Obama warns Russia of 'costs' for any Ukraine intervention

[jimnyc]

Can't wait to hear the liberals on this one. Obama sticking his nose into another country where we aren't involved. The liberals HATE that and I'm sure will be condemning it through the stratosphere! Seriously though, as we know that won't happen... Do other major countries like Russia even flinch when Obama blabs crap like this? Putin is undoubtedly laughing at him.


President Obama bluntly warned Russia Friday that it will face international condemnation as well as unspecified "costs" for any military intervention in neighboring Ukraine.

"We are now deeply concerned by reports of military movements taken by the Russian Federation inside of Ukraine," Obama said in a hastily arranged public statement from the White House briefing room.

The president did not confirm Moscow's apparent role in the deployments but declared that any such actions would be "deeply destabilizing" and amount to a "profound interference" in its neighbors' affairs, as well as a violation of international laws.

"There will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine," the president warned.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-comments-on-ukraine-214813649.html

[fj1200]

But he didn't actually say anything. Just babbling platitudes.

[aboutime]

Doesn't matter what Obama, or Kerry say. The rest of the World knows Obama is useless, and his Foreign Policy is only as effective as his fellow Muslim Brotherhood members SAY IT SHOULD BE.
http://icansayit.com/images/Musbrohoodmem.jpg.
OBAMA IS BOWING DOWN TO PUTIN...Not wanting to offend, or insult him, while pretending to be something he is "NOT".

LIKE A MAN WITH ANY COURAGE.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Doesn't matter what Obama, or Kerry say. The rest of the World knows Obama is useless, and his Foreign Policy is only as effective as his fellow Muslim Brotherhood members SAY IT SHOULD BE.
http://icansayit.com/images/Musbrohoodmem.jpg.
OBAMA IS BOWING DOWN TO PUTIN...Not wanting to offend, or insult him, while pretending to be something he is "NOT".

LIKE A MAN WITH ANY COURAGE. Putin does not kiss muslim as enough for Obama to like him. If he did bamboy would be kissing his. To many people haven't a clue what team Obama favors above all other. On another note I bet those two girls are not even his. He strikes me as being a twinkie.:laugh:--Tyr

[glockmail]

Did he draw another red line? :laugh:

The Obama has zero cred; Putin obviously thinks he's a fucking joke.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Did he draw another red line? :laugh:

The Obama has zero cred; Putin obviously thinks he's a fucking joke.

They bought him a new box of crayons and he gonna' draw a yellow line this time. Will be more accurate and all from the get go. :laugh:. I heard he gonna have Hillary film Biden drawing it so as to have a film already on hand to blame :laugh:Tyr

[aboutime]

Pay attention everyone. The ONLY reason Obama draws RED LINES anywhere is...to distract attention from the YELLOW LINE running down his spine.

Putin, and all of the Middle East Nations know Obama is a WUSS, and an American Joke of Liberalism.

Anyone who doubts that. Take a look at Harry Reid. OBAMA'S MENTOR in the Senate....

http://icansayit.com/images/cutrun.jpg

[avatar4321]

No one believes Obama when he says this. He's shown that he isn't going to back anything up.

We are seeing almost the exact same events that started world war 2. I think if the world wants to go to war, we may need to step back and sit this one out. Because they will be gunning for us. We need to be rebuilding our nation which is seriously lacking in character and leadership.

[glockmail]

Let Russia have it. What vital interest do we have against it?

[avatar4321]

we have a treaty with them for one. Oil for another.

But we've seen what the Russians think of Obama's resolve. The Parliment unanimously supported the invasion.

[aboutime]

This thread is comical, funny, and absurd, all in one.

IMAGINE Obama...warning Russia about anything?

Other than yelling "FORE!"

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

This thread is comical, funny, and absurd, all in one.

IMAGINE Obama...warning Russia about anything?

Other than yelling "FORE!" Putin sent him a message laughing at his weal dumbass. The bampunk sent a message back. It said, Just you wait you will be sorry because I will tell Soros you are not obeying me! :laugh: Putin shot back with, Soros pulls your strings dumbass -NOT MINE! You are his pet monkey not me..

[jafar00]

Did he draw another red line? :laugh:

The Obama has zero cred; Putin obviously thinks he's a fucking joke.

Our idiot in charge also threatened Putin who I am sure is more likely to die from laughter over all of this.

[tailfins]

Our idiot in charge also threatened Putin who I am sure is more likely to die from laughter over all of this.

If he was a leftie, you wouldn't be complaining even if he was a total appeaser.

[jafar00]

If he was a leftie, you wouldn't be complaining even if he was a total appeaser.

I would prefer it if our embarrassment of a leader would just stay out of international affairs. Within months of taking office he had single handedly strained relations between us and most of Asia to our immediate North. Now he wants to piss off Russia too?

[Voted4Reagan]

Did he draw another red line? :laugh:

The Obama has zero cred; Putin obviously thinks he's a fucking joke.


http://youtu.be/7lRoVFdbBNc

[Jeff]

Did he draw another red line? :laugh:

The Obama has zero cred; Putin obviously thinks he's a fucking joke.


Yes our fearless leader is good about drawing lines in the sand, hell if I remember right he is so good at it that he drew many extras as the world leaders laughed at him and crossed his lines :laugh:

[Kathianne]

There really are no 'safe times' there are only 'dangerous and more dangerous times'. In the past 100 years or so, the foreign policies of the US have a lot to do with the level of 'dangerous,' the past 6 years have escalated the dangers:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/president-obamas-foreign-policy-is-based-on-fantasy/2014/03/02/c7854436-a238-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_print.html


President Obama’s foreign policy is based on fantasy By Editorial Board (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-posts-view/2011/12/07/gIQAoEIscO_page.html), Published: March 2 FOR FIVE YEARS, President Obama has led a foreign policy based more on how he thinks the world should operate than on reality. It was a world in which (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ukraine-crisis-tests-obamas-foreign-policy-focus-on-diplomacy-over-military-force/2014/03/01/c83ec62c-a157-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html) “the tide of war is receding (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/checkpoint-washington/post/obamas-afghanistan-speech-full-text/2011/06/22/AGHdcUgH_blog.html)” and the United States could, without much risk, radically reduce the size of its armed forces. Other leaders, in this vision, would behave rationally and in the interest of their people and the world. Invasions, brute force, great-power games and shifting alliances — these were things of the past. Secretary of State John F. Kerry displayed this mindset on ABC’s “This Week” Sunday when he said, of Russia’s invasion of neighboring Ukraine, “It’s a 19th century act in the 21st century (http://abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/week-transcript-john-kerry/story?id=22720806).”
That’s a nice thought, and we all know what he means. A country’s standing is no longer measured in throw-weight or battalions. The world is too interconnected to break into blocs. A small country that plugs into cyberspace can deliver more prosperity to its people (think Singapore or Estonia) than a giant with natural resources and standing armies.
Unfortunately, Russian President Vladimir Putin has not received the memo on 21st-century behavior. Neither has China’s president, Xi Jinping (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/obamas-asia-rebalance-turns-into-headache-as-china-japan-relations-spiral-down/2014/01/23/b0a158b8-7f5b-11e3-93c1-0e888170b723_story.html), who is engaging in gunboat diplomacy against Japan and the weaker nations of Southeast Asia. Syrian president Bashar al-Assad (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/syrian-state-media-say-army-killed-175-rebels/2014/02/26/e12d99a2-9f44-11e3-878c-65222df220eb_story.html) is waging a very 20th-century war against his own people, sending helicopters to drop exploding barrels full of screws, nails and other shrapnel onto apartment buildings where families cower in basements. These men will not be deterred by the disapproval of their peers, the weight of world opinion or even disinvestment by Silicon Valley companies. They are concerned primarily with maintaining their holds on power.

