Queer enablers = liars

[82Marine89]

.

[Pale Rider]

You think you're acheiving some kind of high ground by referring to me as son? You're an idiot! I have no need to counter your article with another article, I proved that your link about a cure was shit. Unless you post another, preferably credible, it will mean that it was the only one you could come up with.

You haven't "proved" ANYTHING moron... get a mother fucking clue you drug adled, lame brained, slack jawed, cock sucking, faggot lover.

Now that's all you're getting out of me because that's all you deserve. Get with the fucking program and something else may be said or posted. Until then, you're a nobody, a nothing, with even less to say worth reading. Fuck off and die.

[Missileman]

You haven't "proved" ANYTHING moron... get a mother fucking clue you drug adled, lame brained, slack jawed, cock sucking, faggot lover.

Now that's all you're getting out of me because that's all you deserve. Get with the fucking program and something else may be said or posted. Until then, you're a nobody, a nothing, with even less to say worth reading. Fuck off and die.

I proved the following:

1. The article you posted touting a cure was bullshit. It doesn't matter that you don't have sufficient testosterone to admit it.
2. You aren't capable of actually arguing a point.
3. You're a hypocrite! You whine like a little bitch when someone suggests you might be a closet homo, but engage in it yourself.
4. You are in way over your head. You better quit while you're behind.

[LuvRPgrl]

Oh lookee...another idiot who thinks calling me son improves his argument.



No fucktard...curing homosexuality means eliminating the desire to have sex with the same gender.

You don't cure a cold by giving someone the measles. Claiming that since they are predominantly afflicted with the measles that you cured their cold is bullshit.

so you admit there is something wrong with being homosexual.

I notice you didnt answer ANY of my questions.

[My Winter Storm]

Last time I checked, homos only choose others of the same gender, and bi sexuals choose both genders and heterosexuals only choose opposite gender.

I assume you can prove that you chose your orientation?

I assume you sat there and thought 'now should I choose boys, or should I choose girls' and you chose boys, am I right? Was that a concious choice, or was it just that you happened to feel attracted to boys, and not girls?

Ever seen a hot guy before? You know what that feeling is you get, when you see a cute guy, and you think 'gee, he's hot'. Guess what that is?

ATTRACTION stupid!!! You don't look at the guy and CHOOSE to think that he is hot when he actually isn't - it's something out of your control, and not something you can change.

Now, tell me how you chose your sexuality.

[Missileman]

so you admit there is something wrong with being homosexual.

I'll admit that there appears to be something wrong with your eyes...I neither wrote nor suggested any such thing.


I notice you didnt answer ANY of my questions.

Actually, I did answer one of your questions. Which other one(s) would you like me to answer?

[My Winter Storm]

Answer mine, too, girl. Just in case you forget to look over the page.

[Missileman]

Answer mine, too, girl. Just in case you forget to look over the page.

hehe...she's a he!

[My Winter Storm]

hehe...she's a he!

Why on earth does it have 'grl' in the user then? Obviously I'm gonna think it's a girl...:laugh2:

[Pale Rider]

I proved the following:

1. The article you posted touting a cure was bullshit.

You have proved NOTHING!

News flash perversion protector... JUST BECAUSE YOU *THINK* SOMETHING, YOUR *THOUGHTS* ARE NOT *PROOF*!

IF YOU WANT ANYONE HERE, BESIDES ME, TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU *SAY*, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO *PROVE* IT, WITH CREDIBLE *RESEARCH* AND *FACTS*, NOT JUST YOU'RE HOMO ENABLING EXCUSES AND PERVERSION PROTECTING OPINIONS.

The fact of the matter is , and anyone and everyone reading this can see it, you can't find ONE THING to back up what you're saying...... NOT ONE THING!!!!

So guess what son.... YOU'VE BEEN WHIPED... YOU LOSE!!!

[Missileman]

You have proved NOTHING

News flash perversion protector... JUST BECAUSE YOU *THINK* SOMETHING, YOUR *THOUGHTS* ARE NOT *PROOF*!

IF YOU WANT ANYONE HERE, BESIDES ME, TO BELIEVE ANYTHING YOU *SAY*, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO *PROVE* IT, WITH CREDIBLE *RESEARCH* AND *FACTS*, NOT JUST YOU'RE HOMO ENABLING EXCUSES AND PERVERSION PROTECTING OPINIONS.

The fact of the matter is , and anyone and everyone reading this can see it, you can't find ONE THING to back up what you're saying...... NOT ONE THING!!!!

So guess what son.... YOU'VE BEEN WHIPED... YOU LOSE!!!

Lighten up, Francis! If someone posts an article that claims the sky is green, it doesn't take another article to prove that it's wrong. So put away your crayons and delusions that you're my father and post an article that actually shows a cure if you can find one. I suspect that's the reason for your tantrum...the one you posted was your only shot and it turned out to be a dud.

Or better yet, formulate an argument of how creating a bisexual from a homosexual is a cure. You've already posted the article you can use as supporting evidence.

[Pale Rider]

Lighten up, Francis! If someone posts an article that claims the sky is green, it doesn't take another article to prove that it's wrong. So put away your crayons and delusions that you're my father and post an article that actually shows a cure if you can find one. I suspect that's the reason for your tantrum...the one you posted was your only shot and it turned out to be a dud.

Or better yet, formulate an argument of how creating a bisexual from a homosexual is a cure. You've already posted the article you can use as supporting evidence.

Ya know what idiot... YOU are the only one under the delusion that what I posted has no merit, and it's no surprise, I could have posted seven thousand such articles and you'd have said the exact same thing about each and every one of them.

But I going to take a hint from the rest of the board, who are not so noticeably absent from arguing with you. They all see what kind of a thick headed faggot excuse maker and apologist you are. It's senseless to argue or post anything worth while and try and make it sink into that dense fog of homo apologizing you're so sunk into.

When you wake up and smell the coffee, post something other than your homo excuses, maybe, MAYBE I'll respond to you again. But for now, I AM THROUGH WITH YOU. I've proved my point, you haven't.

[Pale Rider]

http://www.narth.com/docs/glatze.pdf

http://www.narth.com/docs/PhelanReportSummaryFact.pdf

Homosexuality 101:
What Every Therapist, Parent, And Homosexual Should Know
Julie Harren, Ph.D., LMFT


Julie Harren, Ph.D., LMFT
Homosexuality is an issue that has often been mishandled by therapists due to misinformation on the topic. Although not supported by the research, many therapists believe that homosexuality is solely biological in nature, and therefore unchangeable. Yet despite ongoing efforts, researchers have not discovered a biological basis for same-sex attractions. In fact, many researchers hypothesize that a homosexual orientation stems from a combination of biological and environmental factors. For example, when asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, gay gene researcher, Dean Hamer, replied, "Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors" (Anastasia, 1995, p. 43). In addition, brain researcher Simon LeVay has acknowledged that multiple factors may contribute to a homosexual orientation (LeVay, 1996).

What, then, are the causes of homosexual attractions? These feelings typically stem from a combination of temperamental factors and environmental factors that occur in a child's life. According to Whitehead and Whitehead (1999), "Human behavior is determined by both nature and nurture. Without genes, you can't act in the environment at all. But without the environment your genes have nothing on which to act" (p. 10). One way of understanding this combination might be expressed in the following equation:

Genes + Brain Wiring + Prenatal Hormonal Environment = Temperament
Parents + Peers + Experiences = Environment
Temperament + Environment = Homosexual Orientation

While environmental factors may include experiences of sexual abuse or other traumatic events, a common contributor to same-sex attractions is a disruption in the development of gender identity. Gender identity refers to a person's view of his or her own gender; that is, his or her sense of masculinity or femininity. Gender identity is formed through the relationships that a child has with the same-sex parent and same-sex peers.

http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html

The Three Phases
Of The Transformative Experience
By Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.


Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.
The client who enters reparative therapy is in the midst of a crisis that is disordering his life. Now, his heart and mind have been opened to the need to look within. His intent is to rid himself of a behavioral problem as quickly as possible, but there will be no quick fixes: to re-order the dis-order, he must first descend into the depths of his deeply felt emotions.

Reparative Body Work
During therapy, he will encounter a course of what we call Body Work. It consists of three phases - (1) the defensive; (2) the core-affective encounter, and (3) a final, integrative phase.

Our client begins the session in the defensive phase, not wanting to face and fully feel the conflict in his life. His state of mind is dominated by self-protection as the therapist attempts to move him beyond his anxiety and into the core-affective phase.

Slowly surrendering his defenses, he will enter into and become overwhelmed by his deepest feelings about his personal struggle. This is the essence of Body Work; while maintaining emotional contact with the therapist, he must fully engage (on a body-memory as well as psychic level) his core-affective state, along with the physical tension responses that retain those feelings.

Then begins the cognitive integration phase, where he attempts to understand how his life history has influenced the behavioral decisions that have brought him into therapy. This is the period of Meaning Transformation, which integrates his life crisis into a larger perspective.

Those three phases of the psychological journey may be understood as a microcosmic sequence of the same personal transformation that is represented in the epic themes of both Greek classic and religious literature. Across time and cultures, the three phases convey the same universal truth about human development.

http://www.narth.com/docs/phases.html

[Pale Rider]

As homosexual men and women across the country strive for their "special rights," civil unions and ultimately same-sex marriages, I can attest firsthand these individuals are making every attempt to resolve their inner homosexual conflict. These are feelings, thoughts and actions most have had ever since childhood. Many have hidden and suppressed their homosexual feelings for so long, until they finally gave in and "came out" to the world. Their inner struggle for self-acceptance has turned into a misguided outward struggle for civil rights. With each battle won on local, state and federal levels, their pillage is America's acceptance and tolerance. While they fill their storehouses with their vain plunder, they tirelessly continue their unending life-long search for their "holy grail": self-acceptance. No matter how hard they search or how long they try, I'm afraid it is something that will never be found.


Homosexuality is clearly an outward expression of things going on much deeper in a person – issues for many originating back to their childhood.


For homosexual men, in most all cases it has everything to do with a lack of relationship with the father. For women, the problem can rest with the mother and/or father or another male figure. For some, molestation or a premature sexual experience was the lead in to the homosexual lifestyle. Whatever the factors may have been to drive someone down that unwanted homosexual path, we must remember one thing: No one was born homosexual. To state such a fact is a tragedy, as well as cop out.


Just as no one is born an alcoholic or a drug addict, the same must be said of the homosexual. "Issues" are what bring a person down these lonely, painful paths – issues when finally dealt with will allow the person to come out of their destructive behavior. You don't need to be a psychologist to figure this one out.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/720747/posts

[Pale Rider]

International Healing Foundation

In the midst of controversy over homosexuality, gay rights and homophobia comes a new understanding of the meaning and causes of homosexuality. Richard Cohen, founder and director of the International Healing Foundation, is a psychotherapist, educator and author who has created a successful program to assist men, women and adolescents in transitioning from homosexuality to heterosexuality. Having spent many years investigating the origins of this condition, Mr. Cohen himself made the change. He now lives in the Washington, DC area with his wife and three children.

Mr. Cohen is available for speaking engagements on the causes and treatment of homosexuality. For information, please e-mail: info@gaytostraight.org

TOPICS FOR PRESENTATION (described in detail below):
Healing Homosexuality: Causes, Cures and Compassion
The Meaning and Causes of Homosexuality
The Process of Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual
Therapeutic Tools and Techniques for Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual
Healing Parent-Child Relationships
Mentoring: Restoring Love
Are Gay Rights Right?
My Story: Coming Out of Homosexuality
"Healing Homosexuality: Causes, Cure and Compassion"

Origin of same-sex attractions
Process of healing homosexuality
Preventing homosexuality in children
In this introductory presentation, Mr. Cohen describes the latest scientific research on the causes of same-sex attractions. He presents clear evidence that there is no scientific data to support a genetic or biologic basis for homosexuality. Next he lists ten major causes of same-sex attractions. Then he describes a four-stage model of recovery, how anyone can transition from homosexual to heterosexual. He also offers five practical ways in which we can bring about positive changes in our community. Finally, he describes ways to prevent homosexuality in children, the signs to look for and what actions to take.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 3 hours

"The Meaning and Causes of Homosexuality"

Scientific research: genetics and biology
Defining same-sex attractions: three hidden meanings
Ten major causes that create a homosexual orientation
Over the past decade, several social scientists have tried to prove that people are born homosexual. Mr. Cohen gives an overview and critique of each of their studies, showing clearly that there is no scientific data to support a genetic or biologic basis for same-sex attractions. Next, Mr. Cohen defines the three basic meanings behind all homosexual desires: 1) need for same-sex parent's love, 2) need for gender identification, and 3) fear of intimacy with the opposite sex. Finally, he details the ten major causes that create same-sex attractions in either men or women: 1) heredity, 2) temperament, 3) hetero-emotional wounds, 4) homo-emotional wounds, 5) sibling wounds / family dynamics, 6) body image wounds, 7) sexual abuse, 8) peer / social wounds, 9) cultural wounds, and 10) intrauterine influences. Through this presentation, all will learn about the origins of same-sex attractions.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 1 day training

"The Process of Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual"

Four-stage model of recovery
Tasks to be accomplished in each stage
Developmental issues in recovery
Through a decade of helping men, women and adolescents come out of homosexuality, Mr. Cohen has created a four-stage model of healing. It has proven successful for those who desire to change. In this presentation, he will describe each stage of recovery and what tasks need to be accomplished in each stage. Next, he will detail a variety of therapeutic tools and techniques to aid in the process of healing. Finally, he will describe various issues that each man and woman coming out of homosexuality needs to address. This talk is helpful for anyone who wishes to assist men, women and adolescents in making the transition from homosexual to heterosexual.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 1 day training

"Therapeutic Tools and Techniques for Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual"

Initial interview
Tools and techniques to aid in recovery
Spiritual, emotional, mental and physical aspects of healing
In this presentation, Mr. Cohen will share some of the tools and techniques that will help facilitate change along the path of healing. First he will describe the initial interview, what to look for and what questions to ask. Next, he will explain how to develop a treatment plan, making a program of recovery for each individual. Then he will describe a variety of therapeutic tools and techniques to use in each stage of healing. By using these skills together with the four-stage model of recovery, any individual who desires to come out of homosexuality may do so. The methods described will equip both the professional and non-professional with practical tools to assist those in recovery. Mr. Cohen will also address the four aspects of healing - spiritual, emotional, mental and physical * and how they relate to the four stages of recovery. No one is born with same-sex attractions. What was learned can be unlearned. Mr. Cohen will shows clearly how this is possible.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 1 - 3 day training

"Healing Parent-Child Relationships"

Homosexual feelings are merely a symptom of a wounded soul looking for love in all the wrong places, in all the wrong ways. Mr. Cohen offers practical suggestions for parents and children to heal past and present wounds. Same-sex attractions represent a need for the same-sex parent's love, a need for gender identity, and/or fear of intimacy with the opposite sex. When these issues are revealed and healed, and the unmet needs fulfilled, any man or woman will naturally come into the fullness of his or her gender identity and heterosexual destiny. To restore or create secure attachment and bonding between parents and children, Mr. Cohen will teach:

Causes of same-sex attractions
Process of healing
Tools for restoring relationships:
Communication skills
Listening skills
Healing activities
Length: 1 hour or 3 hours

"Mentoring: Restoring Love"

Introduction to Mentoring
Roles and responsibilities of the mentor
Roles and responsibilities of the adult-child
Anyone who did not experience successful bonding, love and intimacy with either father and or mother, seeks to heal these needs in other relationships or activities. Mentoring is a way to heal the parent-child relationship. This model is useful to heal both homo-emotional and hetero-emotional wounds (wounding that occurred with either the same-sex parent and or opposite-sex parent). It is imperative to set clear boundaries in this healing relationship, therefore Mr. Cohen will present the basic roles and responsibilities of the both the mentor and adult-child. Through such mentoring relationships, past trauma may be healed and unmet needs fulfilled.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 3 hours

"Are Gay Rights Right?"

Brief history of the homosexual movement
Goals, strategies and agenda of the Gay Rights Movement
What we can do to effect positive changes in our communities
Over the past four decades a veritable revolution has taken place in America and throughout the world. There are thousands of homosexual bars throughout the country. Every major city has a homosexual newspaper. Churches ordain homosexual ministers and marry homosexual couples. Almost every college, university and now high school campus has "gay and lesbian" student organizations. The American Psychiatric and Psychological Associations along with the American Medical Association have declared homosexuality a normal, alternative lifestyle. Many states and cities throughout America have passed special legislation for homosexuals. Several countries in the world recognize homosexual marriages. Mr. Cohen will give a brief history of the homosexual movement and how they have accomplished so much in such a short period of time. He will then present ways in which we can help create positive changes in our schools, communities, churches and local government * sharing the truth with love.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 3 hours

"My Story" Coming Out of Homosexuality"

Mr. Cohen shares his personal story of how he came out of homosexuality. For many years he struggled with same-sex attractions. He prayed for God to take the desires away, but they continued. He was raised in the Jewish faith and became a Christian in college. At that time he had a boyfriend of three years. Finally through his study of the Word and conviction from God, Richard terminated his relationship with his boyfriend. Nine years later Richard married, however he had suppressed his same-sex attractions. It took many trials and attempts to heal the wounds that created these desires. Finally the Lord delivered him out of homosexuality. Today he is happily married and has three beautiful children. Over the past decade, he has helped hundreds of men, women and adolescents come out of homosexuality. He is the author of several books on the causes and treatment of same-sex attractions. He has appeared on "Larry King Live," "20/20," and "The O'Reilly Factor." He has been featured on numerous radio talk shows throughout the country.
Length: 10 - 40 minutes (more or less as the situation warrants)

Click Here To Read Our Free Newsletter! Donate to IHF




International Healing Foundation
P.O. Box 901, Bowie, MD 20718
Tel. (301) 805-6111 / Fax (301) 805-5155
Email: info@gaytostraight.org

http://www.gaytostraight.org/speaking.htm

[Pale Rider]

CHANGE OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION — REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

=======================================

3) PATIENTS TREATED BY PSYCHOTHERAPY
=======================================

Berg, C., Allen, C. (1958) The problem of homosexuality. NY: Citadel Press.

SUBJECTS: 13 males, 1 females.

METHOD: Psychoanalytically oriented therapy

RESULTS: 11 (10 males, 1 female) apparent cures, 1 social cure, 1 failure


=======================================

Berger, J. (1994) The psychotherapeutic treatment of male homosexuality. American Journal of Psychotherapy. 48, 2: 251 - 261.

ABSTRACT: "In recent years very few psychodynamic contributions to the aetiology or treatment of male homosexual behavior have been made. This paper based on material from patients, and noting the contributions of others, indicates that such patients can be understood and treated successfully."

"A possible aetiological factor that has not been mentioned before in the literature, the abortion of a pregnancy conceived by the male patient may have led to the patient 'coming out' or declaring his homosexuality, is discussed."

"Three main conclusions are reached. First that human sexuality is not rigidly compartmentalized into either hetero- or homosexuality but varies on a continuous spectrum, and is affected in any individual by psychodynamic influences. Second, that before 'coming out,' young people should have the opportunity to explore their sexual identity with a psychodynamically oriented psychotherapist. Third, that some patients whose fantasies and behavior have been homosexual at some time, can become comfortably and fulfillingly heterosexual with psychotherapeutic treatment."

SUBJECTS: 3 homosexual men.

ABORTION: Abortion triggers homosexual behavior in two patients. Turning away from women did not totally relieve anxiety and other symptoms emerged.

CASE: 1 male turned to homosexuality after his baby was aborted. After therapy he experienced pleasurably heterosexual relations with occasional homosexual fantasies; 1 male, narcissistic personality, after abortion exclusively homosexual, left therapy and remained homosexual; 1 male, before therapy homosexual fantasies and encounters, after therapy, married, heterosexually fulfilling, 3 children, fears acting on occasional fleeting homosexual fantasies, but has not acted out in 20 years.


================================================== ========

Bergler, E. (1962) Homosexuality: Disease or Way of Life. NY: Collier Books.

DEFINITION OF CHANGE: "And 'cure' denotes not bisexuality, but real and unfaked heterosexuality."

THEORY: Homosexuals are severe, psychic, masochists who unconsciously reject love, admiration, approval and kindness, and posses wishes for exact opposite -- pain, humiliation, reject, and conflict.

SUBJECTS: 250 homosexuals seen for treatment, 150 sent to colleagues.

RESULTS: 112 cases successful treated, 50 successes by colleagues.

Many of those not changed did not complete treatment.

CHANGE: "In nearly thirty years, I have successfully concluded analyses of one hundred homosexuals... and have seen nearly five hundred cases in consultation. On the basis of the experience thus gathered, I make the positive statement that homosexuality has an excellent prognosis in psychiatric-psychoanalytic treatment of one to two years' duration, with a minimum of three appointments each week -- provided the patient really wishes to change. A considerable number of colleagues have achieved similar success. "


-------------

Bergler, E. (1961) Counterfeit Sex. NY. Grove Press

-------------

Bergler, E. (1959) One Thousand Homosexuals. Patterson, NJ: Pagent.

=====================================

Beukenkamp, C. (1960) Phantom Patricide. Archives of General Psychiatry. 3: 282 - 288.

SUBJECT: 1 male, sought treatment following arrest for soliciting in a public washroom.

METHOD: Psychoanalytic analysis, plus group therapy.

RESULTS: Recovered, married


===================================

Bieber, I., Dain, H., Dince, P., Drellich, M. Grand, H., Gundlach, R., Kremer, M., Rifkin, A., Wilbur, C., Bieber, T. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytical Study. NY: Vintage.

SUBJECTS: 106 homosexual men, 100 controls, all in psychoanalysis.

CASE

METHOD: Psychoanalysis with male and female therapists, reports from the therapists. Careful analysis of each case: childhood experiences systematically compared with results of therapy.

RESULTS: 29 patients had become exclusively heterosexual during the course of psychoanalytic treatment. Of those who were exclusively homosexual before treatment 19% became exclusively heterosexual, 19% bisexual. Of those who were bisexual before treatment 50% became exclusively heterosexual.(276)

DISORDER: "The capacity to adapt homosexually is, in a sense a tribute to man's biosocial resources in the face of thwarted heterosexual goal-achievement. Sexual gratification is not renounced; instead, fears and inhibitions associated with heterosexuality are circumvented and sexual responsivity with pleasure and excitement to a member of the same sex develops as a pathologic alternative."(303)

"Any adaptation which is basically an accommodation to unrealistic fear is necessarily pathologic; in the adult homosexual continued fear of heterosexuality is inappropriate to his current reality. We differ with other investigators who have taken the position that homosexuality is a kind of variant of 'normal' sexual behavior."

FATHER: "We have come to the conclusion that a constructive, supportive, warmly related father precludes the possibility of a homosexual son; he acts as a neutralizing protective agent should the mother make seductive or close binding attempts."(311)


-------------

Bieber, I. (1965) Clinical aspects of male homosexuality (in Marmor, J. (ed.) Sexual Inversion: The Multiple Roots of Homosexuality. NY: Basic Books.) 248 - 267.

-------------

Bieber, I. (1967) Homosexuality. (in Freeman, A., Kaplan, H. (eds) Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins.) 963 - 976.

