Cold Case: JFK

[fj1200]

Cold Case JFK
The 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy is re-investigated using modern technology and contemporary scientific techniques. Included: ballistics experts reconstruct the shooting in a test of the "single bullet theory."

I don't have a good link but watched Cold Case: JFK on NOVA tonight. Forensically speaking the single-bullet theory holds up and debunks the possibility of a grassy knoll shooter. It mostly backs up the Warren Commission and criticizes the conclusions of the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Very interesting was the complete bungling of the autopsy and the indepth discussion of the Carcano rifle and bullet.

[revelarts]

Single Bullet theory is BS.

the Bullet found on the stretcher in parkland hospital was Pristine. But the Dr.s and Nurses at the Hospital say they pulled bullet fragments from Connely Wrist and the rest of it from his thigh. couldn't have been on the stretcher.

and the Audio recording from the police radio definitively shows more shots that alleged by Warren.

And you've got 50+ witnesses that say shots were fired from the knoll.

And you've got most of the people who have tried to reproduce the shot LOH was suppose to have fired saying they could not do it. for multiple reason starting with the crappy rifle with slow bolt action. But somehow LOH did it nonchalantly. since he was seen in a lower floor lunch room before and after the the murder.

And you have the later House Select Committee on Assassination, congressional investigation concluding there was a more people involved.

to name a few Items...

oldy but goody
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHaMxA5w4_Y

well done modern summery
<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/65N3eP2yvbQ?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3dslC2FAReg?feature=player_embedded" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>

[revelarts]

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/xnlhX5wkDWI?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[fj1200]

Single Bullet theory is BS.

the Bullet found on the stretcher in parkland hospital was Pristine. But the Dr.s and Nurses at the Hospital say they pulled bullet fragments from Connely Wrist and the rest of it from his thigh. couldn't have been on the stretcher.

and the Audio recording from the police radio definitively shows more shots that alleged by Warren.

And you've got 50+ witnesses that say shots were fired from the knoll.

And you've got most of the people who have tried to reproduce the shot LOH was suppose to have fired saying they could not do it. for multiple reason starting with the crappy rifle with slow bolt action. But somehow LOH did it nonchalantly. since he was seen in a lower floor lunch room before and after the the murder.

And you have the later House Select Committee on Assassination, congressional investigation concluding there was a more people involved.

Ballistics test show that the bullet could go through 3 ft of wood and look pristine, it also showed that after going through flesh (ballistics gel) that it comes out in a yaw which corresponds to the entry would on Connely. The bullet also wasn't "pristine," it was squashed to some extent which would explain bullet fragments found in the wounds.

The audio was far from definitive and three shots echoing around Dealey Plaza would mislead one to think that they heard more shots let alone where they came from; there were plenty of witnesses who had no idea where they might have heard shots from. The forensics evidence from reviewing as much of the original information as possible, x-rays, clothes, autopsy photos, etc. doesn't support the kill shot coming from the front anyway.

The House Select committee was fairly well wrong, misreading the evidence will lead to false conclusions.

[revelarts]

Ballistics test show that the bullet could go through 3 ft of wood and look pristine, it also showed that after going through flesh (ballistics gel) that it comes out in a yaw which corresponds to the entry would on Connely. The bullet also wasn't "pristine," it was squashed to some extent which would explain bullet fragments found in the wounds.

The audio was far from definitive and three shots echoing around Dealey Plaza would mislead one to think that they heard more shots let alone where they came from; there were plenty of witnesses who had no idea where they might have heard shots from. The forensics evidence from reviewing as much of the original information as possible, x-rays, clothes, autopsy photos, etc. doesn't support the kill shot coming from the front anyway.

The House Select committee was fairly well wrong, misreading the evidence will lead to false conclusions.

the bullet fragments added up to more than the the extremely small defects of the the bullet.
And again the Bullet was still in Conely's thigh when it was supposedly found on the stretcher.
so that bullet could NOT be the real bullet.

the audio was rigorously reviewed by experts that of course took into account echos that's basic, and the echos were counted and ruled out, for the extra shots.

Do you really want to go into the problems with the x-rays and autopsy photos? it's horrific what was done and redone lost and changed there.

the House select Committee was fairly well right. the Warren commission was a cover up.

[fj1200]

the bullet fragments added up to more than the the extremely small defects of the the bullet.
And again the Bullet was still in Conely's thigh when it was supposedly found on the stretcher.
so that bullet could NOT be the real bullet.

the audio was rigorously reviewed by experts that of course took into account echos that's basic, and the echos were counted and ruled out, for the extra shots.

Do you really want to go into the problems with the x-rays and autopsy photos? it's horrific what was done and redone lost and changed there.

the House select Committee was fairly well right. the Warren commission was a cover up.

I don't recall what they said about the bullet in the stretcher and bullets apparently will generate two sound waves, one for the supersonic bullet and one for the muzzle blast.

I already stated that there were plenty of problems but modern forensics can make up much for much of what was done wrong 50 years ago. And no, I don't really want to watch any videos about x-rays and photos. I fully grant you that you can find alternative conclusions to anything that you want. :poke:

[revelarts]

I don't recall what they said about the bullet in the stretcher and bullets apparently will generate two sound waves, one for the supersonic bullet and one for the muzzle blast.

I already stated that there were plenty of problems but modern forensics can make up much for much of what was done wrong 50 years ago. And no, I don't really want to watch any videos about x-rays and photos. I fully grant you that you can find alternative conclusions to anything that you want. :poke:

Sure i could find alternative versions of plenty stories if i just want to find stories. but what we're talking about are here are things that have real forensic weight one way or the others.

and as i often say let look at all of the evidence. not just what favors one side or the others.
To me the more i looked at the JFK killing the more obvious it becomes that the commission covered up lots of contrary evidence. you and other may say they were doing it "for the good of the country" but to me once someone lies to me i want to know what else was a lie.
and the deeper you dig the smeller it gets.

so it's fine to wipe our hands and say the gov't report tells the basic story and not poke around at the loose ends and bend over backwards to believe everything that is at the bleeding edge of physical creditability and gloss over fudged docs, film, and other evidence added to altered and ignored testimonies just because ..well the warren story basically hold up.

But it bugs me. so I toss out the few monkey wrench I'm aware of into the conversation.
you should take a look at some of the vids i posted. interesting to say the least.

[Arbo]

I'm not much for conspiracy stuff, I prefer occams razor and the reality that most conspiracies would need to involve far too many people to ever truly hide anything. Perhaps the official story was wrong, but at this point, decades later, does it matter?

[revelarts]

I'm not much for conspiracy stuff, I prefer occams razor and the reality that most conspiracies would need to involve far too many people to ever truly hide anything. Perhaps the official story was wrong, but at this point, decades later, does it matter?

