Arab World, or America - who needs to change? [Archive] - Debate Policy

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jimnyc

06-30-2013, 07:06 PM

Alik Bahshi

06-30-2013, 11:55 PM

This debate emanated from a thread started by Alik, about "America needs change". Voted4Reagan then soon requested a one on one debate with Alik, which he accepted.

Alik will go first, and I suppose give his opening argument as to why he thinks America needs to change. Then Voted4Reagan will be second, and can give his opening argument, and also start a rebuttal to Alik's post. Each member will make a post, and then the next, back and forth until each member as made 7 posts apiece. I just chose the number at random, so as not to have the debate turn into repeating posts forever. And I know people have lives, but let's try to get in at least one post apiece per day!

At the conclusion, I will place a poll at the top of the thread for everyone to vote on. In addition to that, we can also grant V4R's request to have certain members judge the outcome - myself, Logroller, Tyr Ziu Saxnot, fj1200 and I'm adding Abbey in as the last judge. Neither is "official" as this is just for fun!

The opponents should use facts, links, sources and put some effort into it, and of course keep the flames/fighting out. These will likely be major factors in deciding who made a more convincing argument.

** Reminder - this is to remain just between these two. Nobody else should be replying in this thread. Any replies outside of these 2 will be deleted and the offender will be banned from this section of the board. **

You're up, Alik!!
1. For many years, America was involved in the Arab-Israeli conflict, which does not give any advantage. All recent U.S. presidents, understanding it take effort to stop the conflict, but are afraid of the Jewish lobby, so the main efforts are being made at the end of his term in office presidency. (See "Late Flowers", http://www.proza.ru/2008/03/23/512)
2. America must understand that Russia has a colonial empire and the beginnings of democracy, Putin is rolling and if America follows the same approach to totalitarian regimes, and then in a relationship with Russia must be clearly determined not to help Russia to get stronger again. Why America has helped Bosnia when Serbia wanted independence, and Russia's military action against the Chechen people closed her eyes? But the situation was the same! This is a consequence of the policy of double standards. Now Russia is stepping up pressure on Azerbaijan strengthens its fleet in the Caspian Sea and a new conflict is brewing (this is I have an article that later will place) and the United States should maintain adequate policies and not venturing unnecessary wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and deprived of support in the confrontation with Russia.

More arguments I have brought all this in the article, "America needs to change" because of which the beginning of this debate.

"Late Flowers"

Predict, especially for the near future - a thankless task. But try, for the upcoming conference in Annapolis, which Bush wants to drive the Israelis and Palestinians, is of particular interest in terms of the last final Mistake American president.

It's no secret that the key solution to the Palestinian problem, however, as the Arab-Israeli conflict, is in the walls of the White House and this - a headache, literally, for each of its owner. To solve the problem - is to force Israel to withdraw from all the occupied territories, which no doubt will cause great indignation of the Jewish lobby in Congress and across this situation you do not want any American president, especially at the beginning of the cadence. Therefore, as a rule, the U.S. president at the end of the term, more to clear my conscience, begin to pursue an active policy in terms of pressure on Israel to persuade Israel to leave the occupied territories. Of all the presidents of the greatest urgency to partial returns showed Clinton, Israeli Arabs, but the murder of Jewish terrorist, Prime Minister Rabin and "on time" dragged out of the safe unfortunate dress Monica Lewinsky negated his good intentions for peace in the Middle East.
Bush, became the master of the White House in the midst of the Palestinian intifada. Rejecting any possibility of a meeting with Arafat, he remained a bystander bloody drama played out. Inaction American military ally of Israel and was the cause of the Arab attack on America.
Since then, Bush begins to act, that is to make mistakes. Hoping to catch Bin Laden, the Americans invaded Afghanistan and smash tallibov that the Israeli-Arab conflict, and if relevant, it is very symbolic and they know where bin Laden is hiding, it would have long since passed him to stay in power. Not finding Bin Laden, Bush takes his anger on Saddam Hussein, the only leader who did not express regret over the tragedy of September 11 and, moreover, suggested that America was punished by God for its aggressive policy.
After hanging instead of Bin Laden Saddam, the sworn enemy of Tehran obscurantist, Bush is so stuck in the sands of the Middle East, which were actually quicksand, the more America makes gestures the more immersed, losing any chance of achieving ... and already knows what.
And now, after a series of political miscalculations, after nearly eight years as president, when the license expires annually, and in real terms, and even less, Bush beginning to address the main problem, the main reasons for the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, namely the Arab- Israeli conflict. In advance we can say that this is good, but too belated idea is doomed, like all the previous ones, to fail. Here there is also the factor of time and the ultimate goals of complete uncertainty of the forthcoming conference, and haste says only one thing - the absolute political illiteracy Bush and all of today's White House administration. Of course Bush could alienate (the Jewish lobby in Congress do not have time to respond), and "twisting arms" into signing the final piece of paper that the two sides back to the promised land, used for its intended purpose. And by the time the baton "headache" go to the next president of America, who traditionally begin preparing bouquet of the world by the end of his term. And for those flowers belated American people are paying the price, because the union of America with Israel no positive component does not have, and creates a huge problem, both in economic terms and in the field of security. 10.11.07.

Voted4Reagan

07-01-2013, 07:18 AM

In this my opening statement I would like to welcome my opponent, the moderators and all those who will judge us.

Why the Arab world must change...

Ladies and gentleman... When we look at the world today we see a world in turmoil,. We see a world stuck in what seems to be a self perpetuating cycle of violence.

Or is it?

My opponent says that America must change. I contend that from the days of the original colonial settlers in Jamestown, Virginia we have changed. We have been changing for going on 400 years.

America Started as a Colonial possession of the British Empire and change into the beacon of freedom everyone in the world sees today.

We started out weak, we are now strong. We originally had Slavery, we abolished it. We Broke in half during the Civil War and brought a shattered country back together after the nightmare of our Civil War.

We have survived Wars, Political Scandals, Segregation and Terrorist attacks on our country that killed thousands of of our people. and what have we done? We have always Moved forward and CHANGED.

