Female Marines Not Required To Do 1 Pull-Up

[jimnyc]

I don't care if it's a woman or a man - if you can't do at least one pull-up, I wouldn't want you on the battlefield with me. This isn't to say that one can't find other useful things to do outside of where any strength at all is required - but not even one pull-up? Reminds me of the video at the bottom...


(CNSNews.com) -- Females in the Marine Corps currently are not required to do even a single pull-up, and a deadline mandating that by Jan. 1, 2014, they be able to do at least 3 pull-ups as part of their training has been delayed for at least a year, the Corps quietly announced on social media.

Unlike their female counterparts, male Marines have long been required to do at least 3 pullups as part of the Physical Fitness Test (PFT). That's the minimum requirement for males.

Female Marines are required, however, to do a flexed-arm hang from a bar, and their PFT score is calculated based upon how long they can properly hang on the bar.

Currently, “women aren’t able to make the minimum standard of three pull-ups,” Marine spokesman Capt. Eric Flanagan told CNSNews.com. Fifty-five percent of female recruits tested at the end of boot camp were unable to do three pull-ups (1 percent of male recruits also failed).

Marine officers told NPR off-the-record that, given the three-pull-ups rule, they were afraid of losing “not only new recruits, but also current female Marines who can’t pass the test.”

Female Marines will be allowed to do the flexed-arm hang instead of pull-ups this year. With the arm hang, a person grabs the bar with both hands and pulls their body up and holds their chin above the bar for as long as possible.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-boland/female-marines-not-required-do-1-pull

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[LiberalNation]

So.... They do an alternative to score in that event.

[jimnyc]

So.... They do an alternative to score in that event.

And what's the alternative when on the battlefield and they cannot pull their weight? Do you really think the military is a place for shortcuts?

[aboutime]

So.... They do an alternative to score in that event.


And, the alternative to SURVIVING someone stronger is.....Being a Weakling who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag???? The Few, The Formerly Proud, The WEAK KNEE'D MARINES????

[LiberalNation]

And what's the alternative when on the battlefield and they cannot pull their weight? Do you really think the military is a place for shortcuts?
Lol I think the marines can handle it. Doesn't take that many pull-ups to pull a trigger or fly a helicopter ext.

[jimnyc]

Lol I think the marines can handle it. Doesn't take that many pull-ups to pull a trigger or fly a helicopter ext.

In some cases you may be right, I did say that I thought there would be alternatives. If someone wants to serve, there will always be a place - but it shouldn't be the front lines if that person can't do a single pull-up. Sure, just pulling a trigger, but what happens when an IED goes off, or a mortal shell hits and 3 of your comrades are taken out and 2 of them incapacitated by injuries? Now someone needs to help out and carry the weight, maybe even literally carry someone, or run with extra baggage, or go the extra mile to save a life. Who do we want there in case that happens, someone who can't even do a single pull-up?

How many were you able to do? I have no clue but am willing to bet it was more than one!!

[LiberalNation]

The Army doesn't even have pull ups as part of its pt test at least it didn't when I was in. Don't know about the new pt test. I knew several men who passed basic who couldn't do a pull up in regular pt & they're soldiers now. Ain't such a big deal.

[logroller]

Do try just have to hang there then? With push-ups do they get have their knees down?

[jimnyc]

The Army doesn't even have pull ups as part of its pt test at least it didn't when I was in. Don't know about the new pt test. I knew several men who passed basic who couldn't do a pull up in regular pt & they're soldiers now. Ain't such a big deal.

My opinion would be identical whether it was man or woman who couldn't pass certain physicals, especially very easy ones. But I'll defer to your knowledge as you were in there and I wasn't. I just know I would feel more comfortable knowing that the guy/gal next to me was in tip top shape and capable of getting me out of hell, should that happen.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Lowering of the standards just as I and many others predicted would come about! Any person that can not do at least 25 pull ups or 100 sit ups should not be an American soldier and certainly not an American Marine! Hell, I am a few months shy of 60 years old and I can do both of those I just cited even after having a heart attack three years ago. Sad to see such a rapid vindication of our prediction on this matter. We stated that "it was to weaken our military" and now here is the damn proof!! ok, so I only made 82 sit ups last year when proving to my older brother how much strength I had gained back! I could have done the other 18 but was worried it would possibly injure my bad back but I did do 31 pull ups on the tree limb in my front yard. Not bad for an old dog! Mind you , I didn't even chance trying to max out my test because it wasn't worth it to injure myself. Anybody that has ever had a serious back injury can and will know the truth of that. Just damn sad to see our young men only have to meet such weakling tests. I bet Chesty Puller is rolling over in his grave over this!-Tyr

[Gaffer]

I high school I could do 50 pull ups. I could do the rope climb in 4.5 seconds. 100 sit ups. 50 push ups. That was the requirements for an A in gym. I always got an A.

