Gaza started shooting rockets on Israel cities again

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://news.yahoo.com/israel-shoots-down-gaza-rockets-responds-air-strikes-062528724.html Gaza started shooting rockets on Israel cities again
Israel shoots down Gaza rockets, responds with air strikes
Reuters

6 hours ago
Palestinians inspect their house yard, which they said was hit in an Israeli air strike, in Gaza City

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system intercepted five rockets fired at the city of Ashkelon from the Gaza Strip on Thursday, and the military responded with a series of air strikes on the Hamas-controlled territory.

No group has taken responsibility for firing the rockets, which were shot down by Iron Dome's small radar-guided missiles over Ashkelon, a coastal city of some 125,000 people about 12 km (seven miles) north of Gaza.

Israel says it holds the Islamist group Hamas, which has ruled the Palestinian enclave since 2007, responsible for all cross-border rocket fire.

Palestinian security officials said two Hamas camps were hit by Israel's air strikes and that five people were wounded.

(Reporting by Ari Rabinovitch and Saleh Jadallah, editing by Elizabeth Piper) Got to try to keep that public sympathy going for their "victimhood". And do so by trying to murder innocent Israelis. --Tyr

[jafar00]

Got to try to keep that public sympathy going for their "victimhood". And do so by trying to murder innocent Israelis. --Tyr

While innocent Gazans are being murdered and while their small patch of land is held under brutal siege and illegal collective punishment, they will continue to fight back as best they can. That is the reality of the situation.

[Voted4Reagan]

While innocent Gazans are being murdered and while their small patch of land is held under brutal siege and illegal collective punishment, they will continue to fight back as best they can. That is the reality of the situation.

What attack were they firing rockets in response to ?

Please Jafar... Tell us what specific attack by Israel was to blame for all of this.

ANSWER: THERE WAS NONE..

[aboutime]

This thread is nothing more than another great "BS" moment for jafar.

When he defends GAZANS?...We're all expected to forget, and ignore how much people like jafar really hate Israel, and Jews....but pretend to defend such people by bragging about how "They have friends who are Jews".

That kind of language is used by racists around the world, and our home grown racists here in the U.S. hide behind it by saying the very same thing...while asking for Democrat votes.

[logroller]

Got to try to keep that public sympathy going for their "victimhood". And do so by trying to murder innocent Israelis. --Tyr
Maybe they were trying to kill guilty Israelis.

[aboutime]

Maybe they were trying to kill guilty Israelis.


log. You sound like you could be related to jafar. And, thanks for announcing what kind of fool you are for the rest of us. ALLAH SNACKBAR to you too!

[Little-Acorn]

Gaza started shooting rockets on Israel cities again


You mean they had stopped for a while?
Now THAT would be news. :clap:

[logroller]

log. You sound like you could be related to jafar. And, thanks for announcing what kind of fool you are for the rest of us. ALLAH SNACKBAR to you too!
More like related to Drummond; its the justification he used for Dresden.

[jafar00]

What attack were they firing rockets in response to ?

Please Jafar... Tell us what specific attack by Israel was to blame for all of this.

ANSWER: THERE WAS NONE..

The one in 1948 started it I assume.

[aboutime]

The one in 1948 started it I assume.


And...sadly for you, jafar. We all know the meaning of the word "ASS U ME".

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

While innocent Gazans are being murdered and while their small patch of land is held under brutal siege and illegal collective punishment, they will continue to fight back as best they can. That is the reality of the situation. Those poor people need to use the money given them for good instead of war. Here is just one example of billions wasted.



http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/auditors-tell-europe-to-stop-paying-phantom-bureaucrats-in-gaza/

Auditors Tell Europe to Stop Paying Phantom Bureaucrats in Gaza

Dec. 19, 2013 9:00am
Paul Chambres


Paul Chambres


Paul Chambres is a European Union Affairs Advisor based principally out of Paris, France. For the past two decades, he has helped North American businesses develop and implement strategies for investing and expanding operations in Europe. After growing up in North Carolina, Paul completed his undergraduate and graduate degrees in the United Kingdom. As a consultant, he worked extensively in Eastern Europe as the region transitioned to free market economies, before shifting focus to Western European markets. Paul is also a husband, father and die-hard conservative. He enjoys writing and blogging and has contributed to major publications in the United Kingdom and United States.





..

A European Court of Auditors report made public last week implored the European Union, which provides $1.3 billion annually to the Palestinian Authority, to stop paying Palestinian civil servants that don’t show up to work. The report also underlined corruption concerns and warned that the aid could be illicitly supporting terrorists. Amid continued economic woes, Europeans are increasingly questioning the lavish aid.

The European Union is the world’s largest official donor to the Palestinians, with a large portion going to the internationally-recognized Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. The institution has provided assistance to Palestine since 1971 and, since 1994 alone, has provided more than $7.6 billion in aid.

EU aid to Palestine has long been the target of controversy, including accusations of large-scale waste, corruption and claims that the money has been used to fund terrorism. According to research conducted by Palestinian Media Watch, Palestinian terrorists who spend more than five years in Israeli prisons continue receiving money after their release, much of which comes from aid funds provided by the EU.

While saying that European aid does help to relieve suffering, the report criticizes Europe for not using its financial leverage over the Palestinian Authority to push for more economic and political reforms and failing to crack down on corruption and misuse of funds. In one instance, auditors say that it was unclear what had happened to $124 million earmarked to keep Gaza’s only power plant running, which shut down last month after running out of fuel. They use that money and billions more from other aid given by other nations/peoples/groups to make war. Who the hell are you kidding? Their war effort forces them to live in poverty conditions. --Tyr

[Gaffer]

The one in 1948 started it I assume.

You mean the one in 1948 where all the arab nations got together and rolled into Israel with tanks and infantry, and got there ass-u-me handed to them?

[Voted4Reagan]

More like related to Drummond; its the justification he used for Dresden.

Dresden was a Major Rail and Land Transportation hub. several Rail lines merged there andposed a threat to advancing Russian Troops under Field Marshall Koniev who was just 70miles west of Dresden when the Bombings commenced.

ZEIS had it's precision optics factory in Dresden. They mad High Quality Optical range Finders and Sighting systems.

there were over 110 Large Factories and hundred more smaller industries that fed the Larger ones.

Dresden was a Legitimate Target for Military purposes.

Sorry Logroller... with all due respect in this issue You cant compare the two.

[jimnyc]

If they did this in response to NOTHING (which we all know they did), then it's obvious that they have no care for peace at all, kind of like what Hamas charter states. No negotiating, no peace. All they want is what they stated - jew blood.

[Drummond]

Dresden was a Major Rail and Land Transportation hub. several Rail lines merged there andposed a threat to advancing Russian Troops under Field Marshall Koniev who was just 70miles west of Dresden when the Bombings commenced.

ZEIS had it's precision optics factory in Dresden. They mad High Quality Optical range Finders and Sighting systems.

there were over 110 Large Factories and hundred more smaller industries that fed the Larger ones.

Dresden was a Legitimate Target for Military purposes.

Sorry Logroller... with all due respect in this issue You cant compare the two.

EXACTLY. And I've already posted, elsewhere, that Dresden was bombed because of its military and strategic importance.

[Drummond]

Maybe they were trying to kill guilty Israelis.

But first, they'd have to find some. Or even convincingly quantify how it is that Israel's desire to live in peace and security, when they have a known terrorist group/'Government' ranged against them, rockets ditto, qualifies them for 'guilt'.

[Voted4Reagan]

EXACTLY. And I've already posted, elsewhere, that Dresden was bombed because of its military and strategic importance.

and in case anyone is not aware...

Dresden was a Night Target of the RAF. They caused the Firestorms.

USAAF Bombed during DAYLIGHT HOURS.

RAF/RCAAF units bombed at NIGHT.

Russians did not participate in Strategic bombing and needed USAAF/RAF Units to bomb for them where they attacked.

Soviet Air Forces were Ground Attack (IL-2 Sturmavick) and smaller Bombers like the
Petlyakov PE-2

IL-2 Sturmavick (TOP), Petlyakov PE-2 (Bottom)

http://www.worldwarbirdnews.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Il-2-Sturmovik.jpg


http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/522/6russian_bombers_1943_Orel.jpg

[aboutime]

If they did this in response to NOTHING (which we all know they did), then it's obvious that they have no care for peace at all, kind of like what Hamas charter states. No negotiating, no peace. All they want is what they stated - jew blood.


The so-called Palestinians, under the control of Hamas...have NO DESIRE for Peace...at any Cost.

Their combined, sole intention is to KILL Israel's Men, Women, and Children..and any visitors who help the Jewish nation survive.

Everyone around the world knows what the TRUTH is. But we will always have the DENIAL bunch like jafar...who most prolong, and proliferate their hatred AT ANY COST.

[Drummond]

Jafar needs to finally decide whether he is pro or anti terrorist, and stick to one position or the other, with total consistency.

Support for Hamas, and for the actions Hamas takes, IF this continues, is a position utterly incompatible with being 'anti' terrorist.

We surely all know that.

[logroller]

Dresden was a Major Rail and Land Transportation hub. several Rail lines merged there andposed a threat to advancing Russian Troops under Field Marshall Koniev who was just 70miles west of Dresden when the Bombings commenced.
Indeed it was, but the rail yard (nor the airstrip, itself a legit target) were initially targets. The war was all but over. the Dresden campaign was conspicuously just two days after the yalta conference where the allies met to discuss postwar occupation by constituent allies. The Russians were closing in rapidly, and tens of thousands of civilian refugees were fleeing the cruelties of the red army whose land frces greatly outnumbered the west. What the western allies did have was superior airpower and the Dresden campaign assuredly demonstrated this to Stalin and Dresden would fall under western control. A rather cruel way to stake a claim, but so is bulldozing a Palestine neighborhood (in occupied territory, against international law) because they don't have the requisite permits.
While the pretexts are different, Israel certainly possesses legitimate targets as well and the ethical implication of indiscriminant attacks against a foe is subject to the same scrutiny IMO. But more often is the case that those with the greater power decide not just the rules but who violated them. Naturally, the more powerful are almost always deemed justified--that's the reality, though hardly is this the truth.

[jafar00]

You mean the one in 1948 where all the arab nations got together and rolled into Israel with tanks and infantry, and got there ass-u-me handed to them?

No, I mean the Zionist invasion before that preceded by brutal jewish terrorism that resulted in hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being summarily ejected from their homes and their homeland at gunpoint.

[jimnyc]

No, I mean the Zionist invasion before that preceded by brutal jewish terrorism that resulted in hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being summarily ejected from their homes and their homeland at gunpoint.

Please forgive me once again, as I'm only quoting a fine chap here:


You would think the war was over. You guys lost. Get over it!