But...My opponent says that it is America that must change even more. I will submit to all of you that America is ALWAYS changing but it is in fact the Arab world that needs to change.

Since Christopher Columbus discovered the "NEW WORLD" in 1492, We as "AMERICANS" have progressed from an Agrarian based society and Hunter/Gatherers to the worlds leader in Technology in a post industrial society. and we did it in a little bit over 500 years.

The Arab World since 1492 has done little to advance itself. If anything it has remained stagnant in many areas and declined in others. It is imperative that the Muslim/Arab world change in the following areas in order to become contributing members of the world we live in.

The areas they need to change the most are in my opinion as follows:

1. Education - There are 1.4 Billion Muslims in the world today. Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illitera2te (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read)(1). Of the 57 Muslim Majority countries in the world today their are less then 600 universities worldwide to accommodate 1.4 billion people. India with over 1 billion people has over 8000, the United States with just 300 million people has almost 6000. In most Muslim countries women are not permitted to receive an education. Translations of foreign books into Arabic is almost non-existent. Spain translates an average of 10,000 books a year into Spanish. That is more then the Arab world has translated in the last 1000 years! (2)

2. Human Rights - The term Human rights is almost unheard of in the Muslim/Arab world. Most Muslim/Arabic Countries are ruled by Hereditary Monarchical leaders or by Dictators that make all the decisions for everyone. Women are accorded second class status in most Arab/Muslim countries, are not allowed to vote or do many of the things men are permitted to do without fear of arrest, beatings, imprisonment and even death. They in many circumstances are not permitted to work, own property and have lesser standing in the eyes of the law. This would be unheard of here in The United States!

3. Freedom of Religion - In the Arab World there is no Freedom of Religion. You must practice Islam or face the possibility of being charged with Apostacy. The Penalties for which are Arrest, Imprisonment and even Death. Islam and the Muslim world restricts even allowing people of Jewish Birth to travel within their countries. Israeli passports are accepted in only a few Muslim Majority States and most Arab/Muslim states refuse to acknowledge the existence of the state of Israel! Christians, Jews and other non-believers of Islam are accorded second class status and are routinely harassed, attacked and Murdered because they choose not to renounce their faiths and practice Islam. The Muslim world has allowed Islam to become the Religion mandated by the Government. Here in America our Constitution MANDATES that the government is not allowed to mandate or establish a religion sponsored by the state. We are free to worship as we see fit. Muslims are not. You can not convert to Christianity in a country where Islam is the religion of the state.

These are a few of the things that must change in the Arab/Muslim world. I would like my esteemed opponent in this debate to address the following question in his reply.

Why do the Muslim/Arabic Countries deny people fundamental rights such as access to a quality education, Deny them basic human rights, hold women as lesser individuals then men and why is Islam the only allowable religion?

Show us Alik Bahshi how as you claim it to be that America must change and not the Arab/Muslim world.

From what I see the Arab Muslim world already lags far behind the western countries.

Your turn sir...

Cited Sources:

1. Dr Farrukh Saleem - What went wrong? (http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://web.archive.org/web/20051129011120/http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/nov2005-daily/08-11-2005/oped/o6.htm&date=2012-08-14) - The News International, November 8, 2005

2. Rima Khalaf Hunaidi, Abdel Latif Youssef El Hamed, Nader Fergany - Arab Human Development Report 2002 (http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://www.un.org/Pubs/whatsnew/e02175.htm&date=2012-11-27) - United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), ISBN (http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Special:BookSources/9211261473)

Alik Bahshi

07-01-2013, 11:25 AM

As I understand the debate arose under “America needs change ". There I was talking about the change in policy in relation to Russia and theArab-Israeli conflict. Theimpression that you have read only the article title and lead a debate based onthe title of the article without knowing its meaning. I absolutely agree that due to the policy of America, especially during theReagan managed to put the evil empire, called the Soviet Union as ZbigniewBrzezinski, on his knees. America and the world gladly accepted the democratic changes in Russia, but with thecoming to power of Putin all returned back to totalitarianism and unfortunately America did not respond to it properly. Forexample, President Bush called Putin not only as a "friend of Putin."When Putin was destroying the Chechen nation America has closed its eyes, and infact the situation in Chechnya was a replica of the situation in Bosnia. Why America went to war with Serbia? Yes,it was necessary to protect Bosnia from Serbia and America did the right thing here. Of course Russia is not Serbia, but that America has not made any protest toRussia. This is called a policy of double standards.
Further,Article I see American policy in the Middle East region. Iargue that America should put an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict that has been going on for many years due to the fault of America, and all presidents realize that it is time to put things in the world, but are afraid of contact with the Jewish lobby. The appearance in the White House, Obama suggested I predicted what Obama will change American policy in the Middle East, hence the name of the theme,"America needs change." America,supporting Israel's policies, spoils his country as image defender of democracy and justice. I applaud Obama's policies, which have finally decided to change the passivity ofAmerica and force for peace between Arabs and Jews. In these matters, I meant to change the political vector of America.

As for your wishes change of Arab society, it is in recent times it has finally beginning so intense began to emerge, that we observe in several Arab countries. By the way, I want to note that Israel beware of these changes. The fact that the dictator, Bashar al-Assad for example, is more concerned about maintaining the authority and example of his more or less happy with thepreservation of peace with Israel. However, if Syria will come to power people's forces and establish a democracy,or something close to it, then Syriacould increasingly demand the return of the Israeli-occupied territories.
In about, the total backlog in the Arab world from the West, what do you pay attention, and that is not included in the text of my article, "America needs change," I tell you what. Civilization advances are not the same in all the World. So when the Arabs were astronomical calculation, by the way algebra is the word of Arabic origin, as well as chemistry, Europeans went to a club on Forests. In this age of information for which the distances are no longer a hindrance I think the people will not be dramatically different in development, as it was inancient times.

Still, I'd like to debate more specifically on the content of the article, and not of such vast concepts that you invest in change.I repeat it is concerned only with the change of U.S. policy in relation to Russia and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Voted4Reagan

07-01-2013, 12:16 PM

Still, I'd like to debate more specifically on the content of the article, and not of such vast concepts that you invest in change.I repeat it is concerned only with the change of U.S. policy in relation to Russia and the Arab-Israeli conflict.

