Almost Everything I have comes from non-Americans!

[tailfins]

My loyal wife is from South America. My project lead is Vietnamese. My team lead is from India. My previous Manager was from Russia. I have good relationships with all of the above. One of the reasons I came to this forum was being US born with American roots, it might be a good idea to interact with fellow Americans because in real life I don't very much. It hasn't gone so well. It got me to thinking: Why would I want to sacrifice anything for your freedom? American culture has given me essentially nothing; why should I value it? Sure I vote Republican because it puts more money in my pocket and this society is so badly fallen that it deserves no more of my financial support than I have to. My career and my home life is thanks to those who have roots outside the US. Americans are a stingy people. The women are stingy with their encouragement and a slightly smaller proportion of men are stingy with knowledge. How many Americans have you seen withhold what little knowledge they have as to become "indispensable" in their position? No thanks, competent people share knowledge to free themselves up for a vacation or a promotion. You want me to leave? Show me a gig with a 10% better quality of life and I will be on the plane for an interview. Without my prompting both my sons said they would wait in out in Brazil where they are dual citizens if there were ever a military draft. You know what? I don't blame them. I will say, though I do feel enriched around here at DP because it has sharpened my skills to deal with difficult people. :salute:


So..... keep on being difficult: I need the practice!

[fj1200]

It got me to thinking: Why would I want to sacrifice anything for your freedom? American culture has given me essentially nothing; why should I value it?

American culture has given you essentially everything. We drive the worlds economy, possibly less so now but we are the largest market with the most to spend.

[Larrymc]

My loyal wife is from South America. My project lead is Vietnamese. My team lead is from India. My previous Manager was from Russia. I have good relationships with all of the above. One of the reasons I came to this forum was being US born with American roots, it might be a good idea to interact with fellow Americans because in real life I don't very much. It hasn't gone so well. It got me to thinking: Why would I want to sacrifice anything for your freedom? American culture has given me essentially nothing; why should I value it? Sure I vote Republican because it puts more money in my pocket and this society is so badly fallen that it deserves no more of my financial support than I have to. My career and my home life is thanks to those who have roots outside the US. Americans are a stingy people. The women are stingy with their encouragement and a slightly smaller proportion of men are stingy with knowledge. How many Americans have you seen withhold what little knowledge they have as to become "indispensable" in their position? No thanks, competent people share knowledge to free themselves up for a vacation or a promotion. You want me to leave? Show me a gig with a 10% better quality of life and I will be on the plane for an interview. Without my prompting both my sons said they would wait in out in Brazil where they are dual citizens if there were ever a military draft. You know what? I don't blame them. I will say, though I do feel enriched around here at DP because it has sharpened my skills to deal with difficult people. :salute:

So..... keep on being difficult: I need the practice!With such disdain for American culture, it shouldn't be to hard to find some place better, your boys did why wait.

[tailfins]

With such disdain for American culture, it shouldn't be to hard to find some place better, your boys did why wait.

Why do you think I asked Jafar in another post about what AUS 2,000 per month rent would get you in Sydney? It wasn't a very encourging answer. I imagine my sons will come and go to the US as it suits their needs financially at the moment.

[jimnyc]

You sound much like the muslims I know from around here. They are anti-American and only here for $$ and/or education and then plan on bailing. Maybe you can find a place in Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia? They too like to keep the women beneath them (like every other islamic shithole out there) and also value nothing.

[tailfins]

You sound much like the muslims I know from around here. They are anti-American and only here for $$ and/or education and then plan on bailing. Maybe you can find a place in Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia? They too like to keep the women beneath them (like every other islamic shithole out there) and also value nothing.

Give the Muslims you know this much credit: They make good use of the education offered. They don't spend their time getting drunk at Frat parties so they can be perception managers in training. Instead they use that opportunity to become competent.

[jimnyc]

Give the Muslims you know this much credit: They make good use of the education offered. They don't spend their time getting drunk at Frat parties so they can be perception managers in training. Instead they use that opportunity to become competent.

Uhmmmm, no. 1/2 of them drink and lie about it, the other half gambles when the powerball grows, and also lie about it. They work menial jobs while here and then will take their educations to a shithole country, where of course they "may" get a decent job and then go home to a piece of crap home, beat their multiple wives, force their daughters to cover every inch of their body and plan world domination.

[tailfins]

Uhmmmm, no. 1/2 of them drink and lie about it, the other half gambles when the powerball grows, and also lie about it. They work menial jobs while here and then will take their educations to a shithole country, where of course they "may" get a decent job and then go home to a piece of crap home, beat their multiple wives, force their daughters to cover every inch of their body and plan world domination.

That's regrettable. The US will become a third world country if it continues to tolerate incompetence. Freedom might not be part of that competence equation. Corporatism may save the day.

[revelarts]

That's regrettable. The US will become a third world country if it continues to tolerate incompetence. Freedom might not be part of that competence equation. Corporatism may save the day.

All of those options sound like nightmares to me.

"Corporatism may save the day."?
sounds like, Feudalism may save the day.

Communism may save the day? Capitalism may save the day? Global governance may save the day?
yeah right.

Freedom is an end in itself. And formally the nations highest governing principal.
But since too many Americans have replaced the core ideals of God and freedom below the new holy of holys Safety, Power and Money.
Were in a heep of trouble.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Why do you think I asked Jafar in another post about what AUS 2,000 per month rent would get you in Sydney? It wasn't a very encourging answer. I imagine my sons will come and go to the US as it suits their needs financially at the moment.

Seaforth is a nice area in Sydney, and you can easily get rental properties there around 2,000 AUS. Just check the real estate listings for the greater Sydney area, affordable properties in good areas are quite easy to find.

[tailfins]

Seaforth is a nice area in Sydney, and you can easily get rental properties there around 2,000 AUS. Just check the real estate listings for the greater Sydney area, affordable properties in good areas are quite easy to find.

