Another Example of Liberals Never Being Happy Even When They Get What They Want

[red states rule]

So the Boy Scouts caved and wil admit gays. Not good enough for liberal bimbo Saly Quinn






The naked empress of The Washington Post’s “On Faith” page was at it again on Saturday, displaying for everyone that everything she writes is about the worship of secular liberalism and the protection of atheists, gay “pride” activists, and other God-haters who genuflect only to the ACLU.

Like many leftists, Sally Quinn (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/why-johnny-cant-scout-if-hes-gay-hes-out-at-18-but-if-hes-atheist-hes-out-immediately/2013/06/06/37465d0c-ceca-11e2-8f6b-67f40e176f03_story.html) can’t be happy that the gay lobby and corporate America have turned the formerly reverent Boy Scouts of America into everything “tolerant” and “welcoming” (unless you’re one of those Bible-thumpers). They aren’t all the way there yet. They’re still contemptible until they have gay scoutmasters and atheist scouts. Sure, “little Johnny” can be gay as a teen, but then what?

Overnight, Johnny will go from being a model Scout to a pariah. Or he will have to lie. He will have to live a lie. What should Johnny do?

Let’s make it more complicated. Little Johnny, when he was younger, recited the Boy Scout Oath. “On my honor,” he would say, three fingers raised, “I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.” (Clearly, morally straight is in the eye of the beholder.)

There it is -- the objection to someone putting a loaded phrase like "morally straight" in their oath. While she's at it, why doesn't Quinn object to "physically strong" as well, since that's insensitive to disabled children, and well, what if Johnny is a bit of a 98-pound weakling? It continued:

Now let’s say, around age 15, when he realized he was gay, Johnny started having doubts about God. He couldn’t understand how there could be a God who would allow so much suffering in the world. He also didn’t quite understand who or what God was. He tried to pray, but he felt that nobody was listening. He really wanted to believe in God, but it didn’t make sense to him. He learned the word atheist and began to realize that he might be one. He also learned that the Boy Scouts banned atheists. It was against the Scout Law (a Scout is reverent).

Johnny has a problem. If he says he is an atheist, he will have to quit and never be able to have anything to do with Scouting again. So, he pretends to believe in God. When he says the oath, he mumbles the part about duty to God and just says country. He lives a lie.

The good news is that after Johnny turns 18, he will be able to come out of the closet as a gay man and an atheist and finally live a life of truth. The bad news is that the Boy Scouts have turned Johnny into a liar, denied him his life ambition, kept him from fulfilling his potential, taught him that he is not a valued member of society and, worst of all, deprived the Boy Scouts of one of the best leaders the organization could have.

Talk about “honor.”

Notice how Quinn prizes “truth” and authenticity – when you’re a liberal. She obviously doesn’t believe there’s a single conservative or Christian in The Washington Post building who’s “living a lie” and suppressing their beliefs to keep employed. The same is going to start happening in the Boy Scouts – people who are “anti-gay” won’t be welcome because they’re not “welcoming.” The "intolerant" will not be tolerated.


Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-graham/2013/06/09/washpost-faith-editor-sally-quinn-still-hates-boy-scouts-until-theyre-we#ixzz2ViyZ04pu

[Noir]

Right so i 'get' (but don't accept as reasonable) the reasons behind the 'anti-gay' agenda for scouts. But theirs an anti-atheist component as well? How pathetic.

[red states rule]

Right so i 'get' (but don't accept as reasonable) the reasons behind the 'anti-gay' agenda for scouts. But theirs an anti-atheist component as well? How pathetic.

What is pathetic is hen liberals want to infest and infect eveyrthing they see with their liberalsim

and show zero tolerance to all other POV's

[Noir]

What is pathetic is hen liberals want to infest and infect eveyrthing they see with their liberalsim

and show zero tolerance to all other POV's

I believe the ironic quip is 'have no tolerance for intolerance.' There is absolutely no reason why an atheist should not be able to be a scout.

[Voted4Reagan]

I believe the ironic quip is 'have no tolerance for intolerance.' There is absolutely no reason why an atheist should not be able to be a scout.

The Boy Scouts Charter written over 100 years ago says why...


http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement/Appendix/CharterAndBylaws.aspx

Article IX. Policies and Definitions—From the Charter and Bylaws
Section 1. Declaration of Religious Principle, clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.” The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

If Atheists don't like it they are free to join another Group... The Boy Scouts and Religion are irrevocably intertwined.

they dont care what religion you are... They want you to have belief and conviction in God...

I helped a scout earn his Religious Medal in his faith...

Zoroastrian

If they dont like that it's a religious based organization... they can start their own NON-RELIGIOUS One.

