Islamic Forced marriages in the west

[revelarts]

Deserves it's own thread.

This is from an episode of Four Corners (aired 2nd Febuary 2012 - http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/storie... (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/03/29/3466537.htm)) that sheds some light on the current state of forced marriage - particularly in Islamic families - in Australia.

Jafar and the other Islamic guy who used to come alway say that it's not the real Islam , It's Just the culture and bad forms of Islam.

But here's the thing. that the below video makes clear.
EVEN THOUGH Islamic people move to western areas they often bring the bad culture/versions/ of Islam with them.
and the place in the west where they live That has had CENTURIES of CHRISTIANITY to edit and shape culture and the treatment of women is rising up to protect the Islamic women. Or giving spcae for some some Islamic people to help others.

IMO it's just another clear example of how Christianity is a Blessing to the whole word. no matter what your faith or lack of it.
the CHRISTIAN concept of the equality of humanity, including women, that has been fostered in the west may have gone to far outside certain bounders but it's a far site better than the BS of forcing lil girls to marry there cousin or strangers "or else".

Even men are forced to marry!

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/MP-SYo4U4bE?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


the Shakti org
is setting up branches around to the world to deal with the forced marriage issue and other womens issues. started in New Zealand a branches in the U.K.

http://shakti-international.org/category/news-events-nz/
<header class="entry-header">Welcome to Shakti New Zealand
</header> Shakti is a national not-for-profit community organisation specialised in the area of women’s development, empowerment and domestic/ family violence intervention, prevention and awareness. We are a specialist provider of culturally competent support services for women, children and families of Asian, African and Middle Eastern origin. Over the years, the support group has grown from the confines of one tiny room to a national umbrella organisation with 7 member organisations (http://shakti-international.org/shakti-nz/services-nz/) in Central, West and South Auckland, Central North Island and South Island.

This website has information on how we can help if you or someone you know is in a situation of domestic violence (http://shakti-international.org/shakti-nz/help-nz/). We encourage you to reach out to us if you are living a life of fear and violence or if you are unsure that you are affected by domestic violence.
Click here (http://shakti-international.org/about-us-nz/) to learn about our Mission, Vision, Values and our Funders.

[jafar00]

Forced Marriage is not Islamic. No amount of media portrayal of the plight of these poor Pakistani girls will change that.

In the story above, it comes from Pakistani tribal culture.

I'm not going into detail again on this. I'll just let a link speak for me this time.


<big><big>Can a woman be forced into marriage in Islam?</big></big>
Absolutely not! Let us look at what Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him said regarding this issue:
Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as having said: "A woman without a husband (or divorced or a widow) must not be married until she is consulted, and a virgin must not be married until her permission is sought. They asked the Prophet of Allah (may peace be upon him): How her (virgin's) consent can be solicited? He (the Holy Prophet) said: That she keeps silence. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 008, Number 3303)"
Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran: "O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good. (The Noble Quran, 4:19)"
The following Saying is an explanation to Noble Verse 4:19:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "About the Qur'anic verse: 'It is not lawful for you forcibly to inherit the woman (of your deceased kinsmen), nor (that) ye should put constraint upon them.' When a man died, his relatives had more right to his wife then her own guardian. If any one of them wanted to marry her, he did so; or they married her (to some other person), and if they did not want to marry her, they did so. So this verse was revealed about the matter. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2084)" So according to Noble Verse 4:19, a woman can not be forced into marriage by any mean.
Narrated AbuHurayrah: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: An orphan virgin girl should be consulted about herself; if she says nothing that indicates her permission, but if she refuses, the authority of the guardian cannot be exercised against her will. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2088)"
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Consult women about (the marriage of) their daughters. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2090)"
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2091)"
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A guardian has no concern with a woman previously married and has no husband, and an orphan girl (i.e. virgin) must be consulted, her silence being her acceptance. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2095)"
The above Noble Verse 4:19 and the Sayings of our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him clearly explain that according to Islam, whether the woman is virgin or not, her permission is a MUST. Her father or older brother can not force her into marriage as the Pagan Arabs and the Jews and Christians before Islam in the Middle East used to do; see Deuteronomy 25:5 in the Bible to see how women are forced into marriage.

