The Jihadist Cleansing of Christianity from Muslim Countries

[Jeff]

Yes the religion of peace was responsible for killing 37 and wounding 57 on Christmas back in 2011 , yes that sounds very peaceful :rolleyes: and yes they are on High alert again this year as Christmas rolls around.



Christians in Muslim countries are awaiting Christmas not with joy, but with trepidation.
Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/12/30/christmas-day-terror-for-christians-in-iraq-say-human-rights-groups/) reported that in Iraq, “Christians are afraid to put up a Christmas tree or other decorations, according to one Christian pastor in Iraq. Such displays of faith in an increasingly extremist nation can bring threats and violence, say human rights groups. Christian churches must be regularly guarded, but congregants are even more on edge during their holiest days.”



So we must keep silent about Muslim persecution of Christians so as to avoid offending the peaceful Muslims in the U.S. with whom we are in dialogue, and who presumably would be offended by a discussion of that persecution even though they ostensibly repudiate and denounce it.

I love it, we don't want to offend the peaceful Muslim , hell they may kill us if we disagree !


http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/robert-spencer/the-jihadist-cleansing-of-christianity-from-the-holy-land/

[tailfins]

That's fewer than die in a single day on US highways. Your math doesn't match your title. Attacking all Muslims for these deaths is like wanting to ban all automobiles because of traffic deaths. Militant Islamists are to Islam what drunk drivers are to motorists. You don't punish ALL motorists for drunk driving unless you're MADD.

[jimnyc]

That's fewer than die in a single day on US highways. Your math doesn't match your title. Attacking all Muslims for these deaths is like wanting to ban all automobiles because of traffic deaths. Militant Islamists are to Islam what drunk drivers are to motorists. You don't punish ALL motorists for drunk driving unless you're MADD.

I don't think it's the amount of deaths, or blaming "all" Muslims, but rather that Christianity is dwindling, and that some people can't celebrate Christmas. In many, many Islamic areas, there are purges of Christians taking place, and in many of those places the Christians face different treatment from the government, and discrimination. So maybe "jihadist" was a wrong word to use in the title, but other than that I think it's somewhat accurate about quite a few areas. Are there areas that are the opposite of this, where Muslims and Christians get along, and where Christians aren't discriminated against? Surely. I'm not saying all - but there are a LOT of places where you may not want to be a Christian, and brag about it, or put up decorations to celebrate, or basically do the same as the Muslims are around you - for fear of disparate treatment - or a hell of a lot worse.

I think the title was inferring that Christianity is dwindling, not that they are out there executing Christians (although that happens too)

[tailfins]

I don't think it's the amount of deaths, or blaming "all" Muslims, but rather that Christianity is dwindling, and that some people can't celebrate Christmas. In many, many Islamic areas, there are purges of Christians taking place, and in many of those places the Christians face different treatment from the government, and discrimination. So maybe "jihadist" was a wrong word to use in the title, but other than that I think it's somewhat accurate about quite a few areas. Are there areas that are the opposite of this, where Muslims and Christians get along, and where Christians aren't discriminated against? Surely. I'm not saying all - but there are a LOT of places where you may not want to be a Christian, and brag about it, or put up decorations to celebrate, or basically do the same as the Muslims are around you - for fear of disparate treatment - or a hell of a lot worse.

I think the title was inferring that Christianity is dwindling, not that they are out there executing Christians (although that happens too)

There will always be evil. This is where it has chosen to hang its hat for the time being. If you read the Bible, you will see that the enemy is not of flesh and blood.


Jeremiah 29:11-14King James Version (KJV)

11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.
12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.
13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the Lord: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the Lord; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.





Ephesians 6:12King James Version (KJV)

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[Gaffer]

I haven't started reading the news today, but I heard yesterday there was a bombing in (I think) iraq. 30 some people killed at a Mass in a church. See the muslims know how to celebrate Christmas too. What's Christmas in the middle east without bloodshed?

[Jeff]

I haven't started reading the news today, but I heard yesterday there was a bombing in (I think) iraq. 30 some people killed at a Mass in a church. See the muslims know how to celebrate Christmas too. What's Christmas in the middle east without bloodshed?


That just shows what a good time is in these area's

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There will always be evil. This is where it has chosen to hang its hat for the time being. If you read the Bible, you will see that the enemy is not of flesh and blood. Yes the bible says that but that spiritual enemy must use man to do evil here. Those demons do not get to just walk around here doing evil , they must find hosts. Islam is giving them about a billion hosts. I firmly believe the slaughter of Christians discussed in the Book of Revelation will be done by Islamists and its very likely that time is not far off IMHO. -TYR

[tailfins]

Yes the bible says that but that spiritual enemy must use man to do evil here. Those demons do not get to just walk around here doing evil , they must find hosts. Islam is giving them about a billion hosts. I firmly believe the slaughter of Christians discussed in the Book of Revelation will be done by Islamists and its very likely that time is not far off IMHO. -TYR