[Drummond]

No, I mean the Zionist invasion before that preceded by brutal jewish terrorism that resulted in hundreds of thousands of Palestinians being summarily ejected from their homes and their homeland at gunpoint.

The State of Palestine existed, then, Jafar ? Yes ?

What, precisely, did the 'Zionists' 'invade' ?

And back in 1948, did the UN sanction 'invasion' .. ?

[logroller]

But first, they'd have to find some. Or even convincingly quantify how it is that Israel's desire to live in peace and security, when they have a known terrorist group/'Government' ranged against them, rockets ditto, qualifies them for 'guilt'.
Those Israelites that bulldozed Palestinians' homes qualifies them as guilty.

[aboutime]

Those Israelites that bulldozed Palestinians' homes qualifies them as guilty.


log. Your hypocrisy is showing. Like jafar, when you use the word Israelites...how can that be? If you, jafar, and the slimy palestinians DENY Israel exists?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Indeed it was, but the rail yard (nor the airstrip, itself a legit target) were initially targets. The war was all but over. the Dresden campaign was conspicuously just two days after the yalta conference where the allies met to discuss postwar occupation by constituent allies. The Russians were closing in rapidly, and tens of thousands of civilian refugees were fleeing the cruelties of the red army whose land frces greatly outnumbered the west. What the western allies did have was superior airpower and the Dresden campaign assuredly demonstrated this to Stalin and Dresden would fall under western control. A rather cruel way to stake a claim, but so is bulldozing a Palestine neighborhood (in occupied territory, against international law) because they don't have the requisite permits.
While the pretexts are different, Israel certainly possesses legitimate targets as well and the ethical implication of indiscriminant attacks against a foe is subject to the same scrutiny IMO. But more often is the case that those with the greater power decide not just the rules but who violated them. Naturally, the more powerful are almost always deemed justified--that's the reality, though hardly is this the truth.

Indeed it was, but the rail yard (nor the airstrip, itself a legit target) were initially targets. The war was all but over. the Dresden campaign was conspicuously just two days after the yalta conference where the allies met to discuss postwar occupation by constituent allies. Are you advocating the factories , rail yards and military targets there were dormant or that Germany had surrendered ? Because if you are not advocating either of those two then you must be calling for a kinder gentler war while speculating that those bombings did not save American soldiers 's lives. Clarify if you please. -Tyr

[Drummond]

log. Your hypocrisy is showing. Like jafar, when you use the word Israelites...how can that be? If you, jafar, and the slimy palestinians DENY Israel exists?

Excellent point !

[logroller]

log. Your hypocrisy is showing. Like jafar, when you use the word Israelites...how can that be? If you, jafar, and the slimy palestinians DENY Israel exists?
Blame autocorrect 7.0. Substitute Israelis if you please. Ne'er denied Israel's existence or its right to.

[logroller]

Are you advocating the factories , rail yards and military targets there were dormant or that Germany had surrendered ? Because if you are not advocating either of those two then you must be calling for a kinder gentler war while speculating that those bombings did not save American soldiers 's lives. Clarify if you please. -Tyr

lol. Advocating? I'm talking about the facts--the German army, Luftwaffe and war machine was a skeleton and well on their heels. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for ruthless and devastating attacks against a sworn enemy to bring about their capitulation but I don't put on pretenses of it being any more righteous than when an enemy does.


Speculation? The estimates on the number of lives saved by those bombings is speculation; whereas the tens of thousands of civilians killed in the operation is FACT. At that point the majority of Germany's defenses were positioned to the northeast against Russia; indeed allied losses in the Dresden campaign were less than 1%, and only after complete success in their first run did they even target areas of military significance like railyards-- thus the scorched earth policy was the primary intent and, given the timing after Yalta, it was more a function of political rather than military necessity. Again though, I am not seeking to demonize these actions; its an act of war, and war is a terrible thing-- I just don't think it any more morally egregious when another does it either.

[jafar00]

The State of Palestine existed, then, Jafar ? Yes ?

What, precisely, did the 'Zionists' 'invade' ?

And back in 1948, did the UN sanction 'invasion' .. ?

Yes, Palestine did exist. Have a look at a few maps made a century ago or so and you will find it.


log. Your hypocrisy is showing. Like jafar, when you use the word Israelites...how can that be? If you, jafar, and the slimy palestinians DENY Israel exists?

Yet you deny the right of the Palestinians to exist and to live in their own homes. Don't call hypocrisy on me.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

lol. Advocating? I'm talking about the facts--the German army, Luftwaffe and war machine was a skeleton and well on their heels. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for ruthless and devastating attacks against a sworn enemy to bring about their capitulation but I don't put on pretenses of it being any more righteous than when an enemy does.


Speculation? The estimates on the number of lives saved by those bombings is speculation; whereas the tens of thousands of civilians killed in the operation is FACT. At that point the majority of Germany's defenses were positioned to the northeast against Russia; indeed allied losses in the Dresden campaign were less than 1%, and only after complete success in their first run did they even target areas of military significance like railyards-- thus the scorched earth policy was the primary intent and, given the timing after Yalta, it was more a function of political rather than military necessity. Again though, I am not seeking to demonize these actions; its an act of war, and war is a terrible thing-- I just don't think it any more morally egregious when another does it either. Log, with all due respect I say and most would agree with me on this, you do not stop hitting the enemy until after the last ounce of resistance has ceased. Firebombing cities started in 1942 and all Allied powers used it same as the Axis powers.

Firebombing

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
U.S forces drop Napalm on suspected Viet Cong positions in 1965.
A German World War II incendiary bomb remnant
Firebombing is a bombing technique designed to damage a target, generally an urban area, through the use of fire, caused by incendiary devices, rather than from the blast effect of large bombs.

Although simple incendiary bombs have been used to destroy buildings since the start of gunpowder warfare, World War II saw the first use of strategic bombing from the air to destroy the ability of the enemy to wage war. The Chinese wartime capital of Chongqing was firebombed by the Japanese starting in early 1939. London, Coventry, and many other British cities were firebombed during the Blitz. Most large German cities were extensively firebombed starting in 1942 and almost all large Japanese cities were firebombed during the last six months of World War II.

This technique makes use of small incendiary bombs (possibly delivered by a cluster bomb such as the Molotov bread basket[1]). If a fire catches, it could spread, taking in adjacent buildings that would have been largely unaffected by a high explosive bomb. This is a more effective use of the payload that a bomber could carry.

The use of incendiaries alone does not generally start uncontrollable fires where the targets are roofed with nonflammable materials such as tiles or slates. The use of a mixture of bombers carrying high explosive bombs, such as the British blockbuster bombs, which blew out windows and roofs and exposed the interior of buildings to the incendiary bombs, are much more effective. Alternatively, a preliminary bombing with conventional bombs can be followed by subsequent attacks by incendiary carrying bombers.

I see you are thinking it was the right thing to do at that point in the war to stop killing civilians with firebombs. That's all well and nice except firebombing did save American troop lives and here is the kicker on that-- it was our duty to save our own men's lives not those of the enemy. I do not fault your compassion but rather your logic on this. One does no stop until the enemy is defeated. We had far too many dead and wounded soldiers(over 1 million) to stop maximum effort until the enemy surrender. Here is a list of our losses.

http://www.nationalww2museum.org/learn/education/for-students/ww2-history/ww2-by-the-numbers/us-military.html dividing bar US Military Casualties in WWII
Killed


Wounded


Army and Air Force

318,274

565,861


Navy

62,614

37,778


Marines

24,511

68,207


Coast Guard

1,917

Unknown


TOTAL

407,316

671,278

dividing bar
Merchant Marines Casualties




Died as POWs

37


Dead

5,662


Missing/Presumed Dead

4,780


Killed at Sea

845

[fj1200]

I do not fault your compassion but rather your logic on this. One does no stop until the enemy is defeated.

His logic is spot on...


Again though, I am not seeking to demonize these actions; its an act of war, and war is a terrible thing-- I just don't think it any more morally egregious when another does it either.

... and is not determined by either who won or whose side he is on.


But first, they'd have to find some.

Logically, they're all guilty just as the Germans were.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

His logic is spot on...



... and is not determined by either who won or whose side he is on.



Logically, they're all guilty just as the Germans were. Actually he criticized American military without making a point to criticize the other major players in WW2. ALL OF WHICH DID FAR, FAR , FAR WORSE AND DID SO UNTIL THEY WERE DEFEATED AND FORCED TO STOP. Word spinning by you or him does not alter that fact. And if he did state the others were just as guilty then what the hell was his point? That war is hell and innocent people die? Damn , everybody knows that and what does it prove in relation to the subject being debated? Adding more icing on a bad cake doesn't really improve its taste amigo... I have tried that before and it really doesn't. -Tyr

[Drummond]

Yes, Palestine did exist. Have a look at a few maps made a century ago or so and you will find it.

My answer, Jafar:

http://www.targetofopportunity.com/palestinian_truth.htm


<big>There Was Never A Country Called Palestine</big>

If you consider Palestine to be a "Sovereign" and "Independent" country that goes back through most of recorded history as many would have you to believe, then a few questions need to be answered:



When was it founded and by whom?
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
Who was the President?
What was its form of government?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
Who was the Palestinian leader before Yasser Arafat?
Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
What was the language of the country of Palestine?
What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
What was the name of its currency and what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, or Japanese yen on any particular date?
And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?