[jimnyc]

Right so i 'get' (but don't accept as reasonable) the reasons behind the 'anti-gay' agenda for scouts. But theirs an anti-atheist component as well? How pathetic.

Why is it pathetic? Why can't they, as a private club, simply believe what they believe, and leave them alone as a club? If someone doesn't like what they do or what they stand for, then simply don't try to join with them or having anything to do with them.

It's like all the crap over Augusta National and the lack of women members. So what? Do we want to force EVERY private club in the world to accept every single person and change every single 'bylaw' to appease everyone in the world? It's only a matter of time before little johnny, who feels like he is a girl, demands to be a member of the girl scouts - and many will fight for HIS right, not hers as the media would write it.

[gabosaurus]

What is pathetic is hen liberals want to infest and infect eveyrthing they see with their liberalsim

and show zero tolerance to all other POV's

This is because conservatism is a serious disease that we are still seeking a cure for. We will be having a "Cure Conservatism" telethon soon. And we will be checking to see who watches and contributes.

[jimnyc]

This is because conservatism is a serious disease that we are still seeking a cure for. We will be having a "Cure Conservatism" telethon soon. And we will be checking to see who watches and contributes.

Please don't troll threads. Seriously, every now and again it can be funny, but your trolling of conservatives is getting a tad old. If we are all so diseased, and dumb as you often tell us, then you should have no problem remaining on topic and simply beating us with facts and intelligence.

[gabosaurus]

Please don't troll threads. Seriously, every now and again it can be funny, but your trolling of conservatives is getting a tad old. If we are all so diseased, and dumb as you often tell us, then you should have no problem remaining on topic and simply beating us with facts and intelligence.

The ORIGINAL POST is a troll!! Get your head on straight! :slap:

[Noir]

Why is it pathetic? Why can't they, as a private club, simply believe what they believe, and leave them alone as a club? If someone doesn't like what they do or what they stand for, then simply don't try to join with them or having anything to do with them.

It's like all the crap over Augusta National and the lack of women members. So what? Do we want to force EVERY private club in the world to accept every single person and change every single 'bylaw' to appease everyone in the world? It's only a matter of time before little johnny, who feels like he is a girl, demands to be a member of the girl scouts - and many will fight for HIS right, not hers as the media would write it.

Its pathetic because you will inevitably end up in the situation were someone who has been involved in the scouts for years loses faith. They then have to choose whether they want to tell the truth, and be forced out of the scouting community, or they have to lie. That'd be a pretty though break to force on a teenager IMO.

Although it seems from a scouting perspective, that they would rather you became a Muslim than an atheist. Because no atheist could be the 'best kind of citizen'

[Marcus Aurelius]

The Boy Scouts Charter written over 100 years ago says why...


http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement/Appendix/CharterAndBylaws.aspx

Article IX. Policies and Definitions—From the Charter and Bylaws
Section 1. Declaration of Religious Principle, clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.” The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

If Atheists don't like it they are free to join another Group... The Boy Scouts and Religion are irrevocably intertwined.

they dont care what religion you are... They want you to have belief and conviction in God...

I helped a scout earn his Religious Medal in his faith...

Zoroastrian



If they dont like that it's a religious based organization... they can start their own NON-RELIGIOUS One.

:clap::clap::clap:

[jimnyc]

Its pathetic because you will inevitably end up in the situation were someone who has been involved in the scouts for years loses faith. They then have to choose whether they want to tell the truth, and be forced out of the scouting community, or they have to lie. That'd be a pretty though break to force on a teenager IMO.

Simple, if you lose faith, and you are at odds with a CLUB - then just leave and do your own thing, or join one of the other tons of clubs that do similar things. This is what the Scouts stand for, why would anyone want to remain a member if you believe the opposite of what they stand for?

[jimnyc]

The Boy Scouts Charter written over 100 years ago says why...


http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/GuideToAdvancement/Appendix/CharterAndBylaws.aspx

Somehow I skipped over this post. But it goes back over 100 years? Wow, and suddenly they should be forced to somehow change? Sorry, they are a private club and should be able to stay with their bylaws. The people coming in should decide if they can abide or not - one doesn't come in and then expect bylaws to change for their liking.

[gabosaurus]

Simple, if you lose faith, and you are at odds with a CLUB - then just leave and do your own thing, or join one of the other tons of clubs that do similar things. This is what the Scouts stand for, why would anyone want to remain a member if you believe the opposite of what they stand for?

I am in agreement that the Boy Scouts are a private organization that has the right to set and enforce their own rules and standard. I am against those who use the Boy Scouts to push a conservative agenda.

[Noir]

Simple, if you lose faith, and you are at odds with a CLUB - then just leave and do your own thing, or join one of the other tons of clubs that do similar things. This is what the Scouts stand for, why would anyone want to remain a member if you believe the opposite of what they stand for?

