Lack of personal responsibility remains rampant

[gabosaurus]

Want to find out why so many kids turn out bad? Become a secondary school counselor or administrator.
A couple of years ago, we had problems with a girl who constantly causing trouble. Her mom (a single parent) always thought we were mistaken, or that we hated her. Girl finally did something that got her sent to juvenile detention.
Mom lawyered up and got her kid released on probation. During which time she participated in an armed robbery that got her sent to prison. She was 17 and sentenced as an adult. Second day in prison, she mouthed off to someone and got beaten up. Mom didn't know until she went for a visit a few weeks later.
We know this because mom came up and told us. She blamed it on the schools for sending her kid to juvenile detention, which "made her a criminal."

If you discipline your kids appropriately, God bless you. Not enough parents do.

[Kathianne]

Want to find out why so many kids turn out bad? Become a secondary school counselor or administrator.
A couple of years ago, we had problems with a girl who constantly causing trouble. Her mom (a single parent) always thought we were mistaken, or that we hated her. Girl finally did something that got her sent to juvenile detention.
Mom lawyered up and got her kid released on probation. During which time she participated in an armed robbery that got her sent to prison. She was 17 and sentenced as an adult. Second day in prison, she mouthed off to someone and got beaten up. Mom didn't know until she went for a visit a few weeks later.
We know this because mom came up and told us. She blamed it on the schools for sending her kid to juvenile detention, which "made her a criminal."

If you discipline your kids appropriately, God bless you. Not enough parents do.

In some ways, I think what I'm about to embark upon may be easier in some ways than dealing with 'privileged' kids. When the privileged fail, there's so many chances to 'overcome' then there is that wall. Neither the kids nor their parents see it until they hit it. Of course the parents have been in denial for years, bullying teachers, possibly getting them fired or at least a warning in their records. Same teachers they come looking for when their darling lands with the police.

Yes, I've some empathy, though shallow. Truth is if the kid is of avg intelligence, the parents ignoring years of warning regarding behavior have the responsibility. I feel for the kid, but they were warned that their parents were doing them no favors.

[avatar4321]

Which is why we need to keep working at instilling personal responsibility in people. Starting with ourselves.

[aboutime]

Which is why we need to keep working at instilling personal responsibility in people. Starting with ourselves.


avatar. I do, honestly wonder why GABBY is so determined NOT to take her own advice.

[Arbo]

Want to find out why so many kids turn out bad? Become a secondary school counselor or administrator.
A couple of years ago, we had problems with a girl who constantly causing trouble. Her mom (a single parent) always thought we were mistaken, or that we hated her. Girl finally did something that got her sent to juvenile detention.
Mom lawyered up and got her kid released on probation. During which time she participated in an armed robbery that got her sent to prison. She was 17 and sentenced as an adult. Second day in prison, she mouthed off to someone and got beaten up. Mom didn't know until she went for a visit a few weeks later.
We know this because mom came up and told us. She blamed it on the schools for sending her kid to juvenile detention, which "made her a criminal."

If you discipline your kids appropriately, God bless you. Not enough parents do.

Most parents today have no idea what being a parent is about. Pure and simple. I heard stories from my BIL that is a high school teacher, it's simply crazy. Parents call and bitch him out when their kids do bad on tests… I think he, along with a hell of a lot of other teachers, are about to jump ship… what how bad things get when all the good teachers bail due to moronic parents that should have been sterilized at 18.

[Abbey Marie]

Kids need to know there is a living God, and He wants us to be humble and peace-making and pure of heart, and meek and merciful. And boundaries from a very young age, and parents who set the example.

[Arbo]

Last thing they need is brainwashing about mythology. One can have a fine and firm grasp of morality and personal responsibility without that crap.

[SassyLady]

Last thing they need is brainwashing about mythology. One can have a fine and firm grasp of morality and personal responsibility without that crap.

I believe the verdict is out on this one. Do a study to find out how many juvenile delinquents don't have "mythology" in their lives.

