Thomas Sowell- Who shut down the government?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.creators.com/print/conservative/thomas-sowell/who-shut-down-the-government.html Even when it comes to something as basic, and apparently as simple and straightforward, as the question of who shut down the federal government, there are diametrically opposite answers, depending on whether you talk to Democrats or to Republicans.

There is really nothing complicated about the facts. The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted all the money required to keep all government activities going — except for ObamaCare.

This is not a matter of opinion. You can check the Congressional Record.

As for the House of Representatives' right to grant or withhold money, that is not a matter of opinion either. You can check the Constitution of the United States. All spending bills must originate in the House of Representatives, which means that Congressmen there have a right to decide whether or not they want to spend money on a particular government activity.

Whether ObamaCare is good, bad or indifferent is a matter of opinion. But it is a matter of fact that members of the House of Representatives have a right to make spending decisions based on their opinion.

ObamaCare is indeed "the law of the land," as its supporters keep saying, and the Supreme Court has upheld its Constitutionality.

But the whole point of having a division of powers within the federal government is that each branch can decide independently what it wants to do or not do, regardless of what the other branches do, when exercising the powers specifically granted to that branch by the Constitution.

The hundreds of thousands of government workers who have been laid off are not idle because the House of Representatives did not vote enough money to pay their salaries or the other expenses of their agencies — unless they are in an agency that would administer ObamaCare.

Since we cannot read minds, we cannot say who — if anybody — "wants to shut down the government." But we do know who had the option to keep the government running and chose not to. The money voted by the House of Representatives covered everything that the government does, except for ObamaCare.

The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for ObamaCare. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says that he wants a "clean" bill from the House of Representatives, and some in the media keep repeating the word "clean" like a mantra. But what is unclean about not giving Harry Reid everything he wants?

If Senator Reid and President Obama refuse to accept the money required to run the government, because it leaves out the money they want to run ObamaCare, that is their right. But that is also their responsibility.

You cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want. And it is a fraud to blame them when you refuse to use the money they did vote, even when it is ample to pay for everything else in the government.

When Barack Obama keeps claiming that it is some new outrage for those who control the money to try to change government policy by granting or withholding money, that is simply a bald-faced lie. You can check the history of other examples of "legislation by appropriation" as it used to be called.

Whether legislation by appropriation is a good idea or a bad idea is a matter of opinion. But whether it is both legal and not unprecedented is a matter of fact.

Perhaps the biggest of the big lies is that the government will not be able to pay what it owes on the national debt, creating a danger of default. Tax money keeps coming into the Treasury during the shutdown, and it vastly exceeds the interest that has to be paid on the national debt.

Even if the debt ceiling is not lifted, that only means that government is not allowed to run up new debt. But that does not mean that it is unable to pay the interest on existing debt.

None of this is rocket science. But unless the Republicans get their side of the story out — and articulation has never been their strong suit — the lies will win. More important, the whole country will lose. The man is as right as rain......-Tyr

[bingster]

Too simplistic. Republicans wrote a bill with a poison pill in it. Senate took it out and Republicans didn't even try to pass it (even though at times, it seemed they had the votes).

If rolls were reversed, and Democrats put up a CR with anything the Republicans didn't like, I don't know, you pick it, and Republicans did the same, you would be accusing the Democrats for shutting down the government. It's the whole concept of the "poison pill"

The only facts of the matter is that the Tea Party has been cheering on shutting down the government since they came into Congress in 2010. 80 of them sent a letter to Boehner that essentially says "Defund Obamacare even if it shuts down the government".

Above 70% of the country don't approve of this technique and are clearly blaming the Republicans for it. Might as well use the Congressional record for toilet paper because the American people aren't buying it.

[Gaffer]

Too simplistic. Republicans wrote a bill with a poison pill in it. Senate took it out and Republicans didn't even try to pass it (even though at times, it seemed they had the votes).

If rolls were reversed, and Democrats put up a CR with anything the Republicans didn't like, I don't know, you pick it, and Republicans did the same, you would be accusing the Democrats for shutting down the government. It's the whole concept of the "poison pill"

The only facts of the matter is that the Tea Party has been cheering on shutting down the government since they came into Congress in 2010. 80 of them sent a letter to Boehner that essentially says "Defund Obamacare even if it shuts down the government".

Above 70% of the country don't approve of this technique and are clearly blaming the Republicans for it. Might as well use the Congressional record for toilet paper because the American people aren't buying it.

