Are "Shia" Islamic?

[jimnyc]

Some Sunni Muslims, and of course Jafar, claim that this group of people are NOT Muslims. Nevermind the fact that they are invited, and attend, various Muslim gatherings and summits...


The Shia (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): شيعة‎, Shīʿah) represent the second largest denomination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches) of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), accounting for 10-30% of the world's normative body of Muslims.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam#cite_note-CIA-1) Adherents of Shia Islam are called Shi'ites or Shias. "Shia" is the short form of the historic phrase Shīʻatu ʻAlī (شيعة علي), meaning "followers", "faction", or "party" of Muhammad's son-in-law and cousin Ali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali), whom the Shia believe to be Muhammad's successor in the Caliphate.

Shia Islam is based on the Quran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran) and the message of the Islamic prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_in_Islam) Muhammad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) attested in Shia hadith, and certain books deemed sacred to Shia (Nahj al-Balagha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahj_al-Balagha)).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam#cite_note-Esposito.2C_John_2002._p._40-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam#cite_note-3) In contrast to other types, the Shia believe that only God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Islam) has the right to choose a representative to safeguard Islam, the Quran and sharia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia). Thus the Shias look to Ali, Muhammad's son-in-law, whom they revere and consider divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Imams). The Shia extended this belief to Muhammad's family, the Ahl al-Bayt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahl_al-Bayt) ("the People of the House"), and certain individuals among his descendants, known as imams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twelve_Imams), who they believe possess special spiritual and political authority over the community, infallibility, and other traits.

Although there were many Shia branches throughout history, modern Shia Islam has been divided into three main branches, namely the Ithna ashariyya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelver) (Twelvers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelver)), the Ismailis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismailism) (Seveners) and the Zaidis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaidiyyah) ("Fivers").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam


Shia Muslims account for approximately 15 percent of the total Muslim population in the world. Shiism has the greatest influence in the contemporary world in Iran where nearly 90 percent of Muslims are Shiite, but Shia are also the majority in Iraq, Bahrain, and Yemen. The division between the Shia and Sunni is rooted in disputes over the proper succession of leadership after the death of the Prophet Muhammad in 632 C.E. The Shia maintain that the rightful successor of the Prophet was his cousin and son-in-law, Ali. Shia especially revere a succession of scholars (called Imams). The Imam is regarded by Shia Muslims to be both a political and a spiritual leader. Although Shia and Sunni Muslims agree on many doctrinal and ritual matters, the Shia hold past Imams and saints in particularly high regard. The most important of these figures are memorialized by often elaborate tombs, which have become important pilgrimage places and objects of devotion. Shia put particular emphasis on the death of Ali; he was assassinated in 661, in Najaf, Iraq, which has become an important place of pilgrimage for Shia. Another very significant figure is Husayn, Muhammad's grandson, who was murdered in Karbala (Iraq) in 680; Shia commemorate this event each year on Ashura, a day of mourning recognized throughout the Shia world, and, particularly, by pilgrimages to Karbala.

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Shia-Islam.html


Sunni and Shia Islam are the two major denominations of Islam. The demographic breakdown between the two denominations is difficult to assess and varies by source, but a good approximation is that 70–90%[1][2][3][4][5] of the world's Muslims are Sunni and 10–30%[1][4][5][6] are Shia, with most Shias belonging to the Twelver tradition and the rest divided between several other groups.[7][8]

Sunnis are a majority in most Muslim communities: in South East Asia, China, South Asia, Africa, and some of the Arab world. Shia make up the majority of the population in Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain (all together called the Shia Crescent), while Pakistan has the second-largest Shia Muslim (Twelver) population in the world.

The historic background of the Sunni–Shia split lies in the schism that occurred when the Islamic prophet Muhammad died in the year 632, leading to a dispute over succession to Muhammad as a caliph of the Islamic community spread across various parts of the world which led to the Battle of Siffin. Today there are differences in religious practice, traditions and customs, often related to jurisprudence. Although all Muslim groups consider the Quran to be divine, Sunni and Shia have different opinions on hadith.

Over the years, Sunni–Shia relations have been marked by both cooperation and conflict. Sectarian violence persists to this day from Pakistan to Yemen and is a major element of friction throughout the Middle East.[9][10] Tensions between communities have intensified during power struggles, such as the Bahraini uprising, the 2003 Iraq War, and most recently the Syrian civil war


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a%E2%80%93Sunni_relations


Question: What's the Difference Between Shia and Sunni Muslims?

Answer: Both Sunni and Shia Muslims share the most fundamental Islamic beliefs and articles of faith (http://islam.about.com/od/basicbeliefs/p/intro.htm). The differences between these two main sub-groups within Islam initially stemmed not from spiritual differences, but political ones. Over the centuries, however, these political differences have spawned a number of varying practices and positions which have come to carry a spiritual significance.