[glockmail]

Want to find out why so many kids turn out bad? Become a secondary school counselor or administrator.
A couple of years ago, we had problems with a girl who constantly causing trouble. Her mom (a single parent) always thought we were mistaken, or that we hated her. Girl finally did something that got her sent to juvenile detention.
Mom lawyered up and got her kid released on probation. During which time she participated in an armed robbery that got her sent to prison. She was 17 and sentenced as an adult. Second day in prison, she mouthed off to someone and got beaten up. Mom didn't know until she went for a visit a few weeks later.
We know this because mom came up and told us. She blamed it on the schools for sending her kid to juvenile detention, which "made her a criminal."

If you discipline your kids appropriately, God bless you. Not enough parents do.
The mother trusted GovCo to do what the Democrats had promised, to raise her child. As a GovCo employee and a supporter of the Democrat Party, why did you screw this up so badly?

[Arbo]

I believe the verdict is out on this one. Do a study to find out how many juvenile delinquents don't have "mythology" in their lives.

When I was a teen I was in a church 'youth group', the kids there were some of the most delinquent kids (booze, drugs, petty crime, sex) that I knew.

[glockmail]

That clinches it then, all church groups suck.

[tailfins]

A typically moronic answer as expected. No, not all are full of delinquents, but nor are all those 'without religion' bad. But clearly 'having religion' does not mean one will be 'good'.

You are correct (except for the put-down) , but that doesn't mean don't even try. A faithless person is missing a dimension, though.

[Arbo]

I'm sure 'faithful' people like to believe those without faith are 'missing something'.

[Abbey Marie]

When I was a teen I was in a church 'youth group', the kids there were some of the most delinquent kids (booze, drugs, petty crime, sex) that I knew.

Anecdotal and unprovable.
Here's the opposite version: "Our church youth group had some of the most God- and neighbor- loving, moral and well behaved kids that I knew."

Whenever we get a member whose favorite thing is to put down Christianity, I suspect they had a bad religious experience and want to take it out on everyone else.

But I am sorry you went to such a lacking church.

[Arbo]

Anecdotal and unprovable.

I know you'd like to believe that, but it is not the case. I lived it.


Here's the opposite version: "Our church youth group had some of the most God- and neighbor- loving, moral and well behaved kids that I knew.

No doubt some groups had that. Just as likely there are groups of non 'in religion' kids that are the same.


Whenever we get a member whose favorite thing is to put down Christianity, I suspect they had a bad religious experience and want to take it out on everyone else.

But I am sorry you went to such a lacking church.

Your nonsense fails. I understand that anyone suggesting that religion isn't 'the answer' to the worlds problems urks those that believe such tripe... but pointing out that reality is not attacking or putting down religion. It is simply stating the reality that one does not need religion to have values or to be 'good'. Why those that are religious take offense to that reality is bizarre, and it shows a certain narrowmindedness.

[aboutime]

Anecdotal and unprovable.
Here's the opposite version: "Our church youth group had some of the most God- and neighbor- loving, moral and well behaved kids that I knew."

Whenever we get a member whose favorite thing is to put down Christianity, I suspect they had a bad religious experience and want to take it out on everyone else.

But I am sorry you went to such a lacking church.


Abbey. Seems to me, that Arbo was just exercising his wishes (back then) that everyone else in that Church Youth group was like him. They all recognized him as needing to always be the center of attention. And when they didn't give him that attention. He labeled them, like they labeled him.
Not a difficult circumstance, even for someone with no Psychiatric training.

[avatar4321]

Last thing they need is brainwashing about mythology. One can have a fine and firm grasp of morality and personal responsibility without that crap.

I find that being aware that we will be held accountable for our actions in the morning of the resurrection will have a greater tendency to induce us to be responsible than pretending that there are no consequences.

[Arbo]

I find that being aware that we will be held accountable for our actions in the morning of the resurrection will have a greater tendency to induce us to be responsible than pretending that there are no consequences.

I agree that controlling the people is part of the reason for religion, as we outgrew needing explanations for thunder and lightning, those in power still needed some method to scare the people into behaving as they wanted them to. Amazingly though, people can be brought up by parents that actually parent, and learn to be good and productive people within having a fear of 'judgement' held over their heads.

[avatar4321]

I agree that controlling the people is part of the reason for religion, as we outgrew needing explanations for thunder and lightning, those in power still needed some method to scare the people into behaving as they wanted them to. Amazingly though, people can be brought up by parents that actually parent, and learn to be good and productive people within having a fear of 'judgement' held over their heads.