You'd want to remain a member because - of the friendships you'd forged with other scouts, to go on activities and trips to build your life experiences, and to give back to the community you live in through charitable work etc. This is a social structure and an important one at that, to tell a kid he is not wanted, when he shows no such prejudice against those who do want to believe, is disappointing IMO.

[red states rule]

This is because conservatism is a serious disease that we are still seeking a cure for. We will be having a "Cure Conservatism" telethon soon. And we will be checking to see who watches and contributes.

and for years libs tagged the Boy Scouts as a "hate group". Based on the oath they take no wonder liberals are upset


On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my Country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.

[red states rule]

The ORIGINAL POST is a troll!! Get your head on straight! :slap:

Again GAbby shows off her tolerance. Anyone who dares to point out what liberals are actually saying is a "troll"

[jimnyc]

You'd want to remain a member because - of the friendships you'd forged with other scouts, to go on activities and trips to build your life experiences, and to give back to the community you live in through charitable work etc. This is a social structure and an important one at that, to tell a kid he is not wanted, when he shows no such prejudice against those who do want to believe, is disappointing IMO.

REMAIN - but then why join to begin with if you know you are at odds with their charter? And if someone CHANGES down the road - you mean to say that these types of clubs should then change their charter to follow the person who changed?

[Noir]

REMAIN - but then why join to begin with if you know you are at odds with their charter? And if someone CHANGES down the road - you mean to say that these types of clubs should then change their charter to follow the person who changed?

Most will going when they're like 6/7 years old, no? At an age when they'll just be accepting whatever they're being told to accept. I imagine that knowing the organisation you've spent years in service to, will want nothing to do with you, because you decide you're an atheist at 15.

I think the scouts should be for reasonable when it comes to freedom of and from religion. Not that they should care what I think.

[Voted4Reagan]

Most will going when they're like 6/7 years old, no? At an age when they'll just be accepting whatever they're being told to accept. I imagine that knowing the organisation you've spent years in service to, will want nothing to do with you, because you decide you're an atheist at 15.

I think the scouts should be for reasonable when it comes to freedom of and from religion. Not that they should care what I think.

The Boy Scouts are a Religious Based Organization...

If your beliefs change and you reject the concept or acceptance of religion you go against the very purpose of the organization.

Why would an Atheist wish to be a part of a Religious Organization?

[DragonStryk72]

Right so i 'get' (but don't accept as reasonable) the reasons behind the 'anti-gay' agenda for scouts. But theirs an anti-atheist component as well? How pathetic.

As a scout myself, there wasn't an issue with atheist scouts that I was aware of growing up. Truthfully, the organization was essentially secular until it got take over by the Mormon church somewhere after 1972. Prior to that, sexuality and individual religious beliefs were kept out of it, stating that leaders had no business in the boys' private lives. Yes, churches chartered scout groups, but then, so did schools, such as my elementary school.

Yes, Scout Law always included reverence as a part of it, being a respect for religious beliefs, their own as well as the beliefs of others.

[red states rule]

http://newsbusters.org/sites/default/files/imagecache/width336/cartoons/newscoutoath.jpg

[Tyr-Ziu Saxnot]

So the Boy Scouts caved and wil admit gays. Not good enough for liberal bimbo Saly Quinn Of course, it will not be satisfaction until the perverts are allowed orgies out in the open streets and innocent people are forced at gunpoint to participate! The nature of evil is that it knows no bounds and neither do liberal perverts. -Tyr

[red states rule]

Of course, it will not be satisfaction until the perverts are allowed orgies out in the open streets and innocent people are forced at gunpoint to participate! The nature of evil is that it knows no bounds and neither do liberal perverts. -Tyr

To people like Gabby and ZNoir, this is perfectly acceptable behaviour.


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[Voted4Reagan]

To people like Gabby and ZNoir, this is perfectly acceptable behaviour.



RSR... to me I wouldnt even care what any of those people are doing... It isn't my concern.

If thats how they are....so be it... it doesn't hurt you or me or anyone else on this planet.

Personally not my thing but I always believe in Live and Let Live...

[aboutime]

To people like Gabby and ZNoir, this is perfectly acceptable behaviour.


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red states rule. HOW in the world did you get permission from the CONGRESS members above to show their photo's here???

Is there an address at the Capitol building in Washington where CONGRESSIONAL PHOTOS are handed out?

The only Congress member photo I have so far is this....5113

[fj1200]

You'd want to remain a member because - of the friendships you'd forged with other scouts, to go on activities and trips to build your life experiences, and to give back to the community you live in through charitable work etc. This is a social structure and an important one at that, to tell a kid he is not wanted, when he shows no such prejudice against those who do want to believe, is disappointing IMO.