The division between Shia and Sunni dates back to the death of the Prophet Muhammad, and the question of who was to take over the leadership of the Muslim nation. Sunni Muslims agree with the position taken by many of the Prophet's companions, that the new leader should be elected from among those capable of the job. This is what was done, and the Prophet Muhammad's close friend and advisor, Abu Bakr, became the first Caliph of the Islamic nation. The word "Sunni" in Arabic comes from a word meaning "one who follows the traditions of the Prophet."

http://islam.about.com/cs/divisions/f/shia_sunni.htm

So basically, they share the common denominator as a denomination of Islam - but since the Shia don't fully agree with Sunni, the Sunni would like to proclaim them as not Muslim. Our state department and every other major country refers to Shia, and Iran, as Islamic or Muslims. Is it possible that all of the world and all of the educational systems, are perhaps mislabeling the Shia as Islam? Yeah, sure, just an oversight! LOL

[Marcus Aurelius]

this has been pointed out to Jahil over and over... He obviously knows more about Islam than the rest of the world.

[hjmick]

Yes.


Close Thread...

[gabosaurus]

They're Muslims if you want them to be Muslims. So unleash the hate...

[Gaffer]

Shea are final days muslims. They believe the 12th imam will return to make the world all islamic, after they have caused a cataclysmic war destroying most of humanity. The sunni's believe in establishing the 6th caliphate, the rebirth of the ottoman empire and eventual conquest of the world. That's why all the tyrants in the middle east are being over thrown. After syria will come jordan. Terrorist attacks are just a side show while they concentrate on the big goal.

[jimnyc]

They're Muslims if you want them to be Muslims. So unleash the hate...

Why is it so difficult for you to actually participate instead of trolling and interrupting? I stood up for you at length recently, as to why perhaps you were treated in a certain way, and why perhaps you post in a certain manner. All you are doing is making yourself look foolish with your trolling, and me foolish for having defended you.

[Gaffer]

Maybe you could restrict her to the cage only. She would be right at home there.

[jafar00]

Reasons why Shia are not Muslims.

1) They worship Hussein, Fatima, and Ali as if they were gods. They even call themselves names like Abdul-Hussein or Abdul-Ali. These names are Islamically prohibited. We can call ourselves Abullah, or Abdul-Rahman. Names of God. The Abd part means servant. Since Muslims worship Allah alone, we cannot be a servant to anyone else.

2) They believe their Imams are infallible and cannot sin, cannot ever think or say anything wrong and possess the hidden knowledge of Allah. Only Allah has this hidden knowledge according to Muslims. Even the Prophets were not infallible.

3) They make Muta'a or temporary marriage permissible. They can buy a wife for a few days or a few hours even then divorce her without giving her any of the rights of a wife! Muslims consider this to be prostitution.

4) The insult some of the companions of the Prophet (saw) and his wives! Muslims believe the companions to be the best of Muslims and his wives, the mothers of all believers.

Look at a comparison of the Shia declaration of faith and the Islamic one. BTW, the Shahada (Islamic declaration of faith) is in my sig :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HslKeNB7pQM

5) The believe Karbala is a greater and more holy city than Mecca and Medina combined. Muslims see Mecca (the site of the Kaaba) and Medina (Prophet's (saw) Mosque) as the most holy places in the world.

6) They put their Imams (human beings) on such high pedestals that they are above all of the Prophets and the Angels and that they have mastery and dominion over all atoms of creation. This is polytheism at it's finest. Muslims believe only Allah has this power.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PD_qXEAUk

7) They believe the Qur'aan to be a corrupted text. Muslims believe it to be the literal word of God and that it has been faithfully preserved from revelation to today.

8) They say that the wives of Mohamed (saw) are not of the house or family of the Prophet (saw) even though verse 33:33 directly addresses them as such.

And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance. Establish Prayer, give Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only wishes to remove uncleanness from you, O members of the (Prophet's) household, and to purify you completely. (33:33)

9) Taqqiyah is a Shia concept alien to Muslims. Muslims can only conceal their faith if it would mean certain death if they revealed their beliefs.

Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse. (2:159)

And many more reasons.....

They deviated so far from the Islam that Mohamed (saw) taught that they have become their own religion.

[jimnyc]

^^ Again, I have 2 friends who go to the Mosque together each week, one is Sunni and one Shia. They don't hate one another and they love one another. They don't discard the other and tell them they can't call one another Muslims.

But hey, maybe you can start an online petition to get the rest of the world to stop these 150+ million people from using the term, and to stop the world from recognizing them as a part of Islam? :dunno:

[Marcus Aurelius]

Reasons why Shia are not Muslims.

1) They worship Hussein, Fatima, and Ali as if they were gods. They even call themselves names like Abdul-Hussein or Abdul-Ali. These names are Islamically prohibited. We can call ourselves Abullah, or Abdul-Rahman. Names of God. The Abd part means servant. Since Muslims worship Allah alone, we cannot be a servant to anyone else.

2) They believe their Imams are infallible and cannot sin, cannot ever think or say anything wrong and possess the hidden knowledge of Allah. Only Allah has this hidden knowledge according to Muslims. Even the Prophets were not infallible.

3) They make Muta'a or temporary marriage permissible. They can buy a wife for a few days or a few hours even then divorce her without giving her any of the rights of a wife! Muslims consider this to be prostitution.

4) The insult some of the companions of the Prophet (saw) and his wives! Muslims believe the companions to be the best of Muslims and his wives, the mothers of all believers.