If these so-called "Palestinians" are anything but a generic collection of Arabs from all over the rest of the Arab world and if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, then why did they never try to become an independent and sovereign nation until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War in 1967?


http://www.targetofopportunity.com/bar_gold.jpg
<big>
The Ten Commandments of Arab Lies</big>



The "Palestinian People" have an historic connection to the land.This is very interesting since there is no such thing as a "Palestinian People". When the Romans changed the name of Israel to Palestine, the people living there at the time were Jews, not Arabs. If there had been a "Palestinian People", which there never was, they would have been Jews.
The Palestinian People have been in the land from time immemorial.For centuries pre-Israel Palestine was a forgotten, desolate wasteland inhabited by a remnant of Jews, along with some Christians and wandering Bedouins who certainly had no thought of a national identity of any kind.
There were no Jews in Palestine until Israel became a state in 1948.The Romans officially banished the Jews from Israel (Palestine) in 135 CE. However, historical records show there was always a Jewish presence in the land. While many were scattered, other Jews simply moved out of harm's way until a less hostile power ruled the land. Jews were returning to what is now Israel well before 1948. Many left Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917.
Arabs and Jews lived in harmony before Israel became a state.Throughout the centuries, Jews as well as Christians, living under Islamic rule suffered persecution and humiliation, the intensity of which was determined by the character of a particular Moslem ruler. As second-class citizens, there was never a "good time" for non-Muslims living under Islamic rule. Because of the way that most Islamic countries look down on non-Muslims, they are always considered second-class citizens and less than equal. Arabs have rarely lived in harmony with anyone if they were the majority.
The returning Jews displaced the Palestinian ArabsThe ancestors of most of the present-day Arab population migrated to the land after Jewish pioneers began to reclaim the land. They came from many different countries and were not original inhabitants of the land.
The Jews stole Arab landJews returning to the land settled on unclaimed, unoccupied land or bought land from absentee Arab landowners at outrageously high prices. This is a matter of record.
The Jews forced Arabs to flee PalestineWhen Israel was declared a state in 1948, leaders from the surrounding Arab countries declared war on Israel and instructed the Arab civilians living in the land to flee until the Jews were annihilated. Israeli leaders, to no avail, urged the Arabs to stay. Property that they owned was abandoned.
The Jews caused the Arab refugee problemIf Arab countries would assimilate and care for the "Palestinian" refugees, as Israel did for their Jewish refugees, there would be no refugee problem. Instead they use the refugees as political pawns in their struggle against Israel. No Arab country that wants "Palestinian Arabs" in their country as they would rather use the "Palestinian Arabs" as pawns rather than assimilate them into their populations and bring peace to the Middle East.
Israel is the aggressor against defenseless PalestiniansIn its brief history, Israel has had one war after another and each time they are blamed as the aggressor. The Arabs do not recognize the right of Israel to exist and are in a constant state of hostility against Israel. Their aim is to destroy Israel.
Jerusalem is holy to MuslimsWhile Jerusalem is mentioned over eight hundred times in the Bible, it is not mentioned one time in the Koran. Muslims have had little or no interest in Jerusalem until the Jewish presence in modern times.

[aboutime]

Yes, Palestine did exist. Have a look at a few maps made a century ago or so and you will find it.



Yet you deny the right of the Palestinians to exist and to live in their own homes. Don't call hypocrisy on me.


jafar. I have NEVER denied ANYONE the right to exist. No matter what, or who they call themselves. Just as I cannot support, or defend those same people who use TERROR...like rocket attacks on men, women and children...while claiming they want Peace...which THEY DO NOT WANT.
I...as a citizen of the United States of America. Do not have the power, influence, or desire to deny ANYONE their right to exist.
My name is not OBAMA.

[Drummond]

Yet you deny the right of the Palestinians to exist

... Thought I'd comment on this as well.

As my other post shows, 'Palestine' has not - and despite your plea that I look at maps from a hundred years ago, Jafar - existed as a Nation State in its own right. Interest in promoting them as a distinct 'people' is relatively recent, and, Jafar, as we both know, has an opportunistic political intent specifically designed to act against Israel and her interests.

And Gaza .. this is ruled by terrorists, terrorists put into power by the people living in that location. This therefore makes Gaza, IN ESSENCE AT MINIMUM, a terrorist State.

To be clear .. I DO DENY THE RIGHT OF A TERRORIST STATE TO EXIST.

I find it thoroughly remarkable that Israel tolerates it. At all.

[aboutime]

... Thought I'd comment on this as well.

As my other post shows, 'Palestine' has not - and despite your plea that I look at maps from a hundred years ago, Jafar - existed as a Nation State in its own right. Interest in promoting them as a distinct 'people' is relatively recent, and, Jafar, as we both know, has an opportunistic political intent specifically designed to act against Israel and her interests.

And Gaza .. this is ruled by terrorists, terrorists put into power by the people living in that location. This therefore makes Gaza, IN ESSENCE AT MINIMUM, a terrorist State.

To be clear .. I DO DENY THE RIGHT OF A TERRORIST STATE TO EXIST.

I find it thoroughly remarkable that Israel tolerates it. At all.



Sir Drummond. Hate to sound like a broken record, but...jafar has proven, time, and time again. He's really not worth the effort to discuss, or even argue with about such things.
We all know by now. No matter how much we say. jafar will, and must, always disagree.
That's how people who believe in Lies operate.

[gabosaurus]

Oh wonderful, yet ANOTHER thread about the terrorist states blaming each other for the carnage. :rolleyes:

[Voted4Reagan]

The one in 1948 started it I assume.

Israel was the defender in 1948...

Try again...

[gabosaurus]

Neither side is the defender. They are both wrong.

[Voted4Reagan]

At no time in the last 4000 years have the Palestinians held any title to the land in question.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e470a9e1e3e04c7a9c5869302992dd1c.png

[jafar00]

At no time in the last 4000 years have the Palestinians held any title to the land in question.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/e470a9e1e3e04c7a9c5869302992dd1c.png

Philistine is Palestine in Arabic :p The area has always been known as that.

For a place that never existed, it seems to be on a lot of old maps.

This one from 1864 for example.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/antiquepalestine1864.jpg

[Drummond]

Oh wonderful, yet ANOTHER thread about the terrorist states blaming each other for the carnage. :rolleyes:

We aim to please, Gabby ! Though ... you say terrorist stateS ???

A typo, presumably ...

[Drummond]

Neither side is the defender. They are both wrong.

So, when Israel defends against attack, when it dares to not only want to exist, but to fight those who'd happily rob it of its existence, it's actually NOT defending ??

[Drummond]

Philistine is Palestine in Arabic :p The area has always been known as that.

For a place that never existed, it seems to be on a lot of old maps.

This one from 1864 for example.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/antiquepalestine1864.jpg

So ?

A bunch of gypsies could draw a map of a location they'd started squatting on, that map indicating that 'they' were the rightful dwellers there, more so than anyone else. Wouldn't make it true, though.

Anyway, let's be realistic. See ....

http://www.sadaka.ie/Files/synopsis_palestine.pdf


For centuries there was no such conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a multicultural population .. approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian, and 4 percent Jewish ... living in peace

See that, Jafar ? A MULTI-ETHNIC MIX. There was NO one, specific 'people' ... it was just a hotchpotch of diverse people believing different things, being tied, genetically, to diverse ethnicities !!!

A majority may have been Muslim. BUT NOT ALL WERE.

And compare that with Hamas, a self-proclaimed standard-bearer for Muslim values, intolerant of a People not conforming to its worldview !! Tell me, Jafar, are Hamas, your terrorist chums, not acting in total defiance of what is described for that 'Palestine' ??

Perhaps Hamas aren't pro-Palestine ?

Besides, Jafar, you're evading an earlier post of mine. I posted this questionnaire -


If you consider Palestine to be a "Sovereign" and "Independent" country that goes back through most of recorded history as many would have you to believe, then a few questions need to be answered:


When was it founded and by whom?
What were its borders?
What was its capital?
Who was the President?
What was its form of government?
What were its major cities?
What constituted the basis of its economy?
Who was the Palestinian leader before Yasser Arafat?
Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
What was the language of the country of Palestine?
What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine?
What was the name of its currency and what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, or Japanese yen on any particular date?
And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

[fj1200]

Actually he criticized American military without making a point to criticize the other major players in WW2.


Actually it was a simple exercise in logic. If the Germans were guilty, or at least a legitimate target, then the Israelis are as well.

[fj1200]

... Thought I'd comment on this as well.

As my other post shows, 'Palestine' has not - and despite your plea that I look at maps from a hundred years ago, Jafar - existed as a Nation State in its own right. Interest in promoting them as a distinct 'people' is relatively recent, and, Jafar, as we both know, has an opportunistic political intent specifically designed to act against Israel and her interests.

They have a right to exist if they can exert authority over the region.

[Voted4Reagan]

Philistine is Palestine in Arabic :p The area has always been known as that.

For a place that never existed, it seems to be on a lot of old maps.

This one from 1864 for example.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/antiquepalestine1864.jpg

The Ottomans owned it back then in 1864...

Not the Palestinians.

[DragonStryk72]

The one in 1948 started it I assume.

Wait, hold on, are you copping to the point the Palestinians have never had any intention of every following even a single cease fire, or peace treaty in that timespan? Because that's what would have to be the case for that to count.

[DragonStryk72]

While innocent Gazans are being murdered and while their small patch of land is held under brutal siege and illegal collective punishment, they will continue to fight back as best they can. That is the reality of the situation.

Where is this "brutal siege" you keep referring to? Apparently my buddy who has been living and working over there has missed it these past 10 years or so.

To "fight back", someone has to be attacking you, which Israel was not. They are now fighting back against the attacks from Palestine.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Actually it was a simple exercise in logic. If the Germans were guilty, or at least a legitimate target, then the Israelis are as well. Really? So you contend that Israel is in a state of war with the Pali's?? If so then the Pali's do not have a damn leg to stand on with their constant gripes about being victims and how bad ole Israel mistreats them. They should form a damn army and fight but hell no they choose terrorism. You can't have it both ways amigo. If its war then Israel has the right to kill all of them if that's what it takes. Instead Israel tries to just live in peace. Its the ffing terrorist Pali's that murder innocent civilians every damn chance they get ! Your logic fails big time on this one. --Tyr

[aboutime]

Really? So you contend that Israel is in a state of war with the Pali's?? If so then the Pali's do not have a damn leg to stand on with their constant gripes about being victims and how bad ole Israel mistreats them. They should form a damn army and fight but hell no they choose terrorism. You can't have it both ways amigo. If its war then Israel has the right to kill all of them if that's what it takes. Instead Israel tries to just live in peace. Its the ffing terrorist Pali's that murder innocent civilians every damn chance they get ! Your logic fails big time on this one. --Tyr


Tyr. Once again, and, as usual. fj is doing nothing more than luring you into another argument.
Whenever fj sets the rules, and boundaries of any discussion (argument). The winner of the argument has been decided...long before fj finishes his post.

fj's constant need to ALWAYS gain Impressing Himself, by always getting the LAST WORD, is nothing short of the dismal, miserable, Obama-like, easily-led, gullible Liberals who have never been able to CHANGE the truth.
So, like fj. They lower themselves deeper into the cesspool of stupidity called IGNORANCE by DEFAULT...Liberally, and progressively speaking, as proven countless times by fj.

[logroller]

Really? So you contend that Israel is in a state of war with the Pali's?? If so then the Pali's do not have a damn leg to stand on with their constant gripes about being victims and how bad ole Israel mistreats them. They should form a damn army and fight but hell no they choose terrorism. You can't have it both ways amigo. If its war then Israel has the right to kill all of them if that's what it takes. Instead Israel tries to just live in peace. Its the ffing terrorist Pali's that murder innocent civilians every damn chance they get ! Your logic fails big time on this one. --Tyr
The Israelis are an occupying military force: is that peaceful or warlike?

[Voted4Reagan]

The Israelis are an occupying military force: is that peaceful or warlike?

Explain...What are they occupying?

[aboutime]

The Israelis are an occupying military force: is that peaceful or warlike?


logroller. That is just as true as saying Our U.S.Military forces are an occupying force for the USA. You obviously need to twist, distort, and downright play with language in order to Impress yourself with your Halloween-like...SELF appeasement that you feel makes you far more superior to every other maggot you emulate.