<big><big>Can the woman divorce herself from a forced marriage upon her?</big></big>
As we've seen above, it is clearly forbidden in Islam to force women into marriage. But in case this ever should happen or have happened already to any woman, then Islam allows for her to divorce herself from the man she was forced to marry. Let us read the following:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: "A virgin came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) allowed her to exercise her choice. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Book 11, Number 2091)"
The choice that our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him gave to the woman is she can either remain married to the man, or divorce herself from him.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/cant_force_marriage.htm

[revelarts]

That all sounds great and in the program linked above there is a Muslim teacher --@7:30-- that agree with you and helped a few of the young women. but there was Another Islamic leader IN AUSTRALIA -@35:00-- that a young lady went to and told him frankly that she had not consented , HE CLAIMS he doesn't remember that conversation.

And it's not just Pakistanis, the program mentions India and Afghanistan as well.

And All due respect Jafar but did the 9 year old girl consent to marry Mohamed?
or did she just remain quiet?

[revelarts]

But here's the thing that i'm getting from you and the world reports. that Islam is very fractured. That IMAMS teach very different things, some based on Islam as you read it and others are reading through their cultures etc. and teach it as true ISLAM.

you say
terrorism- it's not Islam it's just Wahabi's,
forced marriage- its not Australian Islam it's just Pakistanis living in Australia ,
Stoning women- it's not real Islam just cultural .. but it's where Islam is the law Iran, Mauritania, Nigeria (in one-third of the country's states the ISLAMIC states ), Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. And in Indonesia and Malaysia it's illegal but some Muslim areas do it anyway.

After a while I think you and other Muslim like your self need to fiercely contend with these other people who call them selves Muslims and straiten them out. I appreciate the correction on the details, i don't want to make sweeping accusations either way but there's obviously a large portion of people that DO believe that Islam is OK with or actually TEACHES all of the above.

as i said, correcting me is fine but seem to me your efforts would be better served by correcting those like the IMAM @ the 35:00 minute mark who looses his hearing and memory when young girls tell him they DON"T want to get married. And doesn't think that forced marriage should be against the law.


http://www.wluml.org/

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/KNVKzU_h94c?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
(http://www.wluml.org/)

[jafar00]

And it's not just Pakistanis, the program mentions India and Afghanistan as well.

Forced marriages are common in that part of the world unfortunately.


And All due respect Jafar but did the 9 year old girl consent to marry Mohamed?
or did she just remain quiet?

Yes, she did consent. Her family was fully supportive of the union too. Besides, apart from her marriage being to a Prophet, there was nothing out of the ordinary in it.

[Voted4Reagan]

Forced marriages are common in that part of the world unfortunately.



Yes, she did consent. Her family was fully supportive of the union too. Besides, apart from her marriage being to a Prophet, there was nothing out of the ordinary in it.

Warren Jeffs was a "PROPHET" as well... he's doing LIFE + 20yrs for his relationships with underage girls.

[revelarts]

Just how does a 9 year old girl "consent" to marriage?
I think you've mentioned you have children, does your 9 year old consenting to marry seem right to you?

[jafar00]

Just how does a 9 year old girl "consent" to marriage?
I think you've mentioned you have children, does your 9 year old consenting to marry seem right to you?

You're trying to compare today's standards and accepted cultural practises with those of 13 centuries ago. It was acceptable then, but it would not be today.

[Abbey Marie]

Jafar, honest question here: If Islam does not condone forced marriages, are the Muslims who engage in it receiving the Islamic version of excommunication? If not, then they might as well just admit to condoning it.

[tailfins]

Jafar, honest question here: If Islam does not condone forced marriages, are the Muslims who engage in it receiving the Islamic version of excommunication? If not, then they might as well just admit to condoning it.

Excellent point. Excommunication sounds Catholic. Of course they could order them shunned.

[jafar00]

Jafar, honest question here: If Islam does not condone forced marriages, are the Muslims who engage in it receiving the Islamic version of excommunication? If not, then they might as well just admit to condoning it.

Forced "marriages" can be annulled under Shariah Law since it is a condition of marriage that consent be obtained from both parties.