...



An essay that the above could have been based upon:

http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2014/03/01/putin-smashes-washingtons-cocoon/


Battle for Ukraine Putin Smashes Washington’s Cocoon

A Politico report (http://m.politico.com/iphone/story/0314/104125.html) calls it “a crisis that no one anticipated.” The Daily Beast, reporting (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/28/u-s-spies-said-no-invasion-putin-disagreed.html) on Friday’s US intelligence assessment that “Vladimir Putin’s military would not invade Ukraine,” quotes a Senate aide claiming that “no one really saw this kind of thing coming.”


Op-eds from all over the legacy press this week helped explained why. Through the rose tinted lenses of a media community deeply convinced that President Obama and his dovish team are the masters of foreign relations, nothing poor Putin did could possibly derail the stately progress of our genius president. There were, we were told, lots of reasons not to worry about Ukraine. War is too costly for Russia’s weak economy. Trade would suffer, the ruble would take a hit. The 2008 war with Georgia is a bad historical comparison, as Ukraine’s territory, population and military are much larger. Invasion would harm Russia’s international standing. Putin doesn’t want to spoil his upcoming G8 summit, or his good press from Sochi. Putin would rather let the new government in Kiev humiliate itself with incompetence than give it an enemy to rally against. Crimea’s Tartars and other anti-Russian ethnic minorities wouldn’t stand for it. Headlines like “Why Russia Won’t Invade Ukraine (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/140980/kimberly-marten/crimean-punishment?nocache=1),” “No, Russia Will Not Intervene in Ukraine (http://world.time.com/2014/02/25/russia-ukraine-putin-intervene/),” and “5 Reasons for Everyone to Calm Down About Crimea (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/02/28/5-reasons-for-everyone-to-calm-down-about-crimea/)” weren’t hard to find in our most eminent publications.


Nobody, including us, is infallible about the future. Giving the public your best thoughts about where things are headed is all a poor pundit (or government analyst) can do. But this massive intellectual breakdown has a lot to do with a common American mindset that is especially built into our intellectual and chattering classes. Well educated, successful and reasonably liberal minded Americans find it very hard to believe that other people actually see the world in different ways. They can see that Vladimir Putin is not a stupid man and that many of his Russian officials are sophisticated and seasoned observers of the world scene. American experts and academics assume that smart people everywhere must want the same things and reach the same conclusions about the way the world works.


How many times did foolishly confident American experts and officials come out with some variant of the phrase “We all share a common interest in a stable and prosperous Ukraine.” We may think that’s true, but Putin doesn’t.


We blame this in part on the absence of true intellectual and ideological diversity in so much of the academy, the policy world and the mainstream media. Most college kids at good schools today know many more people from different races and cultural groups than their grandparents did, but they are much less exposed to people who think outside the left-liberal box. How many faithful New York Times readers have no idea what American conservatives think, much less how Russian oligarchs do? Well bred and well read Americans live in an ideological and cultural cocoon and this makes them fatally slow to understand the very different motivations that animate actors ranging from the Tea Party to the Kremlin to, dare we say it, the Supreme Leader and Guide of the Islamic Republic of Iran.


As far as we can tell, the default assumption guiding our political leadership these days is that the people on the other side of the bargaining table (unless they are mindless Tea Party Republicans) are fundamentally reasonable people who see the world as we do, and are motivated by the same things that motivate us. Many people are, of course, guided by an outlook not all that dissimilar from the standard upper middle class gentry American set of progressive ideas. But some aren’t, and when worlds collide, trouble comes.

...

[Kathianne]

and before Russia sent flood of troops:

http://www.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2014/02/28/red-lines-in-crimea/


Published on February 28, 2014

The Battle for Ukraine Red Lines In Crimea

President Putin is making his move in Ukraine’s Crimea, and once again the West is caught flat-footed.
President Obama stepped up to the podium twenty minutes after the announced time for his talk and gave a short, sharply worded but ultimately vague statement on what looks like a growing and intentional Russian military presence in Crimea.


We shall see how things work out, but at first glance President Putin appears to have stolen yet another march on the sputtering West. As I wrote (http://www.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2014/02/22/springtime-in-kiev-or-just-another-winter-storm/) last week, Putin was under pressure to act quickly and run risks; not for the first time, complacent and unobservant Western leaders underestimated Russian decisiveness and determination to surprise. Washington in particular appears to have been caught flat-footed by Russian moves, and even as Kremlin forces fan out across the restive province, President Obama seemed unsure just what Putin intends.


One can already hear a chorus of people discussing Russia’s Crimean move in the terms people used to describe Hitler’s move into the Rhineland. The Germans are only going into their own back garden, said Britain’s Lord Lothian. George Bernard Shaw told the public that it was like the British moving into Portsmouth. Crimea is historically and culturally more a part of Russia than anything else, we are told. It’s a long way from the United States and what happens there doesn’t really matter very much.


While President Obama is unlikely to take the Bernard Shaw line, he now faces a genuinely difficult moment in the troubled course of his second term foreign policy. Two of the President’s highest goals—progress on nuclear arms control in general and a peaceful end to Iran’s nuclear ambitions—depend in large part on Russia’s willingness to act as an American partner. Just as his Syria strategy (talks at Geneva to prepare a political transition) fell horribly flat when the Russians backed away, his Iran and nuclear strategies would face some very rough sledding if Russia’s promises of help prove hollow.

...

[Kathianne]

Some possible responses that Obama is unlikely to avail himself of:

http://washingtonexaminer.com/what-to-do-about-putins-invasion-of-ukraine/article/2544931


What to do about Putin's invasion of Ukraine? By Michael Barone (http://washingtonexaminer.com/author/michael-barone) | MARCH 2, 2014 AT 5:11 PM

It is obvious that Russia (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/russia) is conducting an invasion of Ukraine (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/ukraine). This violates the 1994 Budapest Memorandum between Russia, Ukraine, the United States and Britain (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/united-kingdom), in which each party agreed to respect the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Russia's claim that it is acting to protect the rights of Russian citizens in Ukraine is redolent of Hitler's claims that he was taking over Czechoslovakia and the free city of Danzig and attacking Poland (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/poland) to protect ethnic Germans. Russia has treaty rights in its naval base in Crimea (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/crimea), but it has gone much farther by taking over the whole peninsula; it is as if the United States, possessed of treaty rights in its base in Guantanamo (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/guantanamo-bay), should send in military forces or auxiliaries into Cuba.

What is the United States prepared to do about this?
Not much, to judge from the brief remarks President Obama (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/barack-obama) made in the White House (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/white-house) press room Friday afternoon before hurrying over to speak, with evident relief, in the more welcoming venue of a Democratic fundraiser three blocks away at the Capital Hilton. “We are now deeply concerned by military movements taken by the Russian Federation within Ukraine,” Obama said at the White House. “The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine.”

...

Here are some suggestions of what the United States can do.