So what is the difference between the Boy Scouts and a church if one doesn't believe in God?

[jimnyc]

So what is the difference between the Boy Scouts and a church if one doesn't believe in God?

If you joined the Church at an early age, and enjoyed your time there, whether on Sunday or through various events, but later realized you didn't believe as much as you once did - would you remain a member? :)

[Voted4Reagan]

The Boy Scouts are a Religious Based Organization...

If your beliefs change and you reject the concept or acceptance of religion you go against the very purpose of the organization.

Why would an Atheist wish to be a part of a Religious Organization?

Still waiting for NOIR to reply to this....

[Noir]

Still waiting for NOIR to reply to this....

I had already answered this question in response
To a question from Jim.

You'd want to remain a member because - of the friendships you'd forged with other scouts, to go on activities and trips to build your life experiences, and to give back to the community you live in through charitable work etc. This is a social structure and an important one at that, to tell a kid he is not wanted, when he shows no such prejudice against those who do want to believe, is disappointing IMO.

[Noir]

As a scout myself, there wasn't an issue with atheist scouts that I was aware of growing up. Truthfully, the organization was essentially secular until it got take over by the Mormon church somewhere after 1972. Prior to that, sexuality and individual religious beliefs were kept out of it, stating that leaders had no business in the boys' private lives. Yes, churches chartered scout groups, but then, so did schools, such as my elementary school.

Yes, Scout Law always included reverence as a part of it, being a respect for religious beliefs, their own as well as the beliefs of others.

Most interesting, given this is not the impression you'd of got from some of the replies to this thread...

[jimnyc]

Most interesting, given this is not the impression you'd of got from some of the replies to this thread...

Their charter and bylaws predate 1972. :)

[Robert A Whit]

Somehow I skipped over this post. But it goes back over 100 years? Wow, and suddenly they should be forced to somehow change? Sorry, they are a private club and should be able to stay with their bylaws. The people coming in should decide if they can abide or not - one doesn't come in and then expect bylaws to change for their liking.

I was in the scouts and it was sponsored by the Mormon Church. I was talking to my grandson who is a Scout and his troop is sponsored by a homeowners association. Having God play his role in the boys life does no harm to them. We had a homosexual scout who some of us decided to torment. I did not know homos were not allowed and i never told the Scoutmaster how he was. He also was a few years older than I was.

[Robert A Whit]

I plan to ask some Elder in the mormon church about the claim our church now runs the Scouts. My grandson is a scout and his troop is sponsored by a homeowners association per my daughter. His dad never would join the mormon Church and goes to church most weekends.

As a boy, my troop was sponsored by the Mormon church but the scouts in the troop were not forced to be Church members. I too never heard anything said in Scout meetings about religion nor about homosexuals. At the time I figured they could belong because I know for a fact a boy older than i was is a homosexual.

[Voted4Reagan]

I had already answered this question in response
To a question from Jim.

To be an Atheist and willingly be a member of a Religious Organization is a most profound Hypocrisy...

It's a complete Paradox... A true Atheist would leave the scouts if his Atheistic Views were strong.

Likewise he violates the scout Oath and Code ... an atheist has NO Beliefs.. The prime motivator is a Belief in God or a single creator regardless of faith.

Since Atheists always say theirs is a system of NON-BELIEF.... so be it.... You are not scout material.

Scouting puts FAITH as it's defining principle.

You cant have it both ways NOIR...

[BillyBob]

Johnny has a problem. If he says he is an atheist, he will have to quit and never be able to have anything to do with Scouting again. So, he pretends to believe in God. When he says the oath, he mumbles the part about duty to God and just says country. He lives a lie.



Maybe he should consider quitting the Boy Scouts and joining the Circus [or the democrat party] instead.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I plan to ask some Elder in the mormon church about the claim our church now runs the Scouts. My grandson is a scout and his troop is sponsored by a homeowners association per my daughter. His dad never would join the mormon Church and goes to church most weekends.

As a boy, my troop was sponsored by the Mormon church but the scouts in the troop were not forced to be Church members. I too never heard anything said in Scout meetings about religion nor about homosexuals. At the time I figured they could belong because I know for a fact a boy older than i was is a homosexual.

The Mormon Church is the single largest charter organization in the BSA program. But you are finally correct about something... they do not RUN the BSA. Period.

[red states rule]

http://www.lolhome.com/img_big/funny-picture-1081491093.jpg

[Noir]

Their charter and bylaws predate 1972. :)

Having a charter, and following the charter are not the same thing.