---------------

Bieber, I. (1977) Sexuality: 1956 -1976. Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis. 5, 2: 195 - 205.

----------------

Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male Homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5: 409 - 421.

CHANGE: "We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%".


-----------------

Bieber, T. (1967) On treating male homosexuals. Archives of General Psychiatry. 16, 68.

=========================================

Braaten, L., Darling, C. (1965) Overt and covert homosexual problems among male college students. Genetic Psychology Monographs. 71:269 - 310.

SUBJECT: 76 male (42 overt homosexuals, 32 covert) 50 male controls

METHOD: Psychotherapy

RESULTS: 12 (29%) of overt homosexuals moving toward heterosexuality, 7 (21%) of the covert.


==========================================

Caprio, F. (1954) Female Homosexuality: A Psychodynamic Study of Lesbianism. NY: Citadel Press.

CASE HISTORIES: Review of early literature and treatment.

THEORY: "Lesbianism is a symptom not a disease entity. It is the result of a deep-seated neurosis which involves narcissistic gratifications and sexual immaturity. It also represents a neurotic defense mechanism for feelings of insecurity -- a compromise solution for unresolved conflicts involving one's relationship during childhood and adolescence to one's parents."

THERAPY: " Lesbians can be cured if they are earnest in their desire to be cured. Adequate self-knowledge via psychoanalysis is essential to effect a permanent cure. Psychoanalysis and psychotherapy constitute today the most effective means of treating sexual inversions. Since lesbianism is a symptom of a personality disorder, it may be reiterated that treatment must be aimed at influencing the personality structure rather than the treatment of homosexuality as though it were a disease entity."

RESULTS: "Many patients of mine, who were formerly lesbians, have communicated long after treatment was terminated, informing me that they are happily married and are convinced that they will never return to a homosexual way of life."

http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/change2.html

[Pale Rider]

2. Reparative Therapy-"Homo-Emotional love need" is an unconscious drive for bonding between a same-gender parent and child

A. Moberly
Early Trauma-disrupts the normal attachment - Le., physical separation, or an emotionally unavailable parent, or emotional or sexual abuse.

Perceived Rejection - child perceives that the parent has rejected him or her

Defensive Detachment- Lacking a positive relationship with his father, the boy "defensively detaches" from any potential friendships with other boys his own age.

Dis-identification - child reacts against identifying with same-sex parent

Same-Sex Ambivalence- child pushes parent away due to hurt, pulls parent back due to unmet needs

Eroticisation - during puberty, the "emotional need for closeness and identification with others of our sex becomes a sexualized need, with members of our own sex being the object of both our sexual and emotional desires

Reparative Drive - because the unmet needs continue to exist, there is a drive or "pull" inside the child to attach to parent in order to meet these needs

B. Nicolosi
Incomplete gender identification-- Many homosexuals are attracted to other men and their maleness because they are striving to complete their own gender identification. Due to incomplete development of aspects of his masculine identity, the homosexual seeks to "repair" his deficits through erotic contact with an idealized other.

Gender identity and sexual orientation-- The causal rule of reparative therapy is "Gender identity determines sexual orientation." We eroticize what we are not identified with. The focus of treatment therefore is the full development of the client's masculine gender identity.

Therapy: Past and Present Issues
a-Past
mother-- probably failed to accurately reflect his authentic masculine identity; over-identification with grandmother; aunts or older sisters

father-- under-involved and emotionally withholding. He has typically failed to recognize the boy both as an autonomous individual and a masculine child

same gender peerslsiblings-- hurtful childhood relationships with male peers, and often a hurtful relationship with a domineering older brother

b-Present-

Power-- the client has given up his sense of intrinsic power. Intrinsic power is one's view of self as separate and independent. Failure to fully claim one's gender identity always results in a loss of intrinsic power

eroticisation-- his masculine deficit becomes projected onto idealized males--"The other man has something I lack-*therefore I need to be close to him sexually."

transformation-- "I do not really want to have sex with a man. Rather, what I really desire is to heal my masculinity." This healing will occur when the legitimate love needs of male attention, affection and approval are satisfied.

http://www.jeramyt.org/gay/exgayseminar.html

[Pale Rider]

Homosexuality, a Learned behavior


And outrageously taught in public schools!
"There is no evidence that genetic or hormonal factors play any role in the development of homosexuality. Although homosexuality has its origins in disturbed family dynamics during early childhood, it can nevertheless be treated successfully." ~ William P. Wilson, Professor of Psychiatry; Dulce University Medical School

"There is no connection between sexual instinct and choice of sexual object. Such an object is learned, acquired behavior; there is no genetically inborn propensity toward a partner of the same sex." ~ Dr. Charles Socarides (author of Homosexuality: Concepts and Psychodynamics)

"Homosexuality is acquired and discovered as a circumventive adaptation for coping with fear of heterosexuality. Pleasure and excitement to a member of the same sex develops as a pathological alternative." ~ Irving Bieber (author of Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals)

"Irrational fear, in every case I have seen, played the leading role in inducing the individual to become homosexual in the first place or inducing him to maintain his acquired hemophilic conditioning in the second place." ~ Dr Albert Ellis (author of Homosexuality: It’s Causes and Cures)

"Homosexuality is not a sexual problem but a problem of identity—specifically, a gender identity problem. From my clinical experience, people who say ‘I was just born that way’ are saying, in effect, ‘I don’t want to acknowledge those childhood influences that contributed to my sexual orientation.’ " ~ Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. (author of Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality)

"I see homosexuality as an addiction or compulsion to get around childhood pain. Homosexuality is neither inborn nor unchangeable. Anything can be changed once a person is committed to making that change in his or her life." ~ Judy Taylor, M.A. Therapist

These are just a handful of hundreds of reports not picked up by a liberal media or our liberal education system, much less the dramatic medical painful consequences of anal sex. How long before a parent sues the school district for indoctrination of homosexuality? I suggest the parents of students at Mepham High School should consider it.

SOURCE: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/eloewen/gay.html

http://www.blessedcause.org/Indoctrination/Homosexuality%20Learned%20Behavior.htm

[Pale Rider]

9) RESPONSES TO CRITICS OF THERAPY


======================================

Bieber, I. (1976) A discussion of "Homosexuality: The ethical challenge." Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. 44, 2: 163 -166.

Response to Davison (1976)

ETHICS: "Davison's thesis is simple is assumes that homosexuality is a normal sexual mode in the wide spectrum of human sexuality and that the psychological problems noted among homosexuals directly derive from societal prejudices. He suggests, therefore, that it is unethical for clinicians to cooperate with homosexuals who wish to change their sexual direction."

FAMILY: "In most cases, the mother was indeed overly close, inappropriately intimate with her son, intrusive, overprotective, and demasculinizing, but the most striking of our findings was the consistency of a seriously disturbed father-son relationship. In not one homosexual case could the father's attitude be described as affectionate or even reasonably constructive. Mostly, the fathers were reported as detached, and/or openly hostile or "never there." Children perceive detachment as hostility, which in fact it is. One is not unremittingly detached from a love object. These sons emerged from the paternal influence hating and fearing their father on the one hand and deeply yearning for paternal affection on the other."

FATHER: "If one were to choose any single criterion on which to base a prognosis for change, it is the degree of pathology of the father-son relationship. Where some positive elements exist there is comparatively less existing pathology and the prognosis for change is more encouraging."

"Since 1962, I have examined about 850 male homosexuals in psychiatric consultation. ... I also examined about 50 pairs of parents whose sons were homosexual. This sizable sample of parents and sons confirmed our research findings. In not a single case was there a good father-son relationship. In general, the parents' relationship with each other was also poor. Mothers tended to be complainingly dissatisfied with their husbands and openly preferred their son to their spouse."

CHANGE: "The goal [of therapy] is to resolve as much of a patient's psychopathology as can be accomplished. When irrational beliefs and idea systems that distort interpersonal relationships are clarified and corrected, significant changes in various areas of personality and behavior occur." (p.166)


======================================

Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283 -305.

RELIGION: Throckmorton is critical of those who pressure homosexual clients to change their religious beliefs."For instance, Barrett and Barzan (1996) in their article concerning spiritual and the gay experience, suggest that "assisting gay and lesbians to step away from external religious authority may challenge the counselor's own acceptance of religious teachings."(p.8) According to Barrett and Barzan (1996), "most counselors will benefit from a model that help them understand the difference between spiritual and religious authority." (p.8)

Wolpe (1973) candidly reports on this tension in his work with a gay client in the 1950s. He described the case of a 32-year-old male who had never experienced sexual attraction or relations with women. The man had "formed a succession of attachments to men with whom he had sexual relations." (p.258) However, he also felt such relations were against his religious belief causing severe anxiety. Wolpe chose to attempt to minimize his religious objections via giving him a book to read. While the client felt some guilt reduction, he still wished to "overcome his homosexuality" (Wolpe, 1973, p.259)Wolpe refused on the basis of a belief in the genetic basis for homosexuality. The client continued in assertiveness training, however, which resulted in significant reduction in anxiety and improvement in job performance. After several months, the man reported to Wolpe that he had become unable to have sex with men and was feeling attracted to a woman. Through the next year, he became sexually active with women and finally married. After a 3-year follow-up, Wolpe described the client's heterosexual sex life as "in every way satisfactory" (p.261).

"Since religion is one of the client attributes that mental health counselors are ethically bound to respect, counselors should take great care in advising those clients dissatisfied with same-gender sexual orientation due to their religious beliefs. To accommodate such clients counselors should develop expertise in methods of sexual reorientation or develop appropriate referral resources." (p. 301)


=====================================

Tripp, C. Hatterer, L. (1971) Can homosexuals change with Psychotherapy? Sexual Behavior. 1, 4: 42 - 49.

Excerpts from a transcribed discussion:

CHANGE: Dr. T. "I know Dr. Hatterer believes he has 'cured' homosexuals; similar claims have often been made. I have never seen a major change in any adult's sexual response, although patients on other therapists' 'cure' list (not yet Dr. Hatterer's) often come to me and to other therapists I know because they do not want to 'disappoint' their first doctor. In any event, there is not a single recorded instance of a change in homosexual orientation which has been validated by outside judges or testing. Kinsey wasn't able to find one. And neither Dr. Pomeroy nor I have been able to find such a patient. We would be happy to have one from Dr. Hatterer.

Dr. H. "I have 'cured' many homosexuals, Dr. Tripp. Dr. Pomeroy or any other researcher may examine my work because it is all documented on 10 years of tape recordings. Many of these 'cured' (I prefer to use the word 'changed') patients have married, had families and live happy lives. It is a destructive myth that 'once a homosexual, always a homosexual." It has made and will make millions more committed homosexuals. What is more, not only have I but many other reputable psychiatrists (Dr. Samuel B. Hadden, Dr. Lionel Ovesey, Dr. Charles Socarides, Dr. Harold Lief, Dr. Irving Bieber, and others) have reported their successful treatments of the treatable homosexual.

Dr. Tripp. There is quite a misunderstanding here as to what constitutes fundamental change...


----


DISORDER: Dr. H. I have treated numerous young men who were supposedly disturbed by their 'homosexuality.' But I do not look upon homosexuality as an entity. Rather it is a common symptom which appears in many individuals in response to innumerable, dissimilar situations.

--

PROMISCUITY: Dr. T. But I know of many, many homosexual couples who do stay together for ten, twenty, and many more years. They evidence quite the same mutual concern for each other's well-being found in warm and stable marriages.

Dr. H. Your experience is very different from mine. The homosexuals I have seen were in the main disgusted with the brevity of their relationships, disgusted by how they squandered their time, interfered with their work, dispensed with their integrity , and sacrificed hopes of an enduring relationship and family life by their driven pursuit of homosexual sex partners.

--

Dr. T... I have a sample of 32 couples who have been together more than twenty-five years.

Dr. H. Are they still together sexually?

Dr. T. Yes, but not usually exclusively.

Dr. H. I have seen men who lived together for periods of five or seven years, but rarely for twenty. And those who do stay together generally allow each other a lot of freedom sexually, or they will both invite a third party in for sex relations. The sexual involvement declines or disappears.

Dr. T. Yes, that is often the case and it seems to work very well.

---

Dr. T. All sexual arrangements work. Homosexuality especially works because it has very minor differences from heterosexuality; the overlap is tremendous and the differences are essentially trivial. But all sexual patterns work. Sadomasochistic relationships work, transvestitism works, even transsexualism for those individuals who manage to achieve the bodily changes they want.

Dr. H. I would strongly suggest Dr. Tripp examine in greater depth his word works' when applied to all those situations he refers to. I believe he confuses it with 'survive' Obviously millions of men practicing homosexuality are productive at work and would report some periods of sexual happiness with their partners either in or out of sustained relationships.

--

Dr. T. Let me get your reactions to a situation that we who do therapy with homosexuals have often heard about. There are about five or six Turkish baths in New York City that are frequented exclusively by persons who want to engage in homosexual acts. There used to be one near the train station that was a "commuters' bath' in that many of the customers were married men stopped off before they went home. They were primarily heterosexual, but engaged in this sporadically. If their lives were happy and well managed, would you say they were necessarily neurotic? Incidentally, many patients report that these men want to be passive in anal intercourse.

Dr. H. That's a big if. In order to answer the question it would be necessary to investigate what was happening with these men and their wives at home. You are right that such men want to be 'serviced by males or summit to them. But why? What and who drives them to such practices.

--

Dr. T.... To see 'humiliations' and 'sadism ' in the picture is quite unwarranted. Nor do labels of 'abnormal' help... From my point of view, there is no indication that fundamental changes in anybody's sex life are ever wrought by therapy, nor would they be particularly desirable anyway. A person's best sexual orientation is the one that helps him get the most out of himself, spontaneously. Killing off his guilt and his childish expectation that conformity is the road to heaven but tend to give him confidence and the energy to make a much smoother social integration... Since homosexuality is an alternate orientation and not a disease, 'cure' is patently impossible. What passes for 'cure' is surface symptom suppression or outright avoidance.

---

CHANGE: Dr. H. You define cure in one way; I define it in another. I see the patients sexual life in the context of his entire life style.

I had a patient recently who has had a rather extensive homosexual history . He's married now and having seven heterosexual orgasms a week. He has occasional homosexual fantasies when under pressure or stress, which has nothing to do with his homosexual responsiveness but rather with his neurotic use of homosexual sex.


================================================

Richardson, D. (1993) Recent challenges to traditional assumptions about homosexuality: Some implications for practice.(in Garnets, L., Kimmel, D. Psychological Perspectives on Lesbian Gay Males Experiences. NY: Columbia.) 117 -129.

This article challenges the idea of sexual orientation as unchangeable, while supporting the idea that homosexuality is a positive choice, and responses to Silverstein, Davidson and other writers quoted above.

Excerpts from the article.

CHANGE: "During the last decade there has been a change in professional attitudes toward homosexuality reflected in the development of new models of treatment. Rather than offering a cure the aim is to help homosexuals adjust positively to their orientation. Such attitudinal change on the part of the practitioners has not, in the main, questioned the fundamental assumptions of theories that seek to explain homosexuality. Recent theoretical inquiry into homosexuality, however, has done this, posing an important challenge to the traditionally held view that people have an essential sexuality that is either homosexual or heterosexual and that remains fixed and unchanged throughout their lives. This paper addresses some of the more important clinical implications of these recent developments, in particular, the suggestion that 'the homosexual' as a certain type of person is an 'invention.' In addition, the therapeutic value and difficulties associated with an acknowledgment that sexual preference and identity may change over time are considered. Finally, there is a consideration of what the goals should be in the case of the person who seeks professional help in changing from a homosexual to a heterosexual orientation."

"The notion of the 'homosexual' is, Plummer (1981) suggested an 'invention': it is a categorization specific to certain societies and particular historical periods. On this basis it is not possible to make a direct comparison between 'homosexuality' in present day Western society with 'homosexuality' in different cultures and historical periods..."

"As a limited number of studies have shown (e.g. Pattison and Pattison 1980; Ponse 1978) despite the widespread belief that sexual 'orientation' is a permanent characteristic, individuals may undergo one or more redefinitions of sexual identity during their life time.

"Once homosexuality is defined with a society as a way of being people will frequently reconstruct their past in keeping with their present identification as homosexual (Richardson 1981). This may take the form of their saying 'I must have really been gay all along," it being a case of their 'real' selves having been 'suppressed' until they identified themselves as homosexual. This process of reconstruction may still occur even when it runs counter to a previous identification as heterosexual and a prior absence of homosexual attraction."

-----------

Plummer, K.(1981) Going gay: Identities, life cycles and life styles in the male gay world (in Hart, J., Richardson, D. (ed) The theory and Practices of Homosexuality.. London: Routledge) 93 - 110.

Ponse, B. (1978) Identities in the Lesbian World: The Social Construction of Self. Westport CT: Greenwood Press

Richardson, D. (1981) Lesbian Identities ( in Hart, J., Richardson, D. (ed) The theory and Practices of Homosexuality.. London: Routledge) 111 - 124.

Richardson, D. (1984) The dilemma of essentiality in homosexual theory. Journal of Homosexuality. 9, 2/3: 79 - 90.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/change5.html#9)

[Missileman]

http://www.narth.com/docs/glatze.pdf

http://www.narth.com/docs/PhelanReportSummaryFact.pdf

Homosexuality 101:
What Every Therapist, Parent, And Homosexual Should Know
Julie Harren, Ph.D., LMFT


Julie Harren, Ph.D., LMFT
Homosexuality is an issue that has often been mishandled by therapists due to misinformation on the topic. Although not supported by the research, many therapists believe that homosexuality is solely biological in nature, and therefore unchangeable. Yet despite ongoing efforts, researchers have not discovered a biological basis for same-sex attractions. In fact, many researchers hypothesize that a homosexual orientation stems from a combination of biological and environmental factors. For example, when asked if homosexuality was rooted solely in biology, gay gene researcher, Dean Hamer, replied, "Absolutely not. From twin studies, we already know that half or more of the variability in sexual orientation is not inherited. Our studies try to pinpoint the genetic factors...not negate the psychosocial factors" (Anastasia, 1995, p. 43). In addition, brain researcher Simon LeVay has acknowledged that multiple factors may contribute to a homosexual orientation (LeVay, 1996).

What, then, are the causes of homosexual attractions? These feelings typically stem from a combination of temperamental factors and environmental factors that occur in a child's life. According to Whitehead and Whitehead (1999), "Human behavior is determined by both nature and nurture. Without genes, you can't act in the environment at all. But without the environment your genes have nothing on which to act" (p. 10). One way of understanding this combination might be expressed in the following equation:

Genes + Brain Wiring + Prenatal Hormonal Environment = Temperament
Parents + Peers + Experiences = Environment
Temperament + Environment = Homosexual Orientation

While environmental factors may include experiences of sexual abuse or other traumatic events, a common contributor to same-sex attractions is a disruption in the development of gender identity. Gender identity refers to a person's view of his or her own gender; that is, his or her sense of masculinity or femininity. Gender identity is formed through the relationships that a child has with the same-sex parent and same-sex peers.

http://www.narth.com/docs/hom101.html

The Three Phases
Of The Transformative Experience
By Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.


Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D.
The client who enters reparative therapy is in the midst of a crisis that is disordering his life. Now, his heart and mind have been opened to the need to look within. His intent is to rid himself of a behavioral problem as quickly as possible, but there will be no quick fixes: to re-order the dis-order, he must first descend into the depths of his deeply felt emotions.

Reparative Body Work
During therapy, he will encounter a course of what we call Body Work. It consists of three phases - (1) the defensive; (2) the core-affective encounter, and (3) a final, integrative phase.

Our client begins the session in the defensive phase, not wanting to face and fully feel the conflict in his life. His state of mind is dominated by self-protection as the therapist attempts to move him beyond his anxiety and into the core-affective phase.

Slowly surrendering his defenses, he will enter into and become overwhelmed by his deepest feelings about his personal struggle. This is the essence of Body Work; while maintaining emotional contact with the therapist, he must fully engage (on a body-memory as well as psychic level) his core-affective state, along with the physical tension responses that retain those feelings.

Then begins the cognitive integration phase, where he attempts to understand how his life history has influenced the behavioral decisions that have brought him into therapy. This is the period of Meaning Transformation, which integrates his life crisis into a larger perspective.

Those three phases of the psychological journey may be understood as a microcosmic sequence of the same personal transformation that is represented in the epic themes of both Greek classic and religious literature. Across time and cultures, the three phases convey the same universal truth about human development.

http://www.narth.com/docs/phases.html

Where's the cure?

[Missileman]

As homosexual men and women across the country strive for their "special rights," civil unions and ultimately same-sex marriages, I can attest firsthand these individuals are making every attempt to resolve their inner homosexual conflict. These are feelings, thoughts and actions most have had ever since childhood. Many have hidden and suppressed their homosexual feelings for so long, until they finally gave in and "came out" to the world. Their inner struggle for self-acceptance has turned into a misguided outward struggle for civil rights. With each battle won on local, state and federal levels, their pillage is America's acceptance and tolerance. While they fill their storehouses with their vain plunder, they tirelessly continue their unending life-long search for their "holy grail": self-acceptance. No matter how hard they search or how long they try, I'm afraid it is something that will never be found.


Homosexuality is clearly an outward expression of things going on much deeper in a person – issues for many originating back to their childhood.


For homosexual men, in most all cases it has everything to do with a lack of relationship with the father. For women, the problem can rest with the mother and/or father or another male figure. For some, molestation or a premature sexual experience was the lead in to the homosexual lifestyle. Whatever the factors may have been to drive someone down that unwanted homosexual path, we must remember one thing: No one was born homosexual. To state such a fact is a tragedy, as well as cop out.


Just as no one is born an alcoholic or a drug addict, the same must be said of the homosexual. "Issues" are what bring a person down these lonely, painful paths – issues when finally dealt with will allow the person to come out of their destructive behavior. You don't need to be a psychologist to figure this one out.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/720747/posts

Where's the cure?

[Missileman]

International Healing Foundation

In the midst of controversy over homosexuality, gay rights and homophobia comes a new understanding of the meaning and causes of homosexuality. Richard Cohen, founder and director of the International Healing Foundation, is a psychotherapist, educator and author who has created a successful program to assist men, women and adolescents in transitioning from homosexuality to heterosexuality. Having spent many years investigating the origins of this condition, Mr. Cohen himself made the change. He now lives in the Washington, DC area with his wife and three children.

