We argue over too many senseless things

[gabosaurus]

One thing I noticed when I was in Australia was that they don't waste time arguing over their government. They have pretty much the same political system, with two primary parties battling for control. But they aren't a divided country. When Australia lost the Ashes to England earlier this year, or lost to New Zealand, they didn't blame former PM Julia Gillard. They aren't fighting about gun rights, either.

When I was at the MCG for the cricket, my Melbourne friend Sharon took me out to visit with the Barmy Army. They are a group of Brits who travel to support the English cricket team. Some are conservatives. Some are Labour. They sit together.
One of them told me about a time several years back when they got tired of Sharon slagging their country. So, in true British spirit, they invited her to go drink with them. She drank them under the table. Which earned their respect. (note: no woman should be allow to hold this much liquor and survive).

One of the MCG found out I was American and told me "you lot are going to kill yourselves over there. Instead of killing your adversaries, why not invite them to the pub for a drink?" When I told him that we don't really have friendly drinking places, he pronounced us to be uncivilized. :cool:

Makes it seem kind of stupid to spend so much times bitching about things. No worries, mate.

[DragonStryk72]

One thing I noticed when I was in Australia was that they don't waste time arguing over their government. They have pretty much the same political system, with two primary parties battling for control. But they aren't a divided country. When Australia lost the Ashes to England earlier this year, or lost to New Zealand, they didn't blame former PM Julia Gillard. They aren't fighting about gun rights, either.

When I was at the MCG for the cricket, my Melbourne friend Sharon took me out to visit with the Barmy Army. They are a group of Brits who travel to support the English cricket team. Some are conservatives. Some are Labour. They sit together.
One of them told me about a time several years back when they got tired of Sharon slagging their country. So, in true British spirit, they invited her to go drink with them. She drank them under the table. Which earned their respect. (note: no woman should be allow to hold this much liquor and survive).

One of the MCG found out I was American and told me "you lot are going to kill yourselves over there. Instead of killing your adversaries, why not invite them to the pub for a drink?" When I told him that we don't really have friendly drinking places, he pronounced us to be uncivilized. :cool:

Makes it seem kind of stupid to spend so much times bitching about things. No worries, mate.

Yeah, but you also have to look at how political campaigns are run, as well as governmental proceedings, over here. Both parties here in the US spend their entire run of campaign screaming at one another, "THEY DID IT! THEY ARE EVERYTHING THAT'S WRONG WITH THIS COUNTRY!!!". I'm not leaving either of the major parties out of this.

Hell, I thought Ireland's government was awesome. They have six major political parties, and nowhere near the divisiveness of our politics. But then, look how often their government's do anything major, and how much time they spend explaining bills within their governments. There, they have to fully explain their bill, and anyone who has an addendum must get up and explain the addendum, and why it is relevant to the bill in question.

But all in all, they don't actually put through as many bills as we do, and don't feel the need to constantly name their bills in a manner so as to make anyone voting against look like an asshole (Affordable Care Act, Patriot Act, Meghan's Law, Defense of Marriage Act etc.).

[revelarts]

there's A LOT to be said for civility, but for some reason some people here have a reeeal hard time giving others the benny of the doubt in their sincere desire for a making the country better, even if you don't agree with them. Add to that the caricatured picture we make of each others views. but MOST people really aren't set on "destroying the world as we know it". Personally i do believe there are some in power and in the shadows that do want that. But imo it seems most avg folk ,left n right, really want the system to work like we say it works.

There's a lot to be said for civility but it's no good to allow civility to let you loose your right to bear arms --as they have-- or other rights. Having a drink at the pub is fine but if you end up being robbed while the charming thieves are telling you a funny story and showing you what good ol boys they are... well if your smart your not going to let the civil conversation stop you from civilly taking their arses to court, and civilly getting your stolen goods back. if possible. And really, how often are you going to go to have drinks with someone who you know is trying to take your stuff, for your own good of course?

some issues are really petty, red and blue for red and blue sake is stupid imo,
but our freedoms and the bill of rights aren't senseless things seems to me.

[fj1200]

The future of the western world is senseless??? Who knew??? :dunno:

[revelarts]

The future of the western world is senseless??? Who knew??? :dunno:
FJ, you liberal, you've missed the point , ya see all the problems and conflicts in the world will disappear over a drink and a few steaks on the barbee' mate.

if a few of your rights disappear in the process , you'll be to plastered to care!

[KarlMarx]

The problem with this argument is that the Australians don't have a Prime Minister that is trying to reinvent Australian society, nor trying to take over a third of their economy, and jeopardizing millions of Australians' access to health insurance and their relationships with their physicians, regularly arranges a show down with the opposite party over the debt limit and dares them to shut down the government.....

[fj1200]

FJ, you liberal, you've missed the point , ya see all the problems and conflicts in the world will disappear over a drink and a few steaks on the barbee' mate.

if a few of your rights disappear in the process , you'll be to plastered to care!

You're right of course. It's also easy to abstain from arguing over the "senseless" when your country is a mere afterthought on the global stage. :poke:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

He that runs the show has to pay the band and take the hard blows. America can not afford the luxury of doing that. Australia CAN BECAUSE ON THE WORLD STAGE IT RANKS SO VERY LOW. Our freedoms allow us to be so divisive. In other political systems the lack of freedom makes for a less divisive operating system. Do not worry Gabby ,Obama is taking us there faster than you can say -- "yes please, make me a groveling slave". I point to the fact that they let the government disarm them so exactly how could they not bow to its demands? And why argue about "conditions" when one has agreed to meekly go into slavery as they have? -Tyr

[gabosaurus]

I am currently attempting to figure out what I meant to say in this thread. I know that I posted it here for a reason. :dunno:

[DragonStryk72]

I am currently attempting to figure out what I meant to say in this thread. I know that I posted it here for a reason. :dunno:

Well, you have no further to look than this thread to see what you were talking about. Sigh, I really am trying to have a proper discussion with you about this, so my suggestion: Just ignore the guys that are going off into the extremes, and we can talk about it.