Forced marriage is a sin but it is not a serious act of disbelief which would make one leave the fold.

[Abbey Marie]

Forced "marriages" can be annulled under Shariah Law since it is a condition of marriage that consent be obtained from both parties.

Forced marriage is a sin but it is not a serious act of disbelief which would make one leave the fold.

If it is not a serious act of disbelief, then it is condoned. You cannot have it both ways.

And I can imagine that the girl that wants it annulled has to get the consent of one or more men who are the every ones who forced her into it in the first place. Not happening. On both counts your answer seems at best intellectually dishonest.

[Arbo]

the CHRISTIAN concept of the equality of humanity, including women,

I'm surprised nobody caught this little funny. Must be one of those rewritings of history.

[jafar00]

If it is not a serious act of disbelief, then it is condoned. You cannot have it both ways.

How do you work that out? If consent is not obtained from both bride and groom, the marriage is invalid and can be immediately annulled.


And I can imagine that the girl that wants it annulled has to get the consent of one or more men who are the every ones who forced her into it in the first place. Not happening. On both counts your answer seems at best intellectually dishonest.

Since the marriage was not valid in the first place, she can easily have it annulled.

Anyway, it's harder to get a divorce in Western Law. It's also more expensive.

I divorced my previous wife, by mutual consent as per Islamic Law by simply telling her "talaq" 3 times. She agreed and all that was left was the signing of a piece of paper. However we were also married under French Law for the civil union. That is only just about to be completed taking four years and costing me almost 5000 Euros!

[jimnyc]

Forced "marriages" can be annulled under Shariah Law since it is a condition of marriage that consent be obtained from both parties.

Forced marriage is a sin but it is not a serious act of disbelief which would make one leave the fold.

What would make it a "serious" act of disbelief?

Make fun of ANY prophet. Claim someone will succeed the Prophet. Disparaging remarks about angels. Insulting fiqh or fatwas. Making mockery of the hereafter. Let's skip to the point, the rest here:

http://www.myreligionislam.com/detail.asp?aid=6020

There seems to be an awful lot of things that can be simply 'verbal' statements. They can get one tossed from the fold. But if someone violated a child and forced them into marriage - they're OK to stay?

[jafar00]

What would make it a "serious" act of disbelief?

Make fun of ANY prophet. Claim someone will succeed the Prophet. Disparaging remarks about angels. Insulting fiqh or fatwas. Making mockery of the hereafter. Let's skip to the point, the rest here:

http://www.myreligionislam.com/detail.asp?aid=6020

There seems to be an awful lot of things that can be simply 'verbal' statements. They can get one tossed from the fold. But if someone violated a child and forced them into marriage - they're OK to stay?

You can sin but still be Muslim. Isn't it the same for Christians?

Now, if I did something that was an act of worship or devotion to anyone except directly to God, that would make me a disbeliever.

[jimnyc]

You can sin but still be Muslim. Isn't it the same for Christians?

Now, if I did something that was an act of worship or devotion to anyone except directly to God, that would make me a disbeliever.

My father simply divorced, all legal and of age. Cannot get married under the church ever again. There are other fairly mild reasons where one can be tossed. You can still sin and be a Christian, but you would be tossed out of any legit church if they found out you broke the law and forced a child to marry you somehow. The church and it's members are not going to embrace criminals and child abusers.

[revelarts]

If it is not a serious act of disbelief, then it is condoned. You cannot have it both ways.
And I can imagine that the girl that wants it annulled has to get the consent of one or more men who are the every ones who forced her into it in the first place. Not happening. On both counts your answer seems at best intellectually dishonest.

You can sin but still be Muslim. Isn't it the same for Christians?
Now, if I did something that was an act of worship or devotion to anyone except directly to God, that would make me a disbeliever.

Abbey I think you may be putting Islam in a place where the RC church doesn't go either.
how many Catholics abort/murder? but aren't cast out or excommunicated from the Church.
My main gripe is that Islam .. as Jafar defines it... has so little positive effect on the "cultures" it has the largest foothold in.
Muslims claim that Christianity has weaken influence the west. That's true. but "true Islam" doesn't seem to have much effect in the Mideast and in the Pacific isles.. Crazy Islam seems controls and influence the culture in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

Also Jafar I did notice you skipped the stoning laws in Islamic countries. Is that part of true Islam or is that cultural as well?