Look at a comparison of the Shia declaration of faith and the Islamic one. BTW, the Shahada (Islamic declaration of faith) is in my sig :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HslKeNB7pQM

5) The believe Karbala is a greater and more holy city than Mecca and Medina combined. Muslims see Mecca (the site of the Kaaba) and Medina (Prophet's (saw) Mosque) as the most holy places in the world.

6) They put their Imams (human beings) on such high pedestals that they are above all of the Prophets and the Angels and that they have mastery and dominion over all atoms of creation. This is polytheism at it's finest. Muslims believe only Allah has this power.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PD_qXEAUk

7) They believe the Qur'aan to be a corrupted text. Muslims believe it to be the literal word of God and that it has been faithfully preserved from revelation to today.

8) They say that the wives of Mohamed (saw) are not of the house or family of the Prophet (saw) even though verse 33:33 directly addresses them as such.

And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance. Establish Prayer, give Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only wishes to remove uncleanness from you, O members of the (Prophet's) household, and to purify you completely. (33:33)

9) Taqqiyah is a Shia concept alien to Muslims. Muslims can only conceal their faith if it would mean certain death if they revealed their beliefs.

Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse. (2:159)

And many more reasons.....

They deviated so far from the Islam that Mohamed (saw) taught that they have become their own religion.


that is all from an anti-islamic hate site.

Why do you hate Islam so much, Jahil?

[stevecanuck]

Reasons why Shia are not Muslims.

1) They worship Hussein, Fatima, and Ali as if they were gods. They even call themselves names like Abdul-Hussein or Abdul-Ali. These names are Islamically prohibited. We can call ourselves Abullah, or Abdul-Rahman. Names of God. The Abd part means servant. Since Muslims worship Allah alone, we cannot be a servant to anyone else.

2) They believe their Imams are infallible and cannot sin, cannot ever think or say anything wrong and possess the hidden knowledge of Allah. Only Allah has this hidden knowledge according to Muslims. Even the Prophets were not infallible.

3) They make Muta'a or temporary marriage permissible. They can buy a wife for a few days or a few hours even then divorce her without giving her any of the rights of a wife! Muslims consider this to be prostitution.

4) The insult some of the companions of the Prophet (saw) and his wives! Muslims believe the companions to be the best of Muslims and his wives, the mothers of all believers.

Look at a comparison of the Shia declaration of faith and the Islamic one. BTW, the Shahada (Islamic declaration of faith) is in my sig :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HslKeNB7pQM

5) The believe Karbala is a greater and more holy city than Mecca and Medina combined. Muslims see Mecca (the site of the Kaaba) and Medina (Prophet's (saw) Mosque) as the most holy places in the world.

6) They put their Imams (human beings) on such high pedestals that they are above all of the Prophets and the Angels and that they have mastery and dominion over all atoms of creation. This is polytheism at it's finest. Muslims believe only Allah has this power.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PD_qXEAUk

7) They believe the Qur'aan to be a corrupted text. Muslims believe it to be the literal word of God and that it has been faithfully preserved from revelation to today.

8) They say that the wives of Mohamed (saw) are not of the house or family of the Prophet (saw) even though verse 33:33 directly addresses them as such.

And stay in your homes and do not go about displaying your allurements as in the former Time of Ignorance. Establish Prayer, give Zakah, and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah only wishes to remove uncleanness from you, O members of the (Prophet's) household, and to purify you completely. (33:33)

9) Taqqiyah is a Shia concept alien to Muslims. Muslims can only conceal their faith if it would mean certain death if they revealed their beliefs.

Lo! Those who hide the proofs and the guidance which We revealed, after We had made it clear to mankind in the Scripture: such are accursed of Allah and accursed of those who have the power to curse. (2:159)

And many more reasons.....

They deviated so far from the Islam that Mohamed (saw) taught that they have become their own religion.
Point number 1 surprises me. I agree that any name following abd should only be one of the 99 names. For example, there was a leader of the NOI in the US who went by the non-Islamic name abdel Mohamed. Point 7 need a lot more clarification. Since the Qur'an exists solely for the purpose of defining Islam, what do they consider corrupt about it, and why would they even want to call themselves muslims if they think it doesn't properly represent god's word?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Who knows more about what IS and IS NOT Islamic, Jahil? YOU? Or this man...

http://www.najah.info/2.%20Followers/bait%20group/originshia/What%20Suni%20ulama%20says%20about%20Shia.html




What follows is the Fatwa (religious verdict/ruling) of one of the Sunni world's most revered scholars, Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot with regard to the Shia. Shaikh Shaltoot was the head of the renowned al-Azhar Theological school in Egypt, one of the main centers of Sunni scholarship in the world.



Head Office of al-Azhar University:

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL
Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency

Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot,

Head of the al-Azhar University,

on Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah"
School of Thought
His Excellency was asked:
Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion, and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of thought, for example?
His Excellency replied:
1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for doing so.
2) The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought.
Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).
Signed,
Mahmood Shaltoot.

The above Fatwa was announced on July 6, 1959 from the Head of al-Azhar University, and was subsequently published in many publications in the middle east which include, but are not limited to:
1. al-Sha'ab newspaper (Egypt), issue of July 7, 1959.
2. al-Kifah newspaper (Lebanon), issue of July 8, 1959.
The above segment can also be found in the book "Inquiries about Islam", by Muhammad Jawad Chirri, Director of the Islamic Center of America, 1986 Detroit, Michigan.



