State Department Blasts Enemies of Islam

[Jeff]

You really have to wonder who's side this administration is on , and check out the chart at the bottom of the article religion of peace ? It doesn't look so peaceful



Following car bombings in Baghdad, which appear to have targeted Shi-ite Muslim festivities that marked the end of Ramadan, State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki issued a press release in which she denounced the “enemies of Islam.” “The United States condemns in the strongest possible terms the cowardly attacks today in Baghdad. These attacks were aimed at families celebrating the Eid al-Fitr holiday that marks the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. The terrorists who committed these acts are enemies of Islam and a shared enemy of the United States, Iraq, and the international community.”


Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/08/state-department-blasts-enemies-of-islam/#qh7tUvfSgU4ReOgi.99

[Gaffer]

You really have to wonder who's side this administration is on , and check out the chart at the bottom of the article religion of peace ? It doesn't look so peaceful



Following car bombings in Baghdad, which appear to have targeted Shi-ite Muslim festivities that marked the end of Ramadan, State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki issued a press release in which she denounced the “enemies of Islam.” “The United States condemns in the strongest possible terms the cowardly attacks today in Baghdad. These attacks were aimed at families celebrating the Eid al-Fitr holiday that marks the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. The terrorists who committed these acts are enemies of Islam and a shared enemy of the United States, Iraq, and the international community.”


Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/08/state-department-blasts-enemies-of-islam/#qh7tUvfSgU4ReOgi.99



The terrorists that did it were islamic, just like their victims. One sunni the other shite. The state dept spokes woman is stupid. That pretty much splains it all.

[jafar00]

The terrorists that did it were islamic, just like their victims. One sunni the other shite. The state dept spokes woman is stupid. That pretty much splains it all.

You need to separate terrorism from Islam. There is nothing in Islam to support terrorism and everything to condemn it.

[red states rule]

You need to separate terrorism from Islam. There is nothing in Islam to support terrorism and everything to condemn it.

If this is not terrorism I would hate to see what you would call terrorism- asshole






<TBODY>
Picture of the Week




http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/acid-attack-zanzibar.jpg
Religion of Peace: Before and After
A writer with a conscience put (http://www.aina.org/news/20130811144053.htm) it best: "Western countries have donated
hundreds of billions of dollars in foreign aid to Muslim countries,
and we Muslims pay back the West by dousing their children, who
came to help our poor and disfranchised, with acid. It is truly sickening."


Ramadan Bombathon
2013 Scorecard <O:p>
Because, if you think all religions are the same,
then you haven't been paying attention</O:p>
<TBODY>


2013



In the name of
The Religion
of Peace <O:p></O:p>



In the name of
ANY Other
Religion <O:p></O:p>



By
'Islamo-
Phobes'



Terror Attacks



310



0<O:p></O:p>



1*



Suicide Bombings



28





Dead Bodies



1651





Wounded



3048



0<O:p></O:p>



0<O:p></O:p>


</TBODY>


* A Ukrainian has been charged with placing a bomb near a mosque
in England during Ramadan. No injuries or deaths resulted.
We list it as an attack even though we don't include attacks
by Islamic terrorists unless they result in actual casualties.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/coexist.jpg (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/images/Coexistx800.jpg)








Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace "Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are harsh
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29


<TBODY>
2013.08.12 (Balad, Iraq) - Sixteen people at a crowded cafe are torn to shreds apart by a Holy Warrior with a suicide vest.



2013.08.12 (Muqdadiyah, Iraq) - Children are among the casualties of a Religion of Peace bomb blast at a playground and soccer field.



2013.08.11 (Ngom, Nigeria) - At least a dozen villagers are massacred by Boko Haram Islamists.



2013.08.11 (Uruzgan, Afghanistan) - Three women and a child are among five civilians exterminated by Taliban bombers.



2013.08.11 (Karachi, Pakistan) - A 12-year-old girl is among three Shiites shot to death on the basis of their sectarian status.



2013.08.10 (Madaen, Iraq) - Fundamentalists detonate a bomb at a video arcade, killing an 8-year-old boy.


</TBODY>



</TBODY>

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

[Noir]

You need to separate terrorism from Islam. There is nothing in Islam to support terrorism and everything to condemn it.

There is plenty in just about every religious text ever written that can be interpreted directly or indirectly as support for terrorism and other activities.

[red states rule]

There is plenty in just about every religious text ever written that can be interpreted directly or indirectly as support for terrorism and other activities.

Yea Noir, I lost count the umber of times Christians rioted over a anti God joke, the burning of the Bible, or "artwork" depicting a Crucifix in a jar of urine

Or the number of times the Pope called for the murder of someone over what he/she said about the Catholic faith

[Noir]

Yea Noir, I lost count the umber of times Christians rioted over a anti God joke, the burning of the Bible, or "artwork" depicting a Crucifix in a jar of urine

Or the number of times the Pope called for the murder of someone over what he/she said about the Catholic faith

Yeah you're right, Christians have never murdered anyone for any reason relating to their religion ever.

[red states rule]

Yeah you're right, Christians have never murdered anyone for any reason relating to their religion ever.


I understand you hate people of faith and you have this grudge against Christians

But you are going to compare modern day Christians with the terrorist bastards who are killing people in your own country in the name of Allah - well as you Brits would say - you are daft

[Noir]

I understand you hate people of faith and you have this grudge against Christians

But you are going to compare modern day Christians with the terrorist bastards who are killing people in your own country in the name of Allah - well as you Brits would say - you are daft

I'm not comparing them. Jafar said their is no support for terrorism, i corrected him on that, and the fact that its not just islam but almost all religious texts throughout history. You have then taken that and tried ti turn it into a slur against modern day Christians, for whatever reason.

Most Christians ignore/discard most of the texts in the bible that cause hate/violence, that doesn't mean its not there, its just not acceptable in our culture. Though their are nations (particularly the african ones) that are well behind on this.

[Jeff]

I'm not comparing them. Jafar said their is no support for terrorism, i corrected him on that, and the fact that its not just islam but almost all religious texts throughout history. You have then taken that and tried ti turn it into a slur against modern day Christians, for whatever reason.

Most Christians ignore/discard most of the texts in the bible that cause hate/violence, that doesn't mean its not there, its just not acceptable in our culture. Though their are nations (particularly the african ones) that are well behind on this.

I believe what Noir is saying is that in the Old testament there where acts of violence, I have heard Noir refer to them before and I wont go on with my opinion of that subject, but yes to some in the Bible there are area's that do suggest violence

[jafar00]

There is plenty in just about every religious text ever written that can be interpreted directly or indirectly as support for terrorism and other activities.