My father simply divorced, all legal and of age. Cannot get married under the church ever again. There are other fairly mild reasons where one can be tossed. You can still sin and be a Christian, but you would be tossed out of any legit church if they found out you broke the law and forced a child to marry you somehow. The church and it's members are not going to embrace criminals and child abusers.

do you really want to go there Jim?

[jimnyc]

do you really want to go there Jim?

Of course there are exceptions. I'm not saying there aren't bad churches, priests & parishioners. But a good Church and it's parishioners aren't going to embrace criminals and especially criminals when it comes to something sacred as marriage, or 'child abuse'.

In Islam, all you have to do is good on the prophet for one moment and you can get shunned, perhaps charged with blasphemy & perhaps killed if found guilty. BUT, stay accepted if you force a 9 year old into marriage and abuse her, of course no criminal charges. There are TONS of things to get you tossed or killed in SO many Islamic places, for mild actions or simply speaking on things. But then certain killing is allowed and even called for. SO many abuses are allowed. Hell, while they are tossing one person out for blasphemy, at the same time someone is preaching about how to keep the women in line, while yet another is preaching about how to kill the infidels, while yet another is teaching about how the Jews are evil and their mortal enemies.

Yes, I'm more than fully aware that there are and have been issues and abuses within Christianity and the RC church. But in modern times, the abuses/killings from within the church, and those who call themselves Christians, are SO much less than within Islam and Muslims. And we see TONS of people forever speaking out about the abuses within the church. Speak out about Islam or perceived abuses in some countries and you won't live to see sundown, as you'll be buried by then.

[jimnyc]

Also Jafar I did notice you skipped the stoning laws in Islamic countries. Is that part of true Islam or is that cultural as well?

Stoning, blasphemy, apostasy and many other barbaric and ancient abuses. It still happens in many places and I can post article after article to be denied. Hadiths and other writings will be denied. But I defy others to post for me the many articles and areas that are screaming for this type of stuff to cease. Some consider this punishment as per 'Shariah Law' in some areas. Others will deny it's Shariah. But no one can deny that this stuff happens all over and very little, if anything, is being done to stop it.

Even if cultural, then I ask - WHY isn't anyone else trying to stop it? Imagine some podunk area of Texas was still hanging people for petty theft? Would anyone else try and put a stop to it? Suppose the UK started stoning people for various offenses. How would that go over around the world when the first video is released of a Brit being stoned? What about when some Norwegians are outed for killing a family of 3 who dared to leave the religion of the area? What if the Russians started killing everyone and anyone who talked smack about their leader/religious leader?

This won't fly ANYWHERE except for within the Islamic world, where it's had a blind eye turned for SO long, that no on even bothers to make changes anymore.

[jafar00]

My main gripe is that Islam .. as Jafar defines it... has so little positive effect on the "cultures" it has the largest foothold in.
Muslims claim that Christianity has weaken influence the west. That's true. but "true Islam" doesn't seem to have much effect in the Mideast and in the Pacific isles.. Crazy Islam seems controls and influence the culture in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

"Crazy Islam" as you describe it is Wahhabism. It is not Islam.


Also Jafar I did notice you skipped the stoning laws in Islamic countries. Is that part of true Islam or is that cultural as well?



do you really want to go there Jim?[/QUOTE]


Of course there are exceptions. I'm not saying there aren't bad churches, priests & parishioners. But a good Church and it's parishioners aren't going to embrace criminals and especially criminals when it comes to something sacred as marriage, or 'child abuse'.

In Islam, all you have to do is good on the prophet for one moment and you can get shunned, perhaps charged with blasphemy & perhaps killed if found guilty. BUT, stay accepted if you force a 9 year old into marriage and abuse her, of course no criminal charges. There are TONS of things to get you tossed or killed in SO many Islamic places, for mild actions or simply speaking on things. But then certain killing is allowed and even called for. SO many abuses are allowed. Hell, while they are tossing one person out for blasphemy, at the same time someone is preaching about how to keep the women in line, while yet another is preaching about how to kill the infidels, while yet another is teaching about how the Jews are evil and their mortal enemies.