Mr. Cohen is available for speaking engagements on the causes and treatment of homosexuality. For information, please e-mail: info@gaytostraight.org

TOPICS FOR PRESENTATION (described in detail below):
Healing Homosexuality: Causes, Cures and Compassion
The Meaning and Causes of Homosexuality
The Process of Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual
Therapeutic Tools and Techniques for Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual
Healing Parent-Child Relationships
Mentoring: Restoring Love
Are Gay Rights Right?
My Story: Coming Out of Homosexuality
"Healing Homosexuality: Causes, Cure and Compassion"

Origin of same-sex attractions
Process of healing homosexuality
Preventing homosexuality in children
In this introductory presentation, Mr. Cohen describes the latest scientific research on the causes of same-sex attractions. He presents clear evidence that there is no scientific data to support a genetic or biologic basis for homosexuality. Next he lists ten major causes of same-sex attractions. Then he describes a four-stage model of recovery, how anyone can transition from homosexual to heterosexual. He also offers five practical ways in which we can bring about positive changes in our community. Finally, he describes ways to prevent homosexuality in children, the signs to look for and what actions to take.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 3 hours

"The Meaning and Causes of Homosexuality"

Scientific research: genetics and biology
Defining same-sex attractions: three hidden meanings
Ten major causes that create a homosexual orientation
Over the past decade, several social scientists have tried to prove that people are born homosexual. Mr. Cohen gives an overview and critique of each of their studies, showing clearly that there is no scientific data to support a genetic or biologic basis for same-sex attractions. Next, Mr. Cohen defines the three basic meanings behind all homosexual desires: 1) need for same-sex parent's love, 2) need for gender identification, and 3) fear of intimacy with the opposite sex. Finally, he details the ten major causes that create same-sex attractions in either men or women: 1) heredity, 2) temperament, 3) hetero-emotional wounds, 4) homo-emotional wounds, 5) sibling wounds / family dynamics, 6) body image wounds, 7) sexual abuse, 8) peer / social wounds, 9) cultural wounds, and 10) intrauterine influences. Through this presentation, all will learn about the origins of same-sex attractions.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 1 day training

"The Process of Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual"

Four-stage model of recovery
Tasks to be accomplished in each stage
Developmental issues in recovery
Through a decade of helping men, women and adolescents come out of homosexuality, Mr. Cohen has created a four-stage model of healing. It has proven successful for those who desire to change. In this presentation, he will describe each stage of recovery and what tasks need to be accomplished in each stage. Next, he will detail a variety of therapeutic tools and techniques to aid in the process of healing. Finally, he will describe various issues that each man and woman coming out of homosexuality needs to address. This talk is helpful for anyone who wishes to assist men, women and adolescents in making the transition from homosexual to heterosexual.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 1 day training

"Therapeutic Tools and Techniques for Transitioning from Homosexual to Heterosexual"

Initial interview
Tools and techniques to aid in recovery
Spiritual, emotional, mental and physical aspects of healing
In this presentation, Mr. Cohen will share some of the tools and techniques that will help facilitate change along the path of healing. First he will describe the initial interview, what to look for and what questions to ask. Next, he will explain how to develop a treatment plan, making a program of recovery for each individual. Then he will describe a variety of therapeutic tools and techniques to use in each stage of healing. By using these skills together with the four-stage model of recovery, any individual who desires to come out of homosexuality may do so. The methods described will equip both the professional and non-professional with practical tools to assist those in recovery. Mr. Cohen will also address the four aspects of healing - spiritual, emotional, mental and physical * and how they relate to the four stages of recovery. No one is born with same-sex attractions. What was learned can be unlearned. Mr. Cohen will shows clearly how this is possible.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 1 - 3 day training

"Healing Parent-Child Relationships"

Homosexual feelings are merely a symptom of a wounded soul looking for love in all the wrong places, in all the wrong ways. Mr. Cohen offers practical suggestions for parents and children to heal past and present wounds. Same-sex attractions represent a need for the same-sex parent's love, a need for gender identity, and/or fear of intimacy with the opposite sex. When these issues are revealed and healed, and the unmet needs fulfilled, any man or woman will naturally come into the fullness of his or her gender identity and heterosexual destiny. To restore or create secure attachment and bonding between parents and children, Mr. Cohen will teach:

Causes of same-sex attractions
Process of healing
Tools for restoring relationships:
Communication skills
Listening skills
Healing activities
Length: 1 hour or 3 hours

"Mentoring: Restoring Love"

Introduction to Mentoring
Roles and responsibilities of the mentor
Roles and responsibilities of the adult-child
Anyone who did not experience successful bonding, love and intimacy with either father and or mother, seeks to heal these needs in other relationships or activities. Mentoring is a way to heal the parent-child relationship. This model is useful to heal both homo-emotional and hetero-emotional wounds (wounding that occurred with either the same-sex parent and or opposite-sex parent). It is imperative to set clear boundaries in this healing relationship, therefore Mr. Cohen will present the basic roles and responsibilities of the both the mentor and adult-child. Through such mentoring relationships, past trauma may be healed and unmet needs fulfilled.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 3 hours

"Are Gay Rights Right?"

Brief history of the homosexual movement
Goals, strategies and agenda of the Gay Rights Movement
What we can do to effect positive changes in our communities
Over the past four decades a veritable revolution has taken place in America and throughout the world. There are thousands of homosexual bars throughout the country. Every major city has a homosexual newspaper. Churches ordain homosexual ministers and marry homosexual couples. Almost every college, university and now high school campus has "gay and lesbian" student organizations. The American Psychiatric and Psychological Associations along with the American Medical Association have declared homosexuality a normal, alternative lifestyle. Many states and cities throughout America have passed special legislation for homosexuals. Several countries in the world recognize homosexual marriages. Mr. Cohen will give a brief history of the homosexual movement and how they have accomplished so much in such a short period of time. He will then present ways in which we can help create positive changes in our schools, communities, churches and local government * sharing the truth with love.
Length: 45 - 60 minutes or 3 hours

"My Story" Coming Out of Homosexuality"

Mr. Cohen shares his personal story of how he came out of homosexuality. For many years he struggled with same-sex attractions. He prayed for God to take the desires away, but they continued. He was raised in the Jewish faith and became a Christian in college. At that time he had a boyfriend of three years. Finally through his study of the Word and conviction from God, Richard terminated his relationship with his boyfriend. Nine years later Richard married, however he had suppressed his same-sex attractions. It took many trials and attempts to heal the wounds that created these desires. Finally the Lord delivered him out of homosexuality. Today he is happily married and has three beautiful children. Over the past decade, he has helped hundreds of men, women and adolescents come out of homosexuality. He is the author of several books on the causes and treatment of same-sex attractions. He has appeared on "Larry King Live," "20/20," and "The O'Reilly Factor." He has been featured on numerous radio talk shows throughout the country.
Length: 10 - 40 minutes (more or less as the situation warrants)

Click Here To Read Our Free Newsletter! Donate to IHF




International Healing Foundation
P.O. Box 901, Bowie, MD 20718
Tel. (301) 805-6111 / Fax (301) 805-5155
Email: info@gaytostraight.org

http://www.gaytostraight.org/speaking.htm

Finally, someone who claims he has a cure. It's a shame that the only evidence put forth is anecdotal. I won't totally dismiss this, but categorize it as highly questionable. If it weren't dependent on an invisible, non-existent being to actually do the healing, it might be more believable.

[Missileman]

CHANGE OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION — REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

=======================================

3) PATIENTS TREATED BY PSYCHOTHERAPY
=======================================

Berg, C., Allen, C. (1958) The problem of homosexuality. NY: Citadel Press.

SUBJECTS: 13 males, 1 females.

METHOD: Psychoanalytically oriented therapy

RESULTS: 11 (10 males, 1 female) apparent cures, 1 social cure, 1 failure


=======================================

Berger, J. (1994) The psychotherapeutic treatment of male homosexuality. American Journal of Psychotherapy. 48, 2: 251 - 261.

ABSTRACT: "In recent years very few psychodynamic contributions to the aetiology or treatment of male homosexual behavior have been made. This paper based on material from patients, and noting the contributions of others, indicates that such patients can be understood and treated successfully."

"A possible aetiological factor that has not been mentioned before in the literature, the abortion of a pregnancy conceived by the male patient may have led to the patient 'coming out' or declaring his homosexuality, is discussed."

"Three main conclusions are reached. First that human sexuality is not rigidly compartmentalized into either hetero- or homosexuality but varies on a continuous spectrum, and is affected in any individual by psychodynamic influences. Second, that before 'coming out,' young people should have the opportunity to explore their sexual identity with a psychodynamically oriented psychotherapist. Third, that some patients whose fantasies and behavior have been homosexual at some time, can become comfortably and fulfillingly heterosexual with psychotherapeutic treatment."

SUBJECTS: 3 homosexual men.

ABORTION: Abortion triggers homosexual behavior in two patients. Turning away from women did not totally relieve anxiety and other symptoms emerged.

CASE: 1 male turned to homosexuality after his baby was aborted. After therapy he experienced pleasurably heterosexual relations with occasional homosexual fantasies; 1 male, narcissistic personality, after abortion exclusively homosexual, left therapy and remained homosexual; 1 male, before therapy homosexual fantasies and encounters, after therapy, married, heterosexually fulfilling, 3 children, fears acting on occasional fleeting homosexual fantasies, but has not acted out in 20 years.


================================================== ========

Bergler, E. (1962) Homosexuality: Disease or Way of Life. NY: Collier Books.

DEFINITION OF CHANGE: "And 'cure' denotes not bisexuality, but real and unfaked heterosexuality."

THEORY: Homosexuals are severe, psychic, masochists who unconsciously reject love, admiration, approval and kindness, and posses wishes for exact opposite -- pain, humiliation, reject, and conflict.

SUBJECTS: 250 homosexuals seen for treatment, 150 sent to colleagues.

RESULTS: 112 cases successful treated, 50 successes by colleagues.

Many of those not changed did not complete treatment.

CHANGE: "In nearly thirty years, I have successfully concluded analyses of one hundred homosexuals... and have seen nearly five hundred cases in consultation. On the basis of the experience thus gathered, I make the positive statement that homosexuality has an excellent prognosis in psychiatric-psychoanalytic treatment of one to two years' duration, with a minimum of three appointments each week -- provided the patient really wishes to change. A considerable number of colleagues have achieved similar success. "


-------------

Bergler, E. (1961) Counterfeit Sex. NY. Grove Press

-------------

Bergler, E. (1959) One Thousand Homosexuals. Patterson, NJ: Pagent.

=====================================

Beukenkamp, C. (1960) Phantom Patricide. Archives of General Psychiatry. 3: 282 - 288.

SUBJECT: 1 male, sought treatment following arrest for soliciting in a public washroom.

METHOD: Psychoanalytic analysis, plus group therapy.

RESULTS: Recovered, married


===================================

Bieber, I., Dain, H., Dince, P., Drellich, M. Grand, H., Gundlach, R., Kremer, M., Rifkin, A., Wilbur, C., Bieber, T. (1962) Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytical Study. NY: Vintage.

SUBJECTS: 106 homosexual men, 100 controls, all in psychoanalysis.

CASE

METHOD: Psychoanalysis with male and female therapists, reports from the therapists. Careful analysis of each case: childhood experiences systematically compared with results of therapy.

RESULTS: 29 patients had become exclusively heterosexual during the course of psychoanalytic treatment. Of those who were exclusively homosexual before treatment 19% became exclusively heterosexual, 19% bisexual. Of those who were bisexual before treatment 50% became exclusively heterosexual.(276)

DISORDER: "The capacity to adapt homosexually is, in a sense a tribute to man's biosocial resources in the face of thwarted heterosexual goal-achievement. Sexual gratification is not renounced; instead, fears and inhibitions associated with heterosexuality are circumvented and sexual responsivity with pleasure and excitement to a member of the same sex develops as a pathologic alternative."(303)

"Any adaptation which is basically an accommodation to unrealistic fear is necessarily pathologic; in the adult homosexual continued fear of heterosexuality is inappropriate to his current reality. We differ with other investigators who have taken the position that homosexuality is a kind of variant of 'normal' sexual behavior."

FATHER: "We have come to the conclusion that a constructive, supportive, warmly related father precludes the possibility of a homosexual son; he acts as a neutralizing protective agent should the mother make seductive or close binding attempts."(311)


-------------

Bieber, I. (1965) Clinical aspects of male homosexuality (in Marmor, J. (ed.) Sexual Inversion: The Multiple Roots of Homosexuality. NY: Basic Books.) 248 - 267.

-------------

Bieber, I. (1967) Homosexuality. (in Freeman, A., Kaplan, H. (eds) Comprehensive Textbook of Psychiatry. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins.) 963 - 976.

---------------

Bieber, I. (1977) Sexuality: 1956 -1976. Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis. 5, 2: 195 - 205.

----------------

Bieber, I., Bieber, T. (1979) Male Homosexuality. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry. 24, 5: 409 - 421.

CHANGE: "We have followed some patients for as long as 20 years who have remained exclusively heterosexual. Reversal estimates now range from 30% to an optimistic 50%".


-----------------

Bieber, T. (1967) On treating male homosexuals. Archives of General Psychiatry. 16, 68.

=========================================

Braaten, L., Darling, C. (1965) Overt and covert homosexual problems among male college students. Genetic Psychology Monographs. 71:269 - 310.

SUBJECT: 76 male (42 overt homosexuals, 32 covert) 50 male controls

METHOD: Psychotherapy

RESULTS: 12 (29%) of overt homosexuals moving toward heterosexuality, 7 (21%) of the covert.


==========================================

Caprio, F. (1954) Female Homosexuality: A Psychodynamic Study of Lesbianism. NY: Citadel Press.

CASE HISTORIES: Review of early literature and treatment.

THEORY: "Lesbianism is a symptom not a disease entity. It is the result of a deep-seated neurosis which involves narcissistic gratifications and sexual immaturity. It also represents a neurotic defense mechanism for feelings of insecurity -- a compromise solution for unresolved conflicts involving one's relationship during childhood and adolescence to one's parents."

THERAPY: " Lesbians can be cured if they are earnest in their desire to be cured. Adequate self-knowledge via psychoanalysis is essential to effect a permanent cure. Psychoanalysis and psychotherapy constitute today the most effective means of treating sexual inversions. Since lesbianism is a symptom of a personality disorder, it may be reiterated that treatment must be aimed at influencing the personality structure rather than the treatment of homosexuality as though it were a disease entity."

RESULTS: "Many patients of mine, who were formerly lesbians, have communicated long after treatment was terminated, informing me that they are happily married and are convinced that they will never return to a homosexual way of life."

http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/change2.html

They are unsuccessful 50-70% of the time...what to do with those who don't respond sucessfully to the therapy?

[Missileman]

2. Reparative Therapy-"Homo-Emotional love need" is an unconscious drive for bonding between a same-gender parent and child

A. Moberly
Early Trauma-disrupts the normal attachment - Le., physical separation, or an emotionally unavailable parent, or emotional or sexual abuse.

Perceived Rejection - child perceives that the parent has rejected him or her

Defensive Detachment- Lacking a positive relationship with his father, the boy "defensively detaches" from any potential friendships with other boys his own age.

Dis-identification - child reacts against identifying with same-sex parent

Same-Sex Ambivalence- child pushes parent away due to hurt, pulls parent back due to unmet needs

Eroticisation - during puberty, the "emotional need for closeness and identification with others of our sex becomes a sexualized need, with members of our own sex being the object of both our sexual and emotional desires

Reparative Drive - because the unmet needs continue to exist, there is a drive or "pull" inside the child to attach to parent in order to meet these needs

B. Nicolosi
Incomplete gender identification-- Many homosexuals are attracted to other men and their maleness because they are striving to complete their own gender identification. Due to incomplete development of aspects of his masculine identity, the homosexual seeks to "repair" his deficits through erotic contact with an idealized other.

Gender identity and sexual orientation-- The causal rule of reparative therapy is "Gender identity determines sexual orientation." We eroticize what we are not identified with. The focus of treatment therefore is the full development of the client's masculine gender identity.

Therapy: Past and Present Issues
a-Past
mother-- probably failed to accurately reflect his authentic masculine identity; over-identification with grandmother; aunts or older sisters

father-- under-involved and emotionally withholding. He has typically failed to recognize the boy both as an autonomous individual and a masculine child

same gender peerslsiblings-- hurtful childhood relationships with male peers, and often a hurtful relationship with a domineering older brother

b-Present-

Power-- the client has given up his sense of intrinsic power. Intrinsic power is one's view of self as separate and independent. Failure to fully claim one's gender identity always results in a loss of intrinsic power

eroticisation-- his masculine deficit becomes projected onto idealized males--"The other man has something I lack-*therefore I need to be close to him sexually."

transformation-- "I do not really want to have sex with a man. Rather, what I really desire is to heal my masculinity." This healing will occur when the legitimate love needs of male attention, affection and approval are satisfied.

http://www.jeramyt.org/gay/exgayseminar.html

Where's the cure?

[Missileman]

Homosexuality, a Learned behavior


And outrageously taught in public schools!
"There is no evidence that genetic or hormonal factors play any role in the development of homosexuality. Although homosexuality has its origins in disturbed family dynamics during early childhood, it can nevertheless be treated successfully." ~ William P. Wilson, Professor of Psychiatry; Dulce University Medical School

"There is no connection between sexual instinct and choice of sexual object. Such an object is learned, acquired behavior; there is no genetically inborn propensity toward a partner of the same sex." ~ Dr. Charles Socarides (author of Homosexuality: Concepts and Psychodynamics)

"Homosexuality is acquired and discovered as a circumventive adaptation for coping with fear of heterosexuality. Pleasure and excitement to a member of the same sex develops as a pathological alternative." ~ Irving Bieber (author of Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study of Male Homosexuals)

"Irrational fear, in every case I have seen, played the leading role in inducing the individual to become homosexual in the first place or inducing him to maintain his acquired hemophilic conditioning in the second place." ~ Dr Albert Ellis (author of Homosexuality: It’s Causes and Cures)

"Homosexuality is not a sexual problem but a problem of identity—specifically, a gender identity problem. From my clinical experience, people who say ‘I was just born that way’ are saying, in effect, ‘I don’t want to acknowledge those childhood influences that contributed to my sexual orientation.’ " ~ Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D. (author of Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality)

"I see homosexuality as an addiction or compulsion to get around childhood pain. Homosexuality is neither inborn nor unchangeable. Anything can be changed once a person is committed to making that change in his or her life." ~ Judy Taylor, M.A. Therapist

These are just a handful of hundreds of reports not picked up by a liberal media or our liberal education system, much less the dramatic medical painful consequences of anal sex. How long before a parent sues the school district for indoctrination of homosexuality? I suggest the parents of students at Mepham High School should consider it.

SOURCE: http://www.angelfire.com/pa/eloewen/gay.html

http://www.blessedcause.org/Indoctrination/Homosexuality%20Learned%20Behavior.htm

Where's the cure?

[Missileman]

9) RESPONSES TO CRITICS OF THERAPY


======================================

Bieber, I. (1976) A discussion of "Homosexuality: The ethical challenge." Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. 44, 2: 163 -166.

Response to Davison (1976)

ETHICS: "Davison's thesis is simple is assumes that homosexuality is a normal sexual mode in the wide spectrum of human sexuality and that the psychological problems noted among homosexuals directly derive from societal prejudices. He suggests, therefore, that it is unethical for clinicians to cooperate with homosexuals who wish to change their sexual direction."

FAMILY: "In most cases, the mother was indeed overly close, inappropriately intimate with her son, intrusive, overprotective, and demasculinizing, but the most striking of our findings was the consistency of a seriously disturbed father-son relationship. In not one homosexual case could the father's attitude be described as affectionate or even reasonably constructive. Mostly, the fathers were reported as detached, and/or openly hostile or "never there." Children perceive detachment as hostility, which in fact it is. One is not unremittingly detached from a love object. These sons emerged from the paternal influence hating and fearing their father on the one hand and deeply yearning for paternal affection on the other."

FATHER: "If one were to choose any single criterion on which to base a prognosis for change, it is the degree of pathology of the father-son relationship. Where some positive elements exist there is comparatively less existing pathology and the prognosis for change is more encouraging."

"Since 1962, I have examined about 850 male homosexuals in psychiatric consultation. ... I also examined about 50 pairs of parents whose sons were homosexual. This sizable sample of parents and sons confirmed our research findings. In not a single case was there a good father-son relationship. In general, the parents' relationship with each other was also poor. Mothers tended to be complainingly dissatisfied with their husbands and openly preferred their son to their spouse."

CHANGE: "The goal [of therapy] is to resolve as much of a patient's psychopathology as can be accomplished. When irrational beliefs and idea systems that distort interpersonal relationships are clarified and corrected, significant changes in various areas of personality and behavior occur." (p.166)


======================================

Throckmorton, W. (1996) Efforts to modify sexual orientation: A review of outcome literature and ethical issues. Journal of Mental Health and Counseling. 20, 4: 283 -305.

RELIGION: Throckmorton is critical of those who pressure homosexual clients to change their religious beliefs."For instance, Barrett and Barzan (1996) in their article concerning spiritual and the gay experience, suggest that "assisting gay and lesbians to step away from external religious authority may challenge the counselor's own acceptance of religious teachings."(p.8) According to Barrett and Barzan (1996), "most counselors will benefit from a model that help them understand the difference between spiritual and religious authority." (p.8)

Wolpe (1973) candidly reports on this tension in his work with a gay client in the 1950s. He described the case of a 32-year-old male who had never experienced sexual attraction or relations with women. The man had "formed a succession of attachments to men with whom he had sexual relations." (p.258) However, he also felt such relations were against his religious belief causing severe anxiety. Wolpe chose to attempt to minimize his religious objections via giving him a book to read. While the client felt some guilt reduction, he still wished to "overcome his homosexuality" (Wolpe, 1973, p.259)Wolpe refused on the basis of a belief in the genetic basis for homosexuality. The client continued in assertiveness training, however, which resulted in significant reduction in anxiety and improvement in job performance. After several months, the man reported to Wolpe that he had become unable to have sex with men and was feeling attracted to a woman. Through the next year, he became sexually active with women and finally married. After a 3-year follow-up, Wolpe described the client's heterosexual sex life as "in every way satisfactory" (p.261).

"Since religion is one of the client attributes that mental health counselors are ethically bound to respect, counselors should take great care in advising those clients dissatisfied with same-gender sexual orientation due to their religious beliefs. To accommodate such clients counselors should develop expertise in methods of sexual reorientation or develop appropriate referral resources." (p. 301)


=====================================

Tripp, C. Hatterer, L. (1971) Can homosexuals change with Psychotherapy? Sexual Behavior. 1, 4: 42 - 49.

Excerpts from a transcribed discussion:

CHANGE: Dr. T. "I know Dr. Hatterer believes he has 'cured' homosexuals; similar claims have often been made. I have never seen a major change in any adult's sexual response, although patients on other therapists' 'cure' list (not yet Dr. Hatterer's) often come to me and to other therapists I know because they do not want to 'disappoint' their first doctor. In any event, there is not a single recorded instance of a change in homosexual orientation which has been validated by outside judges or testing. Kinsey wasn't able to find one. And neither Dr. Pomeroy nor I have been able to find such a patient. We would be happy to have one from Dr. Hatterer.

Dr. H. "I have 'cured' many homosexuals, Dr. Tripp. Dr. Pomeroy or any other researcher may examine my work because it is all documented on 10 years of tape recordings. Many of these 'cured' (I prefer to use the word 'changed') patients have married, had families and live happy lives. It is a destructive myth that 'once a homosexual, always a homosexual." It has made and will make millions more committed homosexuals. What is more, not only have I but many other reputable psychiatrists (Dr. Samuel B. Hadden, Dr. Lionel Ovesey, Dr. Charles Socarides, Dr. Harold Lief, Dr. Irving Bieber, and others) have reported their successful treatments of the treatable homosexual.