Every bit of the Qur'aan has a wealth of scholarly study to draw from. Nothing there could be misinterpreted as supporting terrorism. Reading it blindly (as an English interpretation) you could, but presenting it to further a murderous agenda is just pure fail because you cannot change what it actually means no matter how much you twist it.

[Jeff]

Every bit of the Qur'aan has a wealth of scholarly study to draw from. Nothing there could be misinterpreted as supporting terrorism. Reading it blindly (as an English interpretation) you could, but presenting it to further a murderous agenda is just pure fail because you cannot change what it actually means no matter how much you twist it.

jafar I ( as you know ) have never read the QUR'aan but I have to wonder I posted a chart last night with all the murders , beatings, be headings and so on and the Muslims where the only one to make the list and they where talking about the crimes done in the name of Allah. Every day I open my E mail or turn the news on and there it is another killing in the Muslim faith where someone killed in the name of Allah, I have posted many of articles explaining how the religion of peace will be just that once the rid the world of all the others but yet you still say the Koran is filled with peace, so all the others in the world lie ? I mean it might be time for a reality check, I believe you do believe this Koran is all about peace so why is there a murder daily over this religion of peace ?

[Drummond]

Every bit of the Qur'aan has a wealth of scholarly study to draw from. Nothing there could be misinterpreted as supporting terrorism. Reading it blindly (as an English interpretation) you could, but presenting it to further a murderous agenda is just pure fail because you cannot change what it actually means no matter how much you twist it.

This is a good one !!!

So, 'nothing there could be misinterpreted as supporting terrorism'. Well .. 'misinterpreted' .. fair enough. But, and despite how outrageously you advance the idea you intend, IT REMAINS A FACT THAT VARIOUS ISLAMIC GROUPINGS INTERPRET ISLAM AS BEING THEIR BASIS FOR THE ATROCITIES THEY COMMIT, and do so on a daily basis !!

If you're right .. HOW COME ? How is it that so many 'make their mistakes' with Islam ?? How CAN they ? EH ?? HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN IT ??

Sorry, Jafar, but there's a whole WORLD out there, proving you wrong !!

As for 'Reading it blindly (as an English interpretation) you could ..' .. er'm, yeahh, sure !! Meaning, no doubt, that one cannot have any faith in English translations, so any and every such translation can 'conveniently' be dismissed ?

Very convenient indeed, Jafar.

Well, the British Army run a highly politically incorrect (.. this can't be stressed enough !), rather irreverent, Website of their own. Part of it is their own answer to Wikipedia, and very entertaining much of it is, too. Jafar, you might like to know that their site records that typically pro-Muslim cop-out tactic, as one frequently brought to bear as Muslims choose to try it.

See ...

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Koran


The mainstream view is also that the Koran should only be read in the original classical Arabic, and that translations into modern languages are merely "interpretations" with no validity. This has the unfortunate consequence that many Muslims have never actually read the Koran, since they are not provided it in a language they can understand, much like the Latin Bible in medieval Catholicism. Oh, and according to a related view, only Muslims can understand it anyway, so there's no point in you reading it, infidel.

Now, isn't it AMAZING, Jafar, that you've copied that tactic, here, on this thread ??

I suggest that what we have here, folks and Jafar, is a Muslim arguing tactically, according to a well-established methodology designed to use every conceivable trick to disadvantage and ultimately silence its non-Muslim opposition. This is Muslim propagandising, pure and simple.

Going back to the British Army website, and the page I've quoted from .. here's some more .... ENJOY ..


A 7th Century book of Monotheistic Arabic Mysticism which Muslims believe was dictated to Mohammed by the Angel Gabriel. It borrows heavily from Christian and Jewish traditions but without the "Love thy Neighbour" and "Turn the other cheek" bits.

Rather like a bad Quentin Tarantino film, the Koran is arranged in no meaningful order. It contains 114 Suras, the first of which is, logically enough, called "The Opening". The other 113 are ranged not in any meaningful chronological order, in which they have to be interpreted, but in decreasing order of length.

But why is the order so important? Well, Mohammed, I mean God, liked to change his mind. These changes of mind, properly called " abrogations", conveniently happened whenever Mohammed was having problems with things he, I mean God, had previously decreed. For instance, Mohammed, I mean God, decreed that believers could have four wives. But our Mo wanted a few more, so there is a sudden revelation that Mohammed can have more, indeed as many as he liked. But of course this revelation explicitly only provides Mohammed with the exception, and not the rest of the believers.

Alcohol is another case in point - 16:67 accepts it, then 4:43 prohibits turning up to worship drunk, and finally 5:90 prohibits it. Perhaps the most relevant abrogation today relates to attitudes towards nonbelievers (including the "people of the book") - the so-called Verse of the Sword, 9:5, aggregates and therefore cancels out no fewer than 124 more peaceful and tolerant verses, including the famous "there is no compulsion in religion" (which appears chronologically earlier). The vast majority of Islamic scholars agree that Sura 9 was chronologically the last to be "revealed", and - shock horror - an awful lot of the really nasty stuff appears in this sura and cancels out anything it contradicts!

Unlike in the Bible, there are no miracles in the Koran. The "proofs" and "signs" are the recycled Bible stories, and the words of the Koran themselves. These mere words are deemed to be proof enough, and questioning their divine providence is a dangerous thing to do in a country governed by Islamic law. Another contrast with the Bible is that the content of the Koran is meant to contain all the knowledge required ever, and that it is complete and perfect.

As a result, the standard of proof of a contention in Islamic scholarship is not whether the contention stands up to analysis, but whether it is supported by a Koranic quote. This includes the contention of the Koran's divine origin. The fact that this is a complete tautology is deemed totally irrelevant. This accounts largely for the lack of technical progress in countries dominated politically by Islam.

A further contrast with the New Testament of the Bible is that, instead of discussing moral questions with analogy, anecdote, and parable, God, I mean Mohammed, just plainly lays down the law. This law includes dress codes, conduct codes, prohibitions, permissions, and even standard responses for believers to say when faced with specific questions.

To what extent are we being 'played' by Jafar's offerings .. how much of it is pre-scripted stuff, designed as weaponry against 'Naughty Unbelievers' .. rather like some manic cult ?

[Noir]

Every bit of the Qur'aan has a wealth of scholarly study to draw from. Nothing there could be misinterpreted as supporting terrorism. Reading it blindly (as an English interpretation) you could, but presenting it to further a murderous agenda is just pure fail because you cannot change what it actually means no matter how much you twist it.

Why you would even try and argue this is confusing.

Saying 'nothing could be misinterpreted' about anything is foolish, but about a religious text? Madness.