Occam's Razor
It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected.

sure, OK we want to get there finally but,
try this , you walk into a room there's a 7 year old boy on the floor with a half eaten cookie in his hand and a ripped box of half finished chocolate chip and nuts in front of him on the table.
the simple explanation is obvious.
the kid ate the cookies. "Cold Case"" case Closed" no need for further investigation. no more details..

but the kid say it wasn't him, he just got there too.

the older brother comes downstairs an says the kid just got out of the toilet, evidenced by the smell and he just heard the flush.
the older sister comes in from outside of and ask why the dog is puking chocolate and nuts all over the porch.

Do we lean to Occam's razor or allow the more complex evidence take us where it leads. and use the razor going forward based on all the evidence?

I like to rely on the preponderance of the evidence to come to conclusions.

as far as people being able to hide anything, How could we every come to a reasonable conclusion of what various groups are able to hide? If they hide it we don't know it. if they don't we do.
it's not a question i try answer 1st as to waht might have happened. assuming the answer to that precludes even looking any where but but where told.
but hey that's good enough "evidence" for some people. the General incredulity of such a thing. it Could never happen here tut tut.

Why is it important?
1. it removes the blinders of incredulity from the general public to the idea that some in our gov't are capable of murdering elected officials to get their way and cover it up.
1b. showing the corruption of the system.
2. no statute of limitations on murder.
3. might shed light on parts of gov't that needs to be shut down.
4. open the door to related and similar investigations.
that's 4 off the top of my head

[Arbo]

as far as people being able to hide anything, How could we every come to a reasonable conclusion of what various groups are able to hide? If they hide it we don't know it. if they don't we do.

The problem is the larger the group needed to hide or coverup, the less likely they can pull it off. There will always be someone that either has a conscious or see's the potential fame/wealth that could come from outing a massive coverup. Mix that together with the reality that most people in government aren't smart enough to pull off the lies, and the odds of a grand conspiracy drop off dramatically.



1. it removes the blinders of incredulity from the general public to the idea that some in our gov't are capable of murdering elected officials to get their way and cover it up.
1b. showing the corruption of the system.

I'm pretty sure most people already understand there is massive corruption and believes those in government capable of #1.

[revelarts]

The problem is the larger the group needed to hide or coverup, the less likely they can pull it off. There will always be someone that either has a conscious or see's the potential fame/wealth that could come from outing a massive coverup. Mix that together with the reality that most people in government aren't smart enough to pull off the lies, and the odds of a grand conspiracy drop off dramatically.


often people who say things like that dismiss all of the dead wittiness and dead insiders in JFK case.
there's a dead navy photogrpher, dead mafia people and many others.
Some of those that haven't been kill some say they've been threatened ,others have loss their jobs and or been smeared -looking for fame and fortune- that comes with exposing secret assassins.

Somehow those people don't count. Just coincidence tut tut. Others that may know more see those people and the fame and fortune doesn't look as good as you paint it.

As far a smart enough. sure there's plenty of dummies and in gov't that can't do decent work. but there are jobs that get done. the military has caldestinally killed people, so has the cia and often in secret. so has the Mob. You don't need everyone on gov't in on it or a whole dept or a brigade just few well place people.

what u seem to be doing is brushing the whole idea aside based on some broad assumptions,
"somebody would have talked" well a lot of people have talked but some people don't believe them.
"people in gov't are to dum to kill people" well ok but really but isn't killing people one of the thing the U.S. gov't is best at.

[gabosaurus]

The JFK assassination will always be the most active conspiracy theory hotbed in the U.S. I took my daughter out to get some books last Sunday and there was an entire display shelf devoted to books about JFK and his demise.
I am still divided between the CIA, organized crime or Castro as the culprits.

[jimnyc]

I think Oswald killed JFK.

[gabosaurus]

I think Oswald killed JFK.

Too easy. Show some imagination!

Top 5 alleged culprits:

Lyndon Johnson
Castro
Organized crime
Poppy Bush
Space aliens

[Arbo]

I think Oswald killed JFK.

Nah, it was Bush.

[jimnyc]

Too easy. Show some imagination!

Top 5 alleged culprits:

Lyndon Johnson
Castro
Organized crime
Poppy Bush
Space aliens

If I must go out on a limb, then I would lean towards the mafia. But I honestly don't believe that, I think it's simply a lone killer, which morphed into multiple conspiracies, and has lived and breathed for 50 years.

[jimnyc]

Nah, it was Bush.

Elder, GW or Jeb? Or perhaps Cheney enlisted all 3 of them and the entire Bush family shot from various angles - but it was really Cheney shooting for the birds again? :coffee:

[Arbo]

Elder, GW or Jeb? Or perhaps Cheney enlisted all 3 of them and the entire Bush family shot from various angles - but it was really Cheney shooting for the birds again? :coffee:

Even simply blaming bush can turn into a quick multi-family member hit squad conspiracy. ;)

But you might be on to something, though I think Jeb would have been too young to be involved.

[fj1200]

Sure i could find alternative versions of plenty stories if i just want to find stories. but what we're talking about are here are things that have real forensic weight one way or the others.
...
you should take a look at some of the vids i posted. interesting to say the least.

Yes, real forensic weight which is completely different now than it was back then with the apparent bungling of the whole process. And I did watch most of the 5 minute video and there's only so much weight that can be placed on CE399.


I think Oswald killed JFK.

:laugh:

[jimnyc]

:laugh:

You filthy fucker! Now you got me all confused in the head. Are you laughing at me because you think my belief is funny? Because you thought I was kidding? Just because you wanted to fuck with me? LOL

[fj1200]

You filthy fucker! Now you got me all confused in the head. Are you laughing at me because you think my belief is funny? Because you thought I was kidding? Just because you wanted to fuck with me? LOL

I'll take any of those but I thought your post was the ultimate conspiracy theory; that the guy actually did it. :laugh:

[aboutime]

Since that Friday in November of 1963. The most popular, longest lasting Conspiracy Theory, most often written about, with the most books sold on the subject, has been The JFK murder.

Nearly every year since that day. Someone has offered up another of the possible hundreds of Conspiracy Theory stories...each intended to sell, and make a much money as possible.

And...the American people. Being so gullible, and easily led. Have all fallen for, and even become convinced....Oswald did not act alone. Which was the first Declaration made at that time that has been joined by dozens of other Declarations by KNOWING MINDS...better known as Fiction Writers out to make a Buck.

It has been 50 years, and still. The Warren Report is claimed to be fiction because. AMERICANS are so easily led, and so gullible still.

[revelarts]

Magic Bullet:
More lead in evidence recovered from Connelly than is missing from the Bullet
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/A1_DbeN6b48?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


the Rifle, is crap. unreliable, slow, small scope. same rifle as found?
Called "the humanitarian rifle" by the Italian army because they couldn't kill anyone with it.
Army's top snipers duplicated everything at Quantico and couldn't make the shots.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/CZ-C74ip2xY?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>



but hey, reality for everyone else on these points don't matter, LHO was just REALLY REALLY LUCKY Shooter.
And Bullets CAN sometime have more lead left on them than fragments that come off of them in their targets.

