Who in Hell do you know?

[darin]

I haven't thought about this in depth, but on the surface he makes several great points.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVXjpD-fvfI

Often I speak to religious people and sometimes I get the impression they NEED people to be punished. Some folks - Muslim, Christian, Other - talk like they will be greatly disappointed if others "Got to sin" while they did "Everything right!"

To me, those people do not know Love. Thus, they cannot know God.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I haven't thought about this in depth, but on the surface he makes several great points.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVXjpD-fvfI

Often I speak to religious people and sometimes I get the impression they NEED people to be punished. Some folks - Muslim, Christian, Other - talk like they will be greatly disappointed if others "Got to sin" while they did "Everything right!"

To me, those people do not know Love. Thus, they cannot know God.

His premise denies both God's right to judge and the fact God sent his Son as a Savior.
Those two are enough refutation for me...
Just another idiot trying to be all inclusive and including Islam in that.
Christianity must admit evil exists and must oppose it not seek ways to excuse or embrace it!
I'd tell that dude to his face he is an idiot and a fool and certainly attempting to promote evil .

My opinion is he does only scratch the surface. He is not the first nor will he be last that questions God's right to judge . Case in point is he not mentioning the crack whore had free will and choose her life. We do not get to choose how God judges us! He condemns it wrongly because he can not fathom we live in a state of sin because of Adam and Eve's failure and a loving God sent salvation by way of his Son.
I could go on for about 30/40 more paragraphs but do not see the need.
I'll just present this with note that the guy in the video is either no Christian or else one that has very, very little knowledge.





◄ Romans 9:20 ►

Parallel Verses

New International Version
But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

New Living Translation
No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?"

English Standard Version
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

New American Standard Bible
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

King James Bible
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"

International Standard Version
On the contrary, who are you—mere man that you are—to talk back to God? Can an object that was molded say to the one who molded it, "Why did you make me like this?"

NET Bible
But who indeed are you--a mere human being--to talk back to God? Does what is molded say to the molder, "Why have you made me like this?"

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Therefore, who are you, oh son of man, that you give a rebuttal to God? Does the thing formed say to the one who formed it, “Why have you made me this way?”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Who do you think you are to talk back to God like that? Can an object that was made say to its maker, "Why did you make me like this?"

Jubilee Bible 2000
Rather, O man, who art thou to reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

King James 2000 Bible
Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

American King James Version
No but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?

American Standard Version
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

Douay-Rheims Bible
O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?

Darby Bible Translation
Aye, but thou, O man, who art *thou* that answerest again to God? Shall the thing formed say to him that has formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

English Revised Version
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?

Webster's Bible Translation
No, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Weymouth New Testament
Nay, but who are you, a mere man, that you should cavil against GOD? Shall the thing moulded say to him who moulded it, "Why have you made me thus?"

World English Bible
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"

Young's Literal Translation
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it, Why me didst thou make thus?

[darin]

Your premise is God will judge people predictably. The guy in the video; he's saying because Christ fulfilled the law, we are atoned. He also suggests humanity has more capacity for grace than God, if "eternal suffering and punishment" is true.

[Abbey Marie]

We cannot know exactly how God will punish. But from the Bible, we know that:

1. He will
2. The only way to Him is through His Son.

[darin]

We cannot know exactly how God will punish. But from the Bible, we know that:

1. He will
2. The only way to Him is through His Son.

1. Perhaps he already is? sometimes the bible isn't uniform in its message of after-life punishment.

2. Righto - and in relation to the One Nation under Allah thread - we cannot know every vehicle God uses to communicate His love and grace to mankind. When Saul was blinded and became Paul, he spoke of meeting Christ. If that happened in Zimbabwe, the person likely wouldn't associate Him with the name "Jesus" - likely referring to meeting God/Creator/etc. No? Is that a sound argument (honestly)?

[Abbey Marie]

1. Perhaps he already is? sometimes the bible isn't uniform in its message of after-life punishment.

2. Righto - and in relation to the One Nation under Allah thread - we cannot know every vehicle God uses to communicate His love and grace to mankind. When Saul was blinded and became Paul, he spoke of meeting Christ. If that happened in Zimbabwe, the person likely wouldn't associate Him with the name "Jesus" - likely referring to meeting God/Creator/etc. No? Is that a sound argument (honestly)?