I think the war against militant Islam is winnable. However it is only winnable by choosing the proper targets in a carefully executed, well though out strategy. Wholesale hatred towards a billion people is not a very precise target. It rather decreases the chances of victory.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I think the war against militant Islam is winnable. However it is only winnable by choosing the proper targets in a carefully executed, well though out strategy. Wholesale hatred towards a billion people is not a very precise target. It rather decreases the chances of victory. Information is a greater key. Right now we are told and propagandized into thinking Islam is no threat. Which is insanity and a very dangerous thing. Being unprepared for what is to come will cause great number of deaths and quite likely defeat. Tis why the muslims CAIR PUSH IT BY WAY OF OUR GOVERNMENT!! My posts are primarily for information of those that are asleep or propagandized into believing the muslim/government lies! Me and mine are never going to be unprepared ! THE TRUTH IS THE GREATEST WEAPON MAN SHALL EVER KNOW. Too many that seek to hide it know this all too well... --Tyr

[Drummond]

That's fewer than die in a single day on US highways. Your math doesn't match your title. Attacking all Muslims for these deaths is like wanting to ban all automobiles because of traffic deaths. Militant Islamists are to Islam what drunk drivers are to motorists. You don't punish ALL motorists for drunk driving unless you're MADD.

So tell us. What was the highway death toll on 11th September 2001 ?

How quickly we forget, eh ?

Your argument, in practical terms, essentially says that if Muslims don't put in the proper terrorist effort for a while, they can be forgotten about .. which leads to complacency, which in turn is exploitable by the very enemies you want to forget about. Cue 9/11#2 ?

I say: why tolerate a threat, NEEDLESSLY ?

And also ask yourself .. if 'militant Islam' is such a fringe grouping, so unrepresentative of the 'mainstream', how come it thrives as it does, and in so many locations ? How do they ever manage to keep recruiting ?

[tailfins]

So tell us. What was the highway death toll on 11th September 2001 ?

How quickly we forget, eh ?

Your argument, in practical terms, essentially says that if Muslims don't put in the proper terrorist effort for a while, they can be forgotten about .. which leads to complacency, which in turn is exploitable by the very enemies you want to forget about. Cue 9/11#2 ?

I say: why tolerate a threat, NEEDLESSLY ?

And also ask yourself .. if 'militant Islam' is such a fringe grouping, so unrepresentative of the 'mainstream', how come it thrives as it does, and in so many locations ? How do they ever manage to keep recruiting ?


Any huge undertaking involves persuing the right targets. This unfocused hate has the stench of defeat. There is a systematic way to win this. I'm in favor of a skilled military approach to the problem. Adhering to the founder's principles is the antibody against any threat to freedom. Different threats come and go; the defense of freedom is always the same. Why is it a problem for you to just win this and leave the emotionalism out of it?

To answer the underlined question: You tolerate a threat if going after it distracts from overall victory.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Any huge undertaking involves persuing the right targets. This unfocused hate has the stench of defeat. There is a systematic way to win this. I'm in favor of a skilled military approach to the problem. Adhering to the founder's principles is the antibody against any threat to freedom. Different threats come and go; the defense of freedom is always the same. Why is it a problem for you to just win this and leave the emotionalism out of it?

To answer the underlined question: You tolerate a threat if going after it distracts from overall victory. SINCE WHEN THE HELL HAS INFORMING PEOPLE OF A DIRE THREAT LEAD TO DEFEAT? BEING BLIND SIDED HAS VERY OFTEN LEAD TO DEFEAT BUT BEING AWARE OF THE THREAT GIVES OPPORTUNITY TO PREPARE TO FIGHT TO WIN. Right now our government propagandizes its citizens into believing the threat does not even exist. They do this largely in part to the behest of CAIR and other muslim alliances. Now you show me when ignorance was ever been a plus in war or survival!! Come on , show why teaching uninformed people(future victims) of the reality of the threat is folly. I can wait.-Tyr

[fj1200]

I hear Gandhi is the way to go.

[tailfins]

SINCE WHEN THE HELL HAS INFORMING PEOPLE OF A DIRE THREAT LEAD TO DEFEAT? BEING BLIND SIDED HAS VERY OFTEN LEAD TO DEFEAT BUT BEING AWARE OF THE THREAT GIVES OPPORTUNITY TO PREPARE TO FIGHT TO WIN. Right now our government propagandizes its citizens into believing the threat does not even exist. They do this largely in part to the behest of CAIR and other muslim alliances. Now you show me when ignorance was ever been a plus in war or survival!! Come on , show why teaching uninformed people(future victims) of the reality of the threat is folly. I can wait.-Tyr

Obviously CAIR should be investigated. They are low hanging fruit in the fight against militant Islam. Ignorance to a diversion increases chances of victory.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I hear Gandhi is the way to go. Perhaps you should tell the Mandela idiots that blow his horn like he was a God. I heard a radio advertisement for Mandela the movie. In it they called HIM( no shit now ) , MANDELA THE FIRST BLACK SUPER HERO!"" CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT? SON OF A BITCH WAS A DAMN TERRORIST THAT HELPED MURDER INNOCENT PEOPLE TO ADVANCE HIS CAUSE AND NOW HE IS A SUPER HERO. This is world the leftist, liberals, dems and other assorted scum are building! Calling the murdering bastard a black super hero--the first no less! These GD people have no shame, no honor and no damn sense IMHO! WORTHLESS SCUM THE ENTIRE LOT OF THEM. EVERY DAMN ONE OF THEM NEED A SWIFT KICK IN THEIR SORRY ASS EVERYDAY OF THE WEEK AND TWICE ON SUNDAYS. the first black super hero!!! --:laugh::laugh::laugh:-Tyr
I laughed so hard I almost had a wreck.. Just shows how ffing stupid such scum are.