Ironically, the only one being controlled is you

[Arbo]

Ironically, the only one being controlled is you

Yeah sure, that's the ticket.

More rage from the religious … so hard core islamist like. :laugh2:

[Arbo]

Kids need to know there is a living God, and He wants us to be humble and peace-making and pure of heart, and meek and merciful. And boundaries from a very young age, and parents who set the example.

No, not all are full of delinquents, but nor are all those 'without religion' bad. But clearly 'having religion' does not mean one will be 'good'.

[Missileman]

I find that being aware that we will be held accountable for our actions in the morning of the resurrection will have a greater tendency to induce us to be responsible than pretending that there are no consequences.

Really? The US is 80-90% Christian. Are you suggesting that 10-20% of the population is responsible for more than its share of irresponsibility, immoral acts, crime, and anti-social behavior? I think you can make an argument that the philosophy that says you can commit the most horrendous of crimes, later repent and be totally forgiven for your trespasses with NO CONSEQUENCES could be an inducement.

[fj1200]

Really? The US is 80-90% Christian. Are you suggesting that 10-20% of the population is responsible for more than its share of irresponsibility, immoral acts, crime, and anti-social behavior? I think you can make an argument that the philosophy that says you can commit the most horrendous of crimes, later repent and be totally forgiven for your trespasses with NO CONSEQUENCES could be an inducement.

I think you're overstating both the 80-90%, at least for practicing Christians, and also the "no consequences" claim, forgiveness from God does not offer absolution from your fellow man. But I'm with you that good and bad cross the whole spectrum.

[Arbo]

I think you're overstating both the 80-90%, at least for practicing Christians, and also the "no consequences" claim, forgiveness from God does not offer absolution from your fellow man. But I'm with you that good and bad cross the whole spectrum.

It doesn't mean that the 'faithful' do not use that they can be 'absolved' in gods eyes to excuse a lot of bad behavior.

[fj1200]

It doesn't mean that the 'faithful' do not use that they can be 'absolved' in gods eyes to excuse a lot of bad behavior.

Anyone is capable of excusing a lot of behavior without involving God. Bad people are just bad people.

[Arbo]

Anyone is capable of excusing a lot of behavior without involving God. Bad people are just bad people.

Any way you excuse bad behavior away, it is only self delusion. Nothing makes it go away or excuses it.

[Missileman]

I think you're overstating both the 80-90%, at least for practicing Christians, and also the "no consequences" claim, forgiveness from God does not offer absolution from your fellow man. But I'm with you that good and bad cross the whole spectrum.

As the "fellow man" doesn't hold the keys to the theoretical reward of heaven, I'll stick to my no consequences stance. :beer:

Over 70% apparently and as high as 86% in 1990...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States

Either way, the vast majority.

[fj1200]

Any way you excuse bad behavior away, it is only self delusion. Nothing makes it go away or excuses it.

Um, exactly... I think. Earthly anyway.


As the "fellow man" doesn't hold the keys to the theoretical reward of heaven, I'll stick to my no consequences stance. :beer:

Over 70% apparently and as high as 86% in 1990...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States

Either way, the vast majority.

Um, not exactly... I think. There are plenty of earthly consequences.

And I wasn't really questioning your stats just who exactly is a practicing Christian. And even practicing is not a guarantee of being a good person.

[SassyLady]

When I was a teen I was in a church 'youth group', the kids there were some of the most delinquent kids (booze, drugs, petty crime, sex) that I knew.

So, the only thing you've verified is that some kids are delinquent and some are not. I would venture that there are more delinquent kids without a "myth" in their life than those who were part of a youth group sponsored by their church.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So, the only you've verified is that some kids are delinquent and some are not. I would venture that there are more delinquent kids without a "myth" in their life than those who were part of a youth group sponsored by their church. You could bet a year's wages on it and win every time. However the type of people putting forth such a weak excuse aren't going to accept such truth from you. Not when they can just make up crap that supposedly supports their position. At another forum I am battling two such people that never run out of supposedly true life experiences that refute my every moral principle . Both have admitted being in their mid to late twenties and by the supposed true stories they relate they each have lived ten times more than I have with my being just 2 months shy of 60 years of age now. Trust me I haven't lead an idle boring life. And their "ten times" isn't an exaggeration on my part. Anybody that is in mid twenties and says they have had more fights than I have are either lying or else the most active prize fighter in history. And that just one of the claims. Dime a dozen type of people I say. :laugh:--Tyr

[Arbo]

So, the only thing you've verified is that some kids are delinquent and some are not. I would venture that there are more delinquent kids without a "myth" in their life than those who were part of a youth group sponsored by their church.

