What We've Given Up

[Kathianne]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0609-20130609,0,2928406,full.column


...

On Friday, President Barack Obama stood in San Jose, Calif., to reassure a nation overwhelmed, perhaps numbed, at how quickly we've given up our liberty in the name of security.


President Big Brother from Chicago has always believed in the power of his rhetorical skills.

Unfortunately, his aides forgot the speech. There was no script and no teleprompter.


"I think there's only one problem, and that is my remarks are not sitting here," Obama fumbled. "PEOPLE!!! Uh, things, by uh, Friday, uh afternoon things get a little challenged.


"Ah, I'm gonna have a uh, I'm gonna answer a question at the end of the remarks, but I want make sure we get the remarks out. PEOPLE!!! Oh, goodness!!" he said as an aide, scurrying forward with a printed copy of his remarks, all but tripped and fell.


"OH? … folks are sweating back there right now," he said.


With the speech printed for him, he began spinning against the news.


And what news? Something we've suspected for years.


The Guardian, The Washington Post and The Wall Street Journal told us that the federal government can now mine personal data from our phones, our credit card transactions and our Internet searches and postings.


The National Security Agency and the FBI are plugged directly into the electronic brains of the leading American Internet companies, from Google to Microsoft to Apple, the better to monitor the people who were once free. These federal agencies are now able to suck out photographs, audio, video, our email and other documents and track our movements and those of our friends.


According to an unnamed intelligence officer in The Washington Post, these once-secret federal computer powers give the government amazing reach. And that whistle-blower made a statement as devastating as the account in "1984" about Winston Smith and the rat cage.


The Post's whistle-blower said that federal police "quite literally can watch your ideas form as you type."


Think on that one for a moment: The government can see your thoughts building on your keyboard. And we thought Orwell was writing fiction, not history.


This all comes after other news, that the Internal Revenue Service was used to squash dissent and harass conservative and tea party groups; and that phone records of journalists from The Associated Press and Fox News were seized, even though President Big Brother insists that he's all about the First Amendment.


The loss of freedom has hit us so quickly that Obama felt compelled to stand up and make soothing sounds.


"When it comes to telephone calls, nobody is listening to your telephone calls," he said Friday.
He neglected to add that they do track whom you call, when and for how long.

...

[red states rule]

http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/barack-obama-funny-pictures.jpg

[aboutime]

Book of the week.....every week should be...5112

[Abbey Marie]

I've been wondering how many of us on this very board have made a surveillance list for criticizing Obama. Btw, all his stuttering in the quotes above are so still so weird. Not what one expects from a successful lawyer/politico.

[Robert A Whit]

Source is from Kathianne who quoted the Friday Obama speech at San Jose, CA.

"When it comes to telephone calls, nobody is listening to your telephone calls," he said Friday.
He neglected to add that they do track whom you call, when and for how long.

The forum may not know this but in 1957/8, I worked inside a main office of the Pacific Telephone Company of California, owned by Ma Bell.

Upstairs were some printing machines that printed out the calling number and reached number along with time of call.

I doubt they did more than upgrade the equipment due to the advances in technology.

Main point, it did not have conversation at all. Matter of fact, the phone company had up on the walls these red signs that warned all of us to not disclose any conversations we might hear on the phones. All of us had a special telephone with us at all times that enabled us to plug into any phone line and if people were talking, we could listen in on that call.

With our busy schedule to keep up with, it was dumb to simply stay on the phone as they talked. But many of your calls have had parts of them heard over your lifetime. The prison time and fine is huge. It was ten grand when I worked at the phone company and it might be well over $100,000 today.

Hayden was on FOX today and he said records are kept but not contents of calls.

[aboutime]

I've been wondering how many of us on this very board have made a surveillance list for criticizing Obama. Btw, all his stuttering in the quotes above are so still so weird. Not what one expects from a successful lawyer/politico.


Abbey. Most of us wonder the same things. And, while you are talking about his supposed, successful life.

I wonder if it is RACIST to "AX" whether he talks that way to everybody...when not on a camera, or microphone.

We should "AX" Michelle??????

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0609-20130609,0,2928406,full.column I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT MY NAME IS HIGH ON THE BASTARDS'S LIST. F-THEM....-Tyr

[aboutime]

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT MY NAME IS HIGH ON THE BASTARDS'S LIST. F-THEM....-Tyr


Tyr. You are not ALONE. Imagine how much, and how easy it is for our govt. in keeping track of people like Me?