Jahil may now go fuck himself.

[jafar00]

^^ Again, I have 2 friends who go to the Mosque together each week, one is Sunni and one Shia. They don't hate one another and they love one another. They don't discard the other and tell them they can't call one another Muslims.

But hey, maybe you can start an online petition to get the rest of the world to stop these 150+ million people from using the term, and to stop the world from recognizing them as a part of Islam? :dunno:

They may go to a Mosque together but I guarantee they don't pray together. Shia prayers and Islamic prayers are totally different.


Point number 1 surprises me. I agree that any name following abd should only be one of the 99 names. For example, there was a leader of the NOI in the US who went by the non-Islamic name abdel Mohamed. Point 7 need a lot more clarification. Since the Qur'an exists solely for the purpose of defining Islam, what do they consider corrupt about it, and why would they even want to call themselves muslims if they think it doesn't properly represent god's word?

As I cringe by offering a link to wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surah_of_Wilaya_and_Nurayn

The Shia add two extra verses to their Qur'aan which are total fabrications.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Who knows more about what IS and IS NOT Islamic, Jahil? YOU? Or this man...

http://www.najah.info/2.%20Followers/bait%20group/originshia/What%20Suni%20ulama%20says%20about%20Shia.html


What follows is the Fatwa (religious verdict/ruling) of one of the Sunni world's most revered scholars, Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot with regard to the Shia. Shaikh Shaltoot was the head of the renowned al-Azhar Theological school in Egypt, one of the main centers of Sunni scholarship in the world.

Head Office of al-Azhar University:

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL
Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency

Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot,

Head of the al-Azhar University,

on Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah"
School of Thought
His Excellency was asked:
Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion, and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of thought, for example?
His Excellency replied:
1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for doing so.
2) The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought.
Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).
Signed,
Mahmood Shaltoot.

The above Fatwa was announced on July 6, 1959 from the Head of al-Azhar University, and was subsequently published in many publications in the middle east which include, but are not limited to:
1. al-Sha'ab newspaper (Egypt), issue of July 7, 1959.
2. al-Kifah newspaper (Lebanon), issue of July 8, 1959.
The above segment can also be found in the book "Inquiries about Islam", by Muhammad Jawad Chirri, Director of the Islamic Center of America, 1986 Detroit, Michigan.


Jahil may now go fuck himself.

I see Jahil is too much of a coward to address this question.

[Marcus Aurelius]

They may go to a Mosque together but I guarantee they don't pray together. Shia prayers and Islamic prayers are totally different.



As I cringe by offering a link to wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surah_of_Wilaya_and_Nurayn

The Shia add two extra verses to their Qur'aan which are total fabrications.

Your whole religion is the fabrication of a drunk, illiterate pedophile.

[Marcus Aurelius]

They may go to a Mosque together but I guarantee they don't pray together. Shia prayers and Islamic prayers are totally different...

If Shia are not Islamic, why are they allowed into the mosque to pray in the first place, dumb ass?

How would YOU know, more than Jim? Are they your friends not his?

Who knows more about Islam... you, or Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot ???

[jimnyc]

If Shia are not Islamic, why are they allowed into the mosque to pray in the first place, dumb ass?

How would YOU know, more than Jim? Are they your friends not his?

Who knows more about Islam... you, or Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot ???

Don't worry, him not answering certain questions is obvious to others. He has long disputed what has been posted here by Islamic scholars. But the best of all is reality - he can defend Islam from here till eternity - but it does nothing to change the outright savagery and abuse we see from Muslims on a daily basis.

[Robert A Whit]

I thanked Jafar for adding a lot to this discussion.

I was fairly close to a guy from Iran who was a Shia until he came to the USA and changed to being a Catholic.

Sia stated to me that both sects are Muslims and are Islamist believers. He went so far as to explain the causes of the two branches. Jafar and he agree.

Now I see Jafar explain it from the Sunni side. It filled in a few blanks for me.

Jafar ought to explain why the Sunni Wahabi group are into violence.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I thanked Jafar for adding a lot to this discussion.

I was fairly close to a guy from Iran who was a Shia until he came to the USA and changed to being a Catholic.

Sia stated to me that both sects are Muslims and are Islamist believers. He went so far as to explain the causes of the two branches. Jafar and he agree.

Now I see Jafar explain it from the Sunni side. It filled in a few blanks for me.

Jafar ought to explain why the Sunni Wahabi group are into violence.

You obviously have not read anything Jahil posted on the subject of Shia, if you think he agrees that Shia is Islam but just a different branch. Jahil has stated categorically that he does NOT consider Shia part of Islam.

You'd know that if you bothered to read anythign he posted instead of blindly siding with him to piss others off.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Don't worry, him not answering certain questions is obvious to others. He has long disputed what has been posted here by Islamic scholars. But the best of all is reality - he can defend Islam from here till eternity - but it does nothing to change the outright savagery and abuse we see from Muslims on a daily basis.
He can not hide that TRUTH!!! INTERNET IS A POWERFUL LIGHT THAT BRINGS TRUTHFUL INFORMATION FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD IN SECONDS. Jafar surely hates that but can do nothing about it but try to lie and spin. Lets for a moment consider that Jafar is a true believer and believes all that he posts here. Man, that's some truly ffed up shat............ :shitfan:-Tyr

[jafar00]

Jafar ought to explain why the Sunni Wahabi group are into violence.