Got any facts to back that up with? You sound like Opie aka Jay Carney.

[aboutime]

Too simplistic. Republicans wrote a bill with a poison pill in it. Senate took it out and Republicans didn't even try to pass it (even though at times, it seemed they had the votes).

If rolls were reversed, and Democrats put up a CR with anything the Republicans didn't like, I don't know, you pick it, and Republicans did the same, you would be accusing the Democrats for shutting down the government. It's the whole concept of the "poison pill"

The only facts of the matter is that the Tea Party has been cheering on shutting down the government since they came into Congress in 2010. 80 of them sent a letter to Boehner that essentially says "Defund Obamacare even if it shuts down the government".

Above 70% of the country don't approve of this technique and are clearly blaming the Republicans for it. Might as well use the Congressional record for toilet paper because the American people aren't buying it.


Only the American people who so desperately depend on Government to survive, and who probably voted for Obama out of fears they would be accused of being racists...DO NOT APPROVE bingster.
The Democrats, and Obama have a stronghold on the LACK OF INTELLIGENCE of the people who voted for Obama, and who vote for the SAME Democrats every election.
Of course they will blame Republicans. The Democrats have managed to fool so many UNEDUCATED/UNDER-EDUCATED Americans so often. They only follow what the Dems tell them to do because...THEY AREN'T SMART ENOUGH TO THINK ON THEIR OWN.
You forgot to tell us that.

[bingster]

Got any facts to back that up with? You sound like Opie aka Jay Carney.

Sorry, been talking on another forum and these facts have already been repeated again and again.

Letter by Tea Party:
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/09/meet-congress-new-third-party-and-its-leader-junior-senator-texas/69976/

WSJ Poll
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/A_Politics/_Today_Stories_Teases/Oct_poll.pdf

Back and forth of cr's
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/09/30/us/politics/the-back-and-forth-over-the-shutdown.html?_r=0

[bingster]

Only the American people who so desperately depend on Government to survive, and who probably voted for Obama out of fears they would be accused of being racists...DO NOT APPROVE bingster.
The Democrats, and Obama have a stronghold on the LACK OF INTELLIGENCE of the people who voted for Obama, and who vote for the SAME Democrats every election.
Of course they will blame Republicans. The Democrats have managed to fool so many UNEDUCATED/UNDER-EDUCATED Americans so often. They only follow what the Dems tell them to do because...THEY AREN'T SMART ENOUGH TO THINK ON THEIR OWN.
You forgot to tell us that.

I didn't say anything about race. why are you bringing that into the conversation.

"The Democrats, and Obama have a stronghold on the LACK OF INTELLIGENCE" that is hilarious!!! What party is the climate change deniers, "the earth is 3000 years old" people, the "passing the debt limit won't hurt anything" people, the ones who actually think Obama won the election because ACORN stole it (4 years after it's demise). Folks from you party did over 200 tweets calling the new Ms. America a terrorist (She's Indian). You want me to play 30 or 40 clips of your politicians like Sarah Palen, Michelle Bachmann, Louie Gohmert, or those numerous other wack jobs who deny science and don't even know how the female reproductive system works?

Give me a break, man, the Republican Party is the Stupid Party! Just ask Jindall!

What a crack up. Don't go there. I'll spam this thread with way more evidence of idiocy from the conservative side of the aisle than you can ever amass from our side of the aisle. Wow, do you even watch the news?

[aboutime]

I didn't say anything about race. why are you bringing that into the conversation.

"The Democrats, and Obama have a stronghold on the LACK OF INTELLIGENCE" that is hilarious!!! What party is the climate change deniers, "the earth is 3000 years old" people, the "passing the debt limit won't hurt anything" people, the ones who actually think Obama won the election because ACORN stole it (4 years after it's demise). Folks from you party did over 200 tweets calling the new Ms. America a terrorist (She's Indian). You want me to play 30 or 40 clips of your politicians like Sarah Palen, Michelle Bachmann, Louie Gohmert, or those numerous other wack jobs who deny science and don't even know how the female reproductive system works?

Give me a break, man, the Republican Party is the Stupid Party! Just ask Jindall!

You didn't need to say anything about race. Just mention Obama's name in a negative way, and you, or I instantly become a racist.
What you deny, as to race. Is the backbone of your liberal need to make excuses to cover up your fears of being labeled that way.
You remind me of Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men".
You are really threatened by the Truth.