[logroller]

Christmas trees are of pagan origins, but still not deserving of violence. Btw, didn't we go to iraq to free them from oppression? I'm curious if they could put up Christmas decorations when Saddam and his secular ba'athist government was in power.

[fj1200]

Perhaps you should tell the Mandela idiots that blow his horn like he was a God.

We should have Gandhi'd Saddam's @$$.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

We should have Gandhi'd Saddam's @$$. Are you attempting to equate war BETWEEN TWO NATIONS with terrorism? Rather put the two on the same footing? Saddam murdered tens of thousands of his own people, in case you didn't know he too was a terrorist. A damn very big one IMHO.. Yet our running his sorry ass out of Kuwait was the right thing to do as was our enforcing the cease fire agreement he previously agreed to. Lets not get sidetracked comparing apples and oranges ,ok? -Tyr

[fj1200]

Are you attempting to equate war BETWEEN TWO NATIONS with terrorism? Rather put the two on the same footing? Saddam murdered tens of thousands of his own people, in case you didn't know he too was a terrorist. A damn very big one IMHO.. Yet our running his sorry ass out of Kuwait was the right thing to do as was our enforcing the cease fire agreement he previously agreed to. Lets not get sidetracked comparing apples and oranges ,ok? -Tyr

Nope, just trying to figure out the bright-line rule between who we can declare as a terrorist, read --> subhuman, and those who shall honor with divine intentions.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Nope, just trying to figure out the bright-line rule between who we can declare as a terrorist, read --> subhuman, and those who shall honor with divine intentions. Well, to be fair that is always a very sticky proposition isn't it? I've found a sure fire way of being pretty accurate about it is to always lump the lowlife savage murdering bastards into the terrorist group. Never known a terrorist to be anything but that. Also citing religion as an excuse to murder innocent women and children is a safe bet too. That qualifies one to be a damn coward, terrorist and pardon my specific judgment --a subhuman piece of shit deserving of "
extermination". See Jafar, there I used the word --"extermination" and knew its definition too. :laugh: Every damn terrorist regardless of religion or cause should be "eradicated". Damn, a twofer. ;) --Tyr

[fj1200]

Well, to be fair that is always a very sticky proposition isn't it? I've found a sure fire way of being pretty accurate about it is to always lump the lowlife savage murdering bastards into the terrorist group. Never known a terrorist to be anything but that. Also citing religion as an excuse to murder innocent women and children is a safe bet too. That qualifies one to be a damn coward, terrorist and pardon my specific judgment --a subhuman piece of shit deserving of "
extermination". See Jafar, there I used the word --"extermination" and knew its definition too. :laugh: Every damn terrorist regardless of religion or cause should be "eradicated". Damn, a twofer. ;) --Tyr

Not really as sticky as all that... or shouldn't be. I would think killing innocent women and children is bad no matter the reasoning.

[Drummond]

Not really as sticky as all that... or shouldn't be. I would think killing innocent women and children is bad no matter the reasoning.

Saddam used the tactic of human shields, certainly including innocent women and children, in order to deter attacks. Why ? Because he thought the deterrent would work, obviously.

What does that say for the opposition Saddam had ranged against him ?

Now consider terrorists. What terrorist would ever be deterred by the presence of innocent women and children ? Indeed .. some might even be ENCOURAGED to attack because of their presence.

What can consequently be inferred about their, ahem, 'humanity' ... is surely all too obvious, whether you like that reality, or not.

[logroller]

Saddam used the tactic of human shields, certainly including innocent women and children, in order to deter attacks. Why ? Because he thought the deterrent would work, obviously.

What does that say for the opposition Saddam had ranged against him ?

Now consider terrorists. What terrorist would ever be deterred by the presence of innocent women and children ? Indeed .. some might even be ENCOURAGED to attack because of their presence.

What can consequently be inferred about their, ahem, 'humanity' ... is surely all too obvious, whether you like that reality, or not.
Why did those "innocent" people do so-- Should they not have resisted? That by giving in to saddam and obeying him they were in fact supporting him and thus, not innocent-- same as those in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or some west Palestinians who sit back whilst they know Hamas launches rockets from their neighborhood are not entirely innocent. A sin of omission is still a sin.
In matters of morality, the State doesn't absolve one of wrongdoing-- nationalism =\= moral. Indeed during WWII, stateside, those of Japanese descent, regardless of citizenship were interned for the duration of hostilities; why, were they not innocent? Alas, during desperate times....

They were forced to evacuate their homes and leave their jobs; in some cases family members were separated and put into different camps. President Roosevelt himself called the 10 facilities "concentration camps."

Some Japanese Americans died in the camps due to inadequate medical care and the emotional stresses they encountered. Several were killed by military guards posted for allegedly resisting orders.


At the time, Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage. However, it was later documented that "our government had in its possession proof that not one Japanese American, citizen or not, had engaged in espionage, not one had committed any act of sabotage." (Michi Weglyn, 1976).