We will have to disagree, with me fully feeling how little I/we know anyway. My belief is that since Jesus lived, was resurrected, and will return, we will have no trouble knowing Him when we meet Him. To believe otherwise is to make it too uncertain that the Jesus of the Bible is actually God's son, and surely too shaky to rest our faith upon.

[aboutime]

Personally. I enjoy this kind of thread. And remember what my parents told me, long ago when I was very young. Never argue with anybody about Religion, or Politics.

Okay. So I'll admit it. I didn't listen to them about Poltics.

As for religion. I don't car whether anyone else believes, doesn't believe, has, or has No Faith.

That's none of my business. And what I believe is Nobody else's business.

I have faith in someone I call God, and Jesus. And, I know the definition of the word "FAITH", as in the belief in the UNSEEN.

So. No matter what anyone else thinks, says, or believes. I HAVE FAITH in a Higher Being, and don't give a crap whether anyone else does or not.
A good example of the differences between being a believer, and not...can be seen in the near total deterioration of our American Society.

End of story.

[fj1200]

Often I speak to religious people and sometimes I get the impression they NEED people to be punished. Some folks - Muslim, Christian, Other - talk like they will be greatly disappointed if others "Got to sin" while they did "Everything right!"

To me, those people do not know Love. Thus, they cannot know God.

Indeed, they insist on it.


His premise denies both God's right to judge and the fact God sent his Son as a Savior.
Those two are enough refutation for me...

He didn't really deny either that I heard. He affirms God's right to judge over man's judgement.


“Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

[Abbey Marie]

Exactly what do you all think it means for us to "judge"

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He didn't really deny either that I heard. He affirms God's right to judge over man's judgement.


No, he started out questioning God's right to judge. He did so in a clever way admittedly.
He also questioned why a crack whore would suffer hell? That question told me right away he did not have a clue and was actually anti-Christian.

He tried to reason that either God is wrong or else our concept of heaven , hell and what punishment will be meted out upon judgment day is wrong!

If ye lack the knowledge , do try to bone up on the subject....... :poke:
I simply loathe having to explain even basic concepts to get my point across.... -Tyr

[darin]

No, he started out questioning God's right to judge. He did so in a clever way admittedly.
He also questioned why a crack whore would suffer hell? That question told me right away he did not have a clue and was actually anti-Christian.

Actually the opposite - he's stating "God can judge whichever way he wishes" and his concern for the Aunt shows his love for her. That's VERY christian. Apart from loving - even those some consider damned - nobody can know christ.



He tried to reason that either God is wrong or else our concept of heaven , hell and what punishment will be meted out upon judgment day is wrong!

Maybe our concept IS wrong. Maybe we have lost so much in translation mixed with tradition and fearmongering our standard model of "salvation" is misguided.



If ye lack the knowledge , do try to bone up on the subject....... :poke:
I simply loathe having to explain even basic concepts to get my point across.... -Tyr

Apart from Love for people - even those who frustrate you - you cannot know Christ or God.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Actually the opposite - he's stating "God can judge whichever way he wishes" and his concern for the Aunt shows his love for her. That's VERY christian. Apart from loving - even those some consider damned - nobody can know christ.



Maybe our concept IS wrong. Maybe we have lost so much in translation mixed with tradition and fearmongering our standard model of "salvation" is misguided.



Apart from Love for people - even those who frustrate you - you cannot know Christ or God.

That you key in on Love being the start and primary focus for Salvation is great. No disagreement on that at all!
My mild frustration means nothing really. Just me being honest.
As the lesson of Job taught we are to love God far, far more than we are to fear his wrath, his judgment! Job eventually learned that and God replaced all he lost and even gave more.

Sure we disagree on this topic but not in the fundamental that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son!
Such love God wants all mankind to learn.
I suggest the bible to any looking for that blessing. I rightly reject the Koran because it denies Jesus is the Son of God sent to us to deliver a way of Salvation!
How can I not reject it and reject the violence it promotes!??? --Tyr

[darin]

That you key in on Love being the start and primary focus for Salvation is great. No disagreement on that at all!
My mild frustration means nothing really. Just me being honest.
As the lesson of Job taught we are to love God far, far more than we are to fear his wrath, his judgment! Job eventually learned that and God replaced all he lost and even gave more.