[Noir]

To be an Atheist and willingly be a member of a Religious Organization is a most profound Hypocrisy... It's a complete Paradox... A true Atheist would leave the scouts if his Atheistic Views were strong. Likewise he violates the scout Oath and Code ... an atheist has NO Beliefs.. The prime motivator is a Belief in God or a single creator regardless of faith. Since Atheists always say theirs is a system of NON-BELIEF.... so be it.... You are not scout material. Scouting puts FAITH as it's defining principle. You cant have it both ways NOIR...

So as an atheist in a Christian school, was I too committing 'a most profound hypocrisy'?
You'd also be amazed to know that as an atheist i went on christian outings and activities.

[Abbey Marie]

Its pathetic because you will inevitably end up in the situation were someone who has been involved in the scouts for years loses faith. They then have to choose whether they want to tell the truth, and be forced out of the scouting community, or they have to lie. That'd be a pretty though break to force on a teenager IMO.

Although it seems from a scouting perspective, that they would rather you became a Muslim than an atheist. Because no atheist could be the 'best kind of citizen'

If losing his faith suddenly turns Fred so against the possibility of a Supreme Being, that he shudders to think that someone might actually suspect he still believes- he shouldn't have too much trouble leaving and finding a group that shares his belief in... nothing. I think you are being very dramatic here.

[Abbey Marie]

Outside PetSmart this weekend was a Scout doing his Eagle Scout project. He gave customers a list of items very much needed by our local Humane Society and asked if they would buy one or more and donate. I was so happy to see this. And then I thought- if boys like this quit scouting because it becomes an uncomfortable place for them, what a shame it will be. I'd like to ask the guys here- would you have left scouting if you had openly gay scouts? Or leaders? And would you take your son out?

[jimnyc]

Having a charter, and following the charter are not the same thing.

I believe they mostly did follow their charter, until more and more and more people are complaining. Regardless, as a private organization, they are free to do as they please. They take an oath when they join, and if one cannot live up to that oath, whether at the time or down the road - then they shouldn't be a member anyway.


"On my honor, I will do my best, to do my duty, to God and my country, to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, and to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight."

[tailfins]

The Scouts have a heavily Mormon influence. I don't see a point in making them something they are not. Some or perhaps even most of the secular principles the Mormons teach are useful. I would send my sons after having a talk about "you might meet people who don't believe like we do".


Outside PetSmart this weekend was a Scout doing his Eagle Scout project. He gave customers a list of items very much needed by our local Humane Society and asked if they would buy one or more and donate. I was so happy to see this. And then I thought- if boys like this quit scouting because it becomes an uncomfortable place for them, what a shame it will be. I'd like to ask the guys here- would you have left scouting if you had openly gay scouts? Or leaders? And would you take your son out?

In a word: No. I teach my sons to openly face whatever the world might throw at them. There's also the idea of "take help where you can get it". The tipping point would be imposed "tolerance". If it became an uptight, walk-on-eggshells environment, that would be the deal breaker for me. Influence by ambulance chasers would be just as bad if not worse, feminizing the Scouts because the participants "might get injured". We don't need a public school atmosphere in the Scouts.

[tailfins]

So as an atheist in a Christian school, was I too committing 'a most profound hypocrisy'?
You'd also be amazed to know that as an atheist i went on christian outings and activities.

Nothing amazing there. I sometimes attend Amish worship, but I don't ride around in a horse and buggy except for recreation.

[Noir]

Outside PetSmart this weekend was a Scout doing his Eagle Scout project. He gave customers a list of items very much needed by our local Humane Society and asked if they would buy one or more and donate. I was so happy to see this. And then I thought- if boys like this quit scouting because it becomes an uncomfortable place for them, what a shame it will be. I'd like to ask the guys here- would you have left scouting if you had openly gay scouts? Or leaders? And would you take your son out?

How exactly do you know that kid will not grow to be gay/bisexual etc?
If it so happens that he does, would it still be a shame when he is forced out?

In any case, the kid will almost certainly have gay classmates, and later on work colleges.

[Noir]

If losing his faith suddenly turns Fred so against the possibility of a Supreme Being, that he shudders to think that someone might actually suspect he still believes- he shouldn't have too much trouble leaving and finding a group that shares his belief in... nothing. I think you are being very dramatic here.

The point about not wanted others to know is because of the knowledge that Fred would be forced out of his social group and activities.

[Voted4Reagan]

So as an atheist in a Christian school, was I too committing 'a most profound hypocrisy'?
You'd also be amazed to know that as an atheist i went on christian outings and activities.

yes...you were...

But the point is this... Why if you are such a profound disbeliever in Religion would you want to be in a Religious School?

Inherently you reject all principles of the School you are attending.

Why not just go to a secular public school?