Rather, the causes for this unprecedented action in American history, according to the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians, "were motivated largely by racial prejudice, wartime hysteria, and a failure of political leadership." http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/
I suppose that since we didn't strap them on the sides of bombs its a-ok. :rolleyes:

[logroller]

Are you attempting to equate war BETWEEN TWO NATIONS with terrorism? Rather put the two on the same footing? Saddam murdered tens of thousands of his own people, in case you didn't know he too was a terrorist. A damn very big one IMHO.. Yet our running his sorry ass out of Kuwait was the right thing to do as was our enforcing the cease fire agreement he previously agreed to. Lets not get sidetracked comparing apples and oranges ,ok? -Tyr
Drummond submitted the following definition of terrorism


ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.




so if a State, such as saddam's Iraq makes a law declaring such actions lawful, how is it terrorism? If Iran declares war upon Israel, does it make it lawful as well, two nations and all....or the Nation of Islam... Lawful then, "nations" and whatnot? Are you saying that these organizations and their agents do NOT commit terrorist acts by virtue of their nationhood?

[Drummond]

Why did those "innocent" people do so-- Should they not have resisted? That by giving in to saddam and obeying him they were in fact supporting him and thus, not innocent--

This just has to be a joke. What are you saying ... that all the human shields kept captive were there WILLINGLY ??

Anyone standing in a bank, while it's being robbed, afraid of being killed if resistance is offered .. they SUPPORT THE ROBBERS, if they don't risk being shot to death ? It's just the same. Being a victim to coercion, at gunpoint, yet, is DIFFERENT to offering SUPPORT to those coercing !!!


same as those in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki or some west Palestinians who sit back whilst they know Hamas launches rockets from their neighborhood are not entirely innocent. A sin of omission is still a sin.

They all sin if they have guns pointed at them, and don't sacrifice their lives uselessly ?

Tell me. In Hitler's concentration camps, did the captive Jews SUPPORT THEIR OWN ANNIHILATION, by not fighting back when some were taken to be gassed ?

Logroller ... yours, said he putting it very diplomatically, is an extremely 'strange' logic, divorced as it is from sheer reality.

[Drummond]

Drummond submitted the following definition of terrorism

so if a State, such as saddam's Iraq makes a law declaring such actions lawful, how is it terrorism? If Iran declares war upon Israel, does it make it lawful as well, two nations and all....or the Nation of Islam... Lawful then, "nations" and whatnot? Are you saying that these organizations and their agents do NOT commit terrorist acts by virtue of their nationhood?

Ever heard of INTERNATIONAL law ? Some nations respect it. Others do not. How was it that the United Nations ever got involved in Gulf War #1 ?

Besides, wars between nations involve military tactical decisions. Terrorists are too busy killing innocents, AND SETTING OUT TO DO SO, AS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THEIR ACTIONS, to care.

[revelarts]

Ever heard of INTERNATIONAL law ? Some nations respect it. Others do not. How was it that the United Nations ever got involved in Gulf War #1 ?

Besides, wars between nations involve military tactical decisions. Terrorists are too busy killing innocents, AND SETTING OUT TO DO SO, AS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THEIR ACTIONS, to care.

the U.S and UK have been using International law and treaties to cover as much of our aggressions and killing as possible, but often we haven't gotten it, i.e. drone strikes in foreign countries, torture, kidnapping...
When this is pointed out folk like yourself don't seem to have a problem with DISREGARDING international law for what you considered jiha.. I mean the greater good and safety of the the west from the inhuman infide... I mean terrorist.

But we've done this before, there's a clear double standard, but many can't bring themselves to imagine that ANY harm done to Muslims/Terrorist is worth mentioning, let alone considered a crime.

[revelarts]

On the flip side concerning the topic of the thread.
While I think Violent jihadist terrorist are in the minority exporting their brand of Islam around the world. i DO think that, despite many Muslims obvious ability to live at peace with Christians and other faiths in most places around the world, that they would like to make all other religions illegal when and where they hold sway.

It's incredible to me that our good friends the Saudi's do not allow even ONE Church in Saudi Arabia. period. And Christianity is basically illegal and the highest Muslim leaders there want the same in other countries in the region.
Syria wasn't like that under Assad, but if the Sauds, the brotherhood and AQ have it's way it will be.

our friends in Saudi Arabia

Quote:

<tbody>
..All citizens must adhere to Islam, and conversion to another religion is punishable by death. Public Christian worship is forbidden; worshippers risk imprisonment, lashing, deportation and torture. Evangelizing Muslims and distributing non-Islamic materials is illegal. Muslims who convert to Christianity risk being subjected to honor killings, and foreign Christian workers have been exposed to abuse from employers.

....
Sheikh Abdul-Aziz ibn Abdullah, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia, created an implication with his assertion. Nettleton explains, "This was in a meeting with Kuwaiti officials who came to Saudi Arabia. They were asking this Islamic official, ‘What should we do about the churches?' His statement was, ‘There should be no Christian churches on the Arabian Peninsula.'"

According to the report, the delegation wanted to confirm Shariah's position on churches. Essentially, Nettleton says, "If you have churches in Kuwait, which they do, they should be destroyed. The interesting thing about this is that there are no churches in Saudi Arabia. There are no church buildings that are allowed to exist there. So he clearly wasn't talking only for his own country. He was trying to export this ideology to the surrounding countries."

This proclamation could affect churches in Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates. Nettleton observes that "in most of these countries, we're not talking about a lot of churches; we're talking about a few that are allowed to exist primarily to serve foreigners that are living in that country." ...