And now you say the Marines only have to be able to do three pull ups. They would not have made it in my high school, let alone the military of my time.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The Army doesn't even have pull ups as part of its pt test at least it didn't when I was in. Don't know about the new pt test. I knew several men who passed basic who couldn't do a pull up in regular pt & they're soldiers now. Ain't such a big deal. Bullshat, it is a big deal. Let you be the soldier lying there shot all to hell but still able to live if gotten to Med help soon enough and then your fellow soldier can not even carry your ass ten feet to get you to help. Then tell me its not a big deal! Tell me its not a big deal if and when ammo runs out and the soldier next to you has not the strength to win in hand to hand combat ,then his attacker is able to join your attacker the kill you! There is a reason strength and conditioning are of paramount importance in the military. I fail to see how any soldier can state otherwise. Yet now limp wristed girlie men are all the rage,, just see how the hell that does for us on the damn battlefield. Its a war out there or didn't anybody ever tell you that? A damn good study of war teaches that the concept THAT IT -"Aint such a big deal" is off the chart folly IMHO.. -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I high school I could do 50 pull ups. I could do the rope climb in 4.5 seconds. 100 sit ups. 50 push ups. That was the requirements for an A in gym. I always got an A.

And now you say the Marines only have to be able to do three pull ups. They would not have made it in my high school, let alone the military of my time. In high school my record was 151 sit ups, I placed second in that in gym. Pull ups was in the high 60's(no reason to strain myself) but my advantage there was that I was way underweight with very ,very strong arms--upper body strength. Now my older brother made me look like a punk in both those exercises. Nothing but the truth he was a real life Hercules. By anybody's standards I was a very strong guy, very strong , yet he made me look like a little kid in strength contests. I however could always outshoot him pistol, rifle , shotgun or bow and that hurt him(his ego) far more than his far, far greater strength ever hurt me!!! HE GOT DAD AND GRANDDAD'S STRENGTH WHILE I GOT THIER SHOOTING ABILITIES! Coaches begged us to go out for football and track. We just laughed at them. Didn't want anything to interfere with our hunting, chasing pretty and loose girls, drinking on weekends. Wild as hell pretty much fit us after our dad passed away. Gaffer, I never got less than an A in gym class. They used to make us run til we dropped I was one of the 4 that never dropped. We'd have to run the entire 45 minutes leaving just about 5 minutes to get dress and head to next class. My brothers and I were blessed with great genetics ! I'd run by the guys that dropped out and smile at them. That even pissed off some that were my friends . :laugh:--Tyr

[Kathianne]

I don't care if it's a woman or a man - if you can't do at least one pull-up, I wouldn't want you on the battlefield with me. This isn't to say that one can't find other useful things to do outside of where any strength at all is required - but not even one pull-up? Reminds me of the video at the bottom...



http://cnsnews.com/news/article/barbara-boland/female-marines-not-required-do-1-pull

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Actually, the number of women that can meet the requirement speaks volumes regarding the women that choose to enlist. We can be pretty certain that 99% of males completing training aren't way above and beyond the norm of all males. Yet, I very much doubt that 45% of random females could do even 3 pull ups. Why? Differences between the sexes-no cultural, but biological.

Most adult women do not have the upper body strength necessary for this.

The real question to be addressed is just how much upper body strength is required to fulfill combat requirements? I'm guessing quite a lot. If correct, I too wouldn't want to be dependent on someone unable, truly unable to perform those tasks.

Once again I'm going with 'those that can meet the requirements' should be allowed in, those that are unable; 55% of women and 1% of men, should either not be allowed in or should be in other service areas.

Genitalia shouldn't be the requirement, ability should be.

[jimnyc]

Actually, the number of women that can meet the requirement speaks volumes regarding the women that choose to enlist. We can be pretty certain that 99% of males completing training aren't way above and beyond the norm of all males. Yet, I very much doubt that 45% of random females could do even 3 pull ups. Why? Differences between the sexes-no cultural, but biological.

Most adult women do not have the upper body strength necessary for this.

The real question to be addressed is just how much upper body strength is required to fulfill combat requirements? I'm guessing quite a lot. If correct, I too wouldn't want to be dependent on someone unable, truly unable to perform those tasks.

Once again I'm going with 'those that can meet the requirements' should be allowed in, those that are unable; 55% of women and 1% of men, should either not be allowed in or should be in other service areas.

Genitalia shouldn't be the requirement, ability should be.

Well stated, Kath, as usual. :)

Yeah, I don't really see this as a male vs female issue, but rather a "marine" that needs to meet some sort of requirement, and one that might mean life or death should soldiers be in a battlefield situation. And yep, it's not a knock, but some folks are just biologically different. In an issue such as this, ignoring requirements and making exceptions can lead to death.