My records are in Cincinatti, and the Pentagon, as permanent records 30 Years THICK!

Can't say "F-them", but anyone certainly could "F' me...anytime they want.

[gabosaurus]

My mom and dad have government files dating back to the 60's. When the FBI was spying on anti-war activists. Both of them were on the no-fly list for a while until my dad filed a complaint with the government.
The government has ALWAYS spied on you. You can't blame it on Obama. Though I am sure you will continue to do so.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

My mom and dad have government files dating back to the 60's. When the FBI was spying on anti-war activists. Both of them were on the no-fly list for a while until my dad filed a complaint with the government.
The government has ALWAYS spied on you. You can't blame it on Obama. Though I am sure you will continue to do so. Now we know why you are so ffed up.... shared too much info.... keep it up. Amazing to find out why you tick so crazily..:laugh:

[gabosaurus]

Now we know why you are so ffed up.... shared too much info.... keep it up. Amazing to find out why you tick so crazily..:laugh:

I am not the crazy one here. You are a whack job who makes up all these ludicrous allegations that Obama has turned the country into a "police state." :rolleyes:

[jimnyc]

My mom and dad have government files dating back to the 60's. When the FBI was spying on anti-war activists. Both of them were on the no-fly list for a while until my dad filed a complaint with the government.
The government has ALWAYS spied on you. You can't blame it on Obama. Though I am sure you will continue to do so.

I always thought I was on some sort of list, from back in the mid-80's when I had my subscription to High Times magazine! :dunno:

[revelarts]

My mom and dad have government files dating back to the 60's. When the FBI was spying on anti-war activists. Both of them were on the no-fly list for a while until my dad filed a complaint with the government.
The government has ALWAYS spied on you. You can't blame it on Obama. Though I am sure you will continue to do so.

We can blame every President that allows it, condones it or uses it.
"it's against the law"

[Robert A Whit]

We can blame every President that allows it, condones it or uses it.
"it's against the law"

What is against the law?

Getting both phone numbers on all calls?

That is all they are doing.

The phone companies have forever had both phone numbers. It is how they were able to bill for calls made.

When Mike Hayden says it is ok, I believe him.

[aboutime]

My mom and dad have government files dating back to the 60's. When the FBI was spying on anti-war activists. Both of them were on the no-fly list for a while until my dad filed a complaint with the government.
The government has ALWAYS spied on you. You can't blame it on Obama. Though I am sure you will continue to do so.


When did those parents finally realize they never had any children?

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

I am not the crazy one here. You are a whack job who makes up all these ludicrous allegations that Obama has turned the country into a "police state." :rolleyes: As if the ffing tyrant hasn't. :laugh2: His spying on everybody confirms it and your denial of the truth reconfirms your brainwashing leftist ideology.. Refusing to admit the obvious is a sure sign of a weak or demented mind gabby. Besides thought you had me on ignore! So much for your honesty here . Nobody quoted me so you've been reading my replies all along and thinking yourself clever. Get this weak minded gal I have been knowing you were doing that for a long time. Twas' why I kept replying to so many of your zany and leftist/muslim loving little posts. -:laugh:--Tyr

[fj1200]

What is against the law?

Getting access to private information without the benefit of a warrant. See the 4th.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645574#post645574)
What is against the law?


Getting access to private information without the benefit of a warrant. See the 4th.

If Robert is okay with his phone records being made available to the government, he should just start a web page and let the whole world know every number he calls, and ever number that calls him.

Or, maybe he feels it's okay to make them semi-public, and just let the government know everyone he calls or who calls him? Not sure how he determined that the government has the right to know his personal business, but no one else does. Seems a little odd of a position to take.

[revelarts]

What is against the law?
Getting both phone numbers on all calls?
That is all they are doing.
The phone companies have forever had both phone numbers. It is how they were able to bill for calls made.
When Mie Hayden says it is ok, I believe him.

do they have a warrant?

oops...didn't see FJ's above..
but still doesn't hurt to repeat it these days i guess

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

Getting access to private information without the benefit of a warrant. See the 4th. First , second, third and fourth mere trivial bumps in the road for Obama to outright ignore or maneuver around . The great Constitutional scholar is so damn wise that the mighty -HE- can decide they are irrelevant and harmful to his personal agenda thus to cast such trash aside. A very revealing insight into the mind of the greatest man ever to have honored the halls of power in Washington D.C. Certainly reaffirms that which I've known about the ffing bastard for many years now. The snails are finally catching up.. :laugh2:-Tyr

[aboutime]

If Robert is okay with his phone records being made available to the government, he should just start a web page and let the whole world know every number he calls, and ever number that calls him.

