Surprise Gitmo Rulings - Good news, but there is a long way to go yet

[Rahul]

The latest Gitmo rulings are a welcome :fu:to the current administration. :)



http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070605/pl_afp/usattacksguantanamojustice_070605045507;_ylt=AjJN5 PWi86qeNJYtZD7rKGy9IxIF

GUANTANAMO BAY US NAVAL BASE, Cuba (AFP) - The legal front of the US government's "war on terror" suffered a stunning reversal Monday as military judges threw out charges against a Canadian-born Al-Qaeda fighter and Osama bin Laden's ex-driver.

The surprise rulings on Toronto native Omar Ahmed Khadr, 20, and Salim Ahmed Hamdan threatened to torpedo the government's pursuit of Guantanamo Bay terror suspects through new-look military tribunals.

In both cases, the judges found that they had no jurisdiction to proceed with military commission trials, as neither Khadr nor Hamdan had been classified as an "unlawful enemy combatant" as required by a recent US law.

Khadr was just 15 when he was captured in Afghanistan, accused of killing a US army medic in a hand-grenade attack.

Sporting a straggly beard and dressed in olive-green prison garb and flip-flops, he stared on impassively as Colonel Peter Brownback issued his potentially far-reaching ruling.

"It was very surprising," the defendant's sister, Zaynab Khadr, told AFP in Canada. "But we were very happy to hear the news. I hope he will be released soon."

... ...



There is still a long way to go, though. The men still won't be released, and they are just two of the many detainees ...



However, lawyers said that both Khadr and Hamdan will remain in legal limbo at this base in southeast Cuba along with nearly 400 other detainees rounded up or handed over to US forces since the September 11 attacks of 2001.




"If the administration has any sense at all, this will be the death knell for the commissions," Jennifer Daskal of Human Rights Watch said, calling for terror suspects to be tried in US civilian courts.


Hopefully Jennifer is right.

[theHawk]

Why would you want them released? You think people should be able to kill US soldiers on the battle field then just be released? You obviously share alligence with the Jihadists.

[Doniston]

The latest Gitmo rulings are a welcome :fu:to the current administration. :)



There is still a long way to go, though. The men still won't be released, and they are just two of the many detainees ...





Hopefully Jennifer is right. I do definitely agree. but it sure is a slap-down for Bush.

[Doniston]

Why would you want them released? You think people should be able to kill US soldiers on the battle field then just be released? You obviously share alligence with the Jihadists. After four years or so, they are still under suspicion "Without" having been tried or convicted. Who says they had Killed soldiers on the battle field,(a different story) or elsewhere???

[Gaffer]

It makes no difference to these lefties if these prisoners are guilty. It's all about getting Bush. They don't care if these murderers are cut loose in their own neighborhoods as long as Bush looks bad.

[theHawk]

After four hears or so, they are still under suspicion "Without" having been tried or convicted. Who says they had Killed soldiers on the battle field,(a different story) or elsewhere???

Oh so someone just imagined an grenade killing an imaginary army medic. Keep in mind they threw out the cases due to jurisdiction, not because there wasn't enough evidence to support the charges.

:pee:

[Rahul]

First off, I find this habit of assigning -ve rep points to anyone whose opinion you do not agree with to be most juvenile. But, whatever makes you happy ... :)


Why would you want them released?

Because I believe in the "innocent until proven guilty" principle, and these people have not been proven to be guilty.



You think people should be able to kill US soldiers on the battle field then just be released?

There isn't any evidence of this, and even if they did kill US soldiers, they should be treated as POW's and they are not being treated as such.



You obviously share alligence with the Jihadists.

Nonsense. Asking for the accused to be given a fair trial is not supporting Jihadists, but supporting the "innocent until proven guilty" principle.

You apparently believe in "guilty until proven innocent" ...

[Rahul]

It makes no difference to these lefties if these prisoners are guilty.

Perhaps you could provide proof of their guilt.

[Rahul]

I do definitely agree. but it sure is a slap-down for Bush.

Let's hope things continue in this vein.

:beer:

[Monkeybone]

they treat them like POWs and then get yelled at about inhuman they are and so when they are put in a place like Guantno, ppl yell about why they have innocent ppl and not POWs in there

[Rahul]

they treat them like POWs and then get yelled at about inhuman they are and so when they are put in a place like Guantno, ppl yell about why they have innocent ppl and not POWs in there

They are not being treated like prisoners of war and are not afforded the same rights. There is also plenty of abuse going on.




http://www.nonviolence.org/2004/11/its_official_us_abuse_at_gitmo.php

It's Official: US Abuse at Gitmo

While the images of U.S. soliders torturing iraqi prisoners at Al Grahib Prison in Badgdad have been broadcast around the world, US officials have frequently reassured us that conditions at the U.S. detention camp in Guantamano Bay, Cuba, were acceptable and in accord with the Geneva Convention’s rules for treatment of prisoners. As proof the Pentagon and Bush Administration have frequently cited the fact that the International Red Cross regularly inspects prison conditions at Guantamano. They forgot to tell us what they’ve seen.

A confidential report prepared by the International Red Cross this summer found that conditions at Guantamano Bay were “tantamount to torture.” Strong words from a cautious international body. Because of the way the IRC works, its reports are not made available to the public but instead presented to the accused government, in the hope that they will correct their practices. In predicable fashion, the Bush Adminstration privately denied any wrongdoing and kept the IRC findings secret. In a display of incredible audacity it then defended itself from other accusations of torture by citing the IRC’s presence at Guantanamo, conveniently omitting the IRC’s strongly-worded criticisms. Amazing really.

The IRC report is still secret. We only know of it second-hand, from a memo obtained by the Times that quotes from some of its findings (“Red Cross Finds Detainee Abuse in Guantanamo”http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/30/politics/30gitmo.html, Nov 29). What kind of stuff is going on there? The Times recently interviewed British prisoners who had been detained in Afghanistan and iraq and sent to Guantanamo Bay. Here’s one story:

One one regular procedure was making uncooperative prisoners strip to their underwear, having them sit in a chair while shackled hand and foot to a bolt in the floor, and forcing them to endure strobe lights and loud rock and rap music played through two close loudspeakers, while the air-conditioning was turned up to maximum levels.

It’s not needles under fingernails or electrodes to the privates, but it is indeed “tantamount to torture.” While it was hard to believe these prisoners’ stories when they were first published a few months ago, they become much more credible in light of the IRC conclusions.

We still don’t know about what’s happening in the camp. The Bush Administration has the power, not to mention the duty, to immediately release International Red Cross reports. But the United States has chosen to suppress the report. No torturing government has ever admitted to its actions. Saddam Hussein himself denied wrongdoing when he ran the Al Grahib prison and used it for torture. We rely on bodies like the International Red Cross to keep us honest.

There are those who defend torture by appealing to our fears, many of which are indeed grounded in reality. We’re at war, the enemy insurgents are playing dirty, Osama bin Laden broke any sort of international conventions when he sent airliners into the World Trade Center. Very true. But the United States has a mission. I believe in the idealistic notion that we should be a beacon to the world. We should always strive for the moral high ground and invite the world community to join us. We haven’t been doing that lately. Yes it’s easier to follow the lead of someone like Saddam Hussein and just torture anyone we suspect of plotting against us. But do we really want him as our role model?

One has to wonder what moral ground the US has here. They accuse Saddam of committing atrocities, yet are committing them in their own prisons.




http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Amnesty_International_releases_accounts_of_Gitmo_0 110.html

Read Jumah al-Dossari's story. This details US detention camps at Kandahar as well as Gitmo.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1770000/images/_1771816_guan1.jpg

US custody in Afghanistan

"After they handed me over to the American forces and the Pakistani soldiers went away, my real suffering started in this first stage when the interpreter came to me. My eyes were still blindfolded. She said to me, "you have to obey orders, don’t talk and you will be searched by soldiers". After that, the soldiers threw me down on the tarmac of the airport and started searching me carefully and violently.

Then took me firmly and violently to the plane and put me on the floor of the plane like you set down and tie down cargo boxes. They tied me up with chains and my hands were bound behind me. They removed the Pakistani soldiers’ blindfold from my eyes and put a sack-like bag on my head. They tied me with chains on the floor of the plane and the chains were tied to rings in the floor of the plane. Their way of tying you up was complicated and was very tight against our bodies. They put chains across our stomachs from the front and across our backs from behind and they bent my head forward.

When we were all in the plane - there were approximately 30 of us – they closed the plane door which from behind said "designed to carry machinery". After they closed the door, the soldiers started shouting, screaming and insulting us with the most vulgar insults and nasty curses. They started beating us and took pictures of us on a camera; I could see the flash. I had a violent pain in my stomach – I had had an operation on my stomach and there was a piece of metal in it; when I complained about the severity of the pain, a soldier came and started kicking me in my stomach with his military boot until I vomited blood.

I do not know how many hours I was in that state as we went from the base in Kohat to Kandahar Airport where there is an American military base. How it hurts me to look back at these painful memories; the tragic event on the plane was only the start of the horrors waiting for me in the American army camp in Kandahar.

"We arrived at Kandahar airport after midnight. It was a Friday night at the beginning of January 2002. After we landed at the airport, we were taken down on to the tarmac and the weather was extremely cold. They made us lie down on the ground of the airport and we did not have clothing to protect against the cold as the Pakistani soldiers had stolen our clothes, even our underwear and our possessions. The soldiers then started beating us and walking on us and we were lying face down. The beating and kicking was so severe that the sackcloth bag fell one of the brother’s eyes. He saw the soldiers pointing their weapons at us so he shouted, "they’re going to kill us, brothers"; one of the soldiers hit him on the head with the butt of his weapon and he lost consciousness…

After several hours of this beating and the severe cold, they made us stand in one line. They started to wrap a very strong wire around our right arms; each of us was tied at a distance of about two metres from the person in front of him. After they pulled this wire, they started making us run towards the unknown. When we approached the tents which had previously been an instalment, they started to insult us savagely. The prisoners started shouting and crying because of their severe pain – there were many young people with us – and the soldiers increased their insults and beatings and those of us who fell started to drag themselves on the grounds on the asphalt of the airfield and the others continued to jog.

As I have already mentioned, I still had the Pakistani shackle which made it hard for me to walk, so I was one of those who fell and was dragging himself along on the asphalt. I tried to stand and walk but I could not. After that, we entered the tents and they started beating us extremely violently; I fainted several times because of the severity of the beating. Once I fell when I fainted and found my head under the boot of a soldier who started beating me severely.

I fainted again and woke only to find the soldier urinating on my head and back; he was roaring with laughter. I was still lying on my stomach; he raised my head by the hair and started kicking me in my face with his boot and put it inside my mouth until my face and my lips were cut, my face was swollen and my blood was flowing copiously. Then he started hitting me on my eye; I almost went blind, were it not for the grace and mercy of Allah. We were in this situation for a long time. Then the soldiers started taking us one by one to another tent. When it was my turn, a soldier came, he had an electric saw with him and he cut off the Pakistani shackle and replaced it with an American one. They took me to that tent pulling me by my face.