Wow, you certainly misunderstood the english language on that one. It wasn't 'some of the kids were' it was 'the kids were some of the worst'. You know the difference, right?


You could bet a year's wages on it and win every time.

When you double down on a misreading of basic english, it doesn't make you look very good.

[jimnyc]

Wow, you certainly misunderstood the english language on that one. It wasn't 'some of the kids were' it was 'the kids were some of the worst'. You know the difference, right?



When you double down on a misreading of basic english, it doesn't make you look very good.

When you make fun of someone else writing in English, it would help if you do so yourself, or you may look a tad silly. Maybe we can the insults and move on to debating/discussing instead?

[Abbey Marie]

; Anecdotal and unprovable.

I know you'd like to believe that, but it is not the case. I lived it.
...



No, actually I do believe you. I made the point to illustrate that your protestations on here that what others say is unprovable, works perfectly both ways.

[Abbey Marie]

As the "fellow man" doesn't hold the keys to the theoretical reward of heaven, I'll stick to my no consequences stance. :beer:

Over 70% apparently and as high as 86% in 1990...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_United_States

Either way, the vast majority.


Unfortunately, not all professed Christians follow the Bible. And all sin.

[Missileman]

Unfortunately, not all professed Christians follow the Bible. And all sin.

Are you agreeing with me then that belief in a higher power doesn't lead to good behavior any more than non-belief leads to bad?

[jimnyc]

Are you agreeing with me then that belief in a higher power doesn't lead to good behavior any more than non-belief leads to bad?

I don't think simply believing in a higher power would lead to good behavior. But if one follows the teachings of the Bible and truly leads a Christian way of life, then I would consider that the overwhelming majority who do just that will have good behavior. As for those with non-belief, I don't think simply not believing would make anyone have bad behavior. But certainly having a guide of sorts, one of which teaches people to love and respect, would give someone more of an opportunity to lead with good behavior, as opposed to someone who is not being taught such. *This doesn't mean that if someone isn't taught via the Bible that they would have bad behavior.

[aboutime]

As a Christian. I know. ALL human beings are sinners.

As for discussing my beliefs, or faith. I have no reason, nor responsibility to explain, or make excuses for what I believe, nor do I need to create any excuses for my faith.

We should all MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS. PERIOD.

[Arbo]

When you make fun of someone else writing in English, it would help if you do so yourself, or you may look a tad silly. Maybe we can the insults and move on to debating/discussing instead?

Oh my, what a shocker! Or perhaps not so much.

I didn't make fun of anyone's english, I pointed out that what she read was not what was written.

I'm thinking she is a smart girl and can handle this herself.

[Arbo]

As for discussing my beliefs, or faith. I have no reason, nor responsibility to explain, or make excuses for what I believe, nor do I need to create any excuses for my faith.

We should all MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS. PERIOD.

Unless it's 'muslim' business, eh? :poke:

[jimnyc]

Oh my, what a shocker! Or perhaps not so much.

I didn't make fun of anyone's english, I pointed out that what she read was not what was written.

I'm thinking she is a smart girl and can handle this herself.

I don't care if she can handle it or not. You weren't simply pointing something out to her, you were being an ass.

[Arbo]

I don't care if she can handle it or not. You weren't simply pointing something out to her, you were being an ass.

Yeah sure, if I simply type "hello!" I am being an ass, but the actual asses don't get lectures. Like usual, nothing new….

[jimnyc]

Yeah sure, if I simply type "hello!" I am being an ass, but the actual asses don't get lectures. Like usual, nothing new….

You want to play this stupid little game in every other thread. Start your bullshit and then point out others as problematic. Just like you always whining and reporting others posts, when those people are usually responding to YOUR trolling. This is just another thread you WON'T be ruining any further.

