How Christianity Murders Like Islam Does

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Started so equal opportunity may reign supreme here.

Have at it Jafar . Post all the negatives about Christianity that you care to share!

I've just planted the seed now you grow the tree if you can. --Tyr

[jafar00]

What a waste of time and effort opening this thread was. Kinda like finding a crime and twisting the story to make the religion of the perpetrator the central theme of the post rather than the actual crime committed.

[gabosaurus]

Tyr, how Christians have murdered their kids because God told them to do so? Andrea Yates drowned all her kids for that very reason.
David Koresh took a number of child brides because God told him to.
Some radical extremists Muslims kill people. Some radical Christians kill people. Then we have all the pedophile priests.
The jam side always hits the floor.

[jafar00]

The jam side always hits the floor.

:laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

What a waste of time and effort opening this thread was. Kinda like finding a crime and twisting the story to make the religion of the perpetrator the central theme of the post rather than the actual crime committed.

So you do not agree that you had no equal opportunities to refute my posts. I guess the charge leveled at me of that inequality was therefore false.

Go ahead post your list of atrocities engaged in by Christians ..
I will not cry about them but be sure they are true and validated actions..
Because if not I will refute them . -Tyr

[jafar00]

So you do not agree that you had no equal opportunities to refute my posts. I guess the charge leveled at me of that inequality was therefore false.

Go ahead post your list of atrocities engaged in by Christians ..
I will not cry about them but be sure they are true and validated actions..
Because if not I will refute them . -Tyr

You asked an unanswerable, nonsense question. Islam doesn't murder anyone.

I still stand by my position that it would be pointless to twist a bunch of crimes into a religious conspiracy. Anyway, I did exactly that a while ago in your thread about so called Islamic crimes and I got bored very quickly.

If you really must have something for this "thread", you only need to look at somewhere like CAR where children are being beheaded by Christian militias for a recent example of what you seek.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You asked an unanswerable, nonsense question. Islam doesn't murder anyone.

I still stand by my position that it would be pointless to twist a bunch of crimes into a religious conspiracy. Anyway, I did exactly that a while ago in your thread about so called Islamic crimes and I got bored very quickly.

If you really must have something for this "thread", you only need to look at somewhere like CAR where children are being beheaded by Christian militias for a recent example of what you seek.

Whar' iz da list ? Whar' are doze ezamples of da murders? Whar' iz doze lanks?? -:laugh:

I'ze bez arrestin' my kase... :laugh::laugh::laugh: --Tyr

[aboutime]

Tyr. They can't HANDLE the truth. And even Gabby exposed her hatred without trying.

And I thought the COMEDY channel was funny?

[aboutime]

Tyr, how Christians have murdered their kids because God told them to do so? Andrea Yates drowned all her kids for that very reason.
David Koresh took a number of child brides because God told him to.
Some radical extremists Muslims kill people. Some radical Christians kill people. Then we have all the pedophile priests.
The jam side always hits the floor.


And YOU...gabby. Do the spreading.

[tailfins]

If you consider Catholicism a form of Christianity, which I don't, you can count the Inquisition. Since I am a fair man, I will own the Salem Witch Trials as part of my faith. Don't forget that it was confined to a small community and short-lived (less than a year).

[jafar00]

Whar' iz da list ? Whar' are doze ezamples of da murders? Whar' iz doze lanks?? -:laugh:

I'ze bez arrestin' my kase... :laugh::laugh::laugh: --Tyr

What case?

[DragonStryk72]

If you consider Catholicism a form of Christianity, which I don't, you can count the Inquisition. Since I am a fair man, I will own the Salem Witch Trials as part of my faith. Don't forget that it was confined to a small community and short-lived (less than a year).

Well, the Inquisition bit isn't entirely fair. See, there were basically two different Inquisitions. On the one hand, you had the fully church-sanctioned Inquisitions, which, most of the time, were just an excuse to bring censure on unruly nobles, or seize some land. They generally ended with fines-I mean, "tithes", and didn't much go anywhere, unless you were being a dick about it, like with Galileo (Very smart man, but also, apparently, a bit of an asshole.). Unless you got way out of line, you were fine if you were a peasant.

It was really the Spanish Inquisition that went around the bend with it, and there was little the Catholic Church could do. Coming off of the schism that created the Church of England, the church's power was somewhat diminished, and it was widely feared than any serious attempt to rein in the Spaniards would result in the Church of Spain, something the Catholics couldn't afford. It was also a fight that they couldn't win at the time, due to the strength of both Spanish troops, and the Spanish navy. France, the Church could get away with, because they were busy having a bunch of wars in the Germanies, and wouldn't be able to bring their forces to bear.

The Salem witch trials pretty much was just a zealotous sect that got rolling as the extremism of the Puritans hit full swing, and had little to really do with anything Christian, seeing as most evidence that the Church would've required to prove Witchcraft was never found. Your husband having a sex dream about the busty woman living along the edge of town could be used to "prove" she had bewitched him. Because no male would ever dream of a woman other than his wife naked.

But really, anyone can use one of the major holy books to rationalize murder, up to outright genocide, and that's not a new thing.

However, we're still stuck with the point that Jafar doesn't really have anything bad to say about Christianity, it's just not his faith. so really, this is just a round about way of hiding behind "fairness" so Tyr can post another fifty threads every time a Muslim so much as shoplifts somewhere in the world. I mean, the Bible expressly forbids stealing and adultery, so no Judeo/Christian would ever commit either, right? I mean, that whole confession thing was just a waste, because no one in Christianity would ever actually sin in any way.

It breaks down to a giant double-standard, wherein he holds Islam to a standard he would never dare to hold Christianity to (I.E. using a small number of instances to condemn every Muslim in the world, while excusing every wrong committed by members of his own religion).

Here's what it breaks down to: All the bullshit in the ME is over one thing, and one thing only- Power. Other countries become jealous of Israel's power, and oh look, a convenient list of reason why Allah says it needs to be wiped off the Earth. Why are the Shi'ites attacking the Shia? Well, sure the Shia have significant natural resources on their land that the Shi'ites want, and, oh look, it just so happens that we've declared their beliefs a heresy. Oh well, nothing to do but strike them down and take it.

Why hate the Western powers? Because we keep breaking up the fight, and forcing them to accept that they can't win against us. We demonstrate a lot of power, and are unafraid to use such power. The religion is the excuse, not the cause.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well, the Inquisition bit isn't entirely fair. See, there were basically two different Inquisitions. On the one hand, you had the fully church-sanctioned Inquisitions, which, most of the time, were just an excuse to bring censure on unruly nobles, or seize some land. They generally ended with fines-I mean, "tithes", and didn't much go anywhere, unless you were being a dick about it, like with Galileo (Very smart man, but also, apparently, a bit of an asshole.). Unless you got way out of line, you were fine if you were a peasant.

It was really the Spanish Inquisition that went around the bend with it, and there was little the Catholic Church could do. Coming off of the schism that created the Church of England, the church's power was somewhat diminished, and it was widely feared than any serious attempt to rein in the Spaniards would result in the Church of Spain, something the Catholics couldn't afford. It was also a fight that they couldn't win at the time, due to the strength of both Spanish troops, and the Spanish navy. France, the Church could get away with, because they were busy having a bunch of wars in the Germanies, and wouldn't be able to bring their forces to bear.

The Salem witch trials pretty much was just a zealotous sect that got rolling as the extremism of the Puritans hit full swing, and had little to really do with anything Christian, seeing as most evidence that the Church would've required to prove Witchcraft was never found. Your husband having a sex dream about the busty woman living along the edge of town could be used to "prove" she had bewitched him. Because no male would ever dream of a woman other than his wife naked.

But really, anyone can use one of the major holy books to rationalize murder, up to outright genocide, and that's not a new thing.

However, we're still stuck with the point that Jafar doesn't really have anything bad to say about Christianity, it's just not his faith. so really, this is just a round about way of hiding behind "fairness" so Tyr can post another fifty threads every time a Muslim so much as shoplifts somewhere in the world. I mean, the Bible expressly forbids stealing and adultery, so no Judeo/Christian would ever commit either, right? I mean, that whole confession thing was just a waste, because no one in Christianity would ever actually sin in any way.

It breaks down to a giant double-standard, wherein he holds Islam to a standard he would never dare to hold Christianity to (I.E. using a small number of instances to condemn every Muslim in the world, while excusing every wrong committed by members of his own religion).

Here's what it breaks down to: All the bullshit in the ME is over one thing, and one thing only- Power. Other countries become jealous of Israel's power, and oh look, a convenient list of reason why Allah says it needs to be wiped off the Earth. Why are the Shi'ites attacking the Shia? Well, sure the Shia have significant natural resources on their land that the Shi'ites want, and, oh look, it just so happens that we've declared their beliefs a heresy. Oh well, nothing to do but strike them down and take it.

Why hate the Western powers? Because we keep breaking up the fight, and forcing them to accept that they can't win against us. We demonstrate a lot of power, and are unafraid to use such power. The religion is the excuse, not the cause.



However, we're still stuck with the point that Jafar doesn't really have anything bad to say about Christianity, it's just not his faith. so really, this is just a round about way of hiding behind "fairness" so Tyr can post another fifty threads every time a Muslim so much as shoplifts somewhere in the world. I mean, the Bible expressly forbids stealing and adultery, so no Judeo/Christian would ever commit either, right? I mean, that whole confession thing was just a waste, because no one in Christianity would ever actually sin in any way.

That's the ticket amigo just blame it on the messenger of the TRUTH and call it a day, eh?
That may work for some but not for people that appreciate that the truth must not be hidden, ignored or forced underground.
Jafar is the one that tried to defend Islam's sanctioned violence by saying but, but "the Christians do it too"! I just started a thread for him to list his claim and lets us see if it stands up.