Nice touch! :clap: I don't care about what spirit information is given in, as long as it's useful actionable information. There may be hope for you yet!

For example, if I have a flat tire and you lend me your air pump because you can't stand the sight of me and want me gone, I don't care because I wouldn't have a flat tire anymore. I would actually prefer that over somebody who commiserates with me, but doesn't have an air pump.

[fj1200]

Communism may save the day? Capitalism may save the day? Global governance may save the day?
yeah right.

Freedom is an end in itself. And formally the nations highest governing principal.

Capitalism would save the day... but for government but yes, liberty should be right up there along with life and property.

[glockmail]

TF has a point. A geographical area is both enhanced by and hindered by it's political entity. Most people understand this at the municipal level: 'that town sucks', so move to a different town. I realized this long ago with states: they are "products" that can, and should be compared to and a choice made where to live based on your needs and desires.

As I near retirement age I am thing about this on a country level. My ancestors made these choices nearly 150 years ago. It's not as easy to do though when you are older, as many require you to work for a certain number of years to gain citizenship. Still others require a certain minimum investment, which shouldn't be a problem if you've made wise investments over time.

I'm proud to be an American because of the American ideals that are codified in The Constitution. Unfortunately Americans have thrown these under the bus, run them over, put the bus in reverse and run over them again and again. So at this point I have little allegiance, if any, to the US of A and would leave for a better place if I knew one existed.

[revelarts]

Capitalism would save the day... but for government but yes, liberty should be right up there along with life and property.

making money won't save the day FJ.
An environment of integrity, humanity and freedom has to be foundational.
If not all you'll get is a land full of thieves, slumlords and dog eat dog lying traders.

Capitalism has no moral root. It's a fair tool in it's place but it can't be the lead dog.
the ideas of liberty, life and property didn't come FROM capitalism, but it can flourish best under it and with it.

Well paid weapons dealers to Alqeada believe in capitalism.

[Abbey Marie]

As I believe Rev alludes, Christians should know who will really "save the day". Ideally these faith-based beliefs will transcend earthly concerns. Not saying I'm any good at it myself, but we should strive to be.

[logroller]

My loyal wife is from South America. My project lead is Vietnamese. My team lead is from India. My previous Manager was from Russia. I have good relationships with all of the above. One of the reasons I came to this forum was being US born with American roots, it might be a good idea to interact with fellow Americans because in real life I don't very much. It hasn't gone so well. It got me to thinking: Why would I want to sacrifice anything for your freedom? American culture has given me essentially nothing; why should I value it? Sure I vote Republican because it puts more money in my pocket and this society is so badly fallen that it deserves no more of my financial support than I have to. My career and my home life is thanks to those who have roots outside the US. Americans are a stingy people. The women are stingy with their encouragement and a slightly smaller proportion of men are stingy with knowledge. How many Americans have you seen withhold what little knowledge they have as to become "indispensable" in their position? No thanks, competent people share knowledge to free themselves up for a vacation or a promotion. You want me to leave? Show me a gig with a 10% better quality of life and I will be on the plane for an interview. Without my prompting both my sons said they would wait in out in Brazil where they are dual citizens if there were ever a military draft. You know what? I don't blame them. I will say, though I do feel enriched around here at DP because it has sharpened my skills to deal with difficult people. :salute:


So..... keep on being difficult: I need the practice!

Uh. Did you just fall off the turnip truck? You code, right? Any guesses where modern coding originated? Here's a hint: not South America, not Vietnam, not India, not Russia.
And those countries, BTW, enjoy the freedom they do have thanks to American culture being spread, not because they reject it.

American culture was embracing automation and computer machination whilst other countries struggled to avail themselves of the industrial age. You seem to think that a 10% better quality of life is derived by chance or something-- Its not by chance-- the free hand of the market exists only because theres someone with a rod to enforce the rules that govern the market-- within a culture that accepts freedom and mutual exchange as mutually beneficial. Now you tell me, where in the world is more economic freedom found: American or Brazil?
Think again...

Brazil’s economic freedom score is 57.7, making its economy the 100th freest in the 2013 Index. Its score is 0.2 point worse than last year, with gains in freedom from corruption and fiscal freedom offset by declines in labor and monetary freedoms. Brazil is ranked 19th out of 29 countries in the South and Central America/Caribbean region, and its overall score is below the world average.
The foundations for long-term economic development remain fragile in Brazil due to the absence of an efficiently functioning legal and regulatory framework. The state maintains an extensive presence in many sectors, and the legacy of decades of central planning is a substantial tolerance for state meddling in economic activity, even where it has demonstrably failed. Despite some progress, corruption continues to be pervasive. http://www.heritage.org/index/country/brazil


The US was ranked tenth. You seem to think that since you can take your skill value, average by American standards, to another country that doesn't have that high of a standard and say, "look how good I can live here." Well no shit sherlock, that's like taking a full cistern from hawaii to the sahara and saying, "look how rich I am here."

Its relative, and America has long served to raise the relative wealth of all those they trade with.

Take American culture out of the equation and your kids would't even have anyone to sell their chicle; let alone debate whether to serve in the draft.

[fj1200]

making money won't save the day FJ.
An environment of integrity, humanity and freedom has to be foundational.
If not all you'll get is a land full of thieves, slumlords and dog eat dog lying traders.

Capitalism has no moral root. It's a fair tool in it's place but it can't be the lead dog.
the ideas of liberty, life and property didn't come FROM capitalism, but it can flourish best under it and with it.

Well paid weapons dealers to Alqeada believe in capitalism.

I'm not talking about making money, I'm talking about Capitalism; The system that has given us virtually every benefit that we have as a society. The system that does a better job of raising people out of poverty than any other system. I beg to differ it has no moral root; competition is its own morality if the foundations of free markets are truly honored and kept with government providing its necessary role.

[logroller]

I'm not talking about making money, I'm talking about Capitalism; The system that has given us virtually every benefit that we have as a society. The system that does a better job of raising people out of poverty than any other system. I beg to differ it has no moral root; competition is its own morality if the foundations of free markets are truly honored and kept with government providing its necessary role.
There's where the hammer hits the proverbial (thumb)nail.

[fj1200]

There's where the hammer hits the proverbial (thumb)nail.

True, but a role it doth has unless you go the Anarcho-Capitalist route.

[logroller]

True, but a role it doth has unless you go the Anarcho-Capitalist route.
Im not disagreeing with you on its necessity. Hobbes and Locke (iirc) already explained the pragmatic role of the rod in liberty's proliferation.

[tailfins]

Uh. Did you just fall off the turnip truck? You code, right? Any guesses where modern coding originated? Here's a hint: not South America, not Vietnam, not India, not Russia.
And those countries, BTW, enjoy the freedom they do have thanks to American culture being spread, not because they reject it.

American culture was embracing automation and computer machination whilst other countries struggled to avail themselves of the industrial age. You seem to think that a 10% better quality of life is derived by chance or something-- Its not by chance-- the free hand of the market exists only because theres someone with a rod to enforce the rules that govern the market-- within a culture that accepts freedom and mutual exchange as mutually beneficial. Now you tell me, where in the world is more economic freedom found: American or Brazil?
Think again...
http://www.heritage.org/index/country/brazil


The US was ranked tenth. You seem to think that since you can take your skill value, average by American standards, to another country that doesn't have that high of a standard and say, "look how good I can live here." Well no shit sherlock, that's like taking a full cistern from hawaii to the sahara and saying, "look how rich I am here."

Its relative, and America has long served to raise the relative wealth of all those they trade with.

Take American culture out of the equation and your kids would't even have anyone to sell their chicle; let alone debate whether to serve in the draft.


We're living off the leftovers from past successes. It's amazing how many things have been dumbed down over the last 20 years. Look at the Society of Actuaries exams over the last 20 years. The knowledge gap between current local talent and current H1Bs is breathtaking.

[Larrymc]

We're living off the leftovers from past successes. It's amazing how many things have been dumbed down over the last 20 years. Look at the Society of Actuaries exams over the last 20 years. The knowledge gap between current local talent and current H1Bs is breathtaking.With that i can agree, the American culture is in decline, dew to moral abandonment, and Greedy and Stingy people are plentiful now, and our freedom seems to be fleeing, but there's still no better Country on earth worth fighting for to take it back, i find it upsetting that because the culture is declining you and you boys would rather jump ship and run to another Country. if you think any other country don't come with it on set of social and economic problems i think you are badly mistaken.

[tailfins]

With that i can agree, the American culture is in decline, dew to moral abandonment, and Greedy and Stingy people are plentiful now, and our freedom seems to be fleeing, but there's still no better Country on earth worth fighting for to take it back, i find it upsetting that because the culture is declining you and you boys would rather jump ship and run to another Country. if you think any other country don't come with it on set of social and economic problems i think you are badly mistaken.

All I know is when I try for successes with my "compatriots" it's been a miserable failure SINCE KINDERGARTEN and embedding in foriegn-born population for the most part is successful. At a certain point you throw up your hands and say "Why bother?". I have a good family and a good career. Almost none of my "cheese" is of US origin. Why should this rat keep going down that corridor on the maze? My time here at DP was another trip down that corridor and look how it's ending up.

[revelarts]

I'm not talking about making money, I'm talking about Capitalism; The system that has given us virtually every benefit that we have as a society. ...

You mean love, compassion, self sacrifice, charity, family, honesty, hard work, forgiveness, self control, loyalty, hope.

or are you talking about material and monetary benefits.
I think the latter.

Having clean water and 2 new cars is great no doubt but capitalism is a means to end. Not the root or the end.



The system that does a better job of raising people out of poverty than any other system. I beg to differ it has no moral root; competition is its own morality if the foundations of free markets are truly honored and kept with government providing its necessary role.
Competition is not a moral virtue. It can be done morally or immorally, but it's a system not value.

[logroller]

We're living off the leftovers from past successes. It's amazing how many things have been dumbed down over the last 20 years. Look at the Society of Actuaries exams over the last 20 years. The knowledge gap between current local talent and current H1Bs is breathtaking.
And other countries aren't living off our success? Gimme a break. The true root of development is learning from failure, so as to not to duplicate it. Admittedly, other countries have much opportunity to advance in this regard.

If anything is getting dumbed down, its because we've become complacent by towing the line of corporate interests that, masked by the almighty power of profit, allow corruption and human rights violations abroad to remain ignorant of unrealized external costs. Actuary...you mean risk? Alright, you tell me, does the actuarial exam consider the triple bottom line?
And :laugh:Whatever H1B is-- sounds like something an American company made an inoculation for that still plagues most other countries you claim to be up and coming.

[Drummond]

I can concede this much: all the sheer commonsense I've been pleased to offer Tailfins during my time here, comes from Britain ... :laugh::laugh:

... what's more, I haven't charged him a penny ....

Care for some more ? This appeared in today's Daily Express, from one of its more excellent columnists ...

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/423147/Britain-must-not-get-dragged-into-Egypt-s-bloodbath


Syria is now gripped by civil war. Violence is escalating in Lebanon. The civilian death toll in Iraq continues to rise. A peace deal between Israel and Palestine looks more distant than ever. And Egypt's brief experiment in a form of democracy has ended in bloodshed on the streets of Cairo.

In Blair's disastrous spell as special envoy he embodies all the sentimentality and wishful thinking of our political class towards the Middle East. Monumentally deluded, our politicians have helped to deepen this turmoil with their misguided rhetoric and interventions, such as their invasion of Iraq in 2003 or support for the extremist rebels in Syria.


What they have refused to recognise is that the ideology of militant Islam, one of the most powerful forces in the region, is fundamentally incompatible with pluralist democracy. In every country where it flourishes the dogma of Islamism aims to create a theocratic state governed by sharia law, where individual rights and liberties are ruthlessly supressed, breeding a constant downward cycle of division, violence, oppression and despair.


In the modern world this cycle began in 1979 in Iran when the mad mullahs, led by the sinister figure of Ayatollah Khomeini, ousted the pro-Western Shah. Soon Iran had turned into one of the world's most terrifying, brutal regimes, waging war abroad and imposing Islamic autocracy at home.


And three decades later the same process was at work with the so-called Arab Spring, which our political leaders celebrated as the flowering of the democracy and the end to military-led authoritarianism in the Middle East. How hopelessly credulous that orgy of congratulation now looks as the blood-soaked strife intensifies, particularly in Egypt.


Two years ago it was at the centre of the Arab Spring. Today it is a nation in crisis, its newly installed military rulers fighting a desperate campaign against the Muslim Brotherhood, the hardline Islamic organisation. Last week, as the army embarked on a savage crackdown against the Brotherhood, more than 1,000 people were killed, many of them protesters inside makeshift camps on the streets of Cairo.


The Brotherhood came to power in the wake of the 2011 revolution when vast public demonstrations led to the downfall of the pro-American President Hosni Mubarak, who had ruled Egypt with a rod of iron for more than 30 years. All too predictably the naive optimists of the West were in raptures at this event, hailing it as the start of a new era of freedom for the Egyptian people.


But this was no Middle Eastern equivalent of the Berlin Wall's collapse. Just the opposite. For in the subsequent elections for a new president the victor by the narrowest of margins was Mohammed Morsi, one of the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood. In characteristic jihadist-style, instead of trying to create an inclusive, secular government, Morsi immediately sought to turn Egypt into an Islamic state. His instinctive intolerance was demonstrated in October 2012 when he shared a platform at a rally with a fanatical Muslim cleric who told the crowd: "Deal with the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, disperse them and rend them asunder."


Showing his bullying, supremacist contempt for democracy he grabbed ever greater powers for himself, passing a law in November 2012 which authorised him to take any measures he wanted "to protect the revolution". He showed no interest in reviving Egypt's ailing economy.


Many of those who had welcomed the fall of Mubarak were appalled at Morsi's policies. Far from pushing the country towards prosperity he was dragging Egypt into a new dark age of superstition and bigotry. In July, with much of the public in open revolt, the army forced him from office. There can be no dispute that this was effectively a military coup. But those Westerners wailing at the army's ruthlessness should remember that this move had significant popular backing. It was not a coup against democracy for Morsi was already destroying democracy.


Parading corpses in front of the cameras the Muslim Brotherhood wallows in victimhood. But they are the true oppressors. Their entire ideology is based on religious despotism, driven by vicious hostility to women, gays and non-believers.


Nothing exemplifies that better than their persecution of the Coptic Christians in Egypt, who make up 10 per cent of the country's 80 million population. Last week alone Islamist bigots destroyed, burned or looted at least 32 Christian churches in Egypt. No minority could ever feel safe in a society ruled by a totalitarian outfit such as Mohammed Morsi's.

'Sorry', Tailfins. But I just couldn't resist this ... :coffee:

Cue your buddy Jafar for some sanitising propaganda ?

[tailfins]

And other countries aren't living off our success? Gimme a break. The true root of development is learning from failure, so as to not to duplicate it. Admittedly, other countries have much opportunity to advance in this regard.

If anything is getting dumbed down, its because we've become complacent by towing the line of corporate interests that, masked by the almighty power of profit, allow corruption and human rights violations abroad to remain ignorant of unrealized external costs. Actuary...you mean risk? Alright, you tell me, does the actuarial exam consider the triple bottom line?
And :laugh:Whatever H1B is-- sounds like something an American company made an inoculation for that still plagues most other countries you claim to be up and coming.

The Actuarial exams used to require the 15 credit hour University Calculus sequence PLUS 3 credit hours of graduate level Matrix theory. Now an honors HIGH SCHOOL student could pass that section. H1B? Google is your friend!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa

[jimnyc]

My time here at DP was another trip down that corridor and look how it's ending up.

Nobody is forcing you to write what you do. You've made a few cracks about "your time" here at DP as of late. Do you know that you can go to the very top right of the board, and logout of the board, should you choose to do so? I can translate that into Russian or Portuguese if you like? The trip one has here at this site is in 100% direct relation to HOW they post and interact with others.

[logroller]

All I know is when I try for successes with my "compatriots" it's been a miserable failure SINCE KINDERGARTEN and embedding in foriegn-born population for the most part is successful. At a certain point you throw up your hands and say "Why bother?". I have a good family and a good career. Almost none of my "cheese" is of US origin. Why should this rat keep going down that corridor on the maze? My time here at DP was another trip down that corridor and look how it's ending up.
Clearly, a rat in a cage analogy evinces, not so subtly, your contrived satisfaction with limited freedom. You're a prisoner in your own mind; freed, perceptually, by placing yourself in situations with relatively limited understanding of liberty.

[Drummond]

It's Ok, Tailfins. I'm finished for now. You can now go back to rubbishing America.

It's called, I believe, 'biting the hand that feeds you'.

For my part, and for what this is worth to you (.. probably nothing ..) I think you live in what's EASILY the greatest country in the world. That you can seriously have any motivation in you to find reasons for rubbishing it is completely beyond me.

[aboutime]

Nobody is forcing you to write what you do. You've made a few cracks about "your time" here at DP as of late. Do you know that you can go to the very top right of the board, and logout of the board, should you choose to do so? I can translate that into Russian or Portuguese if you like? The trip one has here at this site is in 100% direct relation to HOW they post and interact with others.


jimnyc. I watched tailfins, and Robert in their movie last nite before I went to bed.

Jack Nicholson was suffocated at the end by his Indian friend. The movie was

"ROBERT Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest!

How fitting it is when Fiction Imitates Life?

[tailfins]

Nobody is forcing you to write what you do. You've made a few cracks about "your time" here at DP as of late. Do you know that you can go to the very top right of the board, and logout of the board, should you choose to do so? I can translate that into Russian or Portuguese if you like? The trip one has here at this site is in 100% direct relation to HOW they post and interact with others.

That's called giving up. If I were to do that, Gabby (the last person you'd expect me to site) would be the right role model. If nothing else, I admire how she just magically disappeared with the option of coming back if and when somebody interestig shows up. Perhaps signing into Steam and playing games is a better choice to do something mindless.

I will say this: This experience has confirmed I have been on the right path for the last 25 years or so. I just slightly lifted the lid I closed decades ago and the stench is overpowering. I'm a slow learner, so it's a good idea to lift that lid every so often.

[logroller]

The Actuarial exams used to require the 15 credit hour University Calculus sequence PLUS 3 credit hours of graduate level Matrix theory. Now an honors HIGH SCHOOL student could pass that section. H1B? Google is your friend!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa
Suffice to say, I could probably pass an actuarial exam from twenty years ago with google available. So why should i take these semesters of class? i have taken those classes mind you, among Others. But what I'm saying is that I understand the concept of actuarial science-- managing risk: probability of failure/success.

I needn't memorize the nomenclature to understand the general principles that, whether you realize it or not, have everything to do with why a company like apple computer designs their products in America and manufactures them in china. Here's a hint, its not because chinamen are smarter but rather because his land that his family had farmed for generations was flooded or otherwise taken and he had no choice. Any and all risk was already absorbed by the state. Imagine the liability that would be incurred if someone wished to flood the SF bay delta: building a dam where the Golden Gate Bridge is and form a series of locks that ascended up the Sacramento River? Its a calculation that is rendered moot when alternatives elsewhere are readily available. Bear in mind, we did those sorts of things eighty years ago. So they're not building a better surfboard, they're riding on one designed in America, with foam from China, sculpted in Tahiti and ridden in Australia-- you seem to believe those countries' cultures are responsible for where the surf's up.

Where'd google come from anyways? Brazil? Vietnam? Oh, that's right, America...and rather recently I might add.

[fj1200]

We're living off the leftovers from past successes. It's amazing how many things have been dumbed down over the last 20 years. Look at the Society of Actuaries exams over the last 20 years. The knowledge gap between current local talent and current H1Bs is breathtaking.

Well that's true, we've let our competitiveness fall abysmally in comparison to the rest of the world.


With that i can agree, the American culture is in decline, dew to moral abandonment, and Greedy and Stingy people are plentiful now, and our freedom seems to be fleeing, but there's still no better Country on earth worth fighting for to take it back, i find it upsetting that because the culture is declining you and you boys would rather jump ship and run to another Country. if you think any other country don't come with it on set of social and economic problems i think you are badly mistaken.

But not for that reason. Personally I think it's because we've let our standards in the written word fall so far. :poke:

[fj1200]

I can concede this much: all the sheer commonsense I've been pleased to offer Tailfins during my time here, comes from Britain ... :laugh::laugh:

... what's more, I haven't charged him a penny ....

Care for some more ? This appeared in today's Daily Express, from one of its more excellent columnists ...

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/columnists/leo-mckinstry/423147/Britain-must-not-get-dragged-into-Egypt-s-bloodbath



'Sorry', Tailfins. But I just couldn't resist this ... :coffee:

Cue your buddy Jafar for some sanitising propaganda ?

Overpriced by far if you can't manage to post in a thread without going down the "Muzzy" road.

[fj1200]

You mean love, compassion, self sacrifice, charity, family, honesty, hard work, forgiveness, self control, loyalty, hope.

or are you talking about material and monetary benefits.
I think the latter.

Having clean water and 2 new cars is great no doubt but capitalism is a means to end. Not the root or the end.

No, those aren't virtues that derive from Capitalism, they are innate to humanity. I'm talking about growth, opportunity, etc. But I wouldn't call liberty or Capitalism as means or ends, they are necessary for society to prosper, but I admit it would probably just be a semantic argument.


Competition is not a moral virtue. It can be done morally or immorally, but it's a system not value.

Competition, with its principles such as transparency, assists in exposing immoral dealings.

[Drummond]

Overpriced by far if you can't manage to post in a thread without going down the "Muzzy" road.

Oh, I see .. I was required to avoid the subject ?

Maybe the thread wasn't, this time around, aimed at what you call the 'Muzzy' subject. But since Tailfins holds one Muslim (demonstrably so) in such high esteem, I saw no reason not to consider the other side of the coin, particularly as the established theme was to find curious ways to express dissatisfaction at what America offers !!

[tailfins]

Oh, I see .. I was required to avoid the subject ?

Maybe the thread wasn't, this time around, aimed at what you call the 'Muzzy' subject. But since Tailfins holds one Muslim (demonstrably so) in such high esteem, I saw no reason not to consider the other side of the coin, particularly as the established theme was to find curious ways to express dissatisfaction at what America offers !!

I have never been to the UK. Maybe there's a bunch of Gordon Ramsay types that don't make lots of social demands if you're willing to excel at the topic of interest. I would certainly give the UK a try if it were a good deal.

At the end of day it's essential to have a trustworthy government to secure a nation's security and trust that government's judgement. That's where I stand on the issue of terrorism, Islamic or otherwise. I don't claim to be a military intelligence expert. If we have a security issue, I lay the blame with Barack Obama. Or in your case with David Cameron.

[Drummond]

I have never been to the UK. Maybe there's a bunch of Gordon Ramsay types that don't make lots of social demands if you're willing to excel at the topic of interest. I would certainly give the UK a try if it were a good deal.

At the end of day it's essential to have a trustworthy government to secure a nation's security and trust that government's judgement. That's where I stand on the issue of terrorism, Islamic or otherwise. I don't claim to be a military intelligence expert. If we have a security issue, I lay the blame with Barack Obama. Or in your case with David Cameron.

I see reason for agreeing with the last part of your post (as bolded).

But let me assure you of this: there is much in America, today, that we in the UK have lost. Control of our lives may not be COMPLETELY out of our hands - yet !! - but it's getting that way. The largest State-run DNA database held in the world is to be found in the UK. We may also have the greatest density of surveillance cameras to be found anywhere. Under Labour, we all but completely lost control of our borders to near-unrestrained immigration. We have some of the strictest gun ownership laws on the planet ... Obama is STRIVING to create what ALREADY EXISTS HERE. Here, there is NO presumed right to 'bear arms'.

Freedom to speak as you wish ?? Current laws give Muslims, if they overhear comments expressed publicly which can give rise to 'incitement', grounds to call in the police to take action against the 'perpetrator'.

I could go on. Here's the point - your thread, apparently existing as your vehicle for rubbishing America, is here to allow you to take a position which shows that you have precious little regard for the GOOD things in your life, things you can take for granted, that I would give my right arm to HAVE !!

That you don't appreciate what your country gives you, what it holds dear to itself as precious values, that you instead CHOOSE TO BITE THE HAND THAT HAS FED AND NURTURED YOUR EVERY MEANS OF LIVING AS A FREE AND DECENT HUMAN BEING ... I find reprehensible in the extreme. Count your blessings, that's what I say.

Try the repressions of the Middle East, if you are dissatisfied with what America gives you. Maybe Jafar can give you a tour of his favourite rocket launching sites, or maybe you'd like the experience of Hamas using you as a human shield ?

Tailfins, it's all too easy to point to other societies where what you SHOULD value, as an American, aren't tolerated. Here's the point ... value what you have, be appreciative of all those before you who have built your privileged lifestyle for you, and - I suggest - in valuing your compatriots and all they've done, show them APPRECIATION AND LOYALTY.

.. Because your country DESERVES to have that from you.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Nobody is forcing you to write what you do. You've made a few cracks about "your time" here at DP as of late. Do you know that you can go to the very top right of the board, and logout of the board, should you choose to do so? I can translate that into Russian or Portuguese if you like? 1.The trip one has here at this site is in 100% direct relation to HOW they post and interact with others. So very true. When I first came here my initial reaction was to try to get to know the members , give my opinions and not make waves. That lasted a couple days and I saw that my opinions didn't set well with a few but one in particular detested my conservatism and my embracing the truth ahead of all else. Try as I did to avoid a conflict because of my being so new here it pounced on me anyways. After a few days I made up my mind to just leave. I did for one day and thought about it. During that thinking I realized that was exactly what my opponent was after. So I returned to stay. I'm here , my opponent is not! In my opinion that is because I made up my mind to be nice to all except the person attacking me and to only point out the truth. That truth triumphed not I. HOW DO I KNOW THIS? I'LL TELL YA HOW. When I returned to fight it out I knew it all hinged on whether Jim was an honorable man!! I returned betting that Jim was. He was , I stayed while my opponent did not. Truth won out because Jim chose to side with TRUTH and to reject the lies the other guy was spewing. With that as my knowledge and experience I can say that in my opinion Robert Whit is wrong. I never ever uttered a word against Whit and liked the guy. Still do but wrong is wrong. No ass kissing here , just the truth as I see it. --------------I hated to see it come to this but life isn't always a bed of roses . Tailfins see that big number one and the words immediately following it ? Think about it and perhaps you'll realize it's dead on accurate. --Tyr

[tailfins]

Tailfins, it's all too easy to point to other societies where what you SHOULD value, as an American, aren't tolerated. Here's the point ... value what you have, be appreciative of all those before you who have built your privileged lifestyle for you, and - I suggest - in valuing your compatriots and all they've done, show them APPRECIATION AND LOYALTY.

.. Because your country DESERVES to have that from you.

How do you show appreciation or loyalty when seemingly every time you stick your nose even a little bit outside the immigrant community and it gets smacked? If I didn't keep on trying, I wouldn't be here. THIS IS MY ATTEMPT. I see unfortunate people very similar to me but who didn't take my strange path to a functioning life, they wind up absolutely alone and on SSDI disability seeing themselves as 100% worthless and useless. Why does society let this happen? None of these people deserve what they got. Being unable to properly express frustration and being unable to get their life off the ground doesn't deserve this kind of shunning from society. There but for the grace of God, go I!

[tailfins]

So very true. When I first came here my initial reaction was to try to get to know the members , give my opinions and not make waves. That lasted a couple days and I saw that my opinions didn't set well with a few but one in particular detested my conservatism and my embracing the truth ahead of all else. Try as I did to avoid a conflict because of my being so new here it pounced on me anyways. After a few days I made up my mind to just leave. I did for one day and thought about it. During that thinking I realized that was exactly what my opponent was after. So I returned to stay. I'm here , my opponent is not! In my opinion that is because I made up my mind to be nice to all except the person attacking me and to only point out the truth. That truth triumphed not I. HOW DO I KNOW THIS? I'LL TELL YA HOW. When I returned to fight it out I knew it all hinged on whether Jim was an honorable man!! I returned betting that Jim was. He was , I stayed while my opponent did not. Truth won out because Jim chose to side with TRUTH and to reject the lies the other guy was spewing. With that as my knowledge and experience I can say that in my opinion Robert Whit is wrong. I never ever uttered a word against Whit and liked the guy. Still do but wrong is wrong. No ass kissing here , just the truth as I see it. --------------I hated to see it come to this but life isn't always a bed of roses . Tailfins see that big number one and the words immediately following it ? Think about it and perhaps you'll realize it's dead on accurate. --Tyr

I'm not here to fight; I'm here to learn. However, if one can learn by fighting, that'll work. Any difference we have had was an attempt for me to kid around. Again, an attempt to learn how to do something.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by tailfins http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=658983#post658983)
My time here at DP was another trip down that corridor and look how it's ending up.



Nobody is forcing you to write what you do. You've made a few cracks about "your time" here at DP as of late. Do you know that you can go to the very top right of the board, and logout of the board, should you choose to do so? I can translate that into Russian or Portuguese if you like? The trip one has here at this site is in 100% direct relation to HOW they post and interact with others.

Also, contrary to the postings of the recently departed (even though said departed is daily logging in to look around) I have yet to see anyone's freedom of speech be imperiled or curtailed.

The end result... if ya don't like the way it's run, don't post. It isn't rocket science.

[fj1200]

Oh, I see .. I was required to avoid the subject ?

Maybe the thread wasn't, this time around, aimed at what you call the 'Muzzy' subject. But since Tailfins holds one Muslim (demonstrably so) in such high esteem, I saw no reason not to consider the other side of the coin, particularly as the established theme was to find curious ways to express dissatisfaction at what America offers !!

Thank you for acknowledging your error but I can understand that every thread at some point needs to come down to the "evil Muslims" or BO's impeachment. No sense in breaking the trend eh?

[logroller]

How do you show appreciation or loyalty when seemingly every time you stick your nose even a little bit outside the immigrant community and it gets smacked? If I didn't keep on trying, I wouldn't be here. THIS IS MY ATTEMPT. I see unfortunate people very similar to me but who didn't take my strange path to a functioning life, they wind up absolutely alone and on SSDI disability seeing themselves as 100% worthless and useless. Why does society let this happen? None of these people deserve what they got. Being unable to properly express frustration and being unable to get their life off the ground doesn't deserve this kind of shunning from society. There but for the grace of God, go I!
Youre lookin at this from a POV that places the onus of determining self-worth upon society, rather than the individual. The question would just as aptly be, why do those individuals allow society to determine their worth?-- do you see the difference in perception?

The truth of the matter is humans tend to see others as they see themselves, or wish to be seen anyways-- its a security thing: a search for likeness-- as I said, its about perception. One wishes to perceive thyself, and be perceived by others, as being secure-- arguably more than they value actually being secure. This is why people have long suffered from governments that usurped individual liberty and its unknown outcome in favor of the security offered by repression.

In a perverse twist of logic, people have been satisfied trading freedom for a sense of security that predictability offers. Like the concept of teaching to the mean, it only serves to lower the intensity of being at either extreme. If you're low, its not so bad; if you're high, its not so great. Just average. Apathy soon results from a situation where, regardless of personal performance, an individual is just a cog in the wheel-- because if we're all just cogs, everybody is of equal worth...conversely, we're equally worthless. Just depends on how you perceive it. But history shows that cultures which respond to personal self-worth are far more productive and durable societies.

That's why society allows what you described. But that doesn't answer my question, why does the individual allow it?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Thank you for acknowledging your error but I can understand that every thread at some point needs to come down to the "evil Muslims" or BO's impeachment. No sense in breaking the trend eh? What? Are you desperately missing Gabby so soon? JEFF, JIM, MARCUS, MYSELF, DRUMMONDS, ABOUTIME, LARRYMC AND OTHERS ARE THE AUTHORS OF THOSE THREADS. Must be a big conspiracy huh? I bet if you sent formal complaint to admin here it would be read promptly and serious action taken quickly on it. Something like, lets can all those threads and see just how damn barren and dull we can make this placed. You see the little bamboy and Islam's huge threat are big items. As such they will be discussed and recent news keeps putting then in the crosshairs. Its a damn big world and they both are ffing it up often. Try to get a grip on the reality of that will ya?-Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Youre lookin at this from a POV that places the onus of determining self-worth upon society, rather than the individual. The question would just as aptly be, why do those individuals allow society to determine their worth?-- do you see the difference in perception?

The truth of the matter is humans tend to see others as they see themselves, or wish to be seen anyways-- its a security thing: a search for likeness-- as I said, its about perception. One wishes to perceive thyself, and be perceived by others, as being secure-- arguably more than they value actually being secure. This is why people have long suffered from governments that usurped individual liberty and its unknown outcome in favor of the security offered by repression.

In a perverse twist of logic, people have been satisfied trading freedom for a sense of security that predictability offers. Like the concept of teaching to the mean, it only serves to lower the intensity of being at either extreme. If you're low, its not so bad; if you're high, its not so great. Just average. Apathy soon results from a situation where, regardless of personal performance, an individual is just a cog in the wheel-- because if we're all just cogs, everybody is of equal worth...conversely, we're equally worthless. Just depends on how you perceive it. But history shows that cultures which respond to personal self-worth are far more productive and durable societies.

That's why society allows what you described. But that doesn't answer my question, why does the individual allow it? I AGREE . -------------------- TO TAILFINS -- In our society we get to chose how well we will fit in with it or rebel. Others are not so fortunate. I get to chose to join in , stand apart, rebel or laugh /cry at it. Sometimes do them all on the same day. This forum is similar but a little more restrictive . If one is walking across the pasture at night , trips and falls face first into a pile of cow shit. Its best not to taste it just to make sure! Trust that if its big , and nasty its probably bullshit. Sometimes accepting things on faith and likelihood matters. ;)-TYR

[fj1200]

What? Are you desperately missing Gabby so soon? JEFF, JIM, MARCUS, MYSELF, DRUMMONDS, ABOUTIME, LARRYMC AND OTHERS ARE THE AUTHORS OF THOSE THREADS. Must be a big conspiracy huh? I bet if you sent formal complaint to admin here it would be read promptly and serious action taken quickly on it. Something like, lets can all those threads and see just how damn barren and dull we can make this placed. You see the little bamboy and Islam's huge threat are big items. As such they will be discussed and recent news keeps putting then in the crosshairs. Its a damn big world and they both are ffing it up often. Try to get a grip on the reality of that will ya?-Tyr

Hey I have no problem with threads about BO and Muslims boiling down to BO and Muslims but when they divert to BO and Muslims to avoid a losing argument... well, that's pretty weak. Just a thought that there could be some interesting threads around here that actually discuss some issues rather than the last line being, "oh yeah, well BO is a treasonous ffkk b*g..."