You are still trying to have it both ways NOIR.... and you cant.

[tailfins]

yes...you were...

But the point is this... Why if you are such a profound disbeliever in Religion would you want to be in a Religious School?

Inherently you reject all principles of the School you are attending.

Why not just go to a secular public school?

You are still trying to have it both ways NOIR.... and you cant.

He can learn ABOUT something without becoming that something.

[Robert A Whit]

Outside PetSmart this weekend was a Scout doing his Eagle Scout project. He gave customers a list of items very much needed by our local Humane Society and asked if they would buy one or more and donate. I was so happy to see this. And then I thought- if boys like this quit scouting because it becomes an uncomfortable place for them, what a shame it will be. I'd like to ask the guys here- would you have left scouting if you had openly gay scouts? Or leaders? And would you take your son out?

In the early 50s, my troop had a homosexual boy scout. For a long time, I did not know it. When I found out, I told others but not the scoutmaster and we pranked this kid. We did it one weekend and did not do it again. I would not quit because of this one homosexual since he did not prance around making it clear he was one.

[Robert A Whit]

The Scouts have a heavily Mormon influence. I don't see a point in making them something they are not. Some or perhaps even most of the secular principles the Mormons teach are useful. I would send my sons after having a talk about "you might meet people who don't believe like we do".



In a word: No. I teach my sons to openly face whatever the world might throw at them. There's also the idea of "take help where you can get it". The tipping point would be imposed "tolerance". If it became an uptight, walk-on-eggshells environment, that would be the deal breaker for me. Influence by ambulance chasers would be just as bad if not worse, feminizing the Scouts because the participants "might get injured". We don't need a public school atmosphere in the Scouts.

Actual church influence on boy scouts.

Sorry but the file will not allow me to show it.

Check boyscouts at Wikipedia where a chart shows the percentages of the various churches as to supporting boy scouts. For instance Catholics have a very large share.

[jimnyc]

Actual church influence on boy scouts.

Sorry but the file will not allow me to show it.

Check boyscouts at Wikipedia where a chart shows the percentages of the various churches as to supporting boy scouts. For instance Catholics have a very large share.


<caption>Top 10 Chartered Organizations associated with the Boy Scouts of America, by Total Youth[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#cite_note-77)</caption> <thead>
Name of Organization
Total Units
Total Youth

</thead><tbody>
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints)
37882
420977


United Methodist Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church)
11078
371491


Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church)
8570
283642


Parent-teacher groups other than PTAs
3712
153214


Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_%28U.S.A.%29)
3663
127931


Lutheranism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism)
3902
119701


Groups of Citizens
3445
106852


Baptists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists)
4099
109298


Private schools
2837
101563


Parent-Teacher Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent-Teacher_Association)/Parent Teacher Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent_Teacher_Organization)
1661
69812

</tbody>

[fj1200]

Outside PetSmart this weekend was a Scout doing his Eagle Scout project. He gave customers a list of items very much needed by our local Humane Society and asked if they would buy one or more and donate. I was so happy to see this. And then I thought- if boys like this quit scouting because it becomes an uncomfortable place for them, what a shame it will be. I'd like to ask the guys here- would you have left scouting if you had openly gay scouts? Or leaders? And would you take your son out?

I have a hard time believing that the Scouts would ban someone from participating unless they were vocal in their atheism or being gay; but I have little involvement with Scouts so I could certainly be wrong.

And the second part; it hasn't kept us from changing churches or schools or neighborhoods.

[Noir]

yes...you were... But the point is this... Why if you are such a profound disbeliever in Religion would you want to be in a Religious School? Inherently you reject all principles of the School you are attending. Why not just go to a secular public school? You are still trying to have it both ways NOIR.... and you cant.

I did go to a public school, but every school here is a religious school, daily prayers and bible readings, mandatory Christian education until your 17, and weekly 'Personal and social education' which was almost always christian based.

Because of this almost all school trips and society's had a christian element.

Sadly we don't have freedom from religion here, and even though i'm atheist my job opportunities are more limited here due to my religious upbringing. Fun times eh? ^,^;

However, in saying that - i was never excluded from any group or activity. Somehow i was able to partake, develop, and help exactly the same as my Christian classmates. What a shame the scouts don't seem to be so accepting.

[jimnyc]

I did go to a public school, but every school here is a religious school, daily prayers and bible readings, mandatory Christian education until your 18, and weekly 'Personal and social education' which was almost always christian based.

Move to Afghanistan or Pakistan or Egypt, or Iraq or Iran... your Christian issues will mostly be solved. :)

[BillyBob]

I'd like to ask the guys here- would you have left scouting if you had openly gay scouts? Or leaders?

Probably.



And would you take your son out?