Or, maybe he feels it's okay to make them semi-public, and just let the government know everyone he calls or who calls him? Not sure how he determined that the government has the right to know his personal business, but no one else does. Seems a little odd of a position to take.


Shucks Marcus. If it wasn't totally against the rules of this forum. We could expect Robert to show us how supportive he is of his statements by telling GOD....and the rest of us...His SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER too!

After all. If you advertise your phone number...possibly on BILLIONS of Internet websites. Good chance, somebody will also get all of your passwords, and S.S. Number too!

Good plan Robert. Though you have me on Ignore.
Think about it.

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645574#post645574)
What is against the law?
Getting both phone numbers on all calls?
That is all they are doing.
The phone companies have forever had both phone numbers. It is how they were able to bill for calls made.
When Mie Hayden says it is ok, I believe him.


do they have a warrant?

Warrants are only needed for specific things.

Imagine rather than phone calls it was purchases you make at stores.

To get a copy of billing records it seems would in most cases need a warrant.

The way they set up the law, they don't need an actual warrant just to get the outgoing number and incoming numbers on a report. Hayden says they don't look at those either unless a terrorist calls a number in the USA.

I wish all of you could take a tour of the inside of the phone company. But alas, it is secret. I used to have my employee ID card that allowed me entrance to them but that card was turned in many years ago.

you could walk into a room where the phone company keeps track of all calls for billing purposes. To bill you, all they need is the two phone numbers plus minutes of the call. Then you can be billed. Those are the things NSA gets.

To get your words, the phone company has to have a warrant and a special machine is hooked up to the phone line. When i worked for the phone company, I saw some of those machines. But we did not have very many of them. Those conversations can't be revealed but for a court order.

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

If Robert is okay with his phone records being made available to the government, he should just start a web page and let the whole world know every number he calls, and ever number that calls him.

Or, maybe he feels it's okay to make them semi-public, and just let the government know everyone he calls or who calls him? Not sure how he determined that the government has the right to know his personal business, but no one else does. Seems a little odd of a position to take. Son of bitches don't have the right to even know what color underwear I put on each morning!! I am a patriotic American citizen that rightly declares they have engaged in treasonous acts against the citizens of this nation by doing this. --Tyr

[Robert A Whit]

Getting access to private information without the benefit of a warrant. See the 4th.

I think you mean actual conversations and of course a court warrant must be obtained. But they are not doing what you imply.

[aboutime]

Son of bitches don't have the right to even know what color underwear I put on each morning!! I am a patriotic American citizen that rightly declares they have engaged in treasonous acts against the citizens of this nation by doing this. --Tyr


TYR. ​I fooled them SOB's, and stopped wearing underwear...just for them! :)

[Robert A Whit]

I could not miss what Marcus said since Tyr posted his words.

Marcus, this is above your pay grade. Had you worked inside the main offices of the phone company, you might understand.

The records given to the NSA are nothing other than the phone number calling you or the phone number you called and the duration of the call. Billing gets those tapes and uses them to make up phone bills. Even if you have a plan to let you call unlimited, they still have those tapes. They do not record conversations without a court order. I was hired by Pacific Bell early in 1957 and The computer revolution hit them but common sense tells me they still have tapes of those numbers to bill people.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Warrants are only needed for specific things.

Imagine rather than phone calls it was purchases you make at stores.

To get a copy of billing records it seems would in most cases need a warrant.

The way they set up the law, they don't need an actual warrant just to get the outgoing number and incoming numbers on a report. Hayden says they don't look at those either unless a terrorist calls a number in the USA.

I wish all of you could take a tour of the inside of the phone company. But alas, it is secret. I used to have my employee ID card that allowed me entrance to them but that card was turned in many years ago.

you could walk into a room where the phone company keeps track of all calls for billing purposes. To bill you, all they need is the two phone numbers plus minutes of the call. Then you can be billed. Those are the things NSA gets.

To get your words, the phone company has to have a warrant and a special machine is hooked up to the phone line. When i worked for the phone company, I saw some of those machines. But we did not have very many of them. Those conversations can't be revealed but for a court order.

You're fucking insane. So, the government can get a list of every call you make, who to, and every incoming call, without a warrant because it's a general thing and not a specific thing?