Sure we disagree on this topic but not in the fundamental that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son!
Such love God wants all mankind to learn.
I suggest the bible to any looking for that blessing. I rightly reject the Koran because it denies Jesus is the Son of God sent to us to deliver a way of Salvation!
How can I not reject it and reject the violence it promotes!??? --Tyr

Without context, the intent of the author is compromised. The violence is not the fault of the Koran - which likely has VERY good ideas on how to LOVE people, too. The violence is the fault of idiots (people). If something is not in the bible, but a truth, I accept it.

Back to this topic - I'm confused how I can love people enough to remove them from eternal torment based solely upon their ignorance, and yet God somehow hasn't mastered that portion of Grace. God can and will and has done whatever he wants in terms of ultimate judgment (because God operates outside of time, His judgment is complete - he doesn't have to sit up there and wait for our calendar to pass. God knows the future because he's there right now, as well as the past. Past, Present and Future - to God - is one big 'Now' event. I cannot prove it, but I'm sure I'm right). And maybe we are not to question Him - but it means He can do whatever he wants - and if Christ's sacrifice was enough for ALL mankind, all the better.

I suppose I'd ask God why Christ even had to die - why God NEEDED us to "pay for our sins" rather than simply live under his grace.

[Gaffer]

According to my reading of the bible, some time ago, hell is empty. There's no one there yet and won't be until Christ returns and opens it.

The descriptions of hell are all based on the trash pit located outside Jerusalem in the time of Jesus.

[aboutime]

Exactly what do you all think it means for us to "judge"


Abbey. I'd prefer to remain private on that topic, and religion.

So. Here is a link where your question can be answered...for all who ask:

http://www.cfirecm.com/QandA/Judge%20Not%20Lest%20Ye%20Be%20Judged.htm

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey. I'd prefer to remain private on that topic, and religion.

So. Here is a link where your question can be answered...for all who ask:

http://www.cfirecm.com/QandA/Judge%20Not%20Lest%20Ye%20Be%20Judged.htm

Great find, AT.

From your link:


How Are We to Judge?

1. We are to judge righteously. Jesus commands in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Judge by the Word of God and Its principles, not by someone’s skin color, whether they are tall or short (inherited physical traits), etc.

2. We are to judge without hypocrisy. "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom 2:3)

[aboutime]

Great find, AT.

From your link:


Abbey. As I have repeatedly stated here. I dislike getting involved with religious discussions.

So. I allow the READ SOURCE to do all of the talking for me.

So far. I have never been proven wrong, since I do not use my OPINIONS.

Thanks.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Without context, the intent of the author is compromised. The violence is not the fault of the Koran - which likely has VERY good ideas on how to LOVE people, too. The violence is the fault of idiots (people). If something is not in the bible, but a truth, I accept it.

Back to this topic - I'm confused how I can love people enough to remove them from eternal torment based solely upon their ignorance, and yet God somehow hasn't mastered that portion of Grace. God can and will and has done whatever he wants in terms of ultimate judgment (because God operates outside of time, His judgment is complete - he doesn't have to sit up there and wait for our calendar to pass. God knows the future because he's there right now, as well as the past. Past, Present and Future - to God - is one big 'Now' event. I cannot prove it, but I'm sure I'm right). And maybe we are not to question Him - but it means He can do whatever he wants - and if Christ's sacrifice was enough for ALL mankind, all the better.

I suppose I'd ask God why Christ even had to die - why God NEEDED us to "pay for our sins" rather than simply live under his grace.