[bingster]

You didn't need to say anything about race. Just mention Obama's name in a negative way, and you, or I instantly become a racist.
What you deny, as to race. Is the backbone of your liberal need to make excuses to cover up your fears of being labeled that way.
You remind me of Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men".
You are really threatened by the Truth.

"Only the American people who so desperately depend on Government to survive, and who probably voted for Obama out of fears they would be accused of being racists...DO NOT APPROVE bingster."

Must have made that sentence up myself. My bad.....

I was really funny that you called our voters stupid, that's hilarious.

[gabosaurus]

Only the American people who so desperately depend on Government to survive, and who probably voted for Obama out of fears they would be accused of being racists...DO NOT APPROVE bingster.

Don't YOU depend on the government to survive? What would happen if the government stopped sending you checks?

[Gaffer]

I didn't say anything about race. why are you bringing that into the conversation.

"The Democrats, and Obama have a stronghold on the LACK OF INTELLIGENCE" that is hilarious!!! What party is the climate change deniers, "the earth is 3000 years old" people, the "passing the debt limit won't hurt anything" people, the ones who actually think Obama won the election because ACORN stole it (4 years after it's demise). Folks from you party did over 200 tweets calling the new Ms. America a terrorist (She's Indian). You want me to play 30 or 40 clips of your politicians like Sarah Palen, Michelle Bachmann, Louie Gohmert, or those numerous other wack jobs who deny science and don't even know how the female reproductive system works?

Give me a break, man, the Republican Party is the Stupid Party! Just ask Jindall!

What a crack up. Don't go there. I'll spam this thread with way more evidence of idiocy from the conservative side of the aisle than you can ever amass from our side of the aisle. Wow, do you even watch the news?

Go for it, spam away. The only thing you can do is name call and accuse. You are a prime example of the ignorant voter that put the dark lord into power in the first place.

ACORN is still alive and well. It's founder was recently at a meeting with the dark one in the white house. They are getting their fraud plans set for 2014.

Prove 200 posts calling Miss America a terrorist were from the republicans or conservatives in general.

I like Sarah, Michelle and Louie. They make perfect sense when they speak, which is more than I can say about your lying bunch. I have never heard any of them deny science or say the earth is 3000 years old. And whatever their religious belief it has nothing to do with their politics.

I don't know what Bobby Jindal has to do with anything.

And finally, I'm a Tea Party guy. I'm also and independent voter and and atheist. So I'm hardly a right wing religious nut. Just right wing.

When did you join the communist party?

[bingster]

Go for it, spam away. The only thing you can do is name call and accuse. You are a prime example of the ignorant voter that put the dark lord into power in the first place.

"Name call and accuse". What else is there? I put out a structured argument and instead of arguing what I said, I received an accusation that my voters are stupid. I responded in kind. Bite me.

Again, I can put up tons of evidence that your voters are a hell of a lot dumber than mine. Have an argument and do not suck.

ACORN is still alive and well. It's founder was recently at a meeting with the dark one in the white house. They are getting their fraud plans set for 2014.

ACORN went out of business in 2009. Sorry, to inform you. Most people already know this. Why don't you post some tin foil hat wearing website link to prove me wrong.

Prove 200 posts calling Miss America a terrorist were from the republicans or conservatives in general.

Your best argument. Very good. Just let me ask you: Would a liberal call anyone a terrorist, or is that the more popular interest of your party? Think about it for a second, and I'm sure you will agree with me.

I like Sarah, Michelle and Louie. They make perfect sense when they speak, which is more than I can say about your lying bunch. I have never heard any of them deny science or say the earth is 3000 years old. And whatever their religious belief it has nothing to do with their politics.

I don't doubt that you do like those guys. Sarah and Michelle are good looking ladies. They, however, have demonstrated again and again that they have a loose (to put it kindly) grasp of current affairs, history, or reality. I would love to post quotes and video if you don't believe me. Gohmert is pretty unimpressive too. I thought his "terrorist babies" to be way far fetched, and only an idiot would think an escape from Christian/Judeo principles would have anything to do with a mass murder in a movie theater.


I don't know what Bobby Jindal has to do with anything.

He's the Louisiana Governor that went on TV and called his own party, the Republican Party, "The Stupid Party." He's an outlier in his party for his well tuned point of view of reality. Good for him.

And finally, I'm a Tea Party guy. I'm also and independent voter and and atheist. So I'm hardly a right wing religious nut. Just right wing.
No surprise there. I'm glad you believe in some reality.
When did you join the communist party?
Ooops, I take that last statement back.