Gay leaders? In a hearbeat. And you know that's the goal here.

Why can't private organizations remain fag-free if they choose? More importantly, why do libs feel the need to ruin everything for everybody by removing liberty and free choice?

Back to the Boy Scouts. I read that the BSoA voted to allow openly gay boys into the Scouts. I assume this was an act of bowing to pressure but maybe....just maybe something good will come to a couple of these gay kids by being surrounded by good, moral, normal [straight] boys. I'd like to think so, anyway.....

[Marcus Aurelius]

Probably.





Gay leaders? In a hearbeat. And you know that's the goal here.

Why can't private organizations remain fag-free if they choose? More importantly, why do libs feel the need to ruin everything for everybody by removing liberty and free choice?

Back to the Boy Scouts. I read that the BSoA voted to allow openly gay boys into the Scouts. I assume this was an act of bowing to pressure but maybe....just maybe something good will come to a couple of these gay kids by being surrounded by good, moral, normal [straight] boys. I'd like to think so, anyway.....

naw... that wasn't a homophobic rant at all (rolleyes)

[Noir]

Move to Afghanistan or Pakistan or Egypt, or Iraq or Iran... your Christian issues will mostly be solved. :)

Given the problem is a lack of secularism, that isn't really and answer to any question posed...

[Voted4Reagan]

What a shame the scouts don't seem to be so accepting.

They don't have to be.... They were founded as a Faith Based organization. You are expected to earn your religious medal.

Since you dont have a religion... you cant complete the requirements.

Look at this Eagle Scouts Uniform...


http://ncronline.org/sites/default/files/styles/article_slideshow/public/stories/images/scouts.jpg?itok=qCdELYRL

[Noir]

They don't have to be.... They were founded as a Faith Based organization. You are expected to earn your religious medal. Since you dont have a religion... you cant complete the requirements. Look at this Eagle Scouts Uniform...

Of course they don't have to be, but just because you don't have to do something, doesn't mean that not doing it should be accepted and welcomed.

[Voted4Reagan]

Of course they don't have to be, but just because you don't have to do something, doesn't mean that not doing it should be accepted and welcomed.

So by your reasoning I should be allowed to join a Country Club that has as it's main requirement that all members be Jewish when in Fact I am Catholic.

is that right??

[Marcus Aurelius]

They don't have to be.... They were founded as a Faith Based organization. You are expected to earn your religious medal.

Since you dont have a religion... you cant complete the requirements.

Look at this Eagle Scouts Uniform...


http://ncronline.org/sites/default/files/styles/article_slideshow/public/stories/images/scouts.jpg?itok=qCdELYRL

it's even harder for adult in Scouting to earn their religious emblem. We don't have to earn it the way the Scouts themselves do... someone has to put us in for it. I guess we do 'earn' it, in the sense that if we didn't we wouldn't be put in for it.

[Abbey Marie]

Having a charter, and following the charter are not the same thing.
Sounds just like how liberals feel about the US Constitution...

[Abbey Marie]

I have a hard time believing that the Scouts would ban someone from participating unless they were vocal in their atheism or being gay; but I have little involvement with Scouts so I could certainly be wrong.

And the second part; it hasn't kept us from changing churches or schools or neighborhoods.

I would assume the bolded to be true as well. The problem seems to be more that such groups are trying to change the Scouts. As for feeling the need to leave because of the new policy, I suppose it is more the overnight camping than meetings. For me, I would probably have no problem with anyone joining so long as they don't try to then change what the Scouts stand for (the oath, etc.). Join the group for what it is and accept that; not what you want to change it to be. But given the predilection of gays to take positions that give them close access to children (coaching, teaching, priesthood, for example), I would be against gay troop leaders.

[Robert A Whit]

<tbody>
Name of Organization
Total Units
Total Youth


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints)
37882
420977


United Methodist Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Methodist_Church)
11078
371491


Catholic Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church)
8570
283642


Parent-teacher groups other than PTAs
3712
153214


Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_%28U.S.A.%29)
3663
127931


Lutheranism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism)
3902
119701


Groups of Citizens
3445
106852


Baptists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptists)
4099
109298


Private schools
2837
101563


Parent-Teacher Association (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent-Teacher_Association)/Parent Teacher Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parent_Teacher_Organization)
1661
69812

</tbody>


The boy scouts do so much good for this and other countries that the Mormons really do support them. But the chart proves other religions also support them. I forget what church has the leader but a Mormon is on the board of directors.

[Marcus Aurelius]

http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by fj1200 http://www.debatepolicy.com/images/debate_policy/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.debatepolicy.com/showthread.php?p=645863#post645863)
I have a hard time believing that the Scouts would ban someone from participating unless they were vocal in their atheism or being gay; but I have little involvement with Scouts so I could certainly be wrong.