(1) Announce it will not only not attend the G-8 (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/g8) conference scheduled for Sochi (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/sochi) but will move to expel Russia from the G-8. Russia doesn't belong in the G-8 anyway; the other members, the original G-7, have much larger economies with electoral democracies, free markets and the rule of law. Russia is deficient on each count.


(2) Move U.S. and other NATO military forces into Poland and other Eastern European NATO countries, particularly the Baltic republics. These nations have been extremely cooperative with the United States and have received the back of our hand in return.



(3) Move to set up the anti-ballistic missile facilities in Poland and the Czech Republic (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/czech-republic) which Obama scuttled in 2009--on the anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Poland, when it was an ally of Nazi Germany (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/nazis), in 1939.


(4) Cut off Russian banks' access to U.S., European Union and Japanese (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/japan) banking facilities. Such moves squeezed Iran (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/iran)">Iran hard enough to get it to the bargaining table.


(5) Extend the list of Russians barred from the United States under the Magnitsky Act.


(6) Improve relations with Kazakstan, which has plenty of oil and long boundaries with both Russia and China (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/china). Don't worry overmuch about losing transit rights in other Central Asia republics and Russia, which are currently the sites for removal of military equipment from Afghanistan (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/afghanistan) (because Pakistan (http://washingtonexaminer.com/section/pakistan) is not making itself available). We can just leave it there for the time being.


(7) Investigate possible environmental damage caused by the Russian port of Kaliningrad, in that geographically disconnected part of Russia that was once the northern part of East Prussia. This sounds like a good task for the European Union.

...

[jimnyc]

The below speaks volumes. It's not just a writer writing fantasy either, as anyone who has been paying attention knows this is true. This is what happens when someone goes from community level politics directly to the highest office in the land. He has zero experience on this level and it's showing, in embarrassing fashion.


President Obama’s foreign policy is based on fantasy

By Editorial Board (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-posts-view/2011/12/07/gIQAoEIscO_page.html), Published: March 2

FOR FIVE YEARS, President Obama has led a foreign policy based more on how he thinks the world should operate than on reality.

[CSM]

The below speaks volumes. It's not just a writer writing fantasy either, as anyone who has been paying attention knows this is true. This is what happens when someone goes from community level politics directly to the highest office in the land. He has zero experience on this level and it's showing, in embarrassing fashion.


President Obama’s foreign policy is based on fantasy

By Editorial Board (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-posts-view/2011/12/07/gIQAoEIscO_page.html), Published: March 2

FOR FIVE YEARS, President Obama has led a foreign policy based more on how he thinks the world should operate than on reality.

Well, at least Sarah Palin could "see Russia from her kitchen window" *sarcasm*

This administration has been sending so many mixed signals in our foreign policy it is no wonder that Putin estimates the reward far outweighs the risk. We have been spouting a shift of interests to the Pacific rim for several years now, widely announcing budget cuts and reduction of military capability, jilting our allies and placating enemies and generally displaying an aversion to confrontation (regardless of principle, treaties, etc.). This country has been at war for decades now as well and our military is getting worn out ... equipment, men and material. The Russian military, despite what the mainstream media wants us to believe, is still a formidable force with almost equitable technologies that match ours. All that being said, the REAL weakness within the US is not the military. It is the people of this nation that have neither the will nor the fortitude to carry out measures that will truly be effective in curbing the return of Russia to the Soviet Union heyday. Not one of the measures being propoposed (sanctions, freezing assets, etc) will have the effect the pundits would have us believe. All of those were in place during the Cold War and did not curtail the proxy wars or incursions into former Soviet block countries. Putin is not stupid; we have been measured and found wanting, at least in his estimation. He just may be right!

[Kathianne]

Nationalism is not a good thing, especially not in Europe:

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/03/putins-nationalist-strategy.html


March 2, 2014
Putin’s Nationalist Strategy
Posted by Masha Lipman

What is happening in the Crimean peninsula is not a war, exactly—or not if bloodshed is the standard for war. It is an ominous, creeping occupation (for now) of a region of sovereign Ukraine by the Russian armed forces at the order of the Kremlin. So far there have been no casualties, almost no shooting. In the predominantly pro-Russian Crimea, the Russian servicemen are generally welcomed by the local inhabitants. As Russian troops encircle and block Ukrainian military units in Crimea, the Ukrainian government in Kiev, the capital, is preparing for resistance. What will come next—full-blown war, negotiations, or a prolonged standoff—is anyone’s guess.

The one moment of promising news Sunday came when Russian President Vladimir Putin told German Chancellor Angela Merkel that he would accept her proposal to establish an international fact-finding “contact group” to discuss the crisis in Ukraine. Putin, in his conversation with Merkel, however, insisted that his actions were justified by an “unrelenting threat of violence” to Russian-speaking people in Ukraine. Merkel, for her part, called the invasion a contravention of international law.

And yet, an occupier, like Putin, who is utterly confident of his military superiority does not really need a cogent justification for his intervention. The decision to bring troops to Ukraine was not preceded by any formal government report. The unanimous vote Saturday in the Federation Council, the upper house of the Russian parliament, was based on a brief statement by the chamber’s speaker that there had been “casualties” in the Crimea during the night of March 1. The speaker cited no source for this information and did not mention the number of casualties. In fact, as it turned out, there had been no casualties at all. No matter. The Russian lawmakers did not ask a single question from the high-ranking defense and foreign-policy officials who were assembled in the chamber. They just proceeded to vote to satisfy Vladimir Putin’s request to invade.

There was no attempt to talk to the feuding forces or even to identify them in more than very general terms; there was no attempt to bring them to negotiations or mediate the conflict, such as it is. Nor was there even a hint of the role the United Nations should play, although in numerous earlier international crises it has been Putin who has insisted, in the name of peace and law, that the U.N. play the role of mediator.

Vladimir Putin is not interested in mustering a “coalition of the willing.” He relies utterly on his own understanding of the global order. He no longer deems it necessary to offer the West a cogent justification for his actions. The West is no longer seen as “partner,” the word Putin commonly used in the past. The West has become an unequivocal enemy.

...

The anti-Western nationalist trend has been on the rise in Russia for nearly a decade; it has become an engine of aggressive and expansionist action. This presages some powerful shifts at home, particularly a division of the Russian citizens into “friends” and “foes,” and a shift toward a more dictatorial, police-state mode of dealing with dissenting opinion. Today, over one thousand Muscovites dared to protest against the Russian military intervention in Ukraine, chanting, “No to war.” Police detained over three hundred people. The feelings among the liberal minority in Russia are of anguish, fear, anger, and shame. But they are powerless to stop the invasion taking shape in Crimea.

Boris Akunin, a famous novelist and member of the liberal community in Moscow, warned today that the conflict with Ukraine may lead to be a pretext for a wider crackdown. Writing on his Facebook page, Akunin counselled against public demonstrations “until hundreds of thousands are ready to take to the streets.”

“And now for the main rule,” Akunin wrote. “Let’s be brave. Hard times are coming and we must not lose ourselves.”

Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/03/putins-nationalist-strategy.html?printable=true&currentPage=all#ixzz2uuVbFpEW

[Kathianne]

and the sides line up:

http://news.sky.com/story/1219922/russia-and-china-in-agreement-over-ukraine


Russia has said China is largely "in agreement" over Ukraine, after other world powers condemned Moscow for sending troops into the country.