AND anyway somebody woulda talked, so no other facts matter!

[aboutime]

NOVEMBER 22nd of every year since 1963 has brought out more BS than a BS Factory.

The story will never go away, and there will always be someone who claims to KNOW what happened.

All of which, still, never manages to change after FIFTY YEARS.

All of the principles have DIED.

Everything else we hear is pure conjecture, and Endless BS.

[glockmail]

I think Oswald killed JFK.It was LBJ assisted by his thugs in the unions, hence mafia. LHO was a useful idiot, as was Jack Ruby. LBJ had means, motive and opportunity. RFK had all kinds of shit on him, which is why he didn't run for reelection.

[Gaffer]

I'm going on memory here. But, as I remember there was a bunch of evidence that was locked away and not to be made available to the public for 25 years. The excuse being to "protect the family". After 25 years, reporters attempted to get access to that evidence and were told nothing would be released for another 25 years. So here it is again, and the latest report is the evidence locked away will remain locked away forever.

Nothing to see here folks, just swamp gas.

[soupnazi630]

Single Bullet theory is BS.

the Bullet found on the stretcher in parkland hospital was Pristine. But the Dr.s and Nurses at the Hospital say they pulled bullet fragments from Connely Wrist and the rest of it from his thigh. couldn't have been on the stretcher.

and the Audio recording from the police radio definitively shows more shots that alleged by Warren.

And you've got 50+ witnesses that say shots were fired from the knoll.

And you've got most of the people who have tried to reproduce the shot LOH was suppose to have fired saying they could not do it. for multiple reason starting with the crappy rifle with slow bolt action. But somehow LOH did it nonchalantly. since he was seen in a lower floor lunch room before and after the the murder.

And you have the later House Select Committee on Assassination, congressional investigation concluding there was a more people involved.

to name a few Items...

oldy but goody
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHaMxA5w4_Y

well done modern summery
<iframe height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/65N3eP2yvbQ?feature=player_embedded" frameBorder="0" width="640" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

<iframe height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3dslC2FAReg?feature=player_embedded" frameBorder="0" width="640" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>


The single bullet fact is well proven and has never been debunked.

The claims you make concerning this bullet have long since been proven false.
First of all it was NEVER pristine it was damaged and missing mass in a manner perfectly consistent with a bullet which struck two men. It is endless CTs who claim it was pristine but that is simple a lie.

The audio recording from one officers shoulder microphone was found to have no sounds of any gunfire on it whatsoever and has no evidence supporting any theory.

You have 50+ witnesses TODAY claiming they heard gunfire from the knoll. Only a few made such a claim immediately after the shooting. The rest came forward and changed there testimony after extensive prompting and leading from conspiracy theorists they have NO credibility. In the end the vast majority of witnesses heard 3 and only 3 shots coming from the TSBD. Of course many others heard something different which is normal whenever there is more than one witness.

In fact nearly every expert or even average shooter is easily able to match or exceed Oswalds shooting. Furthermore nearly anyone can take the time he took to fire 3 shots hide the rifle and WALK calmly to the lunchroom where he was seen after the shooting. He was not seen there before the shooting.

The House select committee concludced that there was a PROBABLE conspiracy not a certianty.

They based that conclusion on the above mentioned audio tape which has long since been debunked. As this was their only evidence of a second shooter they have no evidence of such a shooter whatsoever. The ORIGINAL conclusion of the HSCA was that Oswald acted alone this is the proper conclusion to reach. They changef that conclusion only after the audio recording was introduced and then they disbanded before any others could examine it which is when it was proven wrong.

[namvet]

the magic bullet wasn't really magic


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfSXkfV_mhA

if I had to point a finger its at the Dallas PD or someone connected to them. they screwed the pooch here big time. add to it Kennedy was not liked at all in TX because of his stand on civil rights and communism, he had a lot of enemies there. if I had to point a finger IMO Ozwald did it. alone

he also had lots a bitch's and whore's


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiTfrIpVI6k

and he sealed his own fate by riding in the rag top

[revelarts]

So...
It seems like there's more evidence that the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination.
even though you wouldn't know much from the MSM.

Looks like and inside source tell Tucker Carlson that the records show the CIA was involved.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tucker-carlson-heres-what-a-source-said-about-the-cia-and-jfks-assassination/ar-AA15l8Ew

text

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCFr6aR61f8



Looks like recently revealed records show that the CIA met with Oswald months before the assassination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyLFRHzZZRI

https://www.maryferrell.org

Looks like the the grandfather of all conspiracy theories is true.

At what point are we going to admit that many (most?) "conspiracy theories" are just uncomfortable reality we don't believe yet.

[fj1200]

So...
It seems like there's more evidence that the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination.
even though you wouldn't know much from the MSM.

Looks like and inside source tell Tucker Carlson that the records show the CIA was involved.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tucker-carlson-heres-what-a-source-said-about-the-cia-and-jfks-assassination/ar-AA15l8Ew

text

Looks like recently revealed records show that the CIA met with Oswald months before the assassination.

https://www.maryferrell.org

Looks like the the grandfather of all conspiracy theories is true.

At what point are we going to admit that many (most?) "conspiracy theories" are just uncomfortable reality we don't believe yet.

I'm not quite sure that the new documents say what you think they say.


Conspiracies surrounding JFK's killing have piqued the curiosity — and sometimes obsession — of Americans for decades. Nevertheless, White House officials have reportedly indicated that nothing in the documents will support the two most popular conspiracies: That Oswald was not the shooter and that JFK's killing was a government conspiracy.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-unseal-thousands-classified-jfk-assassination-documents

[Gunny]

I'm not quite sure that the new documents say what you think they say.


https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-unseal-thousands-classified-jfk-assassination-documentsHorse feathers and this is why conspiracy theorists ruin it for anyone with legitimate questions.

I can tell you right now that ANY Marine that can't hit a target moving that slow from that piddly distance won't get through boot camp. Or wouldn't back then, anyway.

The forensics backs up Oswald being the lone shooter and his marksmanship from that distance was no great feat. Who, if anyone, was behind Oswald is a completely separate issue from the actual shooting. Like anything else, this is America and if more than one person was involved, someone would have stooged to sell a book by now :rolleyes:

[revelarts]

So...
It seems like there's more evidence that the CIA was involved in the JFK assassination.
even though you wouldn't know much from the MSM.
Looks like and inside source tell Tucker Carlson that the records show the CIA was involved.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tucker-carlson-heres-what-a-source-said-about-the-cia-and-jfks-assassination/ar-AA15l8Ew
text
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCFr6aR61f8
Looks like recently revealed records show that the CIA met with Oswald months before the assassination.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyLFRHzZZRI
https://www.maryferrell.org
Looks like the the grandfather of all conspiracy theories is true.
At what point are we going to admit that many (most?) "conspiracy theories" are just uncomfortable reality we don't believe yet.