You tell me. They are nutcases. Wahabi, Kharajite, Salafi, Al Qaeda, whatever they want to call themselves today. To me they are the enemy of all Muslims. Twisting scriptures to their will to trick the uneducated into following them to be cannon fodder for their political aspirations.

Thank God I am educated about my religion and I cannot be led astray by these fools.

[Marcus Aurelius]

You tell me. They are nutcases. Wahabi, Kharajite, Salafi, Al Qaeda, whatever they want to call themselves today. To me they are the enemy of all Muslims. Twisting scriptures to their will to trick the uneducated into following them to be cannon fodder for their political aspirations.

Thank God I am educated about my religion and I cannot be led astray by these fools.

You've already been led astray, by your false religion.

Who knows more about Islam... you, or Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot???

[jimnyc]

Who knows more about what IS and IS NOT Islamic, Jahil? YOU? Or this man...

http://www.najah.info/2.%20Followers/bait%20group/originshia/What%20Suni%20ulama%20says%20about%20Shia.html

What follows is the Fatwa (religious verdict/ruling) of one of the Sunni world's most revered scholars, Shaikh Mahmood Shaltoot with regard to the Shia. Shaikh Shaltoot was the head of the renowned al-Azhar Theological school in Egypt, one of the main centers of Sunni scholarship in the world.

Head Office of al-Azhar University:

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL
Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency

Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot,

Head of the al-Azhar University,

on Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah"
School of Thought
His Excellency was asked:
Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion, and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of thought, for example?
His Excellency replied:
1) Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for doing so.
2) The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought.
Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).
Signed,
Mahmood Shaltoot.

The above Fatwa was announced on July 6, 1959 from the Head of al-Azhar University, and was subsequently published in many publications in the middle east which include, but are not limited to:
1. al-Sha'ab newspaper (Egypt), issue of July 7, 1959.
2. al-Kifah newspaper (Lebanon), issue of July 8, 1959.
The above segment can also be found in the book "Inquiries about Islam", by Muhammad Jawad Chirri, Director of the Islamic Center of America, 1986 Detroit, Michigan.



I'm curious as well to see what Jafar may have to say about this man that is not a "true Muslim".

[Marcus Aurelius]

I'm curious as well to see what Jafar may have to say about this man that is not a "true Muslim".

Well, the guy is dead, so Jahil can safely criticize him without fear of retribution.

It's more likely that he'll pretend to not have ever seen the multitude of posts where I ask him which of them knows more about Islam.

[jimnyc]

Well, the guy is dead, so Jahil can safely criticize him without fear of retribution.

It's more likely that he'll pretend to not have ever seen the multitude of posts where I ask him which of them knows more about Islam.

Normally I won't purposely quote people when I know another person has them on ignore, but I think it's a fair question. That and the fact that he was able to see your other thread, which only you posted in - means he either doesn't have you on ignore, or clicked the "show" button to go around it anyway.

[Gaffer]

You tell me. They are nutcases. Wahabi, Kharajite, Salafi, Al Qaeda, whatever they want to call themselves today. To me they are the enemy of all Muslims. Twisting scriptures to their will to trick the uneducated into following them to be cannon fodder for their political aspirations.

Thank God I am educated about my religion and I cannot be led astray by these fools.

Your education in real history is extremely lacking, and you still support hamas which shows a great amount of ignorance. If you were truly educated about your religion you wouldn't be a muslim.

All those supposed nutcases are what makes up the muslim brotherhood. Which you support. Hamas an MB affiliate, also belongs with the nut cases. All those nut cases are sunni's, just like you, does that mean your not a real muslim?

[jafar00]

Your education in real history is extremely lacking, and you still support hamas which shows a great amount of ignorance. If you were truly educated about your religion you wouldn't be a muslim.

All those supposed nutcases are what makes up the muslim brotherhood. Which you support. Hamas an MB affiliate, also belongs with the nut cases. All those nut cases are sunni's, just like you, does that mean your not a real muslim?

Again, I don't support Hamas. I support only their struggle and that they are the only ones resisting the brutal occupation of Palestine by the Zionists.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Again, I don't support Hamas. I support only their struggle and that they are the only ones resisting the brutal occupation of Palestine by the Zionists.

contradictory, dumb ass.

[jimnyc]

You'll notice Jafar purposely ignored the article/story I quoted. It's quite a conundrum I suppose, does one disagree with one of the most revered scholars, from the most prominent Islamic educational institute in the world, in al-Azhar University? If he answers, he either agrees with a scholar who was the head of the institute, and looks like he didn't know what he is talking about. Or, he can disagree with a worldly scholar on the subject, and look like he didn't know what he was talking about. I think I know why he avoided replying. :)

But the scholar from the most renowned Islamic school in the world is probably not a real Muslim. :)

[Voted4Reagan]

You'll notice Jafar purposely ignored the article/story I quoted. It's quite a conundrum I suppose, does one disagree with one of the most revered scholars, from the most prominent Islamic educational institute in the world, in al-Azhar University? If he answers, he either agrees with a scholar who was the head of the institute, and looks like he didn't know what he is talking about. Or, he can disagree with a worldly scholar on the subject, and look like he didn't know what he was talking about. I think I know why he avoided replying. :)

But the scholar from the most renowned Islamic school in the world is probably not a real Muslim. :)

It would seem that compliance with the Fatwah of Mahmood Shaltoot is dependent on what the political goals of the supposedly devout are...