Myself, I fail to see how anybody that believes in justice would object to such an equal opportunity being so kindly offered by me yet apparently you do. And do so after Jafar himself admitted he had not been denied the opportunity to present his case.

Here is the problem both Jafar and you have in this specific case
1. To prove I am a troll you must prove presenting truth is forbidden!
2. To prove I am a hate filled jerk you must show I spread lies to harm another member and prove that I do not present the Truth that's negative about an entire group of people..
3. To prove that my right of free speech is to be censored either by admin here or else your opinion that it does not suit what you would like to read!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blast away all that you want. I don't care because I uphold your right to free speech but know this I will counter any attack launched upon me and defend my character and reputation against any and all that attempt to besmirch it.

Shall I start a thread for you to list my transgressions????????

Oh, hell why ask , when its so easily done. Now the question is where to put it.. --Tyr

[tailfins]

.
Shall I start a thread for you to list my transgressions????????

--Tyr

Call 1-800-96-JIMNYC and tell us about it! :laugh: Inquiring minds want to know.

[aboutime]

If you consider Catholicism a form of Christianity, which I don't, you can count the Inquisition. Since I am a fair man, I will own the Salem Witch Trials as part of my faith. Don't forget that it was confined to a small community and short-lived (less than a year).



"Since I am a fair man"? Now that's funny, no matter what anybody says! http://icansayit.com/images/larry.jpg

[jafar00]

1. To prove I am a troll you must prove presenting truth is forbidden!

Well for a start, you have been misrepresenting criminal acts as Islamic acts without connecting the dots. You just state it as so and woe betide anyone who disagrees with your opinion which is 100% correct and everyone else is wrong. Am I right?

[tailfins]

Well for a start, you have been misrepresenting criminal acts as Islamic acts without connecting the dots. You just state it as so and woe betide anyone who disagrees with your opinion which is 100% correct and everyone else is wrong. Am I right?

I'm amazed that he's stone blind to a trick that gets used on opponents in the corporate culture. Spending time on information that is irrelevant is a kind of sand trap. To be effective on must pass the relevance gate before passing the veracity gate. I'm in favor of defeating Islamic terrorism. The effort must be focused, disciplined and intelligent. This blunt instrument of generalized hate REDUCES the chance of success.

[Jeff]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Sorry but after reading one comparison ( or so they say ) all I could do is Laugh !!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Sorry but after reading one comparison ( or so they say ) all I could do is Laugh !!

I believe I know which one that was.. :beer:--Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm amazed that he's stone blind to a trick that gets used on opponents in the corporate culture. Spending time on information that is irrelevant is a kind of sand trap. To be effective on must pass the relevance gate before passing the veracity gate. I'm in favor of defeating Islamic terrorism. The effort must be focused, disciplined and intelligent. This blunt instrument of generalized hate REDUCES the chance of success.

TRUTH is never irrelevant. The world is blinded by propaganda and a damn lot of it is sponsored and promoted by Islamists. Exposing those damn lies is never irrelevant and if you think it is you are blind IMHO.

What you erroneously call hate is mere presentation of Truth. And their failure to prove that presentation to be lies defeats them and highlights your faulty reasoning. This is not a company or corporation amigo. Also actions here are limited to mere words and even that has limits placed upon it.

Now how about you lay out your battle plan to use "focus, discipline and intelligence" to defeat the Islamist propaganda ... ?? One that ignores their current murderous actions that effect so many around the world. One that does not expose their true hatred of ALL that is not of Islam..
Go ahead , I await with awe for this great revelation that my puny brain could never imagine..:rolleyes:--Tyr

[Drummond]

Well for a start, you have been misrepresenting criminal acts as Islamic acts without connecting the dots. You just state it as so and woe betide anyone who disagrees with your opinion which is 100% correct and everyone else is wrong. Am I right?

All of this ignores a point I've made before.

Islamic terrorism. It doesn't just originate from one group of nutters who've warped Islam in a particular way, out of all recognition. No ... what we see is the SAME phenomenon of the SAME interpretation .. not just from one group, not just from one locality, but from MANY groups operating in MANY localities. Clear across the world, in fact.

To suppose that one almighty mistake just 'happens' to have been replicated, by accident and pure coincidence, on such a large scale ... is laughable.

No, Jafar. Islam HAS to lead to such barbarities and savageries. You cannot credibly divorce Islam from what's done in its name when those actions are so persistently prevalent.

And you CANNOT claim any of this level of savagery as originating from Christianity. OTHERWISE ... create a thread here which rivals the accounts of Islamic terrorism which is added to on a very regular basis !!!

[Jeff]

I believe I know which one that was.. :beer:--Tyr


I am sure you do :laugh: it still has me :laugh: some people post just to see how many post they can accumulate I guess :laugh:

[jafar00]

No, Jafar. Islam HAS to lead to such barbarities and savageries. You cannot credibly divorce Islam from what's done in its name when those actions are so persistently prevalent.

No. Just brown people, sometimes Arabs have done bad things. Recently their religion or the most prevalent religion of the area has been blamed for these criminal acts with no regard as to whether the religion had anything to do with it or not.

You can't make a terrorist Islamic just by calling him as such. Surely you need to provide some evidence that is more substantial than circumstantial from the religion in question that supports an act before you call describe it as an act of that religion.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

TRUTH is never irrelevant. The world is blinded by propaganda and a damn lot of it is sponsored and promoted by Islamists. Exposing those damn lies is never irrelevant and if you think it is you are blind IMHO.

What you erroneously call hate is mere presentation of Truth. And their failure to prove that presentation to be lies defeats them and highlights your faulty reasoning. This is not a company or corporation amigo. Also actions here are limited to mere words and even that has limits placed upon it.

Now how about you lay out your battle plan to use "focus, discipline and intelligence" to defeat the Islamist propaganda ... ?? One that ignores their current murderous actions that effect so many around the world. One that does not expose their true hatred of ALL that is not of Islam..
Go ahead , I await with awe for this great revelation that my puny brain could never imagine..:rolleyes:--Tyr

I see no reply and no battle plan. Tis' easy to make a broad statement of doing something but not so easy to present the how and/or execute... -Tyr

[Drummond]

No. Just brown people, sometimes Arabs have done bad things. Recently their religion or the most prevalent religion of the area has been blamed for these criminal acts with no regard as to whether the religion had anything to do with it or not.

You can't make a terrorist Islamic just by calling him as such. Surely you need to provide some evidence that is more substantial than circumstantial from the religion in question that supports an act before you call describe it as an act of that religion.

You're playing the race card ?

... and I agree ... I do not 'make a terrorist Islamic just by calling him as such', and I'm sure you know better than to believe any such thing. The POINT, Jafar, is that these terrorists make their OWN pro-Islamic declarations as support for what they do !!

I really fail to see how you can't know that !! After all, you say you're a Hamas supporter. Yet, they are a terrorist group, and their Charter makes it plain that what they do themselves is in the service of Islam.

You say I need to provide some evidence that is more substantial than circumstantial. Well .. just by citing the example of Hamas, I've done just that (their Charter is readily accessible, of course). But I can do far more, and will, right now ....

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/in-the-name-of-allah.htm

I'm sure you'll just dismiss this (and any other site like it) as a 'hate site'. Isn't that the case ? BUT THAT WON'T SUFFICE, JAFAR.

For you to be properly dismissive of material I supply, you need to show that IT IS UNTRUE. So ... you are invited to disprove what's in the following quote ... this, just a SAMPLE of its total contents .....


In the Name of Allah - Why terrorists do what they do... in their own words.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5952&stc=1


Islam isn't hijacked by extremists - it is what sustains them. This distinguishes Islamic terrorism from mere criminal activity, and it is part of what makes Islam so very, very different from other religions.

Many people would prefer to bury their heads in the sand or look for ways to recast Islamic terror to fit their own political agenda, but the fact is that violent Muslims are quite explicit about the religious certainty that compels and justifies their actions.

The teachings and early history of Islam that explain the violence are discussed elsewhere on this site. Here we just want to show that, as far as Islamic terrorists are concerned, their acts are done specifically in the name of Allah and for the cause of Islam and Islamic rule... across the globe.

Afghanistan

[The Taliban are] "a simply band of dedicated youths determined to establish the laws of Allah on earth... The Taliban will fight until there is no blood in Afghanistan left to shed, and Islam becomes a way of life four our people."

Mullah Omar, Taliban leader

"Our animosity is based on religion. We hate Americans for their secular ideology."

Tehrik-e-Taliban spokesman Ihsanullah Ihsan explaining why his group of terrorists are opposed to the American presence in Afghanistan.

"In the name of Allah the Avenger, I swear on the holy book to perform my sacred duty as a soldier of Islam in this Jihad to restore to this world the light of divine justice... Allah demands no less. For to die in the cause is to be sent immediately to paradise."

A Taliban official.

Algeria

“But the coming Islamic caliphate country will not rise except at the hands of the fighting sect who raises the flag of Allah and Jihad.”

Statement from the Salafi terrorist group, one of several fundamentalist cells responsible for the slaughter of 150,000 men women and children in the 1990’s.

"Our Jihad consists of killing and dispersing all those who fight against Allah and his Prophet."

"Throat-slitting and murder until the power is Allah's!"

Both quotes from leaders of the Armed Islamic Group (GIA). The first spoken by Sid Ahmed Mourad, the second from Abdelkader Hattab.

Bulgaria

“The month of Ramadan is a month of holy war and death for Allah. It is a month for fighting the enemies of Allah.”

'Base of Jihad' , taking credit for the brutal suicide bombing of a bus full of innocent tourists.

Canada

“Islam came for the good of humanity. So if someone doesn't like good we fight them.”