[logroller]

Explain...What are they occupying?


The Israeli-occupied territories are the territories which have been designated as occupied territory by the United Nations and other international organizations, governments and others to refer to the territory seized by Israel during the Six-Day War of 1967 from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. They consist of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem; much of the Golan Heights; the Gaza Strip, though Israel disputes this and argues that since the implementation of its disengagement from Gaza in 2005 it no longer occupies the territory; and, until 1982, the Sinai Peninsula. The West Bank and Gaza Strip are also referred to as the Palestinian territories or "Occupied Palestinian Territory". The Palestinian Authority, the EU,[1] the International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the UN Security Council[4] consider East Jerusalem to be part of the West Bank and occupied by Israel; Israel considers all of Jerusalem to be its capital and sovereign territory.

The International Court of Justice,[2] the UN General Assembly[3] and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the "Occupying Power".[5] UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel’s occupation “an affront to international law.”[6] The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under "belligerent occupation".[7] According to Talia Sasson, the High Court of Justice in Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than 4 decades that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is in violation of international law.[8]

Israeli governments have preferred the term "disputed territories" in the case of the West Bank.[9][10]


The first use of the term 'territories occupied' was in United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 following the Six-Day War in 1967, which called for "the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East" to be achieved by "the application of both the following principles: ... Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict ... Termination of all claims or states of belligerency" and respect for the right of every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories


logroller. That is just as true as saying Our U.S.Military forces are an occupying force for the USA.


Military occupation is effective provisional control[1] of a certain power over a territory which is not under the formal sovereignty of that entity, without the volition of the actual sovereign.[2][3][4] The intended temporary nature of occupation, when no claim for permanent sovereignty is made by the occupying entity, distinguishes occupation from annexation.[2][5]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupation
So what part of the United States isn't considered to be under permanent sovereign control?


You obviously need to twist, distort, and downright play with language in order to Impress yourself with your Halloween-like...SELF appeasement that you feel makes you far more superior to every other maggot you emulate.
Words mean stuff-- I use them to communicate meaning. Get a dictionary and prove which words I've twisted/distorted the meaning of. Otherwise, you're just a troll.

[jafar00]

Where is this "brutal siege" you keep referring to? Apparently my buddy who has been living and working over there has missed it these past 10 years or so.

To "fight back", someone has to be attacking you, which Israel was not. They are now fighting back against the attacks from Palestine.

Have you ever spoken to a Palestinian who has managed to get through the Israeli checkpoints to get out of Gaza or West Bank? Not an easy thing and the stories they have to tell.... Artillery shells landing on the beach near their children, children shot by snipers in Israeli guard towers along the wall, innocent men arrested for political purposes and held without charge and tortured in Israeli prisons, children used as human shields by IOF troops, huge bombing campaigns, houses bulldozed with the occupants still inside........ I could go on all night. You've had your head buried in the sand for more than a few decades it seems.

[Voted4Reagan]

Have you ever spoken to a Palestinian who has managed to get through the Israeli checkpoints to get out of Gaza or West Bank? Not an easy thing and the stories they have to tell.... Artillery shells landing on the beach near their children, children shot by snipers in Israeli guard towers along the wall, innocent men arrested for political purposes and held without charge and tortured in Israeli prisons, children used as human shields by IOF troops, huge bombing campaigns, houses bulldozed with the occupants still inside........ I could go on all night. You've had your head buried in the sand for more than a few decades it seems.

Yeah... those "BRAVE" Hamas terrorists... Hiding in schools and Hospitals... blowing up school children and pizza parlors. Never even attempting an attack on a Military Target.

Thats what HAMAS and Hezbollah are... COWARDS. They use Human Shields, they use children to hide behind. They hide in Hospitals and schools.

Cowards...one and all.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories



http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_occupation
So what part of the United States isn't considered to be under permanent sovereign control?


Words mean stuff-- I use them to communicate meaning. Get a dictionary and prove which words I've twisted/distorted the meaning of. Otherwise, you're just a troll. Just what is the beef? Are not the supposedly victimized people occupying other territory? What you have is a festering sore kept that way by all the cowardly muslim nations so as to use it to keep striking Israel after having had their punk asses handed to then every time they attacked Israel with their Allah lead and inspired armies. Armies that vastly outnumbered the Israelis in tanks and men but were humiliated every time by being utterly defeated and some of their land taken , now they beg like babies for it to just be given back. Truth is that those defeats each time didn't teach the graven cowards a damn thing. They have an evil inspired hatred coming directly from the master himself! However take comfort in this because it reveals what the God Of Abraham will do to these deniers of his Son our Savior. --Tyr

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17&version=KJV

Isaiah 17

King James Version (KJV)

17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.

6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the Lord God of Israel.

7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.

9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

God says they will get justice delivered upon them. -Tyr

[jafar00]

Yeah... those "BRAVE" Hamas terrorists... Hiding in schools and Hospitals... blowing up school children and pizza parlors. Never even attempting an attack on a Military Target.

Thats what HAMAS and Hezbollah are... COWARDS. They use Human Shields, they use children to hide behind. They hide in Hospitals and schools.

Cowards...one and all.

http://muslimmatters.muslimmatters.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/human-shield-gaza.jpg
http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20130622/shamseddin20130622232520363.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45365000/jpg/_45365526_1.jpg
http://www.sott.net/image/image/18741/full/White_Phosphorus_001.jpg
http://nawaat.org/portail/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/israel_t-shirt.jpg


Just what is the beef? Are not the supposedly victimized people occupying other territory? What you have is a festering sore kept that way by all the cowardly muslim nations so as to use it to keep striking Israel after having had their punk asses handed to then every time they attacked Israel with their Allah lead and inspired armies. Armies that vastly outnumbered the Israelis in tanks and men but were humiliated every time by being utterly defeated and some of their land taken , now they beg like babies for it to just be given back. Truth is that those defeats each time didn't teach the graven cowards a damn thing. They have an evil inspired hatred coming directly from the master himself! However take comfort in this because it reveals what the God Of Abraham will do to these deniers of his Son our Savior. --Tyr God says they will get justice delivered upon them. -Tyr

Shall I point out the irony?

So, are you hating on the Jews or the Muslims here?

[fj1200]

Really? So you contend that Israel is in a state of war with the Pali's?? If so then the Pali's do not have a damn leg to stand on with their constant gripes about being victims and how bad ole Israel mistreats them. They should form a damn army and fight but hell no they choose terrorism. You can't have it both ways amigo. If its war then Israel has the right to kill all of them if that's what it takes. Instead Israel tries to just live in peace. Its the ffing terrorist Pali's that murder innocent civilians every damn chance they get ! Your logic fails big time on this one. --Tyr

No, not trying to have it both ways; that would be the basis of your logic. Trying to determine when a citizen is a legitimate target and when are they not based on personal feelings of the sides involved. What's good for the goose and all...

[aboutime]

Have you ever spoken to a Palestinian who has managed to get through the Israeli checkpoints to get out of Gaza or West Bank? Not an easy thing and the stories they have to tell.... Artillery shells landing on the beach near their children, children shot by snipers in Israeli guard towers along the wall, innocent men arrested for political purposes and held without charge and tortured in Israeli prisons, children used as human shields by IOF troops, huge bombing campaigns, houses bulldozed with the occupants still inside........ I could go on all night. You've had your head buried in the sand for more than a few decades it seems.


jafar. Your defense of Hamas is showing again. By the way. It is not possible for ANYONE to speak to a Palestinian since...there is NO SUCH THING. In order to be called a citizen of a place you always call Palestine...there first...has to be a place with that name.
Of course. As expected, and as usual. You will deny that. Then go on with your endless rants about Israel targeting Innocent people in the West Bank....AT THE SAME TIME...you always manage to NEVER mention the ROCKET ATTACKS on Israel.
Kinda Hypocritical of You...and you prove it.

[logroller]

Just what is the beef? Are not the supposedly victimized people occupying other territory?
Not really. the majority of Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territory have family roots that predate Israel. so you'll have a hard time arguing they don't belong where they've always been. I suppose you think Native Americans were just supposedly victimized people that had their asses hands to them---never mind the repeated breaking of treaties by the us govt-- might makes right! Fight to annihilation or live as an oppressed people.

[jimnyc]

:popcorn:

[Voted4Reagan]

Not really. the majority of Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territory have family roots that predate Israel. so you'll have a hard time arguing they don't belong where they've always been. I suppose you think Native Americans were just supposedly victimized people that had their asses hands to them---never mind the repeated breaking of treaties by the us govt-- might makes right! Fight to annihilation or live as an oppressed people.

Seriously Log? So those who have roots in those areas were under British Control until 1948 and prior to the British they were under Ottoman occupation for 500+ Years. The people known as the Palestinians never governed the land, never had a government of any kind. From ancient times they have never had a government or administered the land.

The only people oppressing the Palestinian people are the Palestinian leaders. They are a corrupt group of familial leaders that hold power and siphon off funds meant to help their people. They do nothing to stop the violence and cry oppression as a way of generating more funds from outside sources.

Take for example the Gaza Green Houses. Enough production to feed tens of thousands of people. Handed over to the Palestinian Authority intact and Looted and Stripped by the people they were meant to provide for,,,THE PALESTINIANS. The result...Food Shortages.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9331863/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/looters-strip-gaza-greenhouses/#.Ut7hA_tOmt8

The Palestinians relish their status as victims. They have worked hard to cultivate that image. Why?

Because they don't have to be accountable.... They blame everything on the Israelis.

It's easier than working to advance their way of life or to advance the cause of peace.

And you Logroller are feeding right into it.

[Voted4Reagan]

Before: Gaza Green Houses as given to the P/A

http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/uploads/2013/01/F110911SL02-195x110.jpg


and After:

http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/050913/050913_gazaloot_hmed_7p.grid-6x2.jpg


http://www.zionism-israel.com/ezine/Dscn5056.jpg

[jafar00]

Seriously Log? So those who have roots in those areas were under British Control until 1948 and prior to the British they were under Ottoman occupation for 500+ Years. The people known as the Palestinians never governed the land, never had a government of any kind. From ancient times they have never had a government or administered the land.

Regardless of what you want to call them, or who occupied them, they still have more right to live in their ancestral lands than the invaders.

[aboutime]

Regardless of what you want to call them, or who occupied them, they still have more right to live in their ancestral lands than the invaders.


jafar. Still comical how you intentionally, and deliberately, always fail to mention Just WHO those invaders really are...as in...HAMAS, and HEZBOLLA, per the perpetual commands of one person who commands both groups from the grave...
http://icansayit.com/images/ARAFAT.JPG. Bet you still follow his intimidation, and low-life standards too!