You accepted the debate on a broader scope my friend... and on a broader scope it shall stay. To pigeon hole this debate on a specific point of a nations sovereign policy provides no answers to what is truly happening in the world today.

The Arab/Muslim world is almost 1000 years behind the West in it's approach to government. There is no Freedom of speech, there is no freedom of religion and Education for anyone but the children of the ruling class is almost non-existent. Religion and Government are intertwined and there is no choice allowed in respect to personal faith. Islam is imposed upon everyone in these countries from their date of birth. There are no options.

Take a look at the West... Why is it that Islam is a Minority religion all Western Countries? Why is it not as popular? Why are Western Countries not as accepting?

It is simple. Islam is roundly and flatly rejected in societies where Education, equal rights, and Freedom of Speech and Religion are established. In Western Societies we value Personal Choice. The right to say what we like, the right to associate with who we like and the right to worship the Faith of our own Choosing.

The Muslim Majority Countries where Islam is the prevalent have the highest percentages of uneducated and subjugated peoples in the world. There is no Choice in this... in Most Muslim Countries you must accept Islam without question. To not do so leads to Arrest and possibly death. This is due to one reason: Islam preys upon the uneducated and the fear of the poor.

In the west we are educated and free to choose in all aspects of our lives, with higher education comes self awareness, an increased sense of self worth, understanding and higher levels of thinking. We become aware of the choices we have and the liberation provided to us by learning. When a person frees their mind they are truly free. Free to do anything they can possibly imagine.

Education sparks creativity, Scientific advancement, advances in art and literature and an increase in the standard of living for the peoples involved. It leads to self reliance and ones desire to have government play a minimal role in our day to day lives. This is NOT true in Muslim Society. The Muslim Majority Countries prefer that their people remain uneducated and uninformed, they keep women subjugated and illiterate, they allow no outside books or ideas and the media is heavily censored to reflect what the state wishes the people to know. They are fed a steady diet of Islam, of intolerance to other cultures, a hatred of Israel and a jealousy of the United States. Muslim people have little access to the Internet and the free flow of information into Muslim Majority countries is heavily Fire Walled.

Why does this happen? Because it is easier to control the uneducated. Islam is a religion of control, it controls all the actions of its peoples lives. In western culture we the people control our day to day lives.. not the Bible, not the Government. WE CONTROL OUR OWN DESTINY.

Islam is failing... You mention Algebra... yes...Algebra was invented in the Muslim world, by the PERSIANS. But that was back in the Renaissance. ALMOST 700 YEARS AGO! That has NO bearing on the Contributions of todays Muslims Countries. What have they done in the last 100 years to contribute to the world? Where are the Nobel prizes? Where are the academic institutions? Where are the Women in Government and the Workplace?

Arab/Muslim culture has been Stagnant for centuries. It can not advance due to it's lack of educational opportunity to the masses. These countries will remain the most backward and poorest in the world till this is resolved.

Muslim countries MUST provided Education to ALL PEOPLE if they are to advance.

Muslim Countries must treat women as 100% Equals in all things if they are to advance.

Muslim Countries must seperate Government from Religion and embrace Secular Agendas if they are to be accepted.

The Islamic Clerics must preach a doctrine of peace and acceptance of ALL PEOPLE. This include all faiths... yes, including the acceptance of Israel and the Jewish Faith. The Clerics must call for an end to the use of Violence and pursue peace.

None of these things are being done... They must be done or the Muslim nations and Islam will be stuck in the 10th Century forever. Eventually they will cease to be relevant and become third world nations again when the Oil runs out.

The Clock is Ticking.

(Your Turn Ali Bahshi)

Alik Bahshi

07-01-2013, 02:12 PM

Well, you went on your theme, "America needs to change" and crossed over to the general backwardness of the Arabs from the West at this time. I agree with you and I see no reason to disagree with you. But then again, I want to note that in ancient times it was the opposite. By the way, the word algebra is of Arab origin, not Persian, as well as chemistry and numbers are called in Arabic. What reasons led to the fact that the Arabs lost the championship West does not know, but I think that the reason is that the Arabs have paid more attention to the spiritual world, and the Europeans - the material to be more pragmatic. I also believe it has also had a negative impact religion - Islam, however, as Christianity in Europe. I see that you are in Islam and see the negative and here I fully agree with you. But I want to add that Christianity as a religion in its time has shed a lot of blood, remember the era of the Crusades, and the opposition of Catholics with Protestants are no better than a war between Sunnis and Shiites. Moreover in Islam there is no compulsion in Islam the idea can not be said about Christianity. Remember how the Spaniards forcibly baptized Native American or the British in Africa and Polynesia. Sorry, but I remember that the two world wars with millions of victims, and with the use of nuclear weapons also came from civilized Europeans. Do not think that I am a believer in any religion in particular, I believe that evil religion that divides people into friends and foes. Especially a lot of evil brought monotheism. Belief in one God was the misfortune to people. When was polytheistic, no religious wars, all lacked the gods, and everything changed with the belief in one God. By the way, democracy originated in the ancient world.

You also began, as I understand, to compare the culture of the West and the East, which I think is pointless. It is, after all, the ideology of racism. In one of the articles I quoted writer V.Grosmana:
"With the insidious ease nationalism of the people loses its noble foundation, he becomes formidable, he becomes a pathetic, not causes, and to humiliate. So trying to prove some kind of disability, a person discovers his own. Some of my interlocutors in all areas of human creativity, especially singled out the Armenian national priority in architecture, science and poetry. They emphasized the superiority of the architectural merits of the temple of Garni over what seemed to them the primitive architecture of the Acropolis: speaking about the poet Tumanyan tried to convince me that the genius of Pushkin's genius Tumanyan above. The bottom line of course is not that there is not a perfect architecture of the architecture of the Acropolis Harney, a genius if Tumanyan than Pushkin, the essence and the essence of course sad, is that poetry, and architecture, science, and history itself, by essentially in the conversations of some of my buddies are no longer meant. They mean only to discover the superiority of the Armenian national character and national character of the other nations. Poetry is not important, but it is important only to prove that the Armenian national poet above example, Russian or French poet. My interlocutors, without noticing that deplete their heart and soul in that ceased to enjoy poetry, architectural excellence, the greatness of science, as seen in poetry and science is only a means to assert their national superiority. This desire is so fanatical, narrow, it seems that the minutes of the manifestation of insanity. "(" Banner ", H.11, 1988)
You like that Armenians are trying to humiliate others, to prove their lack of talent, and bring proof of the level of culture, forgetting that the culture of the ancient world with a civilization that is born in the East.

Voted4Reagan

07-01-2013, 03:39 PM

First off... Algebra ... You are totally wrong...Was not invented by the Arabs... but by the Babylonians who were a part of the Persian Empire in what is currently Modern Day Iraq. And I quote from Wikipedia:

Prehistory of algebra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra

The roots of algebra can be traced to the ancient Babylonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_mathematics),[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra#cite_note-3) who developed an advanced arithmetical system with which they were able to do calculations in an algorithmic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm) fashion. The Babylonians developed formulas to calculate solutions for problems typically solved today by using linear equations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_equation), quadratic equations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_equation), and indeterminate linear equations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_equation).

(End Quote)

Now, back to our discussion...

You have yet to address the original Premise of our debate, You have not illustrated yet what the United States needs to Change. You have gone off on tangents and used your pre-written articles ( LATE FLOWERS in your first post) to make a Vague analogous comparison .

I refute "LATE FLOWERS" as being relevant because you merely copy and pasted it from another of your pre-written essays. How do I know this? The Annapolis Conference was almost 7 years ago. You clearly are NOT debating me and are merely just pushing propaganda pieces as the basis for your argument.

I quote Wikipedia again:

The Annapolis Conference was a Middle East peace conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_conference) held on November 27, 2007, at the United States Naval Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Naval_Academy) in Annapolis, Maryland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis,_Maryland), United States. The conference aimed to revive the Peace process (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_process_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_c onflict) and gather broad international support. The conference ended with the issuing of a joint statement from all parties. U.S. Secretary of State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secretary_of_State) Condoleezza Rice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice) organized and hosted the conference.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference#cite_note-announcement-1) Palestinian President (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Palestinian_National_Authority) Mahmoud Abbas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas), Israeli Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Israel) Ehud Olmert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehud_Olmert), and U.S. President George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush) attended the meeting.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference#cite_note-2) A partial list of over 40 invitees was released on November 20, 2007, including China, the Arab League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League), Russia, the European Union and the United Nations;[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference#cite_note-3) most of whom accepted the invitation.

(Cited Sources)

^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference#cite_ref-announcement_1-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference#cite_ref-announcement_1-1) U.S. State Department, November 20, 2007, Announcement of Annapolis Conference (http://web.archive.org/web/20071122125447/http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2007/nov/95458.htm). On web.archive.org/
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference#cite_ref-2) "Abbas says upcoming Mideast conference 'a new beginning' (http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/6274002.html)", People's Daily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Daily), Sept. 29, 2007.
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis_Conference#cite_ref-3) Associated, The (April 2, 2008). "Haaretz, November 20, 2007, Partial list of confirmed invitees to Annapolis peace summit" (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/926297.html). Haaretz.com. Retrieved August 9, 2011.

Your Essay is hence irrelevant. It offers no indication of how the United States needs to change. If anything it shows by calling into question the Annapolis Conference the Great lengths that we went to in an effort to discuss peace in the area.
So your Essay has actually bolstered MY case and not your own.

Moving Forward... Other ways the Arab World must change.

I will now talk of the next way that the Muslim/Arab world must change. This way refers to the State of Israel.

Arabs/Muslims must change the way that they act in their relations with their Jewish Neighbors. The State of Israel was founded 66 years ago in land ceded by the United Nations from what was then British Mandatory Palestine. The Rest of the land went to Trans-Jordan(West Bank), Greater Syria(Golan Heights), and Egypt(Gaza Strip). The Palestinian people have NEVER owned clear Title to the Land. There has never before the establishment of the Palestinian Authority any established Government, Official Currency, defined borders or United Nations recognition. The Palestinians merely were nomadic squatters that traversed the land under the Ottomans and were allowed to continue by the British after the Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WWI.

Now...in 1947 when the Mandate ended a speech was made to the Collected "Yishuv" by David Ben Gurion. Mr. Ben-gurion spoke his message of PEACE and cooperation with the Arabs and Palestinians.

And I quote his speech from 1947: The Final 3 Paragraphs.

http://www.mideastweb.org/bg1947.htm

Statement to the Elected Assembly of Palestine Jews by Mr. David Ben-Gurion,
2 October 1947

A final fact. From our work in Palestine, from the society we are constructing, our economy and science, our culture and humanity, our social and fiscal order, and from no other source, must enlightenment come to our neighbors, for if they do not learn from us and labor with us, it is with strangers, potent and tyrannous, that they will find themselves partnered.

They in turn have much to give us, they are blessed with what we lack. Great territories, ample for themselves and their children's children, even if they are far more prolific than they are today. We do not covet their expanses nor will we penetrate them - for we shall fight to end Diaspora in Arab lands as fiercely as we fought to end it in Europe, we want to be assembled wholly in our own Land. But if this region is to expand to the full, there must be reciprocity, there can be mutual aid - economic, political and cultural - between Jew and Arab. That is the necessity which will prevail, and the daily fulminations of their leaders should not alarm us unduly - they do not echo the real interests of the Arab peoples.

Come what may, we will not surrender our right to free Aliyah, to rebuild our shattered Homeland, to claim statehood. If we are attacked, we will fight back. But we will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a Cupertino(Partnership) gainful to both. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

(End Quote)

If the Arab/Muslim world is to come into it's own it must look back at this speech and hold it's leaders responsible for putting themselves into the position they find themselves in today. Since before it was a state the people of Israel have offered Peace and Cooperation. The Arbs/Muslims have offered War and Terrorist bombings. The hand of peace must be extended but it must come from the Arab/Muslim Nations. Israel offered it 66 years ago, it is now time for the Arabs to change Direction and work with the Jewish State for the Prosperity of the Entire region. The Israelis are exceptionally educated, technologically advanced and can help change the entire middle east for the benefit of every nation involved.

The Arab/Muslim world must put aside their old grudges and hatreds and learn how to cooperate for the advancement and prosperity of their people.

I wish to quote you personally now:

You also began, as I understand, to compare the culture of the West and the East, which I think is pointless. It is, after all, the ideology of racism..

Yes.. I am comparing the Cultures of the East and West. The Arab world needs to look to the West, Especially the United States and to Israel. From our Founding in 1776 to the Present day we have emerged as a leader in the civilized world due to our Education, our beliefs in freedom and our ability to work with others. Our great enemy in 1776 is now our greatest Ally. Turkey who we fought in WWI is one of our strongest friends in the Middle East. Germany, Japan and Italy are all among our closest Allies following WWII.

Why cant their be Peace between Arab and Jew? This is something the Arab/Muslim world must change...

(Your turn)

****Post Script***
In your above quote you said I advance the Ideology of Racism because I compare Eastern and Western Culture. Playing the Race Card like that is beneath contempt sir and I call on the Moderators of this debate to show me anything that I said that can be construed as Racist.

That was a Cheap Shot Alik Bahshi... But it shows me what I am dealing with.

Alik Bahshi

07-02-2013, 11:45 AM

<o:p></o><o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>
Dear, you are gone from the subject andbegan to compare the culture of the West and the East, alluding to the cultural backlog Arabs from theEuropeans. To which I replied that it was not a permanent phenomenon in the development ofcivilization and that in ancient times, it was the opposite and that generallycompare the culture of the people, much less condemn wrong. Confirmingthe above, I gave an example that the word "algebra of Arab origin. Inresponse to you: «You are totally wrong ...» and give a linkhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra.
But it reads:

<o:p></o>
«The word algebra comes from the Arabiclanguage (الجبر al-jabr" restoration") and much of its methods from Arabic / Islamic mathematics. Earlier traditions discussed above had a direct influence on Muhammad ibn Mūsāal-Khwārizmī (c. 780-850). Helater wrote The Compendious Book on Calculation by Completion and Balancing,which established algebra as a mathematical discipline that is independent of geometry and arithmetic. [6] "
Seems to me that you are very messy and what I say and what is written in the linkthat you found the same.
Then,you go back to to the topic of our debate, and re-start accusing me that I leftthe topic, when cited as an explanation of the article "Late Flowers". (Http://rtviforums.com/forum2/index.php?showtopic=3811 (http://rtviforums.com/forum2/index.php?showtopic=3811)).

In this article I argue perversity of Bush to show that Obama is in line with myother article, "America needs change" the need to change U.S. policyin the Arab-Israeli conflict, really wants to change the inertia of the White House on this issue and finally bring peace betweenArabs and Jews, it was not possible to make Bush for 8 years and on the MiddleEast peace conference in Annapolis, which took place on 27. 11.2007. "Late Flowers" I wrote 10.11.2007, ie 17 days before the start of the conference and predicted that out of this conference, Bush did not turn out that what happened in reality:

<o:p></o>
«Organizations that approved of the conferencealso mobilized and prepared to demonstrate their support for the summit. [28][29] The United Nations prepared a resolution to be adopted by the SecurityCouncil on November 30, 2007, expressing support for the outcome of the conference. Theresolution was withdrawn after Israel raised complaints. [30] "(in yoursame link).

<o:p></o>
I repeat once again that the "Late Flowers" is not propaganda, as youcall it, and the proof of wrong past policies of America and must be changed,and that makes Obama, at least, I think so.
<o:p></o>
I am hoping that Obama will carry the slogan "two states for two peoples", despite the opposition of Israel, which continues to build Jewish settlements in the occupied territory,which makes it impossible for the peace process. Youmay consider this too my propaganda, but if it came about, I'll explain what the peace process in the Israeli sense. ("The peace process, the moratorium and other" Jewish things ", see the forum).<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>

Voted4Reagan

07-02-2013, 01:15 PM

I can see what you are doing now... You are once again narrowing the scope of the Conversation and trying to focus on just you own copy and pasted essays. All you are doing now is saying that the President of the United States has to bring pressure on Israel to accept terms it finds to be unfavorable.

You have still not mentioned anything that needs to be changed in the United States other then our stance in regards to Israel. Is that what you're getting at? Well guess what? It isnt going to happen... No American President will force Israel to do anything it feels to be against it's national interests. Israel is it's own sovereign Nation. They can and will do as they please.
It is not our job to reign them in or tell them what to do. If the Muslim/Arab world wants something from Israel I suggest you go to the Israelis and talk to them. As they offered in 1947 before they achieved statehood..

Now...Since you have offered nothing except your own essays ... what do you propose the we in the United States Change?

I have plenty more recommendations for the Muslim/Arab World. The Next point I will discuss it Arab/Muslim Terrorism against the West and against other Arab Nations.

Since I was a child I have seen it on Television, Images of Hijackings, Bombings, exploding Buses in the street, Suicide Bombers, Car Bombs, Hostages, Athletes being killed at a peaceful Olympic Games in 1972. And aside from The IRA and Bader-Meinhoff occasionally pursuing their own crazed agendas through Violence (I am Irish and Denounced the IRA BOMBINGS) it always boiled down to one group that committed the vast Majority of these crimes. Muslim/Arab Terrorists.

Let us go back to when it all started, a day in 1921. The Ottoman Empire had collapsed and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Kamil al-Husayni had just died. As a Leader Kamil al-Husayni ruled well as a Grand Mufti, he sought Compromise. Jews and Arabs worked together for the Benefit of all.

I Quote... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamil_al-Husayni

Kamil al-Husayni (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): <big>كامل الحسيني</big>‎, also Kamel al-Hussaini) (23 February 1867 - 31 March 1921) was a Sunni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni) Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) religious leader and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mufti_of_Jerusalem) from 1908 until his death.
Al-Husayni was the son of Mohammed Tahir al-Husayni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Tahir_al-Husayni), the first Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. When his father died in 1908, Kamil succeeded him. Politically, his approach was much different than his father's. During the British Mandate for Palestine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine), he sought compromise with the Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) and British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) authorities. The British appointed him chairman of the Appeal Courts and later director of the Higher Waqf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waqf) Committee.

A progressive Sunni Arab Cleric that sought Compromise and peace with the Jewish people and the British...

Upon his death in 1921, he was replaced by his Brother, Haj Amin Al-Husayni.

Haj Amin Al-Husayni was the complete opposite of his brother. And this became apparent very quickly.

(From Wikipedia)

From as early as 1920, in order to secure the independence of Palestine as an Arab state he actively opposed Zionism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism), and was implicated as a leader of a violent riot that broke out over the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_home_for_the_Jewish_people) in Palestine.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_note-5) Al-Husseini was sentenced to ten years imprisonment, but was pardoned by the British.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_note-6) From 1921 to 1937[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_note-7) al-Husseini was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mufti_of_Jerusalem), using the position to promote Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam) and rally a non-confessional Arab nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_nationalism) against Zionism.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_note-8)

(sources)

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_ref-6) Porch, Douglas. "The Other "Gulf War"—The British Invasion of Iraq in 1941" (http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a485156.pdf). Online Information for the Defense Community. Retrieved 25 February 2013.

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_ref-7) Ben-Ze'ev 2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#CITEREFBen-Ze.27ev2011), pp. 17–18: 'In 1937, due to Hajj Amin-al-Husseini's involvement in the revolt, the British deposed him as Mufti and declared the Arab Higher Committee illegal.'
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_ref-8) Kohn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#CITEREFKohn), p. 58.To a British official who spoke of the Christians and Jews as minorities he replied: 'For us it is an exclusively Arab, but a Mohammaedan question. During your sojourn in this country you have doubtless observed that here there are no distinctions between Mohammedan and Christian Arabs. We regard the Christians not as a minority, but as Arabs.'
^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#cite_ref-5) Laurens 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni#CITEREFLaurens1999), pp. 506–512.

Let us Continue...

After he was deposed as Grand Mufti he sought an alliance beneficial in his eyes that would allow him to control the Middle East and destroy the PROPOSED Jewish State and her people. That alliance... Was with the Third Reich, Nazi Germany and Adolf Hitler himself . So started the Antisemitism we see today from Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims. He recruited SS-Divisions and aided in the Final solution.

(Pictures are worth a thousand words....So...)

http://citizensusa.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/bundesarchiv_bild_146-1987-004-09a_amin_al_husseini_und_adolf_hitler.jpg

Fortunately, Husayni died in 1974, never realizing his dream...Thankfully.

Lets examine some other Famous contributions by Radical islamists that we can all recall.

PLO Hijackings of Airliners

The Achille Lauro hijacking and the Murder of a crippled Jewish man from New York. Leon Klinghoffer.

Bombing of a Pan-Am 747 over Lockerbie Scotland

Kiryat Shmona massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiryat_Shmona_massacre), Ma'alot massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma%27alot_massacre), Savoy Operation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savoy_Operation), A bomb detonates in Zion Square (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion_Square) ,Operation Entebbe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe),

Now... in the year 2001:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, January 1: A Hamas suicide car bomber detonates in the city of Netanya, wounding 50.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-SUIC546-1)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, February 14: A Hamas suicide bomber plowed a bus into a crowd and detonated, killing 8 and wounding 21.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-SUIC546-1)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, March 4: A Hamas suicide bomber detonated in the city of Netanya, killing 3 and wounding 65.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-SUIC546-1)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, March 27: A suicide bomber blows himself up next to a bus in Jerusalem's French Hill area, injuring 30 Israelis.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, March 28: A suicide bomber detonated near a gas station outside Kfar Saba, killing two Israeli teenagers on their way to school.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, March 28: A suicide bomber, from the Arab Hamas organization, blew himself up amidst a gathering of students waiting at a bus stop, four teenagers were wounded, one of them in critical condition.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, April 29: A suicide car bomber attempted to target a school bus near Nablus, but detonated prematurely.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-CTA1-5)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, May 18: A Arab suicide bomber from the Hamas blew himself up at the entrance of a shopping mall in the city of Netanya, near Tel-Aviv, 5 people were killed in the blast and over 100 men, women and children were injured.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, May 25: Two suicide car bombers targeted a bus station in Hadera, injuring 65.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-CTA1-5)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, June 1: A Hamas suicide bomber kills 21 civilians, 16 of them teenagers, in the Dolphinarium discotheque suicide bombing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphinarium_discotheque_suicide_bombing) in Tel Aviv (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tel_Aviv).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, June 22: A suicide bomber detonates in the city of Dugit, killing 2.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-SUIC546-1)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, July 9: A Arab suicide car bomber detonated near the Kissufim crossing point in the southern Gaza Strip, causing no other casualties.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-israilsucide-11)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, July 16: A Arab suicide bomber detonated at a bus stop near the train station in Binyamina, halfway between Netanya and Haifa. The Arab terrorist group Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack which killed two people.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, August 8: A suicide car bomber detonated, lightly wounding one soldier, at a roadblock near the B'kaot moshav in the northern Jordan Valley shortly after 9:00am.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-israilsucide-11)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, August 9: A Hamas suicide bomber detonates in Jerusalem killing fifteen and wounding 130 in the Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sbarro_restaurant_suicide_bombing).
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, August 12: A Arab suicide bomber wounds 15 people when he blows himself up in a restaurant in Kiryat Motzkin in northern Israel.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, September 4: A Arab suicide bomber wounds 15 people when he blows himself up outside a Jerusalem hospital.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, September 9: A suicide bomber detonated at a train station in Nahariya, an Israeli city, killing three people and wounding over 90 unarmed civilians. The Islamic Arab terrorist group Hamas took responsibility for the murders.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-FOI9-4)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/22px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel) Israel, September 9: A suicide car bomber hit Beit Lid junction near Netanya, injuring 17.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-CTA1-5)

Lets throw in one more from the United States: I think you know this one Alik.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/Flag_of_the_United_States.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_States.svg.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) United States, September 11: Attacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks) kill 2,973, and some later from exposure to toxic dust, bringing the death toll to 2,996.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-18) in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center) in New York City (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City), and The Pentagon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon) in Arlington County (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arlington_County,_Virginia). A fourth plane, originally intended to hit the United States Capitol Building (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Building), crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_County,_Pennsylvania), after an apparent revolt against the hijackers by the plane's passengers.[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2001#cite_note-19)

You want Peace Alik Bahshi? You want a 2 State Solution? You want a voice for Islamic people in the Middle East.