Faruq Khalil Muhammad, explaining why he supports terrorism against infidels.

Chechnya

“True resistance is helped by Allah the Supreme and the battles are for His just cause”

Abu Hafs, Mujahideen and one of the region’s most prolific killer

“I ask you to step up Jihad against enemies of Allah... Destroy Allah's enemies wherever you have them, wherever your hands reach you may open a front... When there is a total war, there are no more civilian objects or civilian population"

Doku Umarov, a leader who has taken personal responsibility for dozens of terror attacks in which many civilians were left dead.

China

“We are working until we make Allah's religion supreme and we live a precious life in the shadow of Islamic Shariah law, or else be rewarded with martyrdom in the cause of Allah. We are plotting for the Chinese to suffer the torture of Allah, or else by our hands”

Abdul Haq, leader of the Turkistan Islamic Party, which took credit for the hacking to death of 33 commuters at a Chinese train station.

Dagestan (Russia)

"I ask Allah that the next season he’ll give us the opportunity to kill as many kafirs [non-believers] as we can, just to shred them to pieces. Allah is almighty."

William Plotnikov, an Islamic militant fighting in Dagestan

Terrorism is killing non-believers... for the sake of Allah

Dagestani 'rebel' speaking on camera.

Egypt

"There is nothing more right in God's religion (Islam) than those who speak of the infidelity, reneging on Islam and abandonment of religion, and call for the necessity to fight"

Abu Mohammed al-Adnani, an al-Qaeda spokesperson

"Allah is our objective, the Quran is our Constitution, the Prophet is our leader, Jihad is our way, and death for the sake of Allah is the highest of our aspirations."

Credo of the Muslim Brotherhood, which has spawned attacks and numerous subsidiary terrorist organizations

India

“It's a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of Muhammad... especially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims."

Abu Jindal Hamza explaining why he helped slaughter 166 people in Mumbai

“Democracy is among the menaces we inherited from an alien government. It is part of the system we are fighting against… It is not possible to work within a democracy and establish an Islamic system… If Allah gives us a chance, we will try to bring in the pure concept of an Islamic Caliphate.''

"The notion of the sovereignty of the people is anti-Islamic. Only Allah is sovereign.''

Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, the leader of the Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorist organization

Yes! We - the terrorists of India – THE INDIAN MUJAHIDEEN, - the militia of Islam whose each and every Mujahid belongs to this very soil of India - have returned, to execute the compulsion of Allah:

"Fight them (the disbelievers), Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and give you victory over them and He will heal the hearts of those who believe." (Qur'an 9:14).
Here we begin ... raising the illustrious banner of Jihad against the Hindus and all those who fight and resist us...

All Praise and Glory be to Allah, Who Alone Helps His slaves, Who Alone Fulfils His Promise, and Who Alone Defeats the enemy....

While hoping for the Help and Victory from Allah we declare that such and more severe attacks shall continue irrespective of what the blamers blame us for.

The hosts (of the Kafir) will all be routed and will turn and flee. [Qur’an 54: 45].

We ask Allah to forgive us and Have Mercy on us and Aid us to conquer the unbelievers and Guide us to raise His Word and degrade His enemies with His Will Alone.

And peace be upon His Messenger, and all those who follow the Guidance.

The Indian Mujahideen, claiming credit for a brutal series of bombings that left dozens of civilians dead and hundreds more in agony.

Iran

“Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those who say this are witless. Islam says: 'Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Kill them, put them to the sword and scatter their armies'....

"Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to paradise, which can be opened only for holy warriors!

"There are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and hadiths urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.'”

The Ayatollah Khomeini

Indonesia

“We planned to kill for the sake of upholding Islamic Sharia and the establishment of a caliphate."

Captured terrorist, Bayu Setiono, who was busted along with five other members of an Islamic school for plotting deadly attacks.

“Keep on fighting for the application of Islamic law. If this state and nation wants to become great, safe, and at peace then it has to return to Islam one hundred percent without bargaining. If not, then it will be destroyed.”

Abu Bakar Bashir, spiritual leader of the Indonesian Mujahideen

Iraq (Sunni)

“There is no doubt that Allah commanded us to strike the Kuffar (unbelievers), kill them, and fight them by all means necessary to achieve the goal. The servants of Allah who perform Jihad to elevate the word (laws) of Allah, are permitted to use any and all means necessary to strike the active unbeliever combatants for the purpose of killing them, snatch their souls from their body, cleanse the earth from their abomination, and lift their trial and persecution of the servants of Allah. The goal must be pursued even if the means to accomplish it affect both the intended active fighters and unintended passive ones such as women, children and any other passive category specified by our jurisprudence.”

Statement by the head of Jama'at al-Tawid wal-Jihad ("Group for Monotheism and Jihad"), a Sunni terrorist known for bloody massacres, including 86 Shiites at a mosque.

Iraq (Shia)

“My motivation is a sense of duty toward my religious faith to fight against any hostile enemy of Islam.”

Abu Deraa, Shiite terrorist known for drilling into captive’s heads

Iraq (al-Qaeda)

"We are defending Islam and its sanctity”

A woman training to be a suicide bomber

All of this, Jafar, is but a selection of far more evidence of THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAMIC TERRORISM.

So, Jafar. Are you just going to trot out some lame 'This is just a hate site, so ignore it' excuse .. OR .. are you going to concede the true nature of Islam, and what it clearly DOES spawn ???

Feel free to disprove any or all of the above -- IF you can. In fact, don't you have the responsibility for doing JUST that, if you're going to persist with your stance, Jafar .. ??

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

You're playing the race card ?

... and I agree ... I do not 'make a terrorist Islamic just by calling him as such', and I'm sure you know better than to believe any such thing. The POINT, Jafar, is that these terrorists make their OWN pro-Islamic declarations as support for what they do !!

I really fail to see how you can't know that !! After all, you say you're a Hamas supporter. Yet, they are a terrorist group, and their Charter makes it plain that what they do themselves is in the service of Islam.

You say I need to provide some evidence that is more substantial than circumstantial. Well .. just by citing the example of Hamas, I've done just that (their Charter is readily accessible, of course). But I can do far more, and will, right now ....

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/in-the-name-of-allah.htm

I'm sure you'll just dismiss this (and any other site like it) as a 'hate site'. Isn't that the case ? BUT THAT WON'T SUFFICE, JAFAR.

For you to be properly dismissive of material I supply, you need to show that IT IS UNTRUE. So ... you are invited to disprove what's in the following quote ... this, just a SAMPLE of its total contents .....



All of this, Jafar, is but a selection of far more evidence of THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAMIC TERRORISM.

So, Jafar. Are you just going to trot out some lame 'This is just a hate site, so ignore it' excuse .. OR .. are you going to concede the true nature of Islam, and what it clearly DOES spawn ???

Feel free to disprove any or all of the above -- IF you can. In fact, don't you have the responsibility for doing JUST that, if you're going to persist with your stance, Jafar .. ??
Of course it is a hate site .. It presents truth does it not?? That's hateful to the Muslims that spend their entire lives denying truth , justice and freedom. Jafar can do nothing else but deny it. To admit would mean he'd have to question his faith and quotes from the Koran!! He'd rather try to skate by with saying Jihad just means struggle!! However many tens of thousands murdered in the name of the so-called "struggle" he choses to just ignore..
One can lead a mule to water but can not make it drink...--Tyr

[jafar00]

You're playing the race card ?

... and I agree ... I do not 'make a terrorist Islamic just by calling him as such', and I'm sure you know better than to believe any such thing. The POINT, Jafar, is that these terrorists make their OWN pro-Islamic declarations as support for what they do !!

I really fail to see how you can't know that !! After all, you say you're a Hamas supporter. Yet, they are a terrorist group, and their Charter makes it plain that what they do themselves is in the service of Islam.

You say I need to provide some evidence that is more substantial than circumstantial. Well .. just by citing the example of Hamas, I've done just that (their Charter is readily accessible, of course). But I can do far more, and will, right now ....

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/in-the-name-of-allah.htm

I'm sure you'll just dismiss this (and any other site like it) as a 'hate site'. Isn't that the case ? BUT THAT WON'T SUFFICE, JAFAR.

For you to be properly dismissive of material I supply, you need to show that IT IS UNTRUE. So ... you are invited to disprove what's in the following quote ... this, just a SAMPLE of its total contents .....



All of this, Jafar, is but a selection of far more evidence of THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAMIC TERRORISM.

So, Jafar. Are you just going to trot out some lame 'This is just a hate site, so ignore it' excuse .. OR .. are you going to concede the true nature of Islam, and what it clearly DOES spawn ???

Feel free to disprove any or all of the above -- IF you can. In fact, don't you have the responsibility for doing JUST that, if you're going to persist with your stance, Jafar .. ??

Despite your hate blog source, I will answer one of them since it is the only one to quote the Qur'aan. I don't think I can disprove any of the other nutcases wince there is nothing to prove there except these are very sick minds.


Hafiz Mohammad Saeed, the leader of the Lashkar-e-Toiba terrorist organization

Yes! We - the terrorists of India – THE INDIAN MUJAHIDEEN, - the militia of Islam whose each and every Mujahid belongs to this very soil of India - have returned, to execute the compulsion of Allah:

"Fight them (the disbelievers), Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and give you victory over them and He will heal the hearts of those who believe." (Qur'an 9:14).
Here we begin ... raising the illustrious banner of Jihad against the Hindus and all those who fight and resist us...

All Praise and Glory be to Allah, Who Alone Helps His slaves, Who Alone Fulfils His Promise, and Who Alone Defeats the enemy....

While hoping for the Help and Victory from Allah we declare that such and more severe attacks shall continue irrespective of what the blamers blame us for.