[avatar4321]

Really? The US is 80-90% Christian. Are you suggesting that 10-20% of the population is responsible for more than its share of irresponsibility, immoral acts, crime, and anti-social behavior? I think you can make an argument that the philosophy that says you can commit the most horrendous of crimes, later repent and be totally forgiven for your trespasses with NO CONSEQUENCES could be an inducement.

Nominally Christian unfortunately. Sadly most Christians are completely ignorant of the scriptures. And the rest of us are still learning them.

And no, i wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. What I was saying is that being aware that you are going to be accountable for your actions on the day of judgment would be an inducement to be aware of what you are doing and acting more responsibly.

And you are completely wrong if you think you can sin without consequence. Repentence doesn't take away the consequences. Quite the opposite. Repentence requires facing the consequences with faith in God. It requires 1) a confession 2) a restituation where possible and 3) ending the sin. The Lord shows us mercy by giving us the power to overcome our sins and to be forgiven when we do.

[avatar4321]

Any way you excuse bad behavior away, it is only self delusion. Nothing makes it go away or excuses it.

Then why continue acting badly? Why continue to be rude to people if there is no excuse?

[avatar4321]

Are you agreeing with me then that belief in a higher power doesn't lead to good behavior any more than non-belief leads to bad?

Even the devils believe. Their belief will not save them. Quite the opposite.

That is why we are told to have faith. Faith is much more than belief. Faith is a belief that leads a person to action. Faith in Christ is a total reliance on Him. You trust His word. You believe it. Those who trust His word do His word. They have enough confidence in it that they would sacrifice to follow it.

[avatar4321]

As a Christian. I know. ALL human beings are sinners.

As for discussing my beliefs, or faith. I have no reason, nor responsibility to explain, or make excuses for what I believe, nor do I need to create any excuses for my faith.

We should all MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS. PERIOD.

I am mixed about that. I dont think that we can mind our own business. In fact, as a Christian I think we have an obligation to share the world. To take care of the widow and the fatherless. And that failure to do that will make us accountable to God.

But I also think we do have to mind our business. Because if we neglect our business we end up sinning.

[Jeff]

Then why continue acting badly? Why continue to be rude to people if there is no excuse?


I have been watching this in a few threads and honestly I think Arbo feels as though he is against all that post here so he feels he must be defensive ( nasty ) at all times ( no I don't agree with that ) but honestly I would love to see Arbo debate folks without getting nasty, I think him like others that get a bad wrap have a lot to offer. Arbo just give plan ol debating a try and if someone attacks you personally you can A ignore it or B fight and get no where , seriously Arbo arguing with the likes of me I understand but some of the folks I have seen you argue with are very educated and just plain nice people, let your defense down a tad and I think you will enjoy the board that much more !

[Missileman]

Nominally Christian unfortunately. Sadly most Christians are completely ignorant of the scriptures. And the rest of us are still learning them.

And no, i wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. What I was saying is that being aware that you are going to be accountable for your actions on the day of judgment would be an inducement to be aware of what you are doing and acting more responsibly.

And you are completely wrong if you think you can sin without consequence. Repentence doesn't take away the consequences. Quite the opposite. Repentence requires facing the consequences with faith in God. It requires 1) a confession 2) a restituation where possible and 3) ending the sin. The Lord shows us mercy by giving us the power to overcome our sins and to be forgiven when we do.

In the end, you do the crime AND get the cookie if you repent. If you still get into heaven, what consequence? Earthly consequences are faced by both believer and non-believer and aren't what I was referring to.

[aboutime]

I am mixed about that. I dont think that we can mind our own business. In fact, as a Christian I think we have an obligation to share the world. To take care of the widow and the fatherless. And that failure to do that will make us accountable to God.

But I also think we do have to mind our business. Because if we neglect our business we end up sinning.

avatar. With all due respect. You just confused everything above with what sounds like double-talk.

You don't think we can mind our own business...then say "I think we do".

Are you a speech writer for Obama?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

avatar. With all due respect. You just confused everything above with what sounds like double-talk.

You don't think we can mind our own business...then say "I think we do".