[Jeff]

This same thing happened years ago when the NJ troopers decided to let woman on the force ( before allowing woman they had a strict set of rules to join, you had to be no more than a certain body fat % a certain height and you most certainly had to be able to pass all physical requirements ) So of course when they allowed woman they had to drop all the physical rules and how did this work out for them? the first woman trooper was found on the Parkway locked in her car crying hysterically and calling for help on the radio ( why because someone had a gun ? NO, she was against a crowd? NO...) she had pulled one Drunk Black man over and he refused to listen to her and acted as drunks do , so she became scared :laugh: Now make no mistake size doesn't mean everything and yes I know woman that can do the job as well as a man can but the average woman just isn't physically as strong as the average male, again that is not saying that there aren't any woman that are, but maybe some woman must be weeded out ( just as they do to the men but of course as well as the requirements changing so has the mental requirements ) This also changed the requirements for men ( at one point I think it was 6 foot you had to be to even apply ) So now you have troopers that are 5'5", I know this because the 5'5 guy I speak of is one of my friends, he is also a black belt and just simply tough as nails, and he has rose through the ranks, so yes sometimes things change and it works .

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well stated, Kath, as usual. :)

Yeah, I don't really see this as a male vs female issue, but rather a "marine" that needs to meet some sort of requirement, and one that might mean life or death should soldiers be in a battlefield situation. And yep, it's not a knock, but some folks are just biologically different. In an issue such as this, ignoring requirements and making exceptions can lead to death. I agree with Kat's position on this. They should never bring the standards down instead they should only pass those of either sex that can meet and/or exceed those standards. And yes in a major conflict what they have now just done(lowering standards) will lead to a great many extra deaths. Deaths that can be laid at the feet of the idiots doing this--dems and liberals. Not a single conservative that I know holds that this crap they have now done is right or in any way a justified act. Not even one! The criteria should be nobody becomes a combat soldier(infantry) unless they can pick up a 150 pound man, toss him on their shoulder and run at least 50 yards with him, and I do mean run not walk. Hell, I am almost 60 and not in the best health and I can still do that. Certainly nobody should ever become a Marine, Navy Seal or SPECIAL OPS that can not do at least that.-Tyr

[Gaffer]

One of the big problems with women wanting to get in the military or police forces is TV and movies. Watching cute little model types throw big hair men to the ground or through windows inspires many. In reality she gets her face tore off.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

One of the big problems with women wanting to get in the military or police forces is TV and movies. Watching cute little model types throw big hair men to the ground or through windows inspires many. In reality she gets her face tore off. When I was a much younger man I did construction work, worked for years laying brick, stone and/or block. In stone we used one 50lb bag of mason cement and a 75 lb bag of Marquette concrete mix in each batch coming out of the mixer. I used to load a 75lb bag on each shoulder to carry to the mixer and sand pile from wherever the Lumber company had dropped off the pallet of supplies which often times was far away from the mixer and sand. I'd put that 150lbs on my shoulders and often just run back to the mixer. The old guys on the crew taunted me but did admire it. Well, then comes the day my older brother was unemployed and I got him hired on my crew. He saw me do that and just for laughs(really to show me up) he had Jerry placed two 50lb bags of mason cement on each shoulder and then ran to the mixer setting them down. That's two hundred pounds he ran with! Told he couldn't do it again by the older guys he did it twice more. The distance that day was just about 60 yards from the cement down at the street edge up to the mixer(tell me that ain't a real a Hoss!). When they dared him to do it again he finally figured out they were helping me as that was my job! Sure it put my display to shame but I was hoping to get him to do that every day myself. The older guys overplayed the hand and ruined it. :laugh:.. Now this is true and has not been exaggerated at all. In laying stone one gets paid by the square feet of stone laid. So using the massive stones pays big bucks. When he worked with us instead of two men rolling those massive stones(0ften very close 300 pounds) to lay on the ground course he would just walk over, pick them up by himself , and walk to the building/house to lay them. Now granted he was the strongest guy I ever knew other than my father and Indian grandfather. He is 63 now and trust me still able to snatch 200+ lbs around like you and I would do 150(lucky guy no health problems). After he showed me up to the guys I never put on a strength display for them again. However much to his dismay I did often speak of my always beating him at shooting any weapon. In fact , so often that he would get mad and threaten to beat my ass! :laugh::laugh::laugh:. AND THAT WAS REVENGE ENOUGH FOR ME. :laugh2:--Tyr

[fj1200]

This same thing happened years ago when the NJ troopers decided to let woman on the force ( before allowing woman they had a strict set of rules to join, you had to be no more than a certain body fat % a certain height and you most certainly had to be able to pass all physical requirements )...

Well that depends, were the standards that you needed to bench 300* pounds when benching 100* pounds is sufficient to do the job? If you have an arbitrary number or a number specifically used to deny a group then it makes that number subject to challenge.

*completely made up numbers. :)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Well that depends, were the standards that you needed to bench 300* pounds when benching 100* pounds is sufficient to do the job? If you have an arbitrary number or a number specifically used to deny a group then it makes that number subject to challenge.

*completely made up numbers. :) YES, I COULD TELL THEY WERE MADE UP . And benching 100 pounds is what most boys can do at 12 or 13 years old(certainly farm boys). Well , used to be so, these days I doubt it is a reality because of video games and other strength destroying kid games. Our military can not afford the luxuries the politicians are forcing on it in their little social experiments!! We once had a set of standards and they were not arbitrary. No reason not to reinstate those and problem solved. Making such insane allowances will do more than just get more soldiers killed it will likely lead to our major defeat in some future war. Everything I posted earlier on this subject in that thread long ago has been born out with this lowering of standards which was my main objection then!! Yet we had people swearing that wouldn't happen. I however am a better judge of human nature and thus knew it would!-Tyr

[fj1200]

YES, I COULD TELL THEY WERE MADE UP . ... We once had a set of standards and they were not arbitrary.