I'm not quite sure that the new documents say what you think they say.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us-unseal-thousands-classified-jfk-assassination-documents


Horse feathers and this is why conspiracy theorists ruin it for anyone with legitimate questions.
I can tell you right now that ANY Marine that can't hit a target moving that slow from that piddly distance won't get through boot camp. Or wouldn't back then, anyway.
The forensics backs up Oswald being the lone shooter and his marksmanship from that distance was no great feat. Who, if anyone, was behind Oswald is a completely separate issue from the actual shooting. Like anything else, this is America and if more than one person was involved, someone would have stooged to sell a book by now :rolleyes:


So I guess the answer to my question
"At what point are we going to admit that many (most?) "conspiracy theories" are just uncomfortable reality we don't believe yet."
is never

[fj1200]

So I guess the answer to my question
"At what point are we going to admit that many (most?) "conspiracy theories" are just uncomfortable reality we don't believe yet."
is never

That point is at least beyond the evidence that you've proffered as the smoking gun.

[revelarts]

That point is at least beyond the evidence that you've proffered as the smoking gun.

Just curious, what evidence would convince you (& Gunny or others here) that some portion of US intel agencies, or even LBJ had a hand in the assassination of JFK?

[fj1200]

Just curious, what evidence would convince you (& @Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) or others here) that some portion of US intel agencies, or even LBJ had a hand in the assassination of JFK?

Correct me if I'm wrong but nothing in the latest data dump has even intimated what you just alleged.

[Gunny]

So I guess the answer to my question
"At what point are we going to admit that many (most?) "conspiracy theories" are just uncomfortable reality we don't believe yet."
is never

Here's an observation for you: I have always found it amusing that I don't dismiss anything outright without further review (unless it's beyond ridiculous); which, never seems to appease either the believers or non-believers. I do believe some "inconvenient truths" labeled conspiracy theories to be true; while, allowing for others to hold their own opinions for whatever reasons.

Here's a simple fact: theories are not supported by evidence or they would be fact rather than theory. Something to bear in mind while arguing in support of a theory because there will always be the dismissive folk who say "prove it".

I have probably read, watched and/or listened to more JFK assassination "theories" than you've even heard of. The forensic/scientific explanation for the actual shooting debunks all "theories" about this shooter, that shooter, dual shooters, guy on the grassy knoll, CIA agents in the storm drain and whatnot.

I also for the purposes of this conversation have the unique (to this board) perspective of being a Marine shooter. 265 feet is 80 meters, or 88 yards. Marines START shooting, with iron sights, at 200 meters. Then we move to 300 and 500 meters. Oswald qualified in boot camp with an m-14, which match shooters fire accurately from 1000 meters with iron sights.

Oswald fired a scoped, bolt-action Carcano rifle from a rest at a target moving less than 5 mph at spitting distance. There's nothing spectacular going on here. I'd take that shot without a scope. There's just no debate. No magic anything. The facts are there.

As far the theories of who was behind Oswald, there are as many as there are assholes. Everybody's got one. Nobody knows and I feel pretty safe in saying at this point, nobody's going to.

The CIA
Cuba
Marsella (sp?) the New Orleans Mafia boss RFK had deported
Tropicante (sp?) FL mob boss
The Irish mob
The 5 Families
The KGB (Oswald did live in Russia for awhile and had a Russian wife)

Wonder which one of those "august" groups would be willing to have all Hell rain down on them by trusting a total whack job like Oswald to murder the President of the US? Every single one had way too much to lose to deal with an attention-whoring moron like Oswald. Oswald got exactly what he was after: he's (in)famous as long as the US exists.

My "theory" on that is: pending further evidence/facts, I don't know the answer. I feel no need to make one up in the absence of one. Random shit happens sometimes.

[Gunny]

Just curious, what evidence would convince you (& @Gunny (http://www.debatepolicy.com/member.php?u=30) or others here) that some portion of US intel agencies, or even LBJ had a hand in the assassination of JFK?Evidence.

How many US Presidents have been assassinated, or attempts made to assassinate them, by US intel agencies or LBJ vs lone, nutcase gunmen? I'll even give you there was a conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln; although, I would hardly consider any of it "intelligent".

[revelarts]

Evidence.
...

what evidence?

[fj1200]

^Beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Gunny]

what evidence?You're trying to talk in circles. The sign of a weak argument refusing to back down.

There is physical, scientific evidence that proves Oswald fired the shots, one of them killing JFK. There's no "magic bullet". When you place Connally in the jump seat he was in down to the right and in front of Kennedy, the bullets go right where they were aimed without doing monkey flips.

Oswald was in the Book Depository with the 7.6whatever, scoped Carcano rifle that numerous photos show him in possession of. There's no rocket science here. It only becomes complicated when people who can't accept the obvious for what it is start diluting the event with irrelevant crap. Quite frankly, as proven by the actual, physical facts, there was no need for all the hoopla you and others want to dress the story up with and turn it into something it never was.

As far as if there was someone behind Oswald, you'll need some hard, physical evidence that supports any such notion, which there is not. What there IS is plenty of unrelated facts people attempt to tie together with a LOT of imagination, designed to convolute or discredit the evidence that does exist.

There is no supported, factual evidence that it was anything more than what it was; which, is supported overwhelmingly by a preponderance of evidence.

I've heard a "theory" that Edwin Stanton was behind Lincoln's assassination because Lincoln was conciliatory toward the South while the North and establishment Federal government wanted the South to pay through the nose. Supporting such a "theory" is that Stanton seized control of the Federal government upon Lincoln's assassination.

Plausible. Not likely.

[revelarts]

^Beyond a reasonable doubt.

Such as?
please give me some examples of what you mean.

[fj1200]

Such as?
please give me some examples of what you mean.

You are aware that is not how it works right?

Perhaps an email to lhoswald@cia.gov. Possibly a funds wire transfer to a numbered account from AirAmerica. Or maybe a wiretap recording that captures a known CIA handler providing scheduling information about secret service details. The possibilities are endless that to narrow it down to some is quite a challenge.

What kind of evidence do you have? The not-conjecture kind.

[revelarts]

You are aware that is not how it works right?
Perhaps an email to lhoswald@cia.gov. Possibly a funds wire transfer to a numbered account from AirAmerica. Or maybe a wiretap recording that captures a known CIA handler providing scheduling information about secret service details. The possibilities are endless that to narrow it down to some is quite a challenge.
What kind of evidence do you have? The not-conjecture kind.