The hosts (of the Kafir) will all be routed and will turn and flee. [Qur’an 54: 45].

Very simple

9:14 is in relation to an attack on the Banu Khuza'ah who were allies of the Muslims and is part of the betrayal of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah as is much of Surah 9. The verse refers to events of the year 630 BC, not now and not any other time in the future. If this group is using this verse to justify their actions, they are fools and only directed this statement at people who know nothing about Islam because you don't know any better. You just see a verse at face value which I admit looks bad but in fact has nothing to do with what a terrorist group is doing.


Fight them, and God will chastise them, He will have them killed, at your hands and degrade them, humiliate them through capture and subjugation, and He will give you victory against them, and He will heal the breasts of a people who believe, [removing the harm] done to them — these are the Banū Khuzā‘a.
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=9&tAyahNo=14&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

54:45 is about the Battle of Badr in 624 BC.


(The hosts) the hosts of the disbelieving (will all be routed) on the Day of Badr (and will turn and flee) defeated; this refers to Abu Jahl and his host, some of whom were killed on the Day of Badr and others defeated.
http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=54&tAyahNo=45&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Why do you insist on getting your information about Islam from bigoted anti-Islamic sources? It is just propaganda.

Get your information about Islam from Muslims because some of us do actually know what we are talking about.

[Drummond]

Despite your hate blog source, I will answer one of them since it is the only one to quote the Qur'aan. I don't think I can disprove any of the other nutcases wince there is nothing to prove there except these are very sick minds.

Sick minds, eh, Jafar ?

Well ... those 'sick minds' all claim to be Islamists, do they not ?

How about the Ayatollah Khomeini ? A 'sick mind', Jafar ? How many Ayatollahs would you happily write off as 'sick' if what they said and preached didn't fit your sanitation efforts ?

My so-called 'hate blog' cited many examples of MUSLIM TERRORISTS and their atrocities, from various parts of the world. I still ask: HOW CAN THEY EXIST AS THEY DO, IF ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE ? HOW CAN THEY BE SPREAD ACROSS THE WORLD AS THEY ARE ? HOW CAN THERE BE SO MANY ?

So many 'coincidences' ... eh ?

And you say you'll answer just one of those examples .. skating over ALL OF THE OTHERS. Jafar ... I don't blame you !!

But never mind.

Perhaps this'll be of interest, then ?

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml


In an attempt to polish Islam's image, Muslim activists usually quote verses from the Quran that were written in the early days of the Islamic movement while Mohammed lived in Mecca. Those passages make Islam appear loving and harmless because they call for love, peace and patience. Such is a deception. The activists fail to tell gullible people that such verses, though still in the Quran, were nullified, abrogated, rendered void by later passages that incite killing, decapitations, maiming, terrorism and religious intolerance. The latter verses were penned while Mohammed’s headquarters was based in Medina.

When speaking with people of Christianized/Western societies, Muslim activists deliberately hide a major Islamic doctrine called "al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh" (the Abrogator and the Abrogated). This simply means that in situations wherein verses contradict one another, the early verses are overridden by the latter verses. The chronological timing in which a verse was written determines its authority to establish policies within Islam. Non-Muslims cannot afford to be ignorant about the full implications of the Abrogator and the Abrogated Doctrine (al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh). When Islamic spokesmen say that Islam is a religion of peace and that the Quran does not support such things as human rights infractions, gender bias and terrorism, they are lying. This means that the Western politicians and liberal journalists, who continually spout that Islam is a noble religion of peace, are in reality propagating a deception that they have been deceived into parroting.

This presents problems for naïve people who are not familiar with Islam and the Quran. They don’t know that the surahs/chapters of the Quran are not arranged in chorological order in regard to the timing in which they were written. Therefore an activist who is out to deceive them can turn to various places throughout the Quran and read verses that sound peaceful, tolerant, reasonable and loving. The impression is that the entire Quran promotes peace, love, equality and tolerance for all. That is far from the truth. Most Muslims fully understand that the few Quranic verses that seemingly promote equality, peace and justice are more often than not overridden/ nullified by later verses that validate such things as terrorism and legalistic restrictions on routine human and women’s rights.

The examples you picked out for study may refer to the times you cite. BUT ... if abrogation is an accepted principle ... then later, more violence-oriented verses, are what REALLY count.

Since you are fond of dismissing my sources as mere 'hate blogs', prove them, prove what they assert, wrong.


Get your information about Islam from Muslims because some of us do actually know what we are talking about.

Fine in theory. In practice, one might as well totally accept the word of an insurance salesman in all matters to do with the product he sells, because after all, we should conveniently overlook that he has a vested interest in selling his product !! It would be no less true for Muslim sanitisers.

Perhaps the greatest honesty about Islam comes from those with reason to offer criticism of it, who do not feel faith-bound to sell it to people ???

[Drummond]

Of course it is a hate site .. It presents truth does it not?? That's hateful to the Muslims that spend their entire lives denying truth , justice and freedom. Jafar can do nothing else but deny it. To admit would mean he'd have to question his faith and quotes from the Koran!! He'd rather try to skate by with saying Jihad just means struggle!! However many tens of thousands murdered in the name of the so-called "struggle" he choses to just ignore..
One can lead a mule to water but can not make it drink...--Tyr

:clap::clap::clap:

Jafar certainly did a lot of 'skating by' in his answer, Tyr. It seems that the world's Muslim terrorists, regardless of how many there are, regardless of how many countries they are found in, ALL of these, are, 'coincidentally', just 'nutcases' who just HAPPEN to have chosen Islam to 'twist' ......

I'm having great difficulty in leading Jafar to water, Tyr. Not unexpected, though ...

[jafar00]

Sick minds, eh, Jafar ?

Well ... those 'sick minds' all claim to be Islamists, do they not ?

Since "Islamist" is a recent English press word which has been given a negative connotation, I doubt whether even they consider themselves that ;)

Again, yes they have sick minds. Do you not read what nonsense they spout to try and justify their actions?


How about the Ayatollah Khomeini ? A 'sick mind', Jafar ? How many Ayatollahs would you happily write off as 'sick' if what they said and preached didn't fit your sanitation efforts ?

You mean the Shia Ayatollahs and Mullahs? They can all go to hell :) Khomeini was the sickest of them all. Did you see the quotes from him where he said if someone has sex with an animal and kills it, that you could sell the meat to the next village? Cringe worthy at very least.


My so-called 'hate blog' cited many examples of MUSLIM TERRORISTS and their atrocities, from various parts of the world. I still ask: HOW CAN THEY EXIST AS THEY DO, IF ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE ? HOW CAN THEY BE SPREAD ACROSS THE WORLD AS THEY ARE ? HOW CAN THERE BE SO MANY ?

The blog lists crimes and calls them Islamic. It doesn't make their actions Islamic.

Islam is against terrorism and all that terrorists do but that important point seems completely lost on you!



And you say you'll answer just one of those examples .. skating over ALL OF THE OTHERS. Jafar ... I don't blame you !!

I didn't skate over the others. Can you explain them? The ranting of nutters? The one I answered was the only one to quote scripture although they got it wrong. What have you to say about that? Are you just going to ignore it as usual and take the word of a terrorist over a peaceful, educated Muslim?


But never mind.

Perhaps this'll be of interest, then ?

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrine.shtml
The examples you picked out for study may refer to the times you cite. BUT ... if abrogation is an accepted principle ... then later, more violence-oriented verses, are what REALLY count.

Since you are fond of dismissing my sources as mere 'hate blogs', prove them, prove what they assert, wrong.

Why do I have to do all the work? You just copy/paste stuff :)

Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed, (11:1)

and

There is no changing the Words of Allah (10:64)

There is no abrogation in the Qur'aan as you suggest. There is only adding to previous verses and improving upon the information bit by bit.

The fundamentalist Christian site you quoted above shows the author to have little understanding of Islam, it's doctrine or of the Qur'aan.

The so called "sword verse" is not an abrogation of peace verses, but an allowance for self defence as Muslims at the time were under attack and being killed.

Allah says in the Qur'aan...

Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? (2:106)

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2_106.png
The "revelations" above or "Ayaatin" refer not only to the Qur'aan but to the Torah and Gospel that came before. The Qur'aan abrogates them if you like but only to make them better understood or to give extra clarity. Likewise there is a progressive prohibition on alcohol in the Qur'aan to help people quit it. They were drinking a lot at the time.

First alcohol is just bad and you should stop drinking, to prohibition of praying while intoxicated, to total prohibition.

They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. (2:219)

then

O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter (4:43)

Then

O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed. (5:90)

It's like the ban on smoking in restaurants. First smoking is bad and you are encouraged to quit, to smoking being banned indoors only, to being totally banned even in outside areas that were previously set aside for smokers before the ban. Is each law abrogating the other, or is it improving upon the first concept and that is to quit smoking?

And the "verse of the sword" as referenced by your fundie Christian anti-Islamic site has nothing to do with other peaceful verses. It was a simple dissolving of treaties with those who were attacking Muslims around 630AD and permission to fight back. It wasn't at all an abrogation of any of the "peaceful" verses. It had nothing to do with them despite your site saying so.


Fine in theory. In practice, one might as well totally accept the word of an insurance salesman in all matters to do with the product he sells, because after all, we should conveniently overlook that he has a vested interest in selling his product !! It would be no less true for Muslim sanitisers.

Can't you say the same about the site you quoted?

They say...


Muslim activists, in their attempt to spread their religion in the West, have been deliberately hiding a certain side of their religion. They carefully avoid, obscure and omit any negative teachings of Islam in order to lure converts. Our mission is to expose these teachings that are withheld from seekers in order to help people gain a more realistic insight of what it is like to live under Islam.