Sorry but the Koran and accompanying Hadiths base too many violent suggestions upon words Mohammad uttered! Bible has the Old TESTAMENT which served to remind man that he can not gain Salvation by any works he dares to do! New Testament teaches only way to Salvation is by accepting Jesus Christ.. Just that simple, either one believes and receives Salvation or they do not. The Maker of the Universe and ALL it contains does not need suggestions or judgments from either you or I IMHO.
However you are free to interpret the bible as you deem best.
I wish you well on that journey my friend!!! -Tyr

[darin]

Sorry but the Koran and accompanying Hadiths base too many violent suggestions upon words Mohammad uttered! Bible has the Old TESTAMENT which served to remind man that he can not gain Salvation by any works he dares to do! New Testament teaches only way to Salvation is by accepting Jesus Christ.. Just that simple, either one believes and receives Salvation or they do not. The Maker of the Universe and ALL it contains does not need suggestions or judgments from either you or I IMHO.
However you are free to interpret the bible as you deem best.
I wish you well on that journey my friend!!! -Tyr


But salvation was presented in the OT - lots of times - based on actions. The NT teaches Christ paid-in-full the sins of mankind. And that's exactly it - God is free to use Christ's sacrifice as atonement for all mankind, for all of "time". Or, he can punish the ignorant or rebellious for all eternity as a way to display his love. ;)

Cheers, Tyr.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

But salvation was presented in the OT - lots of times - based on actions. The NT teaches Christ paid-in-full the sins of mankind. And that's exactly it - God is free to use Christ's sacrifice as atonement for all mankind, for all of "time". Or, he can punish the ignorant or rebellious for all eternity as a way to display his love. ;)

Cheers, Tyr.


Actually it was shown to be based upon faith.. It was also shown to be a future promise for all of mankind . When Christ came the Jews rejected him preferring to stay with the old religious practices which were put into place to show that faith in God was necessary but only the coming Savior could actually save. How God judges those prior to Jesus's coming is another topic! A truly interesting and great one it is! I believe during Jesus three days(time relevant) he traveled to where all people dying prior were at rest and he spoke to them--those accepting him were saved those not accepting were not! As far as how God judges al mankind prior to Christ its not my concern my friend. He is God and we puny mortals can not and should not ever dare to challenge his mercy, love and/or wisdom..
The punishment God gives is only after rejection so it matters not if we think it just too severe!

Cheers, -Tyr

[fj1200]

No, he started out questioning God's right to judge. He did so in a clever way admittedly.
He also questioned why a crack whore would suffer hell? That question told me right away he did not have a clue and was actually anti-Christian.

He tried to reason that either God is wrong or else our concept of heaven , hell and what punishment will be meted out upon judgment day is wrong!

If ye lack the knowledge , do try to bone up on the subject....... :poke:
I simply loathe having to explain even basic concepts to get my point across.... -Tyr

Pastor Robert Rutherford is anti-Christian? Interesting. But of course he can put two sentences together so he must be passing something off. :rolleyes:

He only attempted to reason that perhaps our understanding of God might be short. IMO the worst thing is for anyone to be sure that they know everything about God in particular.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Pastor Robert Rutherford is anti-Christian? Interesting. But of course he can put two sentences together so he must be passing something off. :rolleyes:

He only attempted to reason that perhaps our understanding of God might be short. IMO the worst thing is for anyone to be sure that they know everything about God in particular.

I made that comment about what he stated. I care nothing about any title others give him. There were many thousands that proclaimed Jim Jones a great Christian , a great religious leader.
I don't know the guy and after seeing the video do not care to ever know his dumb ass!
Placing faith in others having great faith in Rutherford is sheer and absolute folly. For who are they and why place any faith in their judgment? They could easily be as gullible as the Jonestown victims were!
And from seeing the guy speak I think they are. I'd never step foot in a church he led..
Never!--Tyr

[fj1200]

I made that comment about what he stated. I care nothing about any title others give him. There were many thousands that proclaimed Jim Jones a great Christian , a great religious leader.
I don't know the guy and after seeing the video do not care to ever know his dumb ass!
Placing faith in others having great faith in Rutherford is sheer and absolute folly. For who are they and why place any faith in their judgment? They could easily be as gullible as the Jonestown victims were!
And from seeing the guy speak I think they are. I'd never step foot in a church he led..
Never!--Tyr

Ah, I see now. I, and everyone else presumably, am required to accept your ideology and any deviation is unacceptable. That explains more than just this thread.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Ah, I see now. I, and everyone else presumably, am required to accept your ideology and any deviation is unacceptable. That explains more than just this thread.