They were made up because the specific number was irrelevant to the point. And just because we had those numbers doesn't mean that they weren't arbitrary, whether they were arbitrary or not is a different point to the one I was making.

[revelarts]

lowering the standards is crazy, many woman CAN do all the min required, as Kath says if a man or female can't they are out of the program.

I know a couple of guys that washed out of the military for various reasons, one guy wasn't wrap to tight mentally so they let him go.

BUT personally I don't think women should be in combat. period. it's just a fact that women are abused when captured and sadly too often they are abused and raped by our own soldiers.
and call me old fashion but I think the guys ought to protect the women if it away from home. At home the ladies need to be as prepared as the guys. IMHO.

As far as fitness goes I've taken martial arts and have had women kick the the living tar out of me. never knocked me out or beat me but came close.


but no pull ups c'mon,
this is a mom of 2, training on her own.

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[Abbey Marie]

I've been saying this since cities started letting women join the fire department:

Figure out what requirements you REALLY NEED to do the job safely and effectively for all involved, and stick to those requirements. Don't make excuses, exceptions, or substitutions. Also, don't just keep doing what you've always done if it's not needed. If women can meet those real requirements, and can handle the mental stress, and you can "house" them separately without financially strapping your unit/company/firehouse etc., they should be allowed to do the job. If not, find another job to do.

[Kathianne]

lowering the standards is crazy, many woman CAN do all the min required, as Kath says if a man or female can't they are out of the program.

I know a couple of guys that washed out of the military for various reasons, one guy wasn't wrap to tight mentally so they let him go.

BUT personally I don't think women should be in combat. period. it's just a fact that women are abused when captured and sadly too often they are abused and raped by our own soldiers.
and call me old fashion but I think the guys ought to protect the women if it away from home.

I won't call you 'old fashioned,' I'd call you a realist in the survivalist mode. The numbers in the article make it really clear. The women enlisting really 'want' to be there, yet less than half can pass. Meanwhile assuming the males want to succeed, only 1% can't perform this test of upper body strength. The women are driven, assuming the men are too, (99%?) why the difference? Biology.

Men are made to protect and defend women and children, whether one presumes it was a creator that did so or just chalks it up to evolution, males have the musculature to throw spears and the modern equivalencies. Some women do too, but obviously not at the rate that makes them 'equal.'

I don't want to be 'equal' in this sense. There are many ways that women beat the pants off of men, (not literally), that also contribute to the greater good. Being at the front line of the Marines may not be one of them. For those that can do so, my thanks. Just like all Marines.

[gabosaurus]

I have to agree with the general points of view. Women want to be separate, but equal. Allow anyone to fulfill lesser standards to become a Marine degrades the entire program.
I personally don't understand how so many women can't do a pullup. I can do a pullup. Then again, I don't encounter any ...obstacles... to pulling myself up. :rolleyes:

[Kathianne]

I have to agree with the general points of view. Women want to be separate, but equal. Allow anyone to fulfill lesser standards to become a Marine degrades the entire program.
I personally don't understand how so many women can't do a pullup. I can do a pullup. Then again, I don't encounter any ...obstacles... to pulling myself up. :rolleyes:

Assuming all your pics are true, doubt very much you could pass basic requirements. Including pull-ups. If so, we can assume the articles about the results are lies, put forward to discriminate against women.

Right.

[gabosaurus]

Assuming all your pics are true, doubt very much you could pass basic requirements. Including pull-ups. If so, we can assume the articles about the results are lies, put forward to discriminate against women.
Right.

You are correct. I could pass none of the physical requirements. I can do one pullup. Some of the basic requirements I could not even come close to. The point is, if women want to face active combat, they need to pass the same training as men.

[Kathianne]

You are correct. I could pass none of the physical requirements. I can do one pullup. Some of the basic requirements I could not even come close to. The point is, if women want to face active combat, they need to pass the same training as men.

and yet, Uncle Sam is arguing against that, by not acknowledging such. It's wrong and will hurt the US.

[gabosaurus]

and yet, Uncle Sam is arguing against that, by not acknowledging such. It's wrong and will hurt the US.

I agree. I attribute a lot of it to the military's quota for recruiters. Standards have been dropping for years. My dad's best friend, who served in Viet Nam, went to Marine basic training in San Diego a few years ago. Said it is watered down now to keep enrollment up.

[DragonStryk72]

The Army doesn't even have pull ups as part of its pt test at least it didn't when I was in. Don't know about the new pt test. I knew several men who passed basic who couldn't do a pull up in regular pt & they're soldiers now. Ain't such a big deal.

Um, just a thought, but what if they're on a battlefield, and they have to pull themselves up out of a hole? I mean, floors collapse, and Marines are first in, last out.