Have them renounce Terror and bombings of Innocent Civilians. Right now the Face of Islam is the face of Murder and Death. Continuing to use terror to influence US Policy or Israeli Policy will be the downfall of the Arab World.

Egypt realized this, so did Jordan...

The rest need to... Or Arabs/Muslims will be viewed as Butchers of women and Children. Attacking Schools and Hospitals and not Soldiers or Military targets.. Because they are COWARDS..

Alik Bahshi

07-03-2013, 03:35 AM

What do you mean, I "shrink talk"? This as you know, is about the need to change U.S. policy toward Russia and Israel under "America needs change." You have started to discuss and compare the culture of the West and Arabs, and saythat the culture of the Arabs is bad, and other racist things. Inmy reply that "algebra" word of Arabic origin you did not know it and rushed to look for spaces Wikipedia and realized that you were wrong. Nowyou are back to the beginning of our debate, again put a lot of information from the same Wikipedia instead to express specifically what you want to say. And here the picture ofHitler with some sheik? Maybethat's enough to jump from one topic to another location with the mass ofstatistics from the internet! Is notit better to do your own words without copying Wikipedia. Nowyou touched on the subject of terrorism, or rather about Islamic terrorism. O.K. This is my favorite subject. I puthere "International Terrorism and its interested parties." There I was,as I could, explained the causes of terrorism and its sources. By the way it is Islamic terrorism came after the Israel, before that Islamicterrorism was not. Conclusion:The religion of Islam does not have a direct relationship of terrorism and notthe cause of its occurrence. Incidentally,if you're talking about the Arab-Israeli conflict, the Arabs do not generalizeto all Muslims. For example, as you know, the Bosnians have no relation to the Arab-Israeliconflict. Andyet, religion is used in politics for their own purposes, such as in Iran. Itis known that when religion and politics are in a union, then it leads to obscurantism. Moreover,the political goals are more important than religion. Rememberhow the 8 years war between Iran and Iraq is and where is religion? Oranother example, Iran is in a strategic alliance with the Christian countriesof Russia and Armenia against Azerbaijan and tell me where is religion? Soleave a photo of Hitler with the mufti or sheikh, the Internet can find and Hitler's relationship with Jewish financiers that our dispute is not related.
AndI want to note that for some reason think that if someone wants to make peace between Arabs and Jews, or anyone for the principle of "two states for twopeoples," he is an anti-Semite, which is fundamentally wrong. Ido not want to repeat all my arguments in the articles "Israel - the pathto oblivion" and others which are already on display on forum. You accuse me of a large volume of text, but a complex issue and I am trying to argue conclusions, and not just limited to slogans, which of course leads tothe big stuff. You accuse me of an essay, but it's my essay, not copied Wikipedia how you do it.<o:p></o>
Sorry for my English, but I think you understood me.<o:p></o>
<o:p></o>

Voted4Reagan

07-03-2013, 05:57 AM

Alik Bahshi

07-03-2013, 02:42 PM

See.... there you go again. You still have not mentioned any one thing that the United States must CHANGE.

You continue to Narrow the Scope of our discussion to come back to your own copy and pasted diatribes.

Now Start discussing what the United States needs to change about itself.

Now.. in my next discussion...I shall discuss the subject of womens rights in the Arab World and how it will lead to the collapse of those Islamic states that dont address them.

Women in the Arab world are little better than property . They have almost no rights under civilian Law and certainly less under Sharia.

Arabs and Muslims hide their women. How do they do this?

1. They restrict what they wear. Women in the Arab world cant wear anything they want. they have MODESTY LAWS to keep women in a certain style of dress. Be it the Burqa, the Niqab, the Hijab , long formless outfits covered from head to toe. Not allowed to wear Shorts or Skirts. This reduces the woman to a formless mass of cloth . Muslim men can wear anything they like... Muslim women would get beaten or imprisoned by the Fashion Police if they did so.

2. Women in many Muslim/Arab countries can't leave their house unless Escorted - This makes her a prisoner to her home. She cant go out unless her Husband or male relative allows it and escorts her. Talk about a loss of personal freedom.

3. Women cant drive cars in most Arab/Muslim Countries. Further restricting their freedom.

4. Women are not allowed to Vote in many Muslim majority countries. Denying them a voice in government.

5. Women are not allowed to work in many Muslim countries.

6. Women can not inherit Property.

7. Women are not granted equal protection under the Sharia Law or Civil Law in many Muslim Countries.

The List goes on and on...

If The Arab world does not give a voice and Jobs to more than 50% of her people. How can the Arab/Muslim world advance?

Failure of this type of society that doesnt grant equal rights to women is inevitable.