[aboutime]

We, the members of DP. Should be praising, applauding, and admiring jafar for is insatiable ability to endlessly bring nearly every possible excuse to this forum. And never fully understand how his endless contributions of excuses, based on distractions, and lies he MUST always repeat...make him look, and sound so Foolish, Immature, and just plain SILLY.

[Drummond]

I understand you hate people of faith and you have this grudge against Christians

But you are going to compare modern day Christians with the terrorist bastards who are killing people in your own country in the name of Allah - well as you Brits would say - you are daft:clap::clap::clap::clap:

... We certainly would !

And this is a great point. Regardless of what could perhaps be claimed for the more violent chapters in Christian history, the fact remains that, today, Christian conduct is decent and civilised. The comparison with Muslim terrorism is all too stark. Muslims have NOT evolved ... they still behave like they're living around 14 centuries ago.

Modern civilised standards leave them untouched, and their terrorism just keeps on coming. We saw that contrast fairly recently, tragically, on the streets of Woolwich, when Drummer Lee Rigby was the victim of subhuman Muslim savagery.

The modern, civilised world reviles such savagery. And much of it does so in a peaceloving, caring, Christian spirit.

[jafar00]

jafar I ( as you know ) have never read the QUR'aan but I have to wonder I posted a chart last night with all the murders , beatings, be headings and so on and the Muslims where the only one to make the list and they where talking about the crimes done in the name of Allah. Every day I open my E mail or turn the news on and there it is another killing in the Muslim faith where someone killed in the name of Allah, I have posted many of articles explaining how the religion of peace will be just that once the rid the world of all the others but yet you still say the Koran is filled with peace, so all the others in the world lie ? I mean it might be time for a reality check, I believe you do believe this Koran is all about peace so why is there a murder daily over this religion of peace ?

There have been more killings in the name of Jesus than in the name of any other figure in history.

What about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIs1-4uj_zs

Does Christianity support beating your child to death? No. So why do you condemn Islam for those who are uneducated about Islam, or who are plain bad and have their acts attributed to Islam by media reporting on the story because they happen to be Arab?


Alcohol is another case in point - 16:67 accepts it, then 4:43 prohibits turning up to worship drunk, and finally 5:90 prohibits it. Perhaps the most relevant abrogation today relates to attitudes towards nonbelievers (including the "people of the book") - the so-called Verse of the Sword, 9:5, aggregates and therefore cancels out no fewer than 124 more peaceful and tolerant verses, including the famous "there is no compulsion in religion" (which appears chronologically earlier). The vast majority of Islamic scholars agree that Sura 9 was chronologically the last to be "revealed", and - shock horror - an awful lot of the really nasty stuff appears in this sura and cancels out anything it contradicts!

16:67
From Tafsir Al Tustari
And of the fruits of date-palms and vines from which you draw wine and goodly provision.He [Abū Bakr al-Sijzī] said, ‘This verse was abrogated by the verse on wine (khamr). Ibrāhīm and Shuʿabī also said this.’ Sahl said:As far as I am concerned, wine (sakar) is anything which intoxicates the lower self (nafs) in this world, and for which it [the nafs] does not believe it will be punished in the Hereafter.Abū Ḥamza al-Ṣūfī visited Sahl and he asked him: ‘Where have you been, Abū Ḥamza?’ He replied, ‘We were with such and such a person who informed us that intoxication is of four kinds.’ He said, ‘Tell me what they are.’ [Abū Ḥamza continued], ‘The intoxication of drink, the intoxication of youth, the intoxication of wealth and the intoxication of authority.’ Sahl replied, ‘There are two kinds of intoxication which he did not inform you about.’ He asked, ‘What are they?’ and Sahl answered, ‘The intoxication of the scholar who loves this world, and the intoxication of the worshipper who loves to be noticed.’His words, Exalted is He:

4:43
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter

5:90
O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

These verses abrogated 16:67

Your army website missed 2:219 BTW :p

They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness.

9:5
The so called "verse of the sword" is for a particular time and place. Look up the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah). The verse only gives permission to kill those Arab tribes who kept fighting and killing the Muslims at the time and those who broke the treaty.

I should also point out that grammar is not a strong point among anti Islam crusaders. How can you expect such uneducated fools to comprehend the Qur'aan, let alone do any kind of study to try and understand it?

"9:5, aggregates and therefore cancels out no fewer than 124 more peaceful and tolerant verses"

I think he meant "abrogates"? :D

However 9:5 doesn't abrogate anything. It gave permission to the Muslims to defend themselves if attacked at this time.


Why you would even try and argue this is confusing.

Saying 'nothing could be misinterpreted' about anything is foolish, but about a religious text? Madness.

Misquoted and twisted sure. Misinterpreted no. Even the most lame brained of us would surely research a little before acting blindly on a translation of a religious text?

[Jeff]

There have been more killings in the name of Jesus than in the name of any other figure in history.

What about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIs1-4uj_zs

Does Christianity support beating your child to death? No. So why do you condemn Islam for those who are uneducated about Islam, or who are plain bad and have their acts attributed to Islam by media reporting on the story because they happen to be Arab?



16:67
From Tafsir Al Tustari
And of the fruits of date-palms and vines from which you draw wine and goodly provision.He [Abū Bakr al-Sijzī] said, ‘This verse was abrogated by the verse on wine (khamr). Ibrāhīm and Shuʿabī also said this.’ Sahl said:As far as I am concerned, wine (sakar) is anything which intoxicates the lower self (nafs) in this world, and for which it [the nafs] does not believe it will be punished in the Hereafter.Abū Ḥamza al-Ṣūfī visited Sahl and he asked him: ‘Where have you been, Abū Ḥamza?’ He replied, ‘We were with such and such a person who informed us that intoxication is of four kinds.’ He said, ‘Tell me what they are.’ [Abū Ḥamza continued], ‘The intoxication of drink, the intoxication of youth, the intoxication of wealth and the intoxication of authority.’ Sahl replied, ‘There are two kinds of intoxication which he did not inform you about.’ He asked, ‘What are they?’ and Sahl answered, ‘The intoxication of the scholar who loves this world, and the intoxication of the worshipper who loves to be noticed.’His words, Exalted is He:

4:43
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter

5:90
O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

These verses abrogated 16:67

Your army website missed 2:219 BTW :p

They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness.

9:5
The so called "verse of the sword" is for a particular time and place. Look up the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah). The verse only gives permission to kill those Arab tribes who kept fighting and killing the Muslims at the time and those who broke the treaty.

I should also point out that grammar is not a strong point among anti Islam crusaders. How can you expect such uneducated fools to comprehend the Qur'aan, let alone do any kind of study to try and understand it?