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Not really. the majority of Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territory have family roots that predate Israel. so you'll have a hard time arguing they don't belong where they've always been. I suppose you think Native Americans were just supposedly victimized people that had their asses hands to them---never mind the repeated breaking of treaties by the us govt-- might makes right! Fight to annihilation or live as an oppressed people. So by your reasoning the Native Americans must be given back their land, right? I mean why only set the scales level over there. Why not back all the other groups that have been conquered and forced off of familial lands? The Aussies should be forced to give back, the French, the Brits, the Germans , the Chinese , and for damn sure the Russians, etc.!! That dog don't hunt amigo. I just illustrated why it doesn't. What's so damn special about these people that only they get land given back? Get back to me when you can answer that and show just cause why they and only they get their land back. This should be good. Have you noticed I've never waged a campaign that promotes Native Americans getting their land back? There is a reason, conquered people must live with having lost. I know its sucks big time but history has it no other way. If losing was being rewarded with a win later we'd all want to lose the first time around, huh? This giving land back has been tried before and it got Israel nothing but more attacks. PERHAPS ISRAEL SHOULD JUST SURRENDER AND AWAIT ITS EXECUTION. After all that's what they truly demand! --Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Regardless of what you want to call them, or who occupied them, they still have more right to live in their ancestral lands than the invaders.
Show me where you are advocating that for the Aborigines of Australia , Hoss. Or any other displaced group throughout history. Show me where the world gets on the bandwagon to right other wrongs. Then show me why these special people are due this correction when no other are! I dare you to try because I'll break you down like a chump if you try. Any person not a damn fool sees this for what it is. A feel good cause created and promoted to try to take back land and conquer Israel with the rest of the world helping because puny Allah can not give his blinded slaves that wish the cry like babies for. If your Allah doesn't give it back why the hell are you crying for it? Its your God ask him to intercede or don't you truly worship him? Seems to me they getting their sorry asses stomped like little 6 year old kids each time they tried was Allah's answer--ever think of that? -Tyr

[DragonStryk72]

You know what? It doesn't matter what happened back in '48, or '67, because both of those conflicts were settled to the mutual agreement of all involved, decades ago. The only thing that now matters is who violates the peace, and here, that's the Palestinians. If the Israelis had opened fire first, I'd be backing them, but they didn't.

If you just keep stacking up conflicts, then we're all going to kill each other tomorrow, as the Celts drive the descendants of the Saxons out of "their" ancestral lands, Moslem Spain is burned back into power, and the Native Americans launch a suicidal fight to drive out anyone not of their ancestry from the West.

Peace agreements were made, they were upheld, and now they have been broken. No, I have no problem with Israel treating a country as hostile when that country's leaders have an openly held goal of eradicating Israel- Not equalizing their power, not regaining whatever they've decided are their "ancestral" lands- but genocidally destroying Israel. The same would be true reversed, but it isn't/

[jafar00]

Show me where you are advocating that for the Aborigines of Australia , Hoss.

Actually, I do support Native Title and respect Aboriginal culture, pilgrim.

[Drummond]

Actually, I do support Native Title and respect Aboriginal culture, pilgrim.

... and if some terrorists came along and decided to fire rockets at Australian cities, at 'Westerners' living in Australia, just because they existed there and ruled the country instead of Aborigines, you'd support them in that ??

Because, Jafar, you SUPPORT HAMAS, WHICH COMMITS EXACTLY THOSE TYPES OF ATTACKS.

[Drummond]

Show me where you are advocating that for the Aborigines of Australia , Hoss. Or any other displaced group throughout history. Show me where the world gets on the bandwagon to right other wrongs. Then show me why these special people are due this correction when no other are! I dare you to try because I'll break you down like a chump if you try. Any person not a damn fool sees this for what it is. A feel good cause created and promoted to try to take back land and conquer Israel with the rest of the world helping because puny Allah can not give his blinded slaves that wish the cry like babies for. If your Allah doesn't give it back why the hell are you crying for it? Its your God ask him to intercede or don't you truly worship him? Seems to me they getting their sorry asses stomped like little 6 year old kids each time they tried was Allah's answer--ever think of that? -Tyr:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

I still can't send you a 'Reputation' comment, Tyr, which in this instance is an enormous pity !

[Drummond]

Regardless of what you want to call them, or who occupied them, they still have more right to live in their ancestral lands than the invaders.

Tyr has already answered you .. brilliantly.

Now it's my turn.

Jafar, I note that you're continuing to avoid answering my previous questionnaire(s). Fact is, for all your propagandising, you cannot show me, or anyone, that 'Palestine' was ever a Nation State.

So, your claim of 'invasion' is automatically a nonsense.

Re-examine, if you will, this post ...

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?44644-Gaza-started-shooting-rockets-on-Israel-cities-again&p=681123#post681123

It includes this information:


For centuries there was no such conflict. In the 19th century the land of Palestine was inhabited by a multicultural population .. approximately 86 percent Muslim, 10 percent Christian, and 4 percent Jewish ... living in peace

I go on to say:


See that, Jafar ? A MULTI-ETHNIC MIX. There was NO one, specific 'people' ... it was just a hotchpotch of diverse people believing different things, being tied, genetically, to diverse ethnicities !!!

A majority may have been Muslim. BUT NOT ALL WERE.

And compare that with Hamas, a self-proclaimed standard-bearer for Muslim values, intolerant of a People not conforming to its worldview !! Tell me, Jafar, are Hamas, your terrorist chums, not acting in total defiance of what is described for that 'Palestine' ??

Now, Jafar. With a 4 percent JEWISH contingent known about from ancient times ... if JEWISH PEOPLE SETTLED IN 'PALESTINE', NOW, HOW COULD THEY BE 'INVADING', WHEN THERE'S AN HISTORICAL PRECEDENT FOR A JEWISH PRESENCE ???

Now consider Hamas's stance, and their 'beliefs'. WHERE in their disgusting Jihadist Charter, do you see tolerance towards Jews ?? Where do they say that they'll 'live side by side with Jews, living in peace' .. ???!!?

I suggest this to you, Jafar. If you truly revere Palestine's past so-called 'existence', THEN YOU SHOULD BE OUTRAGED AT THE HAMAS ATTITUDE.

[aboutime]

This is for jafar...who insists the Israeli's were Invaders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1949_Armistice_Agreements
http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?44644-Gaza-started-shooting-rockets-on-Israel-cities-again

The U.N. decided on the partitioning of what was called Palestine.

"On November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into two states, one Jewish and the other Arab. The UN partition plan divided the country in such a way that each state would have a majority of its own population, although some Jewish settlements would fall within the proposed Palestinian state and many Palestinians would become part of the proposed Jewish state. The territory designated to the Jewish state would be slightly larger than the Palestinian state (56 percent and 43 percent of Palestine, respectively) on the assumption that increasing numbers of Jews would immigrate there. According to the UN partition plan, the area of Jerusalem and Bethlehem was to become an international zone."

[Drummond]

http://muslimmatters.muslimmatters.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/human-shield-gaza.jpg
http://previous.presstv.ir/photo/20130622/shamseddin20130622232520363.jpg
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45365000/jpg/_45365526_1.jpg
http://www.sott.net/image/image/18741/full/White_Phosphorus_001.jpg
http://nawaat.org/portail/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/israel_t-shirt.jpg



Shall I point out the irony?

So, are you hating on the Jews or the Muslims here?

Where the top picture (and a report on it .. and where DID that report come from, anyway ??) is concerned .. I say this. The so-called 13 year old shown was reported as being part of a gang that had thrown stones at, as it says, Israeli border police. It seems eminently reasonable to me that a thug like that should be forced to face the prospect of the very treatment he'd have otherwise have meted out, HIMSELF.

Perhaps it taught him a much-needed lesson. Perhaps, also, his thug friends also learned that lesson.

Here's hoping.

[aboutime]

Where the top picture (and a report on it .. and where DID that report come from, anyway ??) is concerned .. I say this. The so-called 13 year old shown was reported as being part of a gang that had thrown stones at, as it says, Israeli border police. It seems eminently reasonable to me that a thug like that should be forced to face the prospect of the very treatment he'd have otherwise have meted out, HIMSELF.

Perhaps it taught him a much-needed lesson. Perhaps, also, his thug friends also learned that lesson.

Here's hoping.



Sir Drummond. Your questions about WHERE those photos came from will not be answered Honestly.

Truth is. And most all of us know, very well. Having experienced the endless false rants from jafar, that the One Word that fits is "PROPAGANDA".

[Drummond]

Sir Drummond. Your questions about WHERE those photos came from will not be answered Honestly.

Truth is. And most all of us know, very well. Having experienced the endless false rants from jafar, that the One Word that fits is "PROPAGANDA".:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Aboutime, I'm in the same position here, as I was with Tyr .. I can't attribute a 'reputation' comment in your direction. Wish I could respond in kind to what I receive !!

[aboutime]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Aboutime, I'm in the same position here, as I was with Tyr .. I can't attribute a 'reputation' comment in your direction. Wish I could respond in kind to what I receive !!


Not a problem. It's not the end of the World. More of a pleasure knowing Tyr, and You, with several others actually pay attention to what is going on, rather than trying to be self-appointed KING of nothingness.:laugh: If you get my drift?:laugh:

[logroller]

You know what? It doesn't matter what happened back in '48, or '67, because both of those conflicts were settled to the mutual agreement of all involved, decades ago.

Specifically, to which "mutual agreements" are you referring?

[logroller]

Where the top picture (and a report on it .. and where DID that report come from, anyway ??) is concerned .. I say this. The so-called 13 year old shown was reported as being part of a gang that had thrown stones at, as it says, Israeli border police. It seems eminently reasonable to me that a thug like that should be forced to face the prospect of the very treatment he'd have otherwise have meted out, HIMSELF.

Perhaps it taught him a much-needed lesson. Perhaps, also, his thug friends also learned that lesson.

Here's hoping.
Ah yes, tit for tat-- I suppose you think that Palestinians launching rockets that demolish homes of the Israeli "civil administration" (read: IDF) is a 'much-needed lesson' as well? Here's hoping, but I doubt it. Just admit you think might makes right.

[jafar00]

Ah yes, tit for tat-- I suppose you think that Palestinians launching rockets that demolish homes of the Israeli "civil administration" (read: IDF) is a 'much-needed lesson' as well? Here's hoping, but I doubt it. Just admit you think might makes right.

The outpouring of grief and the resulting operation "Cast Lead" launched from the capture of a single IOF soldier Gilad Schalit is a testament to the hypocrisy you described here.

[logroller]

The outpouring of grief and the resulting operation "Cast Lead" launched from the capture of a single IOF soldier Gilad Schalit is a testament to the hypocrisy you described here.