In that tent, there was an Egyptian interpreter with a dirty tongue who cursed us, our families and our honour in strong terms. He shouted at us, "you’re from Al Qaeda, you’re terrorists, you’re dogs" and other insults that I am loathe to repeat. Then they made me and the other prisoners take off all our clothes, most of which were torn from the severe beating we had received. Then they photographed us and examined us. My blood was everywhere, my face was swollen from being beaten and kicked and I had cuts all over my body. All of this was captured on video and I have pictures of myself in this state; an investigator showed me some of these pictures during a subsequent investigation session in Cuba. We were not allowed to talk or complain; anyone who complained was beaten severely.

Most of the beating was concentrated on sensitive areas, like the eyes, the nose and the genitals. Then they took us to an old metallic building designed for plane maintenance at the airport. Inside, they had divided it into several enclosures fenced off by barbed wire. They made us all enter one of the enclosures which looked like a sheep pen. While the soldiers were taking me to this part of the tent, they beat me really brutally and banged my head against the iron building. I was not wearing shoes, I was walking barefoot and they made walk on the barbed wire.

When I entered this metallic building, it was dawn so we prayed the dawn prayer. I prayed sitting down because I was so exhausted and tired and in pain. In the building, they [illegible] lights high above us so that we could not see the soldiers who were in places above us in the building. If any one of us moved, they would shout at us loudly and threaten us. After almost an hour or more, they started taking us one by one to the investigation tent.

When they wanted to take one of us, they would order us to lie on our stomachs on the floor, and then they would tie our hands behind our backs. When it was my turn, two soldiers took me. I was barefoot and they beat me before I met the investigator. They banged my head against the metal building and made me walk on the barbed wire. They raised my hands from behind my back so high that my shoulders were almost dislocated. When I entered the investigation tent, I found that there were two Americans among the investigators, one of whom was white and the other was black. I said to them, "why are you torturing me and you haven’t even started questioning me? What do you want from me? Give me a piece of paper and I will sign anything you want".

He said to me, "there is no torture here and there are no beatings". He could clearly see the state I was in! After they had finished questioning me, he left and I did not see him again. The soldiers came back and beat me and they took me to a place where there were splinters of glass. They forced me to walk over them barefoot, then one of the soldiers pushed me from behind. I fell on to the glass on my face. Allah protected my eyes from the glass splinters. Several prisoners were injured in their eyes and more than three brothers were blinded. The soldiers wanted to blind them so they threw these brothers who lost their sight on their faces while their hands were tied behind their backs and they fell either on rocks, the glass or something else, they [illegible] their eyes and they complained only to Allah.

As for broken noses, many of us had our noses broken, including me, from the beatings. Then the soldiers took me back to a place outside the metallic building in a quad in one of the enclosures fenced off by barbed wire. One of the soldiers who had brought me there had beaten me and I was in a terrible state, so I told him that I wanted to see a doctor. He looked at me suspiciously and said, "a doctor?! We brought you here to kill you!" Then he shouted "don’t speak again" in my face. At noon, they took me to an enclosure fenced in by barbed wire in the middle of which was a tent that had no screen against the elements; the ceiling and supports of the tent were made of wood and there were approximately 20 to 25 prisoners inside.

This is how the camps in Kandahar were. When I saw my fellow prisoners, I felt a little at ease because I found that most of them had suffered what I had suffered. Most of our clothes were torn because we had been beaten so much. We were not allowed to talk. They gave each of us one blanket to sleep on and one to cover ourselves with. The weather in Kandahar in the winter is extremely cold. They did not allow us to perform our ablutions to pray or perform ghusl (full ablution). They only gave us one pitcher of water in the day and at night with each meal. These pitchers were made in the UAE and Bahrain. The soldiers constantly repeated the word "crusade". They would also use the phrase "holy war" frequently. They would often curse Allah and the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) with most vile insults. Representatives from the ICRC brought us copies of the Koran printed in Pakistan. The soldiers treated the Koran terribly: they threw it on the floor during investigations of the camps. They gave us buckets to relieve ourselves in; when these buckets were full of waste, faeces and urine, they would empty them into a large barrel. These barrels were taken outside the camp. Once, a soldier came, he had a copy of the Koran in his hand. He said, "this is your Holy Koran in English", and he put it in the bucket full of faeces and urine. As he did so, he roared with laughter. This was repeated many times. All the prisoners, especially those who were with me in the camp and in the other camps, saw this.

Once, when they were clearing the buckets out into the barrel, we saw a copy of the Koran floating above the faeces, urine and waste in one of the barrels. There is no power and no strength save in Allah! The copies of the Koran were checked everyday in a rather crude manner; they were thrown on the floor and the Korans were soon ripped and the soldiers would throw them in the bin before our very eyes.

On many occasions, we found copies of the Koran with the soldiers’ footprints on them and some of them had filthy, offensive curses and swear words in English written on them. I saw a soldier come in during a camp inspection and threw the Koran on the floor, then she started turning the pages with her boot before kicking it into a corner of the camp. The soldiers in Bagram would play with the Koran as if they were playing football, as well as in Kandahar. I saw this myself. They would take copies of the Koran, tear pages out of it and clean and shine their boots with them. They would also tear out the pages to clean the faeces and urine out of the faeces buckets. Several soldiers did this and most of the prisoners saw them do this.

"During that time, I was moved to the camp clinic because of the terrible state of my health. They would take me for investigations which were mostly held at night; they would beat me severely and tell me to confess that I was a terrorist!! Once, from the excessive and severe beatings, one of my foot shackles broke. Once, they poured boiling hot liquid on my head and the investigator stubbed his cigarette out on my foot. I said to him, "why are you treating me like this?" He then took a cigarette and stubbed it out on my right wrist and said, "in the name of Christ and the Cross I am doing this". Once, they had beaten me so severely that my clothes were ripped and my genitals were exposed. I tried to cover myself up but they started kicking me with their boots.

They stripped me of my clothes and lay me flat on the ground. One of the soldiers urinated on my head and my face after one of the other soldiers had raised my head by the hair. After that, a soldier brought petrol and injected it into my penis. I screamed because it was extremely painful. They took me back to the camp after a long night of torture. I was bleeding where they had injected the petrol and it was very swollen so I asked to see the doctor. When I met the doctor and told him what had happened, he became very angry and said, "you’re a liar and a terrorist and you deserve worse than this". He left me and went away. When it was almost sunset, they took me to the investigation tent, the torture tent, and beat me as they were taking me there. I saw the investigator and he was really angry with me; he said, "you’ve been complaining to the doctor about us?! We’ll show you what we’ll do to you" and they hit me really hard all over my body. They started kicking me with their boots and then they took me to another camp while I was blindfolded. I heard an Afghani prisoner scream; he was crying and saying, "O Allah, O God", in Afghani and other words in his language that I did not understand. When I approached the door of the camp, they took off the blindfold.

I saw an Afghani brother in his fifties, he had a lot of white hair in his beard, and he was tied to the ground. Soldiers were holding on to his shackles and he was naked and lying on his stomach. One of the soldiers was sexually assaulting him. One of the soldiers had a video camera with him and was taping this distressing scene. The investigator said to me, "he was with the Taliban and he doesn’t want to confess" They made me really scared; I became hysterical and I almost went mad out of fear. They put the blindfold back on my eyes and took me back to the same tent where they were beating me. The investigator said to me, "if you complain again or talk about what happens here, we will do the same thing to you that we did to that Afghan terrorist". Then he hit me very hard and they took me back to my tent.

"O Allah, how hard these painful memories are. Now, as I am writing about what happened here and these events pass through my mind, I feel as if I will lose my mind, my body is shaking and I am overcome by strange, painful feelings. Did I really live through those events myself? Images of that old Afghani man, crying and cursing them are still in my mind, images of those hours I spent being tortured still haunt me and what was to come was even worse. Once, while being tortured, the investigator brought a small device like a mobile phone but it was an electric shock device. He started shocking my face, my back, my limbs and my genitals. They plucked out most of my beard.

Beatings were not the only form of torture; sleep deprivation was also used. The soldiers would wake us up at night for inspections; sometimes they would make us stand in a line, after pointing their weapons at us, they would tell us that they were under orders to fire if any one of us moved. We would stand there for many hours like that in the freezing cold. They also starved us; they only gave us a meal at noon and a meal at midnight. They would wake us up and anyone who was too tired or was late in getting up would be denied having a meal.

Representatives from the ICRC brought us some loaves of coarse bread; the soldiers gave each of us half a loaf in the afternoon but when some of the prisoners spoke to the ICRC representatives, the soldiers only gave us a quarter of the loaf and threw the rest in the rubbish bin before our eyes. When the soldiers woke us up for inspections, if anyone did not hear their call, either because they were asleep, ill or completely exhausted, they would punish everyone in the tent. This was always their style of punishment: collective punishment. The soldiers put a cross above the mosque of Kandahar Airport and also on the airport towers and some watch towers set up by the American forces when they occupied the airport.

Once, they took an elderly Afghan to the investigation tent. He was in his seventies. They dragged him away for investigation. When they returned, they threw him on the ground; he was unconscious. One of the ICRC representatives was talking to an Afghan in this same tent and saw everything himself. After the soldiers left, two Afghans went to him to carry him inside; whenever the soldiers wanted to take one of us out of the tent or inspect the tent, they would order us to go outside to the barbed wire fence where we would stand in a line without moving and face the fence, thus showing them our backs. Then, when the Afghans carried him and took him inside the tent and he regained consciousness, he started shaking and could not speak or move.

"They started preparing to move us to Cuba. When it was my turn and I was in approximately the third group to be moved to Guantбnamo, I was moved to another tent with several people. We were next to an empty tent in which they put Afghans from the northern states and Shabarghan. A number of them were brought there and the soldiers beat them extremely severely; their blood was everywhere and some of them had broken noses and blood poured from them. An ICRC representative saw this with his own eyes. The following day, they started taking us to the transfer preparation tent.

Transfer to Guantбnamo Bay, Cuba

"It was midday when my turn came; they took me to that tent and put me an isolated area. A soldier came; he had a box which he was putting specimens into so cut off my beard and put it in there. Then they made me sit on a chair. A soldier came with a pair of scissors and cut all my clothes. They shaved my hair, beard and moustache and then took naked to a big tent in which there were several prisoners and many soldiers. They then took our pictures and made us wear the orange clothes.

One of the soldiers at the door of the tent had a police dog with him. The dog was really vicious. His leash was in the soldier’s hand. Then they bound our hands with a shackle that had a chain that was wrapped around the waist. They then tied them to the metal shackles to prevent our hands from moving. Then they made us wear muffs on our ears and goggles so that we could not see. We were then put in the next tent from midday until night. We sat without food or drink, being unable to relieve ourselves or pray so we prayed by gesticulating. It was extremely cold and they put coarse gloves on our hands and they covered them in very strong adhesive tape. Very late at night, they started taking us to the plane….

They tied our legs to the seats or to the floor of the plane. My forehead and my nose were injured by the goggles, my hands became puffy and my legs were swollen because of the pressure placed on them by the shackles. "Then soldiers injected a shot of morphine into our thighs, then the plane took off and flew for many hours, I do not know how many, and then landed in a country in which the weather was hot.

They then put us on another plane and transferred us roughly and violently. This plane took off and flew us into the unknown. We had no idea of where they were taking us. The second stage in Kandahar, with its pain and affliction, had ended. I had spent two weeks there from the beginning to mid January, two [illegible] weeks, full of sadness, pain and torture, only to start a new stage of afflictions in American detention camps, a stage of organised torture.

In this stage, it was not only the soldiers who tortured us but also the doctors, nurses, investigators, translators and officials. Each of them played their part in torturing us, physically and psychologically, and all of this in the name of the law.

"The third stage started on the day the plane landed us in Guantбnamo in Cuba; we did not know where we were. The soldiers put us on a military bus that had no seats in it. They made us sit on the floor of the bus. A translator who was Lebanese came and said, "you are at an American base and you mustn’t talk or move. You have to keep your heads down". Then he swore at us and shouted at us. If any one of us moved, he would be beaten severely.

When it was my turn to get off the bus, I could not move because I was extremely stressed and exhausted. They told to me get up right now and shouted at me. When I wanted to tell them that I could not move, they started hitting me and told me again that I was not allowed to talk. Two soldiers carried me and threw me from the bus, while I was shackled, onto the ground.

They then took us to Camp X Ray. They put us in a place in the afternoon and left us there until the next night; we were still wearing the same shackles from the day before. At night, it was my turn; they took me to a big tent and took my picture and fingerprints. There was an interpreter with them who treated us really badly. They took me to a cement building which had a shower. They stripped me of my clothes and gave me soap but did not take the goggles off my eyes. The water was very cold and when I put the soap on my head, they shouted at me that my time was up; they were well aware that I had not bathed for more than a month and a half. They then made me lie on the dirty floor and made me wear a very tight jumpsuit. I was then taken to where they have the cages. I was put in a cage at midnight. I was completely exhausted.

The journey from Kandahar to Cuba was very long and they had given us shots of morphine and hallucinatory drugs and sleep-inducing drugs. When I was put in the cage, a soldier told me, "you mustn’t talk, you mustn’t touch the mesh, you mustn’t cover your head and your hands when you sleep and you have to stay in the middle of the cage". He also me that there was a toilet outside the cage; if I needed to relieve myself, I would have to ask one of the soldiers. In the cage, there were two buckets, one had water in it and the other was empty. The soldier said that the empty bucket was for urine. The soldiers had only recently finished building our camp, Camp Bravo, the second camp. The soldiers were still building the other cages and camps as I was in the third wave of those who went to Cuba as I mentioned. There were nearly 30 detainees in each new batch of prisoners. I put my head down and I did not feel [illegible] until the second day at the time for the dawn prayer.

"It was then that my suffering started. If we wanted to go to the outside toilet, a portaloo, the soldiers would take us violently and would look at our genitals; even the female soldiers did that. They would stand outside the door which was open while we relieved ourselves. After that, we started using the urine buckets to defecate to avoid those filthy people who had no mercy in their hearts and to protect our dignity from the male and female soldiers who would touch and play with our genitals. When a new batch of detainees came from Afghanistan, they would force us to go a particular place and would not allow us to stand, to pray or make the adhan (call to prayer) for many hours until the new batch had been through what we had been through when we arrived.

In the first month, we were not allowed to make the adhan, to talk or make ghusl (full ablution washing the whole body) if we were impure in the cages. We were only allowed to wash at specific times in the week; they would take us to the bathing area in four cages prepared for that purpose. There, they would order us to take off our clothes and strip ourselves off completely. When our bathing time ended – we had two minutes – they would give us towels and then give us our clothes back. There was and still is very, very little food and there were snakes, scorpions and poisonous insects that would enter the cages. At that time, they also distributed copies of the Koran to us; the soldiers insulted us when we came out of the cages and threw them on the floor, inspected them and kicked them with their shoes.

When it was time to change our clothes, they would give us tight clothes and forced us to take hallucinogenic drugs whose effect lasted for more than two weeks. When they wanted to take one of us, they would force us to sit on our knees and put our hands above our heads; some soldiers would press our heads through the mesh so that we were up against the mesh when the soldiers entered and our noses were hurt by these actions. When we went for investigation, the soldiers would abuse us and would push our heads down and would hasten us along even though we were shackled, or when we went to the clinic or whenever we left the cages for any reason. They would terrorise us with police dogs and would wake us up at night to get our serial numbers.

The Emergency Reaction Forces (ERFs) would be set upon us and some of the detainees would be punished by having all their possessions taken away and being forced to sleep on the cement on cold nights. Then there was the first hunger strike in Cuba which led to an all-out hunger strike.

In our camp, Camp B, there was a Saudi detainee from Ta’if called Muhammad Al-Quraysh. He was praying the duha (midmorning) prayer and had covered the lower half of his body with a towel because the clothes they had given us were too tight. One of the wardens told him to take the towel off. Muhammad was praying and did not reply. The warden ordered a soldier to go into his cage. He waited until Muhammad prostrated in his prayer and then went up to him. He wanted to snatch the towel away from him, so he pushed him to the ground and interrupted his prayer. He took the towel and scuffled with Muhammad. The warden entered and pushed Muhammad and then they left. We started to say "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is the greatest) together and all the camps started to say "Allahu Akbar"; the whole place echoed with chants of "Allahu Akbar". That same day, soldiers had abused the Koran in one of the camps. Then we all threw our things out of the slit in the door. When we started chanting, the whole place echoed "Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar". The soldiers started running away.

One soldier was driving an armoured cruiser outside the camp, when he heard "Allahu Akbar", he turned the cruiser and got down from it and started running. The management operated the security lock on the camp and sent the Emergency Reaction Forces (ERFs) and police dogs to us. The dogs were shaking as we chanted. They brought cameras because the Americans do not do anything without video cameras and they taped us and put the films in a secret archive; the interpreter told us about the archive. Then we went on hunger strike for nearly two weeks. Allah then made things slightly easier for us because of this hunger strike; new orders were issued not to throw or inspect the Koran.

After this, many things happened. They brought us new shackles that had a chain around the waist extending from the hand shackles and a chain linking the hand shackles and the feet shackles; exactly like the ones they bound Omar Mukhtar with in the film Lion of the Desert. These shackles were made in Britain. There were also attacks: the detainees were beaten and insulted. Other things happened too but what I have mentioned is sufficient. Perhaps most of it has been mentioned in the media.

Torture and ill-treatment in Guantбnamo Bay

"They would take us for investigation with civil and military investigators. They threatened us and they threatened me personally by taking out their weapons and pointing them at me. They threatened me that I would be killed if I went back to my country.

Many things happened to me at this time and I was attacked in a similar way that I was in Kandahar; I do not wish to mention the horror of these attacks. During investigations, I was threatened with rape, attacks on my family in Saudi Arabia, my daughter being kidnapped, and my murder – assassination – by their spies in the Middle East if I went back to Saudi Arabia. I was threatened with being deported to America, to American prisons. There are American prisoners waiting for people like me. [2 pages missing]

"As for the Emergency Reaction Forces (ERFs), one could go on forever but I will only mention some general incidents that happened. There was a group of soldiers whose emblem and badge was 9/4. These soldiers were the most detestable and abusive and abused our rights...There were other groups as well who all had the same hate for us. They would deploy the ERFs for the most trivial matter so that there was an excuse to attack us and vent their secret hate with the blessing of their officers in charge. If they went into the cage of a detainee, his blood would be sure to flow or they would break his bones; seldom would they exit without injuring the defenceless detainee.

Perhaps I will mention some of the incidents I saw myself here. They went to a detainee and put his head in the toilet. The toilets in Camp Delta are iron, Turkish-style toilets and then they flushed his head down the toilet until he almost died. They went to a detainee and started beating his head against the toilet rim until he lost consciousness and he could not see for more than 10 hours. He suffered facial spasms as a result. They went to a detainee when he was praying the maghrib (sunset) prayer and beat him severely. That was in isolation block I India. On that same day, they came and beat me.

At that time, we were angry because the duty chief supervisor cursed Allah and banged on the doors of our cells and said, "Merry Christmas"; that was on Christmas day 2002. There were many, many attempts to gouge the eyes of the detainees and to hit them in their private parts. They would beat them when they were ill and would hit them on their injuries.

One detainee, called Abdul Aziz Al-Masri, was ill and was asleep in the hospital. These soldiers went and beat him very badly in the hospital in front of the doctors and nurses. His injuries were excessive and caused his spine to break. He is now hemiplegic. They are now trying to operate on him but he is refusing out of fear that they will play with his back and make it worse rather than make it better as their operations often do. These kinds of incidents happen often. They would make sending them to the detainees an excuse for incidents in which we would suffer extensive injuries, severe disfiguration and fractures as there was no one monitoring or following up their actions. Rather, their officers and officials gave them the orders. They tortured the detainees in the name of the law. There are too many incidents to mention or even count. Perhaps those I have mentioned are enough because many of these incidents have been mentioned in the media.

"I shall return to my story and my suffering; they would take me for investigations very often; I have had over 600 investigation sessions until now. The soldiers would overpower me by harassing me and putting me into solitary isolation for no reason. The investigators would also put psychological pressure on me.

Perhaps I will mention some of the things that happened to me in the investigation rooms when I was in Camp Delta. I will not mention a lot of the incidents that happened to me because I do not want everything that happened to be published.

Some of the things that happened to me during investigations are: I was threatened with being murdered, tortured and having to spend the rest of my life in jail in Cuba, my daughter Nura would be kidnapped, they would make trouble for my family in Saudi Arabia and they threatened to assassinate me after I am released. They put very strong detergent in the investigation room and poured it all around me until I almost suffocated.

They put a music stereo record on very, very loudly, they put very bright torches to my face, they put me in a very, very cold room and reduced the temperature to the lowest temperature for many long hours and did not allow me to have food or drink, go to the toilet or perform my ablutions to pray. There were many other things such as they tied my hands to my feet in the ring on the floor of the room. All the investigation rooms have a metal ring fixed in the floor to tie the detainees’ feet to it. As for sexual assaults, many things happened to me and I will mention some of them here.

The worst situation, or attack, happened to me in September or afterwards, I do not remember the date exactly, in 2002, the first September after 9/11. The FBI took me for lots of investigation. One day, on a Saturday – I will tell you the reason for why I remember this date later – the soldiers took me at night for investigation. In the investigation room, they tied my feet to that steel ring and then they left me and went away. I sat alone for a long time. Then the door was opened forcefully and four soldiers wearing black masks and a female investigator came in. The soldiers started terrorising me by raising their voices and one of them had a video camera in his hand that he was taping this with.

Then this investigator said to me, "now we want you to confess that you are with Al Qaeda or that you have some connection to the attacks in America, otherwise tonight we will show you something that you will never ever forget for the rest of your life", and of course, I will never forget what happened for as long as I live. I told her that I had no connection to what she was talking about. They also had extra shackles with them that the soldiers moved in their hands to terrorise and frighten me. They started threatening me and when I realised that something serious was going to happen to me, I started screaming and shouting so that perhaps one of the brothers would hear my screams.

However, that was out of the question as all the investigation rooms were soundproof. She said to me, laughing, "it’s Saturday, it’s the weekend, it’s late at night and there are no officials around". After one final attempt to threaten me, she ordered the soldiers to start – what they had previously been ordered to do; the soldiers came and took me off the chair. My feet were tied to that ring as I mentioned before. They then laid me out on my back and put the extra shackles on top of my hand shackles and pulled me by them forcefully and brutally in the opposite direction, towards my feet, while I was lying on my back.

Then the investigator signalled to a soldier who a pair of scissors in his hand to cut off all my clothes. The soldiers cut off all my clothes, removed them and threw them in a corner of the room. The investigator then started taking off her clothes – the soldier with the camera was filming everything. When she was in her underwear, she stood on top of me. She took off her underpants, she was wearing a sanitary towel, and drops of her menstrual blood fell on me and then she assaulted me. I tried to fight her off but the soldiers held me down with the chains forcefully and ruthlessly so that they almost cut my hands. I spat at her on her face; she put her hand on her dirty menstrual blood that had fallen on my body and wiped it on my chest.

This shameless woman was wearing a cross on a chain. The cross had a figure of a crucified man on it. She raised the cross and kissed it, and then she looked at me and said that this cross was a present for you Muslims. She stained her hands with her menstrual blood and wiped my face and beard with it. Then she got up, cleaned herself, put her clothes back on and left the room…then the soldiers took my hands and tied them to my feet on the ground. All the soldiers left once they had taken my clothes from the corner of the room and left me in this state – tied up, naked and smeared with [] menstrual blood... After a few hours, some soldiers came; I do not know for certain if they were the same soldiers and that they had taken off their masks or if they were other soldiers.

They took me naked to the bathroom where I washed myself and they brought other clothes, as if they did not know about the severe violations I had suffered, as if nothing had happened. They took me back to the camp just before dawn. I was in a hysterical state, I was in a really bad state; I almost went mad because of what had happened, how it had happened and why it had happened. How it pains me to remember and write about these humiliating episodes. If these facts did not need to be documented for the whole world to know what happens in American detention camps, then I would not write this. They are real tragedies and they fill my heart with sadness and it almost breaks my heart to remember them. I was shaken to the core; my body and my mind were shaken.

I later learned that I was not alone in suffering this humiliation; many of the detainees had been assaulted in a similar way or even worse, as happened to one detainee from Saudi Arabia, from Makkah Al-Mukaramah, called Fahd Omar Abdul Majid Al-Sharif. When they found out that his family were descendants of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), he was assaulted by a female investigator in the same way that I was, except that the investigator that attacked him was not menstruating. The same scene was repeated with several detainees as well as some of the detainees being assaulted sexually by soldiers and investigators in the investigation rooms. If they found out that the detainee they were investigating was an imam of a mosque or a preacher, as was my case, they would insult them more.

These kinds of investigators, both male and female, and soldiers who sexually assaulted detainees were often not seen again after these evil attacks. Instead new people were brought to the detainee and they would do the same things to him that had been done to the previous detainee; it was almost as if they were specialists in these types of crimes and assaults.

"I am shaking and I feel pain as I write these painful memories that happened to us and to me personally. They have violated us deep in our hearts, our dignity and our humanity; all of this to prove the depravity of their agents and the immensity of their crimes against humanity. This is what those who brag about civilisation, peace and the law do, in whose name they have committed all of these severe human rights violations. I know for certain from twenty other brothers detained here who are of different nationalities that they faced these same evil crimes and even worse but they have prevented me from mentioning their names here.

However, I was given permission by Fahd Omar Al-Sharif to mention his name and what happened to him. He allowed me to mention his story but I will not linger on the disgusting assaults that they suffered. I used to be exactly like them before; I completely refused to have my name published alongside the painful details of what had happened to me.

However, I received a letter from my lawyer explaining to me that it was necessary that I disclose my name to the media and also that I convince some of the brothers detained with me of the necessity of disclosing their names to the media, so that the world can know what has happened and is happening in Cuba. I heard that some American officials deny that human rights violations are occurring in Cuba and deny that there are sexual assaults on detainees and that some journalists are also skewing the facts.

For example, as concerns the story about the detainee whom a female investigator smeared his face with menstrual blood, when this story broke out, the interpreter who calls himself Sam, who is a liar and slanderer, said, "she put her hand in red ink and then put it on the face of the detainee". He knows full well that we all saw our brother when he was brought back from investigation and we saw the menstrual blood on his face as they had brought him back directly from the investigation room to the camp without washing the blood off his face and everyone saw it. So what happened to us was also red ink? That is why I have decided to publish these incidents and I have not mentioned others as they were too savage. It is also to give credibility to what has happened. I am an eye witness to what has taken place here and I am prepared to present my testimony anywhere.

"This is not the whole story. There are many other stories; for example, one day the investigator took me to the investigation room. All the investigation rooms in Cuba lead to the next room through a door. When the soldiers took me into the room, the door between the two rooms was open and a male and a female investigator were naked and were having sex. The soldiers who brought me there were under orders not to look away.

When they took me to the room, they shackled my feet to the ring on the ground and then they went away as if they had not seen anything or heard anything. When the investigators had finished what they were doing, the male investigator came before me and removed his condom and threw it in the bin in the room. Then he told me," if you want to go with that investigator and have sex with her, cooperate with me and I will give you an hour with her and I’ll ask the soldiers to remove all your shackles". I did not speak to him, then after nearly half an hour, they left the room and soldiers took me back to the camp.

This is in addition to the pornographic films they put in the investigation rooms and the pornographic magazines and pictures they put in front of me in the investigation rooms. Some of the detainees were raped either in Afghanistan or in Cuba by investigators and soldiers. These brothers refuse to have these incidents published with their names next to them. To give an example and without mentioning the name of the person this happened to, because he told me that he does not want his name published, a Saudi Arabian brother in prison in Mazar-E-Sharif was raped by twenty soldiers at one time, both Americans and General Dostum’s soldiers. There are many other stories about such incidents in Bagram, Kandahar and Cuba. There are also lots of non-sexual assaults that happened.

"At the end of 2003, a major incident happened to me in the investigation room. The soldiers took me to the investigation room and the investigator – who I only ever saw on this one occasion – had a Koran in his hand when he entered the room. He put it on the table and started talking and raving. Then he asked some soldiers to come in so some soldiers came. This investigator had brought the American and Israeli flags in with him. He then ordered the soldiers to wrap the flags around me tightly and then he took the Koran, threw it on the floor and damaged it with his shoe. Then he exposed his penis and urinated on it. He said a lot of things to me, such as, "this is a holy war between the star of David and the cross against the crescent" and "the whole world will submit to us and if any one doesn’t submit to us…" [page missing]

"…Many incidents took place in Camp Delta; to give an example, some detainees were beaten and had their heads put down the toilet. This happened to me personally and to a brother from Yemen called Abdul Muhsin Al-Yafei as well as another Yemeni brother called Omar Al-Ramah. He had been on hunger strike for two weeks because of the abuse he was subject during investigations; his investigator, called Jacob who said that he was Jewish and that his son was called Benjamin, asked for Omar Al-Ramah to be put in this camp. He was very tired because of his hunger strike and this investigator would have him taken for investigation every day for more than twelve hours. Then the investigator himself came and I saw myself talking to the camp administration in the doctors and nurses’ room; Guantбnamo has its own rules but Camp Delta is not subject to these rules, it has an independent administration. He ordered them to keep him awake for the twelve hours that he was in investigation and on the second day, they took him to the solitary isolation cells in Camp Delta. You have no idea of what the solitary isolation cells in Camp Delta are like; they cause psychological illnesses. They beat him in solitary and I heard his screams when they were beating him. A lot of things happened to me in Camp Delta; I was severely psychologically abused, beaten, I bled and I was also stripped of my clothes and left naked on cold days. They put me in a cage, a cell that had nothing in it, no pillow, no mattress, only the cold metal of the cage; I was left there for many days. They would send soldiers and nurses to harm me. They took away all my things for many long months; I had nothing in the cold metal cage except for a plastic mat. Sometimes they gave me something like a cloth to wrap myself up in and [then] they would take it away. I was in this situation for more than five months. The soldiers played with our food and they tried very hard to cause us any kind of psychological stress. They would prevent me from having the food I could eat to put pressure on me. I refused to take any medication; at first they tried to, so I took it from them and threw it down the toilet and fooled them into thinking that I had taken them. Then I later told them the truth, that I was not taking any medication and that I was throwing it into the toilet, so they stopped giving me these poisons. The investigators would say to me, "cooperate with us and we’ll get you out of Camp Delta and we’ll stop your psychological stress"; I did not speak to them during investigations because of the crimes they perpetrated against me.

"They then used a new style of torture which was much worse than before; at the end of December 2003, they took me to the detainees’ hospital where a new tragedy began. They varied the psychological torture they subjected me too; in the hospital, they put pressure on me by preventing me from speaking to any of the other detainees, or even the soldiers and nurses or anyone else at all. I was only allowed to talk to three people who were in charge of torturing me, a doctor, who was a virulent racist, called P and two nurses who were just like him; in fact, he chose them himself. The first called herself "Irish" and the other one called herself "Swedish". They put me in a solitary cell and took all my clothes except for my shorts and my shirt. They took the blanket and reduced the air conditioning to as low as it could go.

I almost died because it was so cold; the hospital building was made of metal and it was extremely cold. They did not allow me to have a copy of the Koran for several weeks and they did not allow me to bath or perform the obligatory ghusl (full ablution). They brought a lot of shackles and when I wanted to go to the toilet, they made me walk bare foot on the cold hospital floor and enter the toilet without shoes. They would come in with me and stand in front of me while I relieved myself and did not allow me to use toilet tissue. The shackles were kept on when I went to the toilet and while I was inside so it was incredibly hard for me to relieve myself or perform my ablutions.

They ordered the nurses in the hospital to abuse me. I would be given food that [was] not suitable for my stomach, which has become much worse during my imprisonment. They prevented me from having the food that I needed and brought me hard food that I could not eat and I always ended up vomiting it up. As concerns this situation, the soldiers who were guarding me came from Camp Delta and no one apart from them was allowed to guard me. They would not let me know what the time was and the whole time I was shackled to the bed, which was really a hospital trolley, and I could not move. I have a lot of pain in my body and I have rheumatism because of the extreme cold and walking bare foot on the floor. I previously suffered from rheumatism in the camp because I was deprived of my clothes and slept in the cold metal cage. There were nurses who were responsible for me in the hospital who specialised in harming me.

Once, after I was allowed to have a copy of the Koran, one of them came and threw it on the floor. They tried to give me drugs. These drugs made many of the detainees ill and gave them really huge psychological problems. I refused to take any of these kinds of drugs, even the general medications could not be trusted. I was in this state for three weeks; they were the worst days of my detention, they were full of deprivation, humiliation, oppression and psychological stress. On most of these dark nights, I almost suffocated from the severity of the oppression. Only Allah, the Exalted, knows what state I was in.

Oh, those days and those nights, how I lived through them, but Allah was with me and were it not for the mercy of Allah, I would have killed myself a long time ago, but Allah’s mercy is greater than anything else so I kept myself busy by memorising the Koran. Allah’s mercy was showered on me even if the investigators, the doctors, the nurses, the soldiers and the oppressors hated it. The psychological torture was a greater tribulation than the physical torture I faced; physical torture brings you closer to Allah and increases one’s faith, whereas psychological torture breaks a person from deep within. I have lived through black nights that never seemed to end. I swear that I could not stand because of the severity of my suffering and stress, or even cry which would have made it easier for me. I could not. There was no one to answer me in the complete solitary isolation, there was no one to talk to, to make things that happened to me even slightly more bearable and there was no one for me to complain to about what I felt and was experiencing except for Allah, the Exalted, and He blessed me. My close friend during banishment and loneliness was the Book of Allah and I complained to Him about the ordeal I was suffering and what these oppressors were doing to me. His mercy and glory encompass everything and after three weeks, they moved me to isolation Camp I India.

While I was in hospital, they were thinking about and planning their next move. The devil showed them a new ruse; they picked out a special cell for me in the isolation camp. In the cell, they put metal above the washstand and soldered it so that there was no washbasin in the room and there was no water except for the water from the flush in the toilet whose tank was outside the cell. When I was taken from the hospital to the isolation camp –they were all in the hospital and the camp in Camp Delta – the soldiers took me barefoot and I was only wearing my shorts and shirt. While I was walking on the pebbles, some of the soldiers stopped at a gate and one of them said, "how did this detainee get into this state?" one of the soldiers who was holding me told him, "he has had harsh punishment".

Then they took me into the cell. Nurse "Irish" and some people and soldiers from the psychiatric clinic were waiting for me at the camp so that they could keep me under special guard. After that and before they removed my shackles, a soldier with scissors came forward and cut off my shirt and left me naked in the metal cell under the cold air conditioner without clothes, a pillow, a blanket, shorts, a small plastic mat [or] even plastic bathroom slippers. The doctor issued an order to prevent me having these things. This happened in mid January 2004. The metallic cell was very cold as I have already mentioned and the air conditioner was on directly above the metal bed. The light in the cell was very poor. The cell was very small: if I got off the metal bed, the toilet was just underneath me so I slept next to the toilet to avoid the chill from the air conditioning. However, I was happy when I found that there were some other detainees in the camp. They welcomed me dearly and they helped me. Were it not for Allah, the Exalted, and them, I would have killed myself in that situation. The doctor did not allow me to have any toilet tissue or water (as they had blocked the washbasin), except for a glass of drinking water if I asked for it.

For more than two weeks, I used the toilet without toilet tissue or water. I would clean myself with water from the flush. After that, they allowed me to have very little toilet tissue, which was not enough at all. The soldiers from Camp Delta who came especially for me harmed me a lot and followed a set programme of harming me. They would harass me and they would harm my food: they would put the plate of food besides their shoes and sometimes I had to take pieces of rubbish out of the food. I later found out that they spat in the water they gave me in the cup so I started to drink and make my ablutions from the flush water. As I mentioned before, the toilets in Camp Delta were metallic Turkish toilets, so I would pull the chain and put my hands next to the toilet and cup the water in my hands and drink from it and perform my ablutions. I had no other choice. I did this for more than three months and when I told the doctor that a solider had spat in my water and that a number of soldiers had seen this and he had done this in front of the psychiatric nurse, he said, "what do you want me to do about it?" He knew about everything that had happened and these orders came from him, as I was later told by a soldier (who felt sorry for me).

This doctor who had violated my rights was responsible for the washbasin being welded shut because when I was in the hospital, I had asked to take a bath. He even prevented me from performing the compulsory ghusl (full ablutions). I told him, "when I was in the camps, I used to bath everyday". That was why he ordered the washbasin in my cell to be turned off. I told him, "we’re Muslims. If a man has a wet dream, he has to bath". This was one of the main reasons. When the Bahraini delegation came, I complained to them about what was happening to me, I explained my situation to them and told them that I was drinking water from the toilet flush. But they took no action. The soldiers wiped their shoes on my clothes that were outside the cell and that I had to wear when they took me for investigation. They also took letters from my family and threw them in the bin. Due to the severity of what was happening to me at that time, I became like a house of cards that always falls down; whatever side you try to build it from, it will still fall down.

I almost collapsed completely. I was saved by the mercy of Allah. I really cannot describe my situation and the evil that befell me. I was in another world, not this world. Allah is enough for us and the most excellent of protectors. They forced me to go out for a bath outside the room in the bathing area early in the morning in the biting cold of January. I was only wearing my shorts; they made me bath in cold water and did not let me change my shorts after I had bathed. They made me go back wet to the metal cell which was freezing cold under the air conditioner. The cell was dirty as there was no water for me to clean it and they did not give me a clean blanket… It was in itself enough to make you depressed or sad. Once, I heard one of the soldiers talking to another and telling him, "I would never let my dog in America live in a place like this!! My dog in America lives in a place hundreds of times better than this". Oh, those days and nights. I felt that time had ended at that time and did not want to move forward. I felt that the whole world with its mountains and all its gravity was bearing down on my chest.

[Monkeybone]

so making them uncomfortable is torture? should we have put them in a hotel? maybe cut off a head or two and show that..oh wiat...

i can believe the first part. but as for the second part and parts of it...like it said..it is the story of someone that was there who doesn't like America in the first place so we should take is as fact? and so where is this Jumah al-Dossari? why hasn't he been more vocal than just this story?

have there been anymore images of those ones in Badgad? which those ppl have already been punished for?

[theHawk]

You apparently believe in "guilty until proven innocent" ...

Thats because we are at war. And war is the presumption of guilt. YOU may not be at war with Jihadists, the rest of us are.

[theHawk]

They are not being treated like prisoners of war and are not afforded the same rights. There is also plenty of abuse going on.



One has to wonder what moral ground the US has here. They accuse Saddam of committing atrocities, yet are committing them in their own prisons.


They are not being treated like POWs because they are not POWs. They don't belong to an army and they fall under "unlawful combatants".

Do you have any proof of "atrocities" being commited in our own prisons? What happened to presumed innocent until proven guilty? Or could it be that you are quick to presume the guild of our military, while giving jihadists the benefit of the doubt? Shows where your loyalties are.

[Doniston]

Oh so someone just imagined an grenade killing an imaginary army medic. Keep in mind they threw out the cases due to jurisdiction, not because there wasn't enough evidence to support the charges.

:pee: if they had the evidence. you would think that they could have found a way to prosecute they after so long. Right??? It is a common ploy to delay a case where there is no conclusive eveidence.

[theHawk]

if they had the evidence. you would think that they could have found a way to prosecute they after so long. Right??? It is a common ploy to delay a case where there is no conclusive eveidence.

They do not have due process rights, they are not American citizens. We have the right to hold them indefinately (at least until the war is over) then charge them at our leizure. Not to mention, obviously they were trying to try him on those charges, but they cannot proceed because of the jurisdiction- so obviously they do have the evidence against him. Yahoos like you though don't ever stop to think of things like that. You prefer to think the worst of our military instead.

[Rahul]

They do not have due process rights, they are not American citizens.

So, in your book, only US citizens are entitled to due process? :lame2:



We have the right to hold them indefinately (at least until the war is over) then charge them at our leizure.

It's leisure. Further, I strongly disagree with your statement. The detainees ALL deserve a fair trial.



Not to mention, obviously they were trying to try him on those charges, but they cannot proceed because of the jurisdiction- so obviously they do have the evidence against him.

Produce the evidence.



Yahoos like you though don't ever stop to think of things like that. You prefer to think the worst of our military instead.

Name calling isn't required. Do you always prefer to resort to calling others names when debating?


They are not being treated like POWs because they are not POWs.

Of course they are.



They don't belong to an army and they fall under "unlawful combatants".


What Bush wants them to fall under is irrelevant. They do belong to an army, obviously.



Do you have any proof of "atrocities" being commited in our own prisons?

Wow! Did you even, like, READ the sources I provided??



What happened to presumed innocent until proven guilty?

You should ask that same question of yourself.



Or could it be that you are quick to presume the guild of our military, while giving jihadists the benefit of the doubt? Shows where your loyalties are.

Not just jihadists - I believe everyone is entitled to a fair trial.


Thats because we are at war. And war is the presumption of guilt. YOU may not be at war with Jihadists, the rest of us are.

Even POW's are entitled to a fair trial which these folks aren't getting. You can call them what you like, but that doesn't change the facts.


so making them uncomfortable is torture?

Again, WOW! Did you even try and read what I quoted? I'd hardly call it "making them uncomfortable" - it goes far beyond that.


should we have put them in a hotel? maybe cut off a head or two and show that..oh wiat...

Those are silly remarks.



i can believe the first part. but as for the second part and parts of it...

In other words, you just believe what you want to, and not what is true.



like it said..it is the story of someone that was there who doesn't like America in the first place so we should take is as fact? and so where is this Jumah al-Dossari? why hasn't he been more vocal than just this story?

Huh? HOw the hell can he be more vocal than telling a long story?

Do you support innocent until proven guilty? Or guilty until proven innnocent?

[Gaffer]

So, in your book, only US citizens are entitled to due process? :lame2:

YES. I believe they ought to be treated the way they treat our soldiers.


It's leisure. Further, I strongly disagree with your statement. The detainees ALL deserve a fair trial.

They deserve to be tried by a military board and then executed.

Produce the evidence.

Prove they don't have any.

Name calling isn't required. Do you always prefer to resort to calling others names when debating?

I'll let him respond to that, but I agree with him.

Of course they are.

They are being treated like POW's which is more than they deserve.

What Bush wants them to fall under is irrelevant. They do belong to an army, obviously.


What army do they belong too?

Wow! Did you even, like, READ the sources I provided??

Must have missed those sources, they prove atrocities are being done? Like what?


You should ask that same question of yourself.



Not just jihadists - I believe everyone is entitled to a fair trial.

They will get a fair trial. It's way more than they deserve.

Even POW's are entitled to a fair trial which these folks aren't getting. You can call them what you like, but that doesn't change the facts.

A true POW does not need a fair trial. he just needs to wait till the war is over. Since this is a war with islam that could go on for another 50 years they have a long wait.

Again, WOW! Did you even try and read what I quoted? I'd hardly call it "making them uncomfortable" - it goes far beyond that.

There is NO torture at gitmo. They are just held and questioned. Sleep deprivation and loud music are not torture. neither are truth drugs. Your friends there are not suffering.

Those are silly remarks.



In other words, you just believe what you want to, and not what is true.

No YOU believe what YOU want too and not what is true.

Huh? HOw the hell can he be more vocal than telling a long story?

Is he related to jamal hessain of the iraqi police who was ap's favorite source of news stories in iraq until it was pointed out that he didn't exist? I'm suppose to take the word of a terrorist who hates America? Whose purpose is to spread propaganda through people like you.

Do you support innocent until proven guilty? Or guilty until proven innnocent?

Seems you have declared the US personnel at Gitmo guilty based on one terrorists statement.

[Doniston]

They do not have due process rights, they are not American citizens. We have the right to hold them indefinately (at least until the war is over) then charge them at our leizure. Not to mention, obviously they were trying to try him on those charges, but they cannot proceed because of the jurisdiction- so obviously they do have the evidence against him. Yahoos like you though don't ever stop to think of things like that. You prefer to think the worst of our military instead.

1. this has nothing to do with our military. -----so you are wrong there.
2. I don't think we have the right to hold them indefinitely ---we disagree.
3. Having the evidenced is not at all obvious, they may have had allegations, but I doubt there was sufficient evidence, or they would have found a way.--- so I think you are mistaken
4. I question Which of us is the "YAHOO"

[Doniston]

Seems you have declared the US personnel at Gitmo guilty based on one terrorists statement. Since this post is so mangled, I must assume the following is your statement, if not, I appologize, however if it is yours, you should be ashamed, and it tells where your head is.

(quote) They deserve to be tried by a military board and then executed.(unquote)

In short, without trial,you have already decided they are guilty

[Rahul]

Seems you have declared the US personnel at Gitmo guilty based on one terrorists statement.

No. Untrue. Before proceeding, I'd like to request something of which I have requested twice already, but it doesnt seem to be having any effect; hence, here it is in BOLD again: Please use the quote feature instead of responding within the post!! It makes it a HELL of a lot easier to respond.


YES. I believe they ought to be treated the way they treat our soldiers.

What about the way the US soldiers treat them (read article I provided)? Should that be excused?



They deserve to be tried by a military board and then executed.

Provided there is evidence, they should be punished but there is none as yet. And if there isn't evidence, they should be set free.



Prove they don't have any.

I don't need to. Innocent until proven guilty is proof enough. Or do you not support this?


They are being treated like POW's which is more than they deserve.

I provided links showing they are not.




What army do they belong too?

The Taliban's army, perhaps? Duh.




. Since this is a war with islam that could go on for another 50 years they have a long wait.

So now it's a war against Islam, huh? :rolleyes:



There is NO torture at gitmo. They are just held and questioned. Sleep deprivation and loud music are not torture. neither are truth drugs. Your friends there are not suffering.

I've provided you with links showing the opposite. It must be sad for you not to be able to understand.

Anyway, you did not answer the question.


Do you support innocent until proven guilty, or guilty until proven innocent?

[Gunny]

The latest Gitmo rulings are a welcome :fu:to the current administration. :)



There is still a long way to go, though. The men still won't be released, and they are just two of the many detainees ...





Hopefully Jennifer is right.

This is trying to make a whole lot out of NOTHING. The military ruled these guys don't fall under the classification "unlawful military combatant; therefore, IN ACCORDANCE WITH LAW, they threw out the cases. Big whoop.

[Monkeybone]

i did read and all i am asking for is proof. is that so bad? are there pictures of him? cause with that kinda treatment there would be lasting marks if not scars.

[theHawk]

So, in your book, only US citizens are entitled to due process? :lame2:
Yes.



Produce the evidence.

How can I produce evidence to a pending case in the military? Just because they haven't publically released everything means there is no evidence? :lame2:



Of course they are.

No, they are not, according the Geneva Convention. I'm guessing you haven't served one day in a military. Otherwise you would have been educated in this subject.



What Bush wants them to fall under is irrelevant. They do belong to an army, obviously.

What army did the Canadian belong to? Or any of them for that matter? Who is there commanding officer? What rank did they hold?




Wow! Did you even, like, READ the sources I provided??

Chaining someone to a chair and shinning a light on them is NOT torture. We aren't the ones burning people and dragging their corpses through the streets. You libs all want to scream about Abu Ghraib, but the fact of the matter is all of that took place over a few days, all purpotrated by a few individuals, illeagally, and were busted by the ARMY (not the media). And the worst they did was humiliate them. Nothing they did was torture. So to accuse the US military of systematic torture is flat out wrong. If any of you yahoos served a day in the US military, you'd know that we are all taught the rules and we are not allowed to torture.




You should ask that same question of yourself.

I already answered it. Whats the matter? Afraid to admit that you DO indeed presume our military guilty of these baseless accusations?




Even POW's are entitled to a fair trial which these folks aren't getting. You can call them what you like, but that doesn't change the facts.

Correct, it doesn't change the facts. They are not POWs. The Geneva Conventions do not apply.




Do you support innocent until proven guilty? Or guilty until proven innnocent?

For our own U.S. citizens innocent until proven guilty.

For those that we are at war with, guilty.

[Gunny]

Yes.


How can I produce evidence to a pending case in the military? Just because they haven't publically released everything means there is no evidence? :lame2:


No, they are not, according the Geneva Convention. I'm guessing you haven't served one day in a military. Otherwise you would have been educated in this subject.


What army did the Canadian belong to? Or any of them for that matter? Who is there commanding officer? What rank did they hold?



Chaining someone to a chair and shinning a light on them is NOT torture. We aren't the ones burning people and dragging their corpses through the streets. You libs all want to scream about Abu Ghraib, but the fact of the matter is all of that took place over a few days, all purpotrated by a few individuals, illeagally, and were busted by the ARMY (not the media). And the worst they did was humiliate them. Nothing they did was torture. So to accuse the US military of systematic torture is flat out wrong. If any of you yahoos served a day in the US military, you'd know that we are all taught the rules and we are not allowed to torture.



I already answered it. Whats the matter? Afraid to admit that you DO indeed presume our military guilty of these baseless accusations?



Correct, it doesn't change the facts. They are not POWs. The Geneva Conventions do not apply.




For our own U.S. citizens innocent until proven guilty.

For those that we are at war with, guilty.

This guy's not a US citizen, and all his arguments are anti-US, and devoid of any real substance. He fancies himself some kind of intellectual and he isn't even close.

But whatever you do, don't insult the girly-man or he'll report your posts.

[theHawk]

I'm quaking in my boots.

lol

[Rahul]

This is trying to make a whole lot out of NOTHING. The military ruled these guys don't fall under the classification "unlawful military combatant; therefore, IN ACCORDANCE WITH LAW, they threw out the cases.

The military ruled wrong. I have not yet seen any justification for calling them "unlawful" military combatants.

Or does the US get to decide whats lawful and what isn't?


i did read and all i am asking for is proof. is that so bad? are there pictures of him? cause with that kinda treatment there would be lasting marks if not scars.

I am not sure he wants to put his pictures out on the Internet for all to see.


This guy's not a US citizen,

Maybe you could substantiate this.



and all his arguments are anti-US,

They are anti-US policy/administration, not anti-US.



and devoid of any real substance.

I have provided plenty of proof for what I say. It must be sad for you not to be able to understand.



He fancies himself some kind of intellectual and he isn't even close.

Perhaps you could stop with the personal observations and concentrate on the topic at hand.



But whatever you do, don't insult the girly-man or he'll report your posts.

That's another insult already. How many times have you insulted me already? Insults are a very common debating tactic for those who wish to derail the discussion into flame wars, BTW.

So, do you support guilty until proven innocent? Why, or why not?

[Rahul]

Yes.

That's a lame double standard, right there.



How can I produce evidence to a pending case in the military? Just because they haven't publically released everything means there is no evidence? :lame2:

So you blindly believe what people say without evidence? How enlightening that must be.


Chaining someone to a chair and shinning a light on them is NOT torture.

I did not say it was. There was far worse done to the guy. You obviously chose not to read the article.



We aren't the ones burning people and dragging their corpses through the streets.

And, your point is?



You libs all want to scream about Abu Ghraib, but the fact of the matter is all of that took place over a few days, all purpotrated by a few individuals, illeagally, and were busted by the ARMY (not the media).

And the same type of thing is going on at Guantanemo.



And the worst they did was humiliate them. Nothing they did was torture. So to accuse the US military of systematic torture is flat out wrong.


There is proof the detainees are being tortured at Gitmo and had been tortured in Abu Ghraib. You have it backwards and 180 degrees reversed.


If any of you yahoos served a day in the US military, you'd know that we are all taught the rules and we are not allowed to torture.


Name calling is a tactic employed by those who do not have an actual argument to make.




I already answered it. Whats the matter? Afraid to admit that you DO indeed presume our military guilty of these baseless accusations?


You did not even ask the question of yourself.



Correct, it doesn't change the facts. They are not POWs. The Geneva Conventions do not apply.

They are POW's. You are wrong on this as well as a great many things.



For our own U.S. citizens innocent until proven guilty.

For those that we are at war with, guilty.

I don't agree with your double standards. It's great news that at least a few detainees are starting to get some form of a trial.

[Monkeybone]

So you blindly believe what people say without evidence? How enlightening that must be.

you are doing that with the torture, this guy says that it happened so it did?

i am not saying that everyone was treated like a best friend, and yes there probably is some mistreatment. but that is way out there, and if they are doing to everyone then why have we only heard from this guy?

[Rahul]

you are doing that with the torture, this guy says that it happened so it did?

I consider the source to be reliable which is why I posted it. And that is why I believe it happened.



i am not saying that everyone was treated like a best friend, and yes there probably is some mistreatment. but that is way out there, and if they are doing to everyone then why have we only heard from this guy?

There are others too - I just posted one person's experiences. I could google and find others too, IF you want to take a look. :)

[theHawk]

OK Rahul, get a pen and paper, you're about to get an education.

In the military we go by something called the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC), these are derived directly from the Geneva Conventions as well as other treaties.

It states clearly that only fighters captured that are "lawful combatants" may get POW status. It outlines the following criteria to meet those standards:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

Clearly, with those above standards, terrorists do not meet those standards. No matter how many times you say,"yes they do" over and over like a child. They do not wear rank, they are not commanded by anybody that is responisble for their actions, and they do not conduct war within the laws and customs of war.

Next time, do some research before you open your mouth on subjects you know nothing about. Then again, don't, and continue to portray yourself as an uninformed looney toon.

[Gunny]

Maybe you could substantiate this.

Sure. Either you're not an American or you're about as close to beign a traitor as I've ever seen.


They are anti-US policy/administration, not anti-US.

Duh. Anti-US policy is anti-US.

I have provided plenty of proof for what I say. It must be sad for you not to be able to understand.

You've provided nothing of substance in any thread you have tried to make an argument in. Opinions you try to pass off as fact, and or just plain old anti-US propaganda.


Perhaps you could stop with the personal observations and concentrate on the topic at hand.

I doubt it.

That's another insult already. How many times have you insulted me already? Insults are a very common debating tactic for those who wish to derail the discussion into flame wars, BTW.

So, do you support guilty until proven innocent? Why, or why not?

Blah, blah, blah. The fact is, you do nothing but whine as a means of deflection, and have nothing of substance to add to the topic being debated unless one wants to hear the latest anti-US propaganda.

[Rahul]

OK Rahul, get a pen and paper, you're about to get an education.

There isn't any evidence that you can provide me with any education.



In the military we go by something called the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC), these are derived directly from the Geneva Conventions as well as other treaties.It states clearly that only fighters captured that are "lawful combatants" may get POW status. It outlines the following criteria to meet those standards:

(a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) That of carrying arms openly;
(d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war."

a) Prove that the detainees weren't commanded by anyone.
b) Even more ludicrious - prove they did not have a "distinctive sign".
c) THE most ludicrious - They certainly carried arms openly.
d) Define the "laws and customs of war".


Clearly, with those above standards, terrorists do not meet those standards.

It hasn't been proven that the detainees are terrorists, and you haven't articulated how they do not meet the standards.



No matter how many times you say,"yes they do" over and over like a child.

Neither will denying the facts make them terrorists.



They do not wear rank, they are not commanded by anybody that is responisble for their actions, and they do not conduct war within the laws and customs of war.

Nonsense. There isn't any proof for any of this, and the laws/customs of war aren't defined by you and you alone.



Next time, do some research before you open your mouth on subjects you know nothing about.

It is you that has it upside down and backwards.



Then again, don't, and continue to portray yourself as an uninformed looney toon.

Your name calling is unappreciated. Do you always insult those who you engage in debate with?

[Rahul]

Sure. Either you're not an American or you're about as close to beign a traitor as I've ever seen.

Where is your proof?



Duh. Anti-US policy is anti-US.

I disagree.


You've provided nothing of substance in any thread you have tried to make an argument in. Opinions you try to pass off as fact, and or just plain old anti-US propaganda.

Your lack of understanding is neither my fault nor my concern.



I doubt it.

Perhaps you could make a graceful exit from the thread and allows others to debate it civily. Thanks for your co-operation, Gunny! :beer:

[Monkeybone]

a)it's not that they weren't commanded by someone, it is someone that is responsible for them, like our officers who direct the men.

b)have you ever seen one of them wear a unifrom? no, they dress like civlians. and i don't think that a turban counts as a clear distinction

c)and they do not carry arms openly. they hide them until they use them. and we can't shoot anyone that has arms displayed becasue each family is allowed one rifle per male of the fighting age to protect themselves.

d)and i don't know the customs or laws either, unless it is how we engage and everything and then no, i don't think that they are following them. they blow up 50 civlians to get 2 soldiers. we don't do that.

[Rahul]

a)it's not that they weren't commanded by someone, it is someone that is responsible for them, like our officers who direct the men.

I agree. This is one reason they should be classifed as POW's.


b)have you ever seen one of them wear a unifrom? no, they dress like civlians. and i don't think that a turban counts as a clear distinction

But, that may be their uniform. Further, they may have other clothing acting as identification which we don't know about.



c)and they do not carry arms openly. they hide them until they use them. and we can't shoot anyone that has arms displayed becasue each family is allowed one rifle per male of the fighting age to protect themselves.

I disagree. I have seen many pictures of the Taliban with guns plainly visible.



d)and i don't know the customs or laws either, unless it is how we engage and everything and then no, i don't think that they are following them. they blow up 50 civlians to get 2 soldiers. we don't do that.

The Hawk seems to think that laws are made by him, and he gets to dicate the customs, which isn't true. :)

[Monkeybone]

good responses on all, but like i said, we can't engage if they dispaly weapons like normal. they wait until we have our backs turned or they are in a crowd so we can't engage back. that is what i was saying

[Gunny]

Where is your proof?

Your every word is all the proof I need. Get it yet? YOU are the proof of what you are.


I disagree.

And you're wrong.


Your lack of understanding is neither my fault nor my concern.

Not even a good try. I understand just fine. If anyone has a comprehension problem, it would be someone that believes the pure bullshit you do.

Perhaps you could make a graceful exit from the thread and allows others to debate it civily. Thanks for your co-operation, Gunny! :beer:

Fuck you, scumbag. How about you leave this board and not try to infect it with your anti-US gibberish and lies?

[Rahul]

Fuck you, scumbag. How about you leave this board and not try to infect it with your anti-US gibberish and lies?

These are the sort of insults which get reported for sure. Perhaps you could cease with the insults and actually make an argument.

[Rahul]

good responses on all, but like i said, we can't engage if they dispaly weapons like normal. they wait until we have our backs turned or they are in a crowd so we can't engage back. that is what i was saying

Yes, but how do we define "normal"? That definition would vary from country to country, I would think ...and even if we do define "normal", how do we know they aren't "displaying weaposn normally"?

BTW, appreciate the points. :)

Rahul

[theHawk]

Nonsense. There isn't any proof for any of this, and the laws/customs of war aren't defined by you and you alone.



Pssst, its called the Geneva Conventions, and as I said before LOAC as well. I don't "make this stuff up." (A simple search will show you-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_armed_conflict ) This is what was in the treaties. These are how the laws define it. Go ahead and keep saying "prove it, prove it" over and over, its not going to change the law. You know damn well these terrorists are not apart of any formal army. Uniformed and wearing insignia means that the opposing army can distinguish them from the civilians, and you know damn well they intentionally try to blend in with civilians. Yes, they sometimes openly carry arms, but you fail to realize they have to meet all of the criteria in order to qualify as legal combatants that can be assigned POW status.

[Nukeman]

Pssst, its called the Geneva Conventions, and as I said before LOAC as well. I don't "make this stuff up." (A simple search will show you-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_armed_conflict ) This is what was in the treaties. These are how the laws define it. Go ahead and keep saying "prove it, prove it" over and over, its not going to change the law. You know damn well these terrorists are not apart of any formal army. Uniformed and wearing insignia means that the opposing army can distinguish them from the civilians, and you know damn well they intentionally try to blend in with civilians. Yes, they sometimes openly carry arms, but you fail to realize they have to meet all of the criteria in order to qualify as legal combatants that can be assigned POW status.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!:clap::clap:

you mst spread some reputation around before giving it to thehawk again..

[Rahul]

You know damn well these terrorists are not apart of any formal army.

I don't know that, and am loathe to believe that since they obviousy consider their unit to be an army. I don't even know that they are terrorists, for that matter, since I have only your word to go upon.



Uniformed and wearing insignia means that the opposing army can distinguish them from the civilians, and you know damn well they intentionally try to blend in with civilians.

Terrorists might, but we are not talking about terrorists.



Yes, they sometimes openly carry arms, but you fail to realize they have to meet all of the criteria in order to qualify as legal combatants that can be assigned POW status.

And you haven't proven they don't meet all the criteria.

[theHawk]

Look, you can believe whatever you want. Obviously reason and logic have nothing to do with your thought process. You have an agenda and are sticking to it.

[Rahul]

Look, you can believe whatever you want.

I don't believe your biased right wing sources.


Obviously reason and logic have nothing to do with your thought process. You have an agenda and are sticking to it.

What was illogical about what I said? What is my agenda? Maybe you could be less vague.

[Gunny]

These are the sort of insults which get reported for sure. Perhaps you could cease with the insults and actually make an argument.


How does "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK" work for you, whiner?

[Gunny]

Look, you can believe whatever you want. Obviously reason and logic have nothing to do with your thought process. You have an agenda and are sticking to it.

You nailed THAT one.

[Rahul]

How does "I DON'T GIVE A FUCK" work for you, whiner?

I am not a whiner and don't make vulgar remarks as you do.

What about the lawyer from the Navy though? What is your opinion on him?




http://jucee.org/China/2706-GOOD-NEWS-FOR-GITMO--NOTSO-FOR-DAVID-HICKS.-Body.html


GITMO WIN LIKELY COST NAVY LAWYER HIS CAREER

'Fearless' defense of detainee a stinging loss for Bush

seattlepi.nwsource.com

By PAUL SHUKOVSKY P-I REPORTER

Lt. Cmdr. Charles Swift -- the Navy lawyer who beat the president of the United States in a pivotal Supreme Court battle over trying alleged persons -- figures he'll probably have to find a new job.

Of course, it's always risky to compare your boss to King George III.

Swift made the analogy to the court, saying President Bush had overstepped his authority when he bypbutted Congress and set up illegal military tribunals to try Guantanamo detainees such as Swift's alleged al-Qaida client, Salim Ahmed Hamdan.

The justices agreed, ruling 5-3 Thursday in favor of dismantling the current tribunal system.

Despite his spectacular success, with the buttistance of attorneys from the Seattle firm Perkins Coie, Swift thinks his military career is coming to an end. The 44-year-old Judge Advocate General officer, who was recently named one of the 100 most influential lawyers in the country by The National Law Journal, was pbutted over for promotion last year as the high-profile case was making headlines around the world.

"I may be one of the most influential lawyers in America," the Seattle University Law School graduate said, "but I won't be in the military much longer. That irony did strike me."

Swift's future in the Navy now rests with another promotion board that is expected to render its decision in the next couple of weeks. Under the military's system, officers need to be promoted at regularly scheduled intervals or their service careers are essentially over.

"The way it works, the die was cast some months ago," he said. "The decision has been made. I don't know what it is yet." But he thinks his chances are slim.

Asked if he believes he was pbutted over for promotion last year for political reasons, Swift would not speculate.

"I don't know," he said. "I'm not going to worry about it. I didn't volunteer for this. I got nominated for it. When I got it, I just decided to do the best I could."

Swift has worked under two officers as a member of the small team of lawyers defending "enemy combatants" being held at Guantanamo Bay. Both of them spoke highly of Swift Friday and said they gave him very high ratings on his annual review, called a fitness report.

"He's doing a fantastic job," said Swift's current boss at the Office of Military Commissions (tribunals), Marine Col. Dwight Sullivan.

Sullivan spoke of the crucial importance of the case decided Thursday by the Supreme Court. "It's a fundamental consbreastutional question about the powers of the president," Sullivan said. Asked about Swift's aggressive legal challenge of the commander in chief, Sullivan saluted Swift's "moral courage."

"He has been absolutely fearless is pursuing his client's interests. And also he has exhibited an extraordinary level of legal skill. His legal strategy has been brilliant.

"We all take an oath to protect and defend the Consbreastution of the United States and he has certainly done that, literally."

Swift spoke Friday about his "immense pride" in the military justice system. "I don't feel that because you join the military you should lose rights. If there is anyone who deserves the protection of those rights, it's the people who are willing to lay down their lives for it."

So the question is will Swift lay down his career because of his vigorous defense of a Yemeni tribesman who was Osama bin Laden's driver in Afghanistan.

Swift's first supervisor at the Office of Commissions was Col. Will Gunn, who said Friday that he gave Swift two annual fitness reports and "I gave him very high ratings overall."

Asked whether he thought politics might have played a role in Swift being bypbutted for promotion, Gunn focused on Swift's atypical career as a military lawyer. "Charlie has spent a lot of time as a litigator, a trial advocate. That's really unusual in the JAG. You find that people in the more senior ranks have moved around and proved themselves in a variety of settings."

Most of Swift's career has been spent in the courtroom.

"While Charlie is a brilliant guy, a tenacious litigator, he does not have all the blocks checked like some other folks have," Gunn said. He called it a "breadth-of-experience" issue.

Swift clearly believes that his vigorous defense of Hamdan was, in a very real way, a vigorous defense of military justice and the Consbreastution.

"If they are calling the commissions (tribunals) military justice, it's got to live up to what military justice is. It means something. It's about the law, not what the leaders want. The greatest thing about the JAG Corps is ... I had the opportunity to work every day in a system I believe in."

Swift figures he'll hear around the second week of the month whether he's been pbutted over for promotion again. If so, he says, it will be time to dust off the resume.

He doesn't know what might be next, but when asked if he might move back to the Puget Sound area, he said: "I lived in Seattle for 6 1-2 years. I love Seattle."

He proceeded to reminisce fondly about sitting in the Kingdome's outfield bleachers watching the Mariners play. "And my wife is an airplane pilot. She could live anywhere."





Maybe not for David Hicks, though.



GOOD NEWS FOR GITMO, NOT SO FOR DAVID HICKS!!

AddedNote: The US Supreme Court had thrown out George Bush Jr. invention of "military tribunal" for detainees at the Guantanamo Bay Cuba. The court ruled this specific trial process as "illegal". The South Australian David Hicks has been one among those detained at the Gitmo. Those at Gitmo are detained for the purpose of "person scapegoats", not that Americans would have substantial evidence for laying proper charges. This much is clear to us, at least.

As a consequence of the court ruling, the political support for detaining these suspects at the Guantanamo Cuba will likely to collapse; and indeed the Gitmo prison may have to be closed.

It is more likely those detained will be repatriated to their own country because the US Administration would not like to have further embarrbuttments.

This will make little joy for David Hicks. Even if he is repatriated to Australia, the "Control Orders" provision is ready and waiting for him. Those in Australia would well remember a controversial "Anti-Terror" Laws were pbutted late last year. I wrote a piece then concerning David Hicks possible release and the implications of that Terror Law. Even if David came home, the pain would likely continue inflicting on him.

[theHawk]

I don't believe your biased right wing sources.

My "sources" are my own experience in the military and being taught to adhere to the LOAC.

[Rahul]

My "sources" are my own experience in the military .

Your "sources" are biased and faulty.

[Monkeybone]

so we should dismantal the LOAC since it is faulty? that owuld be nice, then nothing could really hold us back from doing what nwe need to and we won't have a need for POW camps

[Gaffer]

Your "sources" are biased and faulty.

So this is what baghdad bob is doing now days.

[Rahul]

So this is what baghdad bob is doing now days.

Your response is unclear. Who is Baghdad Bob, and what does he have to do with the OP?

[manu1959]

Your response is unclear. Who is Baghdad Bob, and what does he have to do with the OP?

you can't be this uninformed......you just can't

[Rahul]

you can't be this uninformed......you just can't

Educate me. I've googled it already, but am curious to see how you explain this one without resorting to ad hominems (you've already resorted to one).

[Gunny]

Your "sources" are biased and faulty.

and STILL beat YOUR lameass opinions all to hell.

[Gunny]

you can't be this uninformed......you just can't

:lol:

You obviously haven't been reading his "work." He's just about as uninformed as a crackhead.

[Gaffer]

Educate me. I've googled it already, but am curious to see how you explain this one without resorting to ad hominems (you've already resorted to one).

I guess you were busy hiding in a cave with bin laden during the invasion of iraq. you missed some great commentary from baghdad bob during those days.

[Rahul]

you missed some great commentary from baghdad bob during those days.

Perhaps you could educate us all on the commentary.

[Gaffer]

Perhaps you could educate us all on the commentary.

Not necessary, everyone else saw him and knows what I'm talking about. But you keep googling, I'm sure you can come up with some of his classic stuff. Welovebaghdadbob.something might help.

[Doniston]

Not necessary, everyone else saw him and knows what I'm talking about. But you keep googling, I'm sure you can come up with some of his classic stuff. Welovebaghdadbob.something might help. I also have no idea who you are talking about. There are lots of people who say lots of things, I know a Bagdad Bob from the Bagdad cafe in Newberry springs Ca. but I m sure he is not who you are talking about.

[Gaffer]

I also have no idea who you are talking about. There are lots of people who say lots of things, I know a Bagdad Bob from the Bagdad cafe in Newberry springs Ca. but I m sure he is not who you are talking about.

http://www.badjocks.com/baghdad_bob_quotes.htm

Maybe this will help.

A few quotes from BB

BAGHDAD BOB QUOTES

Are these the Americans? People remain silent and placate the Americans. By God, they only deserve scorn. We slaughtered them yesterday and we will continue to slaughter them.

As for the mercenaries who advanced to the perimeters of Saddam International Airport, I would like to remind you of something. I will mention something that will make the picture clear for you and help you to understand what took place at Saddam International Airport. Most of you probably saw the American movie "Wag the Dog". I hope you remember it. Some of their acts that took place at dawn yesterday and today are similar to what happened in "Wag the Dog". If we succeed in keeping them isolated on that island, and we are determined to do so, we might let them taste a second mini Dien Bien Phu tonight. The European journalists remember it well. Our estimates are that none of them will come out alive unless they surrender to us quickly. They are completely surrounded now.

Blair... is accusing us of executing British soldiers. We want to tell him that we have not executed anybody. They are either killed in battle, most of them get killed because they are cowards anyway, the rest they just get captured.

God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis.

God willing, I will provide you with more information. I swear by God, I swear by God, those who are staying in Washington and London have thrown these mercenaries in a crematorium.

I blame Al-Jazeera - they are marketing for the Americans!

I can assure you that those villains [American's and British] will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place.

I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly.

I told you yesterday that the shock has backfired on them. Indeed, they are shocked because of what they have seen. No one received them with roses. They were received with bombs, shoes and bullets. Now, the game has been exposed. Awe will backfire on them. This is the boa snake. We will extend it further and cut it in the appropriate way.

I would like to clarify a simple fact here: How can you lay siege to a whole country? Who is really under siege now? Baghdad cannot be besieged. Al-Nasiriyah cannot be besieged. Basra cannot be besieged.

Iraqi fighters in Umm Qasr are giving the hordes of American and Brtish mercenaries the taste of definite death. We have drawn them into a quagmire and they will never get out of it.

It has been rumored that we have fired scud missiles into Kuwait. I am here now to tell you, we do not have any scud missiles and I don't know why they were fired into Kuwait.

[Doniston]

http://www.badjocks.com/baghdad_bob_quotes.htm

Maybe this will help.

A few quotes from BB

BAGHDAD BOB QUOTES

Are these the Americans? People remain silent and placate the Americans. By God, they only deserve scorn. We slaughtered them yesterday and we will continue to slaughter them.

As for the mercenaries who advanced to the perimeters of Saddam International Airport, I would like to remind you of something. I will mention something that will make the picture clear for you and help you to understand what took place at Saddam International Airport. Most of you probably saw the American movie "Wag the Dog". I hope you remember it. Some of their acts that took place at dawn yesterday and today are similar to what happened in "Wag the Dog". If we succeed in keeping them isolated on that island, and we are determined to do so, we might let them taste a second mini Dien Bien Phu tonight. The European journalists remember it well. Our estimates are that none of them will come out alive unless they surrender to us quickly. They are completely surrounded now.

Blair... is accusing us of executing British soldiers. We want to tell him that we have not executed anybody. They are either killed in battle, most of them get killed because they are cowards anyway, the rest they just get captured.

God will roast their stomachs in hell at the hands of Iraqis.

God willing, I will provide you with more information. I swear by God, I swear by God, those who are staying in Washington and London have thrown these mercenaries in a crematorium.

I blame Al-Jazeera - they are marketing for the Americans!

I can assure you that those villains [American's and British] will recognize, will discover in appropriate time in the future how stupid they are and how they are pretending things which have never taken place.

I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying, that they have started to commit suicide under the walls of Baghdad. We will encourage them to commit more suicides quickly.

I told you yesterday that the shock has backfired on them. Indeed, they are shocked because of what they have seen. No one received them with roses. They were received with bombs, shoes and bullets. Now, the game has been exposed. Awe will backfire on them. This is the boa snake. We will extend it further and cut it in the appropriate way.

I would like to clarify a simple fact here: How can you lay siege to a whole country? Who is really under siege now? Baghdad cannot be besieged. Al-Nasiriyah cannot be besieged. Basra cannot be besieged.

Iraqi fighters in Umm Qasr are giving the hordes of American and Brtish mercenaries the taste of definite death. We have drawn them into a quagmire and they will never get out of it.

It has been rumored that we have fired scud missiles into Kuwait. I am here now to tell you, we do not have any scud missiles and I don't know why they were fired into Kuwait. OK, now I know who you were talking about. Thank YOU.

[Said1]

One one regular procedure was making uncooperative prisoners strip to their underwear, having them sit in a chair while shackled hand and foot to a bolt in the floor, and forcing them to endure strobe lights and loud rock and rap music played through two close loudspeakers, while the air-conditioning was turned up to maximum levels

Hmmm. With the exception of the shackle and partial nudity, I swear I've been to this bar. The trick is to keep dancing and drink lots of liquor. that's how you stay warm.

[Abbey Marie]

Hmmm. With the exception of the shackle and partial nudity, I swear I've been to this bar. The trick is to keep dancing and drink lots of liquor. that's how you stay warm.

:laugh2: Sounds like a typical trip to Hollisters.