"9:5, aggregates and therefore cancels out no fewer than 124 more peaceful and tolerant verses"

I think he meant "abrogates"? :D

However 9:5 doesn't abrogate anything. It gave permission to the Muslims to defend themselves if attacked at this time.



Misquoted and twisted sure. Misinterpreted no. Even the most lame brained of us would surely research a little before acting blindly on a translation of a religious text?



The verse from the bible you refer to goes Spare the rod spoil the child and it doesn't say to beat the child to death what it refers to is a spanking or even a belt on the bottom wont huet the child and it will certainly help not spoil the child . Yes jafar over the years there have been some whacko's that kill there children because they say they heard voices or God told them to but here is the difference and this is a question I have asked you before ya don't see this on TV or in the news very often at all but every night ( or so it seems , heck it is even on FBeveryday ) someone in the Muslim religion has murdered someone in the name of Allah so if it happens daily how can you say there are a few bad apples hell you have truck loads of bad apples

[aboutime]

SO, once again. Jafar steps forward to blame Christians, like saying..."Because I think they did this, and that. It somehow makes it alright for Hamas, or Muslim's to do the same thing?"

That's nothing but more lies, hidden behind your own need to blame others for the deeds of people you support jafar.

And, as before. Your tricks, or ways to distort, or distract....JUST WON'T WORK.

You never will give up. But then Brain Damaged people how live to HATE, never give up.

[jafar00]

The verse from the bible you refer to goes Spare the rod spoil the child and it doesn't say to beat the child to death what it refers to is a spanking or even a belt on the bottom wont huet the child and it will certainly help not spoil the child . Yes jafar over the years there have been some whacko's that kill there children because they say they heard voices or God told them to but here is the difference and this is a question I have asked you before ya don't see this on TV or in the news very often at all but every night ( or so it seems , heck it is even on FBeveryday ) someone in the Muslim religion has murdered someone in the name of Allah so if it happens daily how can you say there are a few bad apples hell you have truck loads of bad apples

The Qur'aan doesn't say to murder people either. It says NOT to murder people so murderers are not following Islam. Why give credence to their claim of doing it in the name of Allah?

[Drummond]

The Qur'aan doesn't say to murder people either. It says NOT to murder people so murderers are not following Islam. Why give credence to their claim of doing it in the name of Allah?

Who's 'their' in your sentence ?

... MUSLIMS, by any chance ? Because, I promise you, they're definitely not Christians !!

You've yet to explain why it is that so many terrorists claim to attack (your Hamas buddies included !!) in the name of Allah, i.e, for ISLAM. Why don't they claim to be doing it in the name of Christianity .. ??

Or, Jafar, DO THEY ... H'MMM ?

I've challenged you on this before, and I'm doing so again. Jafar, try starting a thread on this forum detailing all the acts of Christian terrorism which the world 'sees today'. One to rival an already long-running one we see here showing MUSLIM terrorist attacks.

Well, come on, Jafar, it should be easy !! If, as you'd like us to believe, Islam is NOT at fault for today's terrorism, then it can't be fuelling it, now, can it ? So, there should be plenty of terrorists out there willing to use Christianity as their excuse for what they do, just as 'they do so' for Islam.

Or, Jafar, is it a 'worldwide conspiracy', just to make Islam look bad ... eh, Jafar ?

Because, if that WERE true, then I'm afraid that would make your Hamas chums especially complicit, now, wouldn't it ?

How's your SUPPORT for Hamas coming along ? Any good blood feuds on the horizon (.. seeing as how Jewish blood is part of the so-called 'Palestinian' genetic heritage) ?

[Drummond]

There have been more killings in the name of Jesus than in the name of any other figure in history.

What about this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIs1-4uj_zs

Does Christianity support beating your child to death? No. So why do you condemn Islam for those who are uneducated about Islam, or who are plain bad and have their acts attributed to Islam by media reporting on the story because they happen to be Arab?



16:67
From Tafsir Al Tustari
And of the fruits of date-palms and vines from which you draw wine and goodly provision.He [Abū Bakr al-Sijzī] said, ‘This verse was abrogated by the verse on wine (khamr). Ibrāhīm and Shuʿabī also said this.’ Sahl said:As far as I am concerned, wine (sakar) is anything which intoxicates the lower self (nafs) in this world, and for which it [the nafs] does not believe it will be punished in the Hereafter.Abū Ḥamza al-Ṣūfī visited Sahl and he asked him: ‘Where have you been, Abū Ḥamza?’ He replied, ‘We were with such and such a person who informed us that intoxication is of four kinds.’ He said, ‘Tell me what they are.’ [Abū Ḥamza continued], ‘The intoxication of drink, the intoxication of youth, the intoxication of wealth and the intoxication of authority.’ Sahl replied, ‘There are two kinds of intoxication which he did not inform you about.’ He asked, ‘What are they?’ and Sahl answered, ‘The intoxication of the scholar who loves this world, and the intoxication of the worshipper who loves to be noticed.’His words, Exalted is He:

4:43
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter

5:90
O ye who believe! Strong drink and games of chance and idols and divining arrows are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. Leave it aside in order that ye may succeed.

These verses abrogated 16:67

Your army website missed 2:219 BTW :p

They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness.

9:5
The so called "verse of the sword" is for a particular time and place. Look up the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Hudaybiyyah). The verse only gives permission to kill those Arab tribes who kept fighting and killing the Muslims at the time and those who broke the treaty.

I should also point out that grammar is not a strong point among anti Islam crusaders. How can you expect such uneducated fools to comprehend the Qur'aan, let alone do any kind of study to try and understand it?

"9:5, aggregates and therefore cancels out no fewer than 124 more peaceful and tolerant verses"

I think he meant "abrogates"? :D

However 9:5 doesn't abrogate anything. It gave permission to the Muslims to defend themselves if attacked at this time.



Misquoted and twisted sure. Misinterpreted no. Even the most lame brained of us would surely research a little before acting blindly on a translation of a religious text?

A quick reply in response to the 'verse of the sword' point you raise.

I understand that Al Qaeda use it to help justify all of their terrorism (.. because they're NOT Muslims, but CIA-funded stooges, eh, Jafar .. ???).

Well, if you take an especially twisted interpretation of theirs that they're defending their lands and their culture from Western, non-Islamic influences and presences, doesn't that make contextual sense ? After all, they've considered Saudi Arabia fair game for their terrorism because of their present-day links with Americans.

'Sorry' about the Brit Army use of the word 'aggregate'. So, the author of the piece got ONE WORD wrong. Doesn't make his overall argument wrong, though, does it ?