There's a bunch of ideological extremists on both sides that use violence and other deplorable acts of coercion to undermine the peace process. Both sides must work to coexist and whether one labels them as stateless cowardly muslim terrorists or Zionist invaders the result is counterproductive to that goal.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Ah yes, tit for tat-- I suppose you think that Palestinians launching rockets that demolish homes of the Israeli "civil administration" (read: IDF) is a 'much-needed lesson' as well? Here's hoping, but I doubt it. Just admit you think might makes right. Who says that right can not already have the might? Israel besieged by overwhelming numbers has survived for over 60 years after repeated attacks . And done so living in a nation no bigger than Rhode Island while having faced off against the combines military forces of Egypt, Jordan , Syria etc. Looks to me like the God of Abraham has kept his word. And Israel has to answer the attacks made upon it or else the vermin will just increase and increase those attacks. When you are getting the hell beat out of you by an attacker does laying there just taking it make the attacker stop or does it more often lead to you getting a worse beating than if you had defended yourself and gave back some punishment. Tit for tat is how the world operates or are you suggesting Israel never respond and just let it's citizens be murdered at the leisure of its enemies? Fighting back is called --survival--, I highly recommend it myself. Don't you? --Tyr

[jafar00]

Fighting back is called --survival--, I highly recommend it myself. Don't you? --Tyr

I might send a care package to Gaza wrapped in this quote to show them that fighting back is a good thing ;)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I might send a care package to Gaza wrapped in this quote to show them that fighting back is a good thing ;)
Good. While you are at it explain how real men fight back so they'll stop being the slimy little graven cowards that they are now when they target and murder innocent women and children. Also perhaps explain to their dumbasses that begging like children for the rest of the world to help them in their murdering ways is about as cowardly as one can get. --Tyr

[jafar00]

Good. While you are at it explain how real men fight back so they'll stop being the slimy little graven cowards that they are now when they target and murder innocent women and children. Also perhaps explain to their dumbasses that begging like children for the rest of the world to help them in their murdering ways is about as cowardly as one can get. --Tyr

I meant when they fight back with rockets and stuff. :p

[Voted4Reagan]

I meant when they fight back with rockets and stuff. :p

When your "BRAVE SOLDIERS" of Gaza go head to head in a Military battle against IDF Soldiers get back to us.

As of now the "Soldiers" of Gaza are just little cowards hiding behind women and Children.

[Drummond]

Ah yes, tit for tat-- I suppose you think that Palestinians launching rockets that demolish homes of the Israeli "civil administration" (read: IDF) is a 'much-needed lesson' as well? Here's hoping, but I doubt it. Just admit you think might makes right.

I don't really follow this. Since when could a terrorist attack (or in the case of an outfit like Hamas, an entire campaign of them !!) be considered a 'much needed lesson' applied to those on the receiving-end ?

Do criminals teach the police a 'much needed lesson' when they fire guns at police ?

Israel v 'Palestine' is a contest between a Nation State suffering terrorist attacks from Muslims who hate their guts, and a location (or so-called 'people') who are doing all the hating, and backing it up with murderous attacks. So .. 'tit for tat', I suggest, really doesn't cover it !!!

As for 'might makes right', well, Tyr has done one of his stellar jobs in answering you. I don't feel I need add a thing on that score.

[Drummond]

When your "BRAVE SOLDIERS" of Gaza go head to head in a Military battle against IDF Soldiers get back to us.

As of now the "Soldiers" of Gaza are just little cowards hiding behind women and Children.:clap::clap::clap::clap:

[Drummond]

There's a bunch of ideological extremists on both sides that use violence and other deplorable acts of coercion to undermine the peace process. Both sides must work to coexist and whether one labels them as stateless cowardly muslim terrorists or Zionist invaders the result is counterproductive to that goal.

I suggest you read the Hamas Charter. There's just no mistaking their utter opposition to peace talks of any description.

[Drummond]

Where the top picture (and a report on it .. and where DID that report come from, anyway ??) is concerned .. I say this. The so-called 13 year old shown was reported as being part of a gang that had thrown stones at, as it says, Israeli border police. It seems eminently reasonable to me that a thug like that should be forced to face the prospect of the very treatment he'd have otherwise have meted out, HIMSELF.

Perhaps it taught him a much-needed lesson. Perhaps, also, his thug friends also learned that lesson.

Here's hoping.

Jafar ... still waiting on the source of your report.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?44644-Gaza-started-shooting-rockets-on-Israel-cities-again&p=681193#post681193

Care to provide a link ?

[aboutime]

There's a bunch of ideological extremists on both sides that use violence and other deplorable acts of coercion to undermine the peace process. Both sides must work to coexist and whether one labels them as stateless cowardly muslim terrorists or Zionist invaders the result is counterproductive to that goal.


logroller. All of what you said, and tried to explain WOULD BE REASONABLE in almost every other case. But...in this case. Hezbolla, Hamas, and the Palestinians have NO INTENTION OF EVER GETTING A PEACEFUL SOLUTION to any of the problems...UNLESS, They can destroy ALL ISRAELI'S.

Therefore, and you...being the self-admitted smarter one here, should know. PEACE is not possible when their side...DOESN'T REALLY WANT PEACE.

[logroller]

Who says that right can not already have the might? Israel besieged by overwhelming numbers has survived for over 60 years after repeated attacks . And done so living in a nation no bigger than Rhode Island while having faced off against the combines military forces of Egypt, Jordan , Syria etc. Looks to me like the God of Abraham has kept his word. And Israel has to answer the attacks made upon it or else the vermin will just increase and increase those attacks. When you are getting the hell beat out of you by an attacker does laying there just taking it make the attacker stop or does it more often lead to you getting a worse beating than if you had defended yourself and gave back some punishment. Tit for tat is how the world operates or are you suggesting Israel never respond and just let it's citizens be murdered at the leisure of its enemies? Fighting back is called --survival--, I highly recommend it myself. Don't you? --Tyr
I'm no humanitarian; never made such a claim nor proferred ideological constructs that support such. But so far as Tit for tat being how the world works...as gandhi said "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". Iirc you said gandhi's peaceful nonviolent ways are the true path, the CORRECT path....except when survival is on the line apparently. Perhaps you could explain how demolishing Palestinian homes is necessary for Israel's survival.

[aboutime]

I'm no humanitarian; never made such a claim nor proferred ideological constructs that support such. But so far as Tit for tat being how the world works...as gandhi said "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". Iirc you said gandhi's peaceful nonviolent ways are the true path, the CORRECT path....except when survival is on the line apparently. Perhaps you could explain how demolishing Palestinian homes is necessary for Israel's survival.


logroller. Two questions. When did you adopt the OBAMA train of thought on Israel?
Second. When did you become a cheerleader for HAMAS, and HEZBOLLA?

[Drummond]

Actually, Jafar ... it may not be necessary for you to provide that link (... but by all means do so anyway, if you can).

I've found the article you posted on 'Future Fastforward's' site.

See ...

http://futurefastforward.com/component/content/article/906-misc/823-the-day-israel-used-a-boy-aged-13-as-a-human-shield

I thought of checking out something of its 'bona fides'. So it was that I came across ....

http://futurefastforward.com/about.html

This leads to a little essay by one Matthias Chang, who evidently runs the site. It turns out that he's written books, with these titles ...

FUTURE FASTFORWARD - THE ZIONIST ANGLO-AMERICAN EMPIRE MELTDOWN
BRAINWASHED FOR WAR - PROGRAMMED TO KILL .. THE ZIONIST GLOBAL WAR AGENDA

Anyone care to hazard a guess as to whether any form of bias might be evident ?

The link provides a fairly lengthy piece. Contained within it, I see ..


I seek your indulgence to consider:

How did we, the people of the third world and our lands become the strategic interest of the United States? Why should our resources be controlled by U.S. multinational corporations? Why must we be made cannon-fodder for the Zionist Global Agenda?

Why must Islam and its 1.6 billion adherents be demonized?


America lost over 50,000 of her bravest and most loyal in the quagmire of Vietnam. Over 2,500 have been slaughtered, and tens of thousands crippled for life in the Iraq debacle. And more will die in the years to come.

How many more lives must be sacrificed before we wake up to the folly of the policies of the Zionist-inspired neo-conservatives?


I plead before you, the good people of America, that you must reclaim America from the clutches of the Zionist-inspired neo-conservatives.

No form of agenda, or bias, in any of that lot, then .... :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[logroller]

logroller. All of what you said, and tried to explain WOULD BE REASONABLE in almost every other case. But...in this case. Hezbolla, Hamas, and the Palestinians have NO INTENTION OF EVER GETTING A PEACEFUL SOLUTION to any of the problems...UNLESS, They can destroy ALL ISRAELI'S.
Oh really?

Among Israelis--though the arguments against the package had been found more convincing--a modest majority (and half of Israeli Jews) recommended that Israel accept the framework. Among those who initially said they would oppose the deal, only half of them (one in four overall) were fundamentally opposed to the package’s terms. The other half said they were so sure the Palestinians would not accept the deal that there was no point in Israel expressing its readiness. Thus when Israeli Jews were asked how Israel should respond if the Palestinians were to accept the deal, one in ten shifted their position-- raising support to over six in ten.


Only four in ten Palestinians initially said that they would recommend accepting the framework. But among those who initially said they would oppose the deal, only half of them (three in ten overall) were fundamentally opposed to its terms. The other half said they were so sure the Israelis would not accept the deal there would be no point in the Palestinians expressing their readiness. When Palestinians were asked how their leaders should respond if Israel were to accept the deal, two in ten shifted their position, raising support to six in ten—almost identical to the level of support among Israelis.http://public-consultation.org/pdf/is-pal-report.pdf
Don't buy into what ideological rabble rousers say; look into it yourself.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I meant when they fight back with rockets and stuff. :p When are they going to form an army and fight ? I'll tell you when.. When hell freezes over!! They are too damn cowardly to fight it out --victor takes all. Big reason I have such utter contempt for them is the cowardly way they choose to fight. Terrorism is a tactic of graven cowards IMHO. IIS NOT HARD TO ATTACK UNARMED CIVILIANS. EVEN LESS WHEN THEY ARE WOMEN AND CHILDREN. How about you tell them to grow a damn backbone if they truly want to wage war?--Tyr

[logroller]

logroller. Two questions. When did you adopt the OBAMA train of thought on Israel?
Second. When did you become a cheerleader for HAMAS, and HEZBOLLA?
I come to my own conclusions and perhaps your cognitive disorder prevents you remembering I placed blame on both sides-- you even quoted it.

[aboutime]

Oh really?
http://public-consultation.org/pdf/is-pal-report.pdf
Don't buy into what ideological rabble rousers say; look into it yourself.



Yes. Really. I didn't stutter, and I fully expected you would answer as you did.