I suppose they can get a list of every doctor you see too, right? Psychologists, therapists, cardiologists, all of them, because that's a general thing, right?

What a complete dumb ass you are.

[aboutime]

You're fucking insane. So, the government can get a list of every call you make, who to, and every incoming call, without a warrant because it's a general thing and not a specific thing?

I suppose they can get a list of every doctor you see too, right? Psychologists, therapists, cardiologists, all of them, because that's a general thing, right?

What a complete dumb ass you are.


Marcus. Now that.....is really funny. He actually said....."ABOVE YOUR PAYGRADE?"

Looks like we were both right. And stop insulting "Dumb Asses"....please? Good thing I swallowed my coffee!

[Marcus Aurelius]

I could not miss what Marcus said since Tyr posted his words.

Marcus, this is above your pay grade. Had you worked inside the main offices of the phone company, you might understand.

The records given to the NSA are nothing other than the phone number calling you or the phone number you called and the duration of the call. Billing gets those tapes and uses them to make up phone bills. Even if you have a plan to let you call unlimited, they still have those tapes. They do not record conversations without a court order. I was hired by Pacific Bell early in 1957 and The computer revolution hit them but common sense tells me they still have tapes of those numbers to bill people.

Everything is above your pay grade, moron.

The federal government has no right to know who I am calling, or who is calling me, unless I am under investigation, and then they need a warrant. Period.

Just because the technology to list incoming and outgoing calls exists at the phone company, doesn't give the government the right to that information.

Are you okay with the government knowing all those gay sex lines you call, Robert? All the adult novelty sex toy companies you place phone orders with?

You're an incredible moron, Robert.

[aboutime]

Everything is above your pay grade, moron.

The federal government has no right to know who I am calling, or who is calling me, unless I am under investigation, and then they need a warrant. Period.

Just because the technology to list incoming and outgoing calls exists at the phone company, doesn't give the government the right to that information.

Are you okay with the government knowing all those gay sex lines you call, Robert? All the adult novelty sex toy companies you place phone orders with?

You're an incredible moron, Robert.


Don't forget the SS number. We'll all see What Paygrade Robert had with that kind of FREE information too!

[fj1200]

Warrants are only needed for specific things.

Yes, specific things like searches of private information.


The way they set up the law, they don't need an actual warrant just to get the outgoing number and incoming numbers on a report.

I suppose I should have said above that it might not be against the law, so to speak, but it is against the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, so to speak. Do you see the difference.


I think you mean actual conversations and of course a court warrant must be obtained. But they are not doing what you imply.

Nope, not what I mean. It seems they are doing exactly as I imply.

[revelarts]

.....
I wish all of you could take a tour of the inside of the phone company. But alas, it is secret. I used to have my employee ID card that allowed me entrance to them but that card was turned in many years ago.

you could walk into a room where the phone company keeps track of all calls for billing purposes. To bill you, all they need is the two phone numbers plus minutes of the call. Then you can be billed. Those are the things NSA gets.

To get your words, the phone company has to have a warrant and a special machine is hooked up to the phone line. When i worked for the phone company, I saw some of those machines. But we did not have very many of them. Those conversations can't be revealed but for a court order.
If you'll watch this you'll see there are OTHER people who work inside the phone company that SAW a Splitter on one at one countries main Fiber optic hubs that routed ALL of the traffic from the Hub to an NSA room. that fiber optic hub included FULL conversations, e-mail internet data etc etc.
That just one of the people that have let the public know this. i mean Robert the Gov't officials are not giving us the full story. Don't take their word as final. Your telephone experience isn't the whole story, and admittedly your experience is old in the 1st place. there more to this than your admitting.




http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/04/70621
Statement: Mark Klein, April 6, 2006
My background: For 22 and 1/2 years I worked as an AT&T technician, first in New York and then in California.
What I observed first-hand: In 2002, when I was working in an AT&T office in San Francisco, the site manager told me to expect a visit from a National Security Agency agent, who was to interview a management-level technician for a special job. The agent came, and by chance I met him and directed him to the appropriate people.
In January 2003, I, along with others, toured the AT&T central office on Folsom Street in San Francisco -- actually three floors of an SBC building. There I saw a new room being built adjacent to the 4ESS switch room where the public's phone calls are routed. I learned that the person whom the NSA interviewed for the secret job was the person working to install equipment in this room. The regular technician work force was not allowed in the room.
In October 2003, the company transferred me to the San Francisco building to oversee the Worldnet Internet room, which included large routers, racks of modems for customers' dial-in services, and other equipment. I was responsible for troubleshooting problems on the fiber optic circuits and installing new circuits.
While doing my job, I learned that fiber optic cables from the secret room were tapping into the Worldnet circuits by splitting off a portion of the light signal. I saw this in a design document available to me, entitled "Study Group 3, LGX/Splitter Wiring, San Francisco" dated Dec. 10, 2002. I also saw design documents dated Jan. 13, 2004 and Jan. 24, 2003, which instructed technicians on connecting some of the already in-service circuits to the "splitter" cabinet, which diverts some of the light signal to the secret room. The circuits listed were the Peering Links, which connect Worldnet with other networks and hence the whole country, as well as the rest of the world.
One of the documents listed the equipment installed in the secret room, and this list included a Narus STA 6400, which is a "Semantic Traffic Analyzer". The Narus STA technology is known to be used particularly by government intelligence agencies because of its ability to sift through large amounts of data looking for preprogrammed targets. The company's advertising boasts that its technology "captures comprehensive customer usage data ... and transforms it into actionable information.... (It) provides complete visibility for all internet applications."
My job required me to connect new circuits to the "splitter" cabinet and get them up and running. While working on a particularly difficult one with a technician back East, I learned that other such "splitter" cabinets were being installed in other cities, including Seattle, San Jose, Los Angeles and San Diego....



Glenn Greenwald notes the alarming revelation from a CNN Out Front interview (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1305/01/ebo.01.html) between host Erin Burnett and Tim Clemente, "a former FBI counterterrorism agent," where Clemente claimed that the FBI had access to recordings of every phone call made in America:
BURNETT: Tim, is there any way, obviously, there is a voice mail they can try to get the phone companies to give that up at this point. It's not a voice mail. It's just a conversation. There's no way they actually can find out what happened, right, unless she tells them?
CLEMENTE: "No, there is a way. We certainly have ways in national security investigations to find out exactly what was said in that conversation. It's not necessarily something that the FBI is going to want to present in court, but it may help lead the investigation and/or lead to questioning of her. We certainly can find that out.

BURNETT: "So they can actually get that? People are saying, look, that is incredible.

CLEMENTE: "No, welcome to America. All of that stuff is being captured as we speak whether we know it or like it or not."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/04/telephone-calls-recorded-fbi-boston/print




<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/_L20qAijeUk?feature=player_detailpage" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="360" width="640"></iframe>






..What's your job at Folsom Street when you get there, and does that give any more light on what's going on?

Yes. That's when I finally found out what they're doing, by sheer accident. ... My main assignment was to oversee the Internet room, and that meant keeping it going. If there were any trouble calls, I had to answer them. If there's any upgrading work to do, I had to either do it or arrange for others to do it in off hours. Just oversee the flow of work in the Internet room and watch things.
As it turned out, one of the key pieces of spy equipment they installed was in the Internet room, and I discovered that in the process of learning the job. When I got there in October there was still a guy there who had been there years and years and years. He was thoroughly familiar with the whole office, ... and he was showing me the ropes for the Internet room because he was, as it turned out, planning to retire, and he left a couple months later. But in those two months he was showing me the ropes, and at one point I asked him about this secret room, because the secret room is on the sixth floor; the Internet room is on the seventh floor. It didn't seem to be an obvious connection, and I had said to him, "Well, it seems to me that the secret room is right next to the phone switch room, so I assume they're listening to phone calls," and his answer was: "No. Internet." That was his instant answer. He said, "I'll show you."
He was referring to what I found later, was what we called the splitter cabinet. The seventh-floor Internet room has whole lineups of equipment, row after row after row of equipment. In one row, they installed a cabinet that had optical splitters in it. So there were optical splitters, which basically were connected by fiber-optic cable down to the secret room on the sixth floor. ...
What's this splitter doing?

The analogy I can give you, which most people are familiar with is, say you get cable TV in your living room and then want to watch all the channels you get in the living room, you want to get all those same channels in your bedroom. So they install on the cable what they call a splitter, which splits off all the signals, duplicates of the same signals which go to the bedroom. ...
What the splitter does is make a duplicate copy of all the signals going across the fiber-optic cables. ... We're talking about billions and billions of bits of data going across every second, right? And it's going into the router, and it's coming back from the routers in that office. So what they do with the splitter is they intercept that data stream and make copies of all the data, and those copies go down on the cable to the secret room. ...
How do you know for sure that the traffic that's being diverted by the splitters is actually going down to that secret room and not somewhere else in the AT&T system?

Well, several ways. First of all, I had the comment from the technician who worked there, who knows that office like the back of his hand. I also eventually got hold of the documents. The documents, what they are, are wiring documents, which show where things are connected to. They have locations on them, and the documents clearly show the splitter cabinet, which is in the seventh-floor Internet room, is connected down to the secret room on the sixth floor. ...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/interviews/klein.html

[Robert A Whit]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645591#post645591)
Warrants are only needed for specific things.



Yes, specific things like searches of private information.


Dhttp://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit:do you recall telling the phone company they can't have the phone numbers? They need them to bill people with the regular plans.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645591#post645591)
The way they set up the law, they don't need an actual warrant just to get the outgoing number and incoming numbers on a report.



I suppose I should have said above that it might not be against the law, so to speak, but it is against the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, so to speak. Do you see the difference.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit: Why do you think the two phone numbers are secret?

Hey, if they recorded your call and turned that over, I agree. Calls for a warrant and this is what they must do today.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645594#post645594)
I think you mean actual conversations and of course a court warrant must be obtained. But they are not doing what you imply.







Yes, specific things like searches of private information.



I suppose I should have said above that it might not be against the law, so to speak, but it is against the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, so to speak. Do you see the difference.



Nope, not what I mean. It seems they are doing exactly as I imply.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit: If you imply they get billing records, sure. But this has been approved by Congress with a court managing it.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645591#post645591)

Warrants are only needed for specific things.
Yes, specific things like searches of private information.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645591#post645591)

The way they set up the law, they don't need an actual warrant just to get the outgoing number and incoming numbers on a report.



I suppose I should have said above that it might not be against the law, so to speak, but it is against the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, so to speak. Do you see the difference.


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645594#post645594)

I think you mean actual conversations and of course a court warrant must be obtained. But they are not doing what you imply.



Nope, not what I mean. It seems they are doing exactly as I imply.

FJ.. how could you possibly know what you mean? After all, it's not like you said it, is it? Trust Robert, he knows much more about everything than everybody, remember? He's an 'expert'.:rolleyes:

[fj1200]

FJ.. how could you possibly know what you mean? After all, it's not like you said it, is it? Trust Robert, he knows much more about everything than everybody, remember? He's an 'expert'.:rolleyes:

He's quite good at quoting too. :eek:


http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645591#post645591)
Warrants are only needed for specific things.

Yes, specific things like searches of private information.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645591#post645591)
The way they set up the law, they don't need an actual warrant just to get the outgoing number and incoming numbers on a report.

I suppose I should have said above that it might not be against the law, so to speak, but it is against the Constitution, the supreme law of the land, so to speak. Do you see the difference.

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Robert A Whit http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645594#post645594)
I think you mean actual conversations and of course a court warrant must be obtained. But they are not doing what you imply.


Robert, WTF kind of post was that?

[Marcus Aurelius]

Here's a question for Robert, since he claims he knows the Patriot Act so well...

Who knows more about the patriot act, Robert? You... or it's author?


http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/sensenbrenner-says-phone-records-surveillance-goes-beyond-patriot-act-b9928398z1-210512121.html


Former House judiciary chairman Jim Sensenbrenner criticized the Obama administration Thursday over the secret collection of communications records from a Verizon subsidiary. "It goes far, far beyond the Patriot Act," Sensenbrenner, who wrote that 2001 law, said in an interview. "If the Bush administration was (also) doing it, they shouldn't have. ... It doesn't make any difference how long it has been going on. It never should have happened. And since it has happened, it ought to stop."

Revelations about the surveillance program have drawn mixed reactions from both sides of the aisle. But Sensenbrenner said he believes there is a bipartisan consensus on the House judiciary committee that the surveillance program is a serious overreach.

In a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, the Republican congressman from Menomonee Falls called the program "an over-broad interpretation of the (Patriot) Act," and said it raised "questions about whether our constitutional rights are secure."

The surveillance program also drew criticism from former Wisconsin Sen. Russ Feingold, a Democrat who was the lone vote in the U.S. Senate against the Patriot Act in 2001.



Beat that, Mr. FuckinExpert :upyours:

[Marcus Aurelius]

He's quite good at quoting too. :eek:



Robert, WTF kind of post was that?