And it may well place into proper context all of your various attempts to cite the Koran, Hadiths (.. whatever ..) as proof of the 'peaceloving' nature of Islam. In just how many of those instances, Jafar, would there be a later verse, or commandment, cancelling out the very verses you quote to us ?

You've yet to explain how it is that your Hamas chums use loyalty to Islam as the basis for Jihadist, blood feud warmongering, by the way. I look forward to your explanation ...

[Drummond]

For your enjoyment, Jafar and folks ... more irreverent offerings from that British Army website I quoted from before. Here's them having a bit of fun on the subject of Muslims ...

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Muslim


MUSLIM

Supposed follower of Islam.

What are the requirements of a Non-Muslim who wishes to convert?

Every person is born a Muslim because we are all created by God. Therefore, a preferred term would be reversion rather than conversion. A non-Muslim becomes a Muslim when he believes in his heart : "There is no God but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Messenger" Hence, belief in the Unity and Oneness of God and that Muhammad is his Messenger makes one a Muslim at heart.

Recommended steps:

Officially convert by pronouncing the shahadah (pledge of conviction of faith) in Arabic thus: "Ash HaduAllaa Ilaaha Il-lallaah Wa Ash Hadu Anna Muhammadar Rasullulah" which means "I bear Witness that there is no deity but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad if His Messenger". The pledge is to be taken in front of at least two adult Muslim witnesses (who may or may not be armed).

It is recommended that he/she take a Muslim name... (Mohammed is a good name).

It is recommended that he/she take up a basic course on Islam (if he/she hasn't already done so because they ask questions about the Koran, and will take a major huffy if you get any wrong)

Keep the company of other Muslims (otherwise they'll assume you are a Special Branch plant)

At this point the gun will be removed from your ear or knife from your throat and everyone will celebrate ...

Hey, Jafar, enjoy this British Army offering about the 'Gaza Strip' ....

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Gaza_Strip


The Gaza Strip is a piece of coast line in the Levant between Israel and Egypt.

It includes the cities of Gaza, Dayr al Balah, Khan Yunis and Rafah. Total area covered is 25 miles long and between 4–7½ miles wide totalling an area of 139 square miles.

Currently stuffed to the gills with 1.5m Palestinians and under the control of Hamas, it is one of the most dysfunctional places on the planet - with the exception of 10 Downing Street of course... and possibly Ashford.

In accordance with the Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority took over the administrative authority of the Gaza Strip in 1994. Israel withdrew all military forces and settlers by 12 September 2005 and left the Palestinian Authority to administer the whole of the Gaza Strip. It wasn't long before they had f**ked the whole place up.

The 2007 'elections' between Hamas (Islamic Resistance Movement) and Fatah (Palestine Liberation Movement) ended in a defeat for Fatah. Cue civil war bloodletting between the two sides.

Since then the winner (Hamas) have used the Gaza Strip to launch random unaimed missile attacks at the Jewish civilian population over the border. They then whine non-stop when Israel retaliates and kills a couple of hundred Hamas members and some Palestinian civilians that Hamas use as human shields.

If you really need to see just how f**ked up this is, you can read about it here or how sick Hamas is here but frankly the place needs bombing back to the stone age and then tarmac-ing over.

Jafar, I felt a sudden urge to learn just how sick Hamas really is, so I checked out the link our British Army friends kindly provide. Here's what it has to say ... ENJOY ...

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Children%27s_Club


The successful formula Sesame Street has a customised Palestinian spin off to meet the needs of children on the Westbank and in the Gaza Strip. It is currently aired under the name Children’s Club on Al-Aqsa TV.

Like the twisted brain-wrong of a drug addled Rainbow producer, it teaches Palestinian children how to become successful and respected suicide bombers.

Exactly the kind of citizens a mature state needs. Apart from that the show is trying to keep the myth alive of Palestinians actually being capable of destroying the state of Israel. A typical episodes deals with questions of faith, martyrdom and ranting about the Jews, Yanks and the other non-Muslim inhabitants of this planet.

The hostess of the show, 10 year old Saraa, is assisted by a bunny called Assud. The name suggests he’s a fierceful lion but in reality he’s just a pink piece of gay fluff. Assud is the third animal co-presenter on Children’s Club.

The first character to play the role of Big Bird was a Mickey Mouse walt called Farfour. Unfortunately he got into trouble with the Israeli’s and he got himself martyred. He was then succeeded by his brother Nahoul. A fat around the waist middle-aged tough bee who, not surprisingly, got himself martyred as well. It was up to Assud to follow in his footsteps and as he hopes to vindicate his brothers. It’s impossible to tell how long Assud will remain amongst us, but chances are he’ll get martyred off the show pretty soon considering the current situation in the Gaza Strip.

On a more educational note one could wonder what kind of deformed, retarded parents produce a mouse, a bee and a bunny as offspring. They must have been very intimately related for many generations. However the conservative Islamic movement Hamas doesn’t seem to be bothered by this grotesque monginisation of its own people and therefore it can’t be against Islam.

That page also offers a link to THIS. Now, THIS gives us a little more context ...

http://archive.adl.org/PresRele/ASaw_14/5046_14.htm


New York, NY, May 9, 2007 … The revelation that a Hamas-run TV station is using what appears to be a Mickey Mouse look-alike named "Farfur" to promote a message of radical Islam, anti-Semitism and hatred for the West, "shows that for all of their attempts to appear more moderate, Hamas is still willing to indoctrinate children into their culture of hate," the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) said today.

The "Farfur" character and child actors on the program taunt Western leaders and urge children to take up AK-47 assault rifles to defeat Israel and the United States. Farfur, a mouse in tuxedo with tails and red bow tie, first appeared last month on Al-Aqsa TV, the official television station of the terrorist group Hamas in Gaza City, according to Palestinian Media Watch (www.pmw.org.il (http://www.pmw.org.il)), which was the first to report on and translate the program. Palestinian Information Minister Mustafa Barghouti announced today that the program had been pulled off the air "for review" and said it was "wrong to use a program directed at children to convey political messages."

Hamas has long used programs aimed at young children to raise a new generation of terrorists. Other Palestinian children's programs inciting hate have used the Mickey Mouse image. An infamous 1998 episode of the program the Children's Club on official Palestinian Authority television had a Mickey Mouse-type figure amidst children praising suicide terrorist attacks against Israelis.

"When you take a Mickey Mouse-like character and deliberately use it to promote an ideology of hatred, obviously its going to have an impact on children and their thinking," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "The apparent message to children is, 'drink milk everyday, and defeat the Jews.'

"For all of their attempts to appear more moderate, Hamas is still willing to indoctrinate children into their culture of hate," added Mr. Foxman.