Dr. Tripp. There is quite a misunderstanding here as to what constitutes fundamental change...


----


DISORDER: Dr. H. I have treated numerous young men who were supposedly disturbed by their 'homosexuality.' But I do not look upon homosexuality as an entity. Rather it is a common symptom which appears in many individuals in response to innumerable, dissimilar situations.

--

PROMISCUITY: Dr. T. But I know of many, many homosexual couples who do stay together for ten, twenty, and many more years. They evidence quite the same mutual concern for each other's well-being found in warm and stable marriages.

Dr. H. Your experience is very different from mine. The homosexuals I have seen were in the main disgusted with the brevity of their relationships, disgusted by how they squandered their time, interfered with their work, dispensed with their integrity , and sacrificed hopes of an enduring relationship and family life by their driven pursuit of homosexual sex partners.

--

Dr. T... I have a sample of 32 couples who have been together more than twenty-five years.

Dr. H. Are they still together sexually?

Dr. T. Yes, but not usually exclusively.

Dr. H. I have seen men who lived together for periods of five or seven years, but rarely for twenty. And those who do stay together generally allow each other a lot of freedom sexually, or they will both invite a third party in for sex relations. The sexual involvement declines or disappears.

Dr. T. Yes, that is often the case and it seems to work very well.

---

Dr. T. All sexual arrangements work. Homosexuality especially works because it has very minor differences from heterosexuality; the overlap is tremendous and the differences are essentially trivial. But all sexual patterns work. Sadomasochistic relationships work, transvestitism works, even transsexualism for those individuals who manage to achieve the bodily changes they want.

Dr. H. I would strongly suggest Dr. Tripp examine in greater depth his word works' when applied to all those situations he refers to. I believe he confuses it with 'survive' Obviously millions of men practicing homosexuality are productive at work and would report some periods of sexual happiness with their partners either in or out of sustained relationships.

--

Dr. T. Let me get your reactions to a situation that we who do therapy with homosexuals have often heard about. There are about five or six Turkish baths in New York City that are frequented exclusively by persons who want to engage in homosexual acts. There used to be one near the train station that was a "commuters' bath' in that many of the customers were married men stopped off before they went home. They were primarily heterosexual, but engaged in this sporadically. If their lives were happy and well managed, would you say they were necessarily neurotic? Incidentally, many patients report that these men want to be passive in anal intercourse.

Dr. H. That's a big if. In order to answer the question it would be necessary to investigate what was happening with these men and their wives at home. You are right that such men want to be 'serviced by males or summit to them. But why? What and who drives them to such practices.

--

Dr. T.... To see 'humiliations' and 'sadism ' in the picture is quite unwarranted. Nor do labels of 'abnormal' help... From my point of view, there is no indication that fundamental changes in anybody's sex life are ever wrought by therapy, nor would they be particularly desirable anyway. A person's best sexual orientation is the one that helps him get the most out of himself, spontaneously. Killing off his guilt and his childish expectation that conformity is the road to heaven but tend to give him confidence and the energy to make a much smoother social integration... Since homosexuality is an alternate orientation and not a disease, 'cure' is patently impossible. What passes for 'cure' is surface symptom suppression or outright avoidance.

---

CHANGE: Dr. H. You define cure in one way; I define it in another. I see the patients sexual life in the context of his entire life style.

I had a patient recently who has had a rather extensive homosexual history . He's married now and having seven heterosexual orgasms a week. He has occasional homosexual fantasies when under pressure or stress, which has nothing to do with his homosexual responsiveness but rather with his neurotic use of homosexual sex.


================================================

Richardson, D. (1993) Recent challenges to traditional assumptions about homosexuality: Some implications for practice.(in Garnets, L., Kimmel, D. Psychological Perspectives on Lesbian Gay Males Experiences. NY: Columbia.) 117 -129.

This article challenges the idea of sexual orientation as unchangeable, while supporting the idea that homosexuality is a positive choice, and responses to Silverstein, Davidson and other writers quoted above.

Excerpts from the article.

CHANGE: "During the last decade there has been a change in professional attitudes toward homosexuality reflected in the development of new models of treatment. Rather than offering a cure the aim is to help homosexuals adjust positively to their orientation. Such attitudinal change on the part of the practitioners has not, in the main, questioned the fundamental assumptions of theories that seek to explain homosexuality. Recent theoretical inquiry into homosexuality, however, has done this, posing an important challenge to the traditionally held view that people have an essential sexuality that is either homosexual or heterosexual and that remains fixed and unchanged throughout their lives. This paper addresses some of the more important clinical implications of these recent developments, in particular, the suggestion that 'the homosexual' as a certain type of person is an 'invention.' In addition, the therapeutic value and difficulties associated with an acknowledgment that sexual preference and identity may change over time are considered. Finally, there is a consideration of what the goals should be in the case of the person who seeks professional help in changing from a homosexual to a heterosexual orientation."

"The notion of the 'homosexual' is, Plummer (1981) suggested an 'invention': it is a categorization specific to certain societies and particular historical periods. On this basis it is not possible to make a direct comparison between 'homosexuality' in present day Western society with 'homosexuality' in different cultures and historical periods..."

"As a limited number of studies have shown (e.g. Pattison and Pattison 1980; Ponse 1978) despite the widespread belief that sexual 'orientation' is a permanent characteristic, individuals may undergo one or more redefinitions of sexual identity during their life time.

"Once homosexuality is defined with a society as a way of being people will frequently reconstruct their past in keeping with their present identification as homosexual (Richardson 1981). This may take the form of their saying 'I must have really been gay all along," it being a case of their 'real' selves having been 'suppressed' until they identified themselves as homosexual. This process of reconstruction may still occur even when it runs counter to a previous identification as heterosexual and a prior absence of homosexual attraction."

-----------

Plummer, K.(1981) Going gay: Identities, life cycles and life styles in the male gay world (in Hart, J., Richardson, D. (ed) The theory and Practices of Homosexuality.. London: Routledge) 93 - 110.

Ponse, B. (1978) Identities in the Lesbian World: The Social Construction of Self. Westport CT: Greenwood Press

Richardson, D. (1981) Lesbian Identities ( in Hart, J., Richardson, D. (ed) The theory and Practices of Homosexuality.. London: Routledge) 111 - 124.

Richardson, D. (1984) The dilemma of essentiality in homosexual theory. Journal of Homosexuality. 9, 2/3: 79 - 90.

http://www.fathersforlife.org/dale/change5.html#9)

One expert says it's never happened, the other says it has...who is right?

[Missileman]

Ya know what idiot... YOU are the only one under the delusion that what I posted has no merit, and it's no surprise, I could have posted seven thousand such articles and you'd have said the exact same thing about each and every one of them.

Send a PM to all your buddies and get them to post that they believe a homosexual is cured if he's only a part-time homosexual. I'll bet Jimmy won't lose a single bit of bandwidth.

[Pale Rider]

You did exactly what I thought you'd do... and it's proving what I said. You are now fool number one on the board.... I think I'll just leave that alone.

I couldn't embarrass you by highlighting your ignorance and antipathy any more than you just did yourself... :laugh:

[Missileman]

You did exactly what I thought you'd do... and it's proving what I said. You are now fool number one on the board.... I think I'll just leave that alone.

I couldn't embarrass you by highlighting your ignorance and antipathy any more than you just did yourself... :laugh:

Look jackass...you aren't the Great Authenticator. An article isn't true or accurate just because you copy and paste it. I'm not embarassed in the least, you've done nothing more than post a bunch of links most of which offered NO evidence of a cure that you maintain exists, one that offered two opposing opinions about whether a cure exists, one that claims at least a 50%failure rate, and a couple with unsubstantiated claims of a few cures. On second thought, I'm embarassed for you that your shit is so weak.

And where are all these posters who agree with you? Are they as much figments of your imagination as the cure is?

[glockmail]

.......curing homosexuality means eliminating the desire to have sex with the same gender...... I've been cured of smoking for 25 years but still want a cig now and then.

[glockmail]

I assume you can prove that you chose your orientation?

I assume you sat there and thought 'now should I choose boys, or should I choose girls' and you chose boys, am I right? Was that a concious choice, or was it just that you happened to feel attracted to boys, and not girls?

Ever seen a hot guy before? You know what that feeling is you get, when you see a cute guy, and you think 'gee, he's hot'. Guess what that is?

ATTRACTION stupid!!! You don't look at the guy and CHOOSE to think that he is hot when he actually isn't - it's something out of your control, and not something you can change.

Now, tell me how you chose your sexuality. You're way off base Sharon. LuvRPgrl is a guy, and he's married to an RP girl. She's very cute, by the way.

[My Winter Storm]

I made a bloody good point with that post, and where is my answer?

[Pale Rider]

An article isn't true or accurate just because you copy and paste it.

At least I back up what I say, which is a MOUNTAIN more than you do... sitting there typing out your tepid, worthless, good for nothing opinion looking like an absolute nincompoop.

Get your butt buddies balls off your chin and wake up moron. You've been made look like an utter red assed buffoon. I've beat your ass into the dirt, and you're too fucking stupid, ignorant, homo apologist, nitwitted to realise it.

[Missileman]

At least I back up what I say, which is a MOUNTAIN more than you do... sitting there typing out your tepid, worthless, good for nothing opinion looking like an absolute nincompoop.

You haven't backed up anything! You were asked to post a link that there's a cure for homosexuality. The best one you've posted so far can only claim at best a 50% success rate on a few hundred subjects. That's not much of a cure.


Get your butt buddies balls off your chin and wake up moron. You've been made look like an utter red assed buffoon. I've beat your ass into the dirt, and you're too fucking stupid, ignorant, homo apologist, nitwitted to realise it.

And the board's biggest hypocrite strikes again...you just can't seem to stop yourself from fantasizing about men engaging in homosexual sex, can you?. You must be one of the 50% the therapy didn't work for. Please leave me out of your jerkoff fantasies ya creepy fuck!

Significantly absent from your post is an answer to the failings of those lame-assed links you threw up without reading.

More significantly absent from the thread are posts from all the imaginary people you claim think a bisexual qualifies as a cured homosexual.

[midcan5]

As the video and link below show 'don't worry be happy,' it may be we need to find a cure for the narrow minded whose biggest concern in this world is another's person's sexual orientation. Seems many lead empty lives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20718

[midcan5]

I've been cured of smoking for 25 years but still want a cig now and then.

Funny, once I was pasted say, 5 years, it no longer mattered, now over 30 years.

[My Winter Storm]

I'm so thrilled that no one has answered my questions, especially LoverGrl or whatever he's called. I think he's hiding under a rock while he thinks of an answer.

[glockmail]

Funny, once I was pasted say, 5 years, it no longer mattered, now over 30 years. Prolly the same if you quit being queer.

[glockmail]

I'm so thrilled that no one has answered my questions, especially LoverGrl or whatever he's called. I think he's hiding under a rock while he thinks of an answer. He's a sporadic poster. Patience berry girl.

[Missileman]

I'm so thrilled that no one has answered my questions, especially LoverGrl or whatever he's called. I think he's hiding under a rock while he thinks of an answer.

You're going to see alot of that from the 3 stooges. If they don't go off like a rabid dog, frothing at the mouth, they like to pretend the argument they have no answer for never happened.

[actsnoblemartin]

speaking of frothing from the mouth

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RF8fPkV9HNc&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RF8fPkV9HNc&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSbFQq_dXm8&feature=related (embedding was disabled,sorry)






You're going to see alot of that from the 3 stooges. If they don't go off like a rabid dog, frothing at the mouth, they like to pretend the argument they have no answer for never happened.

[Pale Rider]

You're going to see alot of that from the 3 stooges. If they don't go off like a rabid dog, frothing at the mouth, they like to pretend the argument they have no answer for never happened.

And here's johnny jingle nuts, king of the faggot defenders, with nothing more than just more of his hot air.

You got not game, you got no argument, you got no back up... you got nothing more than your flatulence here to stink up the board with... :fu:

[Pale Rider]

As the video and link below show 'don't worry be happy,' it may be we need to find a cure for the narrow minded whose biggest concern in this world is another's person's sexual orientation. Seems many lead empty lives.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=20718

So... let me get this straight... "normal" is "narrow minded?"

Or are you just talking about from your perverted, sick, twisted, faggot love fest point of view?

Take some advice from a "normal" person ass wad, get yourself a reality check... you've been in lala land too long.

[Missileman]

And here's johnny jingle nuts, king of the faggot defenders, with nothing more than just more of his hot air.

You got not game, you got no argument, you got no back up... you got nothing more than your flatulence here to stink up the board with... :fu:

Isn't it fucking hilarious that one of the stooges instantly recognized the reference was about him? :lmao:

Too easy!

[glockmail]

So missleman, why are you the head queer enabler on this site?

[Pale Rider]

Isn't it fucking hilarious that one of the stooges instantly recognized the reference was about him?

Too easy!

Still.... nothing but hot air from johnny jingle nuts the king homo apologist.... I win... too easy.... :lmao:

People are laughing "at you," moron, not "with you."

[Pale Rider]

So missleman, why are you the head queer enabler on this site?

Because he is a queer.

[GW in Ohio]

So... let me get this straight... "normal" is "narrow minded?"

Or are you just talking about from your perverted, sick, twisted, faggot love fest point of view?

Take some advice from a "normal" person ass wad, get yourself a reality check... you've been in lala land too long.

I'd like to pose a question to Pale Rider and the other he-man homo haters here.......

What would you do if you found out your son was not attracted to the opposite sex, but to his own sex?

I'll wait for your answers.........

[Pale Rider]

I'd like to pose a question to Pale Rider and the other he-man homo haters here.......

What would you do if you found out your son was not attracted to the opposite sex, but to his own sex?

I'll wait for your answers.........

I answered this question already in another thread. Start looking.... Matilda.

[GW in Ohio]

I answered this question already in another thread. Start looking.... Matilda.

Since I don't read every post in every thread, how about being courteous enough to provide your answer here?

[Abbey Marie]

Since I don't read every post in every thread, how about being courteous enough to provide your answer here?

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=238002&postcount=23

It is just a few posts down on this very page.

[GW in Ohio]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=238002&postcount=23

It is just a few posts down on this very page.

Thank you. Here is Pale Rider's response to the question, "What would you do if your son were atracted to members of his own sex rather than the opposite sex?"

My son would have two choices, either get help, or don't darken my doorstep again. Unlike others here, I wouldn't lie to my son and tell him it's OK. I'd tell him the truth, that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's gender confusion. A man is supposed to be sexually attracted to women, not men. Anything other than that is a mental imbalance. The homo agenda and liberal lies and excuses don't cut it in my family.

And by "get help" you mean you'd put your kid in the hands of some quack or some friend of Jesus who would undertake to "cure" him of his homosexuality, right? (Maybe they'd waterboard him?)

And if he didn't agree to do this.....if he was happy with himself the way he is...you would disown him.

That's very nice.

Anybody else? Would you take the same course of action with your gay son as our friend Pale Rider?

[glockmail]

.... Would you take the same course of action with your gay son as our friend Pale Rider? The question is irrelevant as I brought my son up right. In doing so life becomes much less stressful for both of us, and ridiculous "what if" scenarios do not require further contemplation.

[Missileman]

Because he is a queer.

And yet you're the one who can't go more than a few posts without writing out one of your homosexual fantasies. You're not only a hypocrite, you're a liar too. :fu:

[Missileman]

I'd like to pose a question to Pale Rider and the other he-man homo haters here.......

What would you do if you found out your son was not attracted to the opposite sex, but to his own sex?

I'll wait for your answers.........

He'd invite him into the closet, of course!

[GW in Ohio]

The question is irrelevant as I brought my son up right. In doing so life becomes much less stressful for both of us, and ridiculous "what if" scenarios do not require further contemplation.

Spoken like a real hard-core right-winger, glockie, i.e., "Of course my son could never be a homo. I brought him up right."

And if he showed any homo tendencies, you would have beat it out of him, wouldn't you?

Or maybe you would've prayed over him.

That would've taken care of it. Ain't no homo that can withstand the power of Jesus.

[Pale Rider]

Since I don't read every post in every thread, how about being courteous enough to provide your answer here?

Start reading every post. I'm not your fucking research department.

[Pale Rider]

And yet you're the one who can't go more than a few posts without writing out one of you

So what did the doctor say about that rash around your mouth? Herpes? Syphilis? Maybe HIV. You've only got yourself to blame, for engaging in all that sick homo shit.

Try not to touch anyone... you filthy pervert.

[glockmail]

Spoken like a real hard-core right-winger, glockie, i.e., "Of course my son could never be a homo. I brought him up right."

And if he showed any homo tendencies, you would have beat it out of him, wouldn't you?

Or maybe you would've prayed over him.

That would've taken care of it. Ain't no homo that can withstand the power of Jesus.

Again, I raised him right, so your question is mere speculation that doesn't deserve much in that way of contemplation.

Queer Enablers like you can’t seem to understand that stuffing your ding-dong inside any shit hole to get your rocks off won’t win you the respect and admiration of your family, or your peers, or win you any lifetime achievement awards. There’s way more important things to do in life, and much more satisfying ways to pursue happiness.

[GW in Ohio]

Again, I raised him right, so your question is mere speculation that doesn't deserve much in that way of contemplation.

Queer Enablers like you can’t seem to understand that stuffing your ding-dong inside any shit hole to get your rocks off won’t win you the respect and admiration of your family, or your peers, or win you any lifetime achievement awards. There’s way more important things to do in life, and much more satisfying ways to pursue happiness.

Glockie: Could I ask you a question?

What's your definition of "raising your son right"?

[Pale Rider]

Glockie: Could I ask you a question?

What's your definition of "raising your son right"?

Well that figures... someone that doesn't know how to raise their children right is a homo apologist and enabler.

Maybe if you knew, you wouldn't be making excuses and apologising for a disgusting, perverted, mental illness.

[glockmail]

Glockie: Could I ask you a question?

What's your definition of "raising your son right"?
Some points:
1. Fostering a strong belief in God;
2. Encouraging the highest level of academic achievement and work ethic;
3. Promoting high self-esteem, humility and a lifetime of fitness through competitive sports;
4. Active participation in Scouting for the self-reliance and community service;
5. Pointing out the hypocrisies of Liberalism whenever possible;
6. Being involved and always available;
7. Giving him a long leash with definitive boundaries; trusting him to do the right thing and not being afraid to punish him when he doesn’t.

[Pale Rider]

Thank you. Here is Pale Rider's response to the question, "What would you do if your son were atracted to members of his own sex rather than the opposite sex?"

My son would have two choices, either get help, or don't darken my doorstep again. Unlike others here, I wouldn't lie to my son and tell him it's OK. I'd tell him the truth, that homosexuality is a mental illness. It's gender confusion. A man is supposed to be sexually attracted to women, not men. Anything other than that is a mental imbalance. The homo agenda and liberal lies and excuses don't cut it in my family.

And by "get help" you mean you'd put your kid in the hands of some quack or some friend of Jesus who would undertake to "cure" him of his homosexuality, right? (Maybe they'd waterboard him?)

And if he didn't agree to do this.....if he was happy with himself the way he is...you would disown him.

That's very nice.

Anybody else? Would you take the same course of action with your gay son as our friend Pale Rider?

How does the world look from up there on your high and mighty pedestal? I mean it must feel REALLY GOOD to be BETTER than everybody else, and be all knowing about every person and everything on earth.

Don't make me laugh you sons a bitchin' jackass. You come in here and vehemently defend two men sucking on each cocks and then ramming them up each others ass, and then you presume to be better than me and talk down to me because I'm NORMAL? Just where do you get off you arrogant mother fucking prick?

I would never LIE to my son and tell him sucking on another mans COCK and then RAMMING IT UP HIS ASS IS NORMAL. I'd tell him he was sick in the head, and I'd do everything in my power to see that he got the best help available. You lie to your son. Maybe if you're lucky, he won't die from AIDES.

[GW in Ohio]

How does the world look from up there on your high and mighty pedestal? I mean it must feel REALLY GOOD to be BETTER than everybody else, and be all knowing about every person and everything on earth.

Don't make me laugh you sons a bitchin' jackass. You come in here and vehemently defend two men sucking on each cocks and then ramming them up each others ass, and then you presume to be better than me and talk down to me because I'm NORMAL? Just where do you get off you arrogant mother fucking prick?

I would never LIE to my son and tell him sucking on another mans COCK and then RAMMING IT UP HIS ASS IS NORMAL. I'd tell him he was sick in the head, and I'd do everything in my power to see that he got the best help available. You lie to your son. Maybe if you're lucky, he won't die from AIDES.

Dear Stupid:


My son isn't gay.
If he were, I'd accept him for what he is and support him fully.
You really get graphic when describing homosexual sex. They say those who are the most vehement homophobes are often closet homosexuals.
If you are gay, it's all right. I'm OK, and you're OK.
God doesn't really care if you're attracted to men or women. God is much more concerned with whether you're a good person.

[glockmail]

...
3. You really get graphic when describing homosexual sex. They say those who are the most vehement homophobes are often closet homosexuals.
5. God doesn't really care if you're attracted to men or women. God is much more concerned with whether you're a good person.


3. Why do liberals always use gay as an insult? Isn't it supposed to be normal, healthy, etc.?
5. Incorrect. Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

[manu1959]

3. Why do liberals always use gay as an insult? Isn't it supposed to be normal, healthy, etc.?
5. Incorrect. Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

just out of curiosity is not leviticus speaking about this in the context of religious ritual in a house of worship and or in the context of the marital bed which was sacred to the wife.....

[GW in Ohio]

3. Why do liberals always use gay as an insult? Isn't it supposed to be normal, healthy, etc.?
5. Incorrect. Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

There are billions of people in the world (many of them right here in the good old US of A) who don't accept the Bible as the final word on things, including human sexuality.

If that's all you got as an authority on homosexuality, you're on very shaky ground.

[manu1959]

There are billions of people in the world (many of them right here in the good old US of A) who don't accept the Bible as the final word on things, including human sexuality.

If that's all you got as an authority on homosexuality, you're on very shaky ground.

homosexuality is a personal choice ..... and people are entitled to their opinion as to whether it is right or wrong .....

also leviticus makes no mention of girl on girl action ..... so i think we are good there....

[Missileman]

So what did the doctor say about that rash around your mouth? Herpes? Syphilis? Maybe HIV. You've only got yourself to blame, for engaging in all that sick homo shit.

Try not to touch anyone... you filthy pervert.

I've asked you once already, and now a second time to leave me out of your homo sex fantasies. I don't go that way. I can't help it if you can't go for more than a few minutes without conjuring up those images to entertain yourself. You need to go see one of those docs you linked to get yourself cured. If it turns out they can't help you, keep your fantasies to yourself.

[glockmail]

just out of curiosity is not leviticus speaking about this in the context of religious ritual in a house of worship and or in the context of the marital bed which was sacred to the wife..... Maybe, but homosexuality is described as an abomination whenever it's mentioned in the Bible, so I'll just use some common sense here and jump to the wild-assed conclusion that it's not sanctioned by God.

[glockmail]

There are billions of people in the world (many of them right here in the good old US of A) who don't accept the Bible as the final word on things, including human sexuality.

If that's all you got as an authority on homosexuality, you're on very shaky ground. This one here had me laughing so hard I couldn't type a response for about a minute! :lol:

Name one major religion that condones homosexuality.

And where's my answer to #3? Or are you going to pussy away from that like you pussy away from nearly every DIRECT CHALLENGE that you have been given?

[GW in Ohio]

This one here had me laughing so hard I couldn't type a response for about a minute! :lol:

Name one major religion that condones homosexuality.

And where's my answer to #3? Or are you going to pussy away from that like you pussy away from nearly every DIRECT CHALLENGE that you have been given?

Oh, fuck you and your idiotic "challenges."

Here's a news flash, genius.......

I don't memorize every dumb thing that's said by every dumbass on this board. And there are a lot of dumb things said by a lotof dumbasses.

[My Winter Storm]

Name one major religion that condones homosexuality.

Religion is religion is religion. It matters not how big or small the religion is, at least, not in my view.

The Wiccan/Pagan religion condones homosexuality and considers it natural.

[glockmail]

Oh, fuck you and your idiotic "challenges."

Here's a news flash, genius.......

I don't memorize every dumb thing that's said by every dumbass on this board. And there are a lot of dumb things said by a lotof dumbasses.


Nice deflection on two questions that you don't want to answer, because the answers don't fit your uninformed view of reality.:laugh2:

[glockmail]

Religion is religion is religion. It matters not how big or small the religion is, at least, not in my view.

The Wiccan/Pagan religion condones homosexuality and considers it natural.


Is the Wiccan/Pagan religion considered a major religon? Do they even have a website with a link to backup your claim?

[bullypulpit]

Nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of the homopobes here. Facts are irrelevant, they cling to their own questionable, dogmatic, and spurious "facts" as if they were a lifeline in a flood. They are unwilling to admit that their own fears are the foundation of their views.

[GW in Ohio]

Nice deflection on two questions that you don't want to answer, because the answers don't fit your uninformed view of reality.:laugh2:

Glockie......my friend....

Once again, I don't keep track of every challenge you issue here, so I have no idea what your challenge consists of.

[glockmail]

Nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of the homopobes here. Facts are irrelevant, they cling to their own questionable, dogmatic, and spurious "facts" as if they were a lifeline in a flood. They are unwilling to admit that their own fears are the foundation of their views. Evidently you failed to comprehend post 1.

[glockmail]

Glockie......my friend....

Once again, I don't keep track of every challenge you issue here, so I have no idea what your challenge consists of.

Sorry but I don't consider someone who writes "fuck you" to me to be a friend.

If you can't remember a question that I wrote you a few posts back then I see how you could forget that as well.

[GW in Ohio]

Sorry but I don't consider someone who writes "fuck you" to me to be a friend.

If you can't remember a question that I wrote you a few posts back then I see how you could forget that as well.

I'm sorry......

What were you saying?

[glockmail]

I'm sorry......

What were you saying?
If that's an apology, you'll need to do better by at least making it clear and then not adding insult to injury by being so dim-witted.

[GW in Ohio]

If that's an apology, you'll need to do better by at least making it clear and then not adding insult to injury by being so dim-witted.

Glockie: You exhibit a lot of hostility and indignation, and not much humor or good spirits.

You seem perpetually pissed off.

[Pale Rider]

Dear Stupid:


My son isn't gay.
If he were, I'd accept him for what he is and support him fully.
You really get graphic when describing homosexual sex. They say those who are the most vehement homophobes are often closet homosexuals.
If you are gay, it's all right. I'm OK, and you're OK.
God doesn't really care if you're attracted to men or women. God is much more concerned with whether you're a good person.


.......... :lol: .......... :laugh: .......... :lmao:



I don' think I've read a post full of more BUNK than this one in long, LOOOOOOONG time..... :laugh:

Enjoy your eternal ASS BURNING in HELL moron... because that's where FAGGOTS are going... and yes, GOD HATES HOMOSEXUALITY!

[Pale Rider]

I've asked you once already, and now a second time to leave me out of your homo sex fantasies. I don't go that way. I can't help it if you can't go for more than a few minutes without conjuring up those images to entertain yourself. You need to go see one of those docs you linked to get yourself cured. If it turns out they can't help you, keep your fantasies to yourself.

Blah.... blah.... blah.... homo.... blah... blah....[insert insult].... blah.... blah.... why don't you just shut the fuck up moron. You've run out of even decent insults, and just sound like an jackass.

[Pale Rider]

also leviticus makes no mention of girl on girl action ..... so i think we are good there....

Homosexuality pertains to both men AND women, so no "we" are not "good there"....

[Pale Rider]

Religion is religion is religion. It matters not how big or small the religion is, at least, not in my view.

The Wiccan/Pagan religion condones homosexuality and considers it natural.

OH boy! Witches and devil worshipers consider butt fucking normal... what a REVELATION!

You people are sick... and that is the consensus of 95% of all people on earth.

[Pale Rider]

Nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of the homopobes here. Facts are irrelevant, they cling to their own questionable, dogmatic, and spurious "facts" as if they were a lifeline in a flood. They are unwilling to admit that their own fears are the foundation of their views.

Hey Ienstein... show me a post... ANYWHERE ON THIS ENTIRE BOARD... where ANYONE that it is "normal" expressed "FEAR" of homosexuality.

I won't hold my breath nose picker. I know no one has. Learn English moron.

[GW in Ohio]

.......... :lol: .......... :laugh: .......... :lmao:



I don' think I've read a post full of more BUNK than this one in long, LOOOOOOONG time..... :laugh:

Enjoy your eternal ASS BURNING in HELL moron... because that's where FAGGOTS are going... and yes, GOD HATES HOMOSEXUALITY!


Did somebody put you in charge of deciding who's going to hell? Didn't Jesus say, "Judge not, lest ye be judged"? Did you miss that passage in the Bible?
I'm not a "faggot" (your word). Or do you think everybody who's sympathetic to gays is also gay?
Isn't it kind of presumptuous on your part to declare what God hates? I'd watch out if I were you. If God burns people in hell for all eternity like you say, I'd be careful about pissing him off by presuming to speak for him.
Have you consulted a mental health professional about your anger issues?

[glockmail]

Glockie: You exhibit a lot of hostility and indignation, and not much humor or good spirits.

You seem perpetually pissed off.

If I was pissed off you wouldn't have to guess at it.:coffee:

[Missileman]

You people are sick... and that is the consensus of 95% of all people on earth.

Can you go more than a couple days without posting some unsubstantiated bullshit?

[Missileman]

Hey Ienstein... show me a post... ANYWHERE ON THIS ENTIRE BOARD... where ANYONE that it is "normal" expressed "FEAR" of homosexuality.

I won't hold my breath nose picker. I know no one has. Learn English moron.

Hey dummy! Similar challenge to you...show me a post where I've apologized for homosexuality as you have, on several occasions, accused me of doing so. And before you start cutting and pasting, calling your arguments bullshit isn't apologizing for homosexuality, it's calling your arguments bullshit. Good luck!

[Missileman]

.......... :lol: .......... :laugh: .......... :lmao:



I don' think I've read a post full of more BUNK than this one in long, LOOOOOOONG time..... :laugh:

Enjoy your eternal ASS BURNING in HELL moron... because that's where FAGGOTS are going... and yes, GOD HATES HOMOSEXUALITY!

But God loves prostitution, right? (Insert wanker smiley here)

[Pale Rider]

Did somebody put you in charge of deciding who's going to hell?

Nope. Didn't say I was either. I merely pointed out what the Bible says and how God feels about homos.



Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1302

[Pale Rider]

Can you go more than a couple days without posting some unsubstantiated bullshit?

Lets see... I posted about EIGHT PAGES of FACTS and STUDIES supporting everything I've said to your what? Oh yeah... NOTHING! You're a true blue dip shit bottlerocketboy... a true dip shit.


Reviews of the Literature

Rogers and Turner (1991)

While researchers at the National Academy of Sciences' National Research Council, Committee on AIDS Research and the Behavioral, Social, and Statistical Sciences, Rogers and Turner analyzed estimates from five probability surveys, 1970 to 1990. They gave estimated minimums of 5-7% for males having experienced some same-sex sexual contact in adulthood.

Diamond (1993)

Diamond looked at studies done on the prevalence of homosexual behavior. He included some studies done on populations outside the U.S. The date ranges varied from country to country, but spanned 1948 to 1991. Those studies discussed were compared and displayed in tablular form. He found the mean of males surveyed to be 5.5% of the population, and the median to be 5.3%. The mean of females that engaged in same sex behavior was 2.5% and the median was 3.0%. The calculations were of all non-Kinsey data. Diamond found that methods employed by these studies were inconsistent.

Gonsiorek, Sell, and Weinrich (1995)

The authors reviewed methods used in defining and measuring sexual orientation, and briefly critiqued surveys of homosexual activity from Kinsey in 1948 to the 1994 study by Laumann, et al. Because of the possible risks involved in self-disclosure, it is posited that the recurrent 2-5% for same-gender sexual behavior in the studies reviewed represents a minimum figure. They suggest that the current prevalence of predominant same-sex orientation is 4-17%.

Hewitt (1998)

Hewitt analyzed past surveys on the prevalence of homosexuality in the United States, from 1970 to 1994, looking critically at the methodology of these studies. He offered a metanalysis of the typologies used in these surveys to classify the homosexual. He found five types: (1) open preferential homosexuals, (2) repressed preferential homosexuals, (3) bisexuals, (4) experimental homosexuals, and (5) situational homosexuals.

Revised: 6/99


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources
Bagley, C., and Tremblay, P. (1998). On the prevalence of homosexuality and bisexuality, in a random community survey of 750 men aged 18 to 27. Journal of Homosexuality 36(2), 1-18.

Billy, J., Tanfer, K., Grady, W., and Klepinger, D. (1993). The sexual behavior of men in the United States. Family Planning Perspectives 25(2), 52-60.

Binson, D., Michaels, S., Stall, R., Coates, T.J., Gagnon, J.H., and Catania, J.A. (1995). Prevalence and social distribution of men who have sex with men: United States and its urban centers. Journal of Sex Research 32(3), 245-254.

Diamond, M. (1993). Homosexuality and bisexuality in different populations. Archives of Sexual Behavior 22(4), 291-310.

Fay, R., Turner, C., Klassen, A., and Gagnon, J. (January 1989). Prevalence and patterns of same-gender sexual contact among men. Science 243, 338-348.

Gagnon, J., and Simon, W. (1973). Sexual Conduct: The Social Sources of Human Sexuality. Chicago: Aldine.

Gebhard, P. H. (1972). Incidence of overt homosexuality in the United States and Western Europe. In National Institute of Mental Health Task Force on Homosexuality: Final Report and Background Papers, edited by J. M. Livingood. Rockville, MD: National Institute of Mental Health.

Gebhard, P.H., and Johnson, A.B. (1979). The Kinsey Data: Marginal Tabulations of 1938-1963 Interviews Conducted by the Institute for Sex Research. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders.

Gonsiorek, J.C., Sell, R.L., and Weinrich, J.D. (1995). Definition and measurement of sexual orientation. Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior 25(Supplement), 40-51.

Harry, J. (1990). A probability sample of gay males. Journal of Homosexuality 19(1), 89-104.

Hewitt, C. (1998).Homosexual demography: implications for the spread of AIDS. Journal of Sex Research 35(4), 390-397.

Hunt, M. (1974). Sexual Behavior in the 1970's. New York: Dell.

Janus, S., and Janus, C. (1993). The Janus Report on Sexual Behavior. New York: John Wiley & Sons.

Kinsey, A., Pomeroy, W., and Martin, C. (1948). Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders.

Kinsey, A., Pomeroy, W., Martin, C., and Gebhard, P. (1953). Sexual Behavior in the Human Female. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders.

Laumann, E., Gagnon, J.H., Michael, R.T., and Michaels, S. (1994). The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

McWhirter, D., Sanders, S., and Reinisch, J. (Eds.). (1990). Homosexuality/Heterosexuality. The Kinsey Institute Series. New York: Oxford University Press. [Includes 1977 Gebhard letter to National Gay Task Force on tabulations of Kinsey's data.]

Pietropinto, A., and Simenauer, J. (1977). Beyond the Male Myth. New York: Times Books.

Rogers, S., and Turner, C. (1991). Male-male sexual contact in the U.S.A.: Findings from five sample surveys, 1970-1990. Journal of Sex Research 28(4):491-519.

Sell, R. L., Wells, J. A., and Wypij, D. (1995). The prevalence of homosexual behavior and attraction in the United States, the United Kingdom and France: Results of national population-based samples. Archives of Sexual Behavior 24(3), 235-248.

Smith, T.W. (1991). Adult sexual behavior in 1989: Number of partners, frequency of intercourse and risk of AIDS. Family Planning Perspectives 23(3), 102-107.

Taylor, H. (1993). Number of gay men more than four times higher than the 1 percent reported in a recent survey. The Harris Poll #20. New York, NY: Louis Harris & Associates.

Wells, J.A., and Sell, R.L. (1990). Project Hope's International Survey of AIDS Educational Messages and Behavior Change: France, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Bethesda, MD: Project Hope, Center for Health Affairs.

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/bib-homoprev.html#other


Hey dummy! Similar challenge to you...show me a post where I've apologized for homosexuality as you have, on several occasions, accused me of doing so. And before you start cutting and pasting, calling your arguments bullshit isn't apologizing for homosexuality, it's calling your arguments bullshit. Good luck!
You DEFEND homosexuality with a zeal like no one else on this board. Even more so than the queers themselves. You must have a love for it in one capacity or another for such to give it such passionate, vehement support.


But God loves prostitution, right? (Insert wanker smiley here)
If you knew anything of God and what he approves of, you wouldn't make such ignorant, moronic statements.

[Missileman]

Lets see... I posted about EIGHT PAGES of FACTS and STUDIES supporting everything I've said to your what? Oh yeah... NOTHING! You're a true blue dip shit bottlerocketboy... a true dip shit.


Reviews of the Literature

Rogers and Turner (1991)

While researchers at the National Academy of Sciences' National Research Council, Committee on AIDS Research and the Behavioral, Social, and Statistical Sciences, Rogers and Turner analyzed estimates from five probability surveys, 1970 to 1990. They gave estimated minimums of 5-7% for males having experienced some same-sex sexual contact in adulthood.

Diamond (1993)

Diamond looked at studies done on the prevalence of homosexual behavior. He included some studies done on populations outside the U.S. The date ranges varied from country to country, but spanned 1948 to 1991. Those studies discussed were compared and displayed in tablular form. He found the mean of males surveyed to be 5.5% of the population, and the median to be 5.3%. The mean of females that engaged in same sex behavior was 2.5% and the median was 3.0%. The calculations were of all non-Kinsey data. Diamond found that methods employed by these studies were inconsistent.

Gonsiorek, Sell, and Weinrich (1995)

The authors reviewed methods used in defining and measuring sexual orientation, and briefly critiqued surveys of homosexual activity from Kinsey in 1948 to the 1994 study by Laumann, et al. Because of the possible risks involved in self-disclosure, it is posited that the recurrent 2-5% for same-gender sexual behavior in the studies reviewed represents a minimum figure. They suggest that the current prevalence of predominant same-sex orientation is 4-17%.

Hewitt (1998)

Hewitt analyzed past surveys on the prevalence of homosexuality in the United States, from 1970 to 1994, looking critically at the methodology of these studies. He offered a metanalysis of the typologies used in these surveys to classify the homosexual. He found five types: (1) open preferential homosexuals, (2) repressed preferential homosexuals, (3) bisexuals, (4) experimental homosexuals, and (5) situational homosexuals.

Revised: 6/99


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources
Bagley, C., and Tremblay, P. (1998). On the prevalence of homosexuality and bisexuality, in a random community survey of 750 men aged 18 to 27. Journal of Homosexuality 36(2), 1-18.

Billy, J., Tanfer, K., Grady, W., and Klepinger, D. (1993). The sexual behavior of men in the United States. Family Planning Perspectives 25(2), 52-60.

Binson, D., Michaels, S., Stall, R., Coates, T.J., Gagnon, J.H., and Catania, J.A. (1995). Prevalence and social distribution of men who have sex with men: United States and its urban centers. Journal of Sex Research 32(3), 245-254.

Diamond, M. (1993). Homosexuality and bisexuality in different populations. Archives of Sexual Behavior 22(4), 291-310.

Fay, R., Turner, C., Klassen, A., and Gagnon, J. (January 1989). Prevalence and patterns of same-gender sexual contact among men. Science 243, 338-348.

Gagnon, J., and Simon, W. (1973). Sexual Conduct: The Social Sources of Human Sexuality. Chicago: Aldine.

Gebhard, P. H. (1972). Incidence of overt homosexuality in the United States and Western Europe. In National Institute of Mental Health Task Force on Homosexuality: Final Report and Background Papers, edited by J. M. Livingood. Rockville, MD: National Institute of Mental Health.

Gebhard, P.H., and Johnson, A.B. (1979). The Kinsey Data: Marginal Tabulations of 1938-1963 Interviews Conducted by the Institute for Sex Research. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders.

Gonsiorek, J.C., Sell, R.L., and Weinrich, J.D. (1995). Definition and measurement of sexual orientation. Suicide and Life-Threatening Behavior 25(Supplement), 40-51.

Harry, J. (1990). A probability sample of gay males. Journal of Homosexuality 19(1), 89-104.

Hewitt, C. (1998).Homosexual demography: implications for the spread of AIDS. Journal of Sex Research 35(4), 390-397.

Hunt, M. (1974). Sexual Behavior in the 1970's. New York: Dell.

Janus, S., and Janus, C. (1993). The Janus Report on Sexual Behavior. New York: John Wiley & Sons.

Kinsey, A., Pomeroy, W., and Martin, C. (1948). Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders.

Kinsey, A., Pomeroy, W., Martin, C., and Gebhard, P. (1953). Sexual Behavior in the Human Female. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders.

Laumann, E., Gagnon, J.H., Michael, R.T., and Michaels, S. (1994). The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

McWhirter, D., Sanders, S., and Reinisch, J. (Eds.). (1990). Homosexuality/Heterosexuality. The Kinsey Institute Series. New York: Oxford University Press. [Includes 1977 Gebhard letter to National Gay Task Force on tabulations of Kinsey's data.]

Pietropinto, A., and Simenauer, J. (1977). Beyond the Male Myth. New York: Times Books.

Rogers, S., and Turner, C. (1991). Male-male sexual contact in the U.S.A.: Findings from five sample surveys, 1970-1990. Journal of Sex Research 28(4):491-519.

Sell, R. L., Wells, J. A., and Wypij, D. (1995). The prevalence of homosexual behavior and attraction in the United States, the United Kingdom and France: Results of national population-based samples. Archives of Sexual Behavior 24(3), 235-248.

Smith, T.W. (1991). Adult sexual behavior in 1989: Number of partners, frequency of intercourse and risk of AIDS. Family Planning Perspectives 23(3), 102-107.

Taylor, H. (1993). Number of gay men more than four times higher than the 1 percent reported in a recent survey. The Harris Poll #20. New York, NY: Louis Harris & Associates.

Wells, J.A., and Sell, R.L. (1990). Project Hope's International Survey of AIDS Educational Messages and Behavior Change: France, the United Kingdom, and the United States. Bethesda, MD: Project Hope, Center for Health Affairs.

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/bib-homoprev.html#other

Where's your evidence that homosexuality disgusts 95% of the world's population?



You DEFEND homosexuality with a zeal like no one else on this board. Even more so than the queers themselves. You must have a love for it in one capacity or another for such to give it such passionate, vehement support.

You again mistake calling your bullshit arguments bullshit as anything other than calling your arguments bullshit. I guess you couldn't find any posts to substaniate your lie, so now you want to change it. You're still on the hook...post where I've defended homosexuality.


If you knew anything of God and what he approves of, you wouldn't make such ignorant, moronic statements.

You're a hypocrite AND a liar! If there actually were a hell, you'd be at the bottom of the pile.

[Pale Rider]

Where's your evidence that homosexuality disgusts 95% of the world's population?
Your game is old, and you've had your ass kicked in debate seven times from Sunday. The only person that doesn't know is you, imbecile.


You again mistake calling your bullshit arguments bullshit as anything other than calling your arguments bullshit. I guess you couldn't find any posts to substaniate your lie, so now you want to change it. You're still on the hook...post where I've defended homosexuality.
You're the boards biggest and most vehement, ardent, and passionate homo defender. Pretending like nobody can come in this thread and read just how big of a queer defender you are won't get you off the hook. You're tainted. You've been exposed. You have tared and feathered yourself as the board fag defender. Live with it or shut the fuck up. You've only got yourself to blame, not to mention you've made yourself look like an incredibly ignorant buffoon and liar.


You're a hypocrite AND a liar! If there actually were a hell, you'd be at the bottom of the pile.
Oh there's a hell, but it's the homos and the people that lied to them telling them it's OK that's going to be in it. Not me. You lose at every turn in this discussion, and I've slapped you up like the bald headed retard you are from start to finish here. I've pounded you like a piece of cheap steak. Far be it from me to help you though... you're just too stupid to know when you're whipped. Play acting like your worthless opinion will get you anywhere apposed to the multitudes of pages of facts and figures I post just make you look retarded.

So heeeeeeeeeerrrrrrree's your picture dumb ass.....

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2116/2093273754_4fb7884b81_o.jpg

[Missileman]

Your game is old, and you've had your ass kicked in debate seven times from Sunday. The only person that doesn't know is you, imbecile.

There's a surprise...pretend the question never happened. I'll repeat it for you. Where's your evidence that 95% of the world is disgusted with homosexuality? It's your claim, how about backing it up for a change.



You're the boards biggest and most vehement, ardent, and passionate homo defender. Pretending like nobody can come in this thread and read just how big of a queer defender you are won't get you off the hook. You're tainted. You've been exposed. You have tared and feathered yourself as the board fag defender. Live with it or shut the fuck up. You've only got yourself to blame, not to mention you've made yourself look like an incredibly ignorant buffoon and liar.

Another surprise...more UNSUBSTANTIATED bullshit. Quote an instance where I've defended homosexuality or STFU! Seriously, you made an accusation, BACK IT UP!


Oh there's a hell, but it's the homos and the people that lied to them telling them it's OK that's going to be in it. Not me. You lose at every turn in this discussion, and I've slapped you up like the bald headed retard you are from start to finish here. I've pounded you like a piece of cheap steak. Far be it from me to help you though... you're just too stupid to know when you're whipped. Play acting like your worthless opinion will get you anywhere apposed to the multitudes of pages of facts and figures I post just make you look retarded.


When you snap out of your delusion...the one where you can do what ever you like and still make it to heaven and on your best day did anything more than look like a total retard with anger management issues, ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTIONS!

[My Winter Storm]

Enjoy your eternal ASS BURNING in HELL moron... because that's where FAGGOTS are going... and yes, GOD HATES HOMOSEXUALITY!

No where in the Bible does it actually say that God hates homosexuality.

I am starting to think you would feel right at home at the Westboro Baptist Church...

[My Winter Storm]

You people are sick... and that is the consensus of 95% of all people on earth.

You then assume that only 5% of the worlds population are homosexual. I think it is a little more than that. And don't forget those people who don't admit to being homosexual - those on the 'down low' - men who have sex with men but don't consider themselves gay or bisexual. I'd go so far as to say that it is possible that 10% of the population are homosexual, eithor openly or closeted.

[My Winter Storm]

Maybe, but homosexuality is described as an abomination whenever it's mentioned in the Bible, so I'll just use some common sense here and jump to the wild-assed conclusion that it's not sanctioned by God.

But does it matter if it's not sanctioned by God? Not everyone believes in God, and no one should have to conform to the rules of someone who may not even exist.

[Pale Rider]

There's a surprise...pretend the question never happened. I'll repeat it for you. Where's your evidence that 95% of the world is disgusted with homosexuality? It's your claim, how about backing it up for a change.
What has become very evident here is, I can prove this and that from now until eternity, and you will pretend that nothing was ever posted against your beloved homosexuality. It's a game to you. I prove something... you ignore it. I prove something... you ignore it. Well guess what idiot, games over. Now it's YOUR turn to back your CRAP.


Another surprise...more UNSUBSTANTIATED bullshit. Quote an instance where I've defended homosexuality or STFU! Seriously, you made an accusation, BACK IT UP!
I have, over and over, only to have you IGNORE IT, over and over. Now you can just fuck off, unless you have something to back up YOUR CRAP. But I know you don't. You've got nothing but your BULL SHIT TALK. Well that isn't going to cut it any longer shit for brains. Get to backing up your bull shit or stop posting. You're wasting Jim's bandwidth with your worthless hot air you fucking moronic, faggot loving, gas bag.




When you snap out of your delusion...the one where you can do what ever you like and still make it to heaven and on your best day did anything more than look like a total retard with anger management issues, ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTIONS!
I posted what the Bible said, and you're going to sit here and try and say the Bible says something different? What... YOU THINK YOU'RE ABOVE GOD NOW???!!! You're reached a new height of ignorance in your game penis breath. One that surely God isn't going to look kindly on. You better pray for some forgiveness if you EVER thought you had a chance of going to heaven.

[Pale Rider]

You then assume that only 5% of the worlds population are homosexual. I think it is a little more than that. And don't forget those people who don't admit to being homosexual - those on the 'down low' - men who have sex with men but don't consider themselves gay or bisexual. I'd go so far as to say that it is possible that 10% of the population are homosexual, eithor openly or closeted.
Look.... I not only posted a study done on how many homos there was in the world, which backs up exactly what I've said, but I also posted what God says about homos in the Bible.


No where in the Bible does it actually say that God hates homosexuality.

I am starting to think you would feel right at home at the Westboro Baptist Church...
And yes, I'd say God DOES hate homos, otherwise he wouldn't be saying he was going to "PUT THEM TO DEATH,".....


Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.


But does it matter if it's not sanctioned by God? Not everyone believes in God, and no one should have to conform to the rules of someone who may not even exist.
If you don't believe in God, then that's certainly your right, no problem. I do, and was just making clear what God says.

[bullypulpit]

Pale, what is the basis of your desire to have homosexuals relegated to the status of pariahs, I mean beyond your own personal revulsion and some vague, wooly-headed, religious doctrine?

Can you provide an objective, rational argument supporting your position?

Homophobes have a number of common characteristics...

<blockquote>The bulk of studies have sought to uncover the correlates of negative attitudes. Some findings are contradictory, such as the relationship between sex-role conformity (i.e., masculinity, femininity, androgyny) and attitudes. In general, however, some consistent patterns have been observed across different samples. When compared to those with more favorable attitudes toward lesbians and gay men, these studies have found that persons with negative attitudes:

1. are less likely to have had personal contact with lesbians or gay;

2. are less likely to report having engaged in homosexual behaviors, or to identify themselves as lesbian or gay;

3. are more likely to perceive their peers as manifesting negative attitudes, especially if the respondents are males;

4. are more likely to have resided in areas where negative attitudes are the norm (e.g., the midwestern and southern United States, the Canadian prairies, and in rural areas or small towns), especially during adolescence;

5. are likely to be older and less well educated;

6. are more likely to be religious, to attend church frequently, and to subscribe to a conservative religious ideology;

7. are more likely to express traditional, restrictive attitudes about sex roles;

8. are less permissive sexually or manifest more guilt or negativity about sexuality, although some researchers have not observed this pattern and others have reported a substantially reduced correlation with the effects of sex-role attitudes partialled out;

9. are more likely to manifest high levels of authoritarianism and related personality characteristics.

Sex differences in the direction and intensity of attitudes have been observed fairly consistently. It appears that heterosexuals tend to have more negative attitudes toward homosexuals of their own sex than of the opposite sex. . . . - <a href=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/overview.html>Frontline</a></blockquote>

A brief perusal of your posts on the matter reflect many of the characteristics mentioned above.

As to the causes of homophobia, they are many and diverse, but primary among them are:

<blockquote>The desire to discriminate against gays and lesbians, and thus to reserve special privileges to heterosexuals, appears to have many causes. Some are:
- Inability or unwillingness to change the information received during childhood.
- Fear of people who are different.
- Promotion of homophobia by a religious group.
- A heterosexual's natural feeling of repulsion at the thought of engaging in same-sex activity. Realizing that homosexual behavior is unnatural for them, some people generalize this feeling into the belief that homosexuality is wrong for everyone.
- Actual homosexual feelings that a person cannot acknowledge or handle.
- Low self esteem leading to a need to hate other group(s). - <a href=http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fuel1.htm>About Homophobia</a></blockquote>

It is also readily apparent, Pale, from examining your posts on the subject, that you reveal a number of those traits as well.

So, how's about it...? Care to debate the issue in terms other than those of personal revulsion and religious dogma? Didn't think so.

[bullypulpit]

I am starting to think you would feel right at home at the Westboro Baptist Church...

Actually, Pale and I share a common revulsion with the good Rev Phelps and his flock of inbred freaks at Westboro Baptist Church for their picketing of the funerals of soldiers killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Regarding gays, however, Pale is as rabid a homophobe as Phelps and his slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing flock.

[Missileman]

What has become very evident here is, I can prove this and that from now until eternity, and you will pretend that nothing was ever posted against your beloved homosexuality. It's a game to you. I prove something... you ignore it. I prove something... you ignore it. Well guess what idiot, games over. Now it's YOUR turn to back your CRAP.

One long rant, signifying NOTHING. You didn't post a single shred of evidence that 95% of the world finds homosexuality disgusting, NOT A SINGLE SHRED. You haven't established a correlation between heterosexuality and disgust with homosexuality. Ask yourself how many men think two women going at it is hot. Think it's only 5%?



I have, over and over, only to have you IGNORE IT, over and over. Now you can just fuck off, unless you have something to back up YOUR CRAP. But I know you don't. You've got nothing but your BULL SHIT TALK. Well that isn't going to cut it any longer shit for brains. Get to backing up your bull shit or stop posting. You're wasting Jim's bandwidth with your worthless hot air you fucking moronic, faggot loving, gas bag.

You've made an accusation, that I've apologized for and defended homosexuality. I've asked you to post evidence that supports your accusation and you keep changing the subject. Quote one post of mine where I've done either or admit you were mistaken.



I posted what the Bible said, and you're going to sit here and try and say the Bible says something different? What... YOU THINK YOU'RE ABOVE GOD NOW???!!! You're reached a new height of ignorance in your game penis breath. One that surely God isn't going to look kindly on. You better pray for some forgiveness if you EVER thought you had a chance of going to heaven.

More distraction...and one GIANT LIE, I never said anything of the sort. I asked where you get off assigning one group of sinners to hell while believing you and your sins were destined for heaven.

You'd better hope that there is no god. If there is, YOU hand-delivered YOUR SON to Satan...think you'll get a medal for that?

[Pale Rider]

Pale, what is the basis of your desire to have homosexuals relegated to the status of pariahs, I mean beyond your own personal revulsion and some vague, wooly-headed, religious doctrine?

Can you provide an objective, rational argument supporting your position?

Your choice of words seems indicative to your own hidden feelings bull.

On top of that, "revulsion" is what any "normal" person feels when they envision two men sucking on each others cock and then ramming them up each others ass. If this DOESN'T "repulse" YOU, then you, bull, are a homosexual. Are you? Maybe your ugly old fat ass can't attract a woman, so you've turned to men.

And I didn't write the Bible. I think you know that. I just believe what it says because I'm a Christian. However, I've known for a long time here that you have a personal HATE for religion, specifically Christians. You can't even make reference to us without some sort of derogatory sarcasm.


Actually, Pale and I share a common revulsion with the good Rev Phelps and his flock of inbred freaks at Westboro Baptist Church for their picketing of the funerals of soldiers killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Regarding gays, however, Pale is as rabid a homophobe as Phelps and his slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing flock.
Lets go over this again shall we?

Ho`mo - a person suffering from a mental illness that makes them feel sexually attracted to the same sex.

Pho`bi`a - a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity

You and others seem to use your favorite liberal, distraction, buzz word out of context so often, I'm begining to think you're really that dumb. No one here has EVER expressed "FEAR" of a homo. "REVULSION"... being your own word, which is 100% correct. Where did you all of a sudden lose your train of thought? Oh yeah... when you wanted to turn on the insult machine. Got'cha. Even though they're even the same old stale crap. You need to brighten up act bull... your insults are stale.

[Pale Rider]

One long rant, signifying NOTHING. You didn't post a single shred of evidence that 95% of the world finds homosexuality disgusting, NOT A SINGLE SHRED. You haven't established a correlation between heterosexuality and disgust with homosexuality. Ask yourself how many men think two women going at it is hot. Think it's only 5%?

You've made an accusation, that I've apologized for and defended homosexuality. I've asked you to post evidence that supports your accusation and you keep changing the subject. Quote one post of mine where I've done either or admit you were mistaken.

More distraction...and one GIANT LIE, I never said anything of the sort. I asked where you get off assigning one group of sinners to hell while believing you and your sins were destined for heaven.

You'd better hope that there is no god. If there is, YOU hand-delivered YOUR SON to Satan...think you'll get a medal for that?

Here we go again... blah, blah, blah..... say nothing.... blah, blah, blah, still nothing backing up ANYTHING "you" say.... blah, blah, blah.... you still know nothing of how Christianity works but try and sound like it.... blah, blah, blah... more inane crap the bottlerocketboy.

Ya know what bottleboy? Aside from being the biggest faggot lover, defender, excuse maker, enabler on the board, you're boring and a liar, besides being ignorant beyond belief. You are an amazing example of just how RETARDED one person can be. I "COULD" go back through ALL THESE PAGES and post enough evidence supporting EVERYTHING I'VE SAID in terms that NO ONE WOULD DISPUTE..... BUT YOU! And I know why you ignore all those pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, because they PROVE what I say, and therefore YOU LOSE! So here you are putting on this "I DON'T SEE ANYTHING" act, over and over and over and over. Only thing is, YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE BUYING INTO YOUR DUMB ASS ACT! What you're FAILING to see here is, EVERYBODY CAN READ THROUGH ALL THESE PAGES AND SEE JUST HOW BLATANT YOUR IGNORING ACT IS! You've been HAD! You've FAILED! And to top it all off, you've made yourself look like a complete buffoon. You're the laughing stock of the board moron. You need a SERIOUS wake up call.

[Missileman]

Here we go again... blah, blah, blah..... say nothing.... blah, blah, blah, still nothing backing up ANYTHING "you" say.... blah, blah, blah.... you still know nothing of how Christianity works but try and sound like it.... blah, blah, blah... more inane crap the bottlerocketboy.

Ya know what bottleboy? Aside from being the biggest faggot lover, defender, excuse maker, enabler on the board, you're boring and a liar, besides being ignorant beyond belief. You are an amazing example of just how RETARDED one person can be. I "COULD" go back through ALL THESE PAGES and post enough evidence supporting EVERYTHING I'VE SAID in terms that NO ONE WOULD DISPUTE..... BUT YOU! And I know why you ignore all those pages, and pages, and pages, and pages, because they PROVE what I say, and therefore YOU LOSE! So here you are putting on this "I DON'T SEE ANYTHING" act, over and over and over and over. Only thing is, YOU'RE THE ONLY ONE BUYING INTO YOUR DUMB ASS ACT! What you're FAILING to see here is, EVERYBODY CAN READ THROUGH ALL THESE PAGES AND SEE JUST HOW BLATANT YOUR IGNORING ACT IS! You've been HAD! You've FAILED! And to top it all off, you've made yourself look like a complete buffoon. You're the laughing stock of the board moron. You need a SERIOUS wake up call.

That's right PUSSY! Stick your fingers in your ears and pretend it never happened. Why can't you just admit you're a FUCKING LIAR?

[Pale Rider]

That's right PUSSY! Stick your fingers in your ears and pretend it never happened. Why can't you just admit you're a FUCKING LIAR?

You just described in perfect detail your M.O..

Really... you need to get a grip. Settle down... get back to reality... maybe just go away and shut the fuck up for awhile. Maybe you'll come to your senses. We don't need any more of your act and lying in here... you little fucking, snot nosed, sissie. Grow up.

[GW in Ohio]

Nope. Didn't say I was either. I merely pointed out what the Bible says and how God feels about homos.




http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1302

Your Bible passage says homos should be put to death. If you really take that horsecrap seriously, why don't you go out and kill a few queers for Christ?

Or are you afraid to put your beliefs into action?

[Pale Rider]

Your Bible passage says homos should be put to death. If you really take that horsecrap seriously, why don't you go out and kill a few queers for Christ?

Or are you afraid to put your beliefs into action?

Nice twist, but again, like much like bull, you have no idea what you're talking about, so you just sound dumb.

"GOD" is the one that will put them to death, not me. Life after death is the gift our father in heaven gives us if you're reborn in the name of Jesus Christ. You will have eternal life. If you're a homo, then you will die an eternal death.

I hope that wasn't too hard to understand.

[Missileman]

You just described in perfect detail your M.O..

Really... you need to get a grip. Settle down... get back to reality... maybe just go away and shut the fuck up for awhile. Maybe you'll come to your senses. We don't need any more of your act and lying in here... you little fucking, snot nosed, sissie. Grow up.

You claim you "COULD"...quit being a pussy and do it. It's just more of your usual empty BULLSHIT!

[Pale Rider]

You claim you "COULD"...quit being a pussy and do it. It's just more of your usual empty BULLSHIT!

Nope... done enough... which is about... oooohh... 1000 TIMES MORE THAN YOU HAVE!

Seriously bottleboy... your act is up. The curtain has come down, the people have left, and it's time for you to wake up.

[GW in Ohio]

Look.... I not only posted a study done on how many homos there was in the world, which backs up exactly what I've said, but I also posted what God says about homos in the Bible.


And yes, I'd say God DOES hate homos, otherwise he wouldn't be saying he was going to "PUT THEM TO DEATH,".....




If you don't believe in God, then that's certainly your right, no problem. I do, and was just making clear what God says.

I believe in God, too, but my God doesn't really give a flying fuck if two consenting adults have a sexual relationship, as long as they're not violating any marriage vows or otherwise betraying a trust.

You're much too concerned with sex, BibleBoy. Sex just ain't that important.

[GW in Ohio]

Nice twist, but again, like much like bull, you have no idea what you're talking about, so you just sound dumb.

"GOD" is the one that will put them to death, not me. Life after death is the gift our father in heaven gives us if you're reborn in the name of Jesus Christ. You will have eternal life. If you're a homo, then you will die an eternal death.

I hope that wasn't too hard to understand.


And if you take your Christianity seriously (you seem to want to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you follow), you might remember that Jesus said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

Seems to me, you're doin' an awful lot of judgin', and declarin' who's goin' to hell.

I'd leave those decisions to God, if I were you.

[Missileman]

Nope... done enough... which is about... oooohh... 1000 TIMES MORE THAN YOU HAVE!

Seriously bottleboy... your act is up. The curtain has come down, the people have left, and it's time for you to wake up.

Yep, as I predicted, tuck tail and slink away...GUTLESS COWARD!

[Pale Rider]

I believe in God, too, but my God doesn't really give a flying fuck if two consenting adults have a sexual relationship, as long as they're not violating any marriage vows or otherwise betraying a trust.

You're much too concerned with sex, BibleBoy. Sex just ain't that important.
I don't know what God you're talking about shit stain, but it isn't the God of Christianity.


And if you take your Christianity seriously (you seem to want to pick and choose which parts of the Bible you follow), you might remember that Jesus said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

Seems to me, you're doin' an awful lot of judgin', and declarin' who's goin' to hell.

I'd leave those decisions to God, if I were you.
I quoting the Bible, not judging. Get that straight moron.

And don't think for one second that the Lord doesn't know what's in your heart. You in here spouting off that "sex just isn't that important," when God has made it perfectly clear IT IS, you better be on your knees asking for his forgiveness.

Hell is where the Bible says homos and liars are going, not me. Get that straight too mutton head. Don't blame the messenger for the message. If you don't like the fact that homos will surely be put to death, then you have to blame the Bible.

Now tell us the Bible is wrong ass wad.

[Pale Rider]

Yep, as I predicted, tuck tail and slink away...GUTLESS COWARD!

I'm still here jerk off... waiting for you man up and post something defending YOUR position, as I have.... pussy.

Now get with it or shut the fuck up you nipple headed, mamma's boy.

[Missileman]

I'm still here jerk off... waiting for you man up and post something defending YOUR position, as I have.... pussy.

Now get with it or shut the fuck up you nipple headed, mamma's boy.

Sorry, but trying to switch this shit around on me isn't going to work. You made a statement and an accusation that you were asked to justify with REAL evidence. The burden isn't mine to disprove, it's yours to prove. You've accused me of apologizing for and defending homosexuality. Such a post doesn't exist, I know what I've written. Your accusation is baseless.

You made a statement that 95% of humanity is sickened by homosexuality based solely on the ASSUMPTION that heterosexual = sickened by homosexuality. It's an ASSUMPTION based neither in fact, nor reason, nor reality.

[Pale Rider]

Sorry, but trying to switch this shit around on me isn't going to work. You made a statement and an accusation that you were asked to justify with REAL evidence. The burden isn't mine to disprove, it's yours to prove. You've accused me of apologizing for and defending homosexuality. Such a post doesn't exist, I know what I've written. Your accusation is baseless.
It is on you. I've posted umpteen articles to back up and prove everything I've said. Your act was to ignore them as if nothing was ever posted. Now the burden is on you to prove what I posted had no merit, and that is going to take more just your inane psychobabble.

Get with it.

This entire thread is littered with your support, excuses and apologies for homos. You denying it is just pure, deft, lying and ignorance... more of your act.



You made a statement that 95% of humanity is sickened by homosexuality based solely on the ASSUMPTION that heterosexual = sickened by homosexuality. It's an ASSUMPTION based neither in fact, nor reason, nor reality.
They are, and I proved it. You playing I haven't is just more of your act.

Acting is over. Curtain has come down and the people have gone home. Time for Mm to put up or shut up. No more play acting.

[Pale Rider]

Sorry, but trying to switch this shit around on me isn't going to work. You made a statement and an accusation that you were asked to justify with REAL evidence. The burden isn't mine to disprove, it's yours to prove. You've accused me of apologizing for and defending homosexuality. Such a post doesn't exist, I know what I've written. Your accusation is baseless.

You made a statement that 95% of humanity is sickened by homosexuality based solely on the ASSUMPTION that heterosexual = sickened by homosexuality. It's an ASSUMPTION based neither in fact, nor reason, nor reality.

And another thing bottleboy... I find it highly unusual for you to DING MY REP, and in your filthy comment you call me a "FAGGOT," when all along you're in here DEFENDING them.

Can you say "HYPOCRIT?" You fucking piece of shit. You're a real piece of work jackass.

[Missileman]

It is on you. I've posted umpteen articles to back up and prove everything I've said. Your act was to ignore them as if nothing was ever posted. Now the burden is on you to prove what I posted had no merit, and that is going to take more just your inane psychobabble.

Get with it.

This entire thread is littered with your support, excuses and apologies for homos. You denying it is just pure, deft, lying and ignorance... more of your act.



They are, and I proved it. You playing I haven't is just more of your act.

Acting is over. Curtain has come down and the people have gone home. Time for Mm to put up or shut up. No more play acting.

I have given you ample opportunity to correct your lies. You are apprently content to be seen as a LIAR and a HYPOCRITE. You won't mind if I remind the board from time to time, right?

[Missileman]

And another thing bottleboy... I find it highly unusual for you to DING MY REP, and in your filthy comment you call me a "FAGGOT," when all along you're in here DEFENDING them.

Can you say "HYPOCRIT?" You fucking piece of shit. You're a real piece of work jackass.

You are a faggot! It explains why you like to dress up like members of the village people. You've only copped to the biker and cowboy, but I've no doubt there's a toolbelt and hard hat, along with an Indian headdress in your closet. :fu:

[Pale Rider]

I have given you ample opportunity to correct your lies. You are apprently content to be seen as a LIAR and a HYPOCRITE. You won't mind if I remind the board from time to time, right?

Blah, blah, blah, more empty psychobabble, blah, blah, blah.

You have earned the top board honors for lying, ignorance, and being hypocritical.... and I won't have to remind the board from time to time. They've witnessed it all here.

[Pale Rider]

You are a faggot! It explains why you like to dress up like members of the village people. You've only copped to the biker and cowboy, but I've no doubt there's a toolbelt and hard hat, along with an Indian headdress in your closet.

............. :laugh: ................ :lol: .............. :lmao: ........... you've been reduced to a wise cracking idiot, because that's all you've got left.......... :fu:

[bullypulpit]

Your choice of words seems indicative to your own hidden feelings bull.

On top of that, "revulsion" is what any "normal" person feels when they envision two men sucking on each others cock and then ramming them up each others ass. If this DOESN'T "repulse" YOU, then you, bull, are a homosexual. Are you? Maybe your ugly old fat ass can't attract a woman, so you've turned to men.

And I didn't write the Bible. I think you know that. I just believe what it says because I'm a Christian. However, I've known for a long time here that you have a personal HATE for religion, specifically Christians. You can't even make reference to us without some sort of derogatory sarcasm.


Lets go over this again shall we?

Ho`mo - a person suffering from a mental illness that makes them feel sexually attracted to the same sex.

Pho`bi`a - a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity

You and others seem to use your favorite liberal, distraction, buzz word out of context so often, I'm begining to think you're really that dumb. No one here has EVER expressed "FEAR" of a homo. "REVULSION"... being your own word, which is 100% correct. Where did you all of a sudden lose your train of thought? Oh yeah... when you wanted to turn on the insult machine. Got'cha. Even though they're even the same old stale crap. You need to brighten up act bull... your insults are stale.

<blockquote>Care to debate the issue in terms other than those of personal revulsion and religious dogma? Didn't think so.</blockquote>

Nice of you to prove me right.

[Pale Rider]

Care to debate the issue in terms other than those of personal revulsion and religious dogma?

Go for it. I'll even leave out the insults... if you do too.

[GW in Ohio]

I don't know what God you're talking about shit stain, but it isn't the God of Christianity.


I quoting the Bible, not judging. Get that straight moron.

And don't think for one second that the Lord doesn't know what's in your heart. You in here spouting off that "sex just isn't that important," when God has made it perfectly clear IT IS, you better be on your knees asking for his forgiveness.

Hell is where the Bible says homos and liars are going, not me. Get that straight too mutton head. Don't blame the messenger for the message. If you don't like the fact that homos will surely be put to death, then you have to blame the Bible.

Now tell us the Bible is wrong ass wad.

Pale Rider: Do you think you're a good advertisement for what Christianity is all about? Do you think you exemplify what Christ was talking about?

Some people here might say you're a poster boy for more funding for mental health.

But not me. I think you're a wonderful person.

[Pale Rider]

Pale Rider: Do you think you're a good advertisement for what Christianity is all about? Do you think you exemplify what Christ was talking about?

Some people here might say you're a poster boy for more funding for mental health.

But not me. I think you're a wonderful person.

I never claimed to be a saint. Quite on the contrary, I've admitted I'm rough around the edges. I've lived a hard life and have outlaws for friends. But I've also been reborn in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will never catch me denying my Lord, my God.

Now all bull shit aside, keeping ones faith in their heart is what Christianity is all about, admitting your sins, and accepting Jesus as your only way into heaven. Have you done any of that?

Now don't lie, because I may not be able to tell, but the Lord will, unless you don't give a damn about your soul.

[bullypulpit]

Go for it. I'll even leave out the insults... if you do too.

Fire when ready.

[GW in Ohio]

I never claimed to be a saint. Quite on the contrary, I've admitted I'm rough around the edges. I've lived a hard life and have outlaws for friends. But I've also been reborn in the name of Jesus Christ, and you will never catch me denying my Lord, my God.

Now all bull shit aside, keeping ones faith in their heart is what Christianity is all about, admitting your sins, and accepting Jesus as your only way into heaven. Have you done any of that?

Now don't lie, because I may not be able to tell, but the Lord will, unless you don't give a damn about your soul.

Pale Rider: I'm happy when anyone finds religion, because it generally makes them a better person.

But no, I don't think accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is the only way to salvation.

I do think it's a valid path for a lot of people, though.

[Abbey Marie]

Pale Rider: I'm happy when anyone finds religion, because it generally makes them a better person.

But no, I don't think accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is the only way to salvation.

I do think it's a valid path for a lot of people, though.

He is either the only way, or he is a liar and no way at all. Your choice, though.

[Pale Rider]

Fire when ready.

You put forth the challenge as though you had something worthy and new to say.... let's hear it.... balls in your court.

[Pale Rider]

Pale Rider: I'm happy when anyone finds religion, because it generally makes them a better person.

But no, I don't think accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is the only way to salvation.

I do think it's a valid path for a lot of people, though.

Well, let me educate you, because what you're thinking is wrong, about many things, let alone the Bible....

John 14:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


There... now you won't sound dumb any more about how to get to heaven.

[GW in Ohio]

He is either the only way, or he is a liar and no way at all. Your choice, though.

Excuse me while I clear my throat, here, Abbey.......

Bullshit

Ah, that's better......

[bullypulpit]

You put forth the challenge as though you had something worthy and new to say.... let's hear it.... balls in your court.

What's new to add...? There is no rational basis for discrimination against gays and lesbians under the law. Modern critics of homosexuality use the "rhetoric of the natural" as the basis for their claims. Yet this is no more than the argument that homosexuality is sinful, all dressed up in secular clothing, and it is just as empty.

There is no demonstrable harm in permitting same gender couples the same rights, privileges and responsibilities under the law that their married straight counterparts enjoy. Allowing same gender couples to marry is good for the same reasons it is good for traditional couples to marry. A society with a lot of successful marriages is a more stable, safe and successful society. What difference does it make whether the partners are of the same or different gender? None.

Your turn.

[Abbey Marie]

Excuse me while I clear my throat, here, Abbey.......

Bullshit

Ah, that's better......

So eloquent.

I am trying to figure out if you are truly ignorant of the Bible, or just being provocative. Anyway, my post is the absolute truth. I'll break it down for you again. Either you believe his words (which Pale posted, btw), in which case he is the only way, or you believe he is a liar. In which case he is most certainly not the way at all.

So which part of that in your opinion, is bs? This should be good...

[glockmail]

But does it matter if it's not sanctioned by God? Not everyone believes in God, and no one should have to conform to the rules of someone who may not even exist.
If you don't belive in God then that's your choice. All I'm asking is that y'all don't claim that God doesn't say that queerness ain't a sin.

[My Winter Storm]

If you don't belive in God then that's your choice. All I'm asking is that y'all don't claim that God doesn't say that queerness ain't a sin.

I won't say that. But just because homosexuality may be a sin doesn't mean gays should not be allowed to marry. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexual marriage.

[manu1959]

I won't say that. But just because homosexuality may be a sin doesn't mean gays should not be allowed to marry. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexual marriage.

there is nothing in the bible about girl on girl action.......so you are cool.....send pics...

[bullypulpit]

If you don't belive in God then that's your choice. All I'm asking is that y'all don't claim that God doesn't say that queerness ain't a sin.

Your post begs the question of just how anyone knows exactly what some metaphysical, omnipotent, omniscient being which is beyond human experience wants. Every instance of someone claiming to know "God's will" presents only their internal, subjective experience, and cannot provide ANY objective and independently verifiable evidence as to what that "will" is. It is the failing of all revealed religions.

[bullypulpit]

He is either the only way, or he is a liar and no way at all. Your choice, though.

And that attitude is the second failing of religion.

"It doesn't matter what you believe, but if you don't believe as I (we) do, you're damned for all eternity."

Just a grown up version of the sand-box argument between children, "I'm right...You're not...So there!"

[actsnoblemartin]

let me get this straight, you want proof of what god said about homosexuality. Its called beliefs for a reason. what youre asking for, and youre argument is absurd.

You wanna throw out the baby with the bath water. Lets condemn christians, because they believe something i dont like, funny, how i dont see you criticizing judaism and islamfor believing the same thing


Your post begs the question of just how anyone knows exactly what some metaphysical, omnipotent, omniscient being which is beyond human experience wants. Every instance of someone claiming to know "God's will" presents only their internal, subjective experience, and cannot provide ANY objective and independently verifiable evidence as to what that "will" is. It is the failing of all revealed religions.

[actsnoblemartin]

I think you have a point here, it is bothersome that certain individuals, NOT just gays, are condemned to hell. I personally dont like the condemn game, hehehe.


And that attitude is the second failing of religion.

"It doesn't matter what you believe, but if you don't believe as I (we) do, you're damned for all eternity."

Just a grown up version of the sand-box argument between children, "I'm right...You're not...So there!"

[bullypulpit]

let me get this straight, you want proof of what god said about homosexuality. Its called beliefs for a reason. what youre asking for, and youre argument is absurd.

You wanna throw out the baby with the bath water. Lets condemn christians, because they believe something i dont like, funny, how i dont see you criticizing judaism and islamfor believing the same thing

You missed the point Marty. The question of knowing the will of one's favorite deity is global. Any pronouncement on any matter, if it is claimed to be the "will of God" is questionable as the one uttering the pronouncement is basing it on their own subjective and internal experience. Thus these pronouncements characterized as "the will of God" cannot be objectively and independently verified.

Humans have a long history of believing in the unprovable and the patently absurd. Nothing is going to change that any time soon.

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree that we as a nation, and a global community get in and have gotten in trouble over pretending we have god's email address, or know exactly what god's thinks or feels, at best its an educated guess.

the only this is, i dont thing believing in god, even though unprovable is always a bad thing, or absurd


You missed the point Marty. The question of knowing the will of one's favorite deity is global. Any pronouncement on any matter, if it is claimed to be the "will of God" is questionable as the one uttering the pronouncement is basing it on their own subjective and internal experience. Thus these pronouncements characterized as "the will of God" cannot be objectively and independently verified.

Humans have a long history of believing in the unprovable and the patently absurd. Nothing is going to change that any time soon.

[glockmail]

I won't say that. But just because homosexuality may be a sin doesn't mean gays should not be allowed to marry. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexual marriage. There's noting in the Bible against eating shit either. Some things you need to use common sense.

[glockmail]

Your post begs the question of just how anyone knows exactly what some metaphysical, omnipotent, omniscient being which is beyond human experience wants. Every instance of someone claiming to know "God's will" presents only their internal, subjective experience, and cannot provide ANY objective and independently verifiable evidence as to what that "will" is. It is the failing of all revealed religions. See post below to Sharon.

[GW in Ohio]

So eloquent.

I am trying to figure out if you are truly ignorant of the Bible, or just being provocative. Anyway, my post is the absolute truth. I'll break it down for you again. Either you believe his words (which Pale posted, btw), in which case he is the only way, or you believe he is a liar. In which case he is most certainly not the way at all.

So which part of that in your opinion, is bs? This should be good...

Abbey: Christianity and Islam share the same unfortunate claim to absolutism, i.e., "This is the only true religion....all others are bunk, and everyone must sign on to our religion, or they're screwed for all eternity."

When you buy into the notion that yours is the only true religion, and all others are false, you tend to start devaluing people who don't subscribe to your religion. History (and current events) are full of examples of Christians and Muslims murdering, torturing and otherwise abusing non-believers and heretics.

Many of the problems in today's world are rooted in the Middle East and stem from this religious intolerance that is an unfortunate characteristic of Christianity and Islam. The current American president exemplifies this "my way or the highway" attitude that has caused antagonism between Christianity and Islam all the way back to the Crusades.

[actsnoblemartin]

Im confused, christian intolerance in the middle east caused muslims to commit jihad?

other then this sentence because i dont see how its christiniatys fault for islams blood lust since mohammed died

any of the problems in today's world are rooted in the Middle East and stem from this religious intolerance that is an unfortunate characteristic of Christianity and Islam.


Abbey: Christianity and Islam share the same unfortunate claim to absolutism, i.e., "This is the only true religion....all others are bunk, and everyone must sign on to our religion, or they're screwed for all eternity."

When you buy into the notion that yours is the only true religion, and all others are false, you tend to start devaluing people who don't subscribe to your religion. History (and current events) are full of examples of Christians and Muslims murdering, torturing and otherwise abusing non-believers and heretics.

Many of the problems in today's world are rooted in the Middle East and stem from this religious intolerance that is an unfortunate characteristic of Christianity and Islam. The current American president exemplifies this "my way or the highway" attitude that has caused antagonism between Christianity and Islam all the way back to the Crusades.

[GW in Ohio]

Im confused, christian intolerance in the middle east caused muslims to commit jihad?

other then this sentence because i dont see how its christiniatys fault for islams blood lust since mohammed died

any of the problems in today's world are rooted in the Middle East and stem from this religious intolerance that is an unfortunate characteristic of Christianity and Islam.

Martin: Most of the bad stuff happening in the world today, particularly in the Middle East, is the result of Muslim extremism and intolerance.

But there's always been a tendency on the part of some Christians to want to counter Muslim intolerance with their own intolerance. It's no accident that Islam and Christianity, two of the most intolerant religions of all time, have always been at loggerheads and have frequently committed atrocities in the name of their religion.

And before somebody tries to argue that Christianity is a tolerant religion, let me remind you of the words of my friend Abbey:

"He is either the only way, or he is a liar and no way at all. Your choice, though."

[actsnoblemartin]

I would have to agree, that their are parts of christianity that one can, as you are doing make a logical argument (for debate) that it is intolerant.

See: non jews, gays, crusades, inqusition.

I am glad to see you recognize islam's CURRENT threat, but i agree with you christianity is by no means a saint.

I actually agree with most of what you have said in your recent posts


Martin: Most of the bad stuff happening in the world today, particularly in the Middle East, is the result of Muslim extremism and intolerance.

But there's always been a tendency on the part of some Christians to want to counter Muslim intolerance with their own intolerance. It's no accident that Islam and Christianity, two of the most intolerant religions of all time, have always been at loggerheads and have frequently committed atrocities in the name of their religion.

And before somebody tries to argue that Christianity is a tolerant religion, let me remind you of the words of my friend Abbey:

"He is either the only way, or he is a liar and no way at all. Your choice, though."

[glockmail]

...It's no accident that Islam and Christianity, two of the most intolerant religions of all time, have always been at loggerheads and have frequently committed atrocities in the name of their religion.
....

Can you back this up with some recent examples? Its OK to go back 100 years if you have to. And if you can't do that then go back 1000. I'll wait.

[My Winter Storm]

There's noting in the Bible against eating shit either. Some things you need to use common sense.

There are no people jumping up and down demanding for the right to eat shit.

[My Winter Storm]

there is nothing in the bible about girl on girl action..........

I knew God had a thing for lesbian porn...:finger3:

[glockmail]

There are no people jumping up and down demanding for the right to eat shit.
I just googled "scat eaters rights" and came up with a bundle. I don't dare click on any though. :laugh2:

[My Winter Storm]

I just googled "scat eaters rights" and came up with a bundle. I don't dare click on any though. :laugh2:

I've heard of that. No idea how people can get off on eating shit.

[glockmail]

I've heard of that. No idea how people can get off on eating shit. No doubt some consider it normal, healthy, moral, and all that.

[My Winter Storm]

No doubt some consider it normal, healthy, moral, and all that.

It isn't the same as gay relationships, though. Eating shit is just...how could people even think about doing that?

[actsnoblemartin]

2 girls 1 cup


It isn't the same as gay relationships, though. Eating shit is just...how could people even think about doing that?

[bullypulpit]

No doubt some consider it normal, healthy, moral, and all that.

Coprophilia is a psychopathology, one of several paraphilias listed in the DSMV.

Homosexuality is not. Get over it.

[glockmail]

It isn't the same as gay relationships, though. Eating shit is just...how could people even think about doing that?
I have no idea how a guy could be gay. Are they blind?

[glockmail]

Coprophilia is a psychopathology, one of several paraphilias listed in the DSMV.

Homosexuality is not. Get over it. Used to be until your gay lobby changed that. Next will be shit-eaters. That's what liberals- er- progressives- do.

[bullypulpit]

Used to be until your gay lobby changed that. Next will be shit-eaters. That's what liberals- er- progressives- do.

No, research...independently and repeatably verifiable research...changed that. Sorry, you lose again.

Research, conducted through multiple batteries of psychological testing, involving different test protocols all show the same thing...there is little difference between psychologically healthy heterosexual and homosexual populations. Homosexuality is not a psychopathology, and that myth has long been debunked.

You can find a comprehensive list of these studies and their results <a href=http://www.jeramyt.org/gay/gayscience.html>HERE</a>.

[bullypulpit]

Go for it. I'll even leave out the insults... if you do too.

Given your lack of response, I'll take it that you have none and declare you "beaten like a gong".

[glockmail]

No, research...independently and repeatably verifiable research...changed that. Sorry, you lose again. We can assume then that you are heading up efforts to do the same with shit-eaters.

[bullypulpit]

We can assume then that you are heading up efforts to do the same with shit-eaters.

Not so much. Is that the best you can do when confronted by facts? Poor baby got his binky taken away. Coprophilia is a psychopathology, homosexuality isn't. Game. Set. Match. You lose.

Dismissed.

[glockmail]

Not so much. Is that the best you can do when confronted by facts? Poor baby got his binky taken away. Coprophilia is a psychopathology, homosexuality isn't. Game. Set. Match. You lose.

Dismissed. I always thought tennis was a sissy-boy sport. Now I know.

Are you denying that queers lobbied the psrinks to get their condition off the list? Are you also denying that shit-eaters could then do the same?

[bullypulpit]

I always thought tennis was a sissy-boy sport. Now I know.

Are you denying that queers lobbied the psrinks to get their condition off the list? Are you also denying that shit-eaters could then do the same?

What's to deny? The research showed that homosexuals were as well adjusted as their straight peers. And it was the weight of empirical data, not some mythical "gay lobby", that led to the removal of homosexuality from the DSM.

No such evidence exists for the removal of coprophilia from the DSM.

You lose...again.

[manu1959]

Not so much. Is that the best you can do when confronted by facts? Poor baby got his binky taken away. Coprophilia is a psychopathology, homosexuality isn't. Game. Set. Match. You lose.

Dismissed.

except for homosexuality between a man and a boy....

[Missileman]

except for homosexuality between a man and a boy....

We better add heterosexuality to the DSM then due to all the heterosexuality between men and under-age girls.

[glockmail]

What's to deny? The research showed that homosexuals were as well adjusted as their straight peers. And it was the weight of empirical data, not some mythical "gay lobby", that led to the removal of homosexuality from the DSM.

No such evidence exists for the removal of coprophilia from the DSM.

You lose...again.


We better add heterosexuality to the DSM then due to all the heterosexuality between men and under-age girls.

Good point MM. Of course you ignore that pedophilia is much more prevalent among queers. Same as shit eating is more prevalent among queers.

Yet the claim among queer enablers is that gay ain't a disease.

[bullypulpit]

We better add heterosexuality to the DSM then due to all the heterosexuality between men and under-age girls.

Define "Under age". If it's post pubertal, it's hebephilia, pre-pubertal is pedophilia. In either case, it's mental illnesss in the DSM. Case studies of pedophiles and hebephiles show that they have no readily discernable adult gender identification. Thus, to call those who prey on children "homosexual" is a misconception rooted in the unprofressional prejudices harbored by some psychologists, and an ideological axe to grind on the part of social conservatives.

[bullypulpit]

Good point MM. Of course you ignore that pedophilia is much more prevalent among queers. Same as shit eating is more prevalent among queers.

Yet the claim among queer enablers is that gay ain't a disease.

Do you have evidence to support your assertions? Or are you simply parroting the emetic utterances the "Family Research Council" and others of their ilk vomit forth?

Oh, BTW why your sudden fascination with corporphilia? Curious, perhaps?

[manu1959]

We better add heterosexuality to the DSM then due to all the heterosexuality between men and under-age girls.

hetero peds are as should homo peds.....equal rights under the law.....

[glockmail]

....Case studies of pedophiles and hebephiles show that they have no readily discernable adult gender identification. ..... I love when Liberals try and use logic to furher their agendas. Little boys got the little dingle hanging there, and little girls don't.

You sound like Al Gore with his "no controlling legal authority". :laugh2:

[glockmail]

Do you have evidence to support your assertions? Or are you simply parroting the emetic utterances the "Family Research Council" and others of their ilk vomit forth?

Oh, BTW why your sudden fascination with corporphilia? Curious, perhaps?


Sorry pal, but I'm not going to play your trolling game of bringing you facts only to dismiss them because you don't like who sponsers the website that they were located on.

Queers butt-fuck each other and felate each other. That gets shit into their mouths.

Nor am I curious why. Some things are best left not understood.

[Missileman]

hetero peds are as should homo peds.....equal rights under the law.....

To my knowledge, pedophiles are all considered pathological regardless of the gender of their victims.

[bullypulpit]

Sorry pal, but I'm not going to play your trolling game of bringing you facts only to dismiss them because you don't like who sponsers the website that they were located on.

Queers butt-fuck each other and felate each other. That gets shit into their mouths.

Nor am I curious why. Some things are best left not understood.

Bring facts from reputable sources, peer reviewed articles and studies, as I have done, and there won't be an issue. And while I know it pains you when reality contradicts you narrow, dogmatic view of the world, leaving you more anxious and insecure than you already are...There is <a href=http://www.helpguide.org/mental/social_anxiety_support_symptom_causes_treatment.ht m>help</a>. And you can go <a href=http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/problem_detail_more.asp?SDID=211:1602>HERE</a> also.

[actsnoblemartin]

I get the whole we dont like /agree with homosexuals and stuff.

But acting like the militant gays, by name calling and demeaning people who dont agree with you, is what i find the most gay

[bullypulpit]

Sorry pal, but I'm not going to play your trolling game of bringing you facts only to dismiss them because you don't like who sponsers the website that they were located on.

So...Basically what you're saying is that you got nothin. :slap:

[glockmail]

Bring facts from reputable sources, peer reviewed articles and studies, as I have done, and there won't be an issue. And while I know it pains you when reality contradicts you narrow, dogmatic view of the world, leaving you more anxious and insecure than you already are...There is <a href=http://www.helpguide.org/mental/social_anxiety_support_symptom_causes_treatment.ht m>help</a>. And you can go <a href=http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/problem_detail_more.asp?SDID=211:1602>HERE</a> also.



If your answer is yes, then check off the homophobia symptoms you are ready to live without right now:

I have frightening movies of sameness, monotony, homosexuality, or becoming homosexual running in my head
I experience shortness of breath
When I think of homophobia I breathe rapidly and my heart pounds
While experiencing homophobia I hear a voice inside my head saying things that frighten me
I start to sweat
Homophobia makes me feel nauseous
It gives me feelings of dread which I can't control
My head swims
I obsess about my homophobia
Looks like you need the pill, not me! :lol:

[glockmail]

So...Basically what you're saying is that you got nothin. :slap: Trouble reading again?

[bullypulpit]

Trouble reading again?

None at all old son. You got nothin, so just admit it. :slap:

[glockmail]

Not going to play the game. There's plenty of links to studies in this very thread. Knock yourself out.

[bullypulpit]

Not going to play the game. There's plenty of links to studies in this very thread. Knock yourself out.

Your intellectual bankruptcy is showing. Ya got nothin.

Dismissed.

[glockmail]

Your intellectual bankruptcy is showing. Ya got nothin.

Dismissed. Sorry Teach. Class is still in. :coffee:

[bullypulpit]

Sorry Teach. Class is still in. :coffee:

Well, since you've yet to respond to the points I've made in any meaningful way, I can only assume you've failed the class. So, dismissed.

[glockmail]

Well, since you've yet to respond to the points I've made in any meaningful way, I can only assume you've failed the class. So, dismissed. Sorry Teach, you don't give out the grades here. :laugh2:

[bullypulpit]

Sorry Teach, you don't give out the grades here. :laugh2:

And you don't make the grade. Care to debate the issues I've raised...? Or are you simply going to continue crawdaddin' away from them with your sophomoric excuses. My money is on the latter.

[glockmail]

And you don't make the grade. Care to debate the issues I've raised...? Or are you simply going to continue crawdaddin' away from them with your sophomoric excuses. My money is on the latter.
Again, you don't dole out the grades here.

The issues that you claim to have raised have been raised previously by other posters. You are not as original as you assert. It's not up to me to spoon feed you my prior responses.

Continued attempts to try and place this burden on me are merely an indication that you are not only the Chief Queer Enabler here but also the Board Troll. My money is on your continued whining about this, followed by predictable insults and accusations of “homophobia”. It would be sad if not so amusing.

[bullypulpit]

Again, you don't dole out the grades here.

The issues that you claim to have raised have been raised previously by other posters. You are not as original as you assert. It's not up to me to spoon feed you my prior responses.

Continued attempts to try and place this burden on me are merely an indication that you are not only the Chief Queer Enabler here but also the Board Troll. My money is on your continued whining about this, followed by predictable insults and accusations of “homophobia”. It would be sad if not so amusing.


:dance:

[actsnoblemartin]

you're all wrong :laugh2:, I dole out the grades :coffee:

[bullypulpit]

Since Glock has abdicated any attempt at rational discussion, I offer the following:

<blockquote> The following studies represent the evidence that homosexuality is not pathological, and comes from studies that were primarily done in the 60's, 70's and 80's. There were many studies done after the classical study by Evelyn Hooker in 1957, representing the large body of studies from the 60's -70's. The studies become fewer as the 80's progressed and very few studies can be found in the 90's. <b>Since all of the evidence is convergent, no further studies were warranted, as indicated by the progressive decline in the number of studies through the decades. The conclusion is that homosexuality evidenced no pathological characteristics that were significantly different from heterosexuals</b>.

1. MMPI data:

L Braaten- 1965, Genetic Psychology Monographs 71:269-310
R Dean-1964, J of Consulting Psychology 28 483-86
W Horstman-1972, Homosexuality and Psychopathology (dissertation)
Adelman-1977, Arch of Sex Beh 6(3):193-201
Oberstone-1976, Psychology of Women Quarterly 1(2):172-86

# Other tests (Eysenck's Personality Inventory, Cattel's 16PF, California Personality Inventory, etc)
R Evans- 1970, J of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 34:212-15
R Turner-1974, Br J of Psychiatry 125:447-49
M Siegelman-1972, Br J of Psychiatry 120:477-481
M Siegelman-1972, Archives of Sexual Behavior 2:9-25
M Freedman-1971, Homosexuality and Psychological Functioning, Brooks/Cole Publ.
J Hopkins-1969, Br J of Psychiatry 115:1433-1436
M Wilson-1971, Psychological Reports 25:407-412
N Thompson- 1971 J of Abnormal Psychology 78:237-40
E Ohlson-1974, J of Sex Research 10:308-315
D Christie-1986, Psychological Reports 59:1279-1282
H Carlson-1984, Sex Roles 10:457-6'7
T Clark-1975, Am J of Psychoanalysis 35:163-68
R LaTorre-1983, J of Homosexuality 9:87-97,
P Nurius-1983, J of Sex Research 19:119-36
C Rand- 1982, J of Homosexuality 8(1):27-39
J Harry-1983, Archives of Sexual Behavior 12:1-19
E Hooker-1957, J of Projective Techniques 21:18-31</blockquote>

This is a short bibliography of the studies done since the 1950's which showed no difference between homosexuals and their straight counterparts. Since the conservative movement found its voice in America in the 90's social conservatives and their allies have sought to undermine this finding through the use of meta-analysis and cherry-picking of flawed studies which seemed to support their contention that homosexuality was, indeed a psychopathology.

[glockmail]

Since Glock has abdicated any attempt at rational discussion, I offer the following:

<blockquote> ..... <b> The conclusion is that homosexuality evidenced no pathological characteristics that were significantly different from heterosexuals</b>.

.....</blockquote>

Main Entry: path•o•log•i•cal
1: of or relating to pathology
2: altered or caused by disease; also : indicative of disease
3: being such to a degree that is extreme, excessive, or markedly abnormal

Thank you for the evidence that Queer Enablers are alive and well in the Pshrink industry.

But, prior posts here have shown that a large percentage of homosexuals can be cured. “Cure” indicates relief from a disease.

Prior posts have also shown that homosexuals account for about 1% of the population, a number that is indicative of a mathematical abnormality.

[glockmail]

Oops- looks like I made a mistake. The % queer in the US is not 1%, but 0.42%.


Here are a few overall statistics from the Census
Bureau:

• The total population of the United States is
285,230,516
• The total number of households in the U.S.
is 106,741,426.
• The total number of unmarried same-sex
households is 601,209.
• The total number of same-sex male unmarried
households is 304,148.
• The total number of female same-sex households
is: 297,061.
• The total number of people who are in unmarried
same-sex relationships is 1,202,418.

This comes to only .42% of the total population.


http://www.traditionalvalues.org/pdf_files/TVCSpecialReportHomosexualCensus.pdf

[kjp]

It amazes me that this thread is allowed to continue. I just joined this forum and I am utterly disgusted.

Glock, it's people like you who give conservatives a bad name. Your fascination and preoccupation with "queers" as you call them is kind of sad actually. Why don't you just come out of the closet already? You have some very deep-seated issues that need to be addressed. Did your daddy touch you when you were a kid? Did you walk in on him getting spanked by some big bear in leather?

Well in any case, I'm sure you'd never admit it but everyone else can see how transparent you are.

I'm sure you've heard of the famous study ( www .oogachaga .com/downloads/homophobia_and_homosexual_arousal.pdf ) where homophobic men and a non-homophobic control group were shown straight, lesbian, and gay porn? The homophobic group had a significantly higher arousal rate in response to the gay porn than the control group. In fact 9 out of 10 homophobes were aroused by the gay videos.

That's just one of many studies since you like to throw out studies yourself (most of yours are extremely subjective and/or flawed and/or misinterpreted).

One more big point: I'm a gay male in the US, 24 years old, CONSERVATIVE, and I've never told the Census Bureau my sexuality. Do you think maybe your calculations are a bit flawed? I would venture 9 out of 10 gays don't freely admit their sexuality, even for a census, precisely because of their experience with people like you.

Now why don't you go quietly back to your hidden gay porn collection and stop putting your two cents in. This forum would be better off without your opinions. :gives:

This thread needs to be put to rest. We're just enabling this shining star of idiocy by letting him continue to talk about homosexuality. It just turns him on more.

--kjp :salute:

[Abbey Marie]

Kjp,
If you want the thread "put to rest', why dredge it up after 6 months? You seem like the troll here.

Btw, it is obnoxious for a brand new member to go immediately into insulting people, making disgusting assumptions about their childhood, and demanding that threads be closed.

[kjp]

Excuse me? I was just expressing my dissent. I didn't demand anything. Maybe you should look up the definitions of "shall" and "should."

I gave my opinion because it was still one of the most viewed threads. So let me be a little more clear since you seem to want to parse my words: It sickens me that someone was allowed to spew hate speech FOR SO LONG.

As a gay man I find "queer bashing" quite a nasty form of hate speech. As far as my "disgusting assumptions" they're just that--assumptions--and they might very well be true. People who hate other people don't just start hating them one day out of the blue for no apparent reason.

There IS a difference between dissent and hate speech. Sorry you find it obnoxious, Abbey. I found your comment obnoxious too.

--kjp :salute:

"There are men - now in power in this country - who do not respect dissent, who cannot cope with turmoil, and who believe that the people of America are ready to support repression as long as it is done with a quiet voice and a business suit." --John Lindsay

"The great inlet by which a colour for oppression has entered into the world is by one man's pretending to determine concerning the happiness of another." --Edmund Burke

"The fundamentalist mind, running in a single rut for fifty years, is now quite unable to comprehend dissent from its basic superstitions, or to grant any common honesty, or even any decency, to those who reject them" --Henry Louis Menchen

"Has there ever been a society which has died of dissent? Several have died of conformity in our lifetime." --Jacob Bronowski

[Yurt]

glock is banned genius

[stephanie]

OH MY SIDES..:laugh2:

[kjp]

I saw that, genius. I was just amazed it went on so long.

[red states rule]

Excuse me? I was just expressing my dissent. I didn't demand anything. Maybe you should look up the definitions of "shall" and "should."

I gave my opinion because it was still one of the most viewed threads. So let me be a little more clear since you seem to want to parse my words: It sickens me that someone was allowed to spew hate speech FOR SO LONG.

As a gay man I find "queer bashing" quite a nasty form of hate speech. As far as my "disgusting assumptions" they're just that--assumptions--and they might very well be true. People who hate other people don't just start hating them one day out of the blue for no apparent reason.

There IS a difference between dissent and hate speech. Sorry you find it obnoxious, Abbey. I found your comment obnoxious too.

--kjp :salute:

"There are men - now in power in this country - who do not respect dissent, who cannot cope with turmoil, and who believe that the people of America are ready to support repression as long as it is done with a quiet voice and a business suit." --John Lindsay

"The great inlet by which a colour for oppression has entered into the world is by one man's pretending to determine concerning the happiness of another." --Edmund Burke

"The fundamentalist mind, running in a single rut for fifty years, is now quite unable to comprehend dissent from its basic superstitions, or to grant any common honesty, or even any decency, to those who reject them" --Henry Louis Menchen

"Has there ever been a society which has died of dissent? Several have died of conformity in our lifetime." --Jacob Bronowski


Wow

A newbie with an attitude and a chip on the shoulder

If you are utterly disgusted, please, locate the exit and leave

[stephanie]

SO, you just decided to rant to someone who wasn't here??

loony toon

:tinfoil:

[red states rule]

SO, you just decided to rant to someone who wasn't here??

Scary

:tinfoil:

and about a thread that has been dormant for 6 months

[kjp]

I said what I wanted to say. Sorry you disagree. I like the site otherwise!

-kjp :salute:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." --Evelyn Beatrice Hall

[5stringJeff]

As a gay man I find "queer bashing" quite a nasty form of hate speech.

kjp, just so that you're aware, the owner of the board, jimnyc, allows virtually all speech on this board, including what others might consider "hate speech." So if you're easily offended, this may not be the board for you. Please review the "Rules" section, if you haven't already. If you have any other questions, please feel free to contact a moderator or admin (whose names are in bold).

[stephanie]

well, I am a straight woman...

just thought I should advertise it to the world..:rolleyes:

[Yurt]

SO, you just decided to rant to someone who wasn't here??

loony toon

:tinfoil:

:laugh2:

this guy is going to be great fun, glad you like the board!

[actsnoblemartin]

legality and morality. I love the philosphical debate.

I think in america, we are a great country because we tolerate kooks from all points of view, not just the left and right.

as long as the kooks dont harm anyone, let them have their fun.

personally, I am against gay bashing

and im a straight male

:coffee:


:laugh2:

this guy is going to be great fun, glad you like the board!

[crin63]

He probably wants gay rights but not free speech. That sounds about right.

[actsnoblemartin]

common people, give the new guy a chance.


I said what I wanted to say. Sorry you disagree. I like the site otherwise!

-kjp :salute:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." --Evelyn Beatrice Hall

[actsnoblemartin]

I think we're in iran, when you have the right to have something, but not the right to criticize.

if good men and women arent allowed the right to disagree, have their character smeared, are threatened with violence and intimidation for not agreeing on any issue.

then we dont have a democracy, but a theocracy, where only one side of the issue is allowed.

thats not tolerance, thats fake or forced acceptence


He probably wants gay rights but not free speech. That sounds about right.

[kjp]

Thank you so much 5stringJeff. I'm well aware that this is a privately owned board and the protections enumerated in the First Amendment don't quite extend here...even though Hate Speech is protected by said amendment (gee it feels like Junior High Gov't class all over again). But I digress.

Didn't mean to get all your panties in a bunch. It just seems like people who profess to be in favor of rights for others (even though like I said this is a privately owned board, but the principle still stands) like to quash a dissenting viewpoint if it's not the majority viewpoint.

...all I'm sayin' is all. Thx.

--kjp :salute:

[Abbey Marie]

Excuse me? I was just expressing my dissent. I didn't demand anything. Maybe you should look up the definitions of "shall" and "should."

I gave my opinion because it was still one of the most viewed threads. So let me be a little more clear since you seem to want to parse my words: It sickens me that someone was allowed to spew hate speech FOR SO LONG.

As a gay man I find "queer bashing" quite a nasty form of hate speech. As far as my "disgusting assumptions" they're just that--assumptions--and they might very well be true. People who hate other people don't just start hating them one day out of the blue for no apparent reason.

There IS a difference between dissent and hate speech. Sorry you find it obnoxious, Abbey. I found your comment obnoxious too.

--kjp :salute:

...


Please keep throwing around the "hate speech" accusations. It's overused almost to the point of being meaningless, and your posts might just put it over the top.

I would suggest you read Jeff's post carefully. We are far from the kind of board or posters who "fold" when someone throws around PC accusations. Does that really work for you anywhere?

Btw, I wouldn't want you to be misled. Glockmail wasn't banned for his posts about gays.

[actsnoblemartin]

I agree that bashing gays, is like saying the sky is blue, but once we let the government tell us what we can and cant say i think were in big trouble


some people do like to quash others view points, ive seen it from both sides of the isle

youre a smart guy, i hope you stick around


Thank you so much 5stringJeff. I'm well aware that this is a privately owned board and the protections enumerated in the First Amendment don't quite extend here...even though Hate Speech is protected by said amendment (gee it feels like Junior High Gov't class all over again). But I digress.

Didn't mean to get all your panties in a bunch. It just seems like people who profess to be in favor of rights for others (even though like I said this is a privately owned board, but the principle still stands) like to quash a dissenting viewpoint if it's not the majority viewpoint.

...all I'm sayin' is all. Thx.

--kjp :salute:

[Abbey Marie]

common people, give the new guy a chance.


Martin,
This new guy's first post suggested that a banned member might have had pedophilic sex with his own father. You should save your caring for someone who might actually deserve it.

[actsnoblemartin]

I can understand his reaction though.

and ill leave it at that (this comes after reading said post)


Martin,
This new guy's first post suggested that a banned member might have had pedophilic sex with his own father. You should save your caring for someone who might actually deserve it.

[LiberalNation]

after reading crap just as bad from said member.......

[actsnoblemartin]

glock is banned genius

he's still on the other board :coffee:

[kjp]

Come on Abbey. There's no need to be insulting. Why don't you read my last post. I'm sorry you hate me because I said something you don't agree with. Damn.

I'm a conservative college student who happens to be gay. Believe me, if it were something I could change, I would have changed it a LOOOOONG time ago. I keep my lifestyle to myself and respect others unless they disrespect me. I don't like people like you who don't like other people just because they're in some way slightly different from you.

It's people like you who give conservatives a bad name. It's is liberals who slowly chip away our rights in this country but no one focuses on them because of a few crazy rightwinger fundies who are chipping away just that much harder.

--kjp :salute:

[actsnoblemartin]

do you follow me around or something

:lol:


after reading crap just as bad from said member.......

[actsnoblemartin]

ignore it kjp.

you dont need others approval for what your attracted to, as long as its legal.

dont let anyone get you down.

you got a friend here, if you want.

im straight, 28, not sure if im con or dem yet.

still in the closet on that one :coffee:


Come on Abbey. There's no need to be insulting. Why don't you read my last post. I'm sorry you hate me because I said something you don't agree with. Damn.

I'm a conservative college student who happens to be gay. Believe me, if it were something I could change, I would have changed it a LOOOOONG time ago. I keep my lifestyle to myself and respect others unless they disrespect me. I don't like people like you who don't like other people just because they're in some way slightly different from you.

It's people like you who give conservatives a bad name. It's is liberals who slowly chip away our rights in this country but no one focuses on them because of a few crazy rightwinger fundies who are chipping away just that much harder.

--kjp :salute:

[kjp]

Re: Glock...
I just asked a question. Was trying to figure out why he was so homophobic. From my experience with homophobic people that has been one of the reasons for being so vehemently antigay. It's a legitimate assumtion. Like I said, the studies have shown that most extremely homophobic people are latently homosexual themselves or have some deeply repressed "gay related" trauma from their childhood.

[kjp]

Thanks Martin :-)

--kjp :salute:

[Abbey Marie]

Come on Abbey. There's no need to be insulting. Why don't you read my last post. I'm sorry you hate me because I said something you don't agree with. Damn.

I'm a conservative college student who happens to be gay. Believe me, if it were something I could change, I would have changed it a LOOOOONG time ago. I keep my lifestyle to myself and respect others unless they disrespect me. I don't like people like you who don't like other people just because they're in some way slightly different from you.

It's people like you who give conservatives a bad name. It's is liberals who slowly chip away our rights in this country but no one focuses on them because of a few crazy rightwinger fundies who are chipping away just that much harder.

--kjp :salute:

Kjp,
You sure do throw around that "hate" word a lot. I never came close to showing hatred towards you. Frankly, the most hateful thing I've seen on this thread in the last six months, is your suggestion that Glock may have had peodphilic sex with his father. Did you really think that no one would respond negatively to you for stating such a thing?

I also have said nothing to indicate that I "don't like people because they are in some way slightly different from me". That's projection on your part.

You are young. You will hopefully learn in time to calm down and not jump to conclusions about people you do not know. You will hopefully learn not to throw wild accusations at people you do not know. And finally, you will hopefully reduce the size of that giant chip on your shoulder. :)

Sincerely,
She Who Gives Conservatives a Bad Name

[kjp]

How young is young? Depends on how old YOU are I guess. I don't think I'm jumping to conclusions, just making some observations.
I'm allowed to read a post I find offensive and comment on it and comment about the mind of the poster (talking about original post) aren't I?
You basically defended Glock's viewpoint by saying that's not why he got banned. So I think I can infer a few things from that :-)

[actsnoblemartin]

he is on another message board, ask the mods for the name of it, and if he still has the screen name


Re: Glock...
I just asked a question. Was trying to figure out why he was so homophobic. From my experience with homophobic people that has been one of the reasons for being so vehemently antigay. It's a legitimate assumtion. Like I said, the studies have shown that most extremely homophobic people are latently homosexual themselves or have some deeply repressed "gay related" trauma from their childhood.

[kjp]

Can we just end this? Jebus...That's a few hours I'll never get back.

[Kathianne]

Can we just end this? Jebus...That's a few hours I'll never get back.

Ummm, you started the bump.

[kjp]

Yes and I'm truly regretting it. Like I said...time I'll never get back...it wasn't even the kind of argument you get something out of in the end.

[actsnoblemartin]

how has your day been, and life is too short for regrets

arguments are wastes of time


Yes and I'm truly regretting it. Like I said...time I'll never get back...it wasn't even the kind of argument you get something out of in the end.

[actsnoblemartin]

kjp, listen to me

he who walks away, ends the argument.

in other words, if you quit talking about it, everyone else will eventually :)

[stephanie]

Come on Abbey. There's no need to be insulting. Why don't you read my last post. I'm sorry you hate me because I said something you don't agree with. Damn.

I'm a conservative college student who happens to be gay. Believe me, if it were something I could change, I would have changed it a LOOOOONG time ago. I keep my lifestyle to myself and respect others unless they disrespect me. I don't like people like you who don't like other people just because they're in some way slightly different from you.

It's people like you who give conservatives a bad name. It's is liberals who slowly chip away our rights in this country but no one focuses on them because of a few crazy right winger fundies who are chipping away just that much harder.

--kjp :salute:

you came out blasting hate at someone on this board, so don't go around and play the poor victim now...

you present yourself as a typical whiner...poor poor pitiful me

grow up

[hjmick]

Are you shitting me? Some FNG dredges up a six months dead thread and we get another three pages? Wow. And a hater on top of it all. The future's so bright...

[actsnoblemartin]

im still waiting for proof on this :coffee:


In another thread I have been attacked as having "issues" because I have a adverse opinion of queers and post my opinion often on the queer threads. The fact is that I do it because I don't like being lied to, and the entire queer "industry" is based on several huge lies. I would argue that the queer enablers are the ones with "issues", as they don't mind being lied to, and in fact perpetuate the lies.

Some of the Big Lies about Homosexuality. It is:

1. normal
2. natural
3. healthy
4. 10% of the population
5. not a choice
6. moral
7. queers are no more likely to be child molesters

Any that I missed? :poke:

[glockmail]

im still waiting for proof on this :coffee:
Pick one or go back and read the thread from the beginning. *shrug*

[actsnoblemartin]

In another thread I have been attacked as having "issues" because I have a adverse opinion of queers and post my opinion often on the queer threads. The fact is that I do it because I don't like being lied to, and the entire queer "industry" is based on several huge lies. I would argue that the queer enablers are the ones with "issues", as they don't mind being lied to, and in fact perpetuate the lies.

Some of the Big Lies about Homosexuality. It is:

1. normal
2. natural
3. healthy
4. 10% of the population
5. not a choice
6. moral
7. queers are no more likely to be child molesters

Any that I missed? :poke:

I am still waiting for proof on any one of these 7 mate.

[glockmail]

I am still waiting for proof on any one of these 7 mate.http://www.debatepolicy.com/showpost.php?p=75873&postcount=45

[Sparrow Hawk]

In another thread I have been attacked as having "issues" because I have a adverse opinion of queers and post my opinion often on the queer threads. The fact is that I do it because I don't like being lied to, and the entire queer "industry" is based on several huge lies. I would argue that the queer enablers are the ones with "issues", as they don't mind being lied to, and in fact perpetuate the lies.

Some of the Big Lies about Homosexuality. It is:

1. normal
2. natural
3. healthy
4. 10% of the population
5. not a choice
6. moral
7. queers are no more likely to be child molesters

Any that I missed? :poke:
Queers are not normal people,Romans 1:26-32.Their enablers are much more dangerous that queers themselves.GLBT lobby including Hollywood(Homowood)plus judicial activism that violates will of the people are the way to end our liberty.

[Sparrow Hawk]

I fully support Gay and Lesbian rights and I am not nor have I ever been a liar.

Those who support GLBT rights will end up in Hell as well as gays. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.God is not mocked,Galatians 6:7.Deal with it.

[Obey Obey Obey]

Those who support GLBT rights will end up in Hell as well as gays. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.God is not mocked,Galatians 6:7.Deal with it.

Romans 1:32 is pretty clear on brute beast(2 Peter 2:12) enablers will receive the same penalty as the natural brute beast(filthy stupid animal)

[Sparrow Hawk]

Romans 1:32 is pretty clear on brute beast(2 Peter 2:12) enablers will receive the same penalty as the natural brute beast(filthy stupid animal)
The enablers who enable sodomites are much more evil than sodomites themselves.They are the same children of sin who are filled with lusts of this world and all corruption.

[glockmail]

Bump. :laugh2:

[LuvRPgrl]

im still waiting for proof on this :coffee:

WOW !! You waited 7 months, you have much more patience than I. :)

I am kinda curious, you never heard the number "10%" persistently being claimed as the number of homosexuals in our society? Cuz it was the "standard" accepted claim for a period of time, until it came out that the study that made such a claim was a totally bogus one involving child molestors or some such thing.

[actsnoblemartin]

glock and I are really good freinds, ok I consider him a dear friend.

He doesnt have to prove anything to me.

we have different views, but on the majority of views i believe we agree.

conservatives dont have to agree on everything :beer:

[LuvRPgrl]

glock and I are really good freinds, ok I consider him a dear friend.

He doesnt have to prove anything to me.

we have different views, but on the majority of views i believe we agree.

conservatives dont have to agree on everything :beer:

Of course not, example, I believe in legalizing drugs, prostitution and I think we should have open borders (Jesus didnt have a passport)

Basically, I think Libertarians, who are conservatives, have a number of philosophical differences based mostly on philosophy and not based on misuse, abuse and delusional denial of facts, like liberals do.

[82Marine89]

Of course not, example, I believe in legalizing drugs, prostitution and I think we should have open borders (Jesus didnt have a passport)

Basically, I think Libertarians, who are conservatives, have a number of philosophical differences based mostly on philosophy and not based on misuse, abuse and delusional denial of facts, like liberals do.

Are not all philosophical differences based on philosophy? :poke:

[LuvRPgrl]

Are not all philosophical differences based on philosophy? :poke:

ARRRRRRRGGG, You had to go and actually READ my post.. :))

It did still get my point across?

[82Marine89]

ARRRRRRRGGG, You had to go and actually READ my post.. :))

It did still get my point across?

Yes. Even as a Libertarian I know what you mean.