Nothing else needs to be said. And thanks for the advice. I don't buy into what you say.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I'm no humanitarian; never made such a claim nor proferred ideological constructs that support such. But so far as Tit for tat being how the world works...as gandhi said "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind". Iirc you said gandhi's peaceful nonviolent ways are the true path, the CORRECT path....except when survival is on the line apparently. Perhaps you could explain how demolishing Palestinian homes is necessary for Israel's survival. Right after you explain how their relentless terrorism solves anything and justify their deliberate murdering of innocent women and children. I'd say knocking down some houses is nothing compared to the murdering campaign they have waged for decades. Gandhi's path was correct because the Indians are not the pure hate filled murdering savages with the pure black hearts that the Muslim Pali's are. Just that simple. Think that those wretched vermin will ever follow a path like that? I do , right after hell freezes over. Send me a note when hell freezes. --Tyr

[jafar00]

When your "BRAVE SOLDIERS" of Gaza go head to head in a Military battle against IDF Soldiers get back to us.

As of now the "Soldiers" of Gaza are just little cowards hiding behind women and Children.

Give them the same weapons and you might have a point. Rocks, small arms and bottle rockets aren't really a match for guided missiles, attack helicopters, fighter jet and tanks all backed up by satellite intel.


Jafar ... still waiting on the source of your report.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?44644-Gaza-started-shooting-rockets-on-Israel-cities-again&p=681193#post681193

Care to provide a link ?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=palestinian+child+tied+to+jeep+israeli+human+sh ield


logroller. Two questions. When did you adopt the OBAMA train of thought on Israel?
Second. When did you become a cheerleader for HAMAS, and HEZBOLLA?

No answer to logroller's question about demolishing people's houses? Usually done with them still in it.

[logroller]

Right after you explain how their relentless terrorism solves anything and justify their deliberate murdering of innocent women and children. I'd say knocking down some houses is nothing compared to the murdering campaign they have waged for decades. Gandhi's path was correct because the Indians are not the pure hate filled murdering savages with the pure black hearts that the Muslim Pali's are. Just that simple. Think that those wretched vermin will ever follow a path like that? I do , right after hell freezes over. Send me a note when hell freezes. --Tyr
A Non-response...because the facts simply don't support your assertions tyr. please note that I assert the blame is shared, so I need not present support for a premise I haven't claimed but nonetheless who's the more relentless terrorist, really?
According to the United Nations, since 2000, and not including operation cast lead, the number of Palestinian civilians killed was 5 times the number of Israeli civilians killed. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/injuries.html#source
There's no right side here; they're both to blame and they both need to knock off the bs. Pointing fingers doesn't help. I understand you don't like or trust Muslims and you're free to hold any opinion you desire but if you turn a blind eye to the injustice that has been committed by the Israelis than your heart is no less blackened than the muslim palis you despis-- I've little doubt Gandhi would agree with me on that.

[aboutime]

Give them the same weapons and you might have a point. Rocks, small arms and bottle rockets aren't really a match for guided missiles, attack helicopters, fighter jet and tanks all backed up by satellite intel.



http://lmgtfy.com/?q=palestinian+child+tied+to+jeep+israeli+human+sh ield



No answer to logroller's question about demolishing people's houses? Usually done with them still in it.


And....no response, or answer from logroller to my questions. Which makes both of you supporters of Terrorist groups...without any doubt.

[logroller]

I don't really follow this. Since when could a terrorist attack (or in the case of an outfit like Hamas, an entire campaign of them !!) be considered a 'much needed lesson' applied to those on the receiving-end ?

Do criminals teach the police a 'much needed lesson' when they fire guns at police ?

Israel v 'Palestine' is a contest between a Nation State suffering terrorist attacks from Muslims who hate their guts, and a location (or so-called 'people') who are doing all the hating, and backing it up with murderous attacks. So .. 'tit for tat', I suggest, really doesn't cover it !!!

As for 'might makes right', well, Tyr has done one of his stellar jobs in answering you. I don't feel I need add a thing on that score.
Oh yeah, a stellar job indeed....of condoning fascist imperialism. I needn't any more added either; history is rife with supremacist ideologies driving national expansion.

The actions of the Israelis are AGAINST THE LAW: the illegal annexation of east jeruseleum; the illegal destruction of private property in occupied lands; the illegal displacement of civilians; and the illegal settlement in occupied lands...which makes Israel criminal. With the exception of east jeruseleum (which Israel alone deems legitimate), no one even disputes the illegality of Israel's actions, not even their own courts. That's not to say two wrongs make a right-- they don't-- but my opposition seems keen to ignore the facts which refute the narrative that Israel/Palestine is good/bad conflict.

Now I Submit as fact that IDF/'Civil Administration' doesn't make all Israelis criminals but neither do the actions of Hamas make all Palestinians criminals. Now if you prefer to think that by virtue of shared religion the predominantly muslim Palestine is culpable for the actions of their brethren then you must, likewise hold the Jewish population accountable for the actions their own....unless, that is to say you believe the Muslims to be an inferior people....in which case you join the legions of likewise motivated supremacists who believe that the universal moral imperative command that sword is the ultimate arbiter of justice. Perhaps it is, but then one can hardly condemn the savagery of beheading anymore than demolishing another's home. This is truth, like it or not.

Just a point of fact-- I disagree with jafar on whether Israel has a right to exist-- I believe they do. I believe his belief is untenable and derisive of the peace process and I invite him to debate me upon this one and one.

With that said, It is dishonest for others to accuse me of supporting those who hold the belief that Israel doesn't-- whether it be Hamas, Iran or another. I recognize how this logic performs as a rhetorical device but I HAVE put forth impartial evidence that a minority of either side hold ideological beliefs that reject peaceful coexistence. What I see is a bias towards rationalizing actions based upon this minority, and as tyr once stipulated: guiding our actions upon the beliefs of a minority is the preface of tyranny. I could hardly disagree.

So while I'm sure I've given you much to consider, Do you believe these 'people' (Palestinians) have a right to live in that location (Palestine), yes or no?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

A Non-response...because the facts simply don't support your assertions tyr. please note that I assert the blame is shared, so I need not present support for a premise I haven't claimed but nonetheless who's the more relentless terrorist, really?
According to the United Nations, since 2000, and not including operation cast lead, the number of Palestinian civilians killed was 5 times the number of Israeli civilians killed. http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/injuries.html#source
There's no right side here; they're both to blame and they both need to knock off the bs. Pointing fingers doesn't help. I understand you don't like or trust Muslims and you're free to hold any opinion you desire but if you turn a blind eye to the injustice that has been committed by the Israelis than your heart is no less blackened than the muslim palis you despis-- I've little doubt Gandhi would agree with me on that. A man has a right to not trust a poisonous snake or to fear a hungry tiger. Good judgment demands both cautions and actions that are necessarily taken in both cases. Do they have a right to live in the area --Yes. Are they living in the area already --yes. What I am adamantly against is their murdering ways and constant cry for foreign nations to aid them in their fight. A fight in which they employ the most evil and murderous tactics of terror. For me that points to the heart of the matter. Now you may point out Israeli's actions but like almost everything in this world one must always choose the lesser evil. I believe I have done so. I rely on my knowledge of history, the muslims and information gathered from various sources. If the Israeli's were using a campaign of terrorist tactics to deliberately murder their opposition I'd go against them too. Attacks delivered in response to the terrorist attacks of their enemies are not terrorism but justice delivered IMHO. Consider this if you will, they pull the tiger's tail(terrorist attacks-bombing) then step back and point at its response as aggression. I say stop pulling its damn tail but no they want to wage war the way they like. If Canada was will -nilly lobbing rockets, mortars and bombs on New York City murdering its citizens I doubt you would defend them in the manner you just did the Pali's. Am I right on that? Care to show me when the Palis have ever stopped except to reload and re-arm....-TYR

[aboutime]

Oh yeah, a stellar job indeed....of condoning fascist imperialism. I needn't any more added either; history is rife with supremacist ideologies driving national expansion.

The actions of the Israelis are AGAINST THE LAW: the illegal annexation of east jeruseleum; the illegal destruction of private property in occupied lands; the illegal displacement of civilians; and the illegal settlement in occupied lands...which makes Israel criminal. With the exception of east jeruseleum (which Israel alone deems legitimate), no one even disputes the illegality of Israel's actions, not even their own courts. That's not to say two wrongs make a right-- they don't-- but my opposition seems keen to ignore the facts which refute the narrative that Israel/Palestine is good/bad conflict.

Now I Submit as fact that IDF/'Civil Administration' doesn't make all Israelis criminals but neither do the actions of Hamas make all Palestinians criminals. Now if you prefer to think that by virtue of shared religion the predominantly muslim Palestine is culpable for the actions of their brethren then you must, likewise hold the Jewish population accountable for the actions their own....unless, that is to say you believe the Muslims to be an inferior people....in which case you join the legions of likewise motivated supremacists who believe that the universal moral imperative command that sword is the ultimate arbiter of justice. Perhaps it is, but then one can hardly condemn the savagery of beheading anymore than demolishing another's home. This is truth, like it or not.

Just a point of fact-- I disagree with jafar on whether Israel has a right to exist-- I believe they do. I believe his belief is untenable and derisive of the peace process and I invite him to debate me upon this one and one.

With that said, It is dishonest for others to accuse me of supporting those who hold the belief that Israel doesn't-- whether it be Hamas, Iran or another. I recognize how this logic performs as a rhetorical device but I HAVE put forth impartial evidence that a minority of either side hold ideological beliefs that reject peaceful coexistence. What I see is a bias towards rationalizing actions based upon this minority, and as tyr once stipulated: guiding our actions upon the beliefs of a minority is the preface of tyranny. I could hardly disagree.

So while I'm sure I've given you much to consider, Do you believe these 'people' (Palestinians) have a right to live in that location (Palestine), yes or no?



NOTHING DISHONEST ABOUT USING THE TRUTH to make a point..which you refuse to address honestly. So. I am still convinced...you, and jafar fully support Hamas, and Hezbolla. Intentionally overlooking, and denying that Israeli's have a right to defend themselves.
You condone Palestinian rocket attacks as their right. But you deny Israel the same???
HYPOCRISY is your game, and HYPOCRISY is your name.

[Drummond]

Oh yeah, a stellar job indeed....of condoning fascist imperialism. I needn't any more added either; history is rife with supremacist ideologies driving national expansion.

The actions of the Israelis are AGAINST THE LAW: the illegal annexation of east jeruseleum; the illegal destruction of private property in occupied lands; the illegal displacement of civilians; and the illegal settlement in occupied lands...which makes Israel criminal. With the exception of east jeruseleum (which Israel alone deems legitimate), no one even disputes the illegality of Israel's actions, not even their own courts. That's not to say two wrongs make a right-- they don't-- but my opposition seems keen to ignore the facts which refute the narrative that Israel/Palestine is good/bad conflict.