And if you're not up for the extra-rigorous physical standards, why join the Marines instead the Army, Navy, or Air Force? Not denigrating any of the services here, but the Marines are widely known to have the biggest physical requirements. Being able to lift your own body-weight at least 1-3 times is somewhat useful to their job.

[CSM]

Interesting discussion (at least to me). I will say that women should be allowed in the military ... no question in my mind about that. There are many, many jobs and tasks that do not require a lot of physical exertion. There also many that do. Those (man or woman) that cannot meet the physical requirements for combat, should not be in combat. Period.

All that being said, let's be real here. The standards are lowered for women because it is politically correct. The standards were NOT lowered because there are not enough recruits and they were not lowered because some tasks are less physical in nature. You will never convince me otherwise. In reality, I don't have a problem with lowered standards; where I do have a problem is when it comes to promotions, women meeting the lowered standards are in competition with men meeting the higher standards and, sometimes, based on those disparate standards, a fully competent man is passed over for promotion in favor of the woman who managed to do well in an "alternative" event.

Regarding the specific circumstance cited in the OP, have you ever had to pull yourself over a wall that is taller than you are? It happens more than you might think in combat. Heck, even pulling yourself up into the back of a truck with full combat load takes a bit of strength (more than 1 pullup for sure).

Folks, this isn't about one gender being "better' than the other. It is about being able to do the job. The standards are not just "arbitrary numbers" either. They are MINIMUM requirements that indicate whether a person can can handle the physical requirements of soldiers and Marines in combat. I have seen soldiers in combat that are substandard and I can tell you there is a price to pay (not necessarily by that soldier, either). Hefting 100 pound shells one after another while firing a battery six as fast as you can is not for the weak; there is no "alternative" event for that either. Lugging boxes of ammo for that machine gun or carrying that mortar base plate (80+ pounds) mile after mile won't happen because the military bends to political correctness and lowers standards for one group or another.

There are jobs for women in the military and there are jobs for the less physically inclined male too. The bottom line is that if you are in a theater of war, given the nature of warfare these days, there is no front line. Anyone who is in that theater may find themselves under attack at any time. When the shit hits the fan is no time to figure out that the "alternative" event the soldier passed at boot camp just wasn't adequate.

But hey, the politically correct crowd is happy, so it's all good, right?

[Abbey Marie]

I agree. I attribute a lot of it to the military's quota for recruiters. Standards have been dropping for years. My dad's best friend, who served in Viet Nam, went to Marine basic training in San Diego a few years ago. Said it is watered down now to keep enrollment up.

LiberalNation's post elsewhere attests to your point about watered-down requirements.

[Jeff]

Well that depends, were the standards that you needed to bench 300* pounds when benching 100* pounds is sufficient to do the job? If you have an arbitrary number or a number specifically used to deny a group then it makes that number subject to challenge.

*completely made up numbers. :)


Agreed, but remember I am old :laugh: years ago people didn't so much worry about being politically correct !! For the Troopers they wanted to be the best and at that time they where ranked #2 in the world ( right behind the Canadian Mounties ) as a law enforcement force ( honestly no I never looked that up , I just remember the adults all talking about it )

Somewhere you have to draw the line, my youngest is on the Middle School Wrestling team and they have to allow girls on the team, so lets see , what 12 to 14 year old boy wouldn't love to wrestle a girl ( girls that are starting to look like young ladies ) Every Match I have been to I have watched a girl on our team ( who is built much more like a H.S. student ) get sexually assaulted, yes these boys are putting them in positions and refusing to pin them ( letting them up right before the slap ) just to get a cheap feel and every boy that comes off the mat has a big smile, certainly not the young ladies fault but hell if I can see this where the hell are her parents? or how about the coaches ? Who I am sure just don't know what to do ( Its one of those things you can see but not prove )

That brings me to another point, why is it that boys must share there sports, clubs, ect... but what do you think would happen when a boy shows up for the try outs at the GIRLS softball team ( first he would have to learn to take a lot of trash from his friends :laugh: ) but we all know he would be told that boys are just physically stronger than girls so therefore it wouldn't be fair to allow him to play :eek:

This is a awful lot like what is going on in this Country with race relations, I belonged to the Elks ( while living in NJ ) and a Gym teacher from town ( a black man ) decided he wanted to join the Elks ( he was told no , at that point blacks weren't allowed ) Well of course it went to court and he had to be allowed in ( I am not saying I agree with him not being allowed but this is the part that bothered me ) Seems the Blacks have a elks all there own it is called the Exalted order ( or some shit like that ) and you guessed it it is BLACKS ONLY.

Somewhere we have to stop dropping expectations or allowing the Government to change rules that have been in play forever just to be political correct and go back to common sense .

[Jeff]

I agree. I attribute a lot of it to the military's quota for recruiters. Standards have been dropping for years. My dad's best friend, who served in Viet Nam, went to Marine basic training in San Diego a few years ago. Said it is watered down now to keep enrollment up.