Yes, I'm more than fully aware that there are and have been issues and abuses within Christianity and the RC church. But in modern times, the abuses/killings from within the church, and those who call themselves Christians, are SO much less than within Islam and Muslims. And we see TONS of people forever speaking out about the abuses within the church. Speak out about Islam or perceived abuses in some countries and you won't live to see sundown, as you'll be buried by then.


Stoning, blasphemy, apostasy and many other barbaric and ancient abuses. It still happens in many places and I can post article after article to be denied. Hadiths and other writings will be denied. But I defy others to post for me the many articles and areas that are screaming for this type of stuff to cease. Some consider this punishment as per 'Shariah Law' in some areas. Others will deny it's Shariah. But no one can deny that this stuff happens all over and very little, if anything, is being done to stop it.

Even if cultural, then I ask - WHY isn't anyone else trying to stop it? Imagine some podunk area of Texas was still hanging people for petty theft? Would anyone else try and put a stop to it? Suppose the UK started stoning people for various offenses. How would that go over around the world when the first video is released of a Brit being stoned? What about when some Norwegians are outed for killing a family of 3 who dared to leave the religion of the area? What if the Russians started killing everyone and anyone who talked smack about their leader/religious leader?

This won't fly ANYWHERE except for within the Islamic world, where it's had a blind eye turned for SO long, that no on even bothers to make changes anymore.

Usually, the "podunk" areas stoning and whatnot are run by AQ nuts who don't apply stoning laws properly in the first place. As the law states, four witnesses must have observed the act of sexual intercourse as if they had clearly seen a Kohl needle enter a Kohl bottle. This is akin to a live sex show. How likely is that? Such punishments are meant as a deterrent, not to place suffering on people as AQ and the Taliban do with their deviant ways.

[jimnyc]

Usually, the "podunk" areas stoning and whatnot are run by AQ nuts who don't apply stoning laws properly in the first place. As the law states, four witnesses must have observed the act of sexual intercourse as if they had clearly seen a Kohl needle enter a Kohl bottle. This is akin to a live sex show. How likely is that? Such punishments are meant as a deterrent, not to place suffering on people as AQ and the Taliban do with their deviant ways.

Well, it's happening ALL THE TIME, stoning, blasphemy deaths and apostasy deaths. I still say it doesn't matter if it's podunk areas or cities, true muslims or not - it's happening all the time is the issue AND definitely in more places than just AQ or Taliban held areas. I've posted it before and I can post endless articles on these examples again. The problem is, whether "true muslims" or not, is that it's happening, and NO ONE is doing anything about it. Where are the leaders in all of these countries? All thats being done is people making excuses and turning blind eyes, and that doesn't stop these people from dying.

Again - how do you think the world would act if the USA stoned someone to death? Or if someone was executed for blasphemy? Or if someone was executed for apostasy?

I don't care if it was in podunk areas or from extremists. It would be MORE than spoken about, around the entire world, it would be an uproar like you've never seen. No way the red cross and other CIVILIZED countries are going to sit back while a country like ours acted like animals. But when it happens in Islamic countries? Hell, one has to search over and over to even find out about it.

[Voted4Reagan]

You're trying to compare today's standards and accepted cultural practises with those of 13 centuries ago. It was acceptable then, but it would not be today.

Then Sharia Law is Outdated by todays standards... seeing it is at least that old as well.

Do not cherry pick Jafar.

[revelarts]

I'm surprised nobody caught this little funny. Must be one of those rewritings of history.

Do you think that it's an accident that woman rights are found and most supported in historically Christian based nations?



Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Acts 17:26 And (God) has made from one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth...


Lucretia Coffin Mott " was an American Quaker, abolitionist, a women's rights activist, and a social reformer. ...Mott was elected the first president of the American Equal Rights Association." Susan B. Anthony " grew up as a Quaker"..
A couple of people who a little something to do with the history of equal rights. If you want to talk about the history that is.

