Ann Barnhardt - Islamic Sexuality: A survey of evil

[Jeff]

A friend of mine posted this else where and I found it very intresting and thought some may also

Part 1 of 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xh63XVaT_u8

Part 2 of 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mZPIbz-n_c

Part 3 *warning very explicit * of 4 you may need a account with you tube for this one I am not sure I had to sign in but being I did already it might just play

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEKAuJewbXg&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFE KAuJewbXg&has_verified=1

Part 4 of 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfqNPJVWzpw


WOW if half of this is fact these people are terrible and this woman took much of her info right out of the Koran , she gives verse and all , simply WOW

[Gaffer]

She's pointing out what many others have pointed out in the past. This IS islam, in spite of what jafar may claim. Good find Jeff. Anyone that watches these needs to watch all four and the third one is not safe for work.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Jahil will claim anti-Islamic hate site, and poor Koran translation. Then he'll proceed to 'properly translate' the passages for use, showing how it's all kittens and party balloons.

[Jeff]

Jahil will claim anti-Islamic hate site, and poor Koran translation. Then he'll proceed to 'properly translate' the passages for use, showing how it's all kittens and party balloons.

He may do that but I did some checking on Ann before posting and Michelle Obama introduced her somewhere and praised her like I have never heard before , and this coming from Muslim want to Be's

Honestly this is the first time I have seen just how barbaric these people are and yes they need to be removed

[Gaffer]

Ann is cool. I watched her koran burning youtube when it first came out over a year ago. She doesn't pull punches and jafar would insist she just a hate monger. Every non-muslim woman in the world should be made to watch this.

The new name for the brotherhood is now the muslim buggerhood. I think that's more appropriate.

[Jeff]

Ann is cool. I watched her koran burning youtube when it first came out over a year ago. She doesn't pull punches and jafar would insist she just a hate monger. Every non-muslim woman in the world should be made to watch this.

The new name for the brotherhood is now the muslim buggerhood. I think that's more appropriate.

And what gets me is most woman voted for Obama who lets face it if he isn't a Muslim ya cant get much closer


Gaffer how about the Thursday night Buggerhood :laugh: Don't forget Allah is busy on Thursdays so they can have at each other on that night , man what a sick twisted group of people , but the one I like best was if you have sex with a animal you shouldn't sell the meat to anyone in your village but the next village over should be OK :laugh:

One hour never had me with so many mixed emotions, I Laughed I was disgusted I wanted to get sick I wanted to beat the hell out of many and my heart bleed for those woman and children but then Thursday night came , did I mention I :laugh:

[Gaffer]

And what gets me is most woman voted for Obama who lets face it if he isn't a Muslim ya cant get much closer


Gaffer how about the Thursday night Buggerhood :laugh: Don't forget Allah is busy on Thursdays so they can have at each other on that night , man what a sick twisted group of people , but the one I like best was if you have sex with a animal you shouldn't sell the meat to anyone in your village but the next village over should be OK :laugh:

One hour never had me with so many mixed emotions, I Laughed I was disgusted I wanted to get sick I wanted to beat the hell out of many and my heart bleed for those woman and children but then Thursday night came , did I mention I :laugh:

:laugh: Yeah the Thursday night thing was hilarious. I'm sure obama likes his Thursday nights as well. We are being heavily armed here with the muslim buggerhood and Thursday night.

I was like you, I laughed and was shocked at some of that. I didn't know the mutilation percentage was so high.

[jafar00]

Bile. Lies and bile.

All I can say is that after a google search to find out about this woman, they certainly love her over at Stormfront (a white supremacist forum).

She would be guilty of hate crimes anywhere else than USA.

[Jeff]

Bile. Lies and bile.

All I can say is that after a google search to find out about this woman, they certainly love her over at Stormfront (a white supremacist forum).

She would be guilty of hate crimes anywhere else than USA.

jafar by no means am I a expert but a lot of what she said she backed with scripture from the Koan and yes I know it can be picked out of context but it is hard for me to believe it all was and like I posted in the original post I stated if 1/2 of this is correct Muslims are animals and need to be removed from the face of the earth , as for this woman herself she didn't seem like a racist to me at all ( a fanatic maybe ) but after watching what Muslims do to babies ages 7 to 11 ( to make sure they feel it and remember it ) that is disgusting and she has videos of it being done, jafar its not to late man find you a good Christian church and repent for your sins before it is to late . But I have to ask do you partake in the Thursday night party ( being Allah is to busy to see yall ) :laugh:

[tailfins]

Bile. Lies and bile.

All I can say is that after a google search to find out about this woman, they certainly love her over at Stormfront (a white supremacist forum).

She would be guilty of hate crimes anywhere else than USA.

I'm sorry to hear that you can't handle freedom of speech. You're free (in the USA) to counter her freedom of speech with your own freedom of speech. I don't spend much time on these things pro or con because I have more important things to do.

[Jeff]

I'm sorry to hear that you can't handle freedom of speech. You're free (in the USA) to counter her freedom of speech with your own freedom of speech. I don't spend much time on these things pro or con because I have more important things to do.

I do have to wonder why jafar doesn't prove these accusations wrong it is very simple to do , Part 1, 7 mins and 4 seconds into it here is my proof that it is wrong, or show me the scripture that she shows from your Koran ( comic book is more like it ) she shows page verse and book how easy to prove it wrong but nope all he can sat is it is vile, that doesn't work for me. But then again today is Saturday he may still be resting up from Thursday night :laugh:

[jimnyc]

Bile. Lies and bile.

All I can say is that after a google search to find out about this woman, they certainly love her over at Stormfront (a white supremacist forum).

She would be guilty of hate crimes anywhere else than USA.

Since you watched all the videos, how about you give us specifics, like which video and at what specific minute/second where there are lies? Bile I can understand, and agree, because SO much in Islam IS bile. But to simply discard it without specifics, claim it's hate speech and then walk away, shows us NOTHING other than someone not wanting to address specifics. The woman seems VERY educated and knowledgeable, and I'll be curious to read your specifics.

And anywhere else than the USA, pointing out how women in Islamare mutilated in some areas, and some of the other sick things that happen, is now hate speech? When it's FACT and supported by actual footage of it happening, I lean more towards a documentary than hate speech. I suppose anything that shows Islam in a negative light, or how SO many women are abused in SO many countries, pointing out these facts is hate speech. Sure, and pull on my left testicle and it'll play Stairway to Heaven. :rolleyes:

[tailfins]

Since you watched all the videos, how about you give us specifics, like which video and at what specific minute/second where there are lies? Bile I can understand, and agree, because SO much in Islam IS bile. But to simply discard it without specifics, claim it's hate speech and then walk away, shows us NOTHING other than someone not wanting to address specifics. The woman seems VERY educated and knowledgeable, and I'll be curious to read your specifics.

And anywhere else than the USA, pointing out how women in Islamare mutilated in some areas, and some of the other sick things that happen, is now hate speech? When it's FACT and supported by actual footage of it happening, I lean more towards a documentary than hate speech. I suppose anything that shows Islam in a negative light, or how SO many women are abused in SO many countries, pointing out these facts is hate speech. Sure, and pull on my left testicle and it'll play Stairway to Heaven. :rolleyes:

So THAT'S the line you use to trick women into bed. How many drinks do you have to feed them to fall for it?

[jafar00]

jafar by no means am I a expert but a lot of what she said she backed with scripture from the Koan and yes I know it can be picked out of context but it is hard for me to believe it all was and like I posted in the original post I stated if 1/2 of this is correct Muslims are animals and need to be removed from the face of the earth , as for this woman herself she didn't seem like a racist to me at all ( a fanatic maybe ) but after watching what Muslims do to babies ages 7 to 11 ( to make sure they feel it and remember it ) that is disgusting and she has videos of it being done, jafar its not to late man find you a good Christian church and repent for your sins before it is to late . But I have to ask do you partake in the Thursday night party ( being Allah is to busy to see yall ) :laugh:

She based none of her rant on Islamic scripture. She produced only her twisted opinion of an English interpretation of the Qur'aan taken out of context at face value and without researching the meaning of the verse beforehand.

And what is this Thursday night party?


I'm sorry to hear that you can't handle freedom of speech. You're free (in the USA) to counter her freedom of speech with your own freedom of speech. I don't spend much time on these things pro or con because I have more important things to do.

Freedom of speech should have limits. When it spreads hatred and enmity, it should be shut down.


Since you watched all the videos, how about you give us specifics, like which video and at what specific minute/second where there are lies? Bile I can understand, and agree, because SO much in Islam IS bile. But to simply discard it without specifics, claim it's hate speech and then walk away, shows us NOTHING other than someone not wanting to address specifics. The woman seems VERY educated and knowledgeable, and I'll be curious to read your specifics.

And anywhere else than the USA, pointing out how women in Islamare mutilated in some areas, and some of the other sick things that happen, is now hate speech? When it's FACT and supported by actual footage of it happening, I lean more towards a documentary than hate speech. I suppose anything that shows Islam in a negative light, or how SO many women are abused in SO many countries, pointing out these facts is hate speech. Sure, and pull on my left testicle and it'll play Stairway to Heaven. :rolleyes:

You should be careful to separate abhorrent tribal, pre-Islamic customs with what Islam actually teaches. The two are too often confused.


I do have to wonder why jafar doesn't prove these accusations wrong it is very simple to do , Part 1, 7 mins and 4 seconds into it here is my proof that it is wrong, or show me the scripture that she shows from your Koran ( comic book is more like it ) she shows page verse and book how easy to prove it wrong but nope all he can sat is it is vile, that doesn't work for me. But then again today is Saturday he may still be resting up from Thursday night :laugh:

I can't find what you wanted. Part one is only 5 minutes long.

But let's look at other things...

Part 2, 3:06 "What is the penalty for apostasy from Islam? Death"
Um.. what? Where is it stated in the Qur'aan or Hadiths that there is any worldly penalty for apostasy? Nowhere

Part 2: 6:59 "women are your fields..."
I don't know what translation she is using but verse 223 not 222 has similar words. I can understand someone so full of hate mixing up the verses but it doesn't bode well for her credentials of an "expert" on Islam if she messes up such a simple detail.

Anyway, what is wrong with mentioning that men may have relations with their wives and make babies? Going to them "as you will" was a brilliant counter to a rumour being spread by the Jews at the time that if you have sex from behind, your children will be born cross eyed. Basically it is permission from God to enjoy sexual relations in a way that you both enjoy in any position you like and make babies! It has nothing to do with demeaning women at all. I find the American concept of "I'd tap that", "dat ass...", "Lets go out and get laid" a lot more demeaning, however you consider that acceptable?

And so on. She goes on to confuse cultural inadequacies of Afghan men, to outright misunderstanding of what she is reading from certain verses. I couldn't watch any more of this foul mouthed diatribe.

Why are you listening to such an uneducated fool?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

[QUOTE=jafar00;653191]She based none of her rant on Islamic scripture. She produced only her twisted opinion of an English interpretation of the Qur'aan taken out of context at face value and without researching the meaning of the verse beforehand.


But let's look at other things...

Part 2, 3:06 "What is the penalty for apostasy from Islam? Death"
Um.. what? Where is it stated in the Qur'aan or Hadiths that there is any worldly penalty for apostasy? Nowhere

Part 2: 6:59 "women are your fields..."
I don't know what translation she is using but verse 223 not 222 has similar words. I can understand someone so full of hate mixing up the verses but it doesn't bode well for her credentials of an "expert" on Islam if she messes up such a simple detail.

QUOTE]

Lets see about that. http://www.tigchurch.org/THE%20PUNISHMENT%20FOR%20APOSTASY%20FROM%20ISLAM.h tm

QURANIC VERSES SUMMARY<o:p></o>


A review of the Quran’s position on apostates:<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
Muhammad is to “make war” on them<o:p></o>
Allah is going to punish them in this world and in the next<o:p></o>
Allah curses them<o:p></o>
They will be punished in hellfire<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
The Dictionary of Quranic Terms and Concepts - page 16, (written by M. Mir - a Muslim writer), defines the actual Quranic information as:<o:p></o>
"APOSTASY.Arabic "irtidad". Traditional Islamic law prescribes the penalty of death for a Muslim who commits apostasy. The punishment is not stated in the Quran, but is said to be based on certain Hadith. The advocates and the opponents of the said penalty have, in their attempt to find Quranic support for their views, appealed to certain Quranic verses, but the fact is that none of the arguments offered do full justice to the Quranic context......"<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>


THE TEACHINGS OF THE HADITH ON APOSTASY<o:p></o>


It is from the Hadith that we draw our understanding and information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari's Hadith, from the 9 volume English set, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan. <o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
Bukhari, volume 9, #17<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
Bukhari, volume 9, #37<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reversers from Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:<o:p></o>

[Jeff]

She based none of her rant on Islamic scripture. She produced only her twisted opinion of an English interpretation of the Qur'aan taken out of context at face value and without researching the meaning of the verse beforehand.First I would like to thank you for trying I remember some of what she said the other I will google

And what is this Thursday night party?I remember this from the videos she said that on Thursday Allah is busy so he isn't paying attention so that is the night Muslim men get together to party and partake in homosexual sex, she also said that Gay sex is wrong in the Koran but if you are the pitcher it is OK only the catcher is committing a sin



Freedom of speech should have limits. When it spreads hatred and enmity, it should be shut down.If it's out and out lies I agree



You should be careful to separate abhorrent tribal, pre-Islamic customs with what Islam actually teaches. The two are too often confused. Honestly I have no idea the difference jafar , I am not trying to be a smart A** just being honest


I can't find what you wanted. Part one is only 5 minutes long. The next three where anywhere from 12 to 15 mins long

But let's look at other things...

Part 2, 3:06 "What is the penalty for apostasy from Islam? Death"
Um.. what? Where is it stated in the Qur'aan or Hadiths that there is any worldly penalty for apostasy? Nowhere
ME
Googled
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): ردة‎ riddah, literally means: "relapse (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/relapse)" or "regress (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/regress)" but usually translates to "apostasy (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apostasy)", or ارتداد irtidād) is commonly defined in Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) as the rejection in word or deed of one's former religion (apostasy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy)) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Islam) – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadiths) – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) society or nation."[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-news.bbc.co.uk-1) The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty) or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-KEY-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-4) Several contemporary Muslim scholars, including influential Islamic reformers have rejected this, arguing for religious freedom instead.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-KEY-3)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-alBanna_rejects_apostasy-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-Kutty_rejects_apostasy-7) Converts from Islam to Christianity have likewise criticized the traditional position.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-8) According to Islamic law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia) apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_Islam), rejecting the prophets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam), mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting the sharia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia), or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina) or the eating of forbidden foods or drinking of alcoholic beverages.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-10)

Part 2: 6:59 "women are your fields..."
I don't know what translation she is using but verse 223 not 222 has similar words. I can understand someone so full of hate mixing up the verses but it doesn't bode well for her credentials of an "expert" on Islam if she messes up such a simple detail.

This what came up when I googled are woman considered fields in the Muslim religion
ME
Women in the Koran "They ask you about menstruation. Say: 'It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you....'" Quran 2:222, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 34 (http://books.google.com/books?id=J2kdS2Aa328C&printsec=frontcover&dq=dawood+koran+arabic&hl=en&ei=opSPTL6NKpCmsQOr6tSxDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22They%20ask%20you%20about%20menstruation%22&f=false) "Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Quran 2:223, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 34 (http://books.google.com/books?id=J2kdS2Aa328C&printsec=frontcover&dq=dawood+koran+arabic&hl=en&ei=opSPTL6NKpCmsQOr6tSxDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Women%20are%20your%20fields%22&f=false)







Anyway, what is wrong with mentioning that men may have relations with their wives and make babies? Going to them "as you will" was a brilliant counter to a rumour being spread by the Jews at the time that if you have sex from behind, your children will be born cross eyed. Basically it is permission from God to enjoy sexual relations in a way that you both enjoy in any position you like and make babies! It has nothing to do with demeaning women at all. I find the American concept of "I'd tap that", "dat ass...", "Lets go out and get laid" a lot more demeaning, however you consider that acceptable?I agree jafar sex between two adults is fine , sex between a child and a man is wrong , treating a woman as though she is a field you can plow anytime you want is wrong as for slang terms used here in America I would much rather hear I am going to tap that ass than hear I can't wait until that baby can bear my weight so I can take her, yes according to the video that is a rather new law in the Islamic sexual behavior as long as the man feels the child can bear his weight he can take her

And so on. She goes on to confuse cultural inadequacies of Afghan men, to outright misunderstanding of what she is reading from certain verses. I couldn't watch any more of this foul mouthed diatribe. jafar when the god you worship admits to having taken a 6 year old to be his wife but he was a real sport and waited until she was 9 to have sex with her it kind of makes a lot of what this woman said tame as for why am I listening to her it seems everything that I did google came back with her answers , I am interested in your version of it because no I dont know enough to form a accurate opinion but I must say I am with out a doubt leaning to the point of her side

Why are you listening to such an uneducated fool?

I hope that helped explain it jafar you should watch the video and maybe you would understand why I am feeling the way I do

[jimnyc]

THE TEACHINGS OF THE HADITH ON APOSTASY<o:p>
</o
<o:p<o:p<o:p<o:p<o:p<o:p<o:p<o:p<o:p
It is from the Hadith that we draw our understanding and information on the punishment for the apostate. From the Hadith, we find no ambiguity on the subject. All quotes will be from Bukhari's Hadith, from the 9 volume English set, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan. <o:p>
<o:p>
Bukhari, volume 9, #17<o:p>
<o:p>
"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."<o:p>
<o:p>
Bukhari, volume 9, #37<o:p>
<o:p>
"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....<o:p>
<o:p>
In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reversers from Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:<o:p>

I'm afraid you're wasting your time with these verses as it'll just be denied as it has the last 30 times I've posted it as well - even though people still die all the time for apostasy within Islam and there are converts who speak out all the time, who had to hide in fear and move or face death. The actual deaths, which are never ending, and the verses and such posted will ALL be denied as non-Muslims, radicals and "no worldly punishment for apostasy" even though it's written and happens all the time.

[Marcus Aurelius]

She based none of her rant on Islamic scripture. She produced only her twisted opinion of an English interpretation of the Qur'aan taken out of context at face value and without researching the meaning of the verse beforehand....

called it.

[jafar00]

I remember this from the videos she said that on Thursday Allah is busy so he isn't paying attention so that is the night Muslim men get together to party and partake in homosexual sex, she also said that Gay sex is wrong in the Koran but if you are the pitcher it is OK only the catcher is committing a sin

I have no idea where she got that from. Homosexuality is a great sin in Islam. Even heterosexual anal sex is forbidden. Another example of how twisted this woman is.
Tell me why anyone is listening to this nonsense?



If it's out and out lies I agree

It doesn't have to be lies. Anyone can lie in public and that's fine but when so much hate is expelled like this, it can and does incite others to violence.


Honestly I have no idea the difference jafar , I am not trying to be a smart A** just being honest

If you study Islam, you can immediately see the difference between ancient customs and Islam.

One example is FGM, a practise that pre dates Islam and even Christianity. Is performed by Christians, Muslims, Animists and other religions mostly in Africa, yet the only ones vilified for doing it are the ones who happen to be Muslims. Perhaps because the forces with the anti Islam agenda are better funded and organised?


The next three where anywhere from 12 to 15 mins long

Sorry. You asked for the bit in part one, 7mins 4seconds in. It wasn't long enough.



Googled
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): ردة‎ riddah, literally means: "relapse (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/relapse)" or "regress (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/regress)" but usually translates to "apostasy (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/apostasy)", or ارتداد irtidād) is commonly defined in Islam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) as the rejection in word or deed of one's former religion (apostasy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy)) by a person who was previously a follower of Islam. Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Islam) – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadiths) – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) society or nation."[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-news.bbc.co.uk-1) The majority of Muslim scholars hold to the traditional view that apostasy is punishable by death (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty) or imprisonment until repentance, at least for adult men of sound mind.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-KEY-3)[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-4)Several contemporary Muslim scholars, including influential Islamic reformers have rejected this, arguing for religious freedom instead.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-KEY-3)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-alBanna_rejects_apostasy-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-Kutty_rejects_apostasy-7) Converts from Islam to Christianity have likewise criticized the traditional position.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-8) According to Islamic law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia) apostasy is identified by a list of actions such as conversion to another religion, denying the existence of God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_Islam), rejecting the prophets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam), mocking God or the prophets, idol worship, rejecting thesharia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia), or permitting behavior that is forbidden by the sharia, such as adultery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina) or the eating of forbidden foods or drinking of alcoholic beverages.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam#cite_note-10)


Not sure where you got that from so let us look at what the Qur'aan says.
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. (2:256)

To start, there is no forcing you to believe.
Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way. (4:176)

If there is a death penalty for leaving Islam, what is this verse doing there? This describes someone who leaves several times without being killed the first time.Now, what about the penalty of disbelief? There are consequences in the afterlife.Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! (18:29)

Anti Islam campaigners often (mis)quote the Hadith where Mohamed (saw) apparently says "Kill whoever changes his religion" which has only one person in the chain of transmission and is unverified which makes it a very weak Hadith so it cannot be used to formulate a position in Sharia. This is why you shouldn't get your information about Islam from hate sites, and anti Islam campaigners for the simple reason that they have no idea what they are talking about.


Part 2: 6:59 "women are your fields..."
I don't know what translation she is using but verse 223 not 222 has similar words. I can understand someone so full of hate mixing up the verses but it doesn't bode well for her credentials of an "expert" on Islam if she messes up such a simple detail.

This what came up when I googled are woman considered fields in the Muslim religion
ME
Women in the Koran

"They ask you about menstruation. Say: 'It is an indisposition. Keep aloof from women during their menstrual periods and do not approach them until they are clean again; when they are clean, have intercourse with them whence God enjoined you....'" Quran 2:222, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 34 (http://books.google.com/books?id=J2kdS2Aa328C&printsec=frontcover&dq=dawood+koran+arabic&hl=en&ei=opSPTL6NKpCmsQOr6tSxDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22They%20ask%20you%20about%20menstruation%22&f=false) "Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Quran 2:223, "The Cow," Dawood, p. 34 (http://books.google.com/books?id=J2kdS2Aa328C&printsec=frontcover&dq=dawood+koran+arabic&hl=en&ei=opSPTL6NKpCmsQOr6tSxDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Women%20are%20your%20fields%22&f=false)

Anyway, what is wrong with mentioning that men may have relations with their wives and make babies? Going to them "as you will" was a brilliant counter to a rumour being spread by the Jews at the time that if you have sex from behind, your children will be born cross eyed. Basically it is permission from God to enjoy sexual relations in a way that you both enjoy in any position you like and make babies! It has nothing to do with demeaning women at all. I find the American concept of "I'd tap that", "dat ass...", "Lets go out and get laid" a lot more demeaning, however you consider that acceptable?I agree jafar sex between two adults is fine , sex between a child and a man is wrong , treating a woman as though she is a field you can plow anytime you want is wrong as for slang terms used here in America I would much rather hear I am going to tap that ass than hear I can't wait until that baby can bear my weight so I can take her, yes according to the video that is a rather new law in the Islamic sexual behavior as long as the man feels the child can bear his weight he can take her

Do you understand what it means by "fields"? I loaded some other translations into Zekr Qur'aan software. The Sahih international translation makes what I said before a little clearer.
Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish (2:223)Wives are for having babies with. This is common sense. The second part basically gives permission to have (vaginal) sex in any way you both enjoy it. Standing, sitting, "doggy style", or plain old missionary. Remember, this is all in the context of a loving marriage, not in a one night stand or getting laid way.


jafar when the god you worship admits to having taken a 6 year old to be his wife but he was a real sport and waited until she was 9 to have sex with her it kind of makes a lot of what this woman said tame as for why am I listening to her it seems everything that I did google came back with her answers , I am interested in your version of it because no I dont know enough to form a accurate opinion but I must say I am with out a doubt leaning to the point of her side

See? This is why you shouldn't get your information from such people. Mohamed (saw) is not our God, and we do not worship him. Allah = God. There is only one God according to our scripture and indeed according to the Bible (both parts). We love Mohamed as a Prophet only just as we love Jesus as a Prophet, and Moses, Adam, Abraham etc...

I have already dealt with Mohamed's (saw) marriage to Aisha in a few threads here.

In a nutshell....

As was the custom of the time mostly with nobility and royals, girls were betrothed and married off at a very early age in comparison with standards of today. You can google plenty of examples of European Kings, Queens and Princes who had similarly young brides around the same time. Such young marriages were often done to cement relations between noble families. Likewise, Mohamed's (saw) marriage to Aisha brought Abu Bakr's (her father) and Mohamed's (saw) families closer together.

When you look at it like that, you simply cannot judge common customs of 1400+ years ago by 21st century standards. Today we wouldn't nor would we need to marry our daughters off to unite the clans.


I'm afraid you're wasting your time with these verses as it'll just be denied as it has the last 30 times I've posted it as well - even though people still die all the time for apostasy within Islam and there are converts who speak out all the time, who had to hide in fear and move or face death. The actual deaths, which are never ending, and the verses and such posted will ALL be denied as non-Muslims, radicals and "no worldly punishment for apostasy" even though it's written and happens all the time.

As I explained at length before in other threads, there are hadiths that mention death for apostasy but if you know anything about them, the death sentences were not for apostasy alone. They were for high treason. You can quote them and give your opinion until you are blue in the face. It doesn't change what they mean and it seems you haven't learned a thing I have taught you about them.

[Jeff]

I have no idea where she got that from. Homosexuality is a great sin in Islam. Even heterosexual anal sex is forbidden. Another example of how twisted this woman is.
Tell me why anyone is listening to this nonsense?



It doesn't have to be lies. Anyone can lie in public and that's fine but when so much hate is expelled like this, it can and does incite others to violence.



If you study Islam, you can immediately see the difference between ancient customs and Islam.

One example is FGM, a practise that pre dates Islam and even Christianity. Is performed by Christians, Muslims, Animists and other religions mostly in Africa, yet the only ones vilified for doing it are the ones who happen to be Muslims. Perhaps because the forces with the anti Islam agenda are better funded and organised?



Sorry. You asked for the bit in part one, 7mins 4seconds in. It wasn't long enough.




Not sure where you got that from so let us look at what the Qur'aan says.
There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. (2:256)

To start, there is no forcing you to believe.
Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way. (4:176)

If there is a death penalty for leaving Islam, what is this verse doing there? This describes someone who leaves several times without being killed the first time.Now, what about the penalty of disbelief? There are consequences in the afterlife.Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place! (18:29)

Anti Islam campaigners often (mis)quote the Hadith where Mohamed (saw) apparently says "Kill whoever changes his religion" which has only one person in the chain of transmission and is unverified which makes it a very weak Hadith so it cannot be used to formulate a position in Sharia. This is why you shouldn't get your information about Islam from hate sites, and anti Islam campaigners for the simple reason that they have no idea what they are talking about.[/B]Do you understand what it means by "fields"? I loaded some other translations into Zekr Qur'aan software. The Sahih international translation makes what I said before a little clearer.
Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish (2:223)Wives are for having babies with. This is common sense. The second part basically gives permission to have (vaginal) sex in any way you both enjoy it. Standing, sitting, "doggy style", or plain old missionary. Remember, this is all in the context of a loving marriage, not in a one night stand or getting laid way.See? This is why you shouldn't get your information from such people. Mohamed (saw) is not our God, and we do not worship him. Allah = God. There is only one God according to our scripture and indeed according to the Bible (both parts). We love Mohamed as a Prophet only just as we love Jesus as a Prophet, and Moses, Adam, Abraham etc...

I have already dealt with Mohamed's (saw) marriage to Aisha in a few threads here.

In a nutshell....

As was the custom of the time mostly with nobility and royals, girls were betrothed and married off at a very early age in comparison with standards of today. You can google plenty of examples of European Kings, Queens and Princes who had similarly young brides around the same time. Such young marriages were often done to cement relations between noble families. Likewise, Mohamed's (saw) marriage to Aisha brought Abu Bakr's (her father) and Mohamed's (saw) families closer together.

When you look at it like that, you simply cannot judge common customs of 1400+ years ago by 21st century standards. Today we wouldn't nor would we need to marry our daughters off to unite the clans.



As I explained at length before in other threads, there are hadiths that mention death for apostasy but if you know anything about them, the death sentences were not for apostasy alone. They were for high treason. You can quote them and give your opinion until you are blue in the face. It doesn't change what they mean and it seems you haven't learned a thing I have taught you about them.

jafar I do appreciate ya posting this and yes I see there are two sides of the coin, at this point I dont by no means think of you as what I had envisioned Muslims to be, I know there are Black folks in this country ( I had a childhood friend that was Muslim ) and I couldn't see him doing or believing in any of this but I also couldn't see him flying a plane into a crowded building in the name of Allah, it seems like there are different interpretations of the Koran and maybe that is where I need to look more , so no you didn't convert me:laugh: ( but I am sure ya wernt trying ) but I do appreciate ya trying to explain

[jimnyc]

As I explained at length before in other threads, there are hadiths that mention death for apostasy but if you know anything about them, the death sentences were not for apostasy alone. They were for high treason. You can quote them and give your opinion until you are blue in the face. It doesn't change what they mean and it seems you haven't learned a thing I have taught you about them.

And yet the verses shown to you here DO NOT show them as separate, but punishment for it alone. And please don't worry about teaching me, I'm not Islamic and none of my family is. I think the teaching should go to the Islamic people who translated those verses (Yes, I can provide SEVERAL places by prominent Islamic people where the same verses are translated in the same manner), and also to the TONS of people who actually follow those verses and look to kill those who attempt to or successfully leave/convert from Islam. Like I said, you can keep telling me you know better - but these verses somehow keep coming out there from Islamic people, and Islamic people are still dying for apostasy, and former Muslims are still continually telling stories of death and fear of death because they left the faith.

[jafar00]

jafar I do appreciate ya posting this and yes I see there are two sides of the coin, at this point I dont by no means think of you as what I had envisioned Muslims to be, I know there are Black folks in this country ( I had a childhood friend that was Muslim ) and I couldn't see him doing or believing in any of this but I also couldn't see him flying a plane into a crowded building in the name of Allah, it seems like there are different interpretations of the Koran and maybe that is where I need to look more , so no you didn't convert me:laugh: ( but I am sure ya wernt trying ) but I do appreciate ya trying to explain

There isn't a single verse in the Qur'aan to support flying planes into buildings, killing innocents or blowing yourself up. Quite the contrary actually.

And don't worry that I'm trying to convert you. If I can at the very least, do something to counter the lies and black propaganda that is directed at Muslims by helping someone understand Islam better and hate people like me less, I have achieved something good! :)


And yet the verses shown to you here DO NOT show them as separate, but punishment for it alone. And please don't worry about teaching me, I'm not Islamic and none of my family is. I think the teaching should go to the Islamic people who translated those verses (Yes, I can provide SEVERAL places by prominent Islamic people where the same verses are translated in the same manner), and also to the TONS of people who actually follow those verses and look to kill those who attempt to or successfully leave/convert from Islam. Like I said, you can keep telling me you know better - but these verses somehow keep coming out there from Islamic people, and Islamic people are still dying for apostasy, and former Muslims are still continually telling stories of death and fear of death because they left the faith.

I missed the part where any verse of the Qur'aan calls for the death penalty for leaving Islam. Care to point it out?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

There isn't a single verse in the Qur'aan to support flying planes into buildings, killing innocents or blowing yourself up. Quite the contrary actually.

And don't worry that I'm trying to convert you. If I can at the very least, do something to counter the lies and black propaganda that is directed at Muslims by helping someone understand Islam better and hate people like me less, I have achieved something good! :)



I missed the part where any verse of the Qur'aan calls for the death penalty for leaving Islam. Care to point it out? Has already been given but you refuse to acknowledge it. Are you out and about murdering people in the name of Islam? NO, THEN I DO NOT HATE YOU. Those that are I dearly hate and recognize as my enemies and the enemies of this great nation. Trust me on this, nobody in their right mind wants to be my enemy. When stirred to action I'm not a gentle soul. I let my Indian blood take over until the fight is finished. After that I can look down at the guy and think, damn he shouldn't have messed with the wrong guy. I guess he has now learned that lesson! After well over 40 years of practicing that I am convinced of its effectiveness. Yes, it comes with a price but I've paid that price all my life and will do so until I die. Islam should fear me!!!!! No false bravado . A fact that will be found out when/if the "shat hits the fan" here. -Tyr

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2013/03/04/senior-cleric-for-american-muslim-group-islamic-punishment-for-apostasy-is-death/


Dr. Hatem al-Haj, a senior committee member for the Assembly of Muslim Jurists of America (AMJA), confirmed in the below fatwa from July 2011 that the Islamic punishment for apostasy is death.

But the ruling in the shari’a is death for men (who commit apostasy) according to all four (mainstream) schools (of Islamic jurisprudence). It is the same punishment for women according to most of the schools, but according to the Hanafis it is only imprisonment. This is according to the sayings of the Prophet (PBUH): “Whoever changed his religion, kill him”; and also, “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim man who testifies that there is no god but Allah and that I am Allah’s apostle, except for one of the following three: a murderer, an adulterer, and one who leaves his religion and separates himself from the community.”

Let me guess... he's not 'really' Islamic, right Jahil?

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/12/gore-current-silent-as-cleric-affirms-apostacy-death-penalty-on-al-jazeera/


Western critics of Islam highlighted a recent broadcast (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=917pAS-Ccjs&list=UUsgTzOZfsyosq4j9qVi3YWg&index=3) of the network’s regular “Shariah and Life” show, which has an estimated audience of 60 million viewers worldwide.

The show’s host is Yusuf al-Qaradawi, a prominent Sunni Islamic cleric.
He declared that Islam’s mandated death-penalty for apostasy has kept Islam alive since the 1400s. “If they had gotten rid of the apostasy punishment Islam wouldn’t exist today,” Qaradawi said on the show.

Qaradawi cited specific verses and narrations by Islam’s prophet, Muhammad, and the recorded testimony of his companions, that mandate the death penalty for anyone who tries to leave Islam.

“Surah Al-Ma’idah 5:33 says: ‘The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle is that they should be murdered or crucified,’” Qaradawi quoted on his show.

“And many hadiths, not only one or two, but many, narrated by a number of Muhammad’s companions state that any apostate should be killed. Ibn ‘Abbas’s hadith: ‘Kill whomever changes his faith [from Islam].’”

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://weaselzippers.us/2011/11/08/egypt-muslim-cleric-says-the-penalty-for-apostasy-is-death-only-boozers-and-druggies-say-otherwise/


But you should know that Islam is a religion that has limitations and rulings. One of its established rulings, upon which all scholars unanimously agree, is that whoever enters Islam voluntarily, not forcibly — it is not permissible for him to apostatize from Islam. If he does that, the ruling upon him is death.

[jafar00]

Has already been given but you refuse to acknowledge it. Are you out and about murdering people in the name of Islam? NO, THEN I DO NOT HATE YOU. Those that are I dearly hate and recognize as my enemies and the enemies of this great nation. Trust me on this, nobody in their right mind wants to be my enemy. When stirred to action I'm not a gentle soul. I let my Indian blood take over until the fight is finished. After that I can look down at the guy and think, damn he shouldn't have messed with the wrong guy. I guess he has now learned that lesson! After well over 40 years of practicing that I am convinced of its effectiveness. Yes, it comes with a price but I've paid that price all my life and will do so until I die. Islam should fear me!!!!! No false bravado . A fact that will be found out when/if the "shat hits the fan" here. -Tyr

Where has the evidence been given? I read the Qur'aan daily and I have studied it for many years. I have also done basic studies in Hadith. There is nothing anywhere to support the death penalty for apostasy alone and even if you use the weak hadiths at face value in English, the Qur'aan directly opposes that position. When the Qur'aan says differently to a hadith, the Qur'aan takes precedence.


http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/2013/03/04/senior-cleric-for-american-muslim-group-islamic-punishment-for-apostasy-is-death/

A fatwa is a non binding opinion, not law. That fatwa has since been retracted and removed from his website. The Sheikh also had the following to say about a question from someone married to a man who went apostate.


I am a Muslim woman and my husband used to be Muslim, yet, has became convinced of strange beliefs and started to propagate them.
He says it is not mandatory for any one to subscribe to the religion of Islam, that the five daily prayers are not mandatory, and that a Muslim may instead say “Allah” inside his heart. He, also, claims to be an assistant of “al-Mahdi”, as well as other false beliefs. I, as well as other Muslims from the community, have tirelessly advised him and invited him to repent. He insists to follow his new ways. And it has been years now. At present, he is on a business trip overseas, and is expected to be back here to live with me in the home we share.
Is it permissible for me to maintain this marriage, and to live with him like a wife? Please give me a fatwa.
All Praise be to Allah, and peace and blessings be on His messenger. To proceed:
We ask Allah for this sister to be rewarded greatly in goodness and keep her firm in Islam and make her up for her loss .We, also, say to this sister that her husband, according
to his new beliefs, has became an apostate, particularly that he has been advised by the
sister and others, yet insists to follow his new path.
A Muslim woman may not stay married to an apostate husband, and she may not let him touch her, by the consensus of the scholars for Allah said:
(يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِذَا جَاءَكُمُ الْمُؤْمِنَاتُ مُهَاجِرَاتٍ فَامْتَحِنُوهُنَّ اللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِإِيمَانِهِنَّ فَإِنْ عَلِمْتُمُوهُنَّ مُؤْمِنَاتٍ فَلا تَرْجِعُوهُنَّ إِلَى الْكُفَّارِ لا هُنَّ حِلٌّ لَهُمْ وَلا هُمْ يَحِلُّونَ لَهُنَّ ) (الممتحنة: 10)
“O ye who believe! When there come to you believing women refugees, examine (and test) them: Allah knows best as to their Faith: if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them.” (Quran 60-10)
Imam al-Shafe’ey said in his book “al-Umm”: “if the married couple were in any land, that of Islam, or that of war, and one of them apostatized, then our decree here is similar to the case in which a married couple who are pagans in case one of them becomes Muslim, the marriage is annulled & the rest of the secondary rulings all apply……and I found in the decree of Allah Blessed & most high the prohibition of giving in marriage Muslim women to polytheists & the prohibition of Muslim men marrying pagan women …and I found that when one of the married couple apostatizes, martial relations become forbidden, so a disbeliever may not have sex with a believing woman …and if the man apostatized after having sex with his wife then he should be prevented from approaching her again ,and when her waiting period expires before he returns to Islam, the marriage would be considered annulled:”
Based on the above statement, this sister must do the following:
(1). Treat her husband like a foreign man, and not let him touch her or be alone with her.
(2). Start counting her waiting period (which is three menstrual periods for those who menstruate); and she should begin from the day she receives this fatwa or any similar fatwa from an Islamic center…etc.
(3). If her husband returned to Islam, she may go back to him as a wife based on their previous contract, and they don’t have to re-marry so long as he does that before her waiting period ends.
(4). If her waiting period ends and he has not returned to Islam she would be entitled,
Islamically, to marry another Muslim. She also has the right to wait for her previous husband in hopes that Allah may guide him one day and she may return to him. In the case that this happens, it would be better to initiate a new marriage contract, although some scholars maintain that their original contract suffices, yet as long as she is waiting for him, she should continue to treat him like a foreign man and not let him touch her.
(5). We recommend to the sister to continue her supplication for her husband that Allah may guide him, and to continue to invite him to Islam (without being alone with him),this may be done by writing, or over the phone, or giving him books and tapes, or arranging for meetings between him and scholars of Islam to advise him.
All of this given that she has enough faith and knowledge to protect herself from his suspicions, yet if she fears for herself that he may sway her away from her religion and make her doubt her beliefs , and she can’t rebuttal him, then we recommend to her to completely abandon him.
We, also, recommend to the sister in case she was interested in marrying someone else after her period ends that she go through the appropriate legal actions to terminate the first marriage before getting married again.
Finally, we recommend to the sister: patience and sincerity; and we ask Allah Most High to deliver you out of your hardship, and make all of your affairs easy.
And All Praise Be To Allah
- See more at: http://www.drhatemalhaj.com/qa/index.php/2011/04/02/apostacy-of-husband/#sthash.vP9AQIk7.dpuf

Not a single mention that the apostate husband should be put to death.

Either the fatwa was false, or he made further study and found that he was wrong. It has since been removed from his website.

Besides, as I already quoted from the Qur'aan..

Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way. (4:137)

All other argument is moot.

No penalty at all let alone death for leaving Islam. That is very clear even in English. Other translations concur too....


<tbody>
[yusufali] Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- Allah will not forgive them nor guide them nor guide them on the way.

[en.ahmedali] Those who accept the faith, then disbelieve, then return to it, and deny once again and increase in disbelief, will not be forgiven by God or be guided by Him

[en.maududi] Allah will neither forgive nor show the right way to those who believed, and then disbelieved, then believed, and again disbelieved, and thenceforth became ever more intense in their disbelief.

[en.shakir] Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

[en.sahih] Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.

[en.asad] Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of the truth - God will not forgive them, nor will He guide them in any way.

[en.arberry] Those who believe, and then disbelieve, and then believe, and then disbelieve, and then increase in unbelief-God is not likely to forgive them, neither to guide them on any way.


</tbody>
I'm sorry you still believe there is a death penalty for apostasy alone despite such a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

[jimnyc]

Jafar, as far as to what I wrote, it wasn't in the Quran but rather in the Hadith's, as quoted with specifics on the first page. These EXACT translations are at other places, translated by leading scholars, and shows apostasy ALONE can meet the death sentence. If you won't accept this from, Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, I will happily give you further links.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?41866-Ann-Barnhardt-Islamic-Sexuality-A-survey-of-evil&p=653194#post653194

[jimnyc]

Once again, from Tyr's link on the Hadith's:

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #37

"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....

In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reversers from Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:

"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Once again, from Tyr's link on the Hadith's:

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #37

"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....

In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reversers from Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:

"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said Thanks Jim , I was about to repost these in answer to Jafar. His rebuttal needs to show the error of these as this was presented and has been presented several times before at this forum by you and others too. If he can not adequately show how and why this evidence is voided then his assertion is wrong! Additionally he should explain why it's currently a policy to issue death sentences upon apostates in just about all muslim controlled nations , even if not ALL. Can he explain how/why so many millions of muslims believe, embrace and endorse the death penalty for apostasy? Thanks again for reposting the clear evidence of Islam decreeing the death penalty to apostates. -Tyr

[jafar00]

Once again, from Tyr's link on the Hadith's:

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #37

"Narrated Abu Qilaba: Once Umar bin Abdul Aziz sat on his throne in the courtyard of his house so that the people might gather before him....He replied "By Allah, Allah's messenger never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: 1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) 2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and, 3) a man who fought against Allah and His messenger, and deserted Islam and became an apostate....

In Chapter 2, from "The Book of obliging the Reversers from Islam, page 42, (following Hadith #56) it reads:

"The legal regulation concerning the male and the female who reverts from Islam (apostates). Ibn Umar Az-Zuhri and Ibrahim said, "A female apostate (who reverts from Islam), should be killed. And the obliging of the reverts from Islam to repent Allah said

You know I have Tyr and others on ignore.

He probably got his explanation of these from some anti Islamic website.

I will give you some more refutations that death is the penalty for apostasy alone from http://thedistortedreligion.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/apostasy-in-islam-%E2%80%93-part-viii-opinion-of-modern-islamic-scholars/


Shaikh Mahmud Shaltut
“Mahmud Shaltut analyses the relevant evidence in the Qur’an and draws the conclusion thatapostasy carries no temporal penalty, and that in reference to this particular sin, the Qur’an speaks only of punishment in the hereafter …”
Shaikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi
“Shaykh Tantawi’s ruling on the subject of a Muslim apostasizing has certainly shed new light on this subject, while making the non-Muslims realise that Islam is a religion of moderation. To Shaykh Tantawi, a Muslim who renounced his faith or turned apostate should be left alone as long as he does not pose a threat or belittle Islam. If the Muslims were forced to take action against the apostate, he said it should NOT be because he or she had given up the faith but because he or she had turned out to be an enemy or a threat to Islam. Shaykh Tantawi, in his views, shows clearly how simple and moderate Islam is, a religion that is tolerant and not coercive on anybody. Shaykh Tantawi repeatedly stresses the need for Muslims to acquire traditional Islamic knowledge as well as the modern ones so that they could add to the strength of the Muslim community to defend the religion.”
Ayatollah Murtadha Mutahari
The late Ayatollah Mutahhari highlighted the incompatibility of coercion with the spirit of Islam, and the basic redundancy of punitive measures in the propagation of its message. He wrote that it is impossible to force anyone to acquire the kind of faith that is required by Islam, just as ‘it is not possible to spank a child into solving an arithmetical problem. His mind and thought must be left free in order that he may solve it. The Islamic faith is something of this kind.
Maulana Inayatullah Asad Subhani
And there is no bigger misconception-strengthened with misinterpretation of Islamic thoughts over the years-other than the belief that Islam doesn’t tolerate apostasy. Ulama have tried to strengthen it through their emphasis and several leading Muslim reformists have failed to tackle the issue. This misconception has also presented Islam as a medieval and killer religion. Islam baiters have time and again tried to carry the point by pointing out that Islam orders the killing of a person if he reverts to other religion from Islam.
And there was none who could answer this widely held belief as well as put forth a convincing argument about the misinterpretation of Qur’anic teachings by ulama.
Inayatullah Subhani says that neither Islam forces any person to embrace Islam nor it forces him to remain within its fold. He writes ‘apostasy has been mentioned several times in Qur’an. It also describes the bad treatment that will be meted out for committing apostasy, but it never talks of punishment for the crime in this world.’ Maulana mentions three ayaat (verses) from Qur’an on apostasy (Al-Baqara 217, Muhammad 25-27 and Al-Maida 54 )and then says that none of these ayaat prescribes any punishment for that though these ayaat pass strictures on the people who commit it. He mentions several other ayaat on the same issue and then concludes that none of these ayat prescribes either death penalty or any other punishment for apostasy in this world. He then adds that had there been some punishment in Islam for apostasy there was no reason as to why the issue was mentioned repeatedly in Qur’an but no punishment was prescribed.
He emphasizes that people who were awarded death penalty for reverting to other religions from Islam during either the time of the Prophet (SAW) or during the reign of his caliphs were not given the punishment for the crime of apostasy but for the fact that they were at war with Muslims and Islamic government.


And finally please read this. It is the same as I have been saying all along. Even if the above Hadiths were strong enough to be used as a source for Sharia Law, they still go against what is in the Qur'aan and so cannot be used to create a death penalty for apostasy alone.


Javed Ahmed Ghamidi
“Instead of interpreting the Hadith in the light of the relationship between the Qur’an and Hadith, they [the jurists]have interpreted it in the absolute sense, totally against the context of the Qur’an. Consequently, in their opinion the verdict pronounced in the Hadith has a general and an unconditional application. They have thereby incorporated in the Islamic Penal Code a punishment which has no basis in the Shari‘ah.”


Any quote you have from a scholar suggesting that apostasy carries a death penalty is explained by the fact that they may not have separated the apostasy from treason. It is for the treason that they got the death penalty, not from the apostasy such as when in the early times, someone left the Muslims and joined an enemy, then actively plotted against the Muslims and Mohamed (saw).

From the verses of the Qur'aan alone, there is no penalty in this world for apostasy and not even 1000 hadiths saying there is a death penalty can override the Qur'aan. And neither can you.

[jimnyc]

From the verses of the Qur'aan alone, there is no penalty in this world for apostasy and not even 1000 hadiths saying there is a death penalty can override the Qur'aan. And neither can you.

I know it's not in the Quran, I know I can't override that. But here's the thing - it IS in the Hadith's and it DOES happen all the time. What you're saying is akin to saying there are speeding laws, and nothing allows for speeding, and having us believe that therefore speeding doesn't occur.

My point from the beginning is that it IS in writing, it DOES happen, and a LOT and MANY support it and place it as part of Sharia law in quite a few areas, whether you agree with it or not.

[jafar00]

I know it's not in the Quran, I know I can't override that. But here's the thing - it IS in the Hadith's and it DOES happen all the time. What you're saying is akin to saying there are speeding laws, and nothing allows for speeding, and having us believe that therefore speeding doesn't occur.

My point from the beginning is that it IS in writing, it DOES happen, and a LOT and MANY support it and place it as part of Sharia law in quite a few areas, whether you agree with it or not.

You don't understand that nothing can override the Qur'aan. If a Hadith is in opposition, the Qur'aan must take precedence. This is a very basic thing that every Muslim understands.

The only reason those Hadiths (which are weak) can be used in law is if the penalty is not for apostasy alone, but for apostasy in combination with high treason which is backed up by other studies, related Hadiths and Qur'aan verses.

I know you say it happens anyway and if it does, I would be the first to condemn it. The death penalty for apostasy has no place in any Sharia ruling and if such a ruling exists, it is not from Islam.

There is no Sharia penalty in this world for apostasy from Islam.

[jimnyc]

You don't understand that nothing can override the Qur'aan. If a Hadith is in opposition, the Qur'aan must take precedence. This is a very basic thing that every Muslim understands.

The only reason those Hadiths (which are weak) can be used in law is if the penalty is not for apostasy alone, but for apostasy in combination with high treason which is backed up by other studies, related Hadiths and Qur'aan verses.

I know you say it happens anyway and if it does, I would be the first to condemn it. The death penalty for apostasy has no place in any Sharia ruling and if such a ruling exists, it is not from Islam.

There is no Sharia penalty in this world for apostasy from Islam.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "every" Muslim understands this, as the loads of people who die every year, and the loads who go into hiding, and the loads who escape where they are living, would likely disagree with you. And I know you'll eventually say this is not a Muslim thing, but rather just bad people - but I'm willing to bet that well over 95% of deaths yearly for one leaving their faith is in the Islamic world. It's just another violent thing within the Islamic world that simply CANNOT be ignored simply because it's not in the Quran.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You don't understand that nothing can override the Qur'aan. If a Hadith is in opposition, the Qur'aan must take precedence. This is a very basic thing that every Muslim understands.

The only reason those Hadiths (which are weak) can be used in law is if the penalty is not for apostasy alone, but for apostasy in combination with high treason which is backed up by other studies, related Hadiths and Qur'aan verses.

I know you say it happens anyway and if it does, I would be the first to condemn it. The death penalty for apostasy has no place in any Sharia ruling and if such a ruling exists, it is not from Islam.

There is no Sharia penalty in this world for apostasy from Islam.

Un;ess of course the passage doesn't support you, in which case you claim it doesn't apply today.

Dumb ass.

[jafar00]

I wouldn't go as far as to say "every" Muslim understands this, as the loads of people who die every year, and the loads who go into hiding, and the loads who escape where they are living, would likely disagree with you. And I know you'll eventually say this is not a Muslim thing, but rather just bad people - but I'm willing to bet that well over 95% of deaths yearly for one leaving their faith is in the Islamic world. It's just another violent thing within the Islamic world that simply CANNOT be ignored simply because it's not in the Quran.

When was the last time someone was killed by an established government body for converting? Leaving aside Saudi Arabia and Iran (Their deviance leaves no stone unturned) you will probably only find murders done by vigilante and rogue groups like the Taliban or one of the groups that say they are Al Qaeda linked.

[Marcus Aurelius]

When was the last time someone was killed by an established government body for converting? Leaving aside Saudi Arabia and Iran (Their deviance leaves no stone unturned) you will probably only find murders done by vigilante and rogue groups like the Taliban or one of the groups that say they are Al Qaeda linked.

Oh, for fuck sake. Now it has to be 'an established government boy' for it to matter or even exist to you?

Please, do us all a favor... go to a Muslim nation, convert to Christianity... and tell us how that goes for you.

Dumb ass.

[aboutime]

Oh, for fuck sake. Now it has to be 'an established government boy' for it to matter or even exist to you?

Please, do us all a favor... go to a Muslim nation, convert to Christianity... and tell us how that goes for you.

Dumb ass.


Marcus. That jafar question is just another of the typical tactics they use to distract attention, and change the subject. Whenever they insert another question without bothering to answer other questions first.
That means. They (jafar) has no intention of ever answering. At least not as long as he is able to distract, and get your attention off of the other questions.
It's a long established, liberal kind of game they always play. Whenever asked a question that will expose their lies. Instantly ask another question to change the subject, and make them forget what the first...unanswered question you were asked.

One other way of describing it is....DISHONESTY.