[gabosaurus]

Well, you have no further to look than this thread to see what you were talking about. Sigh, I really am trying to have a proper discussion with you about this, so my suggestion: Just ignore the guys that are going off into the extremes, and we can talk about it.

What I meant was that I can't recall my original points of view when I posted this. I was attempting to recall what my jet lagged brain was thinking.
The U.S. has a large, diverse population that is getting increasingly polarized over certain issues. We have two entrenched political parties, of which one makes more noise than the other. The Aussies who followed American politics in the 2012 election were somewhat surprised that GOP supporters made so much noise, yet got so little back in the results.
One aspect of the Aussie political system that I liked is that they have no system of primaries. The Aussies vote for a ruling party, not a person. Of course, the party has predetermined one of their elected officials to serve as their leader.

Australians are bemused over exasperated opposition rancor over Obama. If he is such a bad person, why did you elect him? And why waste furor at a lame duck politician? Go to the pub and figure out how to win the next election.

[glockmail]

We spend time bitching, Gabs, because we have over 50% of the country now classified as 'takers', and we 'producers' never liked them, and never will.

[tailfins]

We spend time bitching, Gabs, because we have over 50% of the country now classified as 'takers', and we 'producers' never liked them, and never will.

Takers are not just those on the government dole. They are also those that use others people's work to create the perception they are accomplishing something when they are not. That is the source of a huge number of software bugs.

[jafar00]

The problem with this argument is that the Australians don't have a Prime Minister that is trying to reinvent Australian society, nor trying to take over a third of their economy, and jeopardizing millions of Australians' access to health insurance and their relationships with their physicians, regularly arranges a show down with the opposite party over the debt limit and dares them to shut down the government.....

Actually, the bastard in power right now is destroying our International relations, running the economy into the ground, breaking every single election promise, trying to abolish free doctor consultations which will hit pensioners and low income families the most, removed caps on Private Health Insurance premiums which is forcing many back onto public health, delisting some of our World Heritage listed forests and national parks to allow logging, axed animal welfare and women's rights programs, drastically cut support services for indigenous Australians, breaks promises regarding our national broadband network which will be decades behind some of our poorer, less developed, Asian neighbours, reversed pay rises for already underpaid child care and aged care workers, mismanaged the situation with Holden resulting in GM leaving the country and costing 50,000 jobs, reversed a major school funding program put in place by the previous govt, actively condones torture by foreign govts, the list goes on.

We have quite a bit to be pissed off about, but we don't spend too much time on it. Most of us are waiting for the new year when a double dissolution is likely over the issue of the carbon tax.

We are just waiting to vote the bastard out! :)

[DragonStryk72]

What I meant was that I can't recall my original points of view when I posted this. I was attempting to recall what my jet lagged brain was thinking.
The U.S. has a large, diverse population that is getting increasingly polarized over certain issues. We have two entrenched political parties, of which one makes more noise than the other. The Aussies who followed American politics in the 2012 election were somewhat surprised that GOP supporters made so much noise, yet got so little back in the results.
One aspect of the Aussie political system that I liked is that they have no system of primaries. The Aussies vote for a ruling party, not a person. Of course, the party has predetermined one of their elected officials to serve as their leader.

Australians are bemused over exasperated opposition rancor over Obama. If he is such a bad person, why did you elect him? And why waste furor at a lame duck politician? Go to the pub and figure out how to win the next election.

Well, actually, the people who dislike him didn't elect him, and of those who did vote for him and have since changed their minds, they generally feel lied to and used... which is a fair cop. Again, there's a huge difference in Australia, because campaigning itself is different there. Here, our politicians have a tendency toward using polarizing tactics to whip up their voters into a frenzy. Democrats and Republicans both do this as pretty much the core of the argument for getting into power, and thus they create their own monster.

The politicians play to the mob, and never stop campaigning anymore. And in the last decade, seem to be trying to focus on whittling down the checks and balances by trying to flatly control as much territory as they can between the House, Senate, Supreme Court, and the Presidency. Instead of the SCOTUS being an entirely neutral party, it is now a giant political contention, with both parties trying to load the bench, so as to stack the deck in their favor.

Obama created the insane opposition to him, due to his extremely partisan way of campaigning, and his history of slapping the other party right in the face, repeatedly and at length. Not that Romney's any better, but just saying that it's the way it is.

Even you, who wish everyone to calm down, get caught up in the game a number of times, rushing into a thread, dropping a round slap to everyone, whether they deserved it or not, and then moving on. It's endemic to the core issue we are facing right now, that of our self-reinforcing polarization. Think about it, on every subject that our government will actually do anything about, Americans are on the same page:

We want to get the debt paid down.

We want a more stable economy and jobs that pay the bills, and leave us with something left over.

We want lower crime.

Our argument is how to go about doing these things, but you'll probably notice that I said "That our government will actually do anything about". Gay marriage, abortion, and illegal immigration are going to continue as state issues, not a federal one. The reason is pretty basic: Because this way, the can use them for campaigning. Seriously, no one actually does a single damn thing about any of these things at the federal level since the Reagan administration.

So why even bring it up? Because they are issues that are close to our hearts, and force us to choose sides. There's no actual need to do anything, and they can then get around having to come up with any more significant legislation after that, because they've already cast themselves as the hero of the people, while labeling their opponent as their enemy.