[jimnyc]

Just yesterday there was a story that came out about 2 families in Syria who were forced to convert to Islam, or die. And once converted, they would be stuck as if they left they would be apostates, and sentenced to death.

[revelarts]

Just yesterday there was a story that came out about 2 families in Syria who were forced to convert to Islam, or die. And once converted, they would be stuck as if they left they would be apostates, and sentenced to death.

terrible.


but it makes me wonder.
Jafar, if you --or a Muslim of similar belief-- were to go to Saudi Arabia or Syria would you be forced to convert to Wahhabism or would you be left alone?

[Abbey Marie]

Abbey I think you may be putting Islam in a place where the RC church doesn't go either. How many Catholics abort/murder? but aren't cast out or excommunicated from the Church.
My main gripe is that Islam .. as Jafar defines it... has so little positive effect on the "cultures" it has the largest foothold in.
Muslims claim that Christianity has weaken influence the west. That's true. but "true Islam" doesn't seem to have much effect in the Mideast and in the Pacific isles.. Crazy Islam seems controls and influence the culture in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

Also Jafar I did notice you skipped the stoning laws in Islamic countries. Is that part of true Islam or is that cultural as well?

do you really want to go there Jim?

Rev, re the bolded: I hear you, but I assume that some religious figure performs these marriages, thereby putting the Islam stamp of approval on them. I further believe that when Catholics get abortions, they do so privately and probably without the Church even knowing. Let alone being involved.

[Abbey Marie]

Well, it's happening ALL THE TIME, stoning, blasphemy deaths and apostasy deaths. I still say it doesn't matter if it's podunk areas or cities, true muslims or not - it's happening all the time is the issue AND definitely in more places than just AQ or Taliban held areas. I've posted it before and I can post endless articles on these examples again. The problem is, whether "true muslims" or not, is that it's happening, and NO ONE is doing anything about it. Where are the leaders in all of these countries? All thats being done is people making excuses and turning blind eyes, and that doesn't stop these people from dying.

Again - how do you think the world would act if the USA stoned someone to death? Or if someone was executed for blasphemy? Or if someone was executed for apostasy?

I don't care if it was in podunk areas or from extremists. It would be MORE than spoken about, around the entire world, it would be an uproar like you've never seen. No way the red cross and other CIVILIZED countries are going to sit back while a country like ours acted like animals. But when it happens in Islamic countries? Hell, one has to search over and over to even find out about it.


That's a good point, Jim. Why does the world, and Muslims particularly, have such low expectations of them(selves)?

[jafar00]

Just yesterday there was a story that came out about 2 families in Syria who were forced to convert to Islam, or die. And once converted, they would be stuck as if they left they would be apostates, and sentenced to death.

Their "conversion" was invalid. Forced conversion goes against the core of Islam. That is faith that comes naturally from the heart. Forced conversion results in Hypocrites which is worse than disbelief. These salafis are damaging the perception of Islam to outsiders and unfortunately it is only they who are splashed across the newspapers. Not the millions of Muslims who do good in the world.


terrible.
but it makes me wonder.
Jafar, if you --or a Muslim of similar belief-- were to go to Saudi Arabia or Syria would you be forced to convert to Wahhabism or would you be left alone?

If you want to get technical, I am a Sufi of the Naqshbandi Tariqa. Do you know what happens to Sufis in Wahhabi Arabia?

[Voted4Reagan]

Their "conversion" was invalid. Forced conversion goes against the core of Islam. That is faith that comes naturally from the heart. Forced conversion results in Hypocrites which is worse than disbelief. These salafis are damaging the perception of Islam to outsiders and unfortunately it is only they who are splashed across the newspapers. Not the millions of Muslims who do good in the world.



If you want to get technical, I am a Sufi of the Naqshbandi Tariqa. Do you know what happens to Sufis in Wahhabi Arabia?

I see you ignored my statement... as you frequently do...

[Gaffer]

That's a good point, Jim. Why does the world, and Muslims particularly, have such low expectations of them(selves)?

NASA has been ordered to work on that.

[revelarts]

...

If you want to get technical, I am a Sufi of the Naqshbandi Tariqa. Do you know what happens to Sufis in Wahhabi Arabia?