Their only purpose for the site is to spread lies in order to counter Islamic dawa in a vain attempt to stop Christians converting to Islam.


Perhaps the greatest honesty about Islam comes from those with reason to offer criticism of it, who do not feel faith-bound to sell it to people ???

The only ones I see offering criticism are those who don't understand what they are talking about or have a vested interest in doing so.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The only ones I see offering criticism are those who don't understand what they are talking about or have a vested interest in doing so.

Yet we are supposed to just ignore your vested interests are we? I fully expect you to defend your religion as every faithful member of a religion does so.. Yet you defend mostly by
1.calling as lies verified examples of Muslims murdering to advance Islam .
2. Or you call it hate .
3. Or you simply say--not real muslims.

Sorry Jafar, that does not cut it when Islam condones and even commands Jihad.
When Islam actively attacks and often even murders all that defame it EXCEPT these Jihadists. They it never touches!!!! They it denies but allow to carry on the so-called "defaming"... That allowance speaks volumes to thinking people that are not gullible and liberally educated bastards..

I am sure someday here they will attempt to murder me for daring to post the truth. Guess what? I do it anyway and will have a damn big surprise for them in the future when they come after me.. The CRAVEN COWARDS aren't used to coming up against such a fighter as am I.. And I'll never be without weapons to defend myself and my family. Obama and the government can go to hell on that subject..--Tyr

[Drummond]

Since "Islamist" is a recent English press word which has been given a negative connotation, I doubt whether even they consider themselves that ;)

You're indulging in pedantry to make a fairly cheap point ?

.. OK, then. They call themselves MUSLIM. They tell us that they're fighting for ISLAM.

Do you deny that they do ?


Again, yes they have sick minds. Do you not read what nonsense they spout to try and justify their actions?

Yes. They speak of furthering the Islamic cause ...


You mean the Shia Ayatollahs and Mullahs? They can all go to hell :) Khomeini was the sickest of them all. Did you see the quotes from him where he said if someone has sex with an animal and kills it, that you could sell the meat to the next village? Cringe worthy at very least.

'Nice' indeed ... although I'll leave you to judge how it compares with Mohammed's wholly unhealthy preoccupation with children ...


The blog lists crimes and calls them Islamic. It doesn't make their actions Islamic.

Ah, but there are SO many Muslim terrorists who'd disagree !!


Islam is against terrorism and all that terrorists do but that important point seems completely lost on you!And ... how lost is it on YOU, that - despite your stance - you're nonetheless a persistent supporter of an Islamic terrorist group that thinks nothing of strapping bombs on to children, and bombing Israeli territory and citizens indiscriminately !


I didn't skate over the others.

More accurately, you purposely avoided them.


Can you explain them? The ranting of nutters?

No more than I can explain ever wanting to slaughter innocent people for the sake of a religion started by a paedophile ... no.


The one I answered was the only one to quote scripture although they got it wrong. What have you to say about that? Are you just going to ignore it as usual and take the word of a terrorist over a peaceful, educated Muslim?

Who did you have in mind, Jafar ?

I would very much like to accept such a description as being true of you. Nevertheless, your support of Hamas remains undimmed. Or .. would you NOW, FINALLY, care to renounce your support of those terrorists ??

As for 'scripture' ... I don't know to what extent the process of abrogation nullifies or alters applicability. It may do so, completely. But then ... it seems to me that the Quran is set up so as to be disguised as something it's not .. according to a Muslim's need of the moment.

And it still remains the case that MANY terrorist groups, CLEAR ACROSS THE WORLD, FIND INSPIRATION FOR THEIR BARBARITIES FROM ISLAM ... whether you like it or not.

Hamas is one. Hezbollah another. Al Qaeda yet another. And so it goes on ....


Why do I have to do all the work? You just copy/paste stuff :)

I do, don't I ? Do you wish I didn't, Jafar ?

It's called 'EVIDENCE' of what I assert. And I shall continue to post such evidence, as and when I become aware of it.

Talking of which .....

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm


Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the

religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging

Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land

of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every

Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without

her husband's authorization, and a slave without his masters' permission.


This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is
a truth not to be questioned. While other nationalisms consist of

material, human and territorial considerations, the nationality of Hamas

also carries, in addition to all those, the all important divine factors

which lend to it its spirit and life; so much so that it connects with the

origin of the spirit and the source of life and raises in the skies of the

Homeland the Banner of the Lord, thus inexorably connecting earth with

Heaven.

So, Jafar, what we have here is a bunch of terrorists who exhort and revere Jihad, and speak of it in such glowing terms as to be interpreted as something coming from 'divine' inspiration. Hey, they even include a command that none of that should ever be open to questioning !!

So ... tell me more about the 'nutters' responsible for THIS, Jafar. I really think you should .. you, being a supporter, and all ...


Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed, (11:1)

and

There is no changing the Words of Allah (10:64)

There is no abrogation in the Qur'aan as you suggest. There is only adding to previous verses and improving upon the information bit by bit.

Can you arrange for a Hamas spokesman to offer his thoughts on any of this ... ?


The fundamentalist Christian site you quoted above shows the author to have little understanding of Islam, it's doctrine or of the Qur'aan.

The so called "sword verse" is not an abrogation of peace verses, but an allowance for self defence as Muslims at the time were under attack and being killed.

And as we 'all know', Hamas NEVER fires rockets at Israel before Israel attacks first ... eh ?

Pull the other one, Jafar.

And for your information, America had not attacked Muslims, nor launched any War on Terror, BEFORE 9/11 occurred !!


Allah says in the Qur'aan...

Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? (2:106)

http://c00022506.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/2_106.png
The "revelations" above or "Ayaatin" refer not only to the Qur'aan but to the Torah and Gospel that came before. The Qur'aan abrogates them if you like but only to make them better understood or to give extra clarity. Likewise there is a progressive prohibition on alcohol in the Qur'aan to help people quit it. They were drinking a lot at the time.

First alcohol is just bad and you should stop drinking, to prohibition of praying while intoxicated, to total prohibition.

They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. (2:219)

then

O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter (4:43)

Then

O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed. (5:90)

It's like the ban on smoking in restaurants. First smoking is bad and you are encouraged to quit, to smoking being banned indoors only, to being totally banned even in outside areas that were previously set aside for smokers before the ban. Is each law abrogating the other, or is it improving upon the first concept and that is to quit smoking?

I'd say 'a bit' of both. It's pretty much Socialist in character, in its way ... building up a mindset, over time, through staged legislative steps. To slowly force a mindset on people, over time.

A basis for brainwashing ? Could explain much ...


And the "verse of the sword" as referenced by your fundie Christian anti-Islamic site has nothing to do with other peaceful verses. It was a simple dissolving of treaties with those who were attacking Muslims around 630AD and permission to fight back. It wasn't at all an abrogation of any of the "peaceful" verses. It had nothing to do with them despite your site saying so.

I'm no expert on this stuff. Nonetheless, 630 AD is rather early on. And I've seen evidence that verses MORE 'warlike' supersede earlier Quranic offerings.

Indeed ... if that were untrue, how on earth could Hamas ever find a basis for its present-day barbarities ? Barbarities it insists it 'doesn't want questioned' !

You've disdained the 'nutter' ravings of Mullahs and Ayatollahs. How about Muslim clerics ... are they, too, to be ignored ??

Abu Hamza was one such (.. he of Finsbury Park fame, ultimately extradited to the US on terrorism charges).

Then again ...

http://mostintolerantreligion.com/2013/12/20/radical-islamic-cleric-its-ok-to-blow-yourself-up-for-allah/


.... In the interview, Bakri was justifying the recent bombings of Hezbollah targets in Lebanon and the Iranian embassy in Beirut.
“When a [martyrdom-seeker] wishes to please Allah, the pinnacle of what he can do is to die for His sake, in a justified battle or confrontation with the enemies of Allah – in order to elevate the word of Allah – and attains either victory for the religion of Allah or martyrdom,” he explained.

“Who is a martyr is known to Allah alone. When somebody dies on the battlefield, we say that we consider him a martyr but that he will be judged by Allah, because the Prophet Muhammad forbade us from declaring anyone a martyr ourselves,” said Bakri.

He stressed, “Blowing oneself up as part of fighting for the sake of Allah is considered to be in keeping with Islamic law, within certain constraints. The proof is that if someone blew himself up in an Israeli embassy, he would be praised by all. This is evident in history. Many groups – even non-Muslim groups – praise those who die for their ideology.”

Bakri went on to say that “blowing oneself up for the sake of Allah is acceptable, so long as the target is legitimate,” meaning that even Muslims are legitimate targets of suicide bombings.

“With regard to the two young men [who committed the Beirut suicide attacks], I pray that Allah will accept them as martyrs and absolve their sins, and that He will also accept as martyrs those who were killed there by mistake,” he declared.

Bakri, along with infamous British Islamist Anjem Choudary, was the founder of a British Islamist group called ‘Al Muhajiroun’, which was eventually banned in the UK. He currently lives in Lebanon after leaving Britain following terror attacks at the London Underground several years ago.

Let me guess. He's, er'm, just 'another nutter'. Cleric .. or not.

Aren't they 'all', Jafar ? Eh ?

[aboutime]

Sir Drummond. Are you as tired of the endless 'jafar defensive tactics' as I am?

Hamas, and every other known terrorist group around the world could make claims of being PEACE LOVING, tolerant people, while helping IRAN detonate Chemical Weapons over Israel....killing possibly thousands, and we'd hear nothing but APPLAUSE, and Total Defensive Accolades from jafar.

Hypocrisy, hidden behind hatred, with crossed-fingers, coming from OZ is...Nothing short of dumb.

[jafar00]

You're indulging in pedantry to make a fairly cheap point ?

