaves me and the company in a lurch like that, I desire no further contact with him. I surely won't approach him to add to any team I'm on. He is a nationwide resource and I'm an almost nationwide resource. I will go anywhere except states run by leftists. Lots of the projects I get have multiple openings.

[Said1]

There you go, problem solved.

[tailfins]

There you go, problem solved.

I see you're in the Great White North. Before starting a new gig, I plan to take a circular road trip clockwise involving Quebec, Labrador, Newfoundland and Atlantic Canada.

[Said1]

I see you're in the Great White North. Before starting a new gig, I plan to take a circular road trip clockwise involving Quebec, Labrador, Newfoundland and Atlantic Canada.
Cool. I remember you asking about the trans-Labrador hwy. I hope they've modernized since I was there. :laugh2: