Who and what goes to "Eternal Life" ?

[-Cp]

Okay - just to set this going the right direction - this thread is to debate what is needed to "get into heaven".

To me, it's quite clear in John 3:16; however, it seems many Christians think a person cannot be "born again" and yet misguidedly attend a "cult church" like LDS or JW etc..

I see no conditions of salvation outside of John 3:16 in scripture but I there is clear verbage on a heavenly reward....

[chum43]

john 3:16 has always been a strange one to me, as if there were no eternal life before christ died... like some refresher or restart...

anyway I don't believe in the eternal soul, so I can't say exactly what I believe, but if I had to go by what I've read and all the different religions and their take on heaven, if heaven exists I would have to guess it's on a case by case basis based on how well you lived the "good" and "righteous" existence and whether or not you directly defied god and christ.

I would have to think this "whosoever believeth in him" stuff is more of a "don't defy him" than an actual belief in him, mostly because I can't imagine someone who lived the christian way and lived a good and righteous life getting turned down because he or she had never heard of or been taught about jesus, it's not like everyone on earth is born with knowledge of christ, so it seems silly that the belief in him would be the actual requirement, i would think it was more of a refusal to follow him than an actual belief.

[avatar4321]

Being the lawyer I am I have to point out that the interpretation of that verse depends on what the definition of "believe" is.

I am willing to bet that everyone will say that they believe in Christ. Heck, Im willing to bet some muslims will say they believe in Christ, i just dont think it will mean what Christians mean.

And just a reminder for people who dont remember or might be new. I am LDS.

[Gaffer]

john 3:16 has always been a strange one to me, as if there were no eternal life before christ died... like some refresher or restart...

anyway I don't believe in the eternal soul, so I can't say exactly what I believe, but if I had to go by what I've read and all the different religions and their take on heaven, if heaven exists I would have to guess it's on a case by case basis based on how well you lived the "good" and "righteous" existence and whether or not you directly defied god and christ.

I would have to think this "whosoever believeth in him" stuff is more of a "don't defy him" than an actual belief in him, mostly because I can't imagine someone who lived the christian way and lived a good and righteous life getting turned down because he or she had never heard of or been taught about jesus, it's not like everyone on earth is born with knowledge of christ, so it seems silly that the belief in him would be the actual requirement, i would think it was more of a refusal to follow him than an actual belief.

well said chum.

[JohnDoe]

All I know is that I have Faith that God is Just.

And since Christ is God manifested as man, then John 3:16 could mean that "whosoever believes in Me"

Me, could mean God, no? ;)

[darin]

If one doesn't follow christ, christ's words...the bible...then one cannot believe in him, for to believe in him is to obey him.

[chum43]

If one doesn't follow christ, christ's words...the bible...then one cannot believe in him, for to believe in him is to obey him.

so what about people who were never given the choice? never knew about him or his words and were never taught about him? too bad for them? this is one of the beliefs that leads me towards religion being a bunch of hogwash when taken literally and down to the word... a whole lot of it just doesn't make sense if you take it as the literal unfallible word of god, it just sounds like a big cult.

if this were the case why not have everyone born with the knowledge of christ, or at least ensure that everyone were taught about christ, why would we need missionaries to go around spreading christ to save their soul if it weren't just some big man made following, "believe or go to hell."

[darin]

so what about people who were never given the choice? never knew about him or his words and were never taught about him? too bad for them?

I believe all have the chance to learn of God/Jesus. I believe if ANYONE seeks God, they'll find him. I suppose it's like those who died before christ came to earth, eh?



this is one of the beliefs that leads me towards religion being a bunch of hogwash when taken literally and down to the word...

Appeal to ridicule! nice!


a whole lot of it just doesn't make sense if you take it as the literal unfallible word of god, it just sounds like a big cult.


It makes PERFECT sense when taken in context.



if this were the case why not have everyone born with the knowledge of christ, or at least ensure that everyone were taught about christ, why would we need missionaries to go around spreading christ to save their soul if it weren't just some big man made following, "believe or go to hell."

wha?

[Lightning Waltz]

I don't know whether there is an afterlife or not. I suspect that we just cease to exist after we die. I suspect that people like to believe in an afterlife because it gives them comfort (innate fear of death).

As to what is needed to get into the "heaven" of the specific afterlife that could possibly exist, there is no way of knowing. Each religion seems to have a different answer and even those of the same religion can't seem to agree.

If there are "conditions" to get into an "afterlife", I don't feel that whatever "God" or set of gods set those conditions, has made it clear.