.. OK, then. They call themselves MUSLIM. They tell us that they're fighting for ISLAM.

Do you deny that they do ?

If I said I was a Jew while I chowed down on a bacon butty, would you believe me?


Yes. They speak of furthering the Islamic cause ...

Speaking from a Muslim's point of view, they only appear to be speaking of furthering their own political aspirations.


'Nice' indeed ... although I'll leave you to judge how it compares with Mohammed's wholly unhealthy preoccupation with children ...

Insults do not make an argument. Especially when they are wrapped in lies.


And ... how lost is it on YOU, that - despite your stance - you're nonetheless a persistent supporter of an Islamic terrorist group that thinks nothing of strapping bombs on to children, and bombing Israeli territory and citizens indiscriminately !
Since when have I supported the group you are obsessed with?


No more than I can explain ever wanting to slaughter innocent people for the sake of a religion started by a paedophile ... no.

When I answer a question, I at least try and fill my answer with some substance. I try to answer you respectfully but when you fail to have a reasonable argument, you resort to insults.

Well, insults fall on deaf ears so do yourself a favour.....



Who did you have in mind, Jafar ?

I would very much like to accept such a description as being true of you. Nevertheless, your support of Hamas remains undimmed. Or .. would you NOW, FINALLY, care to renounce your support of those terrorists ??
I have said on other occasions, I do not support Hamas, I only support their struggle against Israeli oppression. You seem to be deaf to this and a great many other things I say.


As for 'scripture' ... I don't know to what extent the process of abrogation nullifies or alters applicability. It may do so, completely. But then ... it seems to me that the Quran is set up so as to be disguised as something it's not .. according to a Muslim's need of the moment.

And it still remains the case that MANY terrorist groups, CLEAR ACROSS THE WORLD, FIND INSPIRATION FOR THEIR BARBARITIES FROM ISLAM ... whether you like it or not.

Hamas is one. Hezbollah another. Al Qaeda yet another. And so it goes on ....

They may try to use Islam as an excuse. They even quote verses with sinister enough sounding English translations knowing full well that their intended audience doesn't know the difference.
Their intention is to fool you and make you afraid, and well you let them win in that regard ;)


I do, don't I ? Do you wish I didn't, Jafar ?

It's called 'EVIDENCE' of what I assert. And I shall continue to post such evidence, as and when I become aware of it.

Talking of which .....

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818.htm

Evidence? What evidence? You post only opinions from websites that are set up for the express purpose of being against Islam.
As for the link above, don't force me into posting the bunny with a pancake on his head pic in response because Hama's charter has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this conversation.


So, Jafar, what we have here is a bunch of terrorists who exhort and revere Jihad, and speak of it in such glowing terms as to be interpreted as something coming from 'divine' inspiration. Hey, they even include a command that none of that should ever be open to questioning !!

So ... tell me more about the 'nutters' responsible for THIS, Jafar. I really think you should .. you, being a supporter, and all ...

Whatever you think inspires them, the bottom line is that they are locked in an illegal collective punishment situation in Gaza and they will say and do anything to try and break free from the yolk of Israeli oppression. This conflict has been going on now for more than 60 years. Hamas haven't even existed for half that time.


Can you arrange for a Hamas spokesman to offer his thoughts on any of this ... ?

Do you know any? :p


And as we 'all know', Hamas NEVER fires rockets at Israel before Israel attacks first ... eh ?

Pull the other one, Jafar.

Hamas didn't exist in 1948 when the Zionists rolled in and declared Palestine to now be the Jewish State of Israel so yes, Hamas didn't attack first.


And for your information, America had not attacked Muslims, nor launched any War on Terror, BEFORE 9/11 occurred !!
How about just one example then? What was the attack on Iraq, and the years of sanctions that killed over 500,000 children that was "worth it" according to Madeleine Albright?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE

Were you careful not to kill any innocent Muslims then?




I'm no expert on this stuff. Nonetheless, 630 AD is rather early on. And I've seen evidence that verses MORE 'warlike' supersede earlier Quranic offerings.

Indeed ... if that were untrue, how on earth could Hamas ever find a basis for its present-day barbarities ? Barbarities it insists it 'doesn't want questioned' !

You've disdained the 'nutter' ravings of Mullahs and Ayatollahs. How about Muslim clerics ... are they, too, to be ignored ??

Abu Hamza was one such (.. he of Finsbury Park fame, ultimately extradited to the US on terrorism charges).

Then again ...

http://mostintolerantreligion.com/2013/12/20/radical-islamic-cleric-its-ok-to-blow-yourself-up-for-allah/



Let me guess. He's, er'm, just 'another nutter'. Cleric .. or not.

Aren't they 'all', Jafar ? Eh ?

Yes he is a nutter. You can hear in the video, the presenter was trying to argue that he was wrong (not translated by Memri nor was the other side of the story presented in order to make Islam look bad).

How would he justify his comments to Hadiths such as the one I quote below?


It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: He who killed himself with steel (weapon) would be the eternal denizen of the Fire of Hell and he would have that weapon in his hand and would be thrusting that in his stomach for ever and ever, he who drank poison and killed himself would sip that in the Fire of Hell where he is doomed for ever and ever; and he who killed himself by falling from (the top of) a mountain would constantly fall in the Fire of Hell and would live there for ever and ever.


http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/129-Sahih%20Muslim%20Book%2001.%20Faith/8585-sahih-muslim-book-001-hadith-number-0199.html

Martyrs do not seek to be killed but are killed in the battle by the enemy. If you seek to be killed by your own hand, you are not a martyr. You are just an idiot who will burn in hell for eternity.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.hadithcollection.com/sahihmuslim/129-Sahih%20Muslim%20Book%2001.%20Faith/8585-sahih-muslim-book-001-hadith-number-0199.html

Martyrs do not seek to be killed but are killed in the battle by the enemy. If you seek to be killed by your own hand, you are not a martyr. You are just an idiot who will burn in hell for eternity.

Yet many Muslims are taught that martyrdom is a core part of Jihad. And taught deliberate self-sacrifice is the way to go--as in suicide bombing innocent women and children for greater terroristic effect!

You can deny reality all you like but the death toll clearly proves your error. -Tyr

[Drummond]

If I said I was a Jew while I chowed down on a bacon butty, would you believe me?

If provided with proof of it, I'd have to.

If provided with proof that there are many terrorist groups out there, calling themselves Muslim, killing and maiming to fight for their Islamic cause ... AND WE SEE THE PROOF, ALMOST DAILY ... then I have to accept that proof.

Would you have me believe, Jafar, that Hamas doesn't exist ? Or that their Charter doesn't ? Or that they're not committed, as they claim, to Jihadist battles in the service of their religion ??

AND YOU NEVER, WHEN IT COUNTS, WAVER IN YOUR SUPPORT OF WHAT THEY DO, JAFAR. YOU ADMIT YOU SUPPORT THEIR 'STRUGGLE'. THEY HAVE BUT ONE WAY OF EXPRESSING THAT 'STRUGGLE'.


Speaking from a Muslim's point of view, they only appear to be speaking of furthering their own political aspirations.

Hamas, Jafar, would evidently disagree. Yes, they're fighting a political cause, IN THE SERVICE OF ISLAM. THEY MAKE PLAIN THEIR EXPECTATION THAT ALL MUSLIMS FOLLOW THEIR PATH. ALL !!


Insults do not make an argument. Especially when they are wrapped in lies.

Truth, Jafar. You well know what's true of Mohammed's child bride.


Since when have I supported the group you are obsessed with?

YOU NOW DENY SUPPORTING HAMAS ???


When I answer a question, I at least try and fill my answer with some substance. I try to answer you respectfully but when you fail to have a reasonable argument, you resort to insults.

I frequently offer material to back up my own answers. These you denigrate, and summarily dismiss as 'hate sites'. Your own idea of a reasonable argument is all too often to deny what you prefer not to accept THROUGH INSULTING THE SOURCE OF THE MATERIAL.


I have said on other occasions, I do not support Hamas, I only support their struggle against Israeli oppression.

SO ... make up your mind !! You 'support their struggle' ... so ... you support Hamas, even when denying it !!

-- Hamas, A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

How do they express their supposed 'struggle', Jafar ? Peacefully ? OR THROUGH TERRORIST ACTS ??


They may try to use Islam as an excuse. They even quote verses with sinister enough sounding English translations knowing full well that their intended audience doesn't know the difference.
Their intention is to fool you and make you afraid, and well you let them win in that regard ;)

So they're lying, eh ? So many groups, from so many countries, all make up, and stick to, the SAME lies ?? All totally coincidentally ?


Evidence? What evidence? You post only opinions from websites that are set up for the express purpose of being against Islam.

Because THEY'VE BEEN GIVEN AMPLE EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE RIGHT TO OPPOSE IT.

Evidence which they publish.

Evidence we all know about.

Evidence which costs innocent people their lives. Evidence which maims. Which leaves behind bereaved loved ones.

Do you really think they have NO RIGHT TO EXPRESS THE UGLY TRUTH ?


As for the link above, don't force me into posting the bunny with a pancake on his head pic in response because Hama's charter has absolutely nothing to do with anything in this conversation.

For the umpteenth time - Hamas are terrorists, they are Islamist, they demand that all Muslims follow their example, AND that this is an example absolutely not open to question !!!


Whatever you think inspires them, the bottom line is that they are locked in an illegal collective punishment situation in Gaza and they will say and do anything to try and break free from the yolk of Israeli oppression. This conflict has been going on now for more than 60 years. Hamas haven't even existed for half that time.

Hamas claim to be fighting for a nonexistent people ... 'Palestinians'. They claim sovereign rights for that 'people', for a territory NEVER defined as a Nation State. Further, their aims aren't defensive ... their dearest wish is to attack, even destroy, the State of Israel. Like all other terrorists, they are SAVAGE AGGRESSORS, subhuman enough to even turn their children into walking bombs !!!