Ok, You and gunny have high standards. no problem.
Just wondering if you & Gunny use the same standard across the board?
Are Hillary or Bill Clinton guilty of any crimes, OJ, Michael Jackson?
I think you both are old enough to remember that Cigarette Corps and Asbestos Corps with the FDA etc claimed that smoking did NOT cause any known problems?
Did you wait for "not-conjecture kind" of "evidence" before you allowed yourself to conclude that they might be guilty?
I get the idea that the JFK "evidence" may not be UP TO your high standards but I just doubt that you used that same High standard across the board.
I just suspect there are things you guys truly believe about events that don't have half the evidence available that the JFK case has for conspiracy.

BTW even congress grudgingly and timidly concluded that JFK's assassination was a "probably" a conspiracy. after NOT allowing certain evidence to be reviewed.
But hey you guy have standards.
House Select Committee: Summary of Findings and Recommendations
"...Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy...."
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/summary.html



Gunny, all due respect to you and your experience, i've heard otherwise concerning the shots Oswald supposedly took.
Kennedy Assassination: Gunny Hathcock's take
Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock is likewise skeptical of Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Hathcock is a former senior instructor at the U. S. Marine Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. He has been described as the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed kills. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. Craig Roberts asked Hathcock about the marksmanship feat attributed to Oswald by the Warren Commission. Hathcock answered that he did not believe Oswald could have done what the Commission said he did. Added Hathcock:
"Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did". (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90)....
https://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?50970-Kennedy-assassination-Gunny-Hathcock-s-take


also
From an old telegraph article 2007
Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.
In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough....
The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day...
..

I suspect none of the above counts as "evidence" or "not conjecture" to you 2 so I post it as interesting information others might consider to draw different conclusions

[Gunny]

You are aware that is not how it works right?

Perhaps an email to lhoswald@cia.gov. Possibly a funds wire transfer to a numbered account from AirAmerica. Or maybe a wiretap recording that captures a known CIA handler providing scheduling information about secret service details. The possibilities are endless that to narrow it down to some is quite a challenge.

What kind of evidence do you have? The not-conjecture kind.

@revalarts I concur with FJ. Not how it works. You make a statement as if it is fact - you provide the evidence to support it. It is not incumbent on others to provide evidence for your whatiffery.

As fj points out, the possibilities are endless; especially, where the basis of the discussion is imagination.

[Gunny]

Ok, You and gunny have high standards. no problem.
Just wondering if you & Gunny use the same standard across the board?
Are Hillary or Bill Clinton guilty of any crimes, OJ, Michael Jackson?
I think you both are old enough to remember that Cigarette Corps and Asbestos Corps with the FDA etc claimed that smoking did NOT cause any known problems?
Did you wait for "not-conjecture kind" of "evidence" before you allowed yourself to conclude that they might be guilty?
I get the idea that the JFK "evidence" may not be UP TO your high standards but I just doubt that you used that same High standard across the board.
I just suspect there are things you guys truly believe about events that don't have half the evidence available that the JFK case has for conspiracy.

BTW even congress grudgingly and timidly concluded that JFK's assassination was a "probably" a conspiracy. after NOT allowing certain evidence to be reviewed.
But hey you guy have standards.
House Select Committee: Summary of Findings and Recommendations
"...Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy...."
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/summary.html



Gunny, all due respect to you and your experience, i've heard otherwise concerning the shots Oswald supposedly took.
Kennedy Assassination: Gunny Hathcock's take
Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock is likewise skeptical of Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Hathcock is a former senior instructor at the U. S. Marine Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. He has been described as the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed kills. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. Craig Roberts asked Hathcock about the marksmanship feat attributed to Oswald by the Warren Commission. Hathcock answered that he did not believe Oswald could have done what the Commission said he did. Added Hathcock:
"Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did". (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90)....
https://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?50970-Kennedy-assassination-Gunny-Hathcock-s-take


also

I suspect none of the above counts as "evidence" or "not conjecture" to you 2 so I post it as interesting information others might consider to draw different conclusions

Carlos Hathcock passed away in 1999. Pre-current forensics technology. As stated in your own reference, they tried to recreate. Dubious.

Aren't you the one always questioning the government? That would be the premise of your argument in this thread, I do believe. But you don't question Hathcock making such a statement? If he was part of trying to recreate in Quantico, VA a shot taken in Dallas, TX, just who do you suppose was footing his bill? Quantico is home for Marine Corps Sniper School, among others. The other federal gov player in the area is the FBI. Now suddenly their word is gold?:rolleyes: I disagree with Hatchcock's statement.

With all do respects to Gunny Hathcock, I would have zero problem having this argument with him and/or taking his ass out to the range. He'd have to prove to me he could out-shoot me, I don't give a rat's ass who he thinks he is. That's a Marine that has nothing to do with you or your argument. It STILL wouldn't support your conspiracy theory with any evidence. Just an opinion.

The ability to shoot and kill does not a detective nor forensics expert make.

[revelarts]

Carlos Hathcock passed away in 1999. Pre-current forensics technology. As stated in your own reference, they tried to recreate. Dubious.

Aren't you the one always questioning the government? That would be the premise of your argument in this thread, I do believe. But you don't question Hathcock making such a statement? If he was part of trying to recreate in Quantico, VA a shot taken in Dallas, TX, just who do you suppose was footing his bill? Quantico is home for Marine Corps Sniper School, among others. The other federal gov player in the area is the FBI. Now suddenly their word is gold?:rolleyes: I disagree with Hatchcock's statement.

With all do respects to Gunny Hathcock, I would have zero problem having this argument with him and/or taking his ass out to the range. He'd have to prove to me he could out-shoot me, I don't give a rat's ass who he thinks he is. That's a Marine that has nothing to do with you or your argument. It STILL wouldn't support your conspiracy theory with any evidence. Just an opinion.

The ability to shoot and kill does not a detective nor forensics expert make.

When a marine who's been a sniper and worked out of the Marine & FBI (Quantico) headquarters, and recreated the shots,
AND goes against the Gov'ts official story, yes, I think that's significant. And credible and count his testimony as valid expert witness information.

You can dismiss it all out of hand yourself, Ok, you're a better shot than Hathcock, (um, I believe ya Gunny -cough-)
We see it differently.

[revelarts]

As far as forensic evidence goes
maybe you guy can tell me something.
Some forensic experts have noted that frame z313 shows that a shot came from the front.
The blood spatter at the front is a tell tale signature of Entry not exit.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlUuw1CXwAAPvdC?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlUuw3jWYAE8yPh?format=jpg&name=medium


they also point the fact that many eye witnesses at the hospital say the back of head was missing.
while the front was in tack, which also is evidence that they was a shot from the front.
which would mean 2 shooters.

gunny have you ever seen someone shot from the back of the head with rifle from 88 yards whose face was left intact?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlUus8tX0AIDeJr?format=png&name=small

[fj1200]

Ok, You and gunny have high standards. no problem.
Just wondering if you & Gunny use the same standard across the board?
Are Hillary or Bill Clinton guilty of any crimes, OJ, Michael Jackson?
I think you both are old enough to remember that Cigarette Corps and Asbestos Corps with the FDA etc claimed that smoking did NOT cause any known problems?
Did you wait for "not-conjecture kind" of "evidence" before you allowed yourself to conclude that they might be guilty?
I get the idea that the JFK "evidence" may not be UP TO your high standards but I just doubt that you used that same High standard across the board.
I just suspect there are things you guys truly believe about events that don't have half the evidence available that the JFK case has for conspiracy.