And the second part; it hasn't kept us from changing churches or schools or neighborhoods.




I would assume the bolded to be true as well. The problem seems to be more that such groups are trying to change the Scouts. As for feeling the need to leave because of the new policy, I suppose it is more the overnight camping than meetings. For me, I would probably have no problem with anyone joining so long as they don't try to then change what the Scouts stand for (the oath, etc.). Join the group for what it is and accept that; not what you want to change it to be. But given the predilection of gays to take positions that give them close access to children (coaching, teaching, priesthood, for example), I would be against gay troop leaders.

Some people are afraid allowing gay scouts means there will be a sudden rise in gay sex on outings, etc. It's ridiculous. There is NO sexual activity allowed in scouting, period. Gay, straight, bi, animal, whatever. It is not allowed, and is grounds for removal from Scouting.

[Voted4Reagan]

The Scout Oath:

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.


To be a scout you actually have to believe in the Scout Oath and it's Principles... ALL OF THEM.

An Atheist cant be true to the Oath.

Also..

THE SCOUT LAW:

A Scout is:


Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

[Abbey Marie]

Some people are afraid allowing gay scouts means there will be a sudden rise in gay sex on outings, etc. It's ridiculous. There is NO sexual activity allowed in scouting, period. Gay, straight, bi, animal, whatever. It is not allowed, and is grounds for removal from Scouting.

There is no sex allowed in church either, yet when a gay man is in a position of authority, things just seem to happen.

[red states rule]

There is no sex allowed in church either, yet when a gay man is in a position of authority, things just seem to happen.

Abbey, if terrorists want to destroy this country they better hurry

We seem to be beating them to it

[fj1200]

There is no sex allowed in church either, yet when a gay man is in a position of authority, things just seem to happen.

Is it your contention that sex only happens in church when a gay man is in a position of authority?

[Abbey Marie]

Is it your contention that sex only happens in church when a gay man is in a position of authority?

It has been my position for years on this board that when (male) priests have sex with boys, they are de facto gay priests. That is the scandal that everyone has heard of. If you are implying that there are hetero priests having sex with adult women, that may well be, but it's not pedophilia, so not a concern to me.

[red states rule]

The Scout Oath:

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.


To be a scout you actually have to believe in the Scout Oath and it's Principles... ALL OF THEM.

An Atheist cant be true to the Oath.

Also..

THE SCOUT LAW:

A Scout is:


Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.



This must be one of the reasons the left has tagged the Boy Scouts a "hate group"

[fj1200]

It has been my position for years on this board that when (male) priests have sex with boys, they are de facto gay priests. That is the scandal that everyone has heard of. If you are implying that there are hetero priests having sex with adult women, that may well be, but it's not pedophilia, so not a concern to me.

I'd be concerned whenever 1, there is pedophilia, 2. there is an abuse of one's position, 3. there is irreverence to a house of worship, etc. but I don't presume to convict all gay men in a position of authority. I'm more concerned when someone acts contrary to what is expected/presented (i.e. an asexual priest) than someone who does not.

[Kathianne]

I'd be concerned whenever 1, there is pedophilia, 2. there is an abuse of one's position, 3. there is irreverence to a house of worship, etc. but I don't presume to convict all gay men in a position of authority. I'm more concerned when someone acts contrary to what is expected/presented (i.e. an asexual priest) than someone who does not.

and thumpers can sleep well, knowing beyond a doubt that their ministers aren't pedophiles or in any way abusing their authority.

Of course if they are, that puts paid on the whole idea of their being Christians. Right? Their leaders, their sins. Want me to find a few examples of the many?

[fj1200]

and thumpers can sleep well, knowing beyond a doubt that their ministers aren't pedophiles or in any way abusing their authority.

Of course if they are, that puts paid on the whole idea of their being Christians. Right? Their leaders, their sins. Want me to find a few examples of the many?

There was no anti-catholic sentiment in my post.

[Kathianne]

There was no anti-catholic sentiment in my post.

Whatever, you began from Abbey's post on priests. The assumption is self-evident.

[fj1200]

Whatever, you began from Abbey's post on priests. The assumption is self-evident.

With all due respect I didn't start that and haven't been anti-catholic here, or anywhere.

[Kathianne]

With all due respect I didn't start that and haven't been anti-catholic here, or anywhere.

Then you should be more discerning on whom you post off of. Benefit of doubt, this was the first time I saw the linkage, I'll take you at your word.

[fj1200]

Then you should be more discerning on whom you post off of. Benefit of doubt, this was the first time I saw the linkage, I'll take you at your word.

:confused: Not sure why that matters, religion was not central to my point.