Hamas has been designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the U.S. State Department and is responsible for dozens of suicide attacks against Israeli civilians.

ADL wrote to Robert A. Iger, President & CEO of The Walt Disney Company, urging him to use his company's influence to put a stop "to this egregious and outrageous abuse of your intellectual property, which certainly stands in stark contrast to everything the Walt Disney Company represents."

Remind us, Jafar, please, that 'Islam is a religion of peace' ... are you now experiencing the 'warm, fuzzy feeling' that comes from joyous Hamas support ... ???

Jafar, have a nice day ...

[red state]

"The Qur'aan doesn't say to murder people either. It says NOT to murder people so murderers are not following Islam. Why give credence to their claim of doing it in the name of Allah?"

Yeah....and here's the translation:

[The koran doesn't say to murder people (aka REAL muSLUMS). It says NOT to murder REAL muSLUMs so murderers of REAL PEOPLE who are REAL muSLUMs are not following Islam but if muSLUMs who are NOT real muSLUMs, get the ax, that is all well and good. As with the "infidels", they are not people at all but pigs, monkeys and/or dogs to be slaughtered]

[red state]

You know....(IF) jafar is not lying and the absolute TRUTH (without reading between the lies) is truly the following: "The Qur'aan doesn't say to murder people either. It says NOT to murder people so murderers are not following Islam. Why give credence to their claim of doing it in the name of Allah?" then there's millions upon MILLIONS of DUMB$$$, illiterate muSLUMS out there who can't read. jafar, are you trying to tell me that the REAL muSLUMs are the 1% (maybe) who can actually read?!!! OK....that explains a lot and sheds new light on my search for them in Antarctica and/or the dark side of the moon (the object from which this evil cult derived from).

[red states rule]

The Qur'aan doesn't say to murder people either. It says NOT to murder people so murderers are not following Islam. Why give credence to their claim of doing it in the name of Allah?

Sometimes you make it so easy to expose you for the lying sack of shit that you really are





The Quran:
Quran (2:191-193) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.191) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" The historical context (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-medina-persecution.htm) of this passage is not defensive warfare, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-mecca-tolerance.htm)). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is thus disingenuous (the actual Muslim words for persecution - "idtihad" - and oppression - a variation of "z-l-m" - do not appear in the verse). The actual Arabic comes from "fitna" which can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. Taken as a whole, the context makes clear that violence is being authorized until "religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

Quran (2:244) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/002-qmt.php#002.216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that this verse was narrated at a time that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding merchant caravans (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-raid-caravans.htm) for loot.

Quran (3:56) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/003-qmt.php#003.056) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (3:151) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/003-qmt.php#003.151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Quran (4:74) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.074) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Quran (4:76) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.076) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (4:89) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.089) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (4:95) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.095) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, letting them know that they are less worthy in Allah's eyes. It also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Quran, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad and this is reflected in other translations of the verse).

Quran (4:104) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/004-qmt.php#004.104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?

Quran (5:33) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/005-qmt.php#005.033) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.012) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (8:15) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.015) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:39) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.039) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah" Some translations interpret "fitna" as "persecution", but the traditional understanding of this word is not supported by the historical context (See notes for 2:293, also). The Meccans were simply refusing Muhammad access to their city during Haj. Other Muslims were allowed to travel there - just not as an armed group, since Muhammad had declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah", meaning that the true justification of violence was the unbelief of the opposition. According to the Sira (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 324) Muhammad further explains that "Allah must have no rivals."

Quran (8:57) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.057) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Quran (8:59-60) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.059) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:65) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/008-qmt.php#008.065) - "O Prophet, exhort the believers to fight..."

Quran (9:5) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.005) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam (prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religion's Five Pillars). This popular claim that the Quran only inspires violence within the context of self-defense is seriously challenged by this passage as well, since the Muslims to whom it was written were obviously not under attack. Had they been, then there would have been no waiting period (earlier verses make it a duty for Muslims to fight in self-defense, even during the sacred months). The historical context is Mecca after the idolaters were subjugated by Muhammad and posed no threat. Once the Muslims had the power, they violently evicted those unbelievers who would not convert.

Quran (9:14) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.014) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Quran (9:20) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.020) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The Arabic word interpreted as "striving" in this verse is the same root as "Jihad". The context is obviously holy war.

Quran (9:29) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.029) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. According to this verse, they are to be violently subjugated, with the sole justification being their religious status. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.


Quran (9:30) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.030) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Quran (9:38-39) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.038) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.

Quran (9:41) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.041) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.042)) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).


Quran (9:73) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.073) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.

Quran (9:88) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.088) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Quran (9:111) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Quran: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Quran (9:123) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/009-qmt.php#009.123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Quran (17:16) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/017-qmt.php#017.016) - "And when We wish to destroy a town, We send Our commandment to the people of it who lead easy lives, but they transgress therein; thus the word proves true against it, so We destroy it with utter destruction." Note that the crime is moral transgression, and the punishment is "utter destruction." (Before ordering the 9/11 attacks, Osama bin Laden first issued Americans an invitation to Islam).

Quran (18:65-81) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/018-qmt.php#018.065) - This parable lays the theological groundwork for honor killings, in which a family member is murdered because they brought shame to the family, either through apostasy or perceived moral indiscretion. The story (which is not found in any Jewish or Christian source) tells of Moses encountering a man with "special knowledge" who does things which don't seem to make sense on the surface, but are then justified according to later explanation. One such action is to murder a youth for no apparent reason (74). However, the wise man later explains that it was feared that the boy would "grieve" his parents by "disobedience and ingratitude." He was killed so that Allah could provide them a 'better' son. (Note: This is one reason why honor killing is sanctioned by Sharia. Reliance of the Traveler (Umdat al-Saliq) says that punishment for murder is not applicable when a parent or grandparent kills their offspring (o.1.1-2).)

Quran (21:44) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/021-qmt.php#021.044) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Quran (25:52) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/025-qmt.php#025.052) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness..." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.

Quran (33:60-62) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/033-qmt.php#033.060) - "If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbors in it but a little while. Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter." This passage sanctions the slaughter (rendered "merciless" and "horrible murder" in other translations) against three groups: Hypocrites (Muslims who refuse to "fight in the way of Allah" (3:167 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/003-qmt.php#003.167)) and hence don't act as Muslims should), those with "diseased hearts" (which include Jews and Christians 5:51-52 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/005-qmt.php#005.051)), and "alarmists" or "agitators who include those who merely speak out against Islam, according to Muhammad's biographers. It is worth noting that the victims are to be sought out by Muslims, which is what today's terrorists do. If this passage is meant merely to apply to the city of Medina, then it is unclear why it is included in Allah's eternal word to Muslim generations.

Quran (47:3-4) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/047-qmt.php#047.003) - "Those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the truth from their lord. Thus does Allah set forth form men their lessons by similitude. Therefore when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners," Those who reject Allah are to be subdued in battle. The verse goes on to say the only reason Allah doesn't do the dirty work himself is in order to to test the faithfulness of Muslims. Those who kill pass the test. "But if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost."

Quran (47:35) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/047-qmt.php#047.035) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"

Quran (48:17) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/048-qmt.php#048.017) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted? This verse also says that those who do not fight will suffer torment in hell.

Quran (48:29) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/048-qmt.php#048.029) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status. Also the word used for 'hard' or 'ruthless' in this verse shares the same root as the word translated as 'painful' or severe' in verse 16.

Quran (61:4) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/061-qmt.php#061.004) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed! The verse explicitly refers to "battle array" meaning war. This is followed by (61:9 (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/061-qmt.php#061.009)): "He it is who has sent His Messenger (Mohammed) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam) to make it victorious over all religions even though the infidels may resist." (See next verse, below). Infidels who resist Islamic rule are to be fought.

Quran (61:10-12) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/061-qmt.php#061.010) - "O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a commerce that will save you from a painful torment. That you believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwelling in Gardens of 'Adn - Eternity ['Adn (Edn) Paradise], that is indeed the great success." This verse refers to physical battle in order to make Islam victorious over other religions (see above). It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.

Quran (66:9) (http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/066-qmt.php#066.009) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

[jafar00]

Jafar, try starting a thread on this forum detailing all the acts of Christian terrorism which the world 'sees today'. One to rival an already long-running one we see here showing MUSLIM terrorist attacks.

We really don't need more nonsense around here do we? I have better things to do with my time than spend it listing crimes and attaching religions to the perpetrators.


A quick reply in response to the 'verse of the sword' point you raise.

I understand that Al Qaeda use it to help justify all of their terrorism (.. because they're NOT Muslims, but CIA-funded stooges, eh, Jafar .. ???).

Well, if you take an especially twisted interpretation of theirs that they're defending their lands and their culture from Western, non-Islamic influences and presences, doesn't that make contextual sense ? After all, they've considered Saudi Arabia fair game for their terrorism because of their present-day links with Americans.

Al Qaeda is purely political. Their twisted interpretations are for western audiences. Educated Muslims know they are full of BS. They spend most of their time killing Muslims don't' they? As for context, if a verse is for a particular time then it makes no sense to apply it to today does it?


'Sorry' about the Brit Army use of the word 'aggregate'. So, the author of the piece got ONE WORD wrong. Doesn't make his overall argument wrong, though, does it ?

It shows up their lack of scholarly credentials for sure. I don't expect such a person to have actually studied Islam at all before typing all that offensive nonsense.


And it may well place into proper context all of your various attempts to cite the Koran, Hadiths (.. whatever ..) as proof of the 'peaceloving' nature of Islam. In just how many of those instances, Jafar, would there be a later verse, or commandment, cancelling out the very verses you quote to us ?

You've yet to explain how it is that your Hamas chums use loyalty to Islam as the basis for Jihadist, blood feud warmongering, by the way. I look forward to your explanation ...

You must be careful to separate Islam from the political agenda of Hamas. Politics and religion do not usually mix well.


For your enjoyment, Jafar and folks ... more irreverent offerings from that British Army website I quoted from before. Here's them having a bit of fun on the subject of Muslims ...

http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/Muslim

I'm not interested in reading a website full of offensive and hate speech called Arse. :p

[red state]

Yeah....we understand, jafar, muSLUMS truly are a peaceful group....not violent at all; just REALLY, Really, really stupid and the most illiterate group of people in the entire world. (IF) they could actually read the wonderful scriptures we all know as the koran, they'd know that MOST of their "holy men" and leaders were wrong and they'd not follow their teachings/orders and KILL those whom they do not tolerate. In fact, they'd be one of the most FREE and FRIENDLY society (IF) only they weren't so darn STUPID.....RIGHT?! They are simply misguided souls that have been led astray by the many NON-REAL muSLUM leaders and holy men. Gotcha!!!! I understand where all the REAL muSLUMS are now......they truly are all around us and can not be held responsible for what most of their holymen and leaders do and tell them to do. Makes sense now. (IF) only we could get more of them to the USA so that we can educate them and send them back to their own countries to then educate their fellow muSLUM. This world would be a much better place. As is....not so much because not all muSLUMS are terrorists (I suppose) but most certainly MOST of the terrorism we see just about EACH AND EVERY DAY come from the hands of muSLUMS. Surely we can all agree with that last statement. (IF) not, then you truly are a sack of $#!T. (IF) only you could reach more folks that "FEEL" for your cause....

[aboutime]

Today. I have decided to Not IGNORE jafar, and the trash he posts here.

But rather. BOYCOTT everything jafar brings here as USELESS, WASTE, and More LIES.

Seems all of us have fallen for his ploy, and false Prophesy hidden in Muslim, Islam Propaganda.

He rarely, if at all...bothers to respond to my remarks directed his way. Which always points out how desperately he must...at all costs, avoid being confronted with TRUTH.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Every bit of the Qur'aan has a wealth of scholarly study to draw from. Nothing there could be misinterpreted as supporting terrorism. Reading it blindly (as an English interpretation) you could, but presenting it to further a murderous agenda is just pure fail because you cannot change what it actually means no matter how much you twist it.

The rantings of your pedophile prophet aren't worth the toilet paper I wipe my ass with.

[aboutime]

The rantings of your pedophile prophet aren't worth the toilet paper I wipe my ass with.


Marcus. This is for jafar. Let him work it out for himself....5391

[Drummond]

We, the members of DP. Should be praising, applauding, and admiring jafar for is insatiable ability to endlessly bring nearly every possible excuse to this forum. And never fully understand how his endless contributions of excuses, based on distractions, and lies he MUST always repeat...make him look, and sound so Foolish, Immature, and just plain SILLY.

I shall remember to applaud Jafar in future, then. One of his latest suggestions is that one Abu Hamza, wanted (and extradited !!) on various AMERICAN terrorist charges, is one of a collection of 'MI5 stooges', employed by MI5 to make Islam look bad !!!

... It has its funny side ... :laugh:

[Drummond]

We really don't need more nonsense around here do we? I have better things to do with my time than spend it listing crimes and attaching religions to the perpetrators.

This is JafarSpeak for, 'I cannot meet your challenge, but I'm determined not to admit it'.

All way too transparent, Jafar. Sorry.