Now I Submit as fact that IDF/'Civil Administration' doesn't make all Israelis criminals but neither do the actions of Hamas make all Palestinians criminals. Now if you prefer to think that by virtue of shared religion the predominantly muslim Palestine is culpable for the actions of their brethren then you must, likewise hold the Jewish population accountable for the actions their own....unless, that is to say you believe the Muslims to be an inferior people....in which case you join the legions of likewise motivated supremacists who believe that the universal moral imperative command that sword is the ultimate arbiter of justice. Perhaps it is, but then one can hardly condemn the savagery of beheading anymore than demolishing another's home. This is truth, like it or not.

Just a point of fact-- I disagree with jafar on whether Israel has a right to exist-- I believe they do. I believe his belief is untenable and derisive of the peace process and I invite him to debate me upon this one and one.

With that said, It is dishonest for others to accuse me of supporting those who hold the belief that Israel doesn't-- whether it be Hamas, Iran or another. I recognize how this logic performs as a rhetorical device but I HAVE put forth impartial evidence that a minority of either side hold ideological beliefs that reject peaceful coexistence. What I see is a bias towards rationalizing actions based upon this minority, and as tyr once stipulated: guiding our actions upon the beliefs of a minority is the preface of tyranny. I could hardly disagree.

So while I'm sure I've given you much to consider, Do you believe these 'people' (Palestinians) have a right to live in that location (Palestine), yes or no?

First point .. I don't think that 'Fascist imperialism' applies at all. Certainly not where Israel is concerned, anyway.

Judgment calls like that one are made from a mindset, a psychology, which people such as you and I can afford and be attuned to because we live in societies which enjoy at least a reasonable level of security and stability ('9/11' and '7/7' notwithstanding). But .. that same standard can hardly be applied to Israel, and her history from 1948 onwards. She has been surrounded with Nation States totally hostile to her very existence. Wars have been fought based on race and religious hatreds. Israel is armed to the teeth, massively so compared to her neighbours, because she has no choice in the matter: and even despite THIS being true, she still suffers terrorist bombardments and holocaustal threats .. and with the Nation State which issued these, developing a very technology suited to making good on them !!

Imagine the mindset of a people enduring all of this level of threat, enduring it for committing the 'crime' of mere EXISTENCE. Isn't it obvious that nobody can expect the same moderation and restraints to be natural to that mindset ? More -- consider the propaganda war still being ranged against Israel by a terrorist State, run by terrorists, who claim that THEY are victims, when the truth is that their very Charter is implacably committed to warfare against those they claim 'victimise' them ??

So you see, it just isn't reasonable to expect the same standards that you and I enjoy through our far more secure existences.

You say that the actions of Hamas don't make all Palestinians criminals. Literally speaking, I must agree. Nonetheless .. Hamas does govern Gaza because the population there voted them into power, which means that there is a clear case to be made that Hamas DOES represent Palestinians as a whole. Like it or not, that population bears responsibility for what they've given power to, through democratic means.

If, somehow, the American people managed to vote terrorists into the White House, would you not think that it was the electorate that held responsibility for that ?? Who ELSE would you care to blame ?

You say that 'a minority of either side hold ideological beliefs that reject peaceful coexistence.' Where Hamas - the GOVERNING power in Gaza - is concerned, how can that be considered a 'minority', when warfare, a blanket rejection of peace processes, is written into their very Charter, 'enshrined' as a bog-standard yardstick from which they are mandated to operate ??? Hamas exists to oppose Israel, and to smash its existence !! No latitude for any permanent variation from that position is possible, for as long as their Charter exists.

Do you not think that Israel knows this, and further knows how implacable the forces are which are ranged against it ? Is it any wonder that they're inclined to NOT show them the level of respect and deference which you somehow think is their duty ?

[aboutime]

First point .. I don't think that 'Fascist imperialism' applies at all. Certainly not where Israel is concerned, anyway.

Judgment calls like that one are made from a mindset, a psychology, which people such as you and I can afford and be attuned to because we live in societies which enjoy at least a reasonable level of security and stability ('9/11' and '7/7' notwithstanding). But .. that same standard can hardly be applied to Israel, and her history from 1948 onwards. She has been surrounded with Nation States totally hostile to her very existence. Wars have been fought based on race and religious hatreds. Israel is armed to the teeth, massively so compared to her neighbours, because she has no choice in the matter: and even despite THIS being true, she still suffers terrorist bombardments and holocaustal threats .. and with the Nation State which issued these, developing a very technology suited to making good on them !!

Imagine the mindset of a people enduring all of this level of threat, enduring it for committing the 'crime' of mere EXISTENCE. Isn't it obvious that nobody can expect the same moderation and restraints to be natural to that mindset ? More -- consider the propaganda war still being ranged against Israel by a terrorist State, run by terrorists, who claim that THEY are victims, when the truth is that their very Charter is implacably committed to warfare against those they claim 'victimise' them ??

So you see, it just isn't reasonable to expect the same standards that you and I enjoy through our far more secure existences.

You say that the actions of Hamas don't make all Palestinians criminals. Literally speaking, I must agree. Nonetheless .. Hamas does govern Gaza because the population there voted them into power, which means that there is a clear case to be made that Hamas DOES represent Palestinians as a whole. Like it or not, that population bears responsibility for what they've given power to, through democratic means.

If, somehow, the American people managed to vote terrorists into the White House, would you not think that it was the electorate that held responsibility for that ?? Who ELSE would you care to blame ?

You say that 'a minority of either side hold ideological beliefs that reject peaceful coexistence.' Where Hamas - the GOVERNING power in Gaza - is concerned, how can that be considered a 'minority', when warfare, a blanket rejection of peace processes, is written into their very Charter, 'enshrined' as a bog-standard yardstick from which they are mandated to operate ??? Hamas exists to oppose Israel, and to smash its existence !! No latitude for any permanent variation from that position is possible, for as long as their Charter exists.

Do you not think that Israel knows this, and further knows how implacable the forces are which are ranged against it ? Is it any wonder that they're inclined to NOT show them the level of respect and deference which you somehow think is their duty ?



Sir Drummond. What I find most interesting about how this thread has developed is. I suspect, we have actually, and subliminally been introduced to RELATIVES in Jafar, an Logroller.
This man http://icansayit.com/images/ARAFAT.JPG would be so proud of how the both of them so fully approve, and support Hamas.

[logroller]

Sir Drummond. What I find most interesting about how this thread has developed is. I suspect, we have actually, and subliminally been introduced to RELATIVES in Jafar, an Logroller.
This man http://icansayit.com/images/ARAFAT.JPG would be so proud of how the both of them so fully approve, and support Hamas.
So Arafat was a supporter of Hamas? Intriguing considering that fatah and Hamas were/ are political rivals. Way to not let facts get in the way of your trolling.

[aboutime]

So Arafat was a supporter of Hamas? Intriguing considering that fatah and Hamas were/ are political rivals. Way to not let facts get in the way of your trolling.


OH MY. You are defending against it...because I said something you didn't like. How comical of you?
So what?
ARAFAT could be, and might be still living...as far as those you defend so well might think.
They made him a Martyr long ago, and you..of all people, who claim to be so much smarter than the rest of us...should know. Those people...no matter what group you call them....still desire to NEVER GET ANY PEACEFUL resolutions to the Middle East problems.
So..you defend them anyway...since it's more fun for you to point out MY errors..using the wrong name, than to honestly admit. You either want to be their defender, or you can choose to be against them. LIKE THINKING PEOPLE who do not defend them...as you do.

[logroller]

OH MY. You are defending against it...because I said something you didn't like. How comical of you?
So what?
ARAFAT could be, and might be still living...as far as those you defend so well might think.
They made him a Martyr long ago, and you..of all people, who claim to be so much smarter than the rest of us...should know. Those people...no matter what group you call them....still desire to NEVER GET ANY PEACEFUL resolutions to the Middle East problems.
So..you defend them anyway...since it's more fun for you to point out MY errors..using the wrong name, than to honestly admit. You either want to be their defender, or you can choose to be against them. LIKE THINKING PEOPLE who do not defend them...as you do.
I realize it's a foreign concept to 'like-thinking people', but I think for myself.
its not that I didn't like what you said, its that what you said is smply untrue. For example:
'Arafat the martyr'....despite the fact I've never mentioned, let alone defended him. Whatever conspiracy theory you wish to promulgate about some mystery poison is a pittance of reality compared to the factual certainty of a right wing Israeli assassinating Rabin (arafat's counterpart in the Oslo peace agreements). But like I said, don't let facts interfere with your trolling.
Your flaws aren't in poor word choice but a fundamental failure of logic predicated upon false assumption.

And please point out where I claimed to be smarter than anyone else. The fact of the matter is that claim has been been put forth by others, not I, and this makes it hard to be humble. But not so with respect to your asserting such; you don't set the bar very high.

[aboutime]

I realize it's a foreign concept to 'like-thinking people', but I think for myself.
its not that I didn't like what you said, its that what you said is smply untrue. For example:
'Arafat the martyr'....despite the fact I've never mentioned, let alone defended him. Whatever conspiracy theory you wish to promulgate about some mystery poison is a pittance of reality compared to the factual certainty of a right wing Israeli assassinating Rabin (arafat's counterpart in the Oslo peace agreements). But like I said, don't let facts interfere with your trolling.
Your flaws aren't in poor word choice but a fundamental failure of logic predicated upon false assumption.

And please point out where I claimed to be smarter than anyone else. The fact of the matter is that claim has been been put forth by others, not I, and this makes it hard to be humble. But not so with respect to your asserting such; you don't set the bar very high.



No bar required when looking down at you. Need a shovel, or a ladder?
Bet you are still really, really impressed with your self-gratification in using the language like Obama. Sadly. The ONE person who is impressed...remains you.
You practice your patronizing so often, and so well. You should award yourself like Obama did.

[logroller]

No bar required when looking down at you. Need a shovel, or a ladder?
Bet you are still really, really impressed with your self-gratification in using the language like Obama. Sadly. The ONE person who is impressed...remains you.
You practice your patronizing so often, and so well. You should award yourself like Obama did.

the truth of the matter is id much prefer that you try to honesty debate with facts and sound logic. so how about a one-on-one--the topic: Israeli destruction of Palestinian homes is an illegal act. I'll even let you choose for or against.

[gabosaurus]

the truth of the matter is id much prefer that you try to honesty debate with facts and sound logic.

You do realize who you are talking to, right? You will find a beach full of penguins before you get facts and sound logic from AT.

[aboutime]

You do realize who you are talking to, right? You will find a beach full of penguins before you get facts and sound logic from AT.


GABBY and LOT. A FULL HOUSE couldn't beat the TWO of you as a Pair.

[logroller]

GABBY and LOT. A FULL HOUSE couldn't beat the TWO of you as a Pair.
I've issued a challenge. You in or what?

[aboutime]

I've issued a challenge. You in or what?


Not possible. You ARE the challenged one.