Gabby one of my best friends served during Nam , well one day after H.S. a friend of mine that had joined the Marines was home after Boot camp , well one day the 3 of us where working on a bike and just talking and the younger Marine started complaining over his treatment in Boot camp, My older buddy had a weird look on his face as the other guy explained they had to eat Burgers all the time and only so many soda's a day and all that :laugh: but when he started complaining about the workouts they had the other guy lost it and started calling him half a Marine and all kinds of other stuff, it seems you are exactly right after Nam a lot of the training changed and he just couldn't understand how this kid could complain ( heck not having ever served I have to be honest with ya it didn't sound like a rose garden that the younger guy went through, but where he complained maybe it was one soda a day the older guy said how they got their soda on the weekends once they earned something or another )

[Gaffer]

Gabby one of my best friends served during Nam , well one day after H.S. a friend of mine that had joined the Marines was home after Boot camp , well one day the 3 of us where working on a bike and just talking and the younger Marine started complaining over his treatment in Boot camp, My older buddy had a weird look on his face as the other guy explained they had to eat Burgers all the time and only so many soda's a day and all that :laugh: but when he started complaining about the workouts they had the other guy lost it and started calling him half a Marine and all kinds of other stuff, it seems you are exactly right after Nam a lot of the training changed and he just couldn't understand how this kid could complain ( heck not having ever served I have to be honest with ya it didn't sound like a rose garden that the younger guy went through, but where he complained maybe it was one soda a day the older guy said how they got their soda on the weekends once they earned something or another )

Just reading this makes me go hmmm about todays military. In the army we couldn't get soda anywhere. You also weren't allowed to have candy or even gum. We ate what the mess hall served and nothing more. We ran every where, even just across the company street. We were allowed no contact with other companies or even other platoons. We were up every morning at 4 am and in bed at 10 pm. Sundays were a day of rest, unless you were put on a detail which was frequent. There was no TV, no radio's, no leaving the barracks except for training or work. I probably would have been all over that younger guy myself. And also, my senior drill instructor had been a Marine. His first words to us were, " I can't give you Marine training here, but I'm going to get as close to it as possible."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Just reading this makes me go hmmm about todays military. In the army we couldn't get soda anywhere. You also weren't allowed to have candy or even gum. We ate what the mess hall served and nothing more. We ran every where, even just across the company street. We were allowed no contact with other companies or even other platoons. We were up every morning at 4 am and in bed at 10 pm. Sundays were a day of rest, unless you were put on a detail which was frequent. There was no TV, no radio's, no leaving the barracks except for training or work. I probably would have been all over that younger guy myself. And also, my senior drill instructor had been a Marine. His first words to us were, " I can't give you Marine training here, but I'm going to get as close to it as possible." Dead on accurate both my older brothers were Army during that time. Both were lucky and got sent to Germany to be cannon folder should the Ruskies surge across the border. They both described it exactly as you just did. And 3 weeks field maneuver drills sleeping in the German snow at minus 10/15 sometimes minus 30 degrees ain't a picnic. As you still have to sweat doing all your running and lifting. Then that sweat tries to freeze on ya. Same thing they described during basic and PT. THOSE STANDARDS WERE SET BECAUSE THEY MATCHED WHAT WAS NECESSARY. Todays politicians--especially the dems-- don't give a damn and are by and large about as smart as a damn brick. When greater future losses and deaths result from their stupidity nobody gets to hold them accountable for it. They live on their sweet retirement pensions and laugh al the way to the bank. Most of them deserve a damn good swift kick to their sorry asses everyday of the week and twice on Sundays IMHO..Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Check this out.
http://hotair.com/archives/2013/01/27/some-advice-on-women-in-combat-from-a-female-veteran/ Some advice on women in combat from a female veteran
posted at 5:01 pm on January 27, 2013 by Jazz Shaw Yesterday’s column on women in combat elicited a number of passionate responses from both sides. Some of them came from proponents of the move, frequently citing alternate motives on my part. These ranged from “trying to keep women pregnant in the kitchen” and “Republicans want to lock women in the 1950s” to whichever variant of the GOP’s “war on women” you’d care to name. Many others lent a more sympathetic ear. One in particular, though, caught my attention. It was from one of America’s female veterans who served in Iraq, delivered with a first hand, been there, done that background. The Marine in question – who for purposes of publication will go by the pseudonym of “Sentry” – had previously submitted this history and opinion as a comment at National Review, but her story was compelling enough that I checked into her background, contacted her and decided to republish it here in its entirety. I offer the following as a third party testimony to stand your scrutiny on its own merits.
I’m a female veteran. I deployed to Anbar Province, Iraq. When I was active duty, I was 5’6, 130 pounds, and scored nearly perfect on my PFTs. I naturally have a lot more upper body strength than the average woman: not only can I do pull-ups, I can meet the male standard. I would love to have been in the infantry. And I still think it will be an unmitigated disaster to incorporate women into combat roles. I am not interested in risking men’s lives so I can live my selfish dream.