Hundreds of Russian soldiers have surrounded a military base in Crimea, preventing Ukrainian soldiers from going in or out.


The convoy blockading the site, near the Crimean capital Simferopol, includes at least 17 military vehicles.

...


The crisis has had a huge knock-on effect on global stock markets, with Moscow's stock exchange plunging as much as 10% on Monday morning (http://news.sky.com/story/1220031/markets-tumble-as-ukraine-tensions-escalate).


Russia's central bank raised its rate to 7% from 5.5% as the ruble hit an historic low against the dollar and the euro.


Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov discussed Ukraine by telephone with his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, on Monday, and claimed they had "broadly coinciding points of view" on the situation there, according to a ministry statement.


Speaking at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva later, Mr Lavrov said Russian troops were necessary in Ukraine "until the normalisation of the political situation" and dismissed threats of sanctions and boycotts.



...

"We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the United States and the President of the European Council and President of the European Commission, join together today to condemn the Russian Federation's clear violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine," they said in a statement.


"We have decided for the time being to suspend our participation in activities associated with the preparation of the scheduled G8 Summit in Sochi in June."
British Foreign Secretary William Hague, who is in Kiev for talks on the crisis (http://news.sky.com/story/1220131/hague-says-no-military-action-over-ukraine), said Russia has taken operational control of Crimea.


He described Russia's intervention in Ukraine as the biggest crisis in Europe in the 21st century.
At a news conference with Mr Yatseniuk, Mr Hague said: "If this situation cannot resolve itself, if Russia cannot be persuaded to respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine, there will have to be other consequences and other costs."

...

[CSM]

and the sides line up:

http://news.sky.com/story/1219922/russia-and-china-in-agreement-over-ukraine

Pretty smart move on Putin's part especially since China holds many countries (including the US) by the cajones. Clearly, other than strongly worded letters of reprimand, the UN will do nothing. The EU will do nothing without the US providing the bulk of blood and treasure nor will our allies. So, unless France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United Kingdom grow a pair in the next week or so, the Ukraine is pretty much going to be a satellite of Russia .... again.

[Kathianne]

Pretty smart move on Putin's part especially since China holds many countries (including the US) by the cajones. Clearly, other than strongly worded letters of reprimand, the UN will do nothing. The EU will do nothing without the US providing the bulk of blood and treasure nor will our allies. So, unless France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United Kingdom grow a pair in the next week or so, the Ukraine is pretty much going to be a satellite of Russia .... again.

Japan has enough problems in the Pacific, which is why the Chinese pro-Russian stance makes sense. Sort of an inversion of pre-WWII.

There is no way that military action is going to come into play between the West and Russia, the question is how and whether serious diplomatic consequences will take hold.

Russia is not much stronger than Germany was when Hitler began his 'legal machinations,' the issue is will the Bear get swatted now or when it's much stronger?

[CSM]

Japan has enough problems in the Pacific, which is why the Chinese pro-Russian stance makes sense. Sort of an inversion of pre-WWII.

There is no way that military action is going to come into play between the West and Russia, the question is how and whether serious diplomatic consequences will take hold.

Russia is not much stronger than Germany was when Hitler began his 'legal machinations,' the issue is will the Bear get swatted now or when it's much stronger?

I believe you are correct. I would be very surprised if there were any military action between the West and Russia. I am not sure what diplomatic consequences would be severe enough to deter Putin. If Putin wins this, the US credibility goes even further down the tube and you can bet that Iran, Syria and a host of other Middle Eastern countries are watching quite intently. We (the US) seems to have forgotten that the coallition that was formed by the Soviet Union was at least a match for the US superpower and in some cases even overmatched the US and its allies. IMO, the "evil empire" was not defeated, it just went underground, regrouped and is now beginning to emerge.

[Kathianne]

I believe you are correct. I would be very surprised if there were any military action between the West and Russia. I am not sure what diplomatic consequences would be severe enough to deter Putin. If Putin wins this, the US credibility goes even further down the tube and you can bet that Iran, Syria and a host of other Middle Eastern countries are watching quite intently. We (the US) seems to have forgotten that the coallition that was formed by the Soviet Union was at least a match for the US superpower and in some cases even overmatched the US and its allies. IMO, the "evil empire" was not defeated, it just went underground, regrouped and is now beginning to emerge.

We disagree somewhat on the bolded, Putin would agree with you, but I think he was originally in the minority over in former USSR. Problem was how economically devastated Russia and most of the satellites were. How third world most people were living. They thought throwing off the yoke of communism would lead to wealth, the truth was that only the wealthy there would become wealthier in the short term.

For reasons going back before WWI, US and European companies and governments did not want to invest in those countries, (short answer, they'd lost fortunes, twice doing the same). Without capital, there was little rebuilding, little economic growth, no money to buy the goods and a huge pent up demand.

It was the lack of success that brought upon this surge of support for nationalism, much like the punitive Versailles Treaty led to Hitler's short term success.

[CSM]

We disagree somewhat on the bolded, Putin would agree with you, but I think he was originally in the minority over in former USSR. Problem was how economically devastated Russia and most of the satellites were. How third world most people were living. They thought throwing off the yoke of communism would lead to wealth, the truth was that only the wealthy there would become wealthier in the short term.

For reasons going back before WWI, US and European companies and governments did not want to invest in those countries, (short answer, they'd lost fortunes, twice doing the same). Without capital, there was little rebuilding, little economic growth, no money to buy the goods and a huge pent up demand.

It was the lack of success that brought upon this surge of support for nationalism, much like the punitive Versailles Treaty led to Hitler's short term success.

I very much agree with your analysis! The statement you bolded was a feeble attempt on my part to point out that there will ALWAYs be an "evil empire" of some sort despite what the idealists think. "the evil empire has been defeated" is right on par with "if you like your health plan, you can keep it"

[Kathianne]

I very much agree with your analysis! The statement you bolded was a feeble attempt on my part to point out that there will ALWAYs be an "evil empire" of some sort despite what the idealists think. "the evil empire has been defeated" is right on par with "if you like your health plan, you can keep it"

Good discussion, as always CSM. I've got to run and study some stuff, will be back later. ;)

[Abbey Marie]

No one believes Obama when he says this. He's shown that he isn't going to back anything up.

We are seeing almost the exact same events that started world war 2. I think if the world wants to go to war, we may need to step back and sit this one out. Because they will be gunning for us. We need to be rebuilding our nation which is seriously lacking in character and leadership.

Funny you mentioned WWII. I was just thinking, if Obama was President back then, we'd all be eating German food now.

[Kathianne]

No hand wringing in Russia about whom will do what in UN, they aren't asking. However, they are setting deadlines for Ukraine all over the place:


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-latest-g7-condemns-russias-movement-into-the-crimea-9164961.html

Ukraine crisis: Russia gives Ukraine 3am deadline to get out of Crimea or ‘face storm’Russia has told Ukrainian forces to surrender its control of the strategic Crimean region by 3am on Tuesday or face military assault, amid the worst diplomatic crisis since the Cold War.

The forces in the region are also demanding that the crew of two Ukrainian warships in Sevastopol harbour surrender within the hour, or face being stormed and seized by Russian forces.
Relations between East and West continued to plummet as the Russian Government continued to ignore calls from Western leaders to leave the Ukrainian area.