Are you a speech writer for Obama? I think there is a misunderstanding on that my friend. The TRUTH being hidden by the rest of the world must be freely and unabashedly presented by Christians. Its how the gift of Salvation is to be shared with the world. So Christians are charged to spread that word in order to give others a chance at that Salvation. I think that was what Avatar intended. If so I fully agree with it myself. Just sayin'. -Tyr

[aboutime]

I think there is a misunderstanding on that my friend. The TRUTH being hidden by the rest of the world must be freely and unabashedly presented by Christians. Its how the gift of Salvation is to be shared with the world. So Christians are charged to spread that word in order to give others a chance at that Salvation. I think that was what Avatar intended. If so I fully agree with it myself. Just sayin'. -Tyr


Tyr. All of this is more reason why...I dislike discussing MY faith, or Religious beliefs HERE.

I'll leave it at that.

[Voted4Reagan]

Want to find out why so many kids turn out bad? Become a secondary school counselor or administrator.
A couple of years ago, we had problems with a girl who constantly causing trouble. Her mom (a single parent) always thought we were mistaken, or that we hated her. Girl finally did something that got her sent to juvenile detention.
Mom lawyered up and got her kid released on probation. During which time she participated in an armed robbery that got her sent to prison. She was 17 and sentenced as an adult. Second day in prison, she mouthed off to someone and got beaten up. Mom didn't know until she went for a visit a few weeks later.
We know this because mom came up and told us. She blamed it on the schools for sending her kid to juvenile detention, which "made her a criminal."

If you discipline your kids appropriately, God bless you. Not enough parents do.


Please Gabby... you dont believe a word of that. By endorsing an entirely Liberal position you encourage DEPENDENCY on Government and not personal independence and responsibility.

Dont even go there..

[Abbey Marie]

avatar. With all due respect. You just confused everything above with what sounds like double-talk.

You don't think we can mind our own business...then say "I think we do".

Are you a speech writer for Obama?


Aboutime, I think Avi is saying that others' salvation IS our business, if we follow Christ's teachings, and he is also saying that we should mind (as in "take care of") our own lives and sins and actions as well.

[DragonStryk72]

I know you'd like to believe that, but it is not the case. I lived it.



No doubt some groups had that. Just as likely there are groups of non 'in religion' kids that are the same.



Your nonsense fails. I understand that anyone suggesting that religion isn't 'the answer' to the worlds problems urks those that believe such tripe... but pointing out that reality is not attacking or putting down religion. It is simply stating the reality that one does not need religion to have values or to be 'good'. Why those that are religious take offense to that reality is bizarre, and it shows a certain narrowmindedness.

um, Arbo, I don't usually flatly disagree with you, but here, you're the asshole. Go back and look at your response to Abbey. You may disagree with her, that's your right, but that's not what you did.

What you did was see a message that offended no one, took offense, and slapped her down for not believing as you do. That is just as fanatical as the "Christians" you blame from your youth group. You used that one, infinitesimally sub-set from your youth, and painted us all, myself included, by their actions. You flat called everything we believed in "mythology" and "brainwashing". If you did this with any race, you'd be a racist, so why is it morally right to do so when it concerns a belief you do not follow?

You could have respectfully disagreed, and I would be backing your opinion on the matter, but again, that's not what you did, and thus, you made your point indefensible. And yes, I've gone at others about beliefs I do not hold, but you know what? Go look at those disagreements, and see if I went anywhere disrespectful or rude.

With that out of the way, I don't think that religion is necessarily the answer. I myself went to Catholic school, and it wasn't about the religious element, because certainly we had kids screwing off. The difference is that our teachers and administration were not afraid of parents, and so when parents would try to blame them, they would fire right back that it is on the parents to teach their children how to act like civilized adults. There were no out of school suspensions, it was all in-school, meaning that you would come to school as usual, sit in a barren white room with anyone else who was sharing your fate, and you'd spend your time doing your classwork in silence, and nothing else. No cell phones, laptops, clubs or anything. If you had to use the bathroom, you were escorted to and from by one of the maintenance folks, and there was a teacher at the front at all times.

If you got three in a year, or four in two years, you were expelled. As they put it, "It is not up to us to teach your child right from wrong, because that is the job of you, their parents. We will teach them nothing of the necessity for respectful behavior in a year that you have failed to teach them in 12. We expect them to behave, not teach them to behave."

Interestingly, expulsions and dropouts were very rare, and parents came into line save for a rare few, and they were generally the parents of kids who did get expelled or dropped out.