BTW even congress grudgingly and timidly concluded that JFK's assassination was a "probably" a conspiracy. after NOT allowing certain evidence to be reviewed.
But hey you guy have standards.
House Select Committee: Summary of Findings and Recommendations
"...Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy. Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President. Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations.
The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy...."
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/summary.html



Gunny, all due respect to you and your experience, i've heard otherwise concerning the shots Oswald supposedly took.
Kennedy Assassination: Gunny Hathcock's take
Retired Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock is likewise skeptical of Oswald's alleged shooting feat. Hathcock is a former senior instructor at the U. S. Marine Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. He has been described as the most famous American military sniper in history. In Vietnam he was credited with 93 confirmed kills. He now conducts police SWAT team sniper schools across the country. Craig Roberts asked Hathcock about the marksmanship feat attributed to Oswald by the Warren Commission. Hathcock answered that he did not believe Oswald could have done what the Commission said he did. Added Hathcock:
"Let me tell you what we did at Quantico. We reconstructed the whole thing: the angle, the range, the moving target, the time limit, the obstacles, everything. I don't know how many times we tried it, but we couldn't duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did". (KILL ZONE, pp. 89-90)....
https://www.leatherneck.com/forums/showthread.php?50970-Kennedy-assassination-Gunny-Hathcock-s-take


also

I suspect none of the above counts as "evidence" or "not conjecture" to you 2 so I post it as interesting information others might consider to draw different conclusions

Bill and Hillary? Probably but of the campaign finance variety not the killing low level drug dealers in Mena AR variety. OJ? Probably but prosecuted poorly. Michael Jackson? Probably but enough money to make crimes go away. But those aren't really what we're talking about here. You're rehashing the same conjecture that's been quibbled over for decades and the latest crop of declassified data didn't really change anything. There's no new scientific evidence presented. I'd say that there's no chance that acoustical evidence can prove anything in a Canyon. Some people not doing what LHO, allegedly, did doesn't mean that someone else can't or LHO didn't.

If you want to say that someone must have helped him do the planning etc. with little information that supports it then technically you've got a conspiracy and I'm not going to give you much grief. If you want to say that the CIA knew of his existence and was involved in the assassination of a sitting president with nothing more than conjecture and ideas then yeah, you've got a high standard to meet. But just putting up examples of other questionable scenarios proves this outlandish scenario is a trip to far without something more.

[fj1200]

As far as forensic evidence goes
maybe you guy can tell me something.
Some forensic experts have noted that frame z313 shows that a shot came from the front.
The blood spatter at the front is a tell tale signature of Entry not exit.


is observed to be true in the Zapruder Film for the +x (left to right down Elm Street) direction, which is consistent with statement (33) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/#fm0380) for the observed forward impulse. But if an equivalent statement is attempted for the hypothetical case occurring in the opposite −x direction (i.e., originating from a shot to the front of the limousine), from the Zapruder Film Q is false for reasons explained in Section 2.2 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/#se0100). Thus, from the tautological expression

(P⇒Q)⟺(¬Q⇒¬P),

(34)

a frontal impact at Z313 is physically ruled out. Of course, the validity of statement (34) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/#fm0390) does not rule out conjectured missed shots (although no physical evidence was ever recovered for any such shots), nor does it pinpoint the exact origin of the shot that hit (e.g., the TSBD as opposed to another nearby building). But the modeling study (and underlying dynamics and conservation laws) presented in this paper, in corroboration of the autopsy findings [25] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/#br0250), do imply that President Kennedy was not hit by a hypothesized gunshot from the front. The conclusion is an important one given that the hypothesized existence of a shooter in front of the limousine (viz., on the Grassy Knoll) has been the primary physical foundation for virtually all conspiracy conjectures to date on the topic.13 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/#fn0120) As a parting note, while the simple one-dimensional physical models presented in this paper were derived for application to a special case study (viz., the Kennedy Assassination), the underlying physical principles provide an approximate quantitative description of the interaction between a high-speed projectile (slowed by an intervening atmosphere) and a heterogenous body comprised of bone and visco-elastic tissue (viz., the human head), and may also form a basic conceptual basis for understanding the wounding mechanisms involved in such interactions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5934694/bin/gr002.jpg

[Gunny]

When a marine who's been a sniper and worked out of the Marine & FBI (Quantico) headquarters, and recreated the shots,
AND goes against the Gov'ts official story, yes, I think that's significant. And credible and count his testimony as valid expert witness information.

You can dismiss it all out of hand yourself, Ok, you're a better shot than Hathcock, (um, I believe ya Gunny -cough-)
We see it differently.

You find it significant because it suits your fantasy.

I'm not getting into a pissing contest with you over a deceased Gunnery Sergeant's word. Talking shit on a message board goes nowhere. I went to the same school he did. Just not the same war. At my best/in my prime, NO ONE could shoot better than I. Period. It's as much a mental state of being as it is physical fact, and something you definitely would not understand. If you believe you can fail, you will. If I told my Maj W-, my instructor, "I can't anything" I'd not have seen another 10 seconds of his school. That's how it is in the real World.

Once again, you turn your flailing argument into a personal one. This isn't about whether or not I can best a deceased person who is not here to accept the challenge to a shooting match. It's about Oswald taking an easy shot at spitting distance. I'd take that shot with my lever-action carbine with ramp rear and blade front sights. There's nothing more I've got to say on that since you'd rather believe fantasy. Ironically, you'll take some conspiracy BS as gospel without evidence; yet, demand it to refute the fantasy.

The real elephant in the room that your story lacks is a motive. For those who DID have (real or imagined) motive to assassinate JFK, the CIA and/or other Federal government agencies aren't one.

[Gunny]

As far as forensic evidence goes
maybe you guy can tell me something.
Some forensic experts have noted that frame z313 shows that a shot came from the front.
The blood spatter at the front is a tell tale signature of Entry not exit.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlUuw1CXwAAPvdC?format=jpg&name=small

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlUuw3jWYAE8yPh?format=jpg&name=medium


they also point the fact that many eye witnesses at the hospital say the back of head was missing.
while the front was in tack, which also is evidence that they was a shot from the front.
which would mean 2 shooters.

gunny have you ever seen someone shot from the back of the head with rifle from 88 yards whose face was left intact?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlUus8tX0AIDeJr?format=png&name=small

I'm not the one trying to tell people what conclusions to draw. You are. I'm stating MY opinions based on science, fact and real evidence. You're throwing out he said/she said.