This morning, the Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, justified the military incursion claiming it was necessary in order to protect his country's citizens living there. "This is a question of defending our citizens and compatriots, ensuring human rights, especially the right to life," he said.


It followed claims from the Ukrainian Defence Ministry that Russian fighter jets had "violated" the country's airspace over the Black Sea overnight and that Russian forces were now in control of the port city of Sevastopol, where the Black Sea fleet is based.


The takeover of the ferry terminal on the eastern tip of Crimea by Russian troops has exacerbated fears that Moscow is planning to bring even more troops into the strategic Black Sea region. There was no immediate comment from the Russian Defence Ministry.


In a series of interviews last night the US Secretary of State, John Kerry, said the Obama administration was looking at what sanctions to impose if Russia didn’t “step back” from its military incursion. “There could even be, ultimately, asset freezes, visa bans” and disruption of trade, Kerry said on NBC’s Meet the Press programme.


During a visit to Kiev today, the Foreign Secretary William Hague described the situation as "certainly the biggest crisis in Europe in the 21st century”, adding that there was "no justification" for the actions in Crimea, where Russia had "in effect taken control".

...

[Kathianne]

Gotta find more out about this:

http://www.nationalreview.com/node/372353/print


March 3, 2014 4:00 AM
The Eurasianist Threat

Putin’s ambitions extend far beyond Ukraine. By Robert Zubrin

<!--smart_paging_filter-->As the Putin regime invades Ukraine, it has become apparent that a new force for evil has emerged in Moscow. It is essential that Americans become aware of the nature of the threat.



Putin is sometimes described as a revanchist, seeking to recreate the Soviet Union. That is a useful shorthand, but it is not really accurate. Putin and many of his gang may have once been Communists, but they are not that today. Rather, they have embraced a new totalitarian political ideology known as “Eurasianism.”


The roots of Eurasianism go back to czarist émigrés interacting with fascist thinkers in between-the-wars France and Germany. But in recent years, its primary exponent has been the very prominent and prolific political theorist Aleksandr Dugin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin).


Born in 1962, Dugin was admitted to the Moscow Aviation Institute in 1979, but then was expelled because of his involvement with mystic neo-Nazi groups. He then spent the Eighties hanging around monarchist and ultra-right-wing circles, before joining for a while​ Gennady Ziuganov’s Communist Party of the Russian Federation (CPRF, a neo-Stalinist group partially descended from, but not to be confused with, the previously ruling Communist Party of the Soviet Union, CPSU), after which he became a founder and chief ideologue of the Eurasianist National Bolshevik Party (NBP) in 1994.


Nazism, it will be recalled, was an abbreviation for National Socialism. National Bolshevism, therefore, put itself forth as an ideology that relates to National Socialism in much the same way as Bolshevism relates to Socialism. This open self-identification with Nazism is also shown clearly in the NBP flag, which looks exactly like a Nazi flag, with a red background surrounding a white circle, except that the black swastika at the center is replaced by a black hammer and sickle.


Dugin ran for the Duma on the NBP ticket in 1995, but got only 1 percent of the vote. So, switching tactics, he abandoned the effort to build his own splinter party and instead adopted the more productive strategy of becoming the idea man for all the bigger parties, including Putin’s United Russia, Ziuganov’s CPRF, and Vladimir Zhirinovsky’s ultranationalist Liberal Democratic Party of Russia. In this role he has succeeded brilliantly.


The core idea of Dugin’s Eurasianism is that “liberalism” (by which is meant the entire Western consensus) represents an assault on the traditional hierarchical organization of the world. Repeating the ideas of Nazi theorists Karl Haushofer, Rudolf Hess, Carl Schmitt, and Arthur Moeller van der Bruck, Dugin says that this liberal threat is not new, but is the ideology of the maritime cosmopolitan power “Atlantis,” which has conspired to subvert more conservative land-based societies since ancient times. Accordingly, he has written books in which he has reconstructed the entire history of the world as a continuous battle (http://openrevolt.info/2013/02/03/alexander-dugin-the-great-war-of-continents/) between these two factions, from Rome v. Carthage to Russia v. the Anglo Saxon “Atlantic Order,” today. If Russia is to win this fight against the subversive oceanic bearers of such “racist” (because foreign-imposed) ideas as human rights, however, it must unite around itself all the continental powers, including Germany, Central and Eastern Europe, the former Soviet republics, Turkey, Iran, and Korea, into a grand Eurasian Union strong enough to defeat the West.


In order to be so united, this Eurasian Union will need a defining ideology, and for this purpose Dugin has developed a new “Fourth Political Theory (http://www.nationalreview.com/redirect/amazon.p?j=1907166653)” combining all the strongest points of Communism, Nazism, Ecologism, and Traditionalism, thereby allowing it to appeal to the adherents of all of these diverse anti-liberal creeds. He would adopt Communism’s opposition to free enterprise. However, he would drop the Marxist commitment to technological progress, a liberal-derived ideal, in favor of Ecologism’s demagogic appeal to stop the advance of industry and modernity. From Traditionalism, he derives a justification for stopping free thought. All the rest is straight out of Nazism, ranging from legal theories justifying unlimited state power and the elimination of individual rights, to the need for populations “rooted” in the soil, to weird gnostic ideas about the secret origin of the Aryan race in the North Pole.


The open devotion to Nazism is Dugin’s thought is remarkable. In his writings he celebrates the Waffen SS, murderers of millions of Russians during the war, as an ideal organization. He also approves of the most extreme crimes of Communism, going so far as to endorse the horrific 1937 purges that killed, among numerous other talented and loyal Soviet citizens, nearly the entire leadership of the Red Army — something that Stalin himself later had second thoughts about.


What Russia needs, says Dugin, is a “genuine, true, radically revolutionary and consistent, fascist fascism.” On the other hand, “Liberalism, is an absolute evil. . . .Only a global crusade against the U.S., the West, globalization, and their political-ideological expression, liberalism, is capable of becoming an adequate response. . . . The American empire should be destroyed.”

...

[CSM]

Well, I totally underestimated Obama! It seems he has finally brought out the "big guns" that will stop Putin in his tracks and demonstrate to every other nation that is even thinking about military intervention/invasion that such actions will result in in repurcussions beyond even nuclear war:


WASHINGTON, March 3 (Reuters) - Vice President Joe Biden urged Russia to pull its forces back from Ukraine in a phone call on Monday with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, the White House said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/joe-biden-russia-ukraine_n_4890600.html

Seriously??? Can anyone ....ANYONE ... tell me how in the heck this does ANYTHING (even by the most extreme stretch of imagination and fantasy) to mitigate/alleviate/resolve the situation???

If they thought Obama was weak before this, they now know that not only is Obama weak on foreign policy but has a court jester for a vice president!

[aboutime]

Well, I totally underestimated Obama! It seems he has finally brought out the "big guns" that will stop Putin in his tracks and demonstrate to every other nation that is even thinking about military intervention/invasion that such actions will result in in repurcussions beyond even nuclear war:


WASHINGTON, March 3 (Reuters) - Vice President Joe Biden urged Russia to pull its forces back from Ukraine in a phone call on Monday with Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, the White House said.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/joe-biden-russia-ukraine_n_4890600.html

Seriously??? Can anyone ....ANYONE ... tell me how in the heck this does ANYTHING (even by the most extreme stretch of imagination and fantasy) to mitigate/alleviate/resolve the situation???