You will excuse me as a fool, you call me,but what I can tell you, you just have to find. Yourhopping from one topic to another make me a fool, just a real delight! Youwill not believe, but on the situation of women who are not open about it, I amvery happy to talk.
You'reabsolutely right, women in Islam is second-class citizens. However, not bettertreatment of women in Judaism. Recently happened to beat the wedding of the orthodox. So there arewomen and men are separated in different rooms. The synagogue is alsoa separate area for women. Forprayer at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, women special time that they have metwith men who are more holier, than women. Inthe religious Beit Shemesh women supposed to walk on the same side of thestreet, and men on the other, on the bus women can not sit next to a man, arereserved seats for women in the back seats of the bus. Inthis case, I do not see much difference between Islam and Judaism. Even more thanthat Judaism did not consider the goyim as human beings. Onthis occasion, do not be surprised, I also have an article "Israelidemocracy or the Jewish view of the world" which introduce you, smart,with great joy.<o:p></o:p>

Voted4Reagan

07-03-2013, 04:38 PM

You will excuse me as a fool, you call me,but what I can tell you, you just have to find. Yourhopping from one topic to another make me a fool, just a real delight! Youwill not believe, but on the situation of women who are not open about it, I amvery happy to talk.
You'reabsolutely right, women in Islam is second-class citizens. However, not bettertreatment of women in Judaism. Recently happened to beat the wedding of the orthodox. So there arewomen and men are separated in different rooms. The synagogue is alsoa separate area for women. Forprayer at the Western Wall in Jerusalem, women special time that they have metwith men who are more holier, than women. Inthe religious Beit Shemesh women supposed to walk on the same side of thestreet, and men on the other, on the bus women can not sit next to a man, arereserved seats for women in the back seats of the bus. Inthis case, I do not see much difference between Islam and Judaism. Even more thanthat Judaism did not consider the goyim as human beings. Onthis occasion, do not be surprised, I also have an article "Israelidemocracy or the Jewish view of the world" which introduce you, smart,with great joy.<o:p></o>

No... your obvious Bias seems to know no boundaries... Are you seriously comparing the way Women are treated in Islam to the way the Orthodox Jews treat their women? Do you really want to go down that road? Because you'll certainly fail at that as well.

In Orthodox Judaism women are:

Allowed to Vote
Allowed to Drive
Allowed to own Property
Allowed equal protection under the law.
Are allowed to hold Jobs
Are allowed to attend School (Even the Ultra Orthodox Satmar Sect allows women to go to school and Work)
Are allowed to hold political office

Israeli Women who are Conservative or reformed secular Jews are afforded all of the above as well as:

Allowed to serve in the Military

Just because a small piece of the Population of Israel practices Orthodoxy and maintains separate Schools and Worships Separately does not make them like Muslim/Islamic Women. Israeli women have Freedom to do what they like, when they like without fear of the Law.

Israeli Women (Orthodox) that I am friends with are Teachers, Nurses, Doctors, Civil Lawyers, Designers.

How many women DOCTORS do you have in Saudi Arabia? In Yemen? In the UAE or in Sudan? What about Afghanistan?

ZERO....NONE....That's how many!

In Egypt, Turkey, Jordan and Syria it is Different. These are secular Muslim Societies in many areas and women have opportunity. But in Orthodox Islam which is the Majority of the Muslim World they are little more than Chattel Property.

Do not tell me it isn't true... You know it is.

Women in Israel are better Educated and afforded every opportunity that men have outside a few of the Orthodox sects who CHOOSE to allow the rules of separation. In Islam it is NOT OPTIONAL.

You want to keep debating this Alik? You still have not shown me ONE EXAMPLE of what AMERICA NEEDS TO CHANGE.

I have shown plenty that Islam can change and will continue to do so...

You have ONE POST LEFT to win this debate Alik Bahshi... Make it a good one...

YOUR TURN ALIK.... I await your closing Argument.

Alik Bahshi

07-03-2013, 11:29 PM

I repeat, you do not take the text.I say that women's rights and the rights o fwomen,as in Islam, as in Judaism and unequal. You can not comparewith human rights secular faith that you are doing.I am against religion, and I believe that religion should be trimmed from the state,as is done in civilized countries.In this respect, the situationin Iran and Israelis identical. An din Israel, an din Iran religion to some degree finished by the state.
As for changes in U.S. policy toward the Arab-Israeli conflict, it has changed. Obama, unlike his predecessors actively presses on Israel and wants to implement the principle of "two states for two peoples." I hopet hat he will manage it. If this principle is not realized, then the future of Israel is very difficult about it on «Israel, - way to nonexistence».<o:p></o>

Voted4Reagan

07-04-2013, 06:47 AM

I wish to thank those that have taken the time from their busy days to follow this discourse between my opponent and myself.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Moderators, Friends and Alik Bahshi,

It seems Ironic that this debate should end today. A day of great significance in American History. A day of great CHANGE for us all when we as a united people stood up to oppression, enforced religion and Tyranny as a whole. Today July 4th, 2013 is Our Independence Day. A day that marks our transition from Colonial possession to Autonomous Nation. We as Americans changed from Subjects to FREE MEN and WOMEN. A democracy unlike any the world has ever seen.

Yesterday, July 3rd we saw a Glimmer of hope in the Arab/Muslim world. The Overthrow of Dictatorial oppression and Theological rule of the people of Egypt. They too have changed. They renounced the rules of a leader that trampled on their rights in all facets of their day to day lives, they stood together as one in Tahrir Square in the MILLIONS and spoke as one voice that they would be subjugated no more!

They Spoke for their rights to Work, Worship, and live their lives free of Governmental interference where they can provide for their families and rebuild the Nation of Egypt into a better place for all.

Sounds Familiar...Doesn't it?

The Arab World needs to have it's own Independence Day. A day when ALL MEN(and WOMEN) are accepted as EQUALS. When they realize that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. Those being Life, Liberty and the pursuit of their own Happiness.

Happy Fourth of July to all of the People here today. The Concept of Independence isn't Strictly an American Ideal. It is one for all Mankind. One that the Islamic world needs to embrace to move Forward.

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jimnyc

07-04-2013, 08:03 AM

This debate has ended. I am creating a public poll for everyone to vote on. I will also gather together the official judges and we will give a tally ASAP

jimnyc

07-09-2013, 05:19 PM

The poll that is open to everyone will stand for itself. Prior to the debate, it was agreed that myself, Abbey, Logroller, fj1200 and Tyr would be independent judges. I assumed I would just give a final tally without names, so that the number would stand by itself, and one could not pick apart the judges. But I think everyone will know how we all voted when I say the final tally was 5-0 in favor of V4R.

With that said, thank you to both participants for agreeing to debate. :)