Yes, they are Islamic terrorists. You admit you support their 'struggle'. WHICH PUTS YOU IN THE POSITION OF SUPPORTING TERRORISTS, AND TERRORISM.


Do you know any? :p

YOU are their supporter !!!


Hamas didn't exist in 1948 when the Zionists rolled in and declared Palestine to now be the Jewish State of Israel so yes, Hamas didn't attack first.

Palestine, I repeat, was NEVER a Nation State. And the Jewish people didn't 'just roll in' ... the UN agreed their right to exist !

What were they promptly met with ? WAR, from Arabs fuelled with hatred of Jews.


How about just one example then? What was the attack on Iraq, and the years of sanctions that killed over 500,000 children that was "worth it" according to Madeleine Albright?

It was, as you well know, the furtherance of an ongoing War on Terror, started as a reaction to 9/11, proceeded with because there was a great need to neutralise Islamic terrorism !!

Iraq's WMD situation needed to be resolved. Saddam refused to usefully comply with UN Resolution 1441. Saddam was a known sponsor of terrorism, was known to foster links with them. So the WMD situation HAD to be resolved ... to defend the West's security.


Were you careful not to kill any innocent Muslims then?

Coalition forces never deliberately targeted innocents. But terrorists do it all the time.


Yes he is a nutter. You can hear in the video, the presenter was trying to argue that he was wrong (not translated by Memri nor was the other side of the story presented in order to make Islam look bad).

Ah, so he was simultaneously 'a nutter', and also MALIGNED ?

You need to make up your mind. Are you for or against ?


How would he justify his comments to Hadiths such as the one I quote below?

Ask HIM.


Martyrs do not seek to be killed but are killed in the battle by the enemy. If you seek to be killed by your own hand, you are not a martyr. You are just an idiot who will burn in hell for eternity.

Really ?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/018-suicide-bombing.htm




Bukhari (52:54) - The words of Muhammad: "I would love to be martyred in Al1ah's Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred." This is why modern-day Jihadists often say that they love death.

Muslim (20:4678) - During the battle of Uhud, Muhammad was desperate to push men into battle. He promised paradise for those who would martyr themselves, prompting a young man who was eating dates to throw them away and rush to his death.

Muslim (20:4655) - A man asks Muhammad "which of men is the best?" Muhammad replies that it is the man who is always ready for battle and flies into it "seeking death at places where it can be expected." (Tellingly perhaps, the next most saintly man in Islam is the hermit who lives in isolation "sparing men from his mischief.")

Muslim (20:4681) - "Surely, the gates of Paradise are under the shadows of the swords." After hearing Muhammad say that martyrdom leads to paradise, a young man pulls his sword and breaks the sheath (indicating that he has no intention of returning) then flings himself into battle until he is killed.

--- Er'm. Perhaps you really need to rethink your position on that one, Jafar.:p:terror::terror:

Seems to me that life is extremely cheap to a Muslim terrorist -- be they the lives of victims OR aggressors ...

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. Are you as tired of the endless 'jafar defensive tactics' as I am?

Very tired indeed, Aboutime. Especially of the 'I don't support terrorists, but I support what Hamas does' line ... which can only add up to support of terrorism !!


Hamas, and every other known terrorist group around the world could make claims of being PEACE LOVING, tolerant people, while helping IRAN detonate Chemical Weapons over Israel....killing possibly thousands, and we'd hear nothing but APPLAUSE, and Total Defensive Accolades from jafar.

I know ...


Hypocrisy, hidden behind hatred, with crossed-fingers, coming from OZ is...Nothing short of dumb.

Dumb indeed. It's not as though there's the remotest chance of any of it being convincing.

[jafar00]

Yet many Muslims are taught that martyrdom is a core part of Jihad. And taught deliberate self-sacrifice is the way to go--as in suicide bombing innocent women and children for greater terroristic effect!

You can deny reality all you like but the death toll clearly proves your error. -Tyr

Well, I have been taught the opposite and I don't know anyone who would even think of going against his religion by suicide.


If provided with proof of it, I'd have to.

If provided with proof that there are many terrorist groups out there, calling themselves Muslim, killing and maiming to fight for their Islamic cause ... AND WE SEE THE PROOF, ALMOST DAILY ... then I have to accept that proof.

But, you have no proof. Only their word. I have given you many words that show that Islam condemns terrorism, yet you choose to ignore that and just go with the word of terrorists. It's like you support them. Maybe you work for them by helping their propaganda along? :)


Would you have me believe, Jafar, that Hamas doesn't exist ? Or that their Charter doesn't ? Or that they're not committed, as they claim, to Jihadist battles in the service of their religion ??

AND YOU NEVER, WHEN IT COUNTS, WAVER IN YOUR SUPPORT OF WHAT THEY DO, JAFAR. YOU ADMIT YOU SUPPORT THEIR 'STRUGGLE'. THEY HAVE BUT ONE WAY OF EXPRESSING THAT 'STRUGGLE'.

How would you deal with fighting against an enemy that has you in a box and surrounded by superior weaponry and religious zealots in uniform firing them at you?


Hamas, Jafar, would evidently disagree. Yes, they're fighting a political cause, IN THE SERVICE OF ISLAM. THEY MAKE PLAIN THEIR EXPECTATION THAT ALL MUSLIMS FOLLOW THEIR PATH. ALL !!

Hamas have done things that are questionable. I'm sure you would do things you aren't proud of if you were in the same boat.


Truth, Jafar. You well know what's true of Mohammed's child bride.

We have discussed this at length before haven't we? Aisha was married with her father's blessing and with the blessing of all who lived at that time. It was completely normal for such a marriage in that time.

Do you happen to know the ages of Mohamed's (saw) other brides? Do you know how great and revered Aisha became?



YOU NOW DENY SUPPORTING HAMAS ???

Read what I have said before. I support their cause, not the organisation. Every human with a shred of good in his heart has to support the freedom of oppressed people, especially when they are on the back foot.


I frequently offer material to back up my own answers. These you denigrate, and summarily dismiss as 'hate sites'. Your own idea of a reasonable argument is all too often to deny what you prefer not to accept THROUGH INSULTING THE SOURCE OF THE MATERIAL.

If I started using sites like http://www.jewwatch.com/ as my main source of information about Judaism, you would be sceptical too. You just don't get any information about Islam from Muslims. You get it only from websites set up to be anti Islam only.

Or for another example, do you think I would find any positive reviews about Coca Cola on pepsi.com? :)


SO ... make up your mind !! You 'support their struggle' ... so ... you support Hamas, even when denying it !!

-- Hamas, A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.

How do they express their supposed 'struggle', Jafar ? Peacefully ? OR THROUGH TERRORIST ACTS ??

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. They are doing whatever they can to fight back even if it means shooting off a wildly inaccurate home made missile barrage in Israel's general direction because it's all they have.


So they're lying, eh ? So many groups, from so many countries, all make up, and stick to, the SAME lies ?? All totally coincidentally ?

They all fall back to Wahhabism which is something that wouldn't exist if it weren't for the British Secret Service meddling in affairs (http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahhabies/htm/spy1.htm) they shouldn't have been.


Because THEY'VE BEEN GIVEN AMPLE EVIDENCE THAT THEY ARE RIGHT TO OPPOSE IT.

Evidence which they publish.

Evidence we all know about.

Evidence which costs innocent people their lives. Evidence which maims. Which leaves behind bereaved loved ones.

Do you really think they have NO RIGHT TO EXPRESS THE UGLY TRUTH ?

They have no evidence at all! Just a list of crimes they themselves attribute to Islam to further their anti Islamic agenda.


For the umpteenth time - Hamas are terrorists, they are Islamist, they demand that all Muslims follow their example, AND that this is an example absolutely not open to question !!!

I for one would not follow them unless I was a young Palestinian who's family had been killed in cold blood by the Israelis


Hamas claim to be fighting for a nonexistent people ... 'Palestinians'. They claim sovereign rights for that 'people', for a territory NEVER defined as a Nation State. Further, their aims aren't defensive ... their dearest wish is to attack, even destroy, the State of Israel. Like all other terrorists, they are SAVAGE AGGRESSORS, subhuman enough to even turn their children into walking bombs !!!

There you go. A non existent people? Is that your EDL bigotry shining through?

Palestine does very much exist and has done for a long time. They even have their own google page https://www.google.ps/

http://www.english.rfi.fr/sites/english.filesrfi/dynimagecache/0/699/1296/968/344/257/sites/images.rfi.fr/files/aef_image/palestine%20onu_0.JPG



Palestine, I repeat, was NEVER a Nation State. And the Jewish people didn't 'just roll in' ... the UN agreed their right to exist!

What were they promptly met with ? WAR, from Arabs fuelled with hatred of Jews.

Did they ask the Palestinians, who identified as and still do identify as Palestinians if it was ok to give up their ancestral homes before rolling in?


It was, as you well know, the furtherance of an ongoing War on Terror, started as a reaction to 9/11, proceeded with because there was a great need to neutralise Islamic terrorism !!

Iraq's WMD situation needed to be resolved. Saddam refused to usefully comply with UN Resolution 1441. Saddam was a known sponsor of terrorism, was known to foster links with them. So the WMD situation HAD to be resolved ... to defend the West's security.

Are you talking about Saddam's non existent WMDs and the war that was preceded by lies?

Ah, so he was simultaneously 'a nutter', and also MALIGNED ?

You need to make up your mind. Are you for or against ?


--- Er'm. Perhaps you really need to rethink your position on that one, Jafar.:p:terror::terror:

Seems to me that life is extremely cheap to a Muslim terrorist -- be they the lives of victims OR aggressors ...