</tbody>

Saudi Arabia Declares Destruction of All Churches in Region (http://www.charismanews.com/world/38896-saudi-arabia-declares-destruction-of-all-churches-in-region)

I'd really like to hear what jafar has to say about this.
While i deeply appreciate his sincere Christmas wish. If i lived in Saudi Arabia I could not even celebrate it, where his religion is the basis of the law.
there's a clear contradiction here.
the fact that there are so few churches in the region of the world where Islam holds the greatest powers shows me that Islam is not really interested in living at peace with Christians and "allowing" us to pay a tax (:rolleyes:) to worship freely. How is it that Jafar and many other western Muslims read the Koran one way, But the Head Muslims living next to Mecca can't see it?

this is not like, G Bush/Obama saying he's a Christian and then drones the crap outta people. This is like the Head of the Southern Baptist and/or Head Cardinal of Rome saying all mosques should be removed from America and Europe.
Is this just a "cultural" reading, a "relio-political" mistranslation or text that just apply to the M.E.?
More importantly do the majority of the rank and file Muslims AGREE with the idea? From the random persecutions on ground level in those countries I get the impression that they do.
And as much as Jafar and others like him dislike the "bad press" Muslims get. Until I see an OPENNESS in the Mid-East to Christian Churches and open worship, I'm NOT going to be open to inviting a lot of Muslims to settle in my country. Frankly I like to think of myself as a very tolerant person and wish the best for everyone, but i'm not suicidal. If a quotas was put on Muslim immigration and citizenship I'd be for it. We do have immigration quotas for other criteria. I'd hate it but it makes sense. That may not seem fair, but having seen what a majority Muslim community does. Makes it CLEAR to me that they are NOT tolerant. And I have NO desire to 1st pay a tax to worship as i please and then have my church burned down or closed for good because Allah ( the same God right?) doesn't like it anymore.

If Jafar or someone can give me examples of majority Muslims communities and countries that are consistently treating Christians and others as well as we treat Muslims in the U.S.. I might change my position. I'd LOVE to see examples of it. Until then, nope.

[revelarts]

Somalia bans Christmas celebrations (http://www.midnimo.com/2013/12/26/somalia-somalia-bans-christmas-celebrations/)

Quote:

<tbody>
The Somali Government has banned celebration of Christian festivities in the country.

A directive released on Tuesday by the Ministry of Justice and Religious Affairs stated that no Christian festivities could be held in Somalia.

The Director General of the ministry, Sheikh Mohamed Khayrow Aden, and the Director of the Religious Matters, Sheikh Ali Sheikh Mohamud alias Sheikh Ali Dhere, held a press conference in the capital Mogadishu, to make the announcement.

The ban came just hours before Christmas Day, when Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, their spiritual saviour.

“We alert fellow Muslims in Somalia that some festivities to mark Christian Days will take place around the world in this week,” said Sheikh Ali Dhere during the press conference, adding: “It is prohibited to celebrate those days in this country.”

Mr Aden, on his part, stated that all security and law enforcement agencies had been instructed to counter any such celebrations.


</tbody>


Somalia barley has a gov't. but they take the time to Ban Christmas celebrations.
Again where is Islamic tolerance of other religions? Where's the Christian "tax".
Shouldn't the 'the ministry of Justice and religious affairs" know about the tax Christians are suppose to pay to be able to worship as they please?
Will security and law enforment rebel against the law because it's against Islam? Or will they enforce it? Will Muslims neighbors support and cover for Christians or will they report "illegal" Christian worship?
If i were living in Somalia I'd LIKE TO hope for the best, but i'd be fool to think there's no chance for serious problems this Christmas and everyday going forward.

[logroller]

This just has to be a joke. What are you saying ... that all the human shields kept captive were there WILLINGLY ??

Anyone standing in a bank, while it's being robbed, afraid of being killed if resistance is offered .. they SUPPORT THE ROBBERS, if they don't risk being shot to death ? It's just the same. Being a victim to coercion, at gunpoint, yet, is DIFFERENT to offering SUPPORT to those coercing !!!



They all sin if they have guns pointed at them, and don't sacrifice their lives uselessly ?

Tell me. In Hitler's concentration camps, did the captive Jews SUPPORT THEIR OWN ANNIHILATION, by not fighting back when some were taken to be gassed ?

Logroller ... yours, said he putting it very diplomatically, is an extremely 'strange' logic, divorced as it is from sheer reality.
Unless they're forcibly restrained, then yes they do so willingly. Whether one is coerced is merely a matter of the contexts regarding the alternatives, but it's still a choice. THAT IS REALITY, whether you choose to accept it or not. Jesus willingly submitted to be sacrificed for others; surely he could have denied that he was the Son of God and been released but He did not, by choice. Would it were that there was another way to fulfill the prophecy while maintaining His commitment to the His principles, would He not have done so?

If faced with death or losing the money in my pocket, I'd choose life; were it being interned in a camp and/or used as human shield or slave labor to support my oppressor, I'd risk dying to live free. Live free or die trying. Freedom and salvation are principles worth dying and killing for IMO. Would you say the same?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

the U.S and UK have been using International law and treaties to cover as much of our aggressions and killing as possible, but often we haven't gotten it, i.e. drone strikes in foreign countries, torture, kidnapping...
When this is pointed out folk like yourself don't seem to have a problem with DISREGARDING international law for what you considered jiha.. I mean the greater good and safety of the the west from the inhuman infide... I mean terrorist.