We’re not just talking about watering down the standards to include the politically correct number of women into the unit. This isn’t an issue of “if a woman can meet the male standard, she should be able to go into combat.” The number of women that can meet the male standard will be miniscule–I’d have a decent shot according to my PFTs, but dragging a 190-pound man in full gear for 100 yards would DESTROY me–and that miniscule number that can physically make the grade AND has the desire to go into combat will be facing an impossible situation that will ruin the combat effectiveness of the unit. First, the close quarters of combat units make for a complete lack of privacy and EVERYTHING is exposed, to include intimate details of bodily functions. Second, until we succeed in completely reprogramming every man in the military to treat women just like men, those men are going to protect a woman at the expense of the mission. Third, women have physical limitations that no amount of training or conditioning can overcome. Fourth, until the media in this country is ready to treat a captured/raped/tortured/mutilated female soldier just like a man, women will be targeted by the enemy without fail and without mercy.

I saw the male combat units when I was in Iraq. They go outside the wire for days at a time. They eat, sleep, urinate and defecate in front of each other and often while on the move. There’s no potty break on the side of the road outside the wire. They urinate into bottles and defecate into MRE bags. I would like to hear a suggestion as to how a woman is going to urinate successfully into a bottle while cramped into a humvee wearing full body armor. And she gets to accomplish this feat with the male members of her combat unit twenty inches away. Volunteers to do that job? Do the men really want to see it? Should they be forced to?

Everyone wants to point to the IDF as a model for gender integration in the military. No, the IDF does not put women on the front lines. They ran into the same wall the US is about to smack into: very few women can meet the standards required to serve there. The few integrated units in the IDF suffered three times the casualties of the all-male units because the Israeli men, just like almost every other group of men on the planet, try to protect the women even at the expense of the mission. Political correctness doesn’t trump thousands of years of evolution and societal norms. Do we really WANT to deprogram that instinct from men?

Regarding physical limitations, not only will a tiny fraction of women be able to meet the male standard, the simple fact is that women tend to be shorter than men. I ran into situations when I was deployed where I simply could not reach something. I wasn’t tall enough. I had to ask a man to get it for me. I can’t train myself to be taller. Yes, there are small men…but not so nearly so many as small women. More, a military PFT doesn’t measure the ability to jump. Men, with more muscular legs and bones that carry more muscle mass than any woman can condition herself to carry, can jump higher and farther than women. That’s why we have a men’s standing jump and long jump event in the Olympics separate from women. When you’re going over a wall in Baghdad that’s ten feet high, you have to be able to be able to reach the top of it in full gear and haul yourself over. That’s not strength per se, that’s just height and the muscular explosive power to jump and reach the top. Having to get a boost from one of the men so you can get up and over could get that man killed.

Without pharmaceutical help, women just do not carry the muscle mass men do. That muscle mass is also a shock absorber. Whether it’s the concussion of a grenade going off, an IED, or just a punch in the face, a woman is more likely to go down because she can’t absorb the concussion as well as a man can. And I don’t care how the PC forces try to slice it, in hand-to-hand combat the average man is going to destroy the average woman because the average woman is smaller, period. Muscle equals force in any kind of strike you care to perform. That’s why we don’t let female boxers face male boxers.

Lastly, this country and our military are NOT prepared to see what the enemy will do to female POWs. The Taliban, AQ, insurgents, jihadis, whatever you want to call them, they don’t abide by the Geneva Conventions and treat women worse than livestock. Google Thomas Tucker and Kristian Menchaca if you want to see what they do to our men (and don’t google it unless you have a strong stomach) and then imagine a woman in their hands. How is our 24/7 news cycle going to cover a captured, raped, mutilated woman? After the first one, how are the men in the military going to treat their female comrades? ONE Thomasina Tucker is going to mean the men in the military will move heaven and earth to protect women, never mind what it does to the mission. I present you with Exhibit A: Jessica Lynch. Male lives will be lost trying to protect their female comrades. And the people of the US are NOT, based on the Jessica Lynch episode, prepared to treat a female POW the same way they do a man. Very informative read. One that highlights the many negatives of women in combat and the lowering of standards to allow women to become Marines. --Tyr

[Kathianne]

Check this out. Some advice on women in combat from a female veteran
...

She has the experience that reinforces what I've said all along, the numbers of females that are physically able and willing to do so, would be minuscule. It's physiology pure and simple. She additionally makes the points, due to actual experience, that even for the very tiny, (insignificant?) numbers of females that meet both criteria of ability and desire, the actual circumstances of the missions may create additional issues between the sexes serving.

The only way to see this idea actually working in reality would be single sexed units, wonder how that would work out?

[aboutime]

She has the experience that reinforces what I've said all along, the numbers of females that are physically able and willing to do so, would be minuscule. It's physiology pure and simple. She additionally makes the points, due to actual experience, that even for the very tiny, (insignificant?) numbers of females that meet both criteria of ability and desire, the actual circumstances of the missions may create additional issues between the sexes serving.

The only way to see this idea actually working in reality would be single sexed units, wonder how that would work out?


Kathianne. The military would not be permitted to do that. It would be discrimination against women, and make the D.A.D.T. laws invalid. Not to mention how the ACLU would be all over it like FLIES on A COW PATTY.