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Hey I have no problem with threads about BO and Muslims boiling down to BO and Muslims but when they divert to BO and Muslims to avoid a losing argument... well, that's pretty weak. Just a thought that there could be some interesting threads around here that actually discuss some issues rather than the last line being, "oh yeah, well BO is a treasonous ffkk b*g..." My friend , you protest too much about reading the truth. If its true why get upset about it and if you are not upset about it why complain. You act as if links and other sources proving such things are never given. You rejecting those linked sources and info on it all does not mean it was never given! Now if its bullshat and lies why cry about it? Such will never stand up with the intelligent people we have contributing here, right? Careful that was loaded for a reason!-Tyr

[fj1200]

My friend , you protest too much about reading the truth. If its true why get upset about it and if you are not upset about it why complain. You act as if links and other sources proving such things are never given. You rejecting those linked sources and info on it all does not mean it was never given! Now if its bullshat and lies why cry about it? Such will never stand up with the intelligent people we have contributing here, right? Careful that was loaded for a reason!-Tyr

You might want to reread my post. I don't object to truth although some manage to stretch the definition of said. It's weak when a thread is, for all intents and purposes, ended by a proclamation that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

EDIT:

No love? I put in "treasonous ffkk b*g" just for you. :poke:

[Drummond]

How do you show appreciation or loyalty when seemingly every time you stick your nose even a little bit outside the immigrant community and it gets smacked? If I didn't keep on trying, I wouldn't be here. THIS IS MY ATTEMPT. I see unfortunate people very similar to me but who didn't take my strange path to a functioning life, they wind up absolutely alone and on SSDI disability seeing themselves as 100% worthless and useless. Why does society let this happen? None of these people deserve what they got. Being unable to properly express frustration and being unable to get their life off the ground doesn't deserve this kind of shunning from society. There but for the grace of God, go I!

How come what you describe happens, not 'just' in your society, but in many others .. my own included ?

America is still a great country, still doing better than most are (.. and that's even despite Obama's vandalism !). I still say that you should count your blessings.

There are WAY worse places to live. Try your luck in North Korea. Or Venezuela. Or Cuba. Or almost any Middle Eastern country, if you're NOT a Muslim (.. and in some, these days, even THAT doesn't help !!). Trust me, you'd soon want to go running back to where you came from.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I see reason for agreeing with the last part of your post (as bolded).

But let me assure you of this: there is much in America, today, that we in the UK have lost. Control of our lives may not be COMPLETELY out of our hands - yet !! - but it's getting that way. The largest State-run DNA database held in the world is to be found in the UK. We may also have the greatest density of surveillance cameras to be found anywhere. Under Labour, we all but completely lost control of our borders to near-unrestrained immigration. We have some of the strictest gun ownership laws on the planet ... Obama is STRIVING to create what ALREADY EXISTS HERE. Here, there is NO presumed right to 'bear arms'.

Freedom to speak as you wish ?? Current laws give Muslims, if they overhear comments expressed publicly which can give rise to 'incitement', grounds to call in the police to take action against the 'perpetrator'.

I could go on. Here's the point - your thread, apparently existing as your vehicle for rubbishing America, is here to allow you to take a position which shows that you have precious little regard for the GOOD things in your life, things you can take for granted, that I would give my right arm to HAVE !!

That you don't appreciate what your country gives you, what it holds dear to itself as precious values, that you instead CHOOSE TO BITE THE HAND THAT HAS FED AND NURTURED YOUR EVERY MEANS OF LIVING AS A FREE AND DECENT HUMAN BEING ... I find reprehensible in the extreme. Count your blessings, that's what I say.

Try the repressions of the Middle East, if you are dissatisfied with what America gives you. Maybe Jafar can give you a tour of his favourite rocket launching sites, or maybe you'd like the experience of Hamas using you as a human shield ?

Tailfins, it's all too easy to point to other societies where what you SHOULD value, as an American, aren't tolerated. Here's the point ... value what you have, be appreciative of all those before you who have built your privileged lifestyle for you, and - I suggest - in valuing your compatriots and all they've done, show them APPRECIATION AND LOYALTY.

.. Because your country DESERVES to have that from you. Sorry, previously did not reply to this excellent post. You big D appreciate what we have because you see what Britain has already lost. Yet our citizens are kept in the dark about Islam's great threat here. That is a deliberate agenda. Most of those in very high places in our government have been bought out by CAIR, FOREIGN MUSLIM ENTITIES in various ways. Here is the cold , hard and brutal truth, we are now sheep being led to the slaughter! Many will find that unbelievable because of our military and our police force. I would like to remind them Britain had both those too and in less than ten years it will be controlled by an Islamic government. France took harsher necessary steps than Britain has! Who would have ever though that I ask? If France goes farther against it they just may survive a few more decades, maybe even 50 years if they go military on them and start a deportation program to send all of them back. Not likely. And that's the problem the only solution is to be brutal and force them away . We as freedom loving people will be stabbed repeatedly by our own goodness. So much so that it my be the cause of our demise! For our enemy has no goodness, no mercy and no quit. They will all happily die to advance Islam as the only religion allowed on earth. And don't dare even foolishly think that it will not be the same totally intolerant Islam that we have now endured for over 1400+ years..