Imam Shaltoot made that statement in the days of Nasser, when the dream of a United Islamic world existed. The attempt at Unifying all the Muslim countries failed because of the desire of many of these countries leaders to pursue Earthly Corruptions and to enrich themselves...not their people.

Imam Shaltoot spoke of acceptance and inclusion of Shiite's and Sunni's together.

One need only look at the predjudices that exist today between these two sects.... It will never end...

[jafar00]

Unlike the Shia belief that their Imams are infallible and their fatwas are legally binding, Muslims are free to follow a fatwa or not. A fatwa is an opinion only, not a legally binding decree.

In any case, the fatwa is about schools of thought, not religious practices.

[jimnyc]

Unlike the Shia belief that their Imams are infallible and their fatwas are legally binding, Muslims are free to follow a fatwa or not. A fatwa is an opinion only, not a legally binding decree.

In any case, the fatwa is about schools of thought, not religious practices.

In other words, you disagree with the "school of thought" from a leading scholar from the most prestigious Muslim university in the world. And of course we know the crap you spout is also opinion. Forgive us if we lean towards the opinion of a scholar from al-Azhar over you, and of course every other nation in the world who disagrees and every other publication, whether schools, government or independent. Only angry Sunni's have this opinion. Are calls for jihad legally binding? Does a single Muslim have ANY obligation to follow a call for jihad when called for by a major cleric? I believe he is one of the most revered clerics in the world - should he be ignored?

[Voted4Reagan]

Funny thing... Imam Shaltoot was quite Moderate in his writings and it seems that the Sunni are all to willing to throw his wisdom under the bus because it contradicts their political and ideological agenda.

Jafar dismisses him out of hand, only because he disagrees with him on the issue of the inclusion of the Shiite's as a true branch of Islam.

Shia and Sunni both follow the same Doctrine and both worship Allah and his Prophet (May peace and Allahs blessing be upon him).

Minor differences in Koranic Text and Doctrine dont change that. It's like a Protestant saying Catholics are not Christians or Vice versa.

It just isn't so... Sunni and Shia are the same religion... just different branches on the same tree.

[Marcus Aurelius]

In other words, you disagree with the "school of thought" from a leading scholar from the most prestigious Muslim university in the world. And of course we know the crap you spout is also opinion. Forgive us if we lean towards the opinion of a scholar from al-Azhar over you, and of course every other nation in the world who disagrees and every other publication, whether schools, government or independent. Only angry Sunni's have this opinion. Are calls for jihad legally binding? Does a single Muslim have ANY obligation to follow a call for jihad when called for by a major cleric? I believe he is one of the most revered clerics in the world - should he be ignored?

Of course he should be ignored. After all, since he doesn't agree with Jahil, he isn't 'really' Islamic, remember?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Funny thing... Imam Shaltoot was quite Moderate in his writings and it seems that the Sunni are all to willing to throw his wisdom under the bus because it contradicts their political and ideological agenda.

Jafar dismisses him out of hand, only because he disagrees with him on the issue of the inclusion of the Shiite's as a true branch of Islam.

Shia and Sunni both follow the same Doctrine and both worship Allah and his Prophet (May peace and Allahs blessing be upon him).

Minor differences in Koranic Text and Doctrine dont change that. It's like a Protestant saying Catholics are not Christians or Vice versa.

It just isn't so... Sunni and Shia are the same religion... just different branches on the same tree.



I guess Jahil is saying that Islam has only one long straight branch. (Let's see if he gets the reference).

[gabosaurus]

Sunni and Shia are the same religion... just different branches on the same tree.

By this pathetic worthless logic, Catholics and the Westboro Church are the same religion. Just different branches on the same tree.
Right?

[Voted4Reagan]

By this pathetic worthless logic, Catholics and the Westboro Church are the same religion. Just different branches on the same tree.
Right?

Actually yes...it does Gabby.

As flawed and unacceptable as the doctrine professed by the Westboro Baptist Church, they are a branch of christianity at their roots no matter how misguided they may be. Would I be proud to be a member of Westboro? No.. not at all.

But they are a branch on the same tree... a branch that is dying and bears ill fruit... But a branch none the less.

Eventually these branches die and break off from the tree... and are forgotten. Westboro is a small and shrinking congregation and you know that Westboro's philosophy is a singular radical philosophy that no other group emulates.

I know many baptists... To them Westboro is to be despised... They are a christian congregation that has lost their direction and has fallen into radicalism... not dissimilar to the Palestinians of the 1920's and 30's under the preachings of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem..

Yes they are Christians... they believe in Jesus Christ... it is their Doctrine that is abhorrent.

And once again you try to associate Catholics to something perverse and evil.... Why? I ask you again what is your issue with the Catholic Faith and why do you always target them?