If they thought Obama was weak before this, they now know that not only is Obama weak on foreign policy but has a court jester for a vice president!


CSM. Guess all of us should now be aware of the dangerous Obama...issuing TOY WEAPONS to our GELDING MILITARY, and enjoy the relocation of the PENTAGON to THAN FRAN THISCO???

If Obama honestly believes anyone in the world...other than NANCY PELOSI...fears him.

They should apply for Jack Nicholson's position...."In One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest-DNC Style".

[logroller]

So should we go to war with Russia-- who's in favor?

[aboutime]

So should we go to war with Russia-- who's in favor?


log. No fears of that in our future. Not since our pretend president is downsizing, and destroying our military.

You should probably be :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:like the appeaser-supporter you are.

[fj1200]

So should we go to war with Russia-- who's in favor?

Of course not. A feckless foreign policy doesn't equate to a credible military campaign.

[Nukeman]

Funny you mentioned WWII. I was just thinking, if Obama was President back then, we'd all be eating German food now.
Umm I like German food!! Just so ya know!!:beer:

[Nukeman]

So should we go to war with Russia-- who's in favor?

Here is what the Obama administration said 4 years ago..

http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/rm/2010/140325.htm


U.S. Policy Priorities

In the spirit of our strategic partnership with Ukraine, I would like to suggest five policy priorities, beyond traditional foreign policy cooperation, that should be high on our shared agenda with the Yanukovych Presidency:


First, the United States is committed to policies that contribute to a democratic and prosperous Ukraine and stands ready to help Ukraine reach agreement with the International Monetary Fund as soon as possible. The path to recovery and renewed prosperity runs through the IMF, which can help offer Ukraine a way out of the current crisis and open the door to lending from other international financial institutions and the European Union. That will require resolute leadership and hard decisions to undertake the critical reforms needed to cut the budget deficit, revive the banking system and phase out energy subsidies.


A second equally important policy area for Ukraine’s long-term prosperity and economic freedom is energy sector reform. A gas sector based on transparency, competition, realistic pricing, and more energy-efficient gas distribution and consumption will be key, and the United States is coordinating closely with the European Union on this issue. Ukraine uses energy three times less efficiently than the EU average; the country consumes 50-60% more gas than it should. The United States is helping with a three-year pilot program designed to increase energy conservation and efficiency at the municipal level.


Third, the United States is ready to work to strengthen the business side of U.S.-Ukraine relations, which is weaker than we would like it to be. The United States remains Ukraine’s 8th largest foreign investor, with $1.4 billion in foreign direct investment. We welcome President Yanukovych’s remarks in favor of creating incentives for investors, such as lowering taxes and reducing red tape. Our business community tells us that much remains to be done to make Ukraine more attractive to investors, from tax code reform to increased transparency, from greater rule of law protection to serious action against corruption. The payment of VAT refunds would be a big step forward. One area where the U.S. private sector could do more is in Ukraine’s nuclear power industry.


A fourth area of cooperation lies in nuclear security. The United States and Ukraine must continue to work together to reduce the threat of the spread of nuclear materials and technology to dangerous regimes or terrorist groups, while safeguarding the peaceful uses of nuclear energy. We look forward to building on our successful record on non-proliferation at the upcoming Nuclear Security Summit. Thanks to the leadership of Senator Lugar and former Senator Nunn, we can point to vital cooperation between Ukraine and the United States that has made the world safer. We recognize Ukraine’s importance as a partner in the Global Initiative to Combat Nuclear Terrorism, which brings our experience and expertise together with those of over 70 other countries to fight nuclear terrorism.

Finally, the United States wishes to strengthen bilateral security and defense cooperation, which is an essential component of our strategic partnership. We are grateful to Ukraine for its contributions to international security. As part of this effort, we hope that Ukrainian parliament will pass legislation to allow joint military exercises on its territory this year in order to facilitate mutually beneficial military training activities. With regard to NATO, we look forward to cooperating with Ukraine to meet its objectives in the NATO-Ukraine Commission and in its Annual National Program, regardless of Ukraine’s intentions regarding membership.


How quickly Obama forgets he has offered help to these folks. He is and always will be a poster child for "NOTHING"

[Kathianne]

So should we go to war with Russia-- who's in favor?

Where did you see anyone call for war/military response with Russia? Why bring that up, other than to derail the discussion?

Do you think that Russia should be allowed to take over the Crimea, due to so many there being in favor of Russian influence, though against treaties signed by Russia? Do you agree with Russia not going to the UN or any discussions anywhere? Do you agree with their deadlines on a militarily weak Ukraine, again in spite of treaties?

[Kathianne]

Of course not. A feckless foreign policy doesn't equate to a credible military campaign.

Truth of the matter is that feckless foreign policies make military responses much more likely in the future.

[Abbey Marie]

Umm I like German food!! Just so ya know!!:beer:

I think your choice of icon indicates what type of German "food" you like. ;)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Pretty smart move on Putin's part especially since China holds many countries (including the US) by the cajones. Clearly, other than strongly worded letters of reprimand, the UN will do nothing. The EU will do nothing without the US providing the bulk of blood and treasure nor will our allies. So, unless France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United Kingdom grow a pair in the next week or so, the Ukraine is pretty much going to be a satellite of Russia .... again. Obama's weakness and dedication to the left's social policies insured both Russia and China would start making moves. I believe I mentioned this here a couple years ago. I know I did at my old forum as soon as Obama took office. When one has to deal with bullies showing weakness invites attacks. Create a vacuum and it will be filled!!! Russia always laughed at the EU but did not use to laugh at the USA. Now it does and the reason is Obama and his deliberate nation weakening policies. His U.S. military weakening actions. His pledge to never use our nukes which was an invitation for both China and Russia to act against other parties. One must remember his hero was Stalin. --Tyr

[CSM]

So should we go to war with Russia-- who's in favor?

Pretty big leap there, Logroller.

I do believe neither the US nor the EU is in a position to intervene with military action. The Ukraine is (IMO) just the beginning ... and actually not even the beginning ... it is an extension of Chechnya and Georgia. The alliances that Russia has formed with China (and North Korea by proxy) and Iran are more than just worrisome. That alliance will have significant impact on world affairs in the very near future. Some of that impact will be through military incursion and some will be through economic manipulation. The fact is that the US has neutralized or otherwise diminished its own alliances either through apathy or even (in some cases) through intentional policy. Without a solid front to present in opposition to the Bear and Dragon coalition, the US and its remaining allies truly are the "paper tiger".

[Kathianne]

Pretty big leap there, Logroller.

I do believe neither the US nor the EU is in a position to intervene with military action. The Ukraine is (IMO) just the beginning ... and actually not even the beginning ... it is an extension of Chechnya and Georgia. The alliances that Russia has formed with China (and North Korea by proxy) and Iran are more than just worrisome. That alliance will have significant impact on world affairs in the very near future. Some of that impact will be through military incursion and some will be through economic manipulation. The fact is that the US has neutralized or otherwise diminished its own alliances either through apathy or even (in some cases) through intentional policy. Without a solid front to present in opposition to the Bear and Dragon coalition, the US and its remaining allies truly are the "paper tiger".

I don't think the US is a paper tiger, anymore than one could seriously argue that the former USSR was no longer a major player on world stage, it would only take one bad leader with all those weapons...