No, i don't.
Is it what they are doing to Christians in Syria?

[jimnyc]

Their "conversion" was invalid. Forced conversion goes against the core of Islam. That is faith that comes naturally from the heart. Forced conversion results in Hypocrites which is worse than disbelief. These salafis are damaging the perception of Islam to outsiders and unfortunately it is only they who are splashed across the newspapers. Not the millions of Muslims who do good in the world.

We've done this dance before. I'm not saying it IS Islam, or within the writings, or something preached and taught everywhere - I'm saying the same thing I've said from the beginning, that these forced marriages happen a lot, that people are killed for blasphemy, that people are killed for apostasy. And in many instances these people claim Shariah in giving out these punishments. I'm not debating with you the fact that this stuff isn't in official Islam writings and teachings. But yet it happens in Islamic countries and communities all over the place. And quite frankly, I don't see an awful lot, if anything, being done in those areas to stop the actions.

[jafar00]

Then Sharia Law is Outdated by todays standards... seeing it is at least that old as well.

Do not cherry pick Jafar.

Shariah is designed to adapt. It's a pity there is no country today following it.


No, i don't.
Is it what they are doing to Christians in Syria?

Jail and beatings usually.


We've done this dance before. I'm not saying it IS Islam, or within the writings, or something preached and taught everywhere - I'm saying the same thing I've said from the beginning, that these forced marriages happen a lot, that people are killed for blasphemy, that people are killed for apostasy. And in many instances these people claim Shariah in giving out these punishments. I'm not debating with you the fact that this stuff isn't in official Islam writings and teachings. But yet it happens in Islamic countries and communities all over the place. And quite frankly, I don't see an awful lot, if anything, being done in those areas to stop the actions.

Iran and taliban/AQ areas are where you usually hear about this stuff. I don't know how they so easily manage to give out stoning punishments. Back when the Prophet (saw) was around, they did their best to ignore it. A guy went up to Mohamed (saw) to confess adultery once and several times, the Prophet (saw) turned his head to ignore him, asked him if he is crazy?, reminded him of what the punishment was etc... but he insisted that he did it, confessed and demanded to be stoned. He eventually was, but the point is from the Prophet's (saw) example that such punishments are not supposed to be lauded over people to cause them hardship in their lives, but to act as a deterrent for crimes. The law states that the act of adultery must be witnessed by four people and they must have seen the incident happen close up. They must witness the penis entering the vagina as if they had "seen the Kohl needle enter a Kohl bottle." What are they doing in Taliban areas? Having live sex shows then stoning the actors?

Some say the death penalty in the US is babarbic too, but the punishment is not given often. Usually a lesser punishment such as life in prison is given. In a way, avoiding the greater punishment is in fact a Shariah concept! It's better to err on the side of caution than to make a big mistake that would later be regretted.

[Drummond]

How do you work that out? If consent is not obtained from both bride and groom, the marriage is invalid and can be immediately annulled.



Since the marriage was not valid in the first place, she can easily have it annulled.

Anyway, it's harder to get a divorce in Western Law. It's also more expensive.

I divorced my previous wife, by mutual consent as per Islamic Law by simply telling her "talaq" 3 times. She agreed and all that was left was the signing of a piece of paper. However we were also married under French Law for the civil union. That is only just about to be completed taking four years and costing me almost 5000 Euros!

Just thought I'd chip in here, with a reminder of what I posted some months ago .... this concerning an undercover investigation done by the BBC to see how Sharia courts were being run in the UK. One key finding was that women are greatly disadvantaged when it comes to marital advice .. this including the way things are stacked against them if they pursue their intention to divorce.

Men have a far easier time of it than do women.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22044724


Leyton Islamic Sharia Council is Britain's oldest Islamic council and one of the most active, hearing about 50 cases a month - mainly marital disputes. Nine out of 10 are brought by Muslim women from all over the country.

With an Islamic marriage, it is far easier for a man to divorce. The only way for women is through these councils.

"We are not here just to issue divorces," says Dr Hasan.

"We want to mediate first. We try to save marriages so when people come to us we try to reconcile them."