But we've done this before, there's a clear double standard, but many can't bring themselves to imagine that ANY harm done to Muslims/Terrorist is worth mentioning, let alone considered a crime.Sorry Rev but its not that cut and dry. Sure USA has done wrong in the past name any nation, any government that hasn't! So this nation's wrongs do not justify other groups or nations use of terrorism and outright murder/genocide. Any wrongs done to muslims any no worse than wrongs done to any other group, especially so since Islam's purpose is not PEACE(never has been) BUT WAR AND enslavement of all mankind. How about we not ignore that evil reality in our zeal to give them so sort of justification???? A man sworn to murder me and my family has no leg to stand on basing it upon we worship in a different way than he does! Certainly gets no further erroneous justification if I choose to insult him for his savage and insane murdering beliefs. What your statement seems to miss is that they want to kill us regardless of what we do or say and would do so if we'd never set foot over there or never supported Israel at all. Here let me post this again for al to actually see or just blindly ,stupidly ignore as so many do! Islam commands that every human on earth convert to Islam or be enslaved and/or murdered . There is no exception to that! Just because they have not the means(yet) to accomplish that does not mean its not the sole purpose for their worship and being. Now ask yourself who or what else has a goal to murder all mankind? Bingo if you came up with Satan.. 2=2 ALWAYS EQUALS 4. Islam's Allah is Satan himself.. Do I care that the truth offends them.. NO . Am I scared of them myself. NO. WILL THEY GET MORE THAN THEY EVER BARGAINED FOR IF THEY TRY TO ATTACK ME? Hell yes. In fact, I know if I live long enough they will seek me out to murder me but that will not stop me presenting the truth about their evil and murdering ways! Myself, I spit on all Americans that have chosen to forget 9-11!!! Appeasement and complacency will doom this nation just as sure a water is wet.... And in that doom many tens of millions of American infidels will be executed and all our children will either die or be enslaved. Just appease them into power and watch how Hitler's extermination camps look like it was just child's play. These people have no soul, no conscience and no mercy instead just blind and murdering obedience to the Satan they call Allah. All ignorant of the genocide their conquering spread of power and influence contained at their rise of their power 1400 years ago should get of their lazy asses and try to learn something. Islam will tell you if you join it's cult that it hasn't changed it's worship/goal one damn iota since Moham's time ! Tyr

[fj1200]

Saddam used the tactic of human shields, certainly including innocent women and children, in order to deter attacks. Why ? Because he thought the deterrent would work, obviously.

What does that say for the opposition Saddam had ranged against him ?

Now consider terrorists. What terrorist would ever be deterred by the presence of innocent women and children ? Indeed .. some might even be ENCOURAGED to attack because of their presence.

What can consequently be inferred about their, ahem, 'humanity' ... is surely all too obvious, whether you like that reality, or not.

Why? Because he was dirt-bag, tyrannical dictator. Consider terrorists? Do you mean all of those who've targeted innocents?


In matters of morality, the State doesn't absolve one of wrongdoing-- nationalism =\= moral.

That's crazy talk.


Ever heard of INTERNATIONAL law ? Some nations respect it. Others do not.

:laugh: You're firmly in the "do not" camp.

[jafar00]

Saudi Arabia Declares Destruction of All Churches in Region (http://www.charismanews.com/world/38896-saudi-arabia-declares-destruction-of-all-churches-in-region)

I'd really like to hear what jafar has to say about this.
While i deeply appreciate his sincere Christmas wish. If i lived in Saudi Arabia I could not even celebrate it, where his religion is the basis of the law.
there's a clear contradiction here.
the fact that there are so few churches in the region of the world where Islam holds the greatest powers shows me that Islam is not really interested in living at peace with Christians and "allowing" us to pay a tax (:rolleyes:) to worship freely. How is it that Jafar and many other western Muslims read the Koran one way, But the Head Muslims living next to Mecca can't see it?


The regime in "Saudi" Arabia is a tyrannical dictatorship. Most Muslims know how deviant they are and I am with you on the issue of destroying Churches.

This is the opinion of the head Wahhabi, Abdul Aziz alone and was rightly condemned by other religious leaders (http://www.todayszaman.com/news-276525-turkeys-top-muslim-cleric-slams-saudi-mufti-over-his-call-to-destroy-churches.html).

Also, the following verse from the Qur'aan forbids the destruction of Churches and Synagogues.

For, if God had not enabled people to defend themselves against one another, all] monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques - in [all of] which Gods name is abundantly extolled - would surely have been destroyed [ere now]. (22:40)

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The regime in "Saudi" Arabia is a tyrannical dictatorship. Most Muslims know how deviant they are and I am with you on the issue of destroying Churches.

This is the opinion of the head Wahhabi, Abdul Aziz alone and was rightly condemned by other religious leaders (http://www.todayszaman.com/news-276525-turkeys-top-muslim-cleric-slams-saudi-mufti-over-his-call-to-destroy-churches.html).

Also, the following verse from the Qur'aan forbids the destruction of Churches and Synagogues.