The US is in a similar position today. Through all the terrible foreign policies and domestic waste of the past 8 years-not all Obama, the US finds itself TODAY appearing to be a paper tiger. Under the current regime it is in fact acting as one. In real politik though, what is seen today is not necessarily what will be seen down the road.

What is of real concern is that we are further into appearances that project a dangerous false picture, one that may require more of a response than is needed or wanted to stop other bad behaviors.

[CSM]

Obama's weakness and dedication to the left's social policies insured both Russia and China would start making moves. I believe I mentioned this here a couple years ago. I know I did at my old forum as soon as Obama took office. When one has to deal with bullies showing weakness invites attacks. Create a vacuum and it will be filled!!! Russia always laughed at the EU but did not use to laugh at the USA. Now it does and the reason is Obama and his deliberate nation weakening policies. His U.S. military weakening actions. His pledge to never use our nukes which was an invitation for both China and Russia to act against other parties. One must remember his hero was Stalin. --Tyr

An Obama pledge is about as worthless as a air brakes on a turtle. That should worry some folks as well!

China is in the midst of one of the biggest military build ups in modern history; Russia has been flexing it's military and diplomatic muscle more and more since before Obama took office. North Korea is just plain crazy (talk about a wild card!) and Iran has been subtley fostering chaos and discontent for some time now. The rest of the world can shake its collective head and wax eloquent about how nations should act in a civilized global society but I doubt the barbarians are listening or even care about the idealistic views of their victims.

So, just what is the counter to the rising military, political and economic expansion of the Dragon and Bear alliance? Logroller was being flip in his comment about going to war with russia but it does raise the question of just what should the US and its remaining allies do? Certainly, capitulation and appeasement is one course of action and another is a suicidal military confrontation. One thing for sure is that ignoring the problem will only make it worse.

[CSM]

I don't think the US is a paper tiger, anymore than one could seriously argue that the former USSR was no longer a major player on world stage, it would only take one bad leader with all those weapons...

The US is in a similar position today. Through all the terrible foreign policies and domestic waste of the past 8 years-not all Obama, the US finds itself TODAY appearing to be a paper tiger. Under the current regime it is in fact acting as one. In real politik though, what is seen today is not necessarily what will be seen down the road.

What is of real concern is that we are further into appearances that project a dangerous false picture, one that may require more of a response than is needed or wanted to stop other bad behaviors.

I agree with you Kathy. The US is not a paper tiger just yet (despite the appearance of one). As you state in your last sentence, the actions required to alter the paper tiger facade just might be more than we are willing to take or worse (IMO) be far in excess of what is needed. My frustration is that I don't trust the current administration to find an effective solution and fully expect their reaction to be extreme (one way or the other).

[Nukeman]

I think your choice of icon indicates what type of German "food" you like. ;)
Ein Bier, bitte:beer:

[Kathianne]

I agree with you Kathy. The US is not a paper tiger just yet (despite the appearance of one). As you state in your last sentence, the actions required to alter the paper tiger facade just might be more than we are willing to take or worse (IMO) be far in excess of what is needed. My frustration is that I don't trust the current administration to find an effective solution and fully expect their reaction to be extreme (one way or the other).

What scares me now and has for years are truly ignorant, (by choice) folks that say, 'No war! No matter what!' and those that say, "Now we can get those bastards..." surrounded by fools that encourage and vote for bad politicians.

It would be one thing if these folks were slaves, forbidden from literacy; they are not. No, they are willfully ignorant, grabbing for what they agree with and growing it into a belief system. Actually taking the time to read and analyze something beyond those sources they agree with is 'too time consuming.' They don't know what is worth living or possibly dying for, yet they have no trouble tritely saying that they know what should be done in 'our name.'

[CSM]

What scares me now and has for years are truly ignorant, (by choice) folks that say, 'No war! No matter what!' and those that say, "Now we can get those bastards..." surrounded by fools that encourage and vote for bad politicians.

It would be one thing if these folks were slaves, forbidden from literacy; they are not. No, they are willfully ignorant, grabbing for what they agree with and growing it into a belief system. Actually taking the time to read and analyze something beyond those sources they agree with is 'too time consuming.' They don't know what is worth living or possibly dying for, yet they have no trouble tritely saying that they know what should be done in 'our name.'

Totally agree!

[fj1200]

One must remember his hero was Stalin. --Tyr

Link?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

An Obama pledge is about as worthless as a air brakes on a turtle. That should worry some folks as well!

China is in the midst of one of the biggest military build ups in modern history; Russia has been flexing it's military and diplomatic muscle more and more since before Obama took office. North Korea is just plain crazy (talk about a wild card!) and Iran has been subtley fostering chaos and discontent for some time now. The rest of the world can shake its collective head and wax eloquent about how nations should act in a civilized global society but I doubt the barbarians are listening or even care about the idealistic views of their victims.

So, just what is the counter to the rising military, political and economic expansion of the Dragon and Bear alliance? Logroller was being flip in his comment about going to war with russia but it does raise the question of just what should the US and its remaining allies do? Certainly, capitulation and appeasement is one course of action and another is a suicidal military confrontation. One thing for sure is that ignoring the problem will only make it worse. One thing is for sure countering the three great threats presented by Russia, China and Iran is not accomplished by alienating our allies and the deliberate weakening of our military by the agenda Obama promotes. Logroller merely pointed to the worst case to point out IMHO that Obama now faces a very dangerous adversary that sees him for what he truly is. I'll not list his weaknesses yet again but say once powerful nation's leaders see weakness and political folly they tend to capitalize on both. Obama may be doing his best in his last term in office to succeed in his goals but those seeking to profit from his follies are just as hell bent on making hay while the dark sun still shines it's ever so weak light. One part of an answer is to cut social programs down to the bare bones, beef up the military and make stronger ties with Asia , Japan, India and this most important one== Seal the Southern border and stop flow of the immigrants that help the Dem party carryout its destructive policies. All of which the current Republican leadership haven't a damn clue about and instead aid the left and Obama in accomplishing! No true return to Constitutionalism means we will fall as a sovereign nation. All Americans should notice how faithfully Obama attacks the Constitution. Only a sworn enemy of this nation would do that!-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Link?


http://www.americanthinker.com/2014/01/in_their_own_words_lenin_stalin_obama_and_hillary. html
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2013/01/17/drudge-links-obama-to-tyrants-who-have-used-chi/192297
http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/obama-and-stalin-how-theyre-alike/
http://ricochet.com/main-feed/FDR-Stalin-and-Obama I could give more but why bother as you will reject these even before you look at any of them IMHO.-TYR

[CSM]

One thing is for sure countering the three great threats presented by Russia, China and Iran is not accomplished by alienating our allies and the deliberate weakening of our military by the agenda Obama promotes. Logroller merely pointed to the worst case to point out IMHO that Obama now faces a very dangerous adversary that sees him for what he truly is. I'll not list his weaknesses yet again but say once powerful nation's leaders see weakness and political folly they tend to capitalize on both. Obama may be doing his best in his last term in office to succeed in his goals but those seeking to profit from his follies are just as hell bent on making hay while the dark sun still shines it's ever so weak light. One part of an answer is to cut social programs down to the bare bones, beef up the military and make stronger ties with Asia , Japan, India and this most important one== Seal the Southern border and stop flow of the immigrants that help the Dem party carryout its destructive policies. All of which the current Republican leadership haven't a damn clue about and instead aid the left and Obama in accomplishing! No true return to Constitutionalism means we will fall as a sovereign nation. All Americans should notice how faithfully Obama attacks the Constitution. Only a sworn enemy of this nation would do that!-Tyr

Obama, his minions (why do I think of little yellow cartoon characters giggling uncontrollably?), Democrats in general and most liberals had deluded themselves into thinking that all would be well with the world and would stay that way once they apologized for past US foreign policy. Having done exactly that, this administration then blithely proceeded to focus on internal affairs and ignore anything beyond US borders. The exception to that was insistence on withdrawing our military presence in foreign countries. IMO, Obama and most of our other elected and appointed officials surrounded themselves with advisors and experts with little to no experience or knowledge of foreign relations/policy.