But Islamic rulings given here are not always in the interests of the women concerned, and can run counter to British law.

In Leeds I met Sonia, a woman who suffered extreme violence from her husband, who punched and kicked her and threw her down the stairs. He also hit their son. When Sonia got a civil divorce, the courts would allow him only indirect access to the children.

Sharia courts are not allowed to interfere in child access matters, but when Sonia went to Leyton Islamic Sharia Council for a Sharia divorce, they told her she would have to give the children up to her husband.

"I couldn't bear the thought of such a violent person having my children," said Sonia.

"What was shocking was when I explained to them why he shouldn't have that access to the children, their reaction was - well, you can't go against what Islam says."

See that ? The REALITY is one of pressuring women to stay in marriages, no matter how abusive they may be.

I also see, Jafar, that in another post you said ... 'Shariah is designed to adapt' (.. to modern conditions ?). Well, the UK experience says the opposite. Rather, faithful Islamic followers are expected to NOT adapt to rules and conditions which reflect modern freedoms and thinking.

The result is needless, actually gratuitous, suffering.

[jafar00]

Just thought I'd chip in here, with a reminder of what I posted some months ago .... this concerning an undercover investigation done by the BBC to see how Sharia courts were being run in the UK. One key finding was that women are greatly disadvantaged when it comes to marital advice .. this including the way things are stacked against them if they pursue their intention to divorce.

Men have a far easier time of it than do women.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22044724



See that ? The REALITY is one of pressuring women to stay in marriages, no matter how abusive they may be.

I also see, Jafar, that in another post you said ... 'Shariah is designed to adapt' (.. to modern conditions ?). Well, the UK experience says the opposite. Rather, faithful Islamic followers are expected to NOT adapt to rules and conditions which reflect modern freedoms and thinking.

The result is needless, actually gratuitous, suffering.

The problem is obvious in the UK. It seems all these incidents of abuse are involving Pakistani Taliban types who are importing their distorted ideology into UK mosques.

While a divorce should be avoided if possible via mediation, it shouldn't be that difficult for someone to divorce from an abusive partner.

[Gaffer]

sharia law does not adapt. It is the same today as it was 1400 years ago. Remove sharia from islam and you may eventually have a peaceful religion.

[Drummond]

The problem is obvious in the UK. It seems all these incidents of abuse are involving Pakistani Taliban types who are importing their distorted ideology into UK mosques.

While a divorce should be avoided if possible via mediation, it shouldn't be that difficult for someone to divorce from an abusive partner.

Nowhere in the BBC report was there any attempt made to suggest that 'Taliban types' were responsible for what they'd discovered. Even the BBC didn't try that one !! No, what they uncovered was the excesses of Sharia Law practise here, showing it to be in defiance of both Western values, and British law.

This is the very OPPOSITE of evidence that adaptation is any part of Sharia.

[jafar00]

Nowhere in the BBC report was there any attempt made to suggest that 'Taliban types' were responsible for what they'd discovered. Even the BBC didn't try that one !! No, what they uncovered was the excesses of Sharia Law practise here, showing it to be in defiance of both Western values, and British law.

This is the very OPPOSITE of evidence that adaptation is any part of Sharia.

All I can say is my experience with Shariah is vastly different to what these reports are saying. That suggests to me that what is being reported as Shariah is not in fact Shariah.

[Drummond]

All I can say is my experience with Shariah is vastly different to what these reports are saying. That suggests to me that what is being reported as Shariah is not in fact Shariah.

The BBC thought it was. Those sitting in the 'courts' thought it was (.. and they certainly claimed it !!).

Those subject to its rulings, indeed, those who sought them out in the first place (!!!) all thought it was.

How come everyone else has got it wrong, Jafar, and you have got it right ?

[jafar00]

The BBC thought it was. Those sitting in the 'courts' thought it was (.. and they certainly claimed it !!).

Those subject to its rulings, indeed, those who sought them out in the first place (!!!) all thought it was.

How come everyone else has got it wrong, Jafar, and you have got it right ?

Perhaps the BBC should have sought some guidance from knowledgeable Muslims before doing the anti Muslim rant.