[avatar4321]

Actually its pretty easy to learn. Ask God. The hard part is accepting the answer.

[Lightning Waltz]

Actually its pretty easy to learn. Ask God. The hard part is accepting the answer.

Which "god" should one ask?
Oh, and I doubt that you have ever recieved an "answer".

[Mr. P]

Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. ~ Joseph Campbell

[avatar4321]

Which "god" should one ask?
Oh, and I doubt that you have ever recieved an "answer".

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God the Father, both yours and mine.

And you can doubt it all you want. but its still true.

[Lightning Waltz]

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God the Father, both yours and mine.

And you can doubt it all you want. but its still true.

And you can claim all you want. I still have no reason to believe it.

[Said1]

And you can claim all you want. I still have no reason to believe it.

Believe what? That he received guidance or answers after prayer?

That's something I personally like to call coincidence, which is very profound no matter what you believe, but you probably wouldn't notice that. Ask and ye shall receive, dude.

[Lightning Waltz]

Believe what? That he received guidance or answers after prayer?

That's something I personally like to call coincidence, which is very profound no matter what you believe, but you probably wouldn't notice that. Ask and ye shall receive, dude.

Revelation, by definition, cannot be passed on. It becomes hearsay. Claims of this kind are also not unique to any one religion and those religions seem to be mutually exclusive, so it becomes trickey.

Coincidence, I wouldn't call profound at all. I'd call direct causation of a "God" or set of gods profound.

As for "asking"...that assumes that there is something to ask of...

[glockmail]

.... I am LDS. Won't hold it against you. :poke:

[avatar4321]

Revelation, by definition, cannot be passed on. It becomes hearsay. Claims of this kind are also not unique to any one religion and those religions seem to be mutually exclusive, so it becomes trickey.

Coincidence, I wouldn't call profound at all. I'd call direct causation of a "God" or set of gods profound.

As for "asking"...that assumes that there is something to ask of...

Revelation is not hearsay. When someone tells you what they have experienced and learned, its not hearsay. its personal testimony.

You'd be surprised how many so called "revealed" religions deny revelation.

Ive always found the position are taking the easy way out for the idle person to justify not learning more. "It's all the same, no differences" while denying real differences. if there weren't real differences people wouldnt be able to debate it on end.

Ironically at the same time you are saying there are so many different religions. Either they are all the same or all different. cant be both.

[avatar4321]

And you can claim all you want. I still have no reason to believe it.

You're lack of belief doesn't change the fact that it happened or the fact that I know it happened.

And as long as you continue taking the attitude that no one can find out for themselves, you will never learn.

[Lightning Waltz]

Revelation is not hearsay. When someone tells you what they have experienced and learned, its not hearsay. its personal testimony.

Nope. That's hearsay.


Ive always found the position are taking the easy way out for the idle person to justify not learning more. "It's all the same, no differences" while denying real differences. if there weren't real differences people wouldnt be able to debate it on end.

Ironically at the same time you are saying there are so many different religions. Either they are all the same or all different. cant be both.

That's funny. I've always found it's the person that claims that their religion that is superior, when other religions do the same thing, is taking the easy way out.

Or, the person that claims that claims that their religion is unique while ignoring the differences in other religions is taking the easy way out.

[Lightning Waltz]

You're lack of belief doesn't change the fact that it happened or the fact that I know it happened.

And as long as you continue taking the attitude that no one can find out for themselves, you will never learn.

Your belief doesn't change the fact that it either did or didn't happen.
It also doesn't change the fact that I still have no reason to believe you that it did happen.

Where did I say trhat "no one could find out for themselves"? I simply dismissed your baseless claims that you have given me no reason to believe.

[-Cp]

Your belief doesn't change the fact that it either did or didn't happen.
It also doesn't change the fact that I still have no reason to believe you that it did happen.

Where did I say trhat "no one could find out for themselves"? I simply dismissed your baseless claims that you have given me no reason to believe.

And what the heck do you offer to this thread? Please go away until you can provide thoughts that actually pertain to the topic...

[Lightning Waltz]

And what the heck do you offer to this thread? Please go away until you can provide thoughts that actually pertain to the topic...

I offered my thoughts. They were then questioned by others...and what do you know? Discussion followed. Amazing that should happen on a discussion board, I know.

It's not my problem that you don't like the answers that I give.

[gabosaurus]

Heaven and Hell are essentially beliefs, as is much of the Bible.

[nevadamedic]

Won't hold it against you. :poke:

Me neither