The comment about the earth being 3000 was inaccurate. Strict Christians think the earth is 6000 years old. oops. You never saw the videos of Republicans denying evolution or science? I'd be happy to post some if you're interested. The worse came from a guy on the House Science Committee. Dudes a doctor and he doesn't even believe in embryology. Hopefully, he doesn't specialize in OB/GYN.

[aboutime]

Don't YOU depend on the government to survive? What would happen if the government stopped sending you checks?


Sure do. And I EARNED everything the HONEST way. Not as handouts, or pretending to be unable to work. Thirty years defending, and protecting IDIOTS like you. And all you can do is make snide, stupid remarks?
I also protected the Constitution you now want to get rid of. You know? The same constitution that can never take away your right to be STUPID, or IGNORANT.

[Gaffer]

Ooops, I take that last statement back.

The comment about the earth being 3000 was inaccurate. Strict Christians think the earth is 6000 years old. oops. You never saw the videos of Republicans denying evolution or science? I'd be happy to post some if you're interested. The worse came from a guy on the House Science Committee. Dudes a doctor and he doesn't even believe in embryology. Hopefully, he doesn't specialize in OB/GYN.

What do you mean by "your voters" are you harry reid? You lie like harry. You spout hate like harry. You have many of harry's traits.

When did you join the communist party?

And please do post all the repubs denying science. Go for it. There's more stupid comments by your party than by repubs. Like the guy that thought more Marines being sent to Guam would cause it to tip over. And then there's jokin joe, the gaff master. He's been kept under wraps for months now because he can't keep his mouth shut.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Ooops, I take that last statement back.

The comment about the earth being 3000 was inaccurate. Strict Christians think the earth is 6000 years old. oops. You never saw the videos of Republicans denying evolution or science? I'd be happy to post some if you're interested. The worse came from a guy on the House Science Committee. Dudes a doctor and he doesn't even believe in embryology. Hopefully, he doesn't specialize in OB/GYN. Go for it if you can. So I can bring in Obama's many , many gaffes. 57 states!! --:laugh2: :laugh: :laugh2:-Tyr

[bingster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBy3MbP4WDo

[bingster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjNZSJUYDbA

[bingster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e15tM61eD0

[bingster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhgmdVOcWAw

[bingster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NabVoSJoBf8

[bingster]

I'm skipping two Congressmen who said really stupid things about a woman's reproductive system. In fact, come to think of it, I think a third one came out after the last election. There are countless Republicans who want to insert "Intelligent Design" as an "alternate opinion" in science class along with evolution (those that don't want to ban evolution in school, that it). Sorry, not an opinion, just something out of an old creaky book. Teaching "Intelligent Design" in science class is like teaching evolution in Sunday School---it's exactly that stupid!

Pay close attention to my Texas video I posted. This is a Texas Republican Platform that says it believes in the US Constitution and then lists about 6 different ways it would like to violate it.

Seperation of Church and State is another point of ignorance in your party. Michelle Bachmann (idiot) came out and announced (like she just graduated grade school) that in fact, "seperation between Church and State" is not in the Constitution! No sh1t Sherlock, but that's what the 1st Amendment means, so says dozens of Supreme Court cases. You really shouldn't allow that woman to approach a microphone (let alone wandering alone out of doors).

I can list many many more things. Go ahead and post your gaffs. You'll notice a stark difference between what I post and your gaffes. These aren't gaffes! THESE PEOPLE ARE THIS STUPID!!!

[Gaffer]

Wow, propaganda videos, good work there harry. To quote jafar "your taking things out of context and from hate sites." You just showed me you have nothing.

So tell me what's false about fast and furious, Benghazi, the IRS, NSA, and all the other very real scandals going on in DC today.

The boy king got his way using threats and terrorism. Congress caved like spineless jelly fish. We will get to watch this show again in February when congress will cave again. He's now got a rubber stamp from all of congress. Like soviet russia he's establishing his one party system. You must be proud. Do you have a place established in the administration yet? Maybe gulag commander?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBy3MbP4WDo Hey, weasel I did not mean post your crap on this thread. Start a thread on the subject or are you too ignorant to understand such a simple concept. Hijacking this thread must be a natural impulse with you but they frown on crap like that around here. Want a war on who is the most stupid I suggest you start a thread and stop hijacking this thread.--Tyr

[aboutime]

I'm skipping two Congressmen who said really stupid things about a woman's reproductive system. In fact, come to think of it, I think a third one came out after the last election. There are countless Republicans who want to insert "Intelligent Design" as an "alternate opinion" in science class along with evolution (those that don't want to ban evolution in school, that it). Sorry, not an opinion, just something out of an old creaky book. Teaching "Intelligent Design" in science class is like teaching evolution in Sunday School---it's exactly that stupid!