For, if God had not enabled people to defend themselves against one another, all] monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques - in [all of] which Gods name is abundantly extolled - would surely have been destroyed [ere now]. (22:40)
All that does is justify and confirm that men-followers of Allah should defend by action against those that destroy such places of worship. So who is ever so greatly destroying such places in the ME? Answer is muslims are. They destroy each others (different sects) mosques and they both destroy Christian and Jewish holy places. Here is a better link with more information on that verse. --Tyr
http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/22/..%5C22%5C40% 5Cdefault.htm

Arabic الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا مِن دِيَارِهِم بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلَّا أَن يَقُولُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُم بِبَعْضٍ لَّهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا وَلَيَنصُرَنَّ اللَّهُ مَن يَنصُرُهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ zoom
Transliteration Allatheena okhrijoo min diyarihim bighayri haqqin illa an yaqooloo rabbuna Allahu walawla dafAAu Allahi alnnasa baAAdahum bibaAAdin lahuddimat sawamiAAu wabiyaAAun wasalawatun wamasajidu yuthkaru feeha ismu Allahi katheeran walayansuranna Allahu man yansuruhu inna Allaha laqawiyyun AAazeezun zoom

Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning


Muhammad Asad those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying. “Our Sustainer is God!” For, if God had not enabled people to defend themselves against one another, all] monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques - in [all of] which Gods name is abundantly extolled - would surely have been destroyed [ere now]. And God will most certainly succour him who succours His cause: for, verily, God is most powerful, almighty, zoom
M. M. Pickthall Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said: Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty - zoom
Shakir Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty. zoom
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will). zoom
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "our Lord is God". Did not God check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monaster ies, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of God is commemorated in abundant measure. God will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily God is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will). zoom
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar those who were driven out from their abodes without right because they say: Our Lord is God! If not for God driving back humanity, some by some other, cloisters would be demolished and churches and synagogues and mosques in which is remembered in it the Name of God frequently. Truly, God will help whoever helps Him. Truly, God is Strong, Almighty. zoom
Wahiduddin Khan they are those who have been driven out of their homes unjustly, only because they said, Our Lord is God. If God did not repel the aggression of some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of God is much invoked, would surely be destroyed. God will surely help him who helps His causeGod is indeed powerful and mighty. zoom
T.B.Irving any who have been driven from their homes unjustly, merely because they say: "Our Lord is God [Alone]." If it were not because God repels some men by means of others, cloisters, churches, synagogues and mosques where God´s name is mentioned frequently would have been demolished. God supports anyone who supports Him-God is Strong, Powerful - zoom
[Al-Muntakhab] They -the Muslims- were unjustly ousted from their homes for no reason other than expressing their thoughts in words, thus: "Our Allah is the Creator of the whole and of all in all". And were it not that Allah represses some people by others, monasteries, churches, synagogues oratories and mosques, where He is much remembered and His glorious attributes extolled would have been demolished and reduced to a useless form. But Allah does indeed help those whose purpose is to serve Him and advance His cause; Allah is indeed Qadirun and Azizun (Almighty). zoom
[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said: "Our Lord is God!" And if it were not for mankind being pitted against one another, then many monasteries, synagogues, contact-methods, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble. zoom
Abdel Haleem those who have been driven unjustly from their homes only for saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ If God did not repel some people by means of others, many monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where God’s name is much invoked, would have been destroyed. God is sure to help those who help His cause- God is strong and mighty- zoom
Abdul Majid Daryabadi Those who have been driven forth from their abodes without justice, except because they say: our Lord is Allah. And were it not for Allah's repelling of someby means of others, cloisters and churches, synogogues and mosques wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would have been pulled down. Surely Allah shall succour whosoever succoureth Him; verily Allah is strong, Mighty zoom
Ahmed Ali Who were driven away from their homes for no other reason than they said: "Our Lord is God." And if God had not restrained some men through some others, monastries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where the name of God is honoured most, would have been razed. God will surely help those who help Him, -- verily God is all-powerful and all-mighty, -- zoom
Aisha Bewley those who were expelled from their homes without any right, merely for saying, ´Our Lord is Allah´ (if Allah had not driven some people back by means of others, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, where Allah´s name is mentioned much, would have been pulled down and destroyed. Allah will certainly help those who help Him — Allah is All-Strong, Almighty), zoom
Ali Ünal Those who have been driven from their homeland against all right, for no other reason than that they say, "Our Lord is God." Were it not for God’s repelling some people by means of others, monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques, where God is regularly worshipped and His Name is much mentioned, would surely have been pulled down (with the result that God is no longer worshipped and the earth becomes uninhabitable). God most certainly helps whoever helps His cause. Surely, God is All-Strong, All-Glorious with irresistible might. zoom
Ali Quli Qara'i —Those who were expelled from their homes unjustly, only because they said, ‘Allah is our Lord.’ Had not Allah repulsed the people from one another, ruin would have befallen the monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s Name is mentioned greatly. Allah will surely help those who help Him. Indeed Allah is all-strong, all-mighty. zoom
Hamid S. Aziz Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said, "Our Lord is Allah;" - for were it not for Allah repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is zoom