Al Qaeda is purely political. Their twisted interpretations are for western audiences. Educated Muslims know they are full of BS. They spend most of their time killing Muslims don't' they? As for context, if a verse is for a particular time then it makes no sense to apply it to today does it?

Points in order:-

Agreed - Al Q is political, though they absolutely insist that what drives them is Islam. Their political goals are meant to further an Islamic agenda, something also true for your buddies Hamas, not to mention a whole alphabet soup's worth of other Jihadist groups / savages.

I don't know whether or not they do spend 'more' time killing Muslims. What I am sure of is that they attack Muslims for being too close to Westerners and Western influences .. after all, such influences 'aren't compatible with Islam', so Muslims guilty of such 'transgressions' have to be punished, don't they ?

As for a verse only being applicable to a particular time, surely, this makes much of Islamic literature redundant ?

.. OR .. actually, it DOESN'T, because Islamists seem to still think that their world environment can be equated to conditions and outlooks of many centuries ago. Everyone else has moved on. Islam has NOT !


It shows up their lack of scholarly credentials for sure. I don't expect such a person to have actually studied Islam at all before typing all that offensive nonsense.

They may be less than totally expert. After all, they don't profess to be more than just British service personnel. Even so .. isn't it reasonable to think that they'd have a working knowledge of the nature of their adversaries ?

... and they definitely DO ...


You must be careful to separate Islam from the political agenda of Hamas. Politics and religion do not usually mix well.

Your words are better directed at HAMAS !!!! Read their Charter. When you have, see for yourself that THEY make NO such distinction. To them, their political AND religious aims mesh together perfectly. I have seen no evidence of any conscious separation of the two in Hamas's viewpoint.


I'm not interested in reading a website full of offensive and hate speech called Arse. :p

Despite the extent to which it's appropriate ?? :p:p

[aboutime]

This is JafarSpeak for, 'I cannot meet your challenge, but I'm determined not to admit it'.

All way too transparent, Jafar. Sorry.



Points in order:-

Agreed - Al Q is political, though they absolutely insist that what drives them is Islam. Their political goals are meant to further an Islamic agenda, something also true for your buddies Hamas, not to mention a whole alphabet soup's worth of other Jihadist groups / savages.

I don't know whether or not they do spend 'more' time killing Muslims. What I am sure of is that they attack Muslims for being too close to Westerners and Western influences .. after all, such influences 'aren't compatible with Islam', so Muslims guilty of such 'transgressions' have to be punished, don't they ?

As for a verse only being applicable to a particular time, surely, this makes much of Islamic literature redundant ?

.. OR .. actually, it DOESN'T, because Islamists seem to still think that their world environment can be equated to conditions and outlooks of many centuries ago. Everyone else has moved on. Islam has NOT !



They may be less than totally expert. After all, they don't profess to be more than just British service personnel. Even so .. isn't it reasonable to think that they'd have a working knowledge of the nature of their adversaries ?

... and they definitely DO ...



Your words are better directed at HAMAS !!!! Read their Charter. When you have, see for yourself that THEY make NO such distinction. To them, their political AND religious aims mesh together perfectly. I have seen no evidence of any conscious separation of the two in Hamas's viewpoint.



Despite the extent to which it's appropriate ?? :p:p


SO....jafar should stop reading every post he makes here since....it is based on Hate speech as it's intent, and core principles????

[Drummond]

SO....jafar should stop reading every post he makes here since....it is based on Hate speech as it's intent, and core principles????:clap::clap: :laugh::laugh2::laugh:

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

The Qur'aan doesn't say to murder people either. It says NOT to murder people so murderers are not following Islam. Why give credence to their claim of doing it in the name of Allah? Hamas does it in Allah's name!! Yet you support them.. You can not justify decrying such acts as evil and not part of Islam while you support a group that engages in such acts with joy in their wicked little hearts! The two just don't jive Jafar! If you are in for a penny you are in for a pound. -Tyr

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

"The Qur'aan doesn't say to murder people either. It says NOT to murder people so murderers are not following Islam. Why give credence to their claim of doing it in the name of Allah?"

Yeah....and here's the translation:

[The koran doesn't say to murder people (aka REAL muSLUMS). It says NOT to murder REAL muSLUMs so murderers of REAL PEOPLE who are REAL muSLUMs are not following Islam but if muSLUMs who are NOT real muSLUMs, get the ax, that is all well and good. As with the "infidels", they are not people at all but pigs, monkeys and/or dogs to be slaughtered]
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZAAAAACCCCCTTTTTLLLLLYYYYY YYYYY--:beer:

[truthmatters]

how many have been killed in the name of Christianity ?

[Drummond]

how many have been killed in the name of Christianity ?

--- What, you mean by Muslims ?? And over how long a period ?

No idea. But if anyone can come up with an estimate .. should be interesting.

[red states rule]

how many have been killed in the name of Christianity ?

As I told another poster, when have Christians rioted over a Bible being burned? OR when did the Pope call for the murder of someone for making a joke about God? Or when did a Christian run around shooting people while yelling "In praise of Jesus"?

I do not expect an answer from you TM since you are like Gabby and are nothing but a drive by liberal poster

[red states rule]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZAAAAACCCCCTTTTTLLLLLYYYYY YYYYY--:beer:

I seem to have offended Jafar with that long post showing examples of his "prophet" calling for the murder of those who do not follow Islam


Jafar if you are reading this I did not intend to offend but to simply show you what is in your "bible" But your silence tells me you are perhaps upset or offended. Please understand if you were offended by my posting the truth about Islam

I don't give a shit

[aboutime]

I seem to have offended Jafar with that long post showing examples of his "prophet" calling for the murder of those who do not follow Islam


Jafar if you are reading this I did not intend to offend but to simply show you what is in your "bible" But your silence tells me you are perhaps upset or offended. Please understand if you were offended by my posting the truth about Islam

I don't give a shit


JAFAR should be paying attention to what is taking place in Egypt today. And, he's probably celebrating the very things he claims his Religion never does. Jafar isn't worth it. And I would happily let him see the SOLES of my SHOES.

[red states rule]

JAFAR should be paying attention to what is taking place in Egypt today. And, he's probably celebrating the very things he claims his Religion never does. Jafar isn't worth it. And I would happily let him see the SOLES of my SHOES.

Jafar would bellow how the video is edited and made up

or those damn Jews are to blame for causing all the trouble

Either way Jafer would NEVER blame the Muslim Brotherhood for any violence or murders

[aboutime]

Jafar would bellow how the video is edited and made up

or those damn Jews are to blame for causing all the trouble

Either way Jafer would NEVER blame the Muslim Brotherhood for any violence or murders



The SILENCE of jafar on this topic is....DEAFENING.