In addition, in order to support the myriad of expensive social programs (where they believed they could grow their power and ensure the demise of any opposition) they proceeded to cut not only the military but also any research and development or effort (NASA, for example) not related to support of their socialist agenda. In essence, they convinced themselves and the American people that our nation's security was now guaranteed so military expenditures were not only too high but no longer necessary. They were also convinced that past alliances were either no longer necessary or, in some cases, a hinderance and thus ignored and even denigrated our allies.

Ironically, their actions are shown to be ineffective and erroneous when reality interferes in their utopian fantasy.

[fj1200]

I could give more but why bother as you will reject these even before you look at any of them IMHO.-TYR

I rejected them after I looked at each of them and none of them show that Stalin is BO's hero. Similarities? Sure, hero? No. Of course it doesn't take much to make comparisons between any world leaders, former or current.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I rejected them after I looked at each of them and none of them show that Stalin is BO's hero. Similarities? Sure, hero? No. Of course it doesn't take much to make comparisons between any world leaders, former or current. If I were a politician and modeled my actions to try to as much as possible duplicate Reagan's actions I'd most likely be viewing him as my hero. Or else why choose to duplicate his actions ? Obama is a leftist pure and simple. He was an admitted Saul Alinsky devotee. So maybe Alinsky is his hero, point being made is that the guy is both a fraud and a damn traitor.. Of course you have every right to disagree and you'll not see me stating that you have no such right. I do however strongly disagree with your overall failure to admit just how truly bad the bamscum is! -Tyr

[fj1200]

If I were a politician and modeled my actions to try to as much as possible duplicate Reagan's actions I'd most likely be viewing him as my hero. Or else why choose to duplicate his actions ? Obama is a leftist pure and simple. He was an admitted Saul Alinsky devotee. So maybe Alinsky is his hero, point being made is that the guy is both a fraud and a damn traitor.. Of course you have every right to disagree and you'll not see me stating that you have no such right. I do however strongly disagree with your overall failure to admit just how truly bad the bamscum is! -Tyr

:laugh: I already know he's bad. Suggesting that his hero is a man who killed millions in furtherance of his own power doesn't help make your case.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

:laugh: I already know he's bad. Suggesting that his hero is a man who killed millions in furtherance of his own power doesn't help make your case. Doesn't hurt it either since Obama seems to want to be a version of Stalin. All just a matter of perspective amigo.;) --Tyr

[fj1200]

Doesn't hurt it either since Obama seems to want to be a version of Stalin. All just a matter of perspective amigo.;) --Tyr

Uh, yeah it does since you just intimated he wishes to murder millions of his countrymen. Not the way to win friends and influence people IMO.

[Abbey Marie]

Uh, yeah it does since you just intimated he wishes to murder millions of his countrymen. Not the way to win friends and influence people IMO.

Well, Obama's killing me. ;)

[fj1200]

Well, Obama's killing me. ;)

That's not Siberia out your window. :poke: Though it may feel like it. :brr:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Uh, yeah it does since you just intimated he wishes to murder millions of his countrymen. Not the way to win friends and influence people IMO. I am not trying to win him over or anybody stupid enough to support his sorry ass. I know that he would like nothing better than be able to murder every damn person opposed to him. And yes if truth be told he'd like nothing better than to murder every damn person opposed to him !! If you think not you are fooling yourself or else very, very uninformed about who the bastard truly is IMHO.

[fj1200]

Uh, yeah. :rolleyes: Silly me though, I like to win elections every once in awhile. :poke:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Uh, yeah. :rolleyes: Silly me though, I like to win elections every once in awhile. :poke: Why? If we win control of Congress our dictator will just Executive Order his way . Or have you not learned that yet?????? Seems far to many are blind to his being a dictator but I suspect soon he will feel his oats enough to go to far too fast and the slow learners will finally catch onto the fact that he is a damn traitor and a dictator... . Too damn late is no way to go thru life .... Tyr

[fj1200]

And in two more years he'll be gone.

[Jeff]

And in two more years he'll be gone.


We Hope

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

And in two more years he'll be gone. So you say. Ever heard, "Don't celebrate until after the crop is in and the money is in the bank." Or "Don't count your chickens before they hatch"?? Know this the damage he does will take decades to recover from and that includes the people he installed into those government agencies that he keeps giving more and more power to. Break enough windows letting in enough bad weather and you'll find a damn lot more that new window glass needs to be repaired! All the broken windows must be repaired or else more harmful elements keep coming in and doing damage. Look at the Muslim Brotherhood bastards he put in high positions on OUR GOVERNMENT! And that after he made damn sure they won in Egypt! Methinks you overlook too much amigo. I don't!! --Tyr

[Abbey Marie]

And in two more years he'll be gone.

And let's hope we're not wishing for the Devil we know...

[fj1200]

I merely point to a previously proffered anecdote from circa 2006.

[namvet]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2u5uy5y.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/ta63d2.jpg

Putin's showing Obozo up for the spineless, limp dick he really is. and our enemies are watching

[Drummond]

I'm not sure how much to the point of this thread the following story is. Even so, I enjoyed reading about it ...

http://news.sky.com/story/1221603/russia-tv-presenter-quits-on-air-in-protest


A presenter for a Russian government-funded TV channel has resigned live on air, after accusing the station of "whitewashing the actions" of Vladimir Putin.

Liz Wahl, a US anchor for Russia Today America, told viewers during the broadcast: "I'm proud to be an American and believe in disseminating the truth and that is why after this newscast, I'm resigning."

Her grandparents fled to the US as refugees during the 1956 Hungarian Revolution to escape the Soviet Union.

Moscow has been accused of invading Ukraine's Crimea region after months of pro-European protests there saw the nation's pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych, ousted.

Russia denies this, claiming the troops operating there are "self-defence" forces who do not answer to Moscow.

In a statement on Ms Wahl's actions, Russia Today said: "When a journalist disagrees with the editorial position of his or her organisation, the usual course of action is to address those grievances with the editor, and, if they cannot be resolved, to quit like a professional.

"But when someone makes a big public show of a personal decision, it is nothing more than a self-promotional stunt.

Ms Wahl later tweeted: "I am grateful and humbled by the outpouring of support I have received."

Another host from the channel criticised the actions of pro-Russian forces earlier this week.

Abby Martin labelled the intervention "wrong" and said she was "strongly against" military involvement.

The channel responded by saying Ms Martin "does not possess a deep knowledge of reality of the situation in Crimea" and that she would be sent there to "make up her own mind from the epicentre of the story".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnZt6QA3qBE