In all honesty, it doesn't really matter anymore who killed JFK or why. He's STILL dead 60 years later and the case has been long ago put to rest by everyone except necromongering conspiracy theorists. EVEN IF a boatload of real, hard, scientific/forensic evidence was data dumped on the public right this minute, naming names and everything, who is it you think is still alive to be held accountable?

You couldn't possible give me a worse opinion of the Federal government and its shenanigans than I already have. I just like to stick to the shit they're actually doing that no one is doing anything about.

[Gunny]

Bill and Hillary? Probably but of the campaign finance variety not the killing low level drug dealers in Mena AR variety. OJ? Probably but prosecuted poorly. Michael Jackson? Probably but enough money to make crimes go away. But those aren't really what we're talking about here. You're rehashing the same conjecture that's been quibbled over for decades and the latest crop of declassified data didn't really change anything. There's no new scientific evidence presented. I'd say that there's no chance that acoustical evidence can prove anything in a Canyon. Some people not doing what LHO, allegedly, did doesn't mean that someone else can't or LHO didn't.

If you want to say that someone must have helped him do the planning etc. with little information that supports it then technically you've got a conspiracy and I'm not going to give you much grief. If you want to say that the CIA knew of his existence and was involved in the assassination of a sitting president with nothing more than conjecture and ideas then yeah, you've got a high standard to meet. But just putting up examples of other questionable scenarios proves this outlandish scenario is a trip to far without something more.

If I was going to take a stab in the dark, my two favorites are: Cuban Freedom Fighters abandoned at the Bay of Pigs, or Marcello and Trafficante. They actually had a motive given AG Robert Kennedy was up their every orifice.

Then it goes back to nobody with that much power and access to killers is going to get a bumbling fool like Oswald to do anything more than clean the shitter for them.

Oswald's amateurism is another thing that points to his acting on his own.

[revelarts]

..There's nothing more I've got to say on that ...

no worries.
But as usual I've got a lot to say myself, but I'll leave it here.

[revelarts]

1 last post concerning the veracity of the Hathcock quote


Carlos Hathcock passed away in 1999. Pre-current forensics technology. As stated in your own reference, they tried to recreate. Dubious.

Aren't you the one always questioning the government? That would be the premise of your argument in this thread, I do believe. But you don't question Hathcock making such a statement? If he was part of trying to recreate in Quantico, VA a shot taken in Dallas, TX, just who do you suppose was footing his bill? Quantico is home for Marine Corps Sniper School, among others. The other federal gov player in the area is the FBI. Now suddenly their word is gold?:rolleyes: I disagree with Hatchcock's statement.

....

letter to James DiEugenio (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/3885-james-dieugenio/)
Posted August 28, 2020 (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26705-carlos-hathcock/?do=findComment&comment=428050)

Jim,

I’ve been asked this question of whether Carlos said this or not many times. I can assure you he did. He was a personal friend of mine, and when I was doing the research on Kill Zone I called him and asked what he thought about the “official” story of Oswald being the lone nut with a Carcano could do what the Warren Commission said. He laughed and said that they tried to duplicate it at Quantico at the USMC Sniper Instructor School. He said they used a 6.5 Carcano with 4x scope (he didn’t mention if it was a cheap Hollywood Optics scope like what was mounted on the “Oswald” rifle.) But I’m sure they bore sighted it before trying to duplicate the feat of 3 shots in 5.6 seconds on a moving target in a high to low angle. He said after several tries they simply could not duplicate it on the conditions Oswald would have had. It takes time to fire a shot, work the bolt, get back on target and get the proper eye relief from the scope to fire the next shot.

I didn’t record the phone call but I took notes. When I wrote that part of Kill Zone I sent it to him to make sure it was correct. He said it was.

A few years back a Japanese film company came over here and did a feature piece on the JFK assassination. One thing they did was come to me to try and duplicate it here. I was referred to by Jim Marrs. They had managed to obtain a Carcano from a Hollywood arsenal that had film props and weapons, and it was better than the Oswald weapon as it was a 7.35mm from Mussolini’s elite guard troops which had a much smoother action. It still jammed when I tried to rapid fire it.

We set up on a balcony of a friend’s house out here in the country overlooking a valley. We set up a man-size target at 88 yards which was the longest shot according to the WC. We set up a window frame on the railing of the balcony/deck and I took up a position similar to what the 6th Floor Museum has set up. I shot a total of 18 rounds in total, firing 3 rounds on the clock timer at a time. On most strings I managed the first two shots in the target but not all three before the clock ran out. Then I took my Remington 700 Police Sniper rifle, .308 caliber, and shot four strings with three hitting the target inside the time limit. The action was much smoother, the rifle much more accurate, and a good scope.

Craig Roberts (https://www.amazon.com/Craig-Roberts/e/B001ITRMB2/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1)
Edited August 29, 2020 by James DiEugenio

Book Kill Zone (https://www.amazon.com/Kill-Zone-Sniper-Looks-Dealey/dp/1494985667/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2QLOQ8G9BQ0FB&keywords=kill+zone+book&qid=1672583215&sprefix=kill+zone%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-2)
In 1987, former U.S. Marine Corps sniper Craig Roberts, a seasoned veteran of the Vietnam war, stood for the first time at the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository. As he looked down into that the U.S. Government maintains was the kill zone used by Lee Harvey Oswald, he knew immediately the the Warren Commission's verdict that Oswald, acting alone from that position, fired three shots is 5.6 seconds with an ancient bolt-action rifle was a lie. If Oswald, by himself, could not have done it, then who could? And why? Follow Roberts's investigation of six years into a shadow world of black operations into a level above the CIA, the KGB, the Mafia, Texas oil and others into a powerful organization that to them, to murder a head of a country anywhere is "business as usual."

[fj1200]

^Improbable? Probably. Impossible? Probably not.

What are the alternative theories? A shooter from the front? Forensically doesn't pan out. Another shooter from the back? I don't recall hearing that theory but subject to some of the same limitations.

[Gunny]

no worries.
But as usual I've got a lot to say myself, but I'll leave it here.I do not discount your opinions. You are the one with the black or white only mentality here. As observation, not insult.

I'm not trying to win anything here. The evidence to support that statement is there is nothing to win. I would rather know why a certain percentage of people can take any topic, reject what is there in plain sight in lieu of some overly-complicated fantasy that requires more improbabilities to come together perfectly, than me learning to read, write and speak Chinese by lunchtime.

So, is there a conspiracy behind what the MSM/left labels "mass shootings" in recent years? Lone nutjobs? Or is something more nefarious behind each and every one? Just wondering.

[revelarts]

I do not discount your opinions. You are the one with the black or white only mentality here. As observation, not insult.