[Syrenn]

Some Sunni Muslims, and of course Jafar, claim that this group of people are NOT Muslims. Nevermind the fact that they are invited, and attend, various Muslim gatherings and summits...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam



http://www.patheos.com/Library/Shia-Islam.html



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi%27a%E2%80%93Sunni_relations



http://islam.about.com/cs/divisions/f/shia_sunni.htm

So basically, they share the common denominator as a denomination of Islam - but since the Shia don't fully agree with Sunni, the Sunni would like to proclaim them as not Muslim. Our state department and every other major country refers to Shia, and Iran, as Islamic or Muslims. Is it possible that all of the world and all of the educational systems, are perhaps mislabeling the Shia as Islam? Yeah, sure, just an oversight! LOL

To tell you the truth, i really dont care. It is like the Catholics and Protestants.


all i care about is that they hate each other and want each other dead. The more of them killing each other off the better.

[Gaffer]

To tell you the truth, i really dont care. It is like the Catholics and Protestants.


all i care about is that they hate each other and want each other dead. The more of them killing each other off the better.

Yeah, we see that happening all the time. All those bombing of churches and gun battles in the streets. Be-headings and massacres, Oh wait...that's muslims.

If you don't care, don't bother posting.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Actually yes...it does Gabby.

As flawed and unacceptable as the doctrine professed by the Westboro Baptist Church, they are a branch of christianity at their roots no matter how misguided they may be. Would I be proud to be a member of Westboro? No.. not at all.

But they are a branch on the same tree... a branch that is dying and bears ill fruit... But a branch none the less.

Eventually these branches die and break off from the tree... and are forgotten. Westboro is a small and shrinking congregation and you know that Westboro's philosophy is a singular radical philosophy that no other group emulates.

I know many baptists... To them Westboro is to be despised... They are a christian congregation that has lost their direction and has fallen into radicalism... not dissimilar to the Palestinians of the 1920's and 30's under the preachings of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem..

Yes they are Christians... they believe in Jesus Christ... it is their Doctrine that is abhorrent.

And once again you try to associate Catholics to something perverse and evil.... Why? I ask you again what is your issue with the Catholic Faith and why do you always target them? Her issue is that history reveals that it was the Catholic church that stood against the muslims .. Im sure that's her main gripe.

[Trigg]

so basically, according to Jahil, they practice the Muslim faith differently so they aren't Muslim. They have different rules and ceremonies, so they aren't "REAL' Muslims.

I can only compare this to Catholics and Protestants. Accept that they are civilized and have quit killing each other over who is right. Maybe the Muslims of the world should join the 21st century.

[jafar00]

In other words, you disagree with the "school of thought" from a leading scholar from the most prestigious Muslim university in the world. And of course we know the crap you spout is also opinion. Forgive us if we lean towards the opinion of a scholar from al-Azhar over you, and of course every other nation in the world who disagrees and every other publication, whether schools, government or independent. Only angry Sunni's have this opinion. Are calls for jihad legally binding? Does a single Muslim have ANY obligation to follow a call for jihad when called for by a major cleric? I believe he is one of the most revered clerics in the world - should he be ignored?

There is no legal obligation to follow what the Egyptians called for. I could send money to the "rebels" if I wanted to but I am doing my bit before they called for "jihad" by my preference of sending money to help the refugees instead. While living in the 3rd most expensive city in the world that is getting more expensive to live in, finding extra money to do so is a "jihad" all it's own.
http://www.islamic-relief.com/Emergencies-And-Appeals/1-99-syria-crisis.aspx if you want to help them too.


Yeah, we see that happening all the time. All those bombing of churches and gun battles in the streets. Be-headings and massacres, Oh wait...that's muslims.

If you don't care, don't bother posting.

Did you forget about the mess Northern Ireland is in over Protestant vs Catholic? Much terrorism ensued (although it wasn't called terrorism) and the communities are on a hair trigger to this day.

[Marcus Aurelius]

...Did you forget about the mess Northern Ireland is in over Protestant vs Catholic? Much terrorism ensued (although it wasn't called terrorism) and the communities are on a hair trigger to this day.

Yes, it was called terrorism, dumb ass. Try using Google sometime.

As for hair trigger, you're full of shit, as usual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

[Voted4Reagan]

Did you forget about the mess Northern Ireland is in over Protestant vs Catholic? Much terrorism ensued (although it wasn't called terrorism) and the communities are on a hair trigger to this day.

On Edge? Hair Trigger? What the hell are you talking about?

The IRA in a show of good faith and commitment to the peace process unilaterally DISARMED itself and renounced the use of violence.. All actions of the Republican movement are now carried out in the halls of Government and through Negotiations.

Do not attempt to make it like the Irish and British are still at war with one another. They are not. Northern and Southern Ireland have been on a road of PEACE since the Easter Accords signed during the Clinton Administration almost 20 years ago!

From the Proclamation.

On 28 July 2005, the IRA announced the end of its campaign, and promised complete decommissioning of all its weapons, to be witnessed by clergymen from Catholic and Protestant churches. The statement read:


<dl><dd>"The leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93glaigh_na_h%C3%89ireann) has formally ordered an end to the armed campaign. This will take effect from 4pm this afternoon.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>All IRA units have been ordered to dump arms. All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.