If you are going to offer up such a damning accusation the least you could do
is offer some proof like
1. Show where I ever demanded anybody accept my religion
2. Give examples of my ever asking what religion any member here has!
3. Be specific about your "more than just this thread" comment...

I like every other member here offer up my views , my judgments on topics.
I also reject that which I know to be wrong. In this case, the words of that asshat fool in the video.
I am not shallow and go with the crowd. If ten million people hailed that guy as a great Pastor I'd still reject him. Simply because he is a damn fool!
You may find that offensive but tough titty baby. I tailor my principles to meet no man or woman's
approval and most certainly do not alter my religious views to meet another human's approval.

Have I ever asked what religion you have or even comment on that , even lack of it if you have none? NO!
So your accusation is dead wrong. And if it stems largely due to my so often pointing out the pure present truth about that dire threatening evil of Islam too bad on that too. I'll present TRUTH about that very dire threat as long as I am alive.
Reason being is there is a worldwide effort with billions spent yearly to deceive all we infidels.
I seek to counter that in my own way.
Anybody, AND I DO MEAN ANYBODY THAT DOES NOT LIKE THAT CAN JUST KISS THIS PATRIOTIC AMERICAN MAN'S ASS!!! --Tyr

[tailfins]

Exactly what do you all think it means for us to "judge"

That question would take months to answer. I wouldn't be surprised to see that as a test question for someone getting a Masters in Theology.

[fj1200]

If you are going to offer up such a damning accusation the least you could do
is offer some proof like
1. Show where I ever demanded anybody accept my religion
2. Give examples of my ever asking what religion any member here has!
3. Be specific about your "more than just this thread" comment...

I like every other member here offer up my views , my judgments on topics.
I also reject that which I know to be wrong. In this case, the words of that asshat fool in the video.
I am not shallow and go with the crowd. If ten million people hailed that guy as a great Pastor I'd still reject him. Simply because he is a damn fool!
You may find that offensive but tough titty baby. I tailor my principles to meet no man or woman's
approval and most certainly do not alter my religious views to meet another human's approval.

Have I ever asked what religion you have or even comment on that , even lack of it if you have none? NO!
So your accusation is dead wrong. And if it stems largely due to my so often pointing out the pure present truth about that dire threatening evil of Islam too bad on that too. I'll present TRUTH about that very dire threat as long as I am alive.
Reason being is there is a worldwide effort with billions spent yearly to deceive all we infidels.
I seek to counter that in my own way.
Anybody, AND I DO MEAN ANYBODY THAT DOES NOT LIKE THAT CAN JUST KISS THIS PATRIOTIC AMERICAN MAN'S ASS!!! --Tyr

1. I said ideology not religion, though I did mean to say 'theology' which is different than religion meaning all need to accept your version or be damned as "anti-Christian" (post #10).
2. That's not what I said.
3. Do you mean more than just the bold in this thread? Because there's the "Muzzys," BO, liberals, etc. A shorter list would be what doesn't qualify. :poke:

[fj1200]

Exactly what do you all think it means for us to "judge"

Do you mean "judge not..."? Because that would be something we all fail at.

[Noir]

No one ^,^

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

1. I said ideology not religion, though I did mean to say 'theology' which is different than religion meaning all need to accept your version or be damned as "anti-Christian" (post #10).
2. That's not what I said.
3. Do you mean more than just the bold in this thread? Because there's the "Muzzys," BO, liberals, etc. A shorter list would be what doesn't qualify. :poke:

HA, I make no such demands .
Perhaps you confuse my adamant posting style with demanding but its not.
I noted my having never asked a single member here what their chosen religion was.
I don't care as its not any of my business but my choosing to speak about, warn about Islam will not be stopped because a member here adheres to that quasi militant/political ideology.
I believe I've had to make that clear enough already.
As to who and what I criticize how about listing that list on every member here and lets tally them up to see how mine stands.
And Hoss with your's included because its no cheery pie. .:poke:

My blatant honesty just makes me a much bigger target than most. And the fact that I make no bones about attempting to please others by holding back on my views. -Tyr

[Drummond]

Ah, I see now. I, and everyone else presumably, am required to accept your ideology and any deviation is unacceptable. That explains more than just this thread.