Pay close attention to my Texas video I posted. This is a Texas Republican Platform that says it believes in the US Constitution and then lists about 6 different ways it would like to violate it.

Seperation of Church and State is another point of ignorance in your party. Michelle Bachmann (idiot) came out and announced (like she just graduated grade school) that in fact, "seperation between Church and State" is not in the Constitution! No sh1t Sherlock, but that's what the 1st Amendment means, so says dozens of Supreme Court cases. You really shouldn't allow that woman to approach a microphone (let alone wandering alone out of doors).

I can list many many more things. Go ahead and post your gaffs. You'll notice a stark difference between what I post and your gaffes. These aren't gaffes! THESE PEOPLE ARE THIS STUPID!!!



bingster. At least, all of us never need to worry, or be concerned with YOU being involved, or anywhere near what you call INTELLIGENT anything.
You are the winner in proving how little you have, and for that. We all thank you.
Say hi to CON HOG for us too!

[Kathianne]

What do you mean by "your voters" are you harry reid? You lie like harry. You spout hate like harry. You have many of harry's traits.

When did you join the communist party?

And please do post all the repubs denying science. Go for it. There's more stupid comments by your party than by repubs. Like the guy that thought more Marines being sent to Guam would cause it to tip over. And then there's jokin joe, the gaff master. He's been kept under wraps for months now because he can't keep his mouth shut.

Got to love this, professor admits his conclusions contradicted his assumptions:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/tea-party-science-98488.html?hp=r3


By TAL KOPAN (http://www.politico.com/reporters/TalKopan.html) | 10/17/13 1:53 PM EDT Updated: 10/17/13 3:42 PM EDT
A finding in a study on the relationship between science literacy and political ideology surprised the Yale professor behind it: Tea party members know more science than non-tea partiers.


Yale law professor Dan Kahan posted (http://www.culturalcognition.net/blog/2013/10/15/some-data-on-education-religiosity-ideology-and-science-comp.html) on his blog this week that he analyzed the responses of more than 2,000 American adults recruited for another study and found that, on average, people who leaned liberal were more science literate than those who leaned conservative.



However, those who identified as part of the tea party movement were actually better versed in science than those who didn’t, Kahan found. The findings met the conventional threshold of statistical significance, the professor said.


Kahan wrote that not only did the findings surprise him, they embarrassed him.


“I’ve got to confess, though, I found this result surprising. As I pushed the button to run the analysis on my computer, I fully expected I’d be shown a modest negative correlation between identifying with the Tea Party and science comprehension,” Kahan wrote.


“But then again, I don’t know a single person who identifies with the tea party,” he continued. “All my impressions come from watching cable tv — & I don’t watch Fox News very often — and reading the ‘paper’ (New York Times daily, plus a variety of politics-focused Internet sites like Huffington Post and POLITICO). I’m a little embarrassed, but mainly, I’m just glad that I no longer hold this particular mistaken view.”

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Got to love this, professor admits his conclusions contradicted his assumptions:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/tea-party-science-98488.html?hp=r3 The guy man up to his great folly/ignorance and did so openly. Then dared to openly show that the Conservative /Tea party opposition are not dunces! Expect to see him cut off at the knees soon!! --Tyr

[Gaffer]

If he stops watching the liberal news and reading the liberal newspapers he will become even more knowledgeable.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If he stops watching the liberal news and reading the liberal newspapers he will become even more knowledgeable. Amazing isn't it? Such a simple fix but so few take advantage of it. Wallowing and glorifying in their ignorance is a damn religion with the majority of them IMHO.--Tyr

[revelarts]

Hey bingster if you want to debate intelligent design vs evolution.
lets go to another thread.
it shouldn't take you long, your position is so smart and unassailable I'm sure you can defeat my every crazy religious statement and assertion with pure logic and finally of course tons of irrefutable observable scientific evidence.

But hey if you just want to wave the idea of evolution around in the air as foregone conclusion with a smirk and a chuckle that's good enough to i guess.