</dd></dl> <dl><dd>The IRA leadership has also authorised our representative to engage with the IICD to complete the process to verifiably put its arms beyond use in a way which will further enhance public confidence and to conclude this as quickly as possible.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>We have invited two independent witnesses, from the Protestant and Catholic churches, to testify to this.</dd></dl>

So do not attempt to make it like my people are still at war and committing acts of terrorism... It ended long ago.

You want to debate the IRA.... I'm an Irish American and will gladly show you how we have worked for PEACE and Equality by renouncing Violent struggle as a means to an end.

The Palestinians and the other Arab Countries could learn a lot from us. We've been at peace for years and we work together with our Protestant Brothers and Sisters.

Epic Fail on your part Jafar....

[Marcus Aurelius]

On Edge? Hair Trigger? What the hell are you talking about?

The IRA in a show of good faith and commitment to the peace process unilaterally DISARMED itself and renounced the use of violence.. All actions of the Republican movement are now carried out in the halls of Government and through Negotiations.

Do not attempt to make it like the Irish and British are still at war with one another. They are not. Northern and Southern Ireland have been on a road of PEACE since the Easter Accords signed during the Clinton Administration almost 20 years ago!

From the Proclamation.

On 28 July 2005, the IRA announced the end of its campaign, and promised complete decommissioning of all its weapons, to be witnessed by clergymen from Catholic and Protestant churches. The statement read:


<dl><dd>"The leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93glaigh_na_h%C3%89ireann) has formally ordered an end to the armed campaign. This will take effect from 4pm this afternoon.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>All IRA units have been ordered to dump arms. All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.


</dd></dl> <dl><dd>The IRA leadership has also authorised our representative to engage with the IICD to complete the process to verifiably put its arms beyond use in a way which will further enhance public confidence and to conclude this as quickly as possible.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>We have invited two independent witnesses, from the Protestant and Catholic churches, to testify to this.</dd></dl>

So do not attempt to make it like my people are still at war and committing acts of terrorism... It ended long ago.

You want to debate the IRA.... I'm an Irish American and will gladly show you how we have worked for PEACE and Equality by renouncing Violent struggle as a means to an end.

The Palestinians and the other Arab Countries could learn a lot from us. We've been at peace for years and we work together with our Protestant Brothers and Sisters.

Epic Fail on your part Jafar....

My explanation was simpler... he's full of shit, as usual.

[Voted4Reagan]

My explanation was simpler... he's full of shit, as usual.

I had Relatives that fought in The Rising...

He wants to discuss Irish History I'm fine with that....

Maybe Jafar would like to know about why the Irish and the Jewish Communities get along so well...

I'd be happy to tell him...

[jafar00]

On Edge? Hair Trigger? What the hell are you talking about?

The IRA in a show of good faith and commitment to the peace process unilaterally DISARMED itself and renounced the use of violence.. All actions of the Republican movement are now carried out in the halls of Government and through Negotiations.

Do not attempt to make it like the Irish and British are still at war with one another. They are not. Northern and Southern Ireland have been on a road of PEACE since the Easter Accords signed during the Clinton Administration almost 20 years ago!

From the Proclamation.

On 28 July 2005, the IRA announced the end of its campaign, and promised complete decommissioning of all its weapons, to be witnessed by clergymen from Catholic and Protestant churches. The statement read:


<dl><dd>"The leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93glaigh_na_h%C3%89ireann) has formally ordered an end to the armed campaign. This will take effect from 4pm this afternoon.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>All IRA units have been ordered to dump arms. All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.


</dd></dl> <dl><dd>The IRA leadership has also authorised our representative to engage with the IICD to complete the process to verifiably put its arms beyond use in a way which will further enhance public confidence and to conclude this as quickly as possible.</dd></dl> <dl><dd>We have invited two independent witnesses, from the Protestant and Catholic churches, to testify to this.</dd></dl>

So do not attempt to make it like my people are still at war and committing acts of terrorism... It ended long ago.

You want to debate the IRA.... I'm an Irish American and will gladly show you how we have worked for PEACE and Equality by renouncing Violent struggle as a means to an end.

The Palestinians and the other Arab Countries could learn a lot from us. We've been at peace for years and we work together with our Protestant Brothers and Sisters.

Epic Fail on your part Jafar....

Are you telling me they forgot about the past violence and love each other now? True, they are peaceful now but it could spark off again.

[Gaffer]

Are you telling me they forgot about the past violence and love each other now? True, they are peaceful now but it could spark off again.

Have you ever looked at Irish history? We are talking hundreds of years of serious oppression by the British. The Irish rebellion of 1916 freed most of Ireland, but they never were able to fully expel the Brits from the north. The north was predominately a British settlement. The native Irish were predominately Catholic while the Brits were Protestant. I believe the biggest share of the Brits were from Scotland. They have been there for generations. And they support Britain. The Irish on the other hand want Ireland reunited completely. It became a Catholic verses Protestant conflict because the Brits were Protestant and the Irish Catholic. Religion had nothing to do with the "Troubles", it was about territory. Drummond or Noir could probably expand on this more.

[Voted4Reagan]

Are you telling me they forgot about the past violence and love each other now? True, they are peaceful now but it could spark off again.
No..It wont.

Peace has brought Financial growth and cooperation...

Palestinians and Arabs should try it sometime...

You could learn a lot from us...