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali (Those) who have been driven out of their homes untruthfully (i.e., without right) except that they say, "Our Lord is Allah." And had it not been the repelling by Allah of mankind, some by the means of others, (Literally: some by means of some others) indeed there would have been completely demolished hermitages, and churches, and oratories, and mosques, wherein The Name of Allah is much mentioned. And indeed Allah will definitely give victory to whomever vindicates Him. Surely Allah is indeed Ever-Powerful, Ever-Mighty. zoom
Muhammad Sarwar to those who were unjustly expelled from their homes only because they said, "God is our Lord." Had it not been for God's repelling some people through the might of the others, the monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which God is very often worshipped would have been utterly destroyed. God shall certainly help those who help Him. He is All-powerful and Majestic. zoom
Muhammad Taqi Usmani (They are) the ones who were expelled from their homes without any just reason, except that they say .Our Lord is Allah. Had Allah not been repelling some people by means of some others, the monasteries, the churches, the synagogues and the mosques where Allah‘s name is abundantly recited would have been demolished. Allah will definitely help those who help Him (by defending the religion prescribed by Him.) Surely Allah is Powerful, Mighty. zoom
Shabbir Ahmed Those who have been evicted from their homes unjustly, for no reason other than saying, "Our Lord is Allah!" For, if Allah had not enabled people to defend themselves against one another, monasteries, and churches, and synagogues, and masjids, where the Name of Allah is oft mentioned, would surely have been destroyed. And Allah will certainly help those who help Him. For, Allah is Mighty, Powerful. zoom
Syed Vickar Ahamed Those who have been expelled from their homes (unjustly) in defiance of right— (For no reason) except that they say, "Our Lord is Allah." Did Allah not stop one set of people by means of another, for sure, there have been destroyed, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, where the Name of Allah is praised most often. Allah will surely help those who support (His) cause— Because truly, Allah is Full of Strength (Qhavi), exalted in Might (Aziz). zoom
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might. zoom
Farook Malik - those who have been unjustly expelled from their homes only because they said, "Our Lord is Allah." Had not Allah repelled some people by the might of others, the monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which Allah’s praise is daily celebra zoom
Dr. Munir Munshey They have been driven out of their homes for no other reason except that they say, "Allah is our Lord!" Allah causes the fall of different people _ each by another. Otherwise, many places of worship _ like the monasteries, the temples, the churches and the mosques where Allah´s name is chanted a lot _ would be demolished. Allah will most definitely help those who help His cause. Of course, Allah is the Strongest and the most Powerful. zoom
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri They are those who were unjustly expelled from their homes simply because they said: ‘Our Lord is Allah (i.e., they refused to accept the evil rule).’ And had Allah not been repelling one class of human society by the other (through progressive struggle and persistent toil), the cloisters, synagogues, churches and mosques (i.e., religious centres and places of worship of all religions) would have been ruined where Allah’s Name is abundantly commemorated. And whoever helps (the Din [Religion] of) Allah, Allah surely helps him. Allah is indeed All-Powerfull, Ever-Dominant (over all i.e., the survival of good is possible only through the process of contradiction and conflict between good and evil). zoom
Dr. Kamal Omar Those who have been expelled from their homes without reason except that they say: “Our Nourisher-Sustainer is Allah.” And if there had not been removal of people by Allah — some of them by some (others), surely would have been pulled down the ‘short-stay reform centres’, and ‘places meant for signing contracts, covenants and swearing oaths’, and the Salat-congregations and the mosques wherein the Name of Allah is discussed exceedingly. Verily, Allah helps that who helps Him (through striving hard in His Cause). Truly Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty. zoom
Talal A. Itani (new translation) Those who were unjustly evicted from their homes, merely for saying, 'Our Lord is God.' Were it not that God repels people by means of others: monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques—where the name of God is mentioned much—would have been demolished. God supports whoever supports Him. God is Strong and Mighty. zoom
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition) Those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right, for no reason except that they say, “Our Guardian Evolver is God.” If God did not check one group of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and masjids, in which the name of God is commemorated in abundant measure. God will certainly aid those who aid Him, for indeed God is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might. zoom
Maududi those who were unjustly expelled from their homes for no other reason than their saying: "Allah is Our Lord." If Allah were not to repel some through others, monasteries and churches and synagogues and mosques wherein the name of Allah is much mentioned, would certainly have been pulled down. Allah will most certainly help those who will help Him. Verily Allah is Immensely Strong, Overwhelmingly Mighty. zoom
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition) The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said: "Our Lord is God!" And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and contact prayers, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.

Islamists use that verse to justify doing far more than just defending holy places. They use it to justify destroying opposing religions and their holy places. -Tyr

[jafar00]

Islamists use that verse to justify doing far more than just defending holy places. They use it to justify destroying opposing religions and their holy places. -Tyr

Declaring an opposite and incorrect meaning to a verse doesn't make it right.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Declaring an opposite and incorrect meaning to a verse doesn't make it right. Look Jafar, I believe you are a true believer and its very likely you do not see clearly what is going on and how the prime goal of Islam is wrong. Blinded by faith they call it. I did not declare an opposite meaning . I made a statement that others use it for far more than what you say it means and clearly they do IMHO.--Tyr

[jafar00]

Look Jafar, I believe you are a true believer and its very likely you do not see clearly what is going on and how the prime goal of Islam is wrong. Blinded by faith they call it. I did not declare an opposite meaning . I made a statement that others use it for far more than what you say it means and clearly they do IMHO.--Tyr

Thanks but the comment was not just aimed at you. It's for anyone who tries to twist a verse to an opposite or plain incorrect meaning to excuse themselves from performing a heinous crime.