'Personalising', FJ ?

Surely not .... :rolleyes:

[fj1200]

'Personalising', FJ ?

Surely not .... :rolleyes:

Anything of substance to add or just trolling?

[fj1200]

HA, I make no such demands .

I'm sure you'll be able to spin your words to appease yourself but you declared that someone with a differing theology was "anti-Christian" though you share the same religion which makes any deviation away from your view unacceptable. Spin away but that's a true statement.

[aboutime]

fj. Just wondering. How many MIRRORS do you break every week, while talking to yourself, and impressing the idiot you see in the glass?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm sure you'll be able to spin your words to appease yourself but you declared that someone with a differing theology was "anti-Christian" though you share the same religion which makes any deviation away from your view unacceptable. Spin away but that's a true statement.
I have no need to spin. I made a judgment call on what he stated in the video. I'll stand with it until I see him recant or ask forgiveness from God. He was deliberately leading Christians astray.
I value truth over made given titles. Do not care if a billion people like the fool.
I do not base my opinions on the popularity of such people. That apparently you do is your problem not mine.
I take my own path and lead . I do not ever care to simply follow blindly like a fool..-Tyr

[fj1200]

I'll stand with it until I see him recant or ask forgiveness from God.

You keep making my point.


... required to accept your ideology and any deviation is unacceptable.

You prefer the fire and brimstone sermons where you're "going to hell if you do/don't..."?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You keep making my point.



You prefer the fire and brimstone sermons where you're "going to hell if you do/don't..."?

Rather confused aren't ya? I keep making my point.. Your point is apparently I have no right to an opinion on the man because he has a title(Pastor) and a following. I rightly pointed out SO DID JIM JONES---which you completely ignored and for good reason.

I prefer truth and truth points to the fact as a Christian he has no right instructing others that they are to question God's judgment as given in the Bible. By doing so he not only shows a great lack of faith but actually embraces evil(doubt the playground of Satan)...
Decades ago I spent many years studying the Bible not just READING it.
The guy was so wrong on such a large scale it's mindboggling how any Christian can miss it!!

I believe I linked to a source that amply proved that. Did you read or just ignore it?-Tyr

[fj1200]

Rather confused aren't ya? I keep making my point.. Your point is apparently I have no right to an opinion on the man because he has a title(Pastor) and a following. I rightly pointed out SO DID JIM JONES---which you completely ignored and for good reason.

I prefer truth and truth points to the fact as a Christian he has no right instructing others that they are to question God's judgment as given in the Bible. By doing so he not only shows a great lack of faith but actually embraces evil(doubt the playground of Satan)...
Decades ago I spent many years studying the Bible not just READING it.
The guy was so wrong on such a large scale it's mindboggling how any Christian can miss it!!

I believe I linked to a source that amply proved that. Did you read or just ignore it?-Tyr

Apparently as you ignored mine. :dunno: Nevertheless you have not accurately stated my point which is your insistence on dogmatic purity. Every time you utter "truth" is when my point gets validated.

[tailfins]

You keep making my point.



You prefer the fire and brimstone sermons where you're "going to hell if you do/don't..."?

Why sugar coat it? Better a sharp word now than hell later.

2 Timothy 4:1-4King James Version (KJV)

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[darin]

Why sugar coat it? Better a sharp word now than hell later.

2 Timothy 4:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Great verse - verse 1. Clear implication folks can attain heaven after their death on earth.
And a very good part of that passage is what The Church fails to do:


2 Timothy 4:1-5The Message (MSG)

4 1-2 I can’t impress this on you too strongly. God is looking over your shoulder. Christ himself is the Judge, with the final say on everyone, living and dead. He is about to break into the open with his rule, so proclaim the Message with intensity; keep on your watch. Challenge, warn, and urge your people. Don’t ever quit. Just keep it simple.



Keep it SIMPLE. Stop adding rules and creating hardships and stumbling blocks to God.

And keep in mind, This entire book is a letter from Paul to Timothy - does not mean it's instructions to everyone. Does not mean "God is looking over everyone's shoulder" - as Paul is writing as an encouragement to Tim.