Seems to me that you are quoting a hate site again which is quoting hadiths willy nilly without any knowledge about them.

To be killed in battle is noble. Don't you honour your own fallen soldiers every year on armistice day and other days in the year?
However to kill yourself is both a sin and stupid. It is a direct violation of the Qur'aan.

O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! (4:29)

Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. (6:151)

And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good. (2:195)

etc.....

[Drummond]

Well, I have been taught the opposite and I don't know anyone who would even think of going against his religion by suicide.

... which proves what ? Do you claim to know millions of Muslims ?


But, you have no proof. Only their word.

The word of so MANY of them, from so many countries, Jafar. Way too much to be mere coincidence.


I have given you many words that show that Islam condemns terrorism, yet you choose to ignore that and just go with the word of terrorists. It's like you support them. Maybe you work for them by helping their propaganda along? :)

That's like saying that those conducting the Nuremberg Trials were advertising the Nazi Holocaustal actions. I assure you that the prosecutors were set AGAINST the Nazi scum they were putting on trial.

As for 'the word of terrorists' .. yet again, I have to point out that it's SO MANY OF THEM who are involved, from SO MANY countries. Unless Islam truly does inspire them to do what they do, how do you explain such numbers of them, all claiming the same inspirational source as their reason for killing and maiming ??

Be honest, Jafar. Short of conceding what I say is the truth, you have NO way of explaining that.


How would you deal with fighting against an enemy that has you in a box and surrounded by superior weaponry and religious zealots in uniform firing them at you?

One thing I would NOT do is summarily rule out all possibility of a peaceful solution. The Hamas Charter does JUST that - proving in the process who's the real aggressor !

And your argument cannot apply to the Israelis. Israelis only defend against aggressors. If there were nothing to defend against, there'd be no hostile actions.


Hamas have done things that are questionable. I'm sure you would do things you aren't proud of if you were in the same boat.

Indeed ?

Are you claiming, for example, that I'd turn children into walking bombs ???

Hamas willingly stoops to such a subhuman barbarity as that.


We have discussed this at length before haven't we? Aisha was married with her father's blessing and with the blessing of all who lived at that time. It was completely normal for such a marriage in that time.

But, even if I accept that argument - by today's standards, that behaviour would be abhorrent.

So explain, Jafar, why any 'civilised' Muslim, today, looks upon Mohammed with anything other than revulsion ? Why does Mohammed gain ANY respect AT ALL ? Much less actual REVERENCE !!!


Do you happen to know the ages of Mohamed's (saw) other brides? Do you know how great and revered Aisha became?

I tend not to dwell on paedophilia, Jafar. I can't speak for Muslims in that regard.


Read what I have said before. I support their cause, not the organisation. Every human with a shred of good in his heart has to support the freedom of oppressed people, especially when they are on the back foot.

Their cause, Jafar, is permanent hostility against Israelis and the very existence of the State of Israel. Their cause is to stoop to any lengths to kill and maim in the furtherance of such racial hatred. And their methodology involves, on occassions, CHILD MURDER OF THEIR OWN CHILDREN.

Perhaps you find this easy to support. But there are those of us - NON-Muslims - who do NOT.


If I started using sites like http://www.jewwatch.com/ as my main source of information about Judaism, you would be sceptical too. You just don't get any information about Islam from Muslims. You get it only from websites set up to be anti Islam only.

Not really convincing, Jafar.

You've been repeatedly challenged to set up a thread on this forum which shows a catalogue of 'atrocities' remotely comparable to the one which ALREADY exists here, detailing Muslim terrorist-caused death tolls. It's a challenge you've not tried to rise to. Your argument against the thread already here is that its material comes from 'hate sites' ... YET ... you CANNOT DISPROVE THE MATERIAL SUPPLIED.


One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. They are doing whatever they can to fight back even if it means shooting off a wildly inaccurate home made missile barrage in Israel's general direction because it's all they have.

It's not all they have, Jafar.

They also have Hamas's Charter, which mandates Hamas and their followers to REJECT ANY LIKELIHOOD OF ANY PEACEFUL SOLUTIONS.

Warmongers, Jafar, are not 'freedom fighters'.


They all fall back to Wahhabism which is something that wouldn't exist if it weren't for the British Secret Service meddling in affairs (http://www.sunna.info/antiwahabies/wahhabies/htm/spy1.htm) they shouldn't have been.

Oh, so, they are all willing dupes of the BRITISH, now ??? That, Jafar, is just laughable. And in case you missed it, London was attacked several years ago by Islamic terrorists, resulting in carnage on its public transport system.

Jafar ... what's the point of debating this with you ? Blaming - repeatedly - the British (!!), is ridiculous and offensive .. like your laughably claiming that Anjem Choudary is a MI6 stooge. You go to extremes to argue your corner, because you HAVE to. It's the only way you can put any sort of case together.

Islamic terrorism is a worldwide reality, and the world's intelligence agencies treat it as what it is. You know it. I know it. Anyone reading this thread knows it. But you argue on, regardless.

Pointlessly.

[jafar00]

... which proves what ? Do you claim to know millions of Muslims ?

No but I have been in many Mosques, some that hold 10's of thousands of people yet I have never heard of such talk in them.


The word of so MANY of them, from so many countries, Jafar. Way too much to be mere coincidence.

The word of so many of whom? Terrorists? Do you place value on their words? I wouldn't give them the time of day.


That's like saying that those conducting the Nuremberg Trials were advertising the Nazi Holocaustal actions. I assure you that the prosecutors were set AGAINST the Nazi scum they were putting on trial.

As for 'the word of terrorists' .. yet again, I have to point out that it's SO MANY OF THEM who are involved, from SO MANY countries. Unless Islam truly does inspire them to do what they do, how do you explain such numbers of them, all claiming the same inspirational source as their reason for killing and maiming ??

Sure they have the same inspiration. Money, power, and corruption.


One thing I would NOT do is summarily rule out all possibility of a peaceful solution. The Hamas Charter does JUST that - proving in the process who's the real aggressor !

And your argument cannot apply to the Israelis. Israelis only defend against aggressors. If there were nothing to defend against, there'd be no hostile actions.

Who is the aggressor? Who has who locked in a cage?


Are you claiming, for example, that I'd turn children into walking bombs ???

Hamas willingly stoops to such a subhuman barbarity as that.

In Palestine, you are an adult at 16. I do not agree with suicide bombings as I have already said but when you have been occupied for several decades with no hope of a future, you might yourself become desperate. Don't be quick to assume that your 1st world society wouldn't descend into barbarity and chaos when subjected to the same oppression and misery. I hear New Orleans got pretty bad after the hurricane, and that was just a natural disaster. Imagine if it had been a foreign invasion followed by subjugation?


But, even if I accept that argument - by today's standards, that behaviour would be abhorrent.

So explain, Jafar, why any 'civilised' Muslim, today, looks upon Mohammed with anything other than revulsion ? Why does Mohammed gain ANY respect AT ALL ? Much less actual REVERENCE !!!

You just said it yourself. BY TODAY'S STANDARDS. Nobody else in history is judged by you for doing exactly the same thing, yet you concentrate on Mohamed (saw). Is it just that you need to cling to something in order to attempt further insults against Islam?

It is pointless to use today's standards to judge what was acceptable 1400 years ago.


Their cause, Jafar, is permanent hostility against Israelis and the very existence of the State of Israel. Their cause is to stoop to any lengths to kill and maim in the furtherance of such racial hatred. And their methodology involves, on occassions, CHILD MURDER OF THEIR OWN CHILDREN.

Perhaps you find this easy to support. But there are those of us - NON-Muslims - who do NOT.

There are few countries that support Israel's brutal subjugation of the Palestinian people the same as they don't support unconventional means of fighting back by the Palestinians.

I notice your double standard in that regard. You don't give the Palestinians the right to fight for freedom, but support Israel's brutality.

Not really convincing, Jafar.


You've been repeatedly challenged to set up a thread on this forum which shows a catalogue of 'atrocities' remotely comparable to the one which ALREADY exists here, detailing Muslim terrorist-caused death tolls. It's a challenge you've not tried to rise to. Your argument against the thread already here is that its material comes from 'hate sites' ... YET ... you CANNOT DISPROVE THE MATERIAL SUPPLIED.

I don't have to disprove something that has nothing to prove in the first place except for putrid propaganda.

Do you want to give me one attack to discuss and we start from there? You prove it is Islamic in nature, and I will have to prove otherwise.


It's not all they have, Jafar.

They also have Hamas's Charter, which mandates Hamas and their followers to REJECT ANY LIKELIHOOD OF ANY PEACEFUL SOLUTIONS.

Warmongers, Jafar, are not 'freedom fighters'.

Yes it is all they have. Name a country that has managed to supply them with advanced weapons and got them through the blockade?


Oh, so, they are all willing dupes of the BRITISH, now ??? That, Jafar, is just laughable. And in case you missed it, London was attacked several years ago by Islamic terrorists, resulting in carnage on its public transport system.

That was a clear false flag attack and you know it. Also a violation of Islam.


Jafar ... what's the point of debating this with you ? Blaming - repeatedly - the British (!!), is ridiculous and offensive .. like your laughably claiming that Anjem Choudary is a MI6 stooge. You go to extremes to argue your corner, because you HAVE to. It's the only way you can put any sort of case together.

Islamic terrorism is a worldwide reality, and the world's intelligence agencies treat it as what it is. You know it. I know it. Anyone reading this thread knows it. But you argue on, regardless.

Pointlessly.

I only blame the British because the British are to blame. Your secret service has a lot to answer for. Their meddling has caused countless suffering to millions of people for a very long time.