[WiccanLiberal]

IMO, set the standards and stick to them. If it is determined that certain physical standards are necessary to maintain maximum safety for all individuals in a combat situation, then those standards should not be watered down, period. The point of view should be you are training a marine, or soldier or airman etc, not a male or female. If you are supposed to be looking after your teammates, they need to know you are capable of whatever physical exertion is necessary.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Half fail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://news.yahoo.com/marines-delay-female-fitness-plan-half-fail-203830967--politics.html
Marines delay female fitness plan after half fail

.

Associated Press
By PAULINE JELINEK
18 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — More than half of female Marines in boot camp can't do three pullups, the minimum standard that was supposed to take effect with the new year, prompting the Marine Corps to delay the requirement, part of the process of equalizing physical standards to integrate women into combat jobs.

The delay rekindled sharp debate in the military on the question of whether women have the physical strength for some military jobs, as service branches move toward opening thousands of combat roles to them in 2016.

Although no new timetable has been set on the delayed physical requirement, Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos wants training officials to "continue to gather data and ensure that female Marines are provided with the best opportunity to succeed," Capt. Maureen Krebs, a Marine spokeswoman, said Thursday.

Starting with the new year, all female Marines were supposed to be able to do at least three pullups on their annual physical fitness test and eight for a perfect score. The requirement was tested in 2013 on female recruits at Marine Corps Recruit Depot, Parris Island, S.C., but only 45 percent of women met the minimum, Krebs said.

The Marines had hoped to institute the pullups on the belief that pullups require the muscular strength necessary to perform common military tasks such as scaling a wall, climbing up a rope or lifting and carrying heavy munitions.

Officials felt there wasn't a medical risk to putting the new standard into effect as planned across the service, but that the risk of losing recruits and hurting retention of women already in the service was unacceptably high, she said.

Because the change is being put off, women will be able to choose which test of upper-body strength they will be graded on in their annual physical fitness test. Their choices:

—Pullups, with three the minimum. Three is also the minimum for male Marines, but they need 20 for a perfect rating.




.. View gallery
Women in the US Marines
Private First Class Cristina Fuentes Montenegro, 25, left, shares a moment with Pfc. Julia Carroll, …

—A flexed-arm hang. The minimum is for 15 seconds; women get a perfect score if they last for 70 seconds. Men don't do the hang in their test.

Officials said training for pullups can change a person's strength, while training for the flex-arm hang does little to adapt muscular strength needed for military tasks

The delay on the standard could be another wrinkle in the plan to begin allowing women to serve in jobs previously closed to them such as infantry, armor and artillery units.

The decision to suspend the scheduled pull-up requirement "is a clear indication" that plans to move women into direct ground combat fighting teams will not work, said Elaine Donnelly, president of the conservative Center for Military Readiness and a critic of allowing women into infantry jobs.

"When officials claim that men and women are being trained the same, they are referring to bare minimums, not maximum qualifications that most men can meet but women cannot," Donnelly wrote in an email to The Associated Press. "Awarding gender-normed scores so that women can succeed lowers standards for all. Women will suffer more injuries and resentment they do not deserve, and men will be less prepared for the demands of direct ground combat." This is the part where I get to say to the naysayers, we told you so!! Three damn pull ups, CAN NOT DO EVEN JUST THREE!!!!!!! GOOD GOD ,, HOW DAMN WEAK ARE YOU WHEN YOU CAN NOT EVEN DO THREE LOUSY PULL UPS! Gonna fight ,gonna be a Marine and can not do three puny little pull ups!! Hell, I am almost 60 years old, had a heart attack and high blood pressure and I can do fifteen any day of the week without breaking a sweat!! Chesty Puller has to be rolling in his grave for sure !! --Tyr

[Voted4Reagan]

Equal opportunity in the military requires equal standards.

Few Marines today would enjoy my fathers Marine Corps of the 1950's.

women in combat? Yes.

Pilots? Yes

Riflemen? Snipers? Yes.

Tanks? You Betcha..

On board Navy ships? Certainly

Front Line Marine expeditionary units? No. Not unless they are comparable to men. Marines don't leave people behind.. ... Can a 120lb woman pull a 230lb man out of combat if he's wounded? Can she pick him up and carry him?

I can still carry 100lbs over rolling terrain for 7 to 10 miles and do it in 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 hours.

I have never met a woman that can do the same.

Standards need to be consistent.

[aboutime]

To ALL Member/Veterans of DP.

What we are seeing is the Intentional WUSSIFICATION of our military by our pretend president, and the COWARDS who accompany him across the board, from the JCS to the PENTAGON, and the KISS ASS group left behind...following the PURGE of qualified, experienced members in uniform.

It happened before in the Nineties, and it is happening again.

I learned yesterday. Navy BOOT CAMP is now...a terrible 8 WEEKS!

EIGHT WEEKS? Anyone who honestly believes they have a military...even close to ten years ago.
PLEASE STAND UP...and tell us how much you Love OBAMA.

By the way. I attended Navy Boot Camp, starting May 15, 1964. It ended at graduation. July 15, 1964.
And that was during Vietnam. A totally different kind of war than the WAR on Terror today.