Well if i see the evidence leans more one way than the other I tend to (or hope I tend to) take that as factual.

you know like you would at a trial.
seriously Gunny, no disrespect to you at all, but if Hathcock were on the stand and you followed him on the stand I think most juries would take Hathcocks words over your's. especially since you haven't recreated it and tried to do it.
Not a pissing contest, or "opinion" just that his view would likely hold more weight than your's.
Even though you are sincerely convinced that you or Oswald could do it.
Also Oswald said he did NOT do it. Unlike most lone nuts who do take "credit" for those kinds of acts.
BTW, if i remember correctly they checked Oswald's face and hands for powder and found none.

Also simply explanations don't necessarily equal true.


....

So, is there a conspiracy behind what the MSM/left labels "mass shootings" in recent years? Lone nutjobs? Or is something more nefarious behind each and every one? Just wondering.
I don't know. Not that I'm aware of.
Do you have some intel you'd like to share with us?
If the evidence is there, I'm willing to look at it aren't you?

[Gunny]

Well if i see the evidence leans more one way than the other I tend to (or hope I tend to) take that as factual.

you know like you would at a trial.
seriously Gunny, no disrespect to you at all, but if Hathcock were on the stand and you followed him on the stand I think most juries would take Hathcocks words over your's. especially since you haven't recreated it and tried to do it.
Not a pissing contest, or "opinion" just that his view would likely hold more weight than your's.
Even though you are sincerely convinced that you or Oswald could do it.
Also Oswald said he did NOT do it. Unlike most lone nuts who do take "credit" for those kinds of acts.
BTW, if i remember correctly they checked Oswald's face and hands for powder and found none.

Also simply explanations don't necessarily equal true.

I don't know. Not that I'm aware of.
Do you have some intel you'd like to share with us?
If the evidence is there, I'm willing to look at it aren't you?I'm not seeing where I disagree with Hathcock. I disagree with you not doing your homework and jumping to conclusions on half a tank. And you ARE trying to start a pissing contest between me and a deceased, decorated Marine who is not around to defend himself or his argument.

Edit: Never mind. Pointless.

[revelarts]

NO Magic Bullet.
the bullet hit Kennedy in the back and then fell into the back seat.
The Secret Service man there NOW SAYS he pulled it out of the seat as everyone else rushed into the hospital.
He put the bullet in his pocket walked it into the hospital and put it on the gunnery... where it was "found".


(NewsNation (http://newsnationnow.com/)) — A former Secret Service agent who witnessed President John F. Kennedy (https://www.newsnationnow.com/politics/kennedy-tops-former-presidents-90-approval/)‘s assassination (https://www.newsnationnow.com/vargasreports/account-jfk-assassination-posner/) 60 years ago is casting renewed doubt on the so-called “magic bullet” theory.
Paul Landis (https://www.newsnationnow.com/politics/new-accoun-jfk-assassination-questions-magic-bullet-theory/), 88, was in the car directly behind Kennedy when shots rang out in Dallas’ Dealey Plaza (https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/lawsuit-seeks-more-footage-of-jfks-assassination/) in 1963. The former agent claims that after the president was shot, he found one of the bullets lodged in the back seat of Kennedy’s limo. He says he later placed it on JFK’s stretcher at the hospital.
“I put the bullet in my pocket,” said Landis. “We raced through the lobby of the emergency room. I got pushed right up against the examination table where they had placed President Kennedy. When I was going into the room, they were removing his body from the gurney. And I quickly thought, ‘This is the place where the bullet should be.’ I made a snap decision.”
.....

According to that theory, one of the bullets hit Kennedy from behind and continued to hit then-Texas Gov. John Connally, who was sitting in front of the president.
“I heard the sound of a high-powered rifle. And just a few seconds after the first (shot), I heard a second shot, and I was looking at the President’s car,” he said. “I saw no movement or disturbance. And I thought that shot had missed. I heard the third shot come very quickly after the second shot I heard.”
Landis believes the bullet only hit Kennedy and subsequently popped out in the back seat.
He said he never questioned the magic bullet theory for “several years” because he initially didn’t know what it was.
Landis now questions whether Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in Kennedy’s killing, which has long been the official stance of the U.S. intelligence community.
“For one single bullet to hit the president in the head and hip. Then Gov. Connolly in the shoulder (and) continues down to hit his wrist and then ends up lodged in his leg. It just didn’t make any sense at all,” Landis said.
He said he was traumatized for months after the shooting.
“I kind of figured that I would be interviewed by the Warren Commission once I heard that it was formed,” he said. “I was a little nervous about being examined because I was afraid I was going to break down. There was a lot of crying with everybody. Nobody talked to each other about this.”
According to Landis, the Warren Commission never interviewed him.

Not enough bullets for Oswald only.

Gov't was lying? say it aint so.
No one should question the gov't.

[fj1200]

A secret service agent was there, found a bullet (was that the pristine one?), put it in his pocket, on a whim tossed it on the gurney, thinks a bullet "popped out," and didn't question the MBT because he didn't know what the Magic Bullet Theory was? Interesting.

Did you watch the forensics episode in the OP?

[revelarts]

A secret service agent was there, found a bullet (was that the pristine one?), put it in his pocket, on a whim tossed it on the gurney, thinks a bullet "popped out," and didn't question the MBT because he didn't know what the Magic Bullet Theory was? Interesting.

Did you watch the forensics episode in the OP?
Go look up what the Secret Service guy said for yourself. i might misread it.

[Black Diamond]

A secret service agent was there, found a bullet (was that the pristine one?), put it in his pocket, on a whim tossed it on the gurney, thinks a bullet "popped out," and didn't question the MBT because he didn't know what the Magic Bullet Theory was? Interesting.

Did you watch the forensics episode in the OP?

I think the bullet on the gurney was in the Oliver stone film.

[fj1200]

Go look up what the Secret Service guy said for yourself. i might misread it.

I think your copy and paste skills are up to snuff on that. No sentence in the middle of a paragraph in the middle of a larger story on that one. Good on ya.

Did you critically think through it?


I think the bullet on the gurney was in the Oliver stone film.

I wouldn't doubt it if it fed the conspiracy narrative. Personally I think someone tossed the pristine bullet on the gurney to cement the case against Oswald but I haven't timelined it out or anything.

[AHZ]

No one should question the gov't.


I believe this is the correct context which defines the full message of the essay.

[fj1200]

I believe this is the correct context which defines the full message of the essay.

But believe without question any unvetted witnesses and 88 year-olds with 50 year-old memories.

[AHZ]

But believe without question any unvetted witnesses and 88 year-olds with 50 year-old memories.


right. magic bullet.

[fj1200]

right. magic bullet.

Oh, you're not banned. Good on ya bro.

But watch the video in the OP, then tell me where it might be wrong. You know; critically think it through.

[revelarts]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/A1_DbeN6b48?

[Kathianne]

Oh, you're not banned. Good on ya bro.

But watch the video in the OP, then tell me where it might be wrong. You know; critically think it through.
You spoke too soon. :laugh:

[Mr. P]

https://youtu.be/lQ435lMaCng?si=iunRer_CA8X0JROS

[fj1200]

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/cold-case-jfk/