He gets angry when people don't believe he's the expert on the subject, and he gets sloppy.

[Robert A Whit]

Revelarts

That bit you posted said what I said. They can definitely get both numbers on all calls.

But there are orders that to get the actual conversation, they must get a court order.

Fiber Optics do what copper wires do only better and with added abilities.

We all know that the cops can tap phone lines. I also know from my work in the phone company that warrants are needed to get the phone company to tap the lines.

As to a wise acre calling me an expert, I did that work many years ago. While systems improve, some things are the same. Such as warrants. I doubt the wire tap machines they use today are like those we had, but I know they can tap phones at the central offices.

Not one word was said by me to get the hostile action by some who enjoy the cage.

Rev, I know for a fact that conversations can be listened to. But if you want just terrorists, why the hell record all phone calls? This government lacks the personnel to listen to each phone call.

We get millions of them daily.

If you wanted to do this operation,. focus on terrorists. That is what Bush ordered them to do.

Tell me this, when I worked for Ma Bell, did I have a warrant to listen to people talk?

All I had to do was plug in my set and I was invisible to those talking on the phone.

[fj1200]

Tell me this, when I worked for Ma Bell, did I have a warrant to listen to people talk?

If you think closely enough you'll have answered your own question.

[Marcus Aurelius]

If you think closely enough you'll have answered your own question.

did you really just ask him to think???

[Marcus Aurelius]

Here's a question for Robert, since he claims he knows the Patriot Act so well...

Who knows more about the patriot act, Robert? You... or it's author?


http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/sensenbrenner-says-phone-records-surveillance-goes-beyond-patriot-act-b9928398z1-210512121.html



Former House judiciary chairman Jim Sensenbrenner criticized the Obama administration Thursday over the secret collection of communications records from a Verizon subsidiary. "It goes far, far beyond the Patriot Act," Sensenbrenner, who wrote that 2001 law, said in an interview. "If the Bush administration was (also) doing it, they shouldn't have. ... It doesn't make any difference how long it has been going on. It never should have happened. And since it has happened, it ought to stop."

Revelations about the surveillance program have drawn mixed reactions from both sides of the aisle. But Sensenbrenner said he believes there is a bipartisan consensus on the House judiciary committee that the surveillance program is a serious overreach.

In a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, the Republican congressman from Menomonee Falls called the program "an over-broad interpretation of the (Patriot) Act," and said it raised "questions about whether our constitutional rights are secure."

The surveillance program also drew criticism from former Wisconsin Sen. Russ Feingold, a Democrat who was the lone vote in the U.S. Senate against the Patriot Act in 2001.


Beat that, Mr. FuckinExpert :upyours:

we're all patiently waiting for you to answer the question, Robert. Who knows more about the Patriot Act? You, or the author???

It's a simple question. Why won't you answer it???

[jimnyc]

we're all patiently waiting for you to answer the question, Robert. Who knows more about the Patriot Act? You, or the author???

It's a simple question. Why won't you answer it???

He's got you on ignore, supposedly. But let's not push things. If he has you on ignore, please don't egg him on. The feuding ruins a lot of these threads!

[aboutime]

He's got you on ignore, supposedly. But let's not push things. If he has you on ignore, please don't egg him on. The feuding ruins a lot of these threads!


Jim. You constantly ask us to back off, not push things, be nice, play nice, and pretend we don't see what is taking place.
Problem is. The one member who NEVER CEASES to continue...which draws warnings to US. Get's what most of us see as a Free Ride, because we are expected to Feel Sorry, or apathetic due to one member's past. BOO HOO!

That one member IS NOT the only human being on this forum who has had a hard life. I lost all of my immediate family within three years. That's a Mom, Dad, Only sister, and two brothers. Am I getting any preferential treatment because you now know my past????
NO. And I haven't asked for any.
But One Member. Who shall remain nameless here. JUST CAN'T STOP PISSING EVERYONE OFF. And he is special?????

[red states rule]

I am not the crazy one here. You are a whack job who makes up all these ludicrous allegations that Obama has turned the country into a "police state." :rolleyes:

Do we need to go back and list all the threads you started on Pres Bush and what you accused him of?

I seem to recall you were opposed to Bush gathering info on phone calls either starting or going to known terrorist countries - but you do not seem to care about Obama's administration gathering info on all calls made in the US. Again, your double standards are showing again Gabby